NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, I'm a Christian. That is unlikely to change at all ever. Now to my understanding the major diffrence between Christianity and Islam is their reaction to Jesus. To Christians he is God as the son (Human) but to Muslims he is just another prophet. Important, but not God. But what I dont understand is how Muslims relate to God. Do Muslims believe he loves all humans the way that Christinity does. How do Muslims relate to God? I dont fully understand it. Also how does the Muslim idea of sin work (Sin is not proberbly the word) and judgement at the end. I'm not going to debate, I just want to understand.

As one of the 3 monotheistic religions, islam believes that there will be a judgement day, similar to that of the christian one, minus Jesus. From what I understand, they also believe in sin because the Genisis story is in the Qu'ran and as for God, I think they believe in a loving one but they believe that we must do good actions to others to please him, although I'm not 100% sure on that one. Thats what jihad's meaning is, a struggle to do good in the eyes of God.

Muslims submit to God, the one and only. There is nothing can take God's form and nothing can represent God. It's a matter of submission, to embrace God, and submit to him. Yes, God is the most Compassionate, the most Merciful. It's not like God has condemned us. It's a choice whether to submit or not. That's as simple as it gets. Now, regarding sin. I'm not 100% sure, but I do know that one wants Good Deeds to outweigh the sins commited in this life, for fear of going to hell.

But what I dont understand is how Muslims relate to God. Do Muslims believe he loves all humans the way that Christinity does. How do Muslims relate to God? I dont fully understand it. Also how does the Muslim idea of sin work (Sin is not proberbly the word) and judgement at the end. I'm not going to debate, I just want to understand.It's the same God and they feel the same about him that you do. The concept of sin is the same but they define the sins slightly different.

Both religions (and Judism) whorship the God of Abraham, they just went their seperate ways long ago and developed different Dogma.

From what little I have read of the Koran: Allah gave his message to the prophet Moses, but this message was corrupted and led to the creation of Judasism and Christianity. The Koran teaches us that Jesus was indeed a prophet, and Mary was still a virgin at his birth, however he was not the son of god. It goes on to say that Jesus was never actually crucified - it was some kind of double that the Christians claimed to have killed (I forget the motive for this). Allah later begins to give his final message to mankind via Mohamet who is visited by the angle Gabriel (I think its Gabriel anyway) who recites Allah's very words (since mankind is forbiden to see or hear Allah).
Correct me if I am wrong btw.

The More You Know (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam)

As one of the 3 monotheistic religions, islam believes that there will be a judgement day, similar to that of the christian one, minus Jesus. From what I understand, they also believe in sin because the Genisis story is in the Qu'ran and as for God, I think they believe in a loving one but they believe that we must do good actions to others to please him, although I'm not 100% sure on that one. Thats what jihad's meaning is, a struggle to do good in the eyes of God.

actually Hinduism is arguably patently monotheistic even though it has an entire Patheon of deities. Its ahrd too explain but basically of of the gods are simpyl aspect of the higher energy known as Brahman / Brahma. Also some Native American tribes were monotheistic as are Zoahostrians ( a still existant religion in INdia and Iran).

So far as Islam goes here are some facts for you if you want more you should read their holy book the Qu'ran. Islam was founded by Mohommed in the 6th century A.D. The muslims are the decendants of Abrahams illegitimate son Ishmael whom he conceived with his servant girl . They worship the same deity Christians worship the ancient god Yagweh ( Jehova) they refer to him as Allah but its all the same deity. Between the 3 religions that worship Yagweh more deaths can be attributed than any other source in human history ( other than Malaria , yes that right mosquitoes have killed more people than people have killed people). So please continue being a Christian but do try too follow the teachigns of Christ and turn the other cheek. Why if all 3 religions actually followed the teachigns of their respective religions there would be nor wars. However you ahve all been puppets of the land/title/money holders so long you are now so blind too right and wrong your actualyl use yagweh and his different manifestations too jsutify acts of violence. Cretins!!!!!!!!!!

even though i'm an atheist, as i'm living in an islamic country, i think i'm entitled to answer.

one of the main differences is that unlike jesus christ, muhammed isn't the son of god and he hadn't powers such as "raising the dead" or "curing leprosy". as the chosen one, he had the mission to introduce islam to people. god (allah) sent verses to him via an angel that i don't remember the name and he told the verses to the believers. he is presented as the slave of god and his right hand. in short, i can pretty much say that muhammed isn't a point of worship in islam. although he is considered sacred and is respected very much.

