NationStates Jolt Archive

Is it just me or does every topic discussed somehow end up about god. I was in a thread about star trek and it, of course, had to be brought around to god. I realize that everyone has different opinions but not every nice easy-going discussion has to turn into a massive religious debate. I was just wondering,how many of you feel the same way I do?

God is very angry with this thread.

But Satan is very pleased

Kernunnos wants some human sacrifices.

It's an extension of Godwin's Theory.

Just replace 'Nazis' with 'religion', and related terms.

Yes, I realise I'm claiming all religious threads are invalidated by this. I don't care :p

Kernunnos wants some human sacrifices.
Kernunwho?

I just feel like religion doesnt need to be a part of everything. A conversation about something childish does not need to bring up gods wish for man or reincarnation. Some things are better left for the right place and time. Religion is not the key to the universe (in my opinion) and therefore does not need to be in politics/ science/ or many other things, spongbob being one of them for those of you who know what I'm talking about.

Yeah, the cliche religious debates are getting boring

Kernunwho?
Kernunnos (http://members.tripod.com/Taliere/patron.html)

Star Trek isn't childish!

The fundies of all sides on this forum are on their toes because they are often attacked, and thus even a potential challenge scares them. Besides, religion is one of the few things its really possible to logically debate, even though logic is often said to not apply.

Star Trek isn't childish!
Ditto. :eek:

Star Trek isn't childish!
No, but I am.

Star Trek isn't childish!

Maybe!

But to believe in God(s) is!

I'm sorry, I by no means meant to say that Star Trek is childish, I am definately a trekkie. I should have tried to word that definately, I just meant it wasnt a conversation about anything that should bring about a religious discussion but you always have those religious fantaics that'll talk about it anyway, possibly for lack of anything else to say as they've been brainwashed to never think for themselves.

To talk about gods. I found this in a Danish website, and I think it is a good explanation of, why there can be no higher beings.

I quote:

