NationStates Jolt Archive

I found this on the inter net, a ten year old boy wrote it. (Does he even remember september eleven?)
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Forever Free

How Washington took a stand.

How the men at Gettysburg fought hand to hand.

How Lincoln freed the slaves from that time on.

How Johnson didn’t want to hear the word Vietnam.

How JFK died so young.

How the battle for freedom had just begun.

How Ronald Reagan took down the Berlin Wall.

How the attack on the pentagon shocked us all.

How the Towers fell on 9/11.

How that day felt like Armageddon.

How Bush said "Terrorist, we will not falter or fail."

How we fought so Afghan women took take off their vail.

How we have freed Iraq.

How the insurgents want it back.

How we fight for freedom, we will not cave.

How we will forever fight for the Home of the Brave.

that poem is wildly inaccurate

Propoganda...

that poem is wildly inaccurate
how so (keep in mind this was done by a child)

It's a crap poem. I don't care who wrote it. And I don't care if it is patriotic, I refuse to have my emotions manipulated by an ad hominem appeal. Either a poem is good, or it isn't, and hiding behind your age or circumstances don't help.

would've been better if I had not interrupted every three lines with myself looking at hot naked women.

*ahem*

Anyway, yeah. At the age of 10 you are very heavily influenced by any and all propaganda. I would know.

I hate kids...

Sorry to be harsh to him, but ... kid, but your poem's a load of rubbish - you're too naive and not cynical enough to realise that all you've heard from the media is propaganda.
That said, what's the obsession with patriotism? I don't understand it at all. The "you're either with us or against us" mentality is ridiculous and completely intolerant of people's rights to have their own opinions, even if you don't agree with the majority of the rest of your brainwashed country.

Sorry to be harsh to him, but ... kid, but your poem's a load of rubbish - you're too naive and not cynical enough to realise that all you've heard from the American media is propaganda.
That said, what's the American obsession with patriotism? I don't understand it at all. The "you're either with us or against us" mentality is ridiculous and completely intolerant of people's rights to have their own opinions, even if you don't agree with the majority of the rest of your brainwashed country.Americans aren't the only ones. In fact, I don't even think Americans are the worst in this respect.

Sorry to be harsh to him, but ... kid, but your poem's a load of rubbish - you're too naive and not cynical enough to realise that all you've heard from the media is propaganda.
That said, what's the obsession with patriotism? I don't understand it at all. The "you're either with us or against us" mentality is ridiculous and completely intolerant of people's rights to have their own opinions, even if you don't agree with the majority of the rest of your brainwashed country.


Um.......i dont ... think the kid plays nationstates so........who are you talking to?

I think that this poem is wonderful. I myself, being American, am patriotic.

Well the poem itself isn't that good, I applaud the meaning behind it and hope the kid isn't corrupted by the immoral liberals pervading this thread. Hats off to him.

Good patriotic poem. It's true and it shows of even 10 year olds care. It is not propaganda, it is a creation of patriotism. Forever the Free, Piss on the EUrinal (http://www.nicedoggie.net) btw the EU is for well the EU.

*sigh* for the most part. i like kids. but some want a little more attention than others. and this kid wants it. he really ought to have a parent monitor his internet use. as for the poem itself.. he doesnt know enough to understand the word 'patriotism'

How Johnson didn’t want to hear the word Vietnam.

Spare me. :rolleyes:

The chances of a ten year old knowing of most of those things is slim to none. In all likelihood its some poem someone wrote and then tacked on a story to it and sent it around the internet, just like a good deal of other rumors that fly around.

That aside, I don't see anything in it that’s false, but its not exactly a persuasive piece.

The chances of a ten year old knowing of most of those things is slim to none.
Or you know....not every 10 year old is naive....

Well, waht's he talking about on the whole Vietnam thing?

How Ronald Reagan took down the Berlin Wall.

Really? Did he do it single-handedly? Did he use a hammer?

I coulda sworn the people of Berlin took that one down...

Really? Did he do it single-handedly? Did he use a hammer?

I coulda sworn the people of Berlin took that one down...

lol

Or you know....not every 10 year old is naive....

Right let me go out and poll 10 random 10 year olds on the Berlin Wall, Vietnam, JFK and some others and see which ones know of any of them... :rolleyes:

Partiatism is evil.

Partiatism is evil.
Assuming you meant "patriotism", wow that was spoken like a Canuck.

Assuming you meant "patriotism", wow that was spoken like a Canuck.

^.^ Sorry, I'm tired. My spelling isn't that bad, eh! Wow, beautiful colours in thoes vapours! <.>

Oh, and I'm choosing not to take the "Canuck" reference as an insult.

It wasn't the most wildly accurate thing on the planet, but it's a poem written by a ten year old, not a dissertation on the history and current actions of the United States.

It seems that whenever someone posts 'America is good', at least five people manage to jump on the thread screaming and yelling about Iraq, Afghanistan, death tolls and Agent Orange. Why? Why is it that pride in a nation in which a person lives is seen as naive or foolish, if said nation is the United States?

Granted, I don't support every decision made by a US president since the founding of the nation, but I don't feel the need to rant and rave about Cuba, Guantanamo Bay whenever I see a positive view of the US.

There are so many over cynical jerks on NS its unbelievable. Kudos to the kid... how would you like to be a 10 year old who puts his heart on the line to show a little creativity and patriotism then get mocked by a bunch of loser mouse jockeys over it. Get a life.............

I don't care who wrote it, kids like this* are the problem of the future. They're* the kinds of people who become suicide bombers, who kill people who are "enemies" in wars, they're* the enemy.

*I.E. People who are partiotic. Period. No matter what it's for, it's unacceptable.

A "country" is nothing but lines on a map or a fence/barrier (man-made or natural) around a piece of land. All are equal.

I don't care who wrote it, kids like this* are the problem of the future. They're* the kinds of people who become suicide bombers, who kill people who are "enemies" in wars, they're* the enemy.

*I.E. People who are partiotic. Period. No matter what it's for, it's unacceptable.

A "country" is nothing but lines on a map or a fence/barrier (man-made or natural) around a piece of land. All are equal.
You are a freaking moron, oh and refer again to my last post

There are so many over cynical jerks on NS its unbelievable. Kudos to the kid... how would you like to be a 10 year old who puts his heart on the line to show a little creativity and patriotism then get mocked by a bunch of loser mouse jockeys over it. Get a life.............
*coughcough*

Anyway. Apparently its only when people decide to kill others that its called 'patriotism'. Ever wondered why America was based on protest and criticism of the government?

Well, based on what Patrick Henry wanted the founders to include, I'd say a good deal of what makes Americans patriotic is their ability to stand up and say 'I don't agree'. I would consider that more patriotic than picking up a gun and yelling 'agree with me or die!' type thing.

So, other than the general idea behind the poem, I still find it a little to believe a 10 year old could understand that much of history and create it in rhyme and rythmn. I have an 11 year old sister and she, as well as her friends, have no where near this comprehension of history.

*coughcough*

Anyway. Apparently its only when people decide to kill others that its called 'patriotism'. Ever wondered why America was based on protest and criticism of the government?

Well, based on what Patrick Henry wanted the founders to include, I'd say a good deal of what makes Americans patriotic is their ability to stand up and say 'I don't agree'. I would consider that more patriotic than picking up a gun and yelling 'agree with me or die!' type thing.

So, other than the general idea behind the poem, I still find it a little to believe a 10 year old could understand that much of history and create it in rhyme and rythmn. I have an 11 year old sister and she, as well as her friends, have no where near this comprehension of history.
I was not insulting everyone, they know who they are..

Patriotism has nothing to do with killing, its about having pride and loving your country.

Blessed Assurance and Gurguvungunit hit the nail on the head.

oh, and to all of you saying what's naive and popeganda, stop treating your opinions like facts.

HAHAHA i was 11 on sept 11 2001 and i was the same as this kid, a compasionate, bush-loving "proud to be" of sorts. Now at 15 as I see more and more truth and less and less Fox news, i see that i was in the wrong, and would probably be sitting across the street from the white house right now waiting with a rifle if it werent for my religion. anyway, the fact that this kid knows so much at his age already tells me that in a few years when he becomes rightfully learned, he'll be a powerful ally to the oposing cause

Blessed Assurance and Gurguvungunit hit the nail on the head.

oh, and to all of you saying what's naive and popeganda, stop treating your opinions like facts.
*shock* but aren't they?

This kid has some good things about American Patriotism and some bad things. He goes over Washington and Lincoln but kinda stops there. His other points have more to do with social history than any sort of patriotism. Its like he (or she) went over the best known figures in US history and made a commonly held point about them.

Patriotic- not really. At least for me.

And as for the idea of patriotism. Loving your country, okay, fine. Do it. Love your nation. But, you can love a nation too much. Extreme patriotism (often known as nationalism) is what got us the Nazis, the fundamentalist governments in the mid-east that we like to complain about. Those and just about every war in the history of man. Personally, I think this 'my nation is better than yours' thing has to stop.

Um.......i dont ... think the kid plays nationstates so........who are you talking to?
I know the kid probably doesn't play nationstates - that's why I edited my post, to make it clear that I thought the person I'm talking about is absent.


