NationStates Jolt Archive

I go to an all-boys catholic high school (no, we're not all gay) and the school sponsors the 'pro-life' club. Most of its members incidentally support the death penalty but I won't go there.

Me and a few friends decided to start a pro-choice club. We put up a table and made flyers, handed out slips of paper saying I support the right of women to choose their own reproductive destiny and had people who wanted them sign them.

The school administration came and shut us down. Now, we can't set anything up, can't hold meetings, and can't hold debates with the pro-life people. I like this system, reminds me of the Nazis for some reason. :rolleyes:

Thats because you're at a shitty all boys catholic school.

I went to the an all boys catholic high school as well, so I feel I know enough to ask, Well what did you think was going to happen? Its a freaking catholic school. You can't as much write an english paper supporting abortion, let alone start a pro choice club. You probably should have known that going in, and consider yourselves lucky you didn't get suspended/expelled. I'm not kidding either, because they could.

Yes, it is biased, but no, there is nothing wrong with it. You are attending a CATHOLIC SCHOOL. The unqulified position of the Catholic Church is pro-life.

What did you expect?

I am pro-choice and an advocate of unrestricted academic freedom, but a private religious institution has a right to set its own policies. You have the right to take your educational business elsewhere if you disagree.

That's what happens when you attend a religious school. You don't have the first amendment rights that you would have if you attended a public school.

If it makes you feel any better, I'll give you 500 meaningless points for effort. :)

Shrugs, well as a private entity there's no reason why the school cant be biased.

What makes me shake my head, is the fact that an educational institution is being run by people who apparently lack anything that even resembles good sense.

That's okay, those pro-life people will probably get their arses handed to them at university.

a private religious institution has a right to set its own policies. You have the right to take your educational business elsewhere if you disagree.
This is what I love about America. I can disagree fundamentally with Ogiek on the issues, but the core, this statement I have quoted, I agree completely with. The wonderful thing about freedom of speech, religion and enterprise.

jsut go and interrupt the other group with drive by arguments, like get some roller skates and skate in and yell "i disagree", then skate off

that sucks. can't you argue freedom of speech?
and hook me up with some of those meaningless points. :cool:

jsut go and interrupt the other group with drive by arguments, like get some roller skates and skate in and yell "i disagree", then skate off
And, struck by the forcefulness and truth of his argument, they'll all head down to the local NOW chapter and offer their services. I don't think that would help at all. I bet they'd love for you to offer to debate them, heck the school would probably go for it too, and you'd both learn something in the deal.

I just think its funny that an all boys school has a pro-life or pro-choice club at all. You're all boys. The issue applies to you quite a bit less than say, oh I dunno.. girls? :p

I go to an all-boys catholic high school (no, we're not all gay) and the school sponsors the 'pro-life' club. Most of its members incidentally support the death penalty but I won't go there.

Me and a few friends decided to start a pro-choice club. We put up a table and made flyers, handed out slips of paper saying I support the right of women to choose their own reproductive destiny and had people who wanted them sign them.

The school administration came and shut us down. Now, we can't set anything up, can't hold meetings, and can't hold debates with the pro-life people. I like this system, reminds me of the Nazis for some reason. :rolleyes:
hint: institutionalized religion and civilized, open debate are not often compatible. Catholicism doesn't exactly have a glowing history when it comes to allowing alternative view points to have a voice.

also, if you start educating Catholic school kids about reproductive issues then they might learn that the Catholic Church is currently distributing deliberate lies about the AIDS epidemic, and is directly contributing to millions of deaths world wide. it will be very hard for the nice little nuns to get on their moral high horse if students learn their church is intentionally spreading a plague and murdering innocent men, women, and children.

I mean, it is a *private* institution, so they aren't restricted by the same rules that control public schools. I mean, you attend there, if you are so diametrically opposed to it, then you can certainly try to leave.

I go to an all-boys catholic high school (no, we're not all gay) and the school sponsors the 'pro-life' club. Most of its members incidentally support the death penalty but I won't go there.

Me and a few friends decided to start a pro-choice club. We put up a table and made flyers, handed out slips of paper saying I support the right of women to choose their own reproductive destiny and had people who wanted them sign them.