"The Atheist Soapbox
Introduction

Christians consider the existence of their God to be an obvious truth. This assumption is false, not only because evidence for the existence of this presumably ubiquitous yet invisible God is lacking, but because the very nature Christians attribute to this God is self-contradictory.
Proving a universal negative
Many Christians, as well as atheists, claim that it is impossible to prove a universal negative. For example, while we may not have evidence that unicorns or dragons exist, we cannot prove that they do not exist. Unless we have a complete knowledge of the universe, we must admit the possibility that somewhere in the universe, there might be such creatures.
But the claim that omniscience is needed to prove a universal negative presumes that the concept which we are discussing is logically coherent. If the attributes which we assign to a hypothetical object or being are self-contradictory, then we can conclude that it cannot exist, and therefore does not exist. I do not need a complete knowledge of the universe to prove that cubic spheres do not exist. Such objects have mutually-exclusive attributes which make their existence impossible. A cube, by definition, has 8 corners, while a sphere has none. These properties are completely incompatible -- they cannot be held simultaneously by the same object.
I intend to show that the supposed properties of the Christian God Yahweh, like those of a cubic sphere, are incompatible, and by so doing, to demonstrate that Yahweh's existence is an impossibility.
Defining YHWH
Christians have endowed their God with all of the following attributes: He is eternal, all-powerful, and created everything. He created all the laws of nature and can change anything by an act of will. He is all-good, all-loving, and perfectly just. He is a personal God who experiences all of the emotions a human does. He is all-knowing. He sees everything past and future.
God's creation was originally perfect, but humans, by disobeying him, brought imperfection into the world. Humans are evil and sinful, and must suffer in this world because of their sinfulness. God gives humans the opportunity to accept forgiveness for their sin, and all who do will be rewarded with eternal bliss in heaven, but while they are on earth, they must suffer for his sake. All humans who choose not to accept this forgiveness must go to hell and be tormented for eternity.
These attributes of God are related by the Bible, which Christians believe to be the perfect and true Word of God.
One verse which many Christians are fond of quoting says that atheists are fools. I intend to show that the above concepts of God are completely incompatible, and reveal the impossibility of all of them being held simultaneously by the same being. There is no foolishness in denying the impossible. Foolishness is worshipping an impossible God.
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Perfection seeks even more perfection
What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely?
God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete -- it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing the elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.
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Perfection begets imperfection
But, for the sake of argument, let's continue. Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God's image and had the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.
What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans.
The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot make itself imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.
The Freewill Argument
The Christians' objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.
Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.
Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.
Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?
The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.
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All-good God knowingly creates future suffering
God is omniscient. When he created the universe, he saw the sufferings which humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans. He heard the screams of the damned. Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born (in fact, the Bible says this very thing), and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.
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Infinite punishment for finite sins
God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely injust. The absurdity of this infinite punishment appears even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of the human's imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible.
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Belief more important than action
Consider all of the people who live in the remote regions of the world who have never even heard the "gospel" of Jesus Christ. Consider the people who have naturally adhered to the religion of their parents and nation as they had been taught to do since birth. If we are to believe the Christians, all of these people will perish in the eternal fire for not believing in Jesus. It does not matter how just, kind, and generous they have been with their fellow humans during their lifetime: if they do not accept the gospel of Jesus, they are condemned. No just God would ever judge a man by his beliefs rather than his actions.
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Perfection's imperfect revelation
The Bible is supposedly God's perfect Word. It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell. How wonderful and kind of this God to provide us with this means for overcoming the problems for which he is ultimately responsible! The all-powerful God could have, by a mere act of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure, but instead, in his infinite wisdom, he has opted to offer this indecipherable amalgam of books called the Bible as a means for avoiding the hell which he has prepared for us. The perfect God has decided to reveal his wishes in this imperfect work, written in the imperfect language of imperfect man, translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, and related by imperfect man. No two men will ever agree what this perfect word of God is supposed to mean, since much of it is either self- contradictory, or obscured by enigma. And yet the perfect God expects the imperfect humans to understand this paradoxical riddle using the imperfect minds with which he has equipped us. Surely the all-wise and all-powerful God would have known that it would have been better to reveal his perfect will directly to each of us, rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man.
Contradictory justice
One need look to no source other than the Bible to discover its imperfections, for it contradicts itself and thus exposes its own imperfection. It contradicts itself on matters of justice, for the same just God who assures his people that sons shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers turns around and destroys an entire household for the sin of one man (he had stolen some of Yahweh's war loot). It was this same Yahweh who afflicted thousands of his innocent people with plague and death to punish their evil king David for taking a census (?!). It was this same Yahweh who allowed the humans to slaughter his son because the perfect Yahweh had botched his own creation. Consider how many have been stoned, burned, slaughtered, raped, and enslaved because of Yahweh's skewed sense of justice. The blood of innocent babies is on the perfect, just, compassionate hands of Yahweh.
Contradictory history
The Bible contradicts itself on matters of history. A person who reads and compares the contents of the Bible will be confused about exactly who Esau's wives were, whether Timnah was a concubine or a son, and whether Jesus' earthly lineage is through Solomon or his brother Nathan. These are but a few of hundreds of documented historical contradictions. If the Bible cannot confirm itself in mundane earthly matters, how are we to trust it on moral and spiritual matters?
Unfulfilled prophecy
The Bible misinterprets its own prophecies. Read Isaiah 7 and compare it with Matthew 1 to find but one of many misinterpreted prophecies of which Christians are either passively or willfully ignorant. The sign given by Isaiah to King Ahaz was meant to assure him that his enemies King Rezin and King Remaliah would be defeated. The prophecy was fulfilled in the very next chapter. Yet Matthew 1 not only misinterprets the word for "maiden" as "virgin," but claims that this already-fulfilled prophecy is fulfilled by the virgin birth of Jesus!
The fulfillment of prophecy in the Bible is cited as proof of its divine inspiration, and yet here is but one major example of a prophecy whose intended meaning has been and continues to be twisted to support subsequent absurd and false doctrines. There are no ends to which the credulous will not go to support their feeble beliefs in the face of compelling evidence against them.
The Bible is imperfect. It only takes one imperfection to destroy the supposed perfection of this alleged Word of God. Many have been found. A perfect God who reveals his perfect will in an imperfect book is impossible.
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The Omniscient changes the future
A God who knows the future is powerless to change it. An omniscient God who is all-powerful and freewilled is impossible.
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The Omniscient is surprised
A God who knows everything cannot have emotions. The Bible says that God experiences all of the emotions of humans, including anger, sadness, and happiness. We humans experience emotions as a result of new knowledge. A man who had formerly been ignorant of his wife's infidelity will experience the emotions of anger and sadness only after he has learned what had previously been hidden. In contrast, the omniscient God is ignorant of nothing. Nothing is hidden from him, nothing new may be revealed to him, so there is no gained knowledge to which he may react emotionally.
We humans experience anger and frustration when something is wrong which we cannot fix. The perfect, omnipotent God, however, can fix anything. Humans experience longing for things we lack. The perfect God lacks nothing. An omniscient, omnipotent, and perfect God who experiences emotion is impossible.
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The conclusion of the matter
I have offered arguments for the impossibility, and thus the non- existence, of the Christian God Yahweh. No reasonable and free thinking individual can accept the existence of a being whose nature is as contradictory as that of Yahweh, the "perfect" creator of our imperfect universe. The existence of Yahweh is as impossible as the existence of cubic spheres or invisible pink unicorns.
While believers may find comfort in being faithful to impossibilities, there is no greater satisfaction than a clear mind. You may choose to serve an impossible God. I will choose reality.