And which other countries rival America for misguided patriotism? I thought America was top of the list ...

And as for the idea of patriotism. Loving your country, okay, fine. Do it. Love your nation. But, you can love a nation too much. Extreme patriotism (often known as nationalism) is what got us the Nazis, the fundamentalist governments in the mid-east that we like to complain about. Those and just about every war in the history of man. Personally, I think this 'my nation is better than yours' thing has to stop.
Feeling as though you belong to a country or place is good - it's yours, and you take an interest in its well-being. However, some people take this idea way too far - when you express criticism of commonly held ideals in your country, or don't support national sporting heroes, or criticise governmental policy, you're called "unpatriotic" and in rare cases, a "traitor".
My nation isn't better than anyone else's. I like it here, but not enough to degrade people from other countries.

HAHAHA i was 11 on sept 11 2001 and i was the same as this kid, a compasionate, bush-loving "proud to be" of sorts. Now at 15 as I see more and more truth and less and less Fox news, i see that i was in the wrong, and would probably be sitting across the street from the white house right now waiting with a rifle if it werent for my religion. anyway, the fact that this kid knows so much at his age already tells me that in a few years when he becomes rightfully learned, he'll be a powerful ally to the oposing cause

I know you are only 15, but since you said you wanted to shoot my president, I'm gonna let you have it. 1 What does foxnews have to do with this poem? 2 Whats wrong with having compassion? 3 What's wrong with having pride? 4 What's wrong with your freaking brain? :confused:

You have already spewed more propoganda than the kid who wrote the poem.

Feeling as though you belong to a country or place is good - it's yours, and you take an interest in its well-being. However, some people take this idea way too far - when you express criticism of commonly held ideals in your country, or don't support national sporting heroes, or criticise governmental policy, you're called "unpatriotic" and in rare cases, a "traitor".
My nation isn't better than anyone else's. I like it here, but not enough to degrade people from other countries.
What people did the poem degrade? Also if you dont think were better off here, then go check out haiti, hope you dont mind tripping over dead bodies.

Actually, because I'm a cruel cynical jerk who's had way too much caffine, I'm going to disect this poem!

Just to make it clear before we begin: I'm not anti-American, but I beleve patriotism is evil, Nationalism is evil, and that since a country is nothing but a boundary on paper, that there's nothing at all woth fighting or dying for or protecting. To quote myself, "I'd rather live under an opressive, totalitarian leader than to not live at all."

Now, I shall begin.



1. How Washington took a stand.

Trator to the British. And not just in the "you don't support our national 'heroes'" way (i.e. American nationalism.)

2. How the men at Gettysburg fought hand to hand.

As above: trators to Britain.

3. How Lincoln freed the slaves from that time on.

This is actually a good thing, but it's not like the US started it. Romans were freeing slaves 2000 years ago. And plus, they took the slaves in the first place!

4. How Johnson didn’t want to hear the word Vietnam.

Because it was an unjust war, like Iraq.

5. How JFK died so young.

He wasn't that young, but besides that, he was pushing for US superiority with the space program. Though it did acomplish so much for society, the original aim of the space program was to "beat" the Russians, which is nationalism through and through.

6. How the battle for freedom had just begun.

American "freedom" is not freedom. It's a burden on all thoes who live under it. Democracy doesn't work if you think about it logically. If 50.1% of people vote yes on something, then it passes. Well, what about the other 49.9%! They get the stick.

7. How Ronald Reagan took down the Berlin Wall.

He didn't take it down, it colapsed by itself. And Reagan sucked anyways.

8. How the attack on the pentagon shocked us all.

Everyone expected it (at least thoes who actually keep informed about foreign affairs), though it didn't teach the US to stay the fuck out of everyone elses buisness, maybe the next one will.

9. How the Towers fell on 9/11.

As above.

10. How that day felt like Armageddon.

Only to Americans. I personally thought "about time".

11. How Bush said "Terrorist, we will not falter or fail."

And now he's become the greatest terrorist of all. That's my new name for Bush: the Terrorist.

12. How we fought so Afghan women took take off their vail.

But yet, many still want to wear it. As above, stay the fuck out of other countries buisness, especially if it's in their culture. What Americans did there is like having some random people from another country invade and tell you "baseball [or insert any sport/American cultural distinction] is oppressive and 'evil' to our culture; it must be banned", then they congratulate themselves by saying they "freed" you. It's BS.

13. How we have freed Iraq.

No, we installed a corrupt puppet regime after invading a soverign country. Can anyone say "Hitler 'freeing' Austria"*?

*Note: I am not comparing Bush to Hitler, just saying that their motivations for invading are the same.

14. How the insurgents want it back.

As any American (c'mon, admit it!) would if a foreign country invaded you!

15. How we fight for freedom, we will not cave.

You fight for "freedom" (See, there's that word being misused again!) by invading soverign countries, by killing and imprisoning elected leaders**, by installing puppets? That's not freedom, that's American "freedom".

** Yes, Saddam rigged elections, yada yada yada, but so did Bush.

16. How we will forever fight for the Home of the Brave.

Yes, it's the home of the "brave" who has the world by the balls and is killing it slowly, who goes and invades countries (twice) without reason, who supports terrorism, who has enough of a nuclear arsenal to destroy the world countless times and isn't disarming***, the list goes on.

*** Now, this is where the Americans say "well, other countries [N. Korea, Pakistan, India, etc.] are building them...". Well no shit! But it's only because America did first! If the US never build massive amounts of nuclear weapons, other countries wouldn't feel so threatened that they'd have to make them too.

See, now that I've completely killed a 10-year-old's partiotism, I feel better. And I really do.

Please make it known that I do not care what you say, my ideas and political stance will not change. If you wish to point out errors in my evidence, please do so. But simply flaming me, telling me I'm an idiot, etc. I don't care about. Fuck you too.

I'm not anti-American, i'm anti-Partiotism and anti-Nationalism, as well as anti-Fanatical Idiot. Thanks.

I'm now going to bed, goodnight.

And I've already warned myself for flamebait, no need for the mods to do it too.

I know you are only 15, but since you said you wanted to shoot my president, I'm gonna let you have it. 1 What does foxnews have to do with this poem? 2 Whats wrong with having compassion? 3 What's wrong with having pride? 4 What's wrong with your freaking brain? :confused:

You have already spewed more propoganda than the kid who wrote the poem.

Wow, he actually did.

I wouldn't sit outside his window with a rifle! I'd fight him democratically.

Takuma..

If youd rather live under a totalitarian ruler than not live at all, then you are a hopeless coward and should really count your blessings. Thank god that there are brave people who are willing to give their lives for your sorry a$$ to enjoy freedom.

please forgive me for being so vehement, but I am very passionate about this

Takuma..

If youd rather live under a totalitarian ruler than not live at all, then you are a hopeless coward and should really count your blessings. Thank god that there are brave people are willing to give their lives for your sorry a$$ to enjoy freedom.

My quote is actually wrong given this situation. The correct one is as follows:

"I'd rather live in a world with a dictator on the other side of the ocean than die 'for my country' fighting him, not to gain anything myself."

I appreciate WWII veterans, they were fighting a good cause.
[line removed: I wouldn't, I still have respect for them]

And I would rather live under a totalitarian ruler than not at all. Any life is better than no life. If you think otherwise, you don't diserve to waste my oxygen. (Nothing personal)

please forgive me for being so vehement, but I am very passionate about this

That's Ok, I'm the same only for the other side. :p

8. How the attack on the pentagon shocked us all.

Everyone expected it (at least thoes who actually keep informed about foreign affairs), though it didn't teach the US to stay the fuck out of everyone elses buisness, maybe the next one will.

9. How the Towers fell on 9/11.

As above.

Outside the laundry, in a little campground, near Baird Bay in South Australia, Australia- my parents were talking to some strangers about politics.

Mum was going on passionately that morning about how America was askin for trouble. How they put their noses in every other countries business and manipulate them. How one day, out of hatred, one of these countries was going to get there revenge on America.

During that conversation- my sister came bolting out of our campervan yelling 'You'll never guess what just happened to America!!!' We all rushed into our little campavan, watched the news and watched the Twin Towers fall.

As much as we were pissed off with America's interference with other nations- noone deserved to die. We were all watching the news, crying and screaming as the towers started to fall.

I'll never be angry at the people. I'll only be angry with the people who caused such death and let these people do their deeds *cough*AmericanGovernment*cough*.

We expected America to be targeted. Most people did! We just never knew it was going to be so horrendous!

how so (keep in mind this was done by a child)



lol. Well...I guess it's a perfect portrayal of the niceties public education buffers the truth with.

Oh wait. I guess thats just gettin' all the lil kiddies to love america if they omit all the shitty things that are going on through all that.

Either way. The only thing that makes that propaganda is that a "10 year old" wrote it.


Awww...that little kid shows us how much faith we should have in our Ape of a president...*sniff* how cute....

Outside the laundry, in a little campground, near Baird Bay in South Australia, Australia- my parents were talking to some strangers about politics.

Mum was going on passionately that morning about how America was askin for trouble. How they put their noses in every other countries business and manipulate them. How one day, out of hatred, one of these countries was going to get there revenge on America.