The school administration came and shut us down. Now, we can't set anything up, can't hold meetings, and can't hold debates with the pro-life people. I like this system, reminds me of the Nazis for some reason. :rolleyes:

Fight it. Don't take it in the ass.

Fight it. Don't take it in the ass.
i will not make a priest joke. i will not make a priest joke. i will not make a priest joke. i will not make a priest joke....

Fight it. Don't take it in the ass.
He can't, all that would do is get him expelled.

i will not make a priest joke. i will not make a priest joke. i will not make a priest joke. i will not make a priest joke....

LMAO!!!

I went to a Catholic high school. We had a paedophile teacher as well. Stereotypes are even better when they're proven true.

I go to an all-boys catholic high school (no, we're not all gay) and the school sponsors the 'pro-life' club. Most of its members incidentally support the death penalty but I won't go there.

Me and a few friends decided to start a pro-choice club. We put up a table and made flyers, handed out slips of paper saying I support the right of women to choose their own reproductive destiny and had people who wanted them sign them.

The school administration came and shut us down. Now, we can't set anything up, can't hold meetings, and can't hold debates with the pro-life people. I like this system, reminds me of the Nazis for some reason. :rolleyes:
The catholic church DID side with the Nazis's at the start of WW2, up until the time it was apparent they weren't winning anyway.

my problem is the that the school claims to be progressive, open, and allowing of freedom and expression (within the dress code of course) yet they deliberatly block what they say they support.

Fight it. Don't take it in the ass.
Actually I think Blagarista already blew the best chance to do that...

I suppose it's still possible in theory, but I dont see much hope of success now...

It's a Catholic school, it shouldnt take much effort to realise that the odds of exactly what happened, happening, happened to be very good, excellent, in fact as someone who doesnt normatively gamble, I would have been much tempted to place a wager on exactly the outcome that Blargistania describes...

I dont think that you have to be Einstein or a prophet to work out that the actions taken were more likely to be counterproductive, than they were likely to be nuetral or productive, combined.

What? We weren't offensive, we didn't troll for members. We just went to the people who we knew were already pro-choice and asked them if they wanted a slip. We left anyone who didn't want one alone. We didn't crash the pro-life meetings and start yelling slogans.

We even were civil with the school. We had a meeting with the administration and campus activites coordinater and asked why we couldn't start a pro-choice club. They simply responded that the school wouldn't allow for one. That's basically a "NO! and I don't have to back it up qith reasons!" response.

I just think its funny that an all boys school has a pro-life or pro-choice club at all. You're all boys. The issue applies to you quite a bit less than say, oh I dunno.. girls? :p

I disagree. Someone of either sex can be aborted.

I disagree. Someone of either sex can be aborted.
but the vast majority of abortions occur to fetuses that are female (since all fetuses are female to begin with, and only become male when a certain cascade of changes occur later in the pregnancy, and most abortions occur before that stage of the pregnancy). so, technically, it still applies MORE to female than to males.

I go to an all-boys catholic high school (no, we're not all gay) and the school sponsors the 'pro-life' club. Most of its members incidentally support the death penalty but I won't go there.

Me and a few friends decided to start a pro-choice club. We put up a table and made flyers, handed out slips of paper saying I support the right of women to choose their own reproductive destiny and had people who wanted them sign them.

The school administration came and shut us down. Now, we can't set anything up, can't hold meetings, and can't hold debates with the pro-life people. I like this system, reminds me of the Nazis for some reason. :rolleyes:
I was there...I have good news, BLARG...
We can probably debate the pro-lifers. Soon. If the rest of the pro-choicers feel up to it. But yeah, it did suck hardcore to get shut down when the anti-choice folks got to keep their table, huge cross, and little fetus pictures (which, technically, they never did get school approval for). The reason is, of course, that the new bishop (Olmstead, for anyone who cares) is a total fascist on reproductive issues, and the administration doesn't want to risk incurring his wrath by sponsoring us.