Hmmmmm....whoever wrote that has obviously never studied Christianity very closely, as it is filled with false assumptions and weak arguments...however...since this thread was started talking about every other thread turning into a religious debate... i won't start

The Star Trek universe is not childish. It is more properly seen as an allegory of the "real world".

Some creationists that respond to your questions, do so as a result of their understanding of the cosmos.

No one has been brain washed. That particular condition is a problem of perception.

This reply is a result of reading through the first page of this particular thread. ;)

While believers may find comfort in being faithful to impossibilities, there is no greater satisfaction than a clear mind. You may choose to serve an impossible God. I will choose reality.

It is that very choice to not acknowledge reality that gives religious individuals their faith.

It is also why I refer to religious faith as voluntary schizophrenia.

I like you Grevinden. You should look at my weblog. I think you would like the revisions I made to the Ten Commandments (as written by an atheist).

It is that very choice to not acknowledge reality that gives religious individuals their faith.

It is also why I refer to religious faith as voluntary schizophrenia.

I like you Grevinden. You should look at my weblog. I think you would like the revisions I made to the Ten Commandments (as written by an atheist).

I agree for the most part except that I dont view it as impossible, just unproven.

To talk about gods. I found this in a Danish website, and I think it is a good explanation of, why there can be no higher beings.

That doesn't rule out other higher beings. Just the god defined from the bible.

You guys do realize that by debating religion on this thread you are proving it right, right? So you agree that a bunch of idiots always trun non-religious threads into secular ones. That means you agree you're all idiots. Cool.

The Heretical Monks have pondered upon the significance of the question, "Is it just me or does every topic discussed somehow end up about god?"

They have decided that, at least for themselves, every topic discussed starts with God and somehow ends up about secular matters.

Their collective penances shall be to forfeit 30 indulgences and to submit to an extra three hours of work in the communal gardens, gauging the magnitude of .... magnolias.

So sayeth the Heretics.

You guys do realize that by debating religion on this thread you are proving it right, right? So you agree that a bunch of idiots always trun non-religious threads into secular ones. That means you agree you're all idiots. Cool.

Secular == nonreligious.

You guys do realize that by debating religion on this thread you are proving it right, right? So you agree that a bunch of idiots always trun non-religious threads into secular ones. That means you agree you're all idiots. Cool.
No size for you.

Seriously, WTF?

You guys do realize that by debating religion on this thread you are proving it right, right? So you agree that a bunch of idiots always trun non-religious threads into secular ones. That means you agree you're all idiots. Cool.

This topic was intended to talk about religion, whereas the topics I was reffering to started out about completely random things and all ended up at religion. There's a difference between talking about the topic, and changing the topic to suit yourself. Also, I think I speak on everyone's behalf when I say that your comment made you sound like more of any idiot than we do. Thank you and good day. :)

I have a hard time believing in God, after 56 years of getting the heavenly equivalent of the answering machine every time I "call". I suppose he COULD exist, or perhaps be on vacation at the moment. Of course, as the bible says that "a day of the Lord is as a thousand years" (this is an appoximate quote), his vacation may be what's behind all our problems. Or maybe he just retired and left the business to Junior. Who knows? :p

Is it just me or does every topic discussed somehow end up about god. I was in a thread about star trek and it, of course, had to be brought around to god. I realize that everyone has different opinions but not every nice easy-going discussion has to turn into a massive religious debate. I was just wondering,how many of you feel the same way I do?

Everything comes back to God because we all know that what you believe in this area is important... more important than star trek...

That doesn't rule out other higher beings. Just the god defined from the bible.

Well, for me it goes for all other higher - and lower - beings too.

For me to see, they are nearly the same result of poor knowledge of how the world is working. But now we should know better than this old trying to explain the unexplainable.

Now we know!

Jerry

NB: English is not my language, so sorry if I am not good spelling it right.