During that conversation- my sister came bolting out of our campervan yelling 'You'll never guess what just happened to America!!!' We all rushed into our little campavan, watched the news and watched the Twin Towers fall.

As much as we were pissed off with America's interference with other nations- noone deserved to die. We were all watching the news, crying and screaming as the towers started to fall.

I'll never be angry at the people. I'll only be angry with the people who caused such death and let these people do their deeds *cough*AmericanGovernment*cough*.

We expected America to be targeted. Most people did! We just never knew it was going to be so horrendous!

I agree. Civilians did not diserve to die. The average American is not the problem, it's the politicians. But still, the point was not made, and because of that, all thoes sacrificed are in vain.

I know you are only 15, but since you said you wanted to shoot my president, I'm gonna let you have it. 1 What does foxnews have to do with this poem? 2 Whats wrong with having compassion? 3 What's wrong with having pride? 4 What's wrong with your freaking brain? :confused:

You have already spewed more propoganda than the kid who wrote the poem.

Didnt mean to offend anyone, here we go:

I dont want to kill bush, it was an extreme exageration to show my disapproval of him and his administration.

1. the fox news thing was a joke, referrig to how ultra conservative they are. sometimes i think a 10 year old runs that channel

2. nothing is wrong with being passionate, about certain things

3. Having pride in being an american is useless because we didnt do shit to deserve to be born here, it just happened. i suppose a better slogan for those kinds of people would be "Lucky to be an American"

4. i have been in a very spastic state of mind ever since Party of Five was cancelled

hope that clears things up for you

Sleep....needed.....

Goodnight people, I'll be back tommorow!

Until then, play nice!

What is patriotism anyway. I don't fight for my country, I fight for the ideal that my country represents. If my country fails to represent that ideal, than as John Locke says, I rebel and try to overthrow it, not fight for it.

Patriotism is simply propaganda used by leaders to get people emotional. People should only fight if they truly believe in their country, and then it isn't for their country it is for them, selfish, not patriotic.

I'm american, but I despise patriotism. Just because I live inside imaginary borders and use printed paper to purchase stuff dosen't mean I'm patriotic. i am a citizen of planet earth first and formost. America was founded by terrorists. Sure, we call them revolutionaries but if the revolutonary war was fought today U.S. would still call them revolutionaries but to the rest of the world they'd be terrorists. How Suadi Arabia has probaly the most oppresive regime in terms of human rights yet they are U.S.'s biggest ally. Every national border is bullshit. There should be one United government for the entire planet. (Besides, that's the only way to join the federation of planets he he). Also, America had it's own genocidal program against the native americans. Milions of them died at the hands of American troops and at benovolent policies. The Native Americans are still treated like 2nd class citizens here. Sinch the U.S. had it's own genocidal program that no other country stopped how can we go around being "liberators" now? How America was allowed to use and develop weapons of mass destruction even though we are still the only country to date to use them in wartime.

And which other countries rival America for misguided patriotism? I thought America was top of the list ...China.

Only because they're taught to sing songs with lyrics "I love Chairman Mao, Chairman Mao is my friend" in school :p
Then again, schoolkids in America have to recite the Pledge of Allegiance every morning.
We Australians have it easy. Lots of us can't even remember the words to the national anthem.

4. i have been in a very spastic state of mind ever since Party of Five was cancelled
:D How long ago was that? :p

I think that this poem is wonderful. I myself, being American, am patriotic.
And of course everyone who isn't American is just unpatriotic and unamerican and communist.

I myself, being an Australian, believe that patriotism isn't the blind following of a lying idiot who believes that there will be "terriers holding our nations hostile", but rather doing what's best for your people.

On the topic of idiotic patriotism, french fries come from Belgium, and the word "french" actually refers to the method of their cooking - they are frenched. Has nothing to do with France.
But, hey - why not freedom kissing? Or freedom horns? Or Freedom Polynesia? Hey! How about some freedom cricket, while we drink some wine we imported from... uh... freedom?

That said, what's the obsession with patriotism? I don't understand it at all. The "you're either with us or against us" mentality is ridiculous and completely intolerant of people's rights to have their own opinions, even if you don't agree with the majority of the rest of your brainwashed country.
what he said.

What is patriotism anyway. I don't fight for my country, I fight for the ideal that my country represents. If my country fails to represent that ideal, than as John Locke says, I rebel and try to overthrow it, not fight for it.

Patriotism is simply propaganda used by leaders to get people emotional. People should only fight if they truly believe in their country, and then it isn't for their country it is for them, selfish, not patriotic.


I will tell you what patriotism is my friend, its pretty simple you actually mention it in your own post. Patriotism is those who willingly offer all they are to the country, who bleed for the flag and DIE for that flag. To me when I look at the American Flag the red stripes do not represent the colonies, it represents the blood of the sons and indeed now the daughters who serve their country of whom I am a proud member.

But we must not forget that patriotism is also found in those who as your say fight for the ideal the country represents. Soldiers do that too, but so do lobbyists, politicians, and the same protestors who burn the flag I love so much, and I would stop any who would infringe upon that right. Our nation is greater then any symbol such as the flag. Our nations ideals are represented in the Declaration and constitution, that is what any patriot believes in and that is what all patriots soldier and protest alike bleed for.

It is true that most people are blind for they have not suffered or sacrificed or feel the emotion for the country. They are a mindless horde that walks through the desert following men like Michael Moore or Rush to the promised oasis, salvation. However after they arrive and find the oasis dry they drink the sand, because they do not know any better or because they like it. People like to be told what’s right and what is wrong.

Patriots are the ones who do what they know is right for the country even if people would spit upon them because they were a uniform, or because they are burning the flag in protest.

Partriots are the brave few who try when others would hide.

would've been better if I had not interrupted every three lines with myself looking at hot naked women.

*ahem*

Anyway, yeah. At the age of 10 you are very heavily influenced by any and all propaganda. I would know.
Ya, when I was 11 I thought I would vote for Bush senior in the upcoming election if I was old enough to vote. After two years I thought he was pure evil, but now I realize that leaves no word to describe his son.

My reply to this load of bullsh*t:

All you "patriotic Americans" who think "patriotism" means being a dumb, brainwashed, obedient little drone who goes along with anything the Great Beloved Leader and his corporate puppeteers say, can take your perverted Nazi-esque notion of "freedom" and stick it where the sun don't shine!

Blessed will be the day when the American Empire will fall.

My reply to this load of bullsh*t:

All you "patriotic Americans" who think "patriotism" means being a dumb, brainwashed, obedient little drone who goes along with anything the Great Beloved Leader and his corporate puppeteers say, can take your perverted Nazi-esque notion of "freedom" and stick it where the sun don't shine!

Blessed will be the day when the American Empire will fall.

*applause* I'm just too nice and respectful to say that out loud.

Good patriotic poem. It's true and it shows of even 10 year olds care. It is not propaganda, it is a creation of patriotism. Forever the Free, Piss on the EUrinal (http://www.nicedoggie.net) btw the EU is for well the EU.
And people wonder why i find jingoism repulsive. :rolleyes:
Sorry, but are you that kind of loser who cant be proud of everything else because you never achieved anything on you own?

bump

Actually, because I'm a cruel cynical jerk who's had way too much caffine, I'm going to disect this poem!

Just to make it clear before we begin: I'm not anti-American, but I beleve patriotism is evil, Nationalism is evil, and that since a country is nothing but a boundary on paper, that there's nothing at all woth fighting or dying for or protecting. To quote myself, "I'd rather live under an opressive, totalitarian leader than to not live at all."

Now, I shall begin.



See, now that I've completely killed a 10-year-old's partiotism, I feel better. And I really do.

Please make it known that I do not care what you say, my ideas and political stance will not change. If you wish to point out errors in my evidence, please do so. But simply flaming me, telling me I'm an idiot, etc. I don't care about. Fuck you too.

I'm not anti-American, i'm anti-Partiotism and anti-Nationalism, as well as anti-Fanatical Idiot. Thanks.

I'm now going to bed, goodnight.

And I've already warned myself for flamebait, no need for the mods to do it too.

Proof that Canada needs to be invaded and conquered by the good'ol USA.

bump

tra la la la la

I'd say stop bumping useless, mindless drivel...

But this IS the General Forum.

I'm with Helennia and Takuma. pride in ones country is silly as borders between countries are mainly arbitrary creations, particularly in the post colonial world. They serve only to divide us and distract us from the reality that we are one humanity.

I read an interesting article on how the word "un-Australian" is basically a political tool used to turn the public against someone/something. WTF does un-Australian mean anyway?

But Hel, remember having to salute the flag at assembly? It made me want to barf...

A paraphrasing from Mark Twain;

"Patriotism means to support your country always, but your government when it deserves it."

I love USA.

This administration deserves not my support.

I love Ukraine.

That administration deserves it better.

"Patritotism is the last refuge of a scoundral."-Samuel Johnston
sorry if someone already wrote that I couldn't be bothered to read everything. The poem sucks, I don't know what ten year old could come up with "Johnson who didn't want to hear the word vietnam" or whatever it was.

Now at 15 as I see more and more truth and less and less Fox news, i see that i was in the wrong, and would probably be sitting across the street from the white house right now waiting with a rifle if it werent for my religion.