I go to an all-boys catholic high school (no, we're not all gay) and the school sponsors the 'pro-life' club. Most of its members incidentally support the death penalty but I won't go there.

Me and a few friends decided to start a pro-choice club. We put up a table and made flyers, handed out slips of paper saying I support the right of women to choose their own reproductive destiny and had people who wanted them sign them.

The school administration came and shut us down. Now, we can't set anything up, can't hold meetings, and can't hold debates with the pro-life people. I like this system, reminds me of the Nazis for some reason. :rolleyes:

Honestly, if I were you, I'd refer them to the opening section of Aquinas' Summa Theologica, where he talks about how reason alone can eventually lead you to the Law, and point out that the Pro-Life club really ought to have no problem dealing with your club in debate if they are in fact on God's side. They might be able to ignore democratic provisions of the Constitution, but they can't very well ignore the philosophical underpinnings of their own church. . .well, okay, technically they can, but if they do then they'll look like jackasses in the process.

I was there...I have good news, BLARG...
We can probably debate the pro-lifers. Soon. If the rest of the pro-choicers feel up to it. But yeah, it did suck hardcore to get shut down when the anti-choice folks got to keep their table, huge cross, and little fetus pictures (which, technically, they never did get school approval for). The reason is, of course, that the new bishop (Olmstead, for anyone who cares) is a total fascist on reproductive issues, and the administration doesn't want to risk incurring his wrath by sponsoring us.

Well good. Maybe we can kick some ass in debate then. Did the pro-lifers ever get permission for their little slips of paper in the Regis hallway?

Honestly, if I were you, I'd refer them to the opening section of Aquinas' Summa Theologica, where he talks about how reason alone can eventually lead you to the Law, and point out that the Pro-Life club really ought to have no problem dealing with your club in debate if they are in fact on God's side. They might be able to ignore democratic provisions of the Constitution, but they can't very well ignore the philosophical underpinnings of their own church. . .well, okay, technically they can, but if they do then they'll look like jackasses in the process.

lol. I might have to look into that.

Congrats! I've taken time outta my day to come to you and say:

This Thread Sucks!
Have a wonderful day.

Congrats! I've taken time outta my day to come to you and say:

This Thread Sucks!
Have a wonderful day.
I feel special now. Thanks for letting me in on your personal time and a nicely alotted space in your obviously busy schedule. Please, feel free to come back in and comment whenever you feel likt. Especially when its as productive as the one you just made. Have a nice day.

-your friendly neighbourhood BLARGistania.

Huh. I go to a catholic high school, and they're remarkably tolerant of other beliefs. My religion and history teachers are cool with me debating them about religion. Hell, I even brought in a Bertrand Russel book (Why I am not a Christian printed on the front cover), and though it sparked a few heated discussions with classmates, the teachers ignored it.

Well good. Maybe we can kick some ass in debate then. Did the pro-lifers ever get permission for their little slips of paper in the Regis hallway?
Probably not...but you know the Admin is pretty much powerless to stop them. Most of the American Catholic church has its eye on the Phoenix archdiocese, and if they saw a Catholic school taking down pro-life stuff...bad things would happen. The Pope might implode, or some such thing.

Anyways, we meet Wednesday at break to discuss debates and whatnot...clear your schedule.


[threadhijack]
This is only related to the current topic insofar as it took place at school...
My Ethics teacher made a funny joke the other day..."Y'know, George Bush claims he's against gay marriage and unions, but all he ever talks about are his mandates!" (MAN-dates. get it?)
[/hijack]

I was (until I saw you had already replied) going to edit my post to say 'the pro-choice group that Blargistania describes', simply because reading it, it sounds like I am suggesting only you were involved, when the situation is more complex (and thus difficult to coordinate, maintain uniformity of approach) than it would be if the actions were all one person's.

What? We weren't offensive, we didn't troll for members.
That is not in this circumstance relevent. We are talking about what amounts to a religious organisation, and we are talking about a school, either of which alone gives one reason to consider that even if you behaved reasonably, if your actions were 'challenging' in the minds of the relevent authority, they would be 'poorly recieved' (to put it mildly). If you have good reason to believe that no matter how nicely, civilly and politely you go about something, if the relevent authority knows you are doing it, and has the power to stop it, they will stop it, then the fact that you did do it nicely, civilly and politely doesnt make it any more productive when what you should have expected would happen, does happen.