What is this truth that you now know? Just curious? Please think and write clearly and use some examples.

This next part is for everyone.

You know, I could write a well thought out reply to all of you who despise patriotism and America. But I won't because as I look at a lot of these replies on lots of threads, most people out there seem to hate the US and what it stands for and have no room in their life for any rational discussion and only want to spew out crap that makes them feel better.

I'm with Helennia and Takuma. pride in ones country is silly as borders between countries are mainly arbitrary creations, particularly in the post colonial world. They serve only to divide us and distract us from the reality that we are one humanity.

I read an interesting article on how the word "un-Australian" is basically a political tool used to turn the public against someone/something. WTF does un-Australian mean anyway?

But Hel, remember having to salute the flag at assembly? It made me want to barf...
Preebles! :D

Helen's Definition of un-Australian:

If you don't support Lleyton Hewitt at the Australian Open, you're un-Australian.
If you don't watch AFL, rubgy (union or league), and call soccer "football" (believe me, I've been called un-Australian for this), then you're un-Australian.
If you think turning away the Tampa was cruel and unnecessary, you're un-Australian.
If you don't agree with the new ASIO legislation, think it's a load of bollocks, and seriously wonder whether we'll have any freedom left in ten years, you're un-Australian.

Maybe this is why I think patriotism is over-rated.

Saluting the Australian flag, gah. At least we don't have to recite the Pledge of Allegiance every morning. And why did we never sing the verses of the Australian anthem that say "we welcome all to our shores"?

You know, I could write a well thought out reply to all of you who despise patriotism and America. But I won't because as I look at a lot of these replies on lots of threads, most people out there seem to hate the US and what it stands for and have no room in their life for any rational discussion and only want to spew out crap that makes them feel better.
Don't get me wrong - I have no issues with patriotism. Normal, run-of-the-mill "I like my country" patiotism. It's when it's taken too far: the "you're either with us or against us" mentality, degrading someone because they don't share your over-zealous love for your country, or even being moved to tears by a ten-year old's poem. That's a little excessive for me.

I like patriotism, like alcohol and religion, in moderation - Helennia reminds you to patriotise responsibly. :p

Patriotism is those who willingly offer all they are to the country, who bleed for the flag and DIE for that flag. To me when I look at the American Flag the red stripes do not represent the colonies, it represents the blood of the sons and indeed now the daughters who serve their country of whom I am a proud member.
On the flipside:

Patriotism is those who willingly offer all they are to the country, who make others bleed for the flag and DIE for that flag. To me, when I look at the American Flag the red stripes do not represent the colonies, it represents the blood of the sons and indeed now daughters of other nations who got in the way of the US - of which I am not a proud member (or a member at all).

It's a crap poem. I don't care who wrote it. And I don't care if it is patriotic, I refuse to have my emotions manipulated by an ad hominem appeal. Either a poem is good, or it isn't, and hiding behind your age or circumstances don't help.


You sir, have no idea what you are talking about. I can think back to when I was 10, I didnt know shit!

Perhaps you people need to look at just what me are bickering about... After all, If you read "The Sword of Truth" series by Terry Goodkind, Kids can be very powerfull if used correctly. So, why don't you guys (and gals, if any) try to use kids to write Anti-political or propoganda statements? After all, My Great-Uncle Gerbles once said, and people still quote him by it, "Tell a lie enough times and it becomes truth." :sniper:

I'm american, but I despise patriotism. Just because I live inside imaginary borders and use printed paper to purchase stuff dosen't mean I'm patriotic. i am a citizen of planet earth first and formost. America was founded by terrorists. Sure, we call them revolutionaries but if the revolutonary war was fought today U.S. would still call them revolutionaries but to the rest of the world they'd be terrorists. How Suadi Arabia has probaly the most oppresive regime in terms of human rights yet they are U.S.'s biggest ally. Every national border is bullshit. There should be one United government for the entire planet. (Besides, that's the only way to join the federation of planets he he). Also, America had it's own genocidal program against the native americans. Milions of them died at the hands of American troops and at benovolent policies. The Native Americans are still treated like 2nd class citizens here. Sinch the U.S. had it's own genocidal program that no other country stopped how can we go around being "liberators" now? How America was allowed to use and develop weapons of mass destruction even though we are still the only country to date to use them in wartime.

No Native Americans arent treated like Second Class Citizens, they dont have to pay taxes if they dont want to.

No Native Americans arent treated like Second Class Citizens, they dont have to pay taxes if they dont want to.

Just to Clarify that, they do have to pay taxes, but the IRS cant look at their income, so they are allowed to lie to the IRS and say they make a small amount and only give them a little tax.

Atleast I know who's side I am on. I don't worry about Patriotism, because I really am not one. I hear so many meaning of the word that I truthfully do not know the meaning of the word. Besides, name ONE country that has not had a hand in a mass murder. Name ONE nation that hasn't been in a war. Name ONE nation. To hell with governments! Just do what is right. Vernon Johns said it the best: "If you don't have a reason to live, you don't have a reason to live. :gundge: "

My nation of Helennia has never been in a war :)
Yet.
Anyone wanna take me on? My country's supposedly extremely patriotic - that means you could have to deal with hordes of Queen-yodelling infantry armed with knitting needles, since I just outlawed guns.

I think I would give my child a smack on the bottom for writing that.

My heart swells with pride. There is hope for the new generation of patriotic Americans. (Everyone should see the Mel Gibson movie The Patriot). Americans have not forgotten there are eternal virtues and values worth fighting for.

My heart swells with pride. There is hope for the new generation of patriotic Americans. (Everyone should see the Mel Gibson movie The Patriot). Americans have not forgotten there are eternal virtues and values worth fighting for.
Well. I'm guessing you voted for option 1.
Personally I voted for 3 because I thought he was too young to know better.
I take the perspective that the values worth fighting for need to be fought on a global scale, not just as Americans.

Well. I'm guessing you voted for option 1.
Personally I voted for 3 because I thought he was too young to know better.
I take the perspective that the values worth fighting for need to be fought on a global scale, not just as Americans.

Sure. If I were Australian, I would be a very patriotic Australian, holding to the same values I hold now. I would hope there are young children in Australia being raised with the same sort of patriotic fever this 10 yr old American has.

Sure. If I were Australian, I would be a very patriotic Australian, holding to the same values I hold now. I would hope there are young children in Australia being raised with the same sort of patriotic fever this 10 yr old American has.
You're joking right?

My heart swells with pride. There is hope for the new generation of patriotic Americans. (Everyone should see the Mel Gibson movie The Patriot). Americans have not forgotten there are eternal virtues and values worth fighting for.

Oh, what a wonderful film! So very accurate and true! Ooo, those evil Redcoats! *shivers with indignation*

I hate pattriotism. :mad:
I hate children. :mad:

BURN!

Sure. If I were Australian, I would be a very patriotic Australian, holding to the same values I hold now. I would hope there are young children in Australia being raised with the same sort of patriotic fever this 10 yr old American has.
If this kid was Australian he would be the kid sitting in a corner in a library with his puffy and thick glasses and postuerpedic shoes. Ha!

America's patriotism is so distubring. It's as if they are covering shame by being over patriotic, like when someone acts too innocent when something is broken. It's like the world is a big vase and "America definately wasn't running through the hall all day and didn't even come out of his room because America would never break a vase because we're great". Get me?

American patriotism just seems down right ignorant sometimes.

*Tear*

That just might replace "America the Beautiful." :)

I went with option 3.
He's just a kid.

Well, talking about patriotism, I am not patriotic at all, as I am German, and we don't know the meaning of that word in connection with Germany, thanks Hitler :sniper: . The only thing we relate this to are (US) Americans.
I experienced American Patriotism first hand, when I spent a year at an high school in the metro Atlanta area, commonly called the bible belt. I went to a game Atlanta Braves vs. New York Yankees (hope I didn't mixed it up with the Mets, as I'm not interested in sports at all, except local soccer) on 9/11 in '03.
Yeah, one big dose of patriotism.
Anyways, I think, no one outside the US will understand this patriotism-thing outside the US for two reasons: either they are too proud of their own countries to admit it (France, British and others), or they don't have any of their own (Germans). And you have those, who aren't patriotic, but they are usually a minority, or in Germany, the majority.

Berlin Wall: Reagan was involved? This is quite new to me. I always thought, that we did it. ;)

Originally Posted by Takuma, to save spac

1. How Washington took a stand.

Trator to the British. And not just in the "you don't support our national 'heroes'" way (i.e. American nationalism.)

2. How the men at Gettysburg fought hand to hand.

As above: trators to Britain.

3. How Lincoln freed the slaves from that time on.

This is actually a good thing, but it's not like the US started it. Romans were freeing slaves 2000 years ago. And plus, they took the slaves in the first place!

4. How Johnson didn’t want to hear the word Vietnam.

Because it was an unjust war, like Iraq.

5. How JFK died so young.

He wasn't that young, but besides that, he was pushing for US superiority with the space program. Though it did acomplish so much for society, the original aim of the space program was to "beat" the Russians, which is nationalism through and through.

6. How the battle for freedom had just begun.

American "freedom" is not freedom. It's a burden on all thoes who live under it. Democracy doesn't work if you think about it logically. If 50.1% of people vote yes on something, then it passes. Well, what about the other 49.9%! They get the stick.

7. How Ronald Reagan took down the Berlin Wall.

He didn't take it down, it colapsed by itself. And Reagan sucked anyways.

8. How the attack on the pentagon shocked us all.

Everyone expected it (at least thoes who actually keep informed about foreign affairs), though it didn't teach the US to stay the fuck out of everyone elses buisness, maybe the next one will.

9. How the Towers fell on 9/11.

As above.

10. How that day felt like Armageddon.

Only to Americans. I personally thought "about time".

11. How Bush said "Terrorist, we will not falter or fail."

And now he's become the greatest terrorist of all. That's my new name for Bush: the Terrorist.

12. How we fought so Afghan women took take off their vail.

But yet, many still want to wear it. As above, stay the fuck out of other countries buisness, especially if it's in their culture. What Americans did there is like having some random people from another country invade and tell you "baseball [or insert any sport/American cultural distinction] is oppressive and 'evil' to our culture; it must be banned", then they congratulate themselves by saying they "freed" you. It's BS.

13. How we have freed Iraq.

No, we installed a corrupt puppet regime after invading a soverign country. Can anyone say "Hitler 'freeing' Austria"*?

*Note: I am not comparing Bush to Hitler, just saying that their motivations for invading are the same.

14. How the insurgents want it back.

As any American (c'mon, admit it!) would if a foreign country invaded you!

15. How we fight for freedom, we will not cave.

You fight for "freedom" (See, there's that word being misused again!) by invading soverign countries, by killing and imprisoning elected leaders**, by installing puppets? That's not freedom, that's American "freedom".

** Yes, Saddam rigged elections, yada yada yada, but so did Bush.

16. How we will forever fight for the Home of the Brave.

Yes, it's the home of the "brave" who has the world by the balls and is killing it slowly, who goes and invades countries (twice) without reason, who supports terrorism, who has enough of a nuclear arsenal to destroy the world countless times and isn't disarming***, the list goes on.

*** Now, this is where the Americans say "well, other countries [N. Korea, Pakistan, India, etc.] are building them...". Well no shit! But it's only because America did first! If the US never build massive amounts of nuclear weapons, other countries wouldn't feel so threatened that they'd have to make them too.


1)Traitors? Iffy, the US was pretty much semi-independent for a good long time before the British decided to reimpose superiority of the crown. It wasnt so much treason as it was keeping the freedom they already had intact. Heck if King George III had agreed to address some of the problems brought up by the Colonials then maybe the US would have went the route of Canada as the Revolutionary War was the very last resort.

2) Gettysburg was the Civil War, not the revolution so I fail to see how they fall under Traitors...

3)Whats your point about the Romans? They took slaves, but never freed them. There were only varying degrees of servitude in which some were better than others.

4)Vietnam, depends, it was unjust because the NVA backed by China, and Russia supported a movement to destablize South Vietnam in a violent attempt at unification. Meanwhile the US was at best defending South Vietnam and at worst, entering Cambodia and Laos(invaded bytthe VC and NVA and used as bases) to destroy staging points. Its not like the US invaded North Vietnam,

5)JFK was young in terms of age when taking the oath of office. Second, his beating of the Russians was to keep national morale high. Or did you fail to realize both sides in the 50s and 60s in the Cold War were trying to keep their respective peoples happy while demonizing the other side.

6)Umm..in democracy there is always one side that isnt happy. This a problem that dates back to Athens. Not everyone agrees with something, and not everyone disagrees. But frankly majority rules and the minority just has to wait for changing political circumstance.

7)It collapsed with the assistance of Berliners on both sides technically. Strategically though Reagan outspent the Russians who tried and failed to keep up with US spending. As for your personal opinion of Reagan well, your entire post is so far filled with personal opinion in an attempt to decredit a ten year old...how old are you?

8) & 9) I live in NYC, I saw it happen. I am sick and fucking tired of outside folks (US and otherwise) on the left telling me this was going to happen. Fuck you, no one predicted this on such a wide scale as it were. As it stands, what drove the terrorists to commit the acts they did was not patriotism, it was religious ferver.

10) See above, and once more, fuck you. I didnt see my mother for 6 months because the New York City Police Department had her working twelve hour shifts. Do you know how hard it is when you're just shy of fifteen and your mother misses your birthday and christmas, and because its a single parent household you have to raise your little brother because mommy is down in an area what she literally described as a warzone?

11) Opinion once again. :rolleyes:

12) Would you have rather us given Osama Bin Laden a medal? The Taliban didnt turn him over, so they were removed. I'm pretty sure people who were FORCED to live as if their nation was something out of the 8th century are glad to be rid of them. If the US stayed out of peoples buisnesses..right, we tried that once. Cant do that again. Maybe you're unfamiliar with interdependent economies.

13) And then held elections in that country. So when did Hitler hold negotiations in Austria? If I'm not mistaken he annex them. When are we annexing Iraq?

14) No shit, but would Canadians cross the border to fight in the US against the invader? Or Mexicans? Because thats whats happening. The insurgents arent just iraqis and here is where you contradict yourself. A good portion of those Iraqi insurgents are Sunnis. The same folks who held power..so tell me is it okay for the Sunnis because they were a dictatorship to rule over the vast majority? Seeing as how in a democracy its wrong for 51% of the people to hold sway over 49%.

15) Free and fair elections, granted they had problems, but when even the UN recongizes them, and they disagreed on the method the US took to obtaining them, then honestly give me a break. The new Iraqi government which decides the their Constitution wont be a puppet. And yes Saddam rigged elections to have 100% of the vote, he was fairly elected when people didnt have a choice. He was a dictator plain and simple not a free and elected leader. And Afganistan, the Taliban wasnt elected either, they took over. They defeated rival factions in 1994 and they took control of most of the country. They were only recongized by two nations before September 11th, and afterwards only by Pakistan.

16) Isnt disarming? Which is why the US and Russia have jointly been disarming for the past 30 years? Which is why at the end of the decade the US will have retired MIRV nuclear weapons in its arsenal(even though most of the Peacekeepers are brand new in terms of age), which is why 4 SSBNs are being converted to carrying cruise missiles instead of ICBMs? Yea, we arent disarming our nuclear inventory at all... :rolleyes:

As for the size of the US nuclear arsenal, technically the US is still 2nd in the world compared to the Russians. We built our nukes because the Russians decided they needed to have the most in the world. It was called an arms race.Finally Pakistan built nukes to one up India, who built nukes to one up China, who built nukes to couterbalance the fact Russia wasnt sharing, and their other enemy the US had nukes as well. North Korea? Christ knows what Kim Jong Il was thinking when he went for a nuclear program. Now that guy is the real terrorist.

As for everyone else bashing this ten year old for what he wrote:

Keep in mind, he's still a child. Keep in mind that this was probably some sort of class assignment. Keep in mind that his view of the world is still innocent, and just because yours is jaded doesnt give you the right for unabashed screaming for his head. Why? Because again keep in mind he's still a child. What you people fail to realize is that patriotism isnt always a bad thing. Patriotism is something that can unite a country to do great things.

For those of you who say patriotism is false and that you are citizens of the world, keep in mind that if you tried to hug a diehard Islamist he'd sooner cut off your head for not preaching the word of Allah than hug you back. There is more to this world keeping it apart than simple patriotism.

Furthermore, I agree with others when I say patriotism in moderation. Do I love my country? Yes. Undoubtably. Do I love the government? Depends. Do I always agree with my countries government? Of course not. Am I still patriotic though because I love where I live and the country I'm in? Of course. Patriotism does not equal complete agreement with the government 100% of the time. You could be patriotic and think your country is going in the wrong way.

America's patriotism is so distubring. It's as if they are covering shame by being over patriotic, like when someone acts too innocent when something is broken. It's like the world is a big vase and "America definately wasn't running through the hall all day and didn't even come out of his room because America would never break a vase because we're great". Get me?

American patriotism just seems down right ignorant sometimes.

Oh it is. It like religious faith. Its the greatest fail safe we have. If anything goes horribly wrong, instead of admitting any kind of fault or taking any shred of accountability we just wrap ourselves in the flag and say that we have faith in our country.

We're so full of patriotic pride, we'll just take a big red, white and blue dump on the rest of the world and clean out our colons with what's left of our civil liberties.

Any chance of Austrailia wanting to give shelter to refugees from America?

yeah, pack up and leave.
you people (left) are such F'ing whiners. if you don't have things your way, instead of having some INTEGRITY you whine and bitch and fuss without presenting logical alternatives to fighting for freedom around the world. (here comes the "well why aren't you fighting for freedom in Africa then?" muckraking question. answer: can't be everywhere at once)

The vote verified that the MAJORITY (remember that word?) of Iraqis were happy that we removed Saddam the Bastard. Now the MAJORITY will rule Iraq. It's about time. I hope Iraqi police hunt and kill every insurgent who continues in the attempt to hinder positive change in Iraq.

why isn't the left happy about the vote or Saddam being gone? Does the left actually endorse an autocrat? Does the left think that this would have happened WITHOUT THE United States and Britain et al?