We just went to the people who we knew were already pro-choice and asked them if they wanted a slip. We left anyone who didn't want one alone. We didn't crash the pro-life meetings and start yelling slogans.
Aha, and did you genuninely believe that the school authority would be pleased about this? It's a Catholic school, ergo several premises are taken as being absolute unarguable fact;
sin is bad and must be eliminated, minimised as much as possible,
abortion is a sin,
advocating, endorsing and or not objecting to and actively fighting sin, is a sin.
Now the Catholic religion has no reputation of tolerating doctrine other than the current official 'company line', quite the opposite in fact, the same to a much lesser extreme can be said of schools generally, (yes there are exceptions, but mostly schools discourage outward challenges to the school's doctrines and policies). However polite you are about it, the Catholic attitude is not usually one of 'you do it your way, I'll do it mine', that's the whole point behind the 'excommunication' business, it's like expulsion for 'big kids' who wont tow the current official company line. The same is more often than not, true of schools. In my experiance many cant be made to listen to the concerns and discenting views of parents, much less students.

We even were civil with the school. We had a meeting with the administration and campus activites coordinater and asked why we couldn't start a pro-choice club. They simply responded that the school wouldn't allow for one. That's basically a "NO! and I don't have to back it up qith reasons!" response.
Well, as I am trying to point out, there was every reason to believe they would say no, and very little reason I can see, to believe they would say anything else. They are right, they dont have to back it up with reasons, and in fact unless they had good reasons that were not blatently and obviously going to engineer further discontent (ie 'we are catholics, it's a sin to advocate abortion rights' we dont allow organised sin in our school) amongst discenters, of course they were not going to provide a reason, and were likely to fall back on their right not to, as justification for this.

So far as I can see;
the school were likely to want to stop you if they could, if they knew what you were up to,
the school could stop you if they knew what you were up to,
you let the school know what you were up to.

The conclusion that I reach reviewing these facts, is that the outcome was entirely predictable.

(please note, that 'you' means all involved, not just Blargistania, it's just quicker to type 'you', than 'all those involved in organising the pro-choice group Blargistania refers to')

Well, look at the silver lining: your group's tribulations will actually help the Pro-Choice movement in the long run. Lacking any opposition within the school, the Pro-Life group will have no real access to intelligent debate. They will, lacking any necessity for backing up their arguments, become analytically weak, and when they're political views are challenged after high-school, they will be torn apart by those who actually have.... what's it called... an argument.

Ok look at it from the school's point of view for a second: if they allowed your club, they would very likely get schtick from Catholic parents and the diocese about 'endorsing' a viewpoint which is considered hugely immoral. Part of going to a Catholic school is that you get taught Catholic beliefs and values. Basically, a Catholic insitution cannot be seen to be endorsing, supporting or even allowing something so morally objectionable to them. From a Catholic perspective, you are starting a Murder Club, which I think (I hope!) would be challenged by most schools. If you ran a school, would you allow students to start a cop-killer club or a rapist club, even in the name of free speech? Even if most or all of the school administration were pro-choice, the school is owned and controlled by the Church, and a pro-choice club is roughly on par with that for the Church.

I don't think it's that the pro-lifers are afraid of debate, either; pro-lifers in Sinhue's thread here seem to be holding their own all right for the most part. It's that if you firmly believe something is very very wrong - murder, in fact - someone starting a club promoting it is just unacceptable, and in a private institution people can set whatever rules they like, more or less.

Ahh, gotta love the catholic church.
What do your parents think of this?
Are they pro-choice?
Would they move you to a different school if that's what you want?
The likelihood of your school changing it's mind is about nil.

Well, lets face it. If people ask questions, they figure religion is a pile of bullcrap, right?

That's what happens when you attend a religious school. You don't have the first amendment rights that you would have if you attended a public school.

Ha! You think you have first amendment rights at a public school? LOL!!!!!!!