Don't get me wrong - I have no issues with patriotism. Normal, run-of-the-mill "I like my country" patiotism. It's when it's taken too far: the "you're either with us or against us" mentality, degrading someone because they don't share your over-zealous love for your country, or even being moved to tears by a ten-year old's poem. That's a little excessive for me.

I like patriotism, like alcohol and religion, in moderation - Helennia reminds you to patriotise responsibly. :p

Don't get me wrong. I'm not aiming this at you, you provided a moderate enough response to have the right words for what I wanted to say. Reading through all these kinds of posts, I have come to realize one thing.

Despite what is generally believed by American youth, they are not liberal. They are reactionary. In your post, you divide patriotism into two classes, run-of-the-mill "I like my country", and the "you're either with us or against us" class. Reading though most of the posts in this thread (specifically the ones against patriotism) reveals one truth. A kind of anti-patriotism has taken root that is just as strong, and at least here is divided into two classes, the "I don't like my country" types, and those who degrade someone because they don't share in their over-zealous despising of their country. Some have contended that nationalism is a high form of patriotism (which it is not, nationalism is pride in one's nation [their people group, completely excluding any land territories] and patriotism is pride in your country) and that both must be forsaken. Reference has been made to America's "Nazi-esque" patriotism, but a clarification has to be made. The Nazi's were high Jingoists (for those out of the know, an extreme nationalism/patriotism hybrid) and, if they are responsible for the death of pride in Germany, it becomes problematic to explain the Germans who lived then and are still alive. A German woman lives about a mile down the road from me. She is in her 90's, and she claims to have once shook Hitler's hand at a parade (I'm drawing a blank on the actual word). She emigrated due to Nazi policies, but she is still very proud of her country. I wrote that for the benefit of the person from Germany, and I sincerely hope, for your sake, that you are not correct in saying that your country has no pride left. Pride is what makes countries great, and the loss of it is what destroys them. To use those well known words, a country without pride is 'dead, it just doesn't know it yet.' The part that makes it truly repugnant is that the people who yell the most about how bad their country is, are usually the ones least prepared to give up the creature comforts associated with it. Someone here said that we should say 'lucky to be an American.' And they are right, everyone who is, is damn lucky to be American (or French, or British, or German, or Canadian, or Australian, or any of the other 'Western' Countries). But luck hardly excludes pride. I think of myself as lucky to be from the North(ern US), and I am also proud of it (especially when I'm down South), despite the fact that I often disagree with State policy. So many people today clamor for greater and greater liberty at home, but still take the attitude that what happens over in an Iraq (or any other similar country) is their own business and their own problem. How many of you would say the same thing about Germany and it's allies slaughtering (and being slaughtered by) Britain and it's allies, for I assure you, many Americans felt exactly that way during both World Wars. The only real consolation I find in all this, is that despite all the rabid criticism of today's government and it's wars, if even one good thing happens in anything you criticize today, you're grandchildren will believe that the institutes of their day are corrupt and worthless, and remember those of today as the good ones.

bump

He may just be a kid, but these are the kids who will grow up to become the Rush Limbaughs, Bill O'Reillys, and Ann Coulters of my generation. So yes, he should burn.

He may just be a kid, but these are the kids who will grow up to become the Rush Limbaughs, Bill O'Reillys, and Ann Coulters of my generation. So yes, he should burn.

it's a great thing to know that at the age of 10, you can't change politically ever again. thanks for the info.

*takes out lighter*

I think it is Ignorant but the kid is 10.

It was fine till it got to 9/11.

Also how Lincoln freed the slaves. You would be suprised how many people think the Emancipation Proclamation actually did something.

He may just be a kid, but these are the kids who will grow up to become the Rush Limbaughs, Bill O'Reillys, and Ann Coulters of my generation. So yes, he should burn.

Yeah or at least deport him to Iraq to see how things REALLY go down over there.

I think that this poem is wonderful. I myself, being American, am patriotic.

I would classify it as gay, really, really, gay.

I like the poem, because it proves not only that poetry completely sucks ass (all poems prove this), but ... OK well I guess that's the only reason. Yeah, sentimentalist nationalism doesn't get me teary-eyed... I know it's supposed to, but then again I'm not 10 and have a slightly different understanding of the world.

Forever Free

How Washington took a stand.

How the men at Gettysburg fought hand to hand.

How Lincoln freed the slaves from that time on.

How Johnson didn’t want to hear the word Vietnam.

How JFK died so young.

How the battle for freedom had just begun.

How Ronald Reagan took down the Berlin Wall.

How the attack on the pentagon shocked us all.

How the Towers fell on 9/11.

How that day felt like Armageddon.

How Bush said "Terrorist, we will not falter or fail."

How we fought so Afghan women took take off their vail.

How we have freed Iraq.

How the insurgents want it back.

How we fight for freedom, we will not cave.

How we will forever fight for the Home of the Brave.

He's 11, you say? That's old enough to know better! BURN!

Now, seriously. This is a bs poem written to earn points with either this kid's teachers, or his/her parents, and quite possibly both. What a suck up. Now, who does this remind me of? ;)

(whole massive post back a page)It's true, pride is what makes a nation great. You can't feel like you belong to a nation unless you're proud to be there. I like Australia - we have a lot of good things going for us. I'm not overzealous, though - I can see a lot of the flipside as well.

Aww..folks missed my two comments on page six at the bottom..okay granted one of them was aimed at someone else still woulda liked feedback.

well that poem makes me glad i'm not patriotic, though Australians are not generally known fot their patriotism

Stomach...turning, must - not -

*horrible burbling sound*

Ohhh no, are we out of Pepto? AAAAGH.

Here comes my editorial comment - nnnnnNNNOWwww...!

*ploop*

Ahhh.

A poem only a mother could love or an idiot believe.

How Washington took a stand.

How the men at Gettysburg fought hand to hand.

How Lincoln freed the slaves from that time on.

How Johnson didn’t want to hear the word Vietnam.
This is mostly accurate, although I'm not studied enough on Vietnam to know what LBJ's opinions were.

How JFK died so young.

How the battle for freedom had just begun.
What battle for freedom had just begun at the time JFK died?

How Ronald Reagan took down the Berlin Wall.
He did? That's not quite the way I remember it.

How the attack on the pentagon shocked us all.
The only thing about that attack that shocked anyone was that our security was so lapse that the plane even got near it.

How the Towers fell on 9/11.

How that day felt like Armageddon.
That was shocking.

How Bush said "Terrorist, we will not falter or fail."
He may have said that, but he hasn't lived up to it. His "war on terror" is really a "pick your terrorists" war.

How we fought so Afghan women took take off their vail.
That was a pleasant consequence of the war, not the purpose. The purpose was to punish and remove the people who were harboring bin Laden, but our leaders had little, if any, concern over how the Taliban was treating people (or how Saddam was treating people in Iraq). Now, what causes the individual soldiers took to heart to make it all make sense and seem worthwhile to them is another story, but the administration deserves zero credit for that.

How we have freed Iraq.
Iraq is a long way from being free. We have thus far only traded them one dictator officially in power for another one who wields a more insidious power. They are no less oppressed and no more free than they were two years ago. We've not brought democracy, we've only protected one election, and even then thousands of people were kept from voting. And it will be a long time before we will know whether that election will lead to a democracy (not likely) or a theocracy (likely, as the victorious Shiites tend to be predisposed toward theocratic governments).

How the insurgents want it back.
Yep, and only time will tell who the real winner was.

How we fight for freedom, we will not cave.

How we will forever fight for the Home of the Brave.
Time will tell.

:headbang: americans.........

:headbang: americans.........
Oh, I don't know. I like most of the ones I know.
I'd say :headbang: ten-year-olds.

Aww..folks missed my two comments on page six at the bottom..okay granted one of them was aimed at someone else still woulda liked feedback.I saw them... who were you aiming them at? Besides, I saw your post started with the 'poem' again, and I ran away to find Browning and Wordsworth.

:headbang: americans.........
:rolleyes: n00bies ................

I saw them... who were you aiming them at? Besides, I saw your post started with the 'poem' again, and I ran away to find Browning and Wordsworth.

Well the first one wasnt so much quoting the poem..but Tanakas little ripping of the post. The second one was pretty much directed to those calling for the kids head.

He's ten. *shrugs* The poem is terrible, but he's not the Mozart of poetry. In fact, I doubt I could write a better poem. I'll leave that to people who have skill with words.

Ah, ten.

Two years before I realized that the people running this and every other country on the planet were a bunch of psychotic idiots.

I find the bulk of ten-year olds make exceptionally good tools for advancing the political agenda of those over fifty.

Two years before I realized that the people running this and every other country on the planet were a bunch of psychotic idiots.

I would have to agree. I have yet to see a ruler who isn't either full of dung, or isn't a complete egomaniac :p

I find the bulk of ten-year olds make exceptionally good tools for advancing the political agenda of those over fifty.

Or younger. The psychotic preacher (He goes on a college campus and yells that everyone is retarded.) around here hides behind children every time he's here. Since, of course, they don't need to be learning anything.

Suffice to say, even the other Christians hate him.

I find the bulk of ten-year olds make exceptionally good tools for advancing the political agenda of those over fifty.
I remember a letter a few months back that was printed in a local newspaper (I forget where it was from, it was cited on another discussion forum), and it purported to be from an 11-year-old writing about his frustrations at school over other kids bashing President Bush and criticising the war, then proceeded to go into a stream of the usual rhetoric about how great Bush is, how he's protecting this country from the Phantom Menace, and so on. It supposedly stirred up some furor in that local area, and even caused some parents to call up the school board and complain that teachers were being too liberal in allowing Bush-bashing to go on in the classrooms, and so on. It turned out that the letter was not written by any 11-year-old, but was written by an adult, and that the alleged events at the school were largely fabricated (although I'm sure there was some criticism of Bush and the war -- after all, where was there NOT such criticism?). It's also not terribly dissimilar to the way the Bush Administration (Bush Sr.) used the Kuwaiti ambassador's daughter to fabricate "eyewitness" testimony to human rights violations in an Iraqi hospital prior to the first Gulf War, though it was later discovered that the girl had never even been to the place she was coached to testify about. You're right, old men with political agendas are definitely not aboving using kids to sell those agendas.

bump

It was fine till it got to 9/11.

Also how Lincoln freed the slaves. You would be suprised how many people think the Emancipation Proclamation actually did something.

Yeah, the Emancipation Proclamation didnt do shit, thats why theres so many slaves these days.

I like the poem, because it proves not only that poetry completely sucks ass (all poems prove this), but ... OK well I guess that's the only reason. Yeah, sentimentalist nationalism doesn't get me teary-eyed... I know it's supposed to, but then again I'm not 10 and have a slightly different understanding of the world.

Yeah Obviously you didnt know George Patton was a poet.

how can you insult a ten year old child for something you wouldnt even have the courage to write or publish....bastards. you think your opinion is the only one thats right, you hide behind a computer with a false name and critize a CHILD...what is wrong with you?

Oh brother. Patriotism, I hate it! A plot from spin-doctors obviously.

how can you insult a ten year old child for something you wouldnt even have the courage to write or publish....bastards. you think your opinion is the only one thats right, you hide behind a computer with a false name and critize a CHILD...what is wrong with you?

Dude, I stand up in front of large crowds to tell a psychotic preacher to go fuck off every fricking Monday in a heavily Christian area. Last time, he said "Why did Jesus come?" and I said "Because she gave good head." Who the hell is hiding?

And guess what, being a brainwashed kid doesn't make you RIGHT.

You'd rather LIE to kids than be open when they screwed up?

And guess what, when I was that kid's age, I was in the fricking papers, writing about Clinton. I still have the cut out from the Monterey Herald where they printed my little blurb.

You done yet?

Dude, I stand up in front of large crowds to tell a psychotic preacher to go fuck off every fricking Monday in a heavily Christian area. Last time, he said "Why did Jesus come?" and I said "Because she gave good head." Who the hell is hiding?

Wow. Congrats on being the idiot that not only makes liberal people look like undeveloped morons, but also the guy that everyone winces at when you talk. "Large crowds", eh? Are there kids in those crowds? I mean, I understand where you're coming from... I'm not religious. But you have a choice. You can either make a crude joke, satisfy yourself, and create a horrible image for people like me and you who reject religion; or you can walk by, dissenting in your dignified silence.

And guess what, being a brainwashed kid doesn't make you RIGHT.

You'd rather LIE to kids than be open when they screwed up?

And guess what, when I was that kid's age, I was in the fricking papers, writing about Clinton. I still have the cut out from the Monterey Herald where they printed my little blurb.

So what does that prove? That you were politically conscious at age 10? Wow. I guess it's possible, just not plausible. And yes, I'd rather lie to kids when they are impressionable if it means that telling the truth could hurt them more than a lie. If a kid asked you, at age 10, what "giving head" was, would anyone honestly tell them what it really was? In public? Wouldn't you get arrested for that, or something?

I'm on your side, but get some class.

Wow. Congrats on being the idiot that not only makes liberal people look like undeveloped morons, but also the guy that everyone winces at when you talk. "Large crowds", eh? Are there kids in those crowds? I mean, I understand where you're coming from... I'm not religious. But you have a choice. You can either make a crude joke, satisfy yourself, and create a horrible image for people like me and you who reject religion; or you can walk by, dissenting in your dignified silence.



College campus. Though the rat bastard has made a habit of using kids as human shields lately. For the most part, the rest of the campus, despite being Christian, is on my side, because most of my comments are simply logical arguments and pointing out how the guy makes things up and doesn't actually care about what the book actually says. But I also have the balls to risk pissing off a hundred or so Christians. You were calling people cowards. Would YOU take that kind of risk? Or are YOU a coward?



So what does that prove? That you were politically conscious at age 10? Wow. I guess it's possible, just not plausible. And yes, I'd rather lie to kids when they are impressionable if it means that telling the truth could hurt them more than a lie. If a kid asked you, at age 10, what "giving head" was, would anyone honestly tell them what it really was? In public? Wouldn't you get arrested for that, or something?

I'm on your side, but get some class.

Great. So you're a liar. Telling people how to be good.

And, again, college campus. In the "Free Speech Area". I'm not some nutjob who goes and hunts down an audience. The preacher screams so loud you can hear him half way through the campus, THROUGH a few large buildings, in classrooms, etc.
He also likes to point at random people who look like they're having a rough day and yell at them for not going to his church, saying they're going to hell. Nearly made a gal in my class cry because she was having a rough day.

And if it was my kid? Yes. I try to avoid lying to people. The whole honesty thing is somewhat important to me, horrible person that I am.

When I do lie, its usually because of people like -you- who appearantly enjoy mass ignorance.

So now you have "balls" 'cause you piss Christians off? Congrats, again. You seem to have found a way, in your crude logic, of justifying the fact that you stoop to this preacher's level. I do not condone what he does, but the fact that you yell back at him gives him more to yell about, and gives the "hundred or so Christians" another reason to hate us.

If you're so sensitive as to care about your friend, then why don't you show a little sensitivity towards people? Your "challenge" of labeling me a coward meets a typical (and neo-conservative) standard of "being a man". Instead of bowing to stereotypical gender roles and "taking a risk" like every "man" (according to the precedent set by our President. He happens to be taking a risk right now, invading Iraq.), why don't you report this guy to campus authorities? I happen to be on a University of California campus right now, and I know that a guy who was simply handing out Bibles at a bus stop was asked to leave because of "harrassment".

Your claim of having "balls" is doubtful. Your tactlessness, however, is evident.

(Edit) Oh yeah, and where did I call people cowards?

it saddens me that you take a child's poem and turn it into a political debate.

it was a good poem, and I appaude the child on his creativity and attempt at patriotism.

inaccurate? maybe... Propoganda? From a Child??? maybe it's just an honest child's view of American History. Maybe it's just a poem.

Are you people so insecure about your feelings for America that you have to bash a child's poem?

Are you so stuck so far down the political sewer that everything not of your viewpoint is propoganda... even if it's from a child's heart?

the only thing I find gratifying is that the creator of the poll has that third choice and many people are selecting it.

Suto ri, it does sadden me that people take the innocence of childhood and make it something political. But the truth is that politics and the people involved are drifting farther and farther away from reality.

That said, the piece was obviously presented to garner a reaction. If, for instance, the author's age was not mentioned, what do you think the responses would be? What would your response be?

The fact is, everything is propaganda. My post right now is propaganda. I am trying to persuade your thinking in order to see things my way. The difference is that a child is more easily influenced. The poem is not so much a sad statement of the "political sewer" as it is an obvious exposure to one side of an argument.

However, we can't decide how children are raised by their parents (or other guardians), so "life goes on" (as The Beatles so rightly sing).

In my country the kids are supposed to learn to think for themselves.

They need to learn to filter out all the propaganda that they hear before they make a decision or else you kill free thinking. If you want an american hive of loyal stupid people just like in George Orwell's 1984, then just continue with the patriotic propaganda in schools, in the media and in the family.

This is another example of why I'm proud to be an european.
We've been there and learnt from our mistakes (specially the germans).

And the poem sucks :)

How Ronald Reagan took down the Berlin Wall.


How exactly did the brainless actor take down the Berlin Wall?

If you want an american hive of loyal stupid people just like in George Orwell's 1984, then just continue with the patriotic propaganda in schools, in the media and in the family.

As I will agree with you that the poem sucks, I would have to contend with you on the issue of Europe being devoid of propaganda. The fact that you have been convinced of the fact that America is heading (on a slippery slope, no less) toward a "loyal stupid people" state makes me think that liberal propaganda has reached Europe.

However hard it is to balance, we have to try to maintain a healthy sense of pride in our country, while avoiding jingoism. The "America is dumb" propaganda strikes me as the next wave of "region comparison". I personally think that Europe would be quite nice to live in, however, I gotta stick with what I was given. All I can do, as an American, is try to exhibit the diversity and patience that some fellow countrymen lack.

Sorry 'bout all them other folk. ;-)

If you want an american hive of loyal stupid people just like in George Orwell's 1984, then just continue with the patriotic propaganda in schools, in the media and in the family.

As I will agree with you that the poem sucks, I would have to contend with you on the issue of Europe being devoid of propaganda. The fact that you have been convinced of the fact that America is heading (on a slippery slope, no less) toward a "loyal stupid people" state makes me think that liberal propaganda has reached Europe.

However hard it is to balance, we have to try to maintain a healthy sense of pride in our country, while avoiding jingoism. The "America is dumb" propaganda strikes me as the next wave of "region comparison". I personally think that Europe would be quite nice to live in, however, I gotta stick with what I was given. All I can do, as an American, is try to exhibit the diversity and patience that some fellow countrymen lack.

Sorry 'bout all them other folk. ;-)

inaccurate? maybe... Propoganda? From a Child??? maybe it's just an honest child's view of American History. Maybe it's just a poem.


It is just a poem, it isn't history or truth. If it is this child's honest view of american history then the people that taught him his view of history are to blame, and really ought to be ashamed of themselves


Are you people so insecure about your feelings for America that you have to bash a child's poem?


What does insecurity have to do with it? If it is wrong it is wrong, no matter who wrote it. It was posted here for comment. People are commenting. Should they all just praise it because it was written by a kid?


Are you so stuck so far down the political sewer that everything not of your viewpoint is propoganda... even if it's from a child's heart?


Are you so lacking in capacity for critical thought that the only discourse of which you are capable is to call things you don't like "sewers"? And do you really think that anything that comes from a child's heart is sweet and lovely and true and beyond criticism?

And does it not occur to you that propaganda can be in the way that information is used as well as in the way that it is created? Even if this kid really thinks he's honestly honouring the greatness of his country, when a news network or something plugs it as a way to tug the heartstrings of the ignorant, it is propaganda.

If you want an american hive of loyal stupid people just like in George Orwell's 1984, then just continue with the patriotic propaganda in schools, in the media and in the family.

As I will agree with you that the poem sucks, I would have to contend with you on the issue of Europe being devoid of propaganda. The fact that you have been convinced of the fact that America is heading (on a slippery slope, no less) toward a "loyal stupid people" state makes me think that liberal propaganda has reached Europe.

However hard it is to balance, we have to try to maintain a healthy sense of pride in our country, while avoiding jingoism. The "America is dumb" propaganda strikes me as the next wave of "region comparison". I personally think that Europe would be quite nice to live in, however, I gotta stick with what I was given. All I can do, as an American, is try to exhibit the diversity and patience that some fellow countrymen lack.

Sorry 'bout all them other folk, world. I'm in California. ;)

As I will agree with you that the poem sucks, I would have to contend with you on the issue of Europe being devoid of propaganda. The fact that you have been convinced of the fact that America is heading (on a slippery slope, no less) toward a "loyal stupid people" state makes me think that liberal propaganda has reached Europe.

However hard it is to balance, we have to try to maintain a healthy sense of pride in our country, while avoiding jingoism. The "America is dumb" propaganda strikes me as the next wave of "region comparison". I personally think that Europe would be quite nice to live in, however, I gotta stick with what I was given. All I can do, as an American, is try to exhibit the diversity and patience that some fellow countrymen lack.

Sorry 'bout all them other folk, world. I'm in California. ;)
Which 'other folk' tou talkin' 'bout!

Which 'other folk' tou talkin' 'bout!

All thems thas froms thems "Red states", Willis.

All thems thas froms thems "Red states", Willis.
Wat makes you better'n them?

Wat makes you better'n them?

Ok, /ebonics.

I'm simply making my case that I'm not a "typical dumb religious American", as stated earlier in the thread. Obviously, my statement comes with the disclaimer that, of course, not ALL red staters are conservative or dumb.

Just a little poke at politics.

Plus, I hate the terms "red state" and "blue state".

I know we have propaganda here as well but in a smaller scale that doesn't threaten the freedom of our citizens as much as in USA. We are patriots too but we are not dumb patriots who suck up to our leaders whatever they fancy to do.

I am quite safe in my views that the brain-washing has gone a bit too far in USA. I know that there are many in your country that fight against this developement, thank god. But it's the "bad guys" that rule your country.

I'm not saying americans = dumb, I'm saying dumb patriotism = dangerous.

Don't you know you can actually delete posts as well?

Ooo I would like to go back to California, the blue state ;)

Unlesss someone's already pointed it out, the poem wasn't written by a 10 year old.

You guys are far too gullible and lack perspective severely.

As if a 10 year old has the time, effort, skill, and knowledge to write a poem like this.

I found this on the inter net, a ten year old boy wrote it. (Does he even remember september eleven?)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Forever Free

How Washington took a stand.

That was only because the Govt (British) lied to him about Property. He bought deed to land, but England said no its too far from the coast. Yu don't get it. So he was like, " You know what screw it, I hear that there is a rebel group. I'm joining them in revenge." Notice its never the poor who do something, but the middle class?

How the men at Gettysburg fought hand to hand.

To be accurate remember they had guns lol


How Lincoln freed the slaves from that time on.

No he freed the Southern slaves and after the war was going to deport all african americans to Africa.

How Johnson didn’t want to hear the word Vietnam.

Wait what?

How JFK died so young.

Okay...

How the battle for freedom had just begun.

Which battle?

How Ronald Reagan took down the Berlin Wall.

You do know he did that Figuratively. He never actually did anything.

How the attack on the pentagon shocked us all.

I agree, its a Hard-Knocked Life for us. A Hard-Knocked Life for us! But um I wasn't shocked.

How the Towers fell on 9/11.

So that was caused because we weren't actually very Free. Well to be fair Bush was never free.

How that day felt like Armageddon.

Which day? To who?

How Bush said "Terrorist, we will not falter or fail."

Until we did falter and fail to get Osama. We even attacked Iraq lol.

How we fought so Afghan women took take off their vail.

Than we failed, how do like them cookies? Soggy eh?

How we have freed Iraq.

Depends on your definition of Free...

How the insurgents want it back.

Insurents want back freedom? I agree, but it is hard to believe you are thinking that.

How we fight for freedom, we will not cave.

Yu know is that a pun on Osama hiding in a cave and we failing to find him?

How we will forever fight for the Home of the Brave.

I hopes so, but not lately. Lately we deprive people freedom in Guatomno Bay and stuff.

More patriotic poetry: "There is no bigger task than protecting the homeland of our country." -George W. Bush

Unlesss someone's already pointed it out, the poem wasn't written by a 10 year old.

You guys are far too gullible and lack perspective severely.

As if a 10 year old has the time, effort, skill, and knowledge to write a poem like this.
I have known 10 year olds that could write a poem of quality equal to this. It may be a long shot that it was written by a 10 year old, but it's a possibility.

patriotism = blind obedience, fuck that little kid, he just says what his dumb ass parents say.

Hey, here's a nice poem about patriotism by somebody who doesn't drink out of a sippy cup:


Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.

- Gas! GAS! Quick, boys! An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime . . .
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues -
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

So now you have "balls" 'cause you piss Christians off? Congrats, again. You seem to have found a way, in your crude logic, of justifying the fact that you stoop to this preacher's level. I do not condone what he does, but the fact that you yell back at him gives him more to yell about, and gives the "hundred or so Christians" another reason to hate us.


Balls, overies, either works. So sorry for using a commonly understood bit of slang. We here on this board were accused of 'hiding'. I've thus proved that poster to be in error.

What I do is help people gain the confidence to ignore the jack ass's words. I remind them that the guy doesn't have a clue what he's saying.

More often then not, now that I have the ball rolling, I just sit back and chat with people, while the non-evil Christians

I'm sorry if you consider teaching people to stand up for themselves a bad thing.


If you're so sensitive as to care about your friend, then why don't you show a little sensitivity towards people? Your "challenge" of labeling me a coward meets a typical (and neo-conservative) standard of "being a man". Instead of bowing to stereotypical gender roles and "taking a risk" like every "man" (according to the precedent set by our President. He happens to be taking a risk right now, invading Iraq.),

Sensitivity? Why? I'm sensitive to people whom I feel deserve it, and I'll tell people like Dubya to go jump off of a cliff. I have no intention of granting unearned favors.

It has nothing to do with manhood, ye olde stereotype-dribbler. I'm a bloody feminist moderate who voted for Kerry.

The risk taken is that I made clear my opinions rather than hiding them, to an audience I knew wouldn't care for them. The whole honesty thing again.



why don't you report this guy to campus authorities? I happen to be on a University of California campus right now, and I know that a guy who was simply handing out Bibles at a bus stop was asked to leave because of "harrassment".



He has a legal right to be there. "Free Speech" area.

There are people handing out bibles, as well. They're fine and dandy, and don't grin while damning people. Nice fellows.


Your claim of having "balls" is doubtful. Your tactlessness, however, is evident.

(Edit) Oh yeah, and where did I call people cowards?

Balls, overies, whatever. I have opinions which I'm not afraid to present to people who're skeptical of them, when the forum is introduced for it. I'm willing to say the unpopular thing. I'm willing to be honest and open.

--

Accusations of hiding imply accusations of cowardice.

--

Honestly though, the poem mostly offends me as an English major. Really bad hack job.

lots of different opinions. i love them all

bump ing is fun