the concept of sin (gunah) is pretty much the same as christianity, you do more bad than good, you go to hell after the judgement day. (unless you commit suicide, in that case you go straight to hell without the wait and stay there for all eternity.) some sins weigh more than others, some sins are never forgiven, but also some good deeds are said to neutralize any sin. it's vague. there is no confession; but sins are forgiven by praying to god and begging for his mercy in some particular days of the year, helping the poor ("zekat" is an official way of helping the poor described in the book. it is done by giving 1/40 of all your wealth to the poor.) and prostrating to god.

the concept of fate, the notion that some events are bound to happen cannot be prevented exists in the book.

believers are asked to fear god and praise him and admit that he is the one and only, omniscient and omnipresent. yes, he is believed to love all his human beings. in the book, he tells that all people are born equal in his eye. he has eternal patience and forgiveness. (that opens the way to many contradictions of course.)

people from other religions are tolerated and muslims are asked to tolerate them. atheists (kafir) are despised as they are committing the greatest of sins. people who don't believe in god but tell that they do (munafik) are considered the worst of all.

that's all i can think of for now.

Ok, I'm a Christian. That is unlikely to change at all ever.
Hahaha. I thought that at one point, too.

Islam does not worship the same G-d as Christianity. They claim to, on the surface, but then they go and describe allah, and he is nothing like the Christian G-d. An excellent, well researched site showing the differences is here:
http://dianedew.com/islam.htm
The unfortunate side of this site is that it makes no pretence at impartiality, but on a subject as important to most people as religion, you aren't going to be able to find even one person who is really impartial. And I am not going to say I agree with everything on the site, just that that page I linked to is an excellent summary of the differences.

Islam does not worship the same G-d as Christianity. They claim to, on the surface, but then they go and describe allah, and he is nothing like the Christian G-d. An excellent, well researched site showing the differences is here:
http://dianedew.com/islam.htm
The unfortunate side of this site is that it makes no pretence at impartiality, but on a subject as important to most people as religion, you aren't going to be able to find even one person who is really impartial. If they say they are, they are kidding themselves.

Couldn't these differences be attributed to the fact that the Christian Bible is an erronious, distorted and edited account of God, where as the Qu'ran is the literal word of Allah? Meaning that they do worship the same G-d, but have differing opinions/views on him.

Couldn't these differences be attributed to the fact that the Christian Bible is an erronious, distorted and edited account of God, where as the Qu'ran is the literal word of Allah? Meaning that they do worship the same G-d, but have differing opinions/views on him.
You could say that. You would be wrong, though. And anyway, look at the stories behind the religions.
Jesus: great guy, preaches peace, claims to be G-d, gets killed for it. His followers write a bunch of books about it.
Mohammed:violent guy, gets ticked at a bunch of people, kills a bunch of them, marries 11 women, writes a book justifying it all. His followers go on to kill a large part of the population of North Africa.
Plus now your average Christian fundamentalist isn't actively trying to kill anyone. In general, they are trying to stop what they percieve as killing: unborn children, etc. The average Islamic fundamentalist is actively trying to kill people in the Philipenes, in Bali, in Indonesia, in Iraq, in America...the list goes on. Personally, if we are buying into the idea that G-d is good, I think the Christian side seems to act like it a bit more. Not saying they are perfect, but just in general they are easier to live with.

Something my dad always said to me:

"Blame the religionists, not the religion"

You could say that. You would be wrong, though. And anyway, look at the stories behind the religions.
Jesus: great guy, preaches peace, claims to be G-d, gets killed for it. His followers write a bunch of books about it.
Mohammed:violent guy, gets ticked at a bunch of people, kills a bunch of them, marries 11 women, writes a book justifying it all. His followers go on to kill a large part of the population of North Africa.
Plus now your average Christian fundamentalist isn't actively trying to kill anyone. In general, they are trying to stop what they percieve as killing: unborn children, etc. The average Islamic fundamentalist is actively trying to kill people in the Philipenes, in Bali, in Indonesia, in Iraq, in America...the list goes on. Personally, if we are buying into the idea that G-d is good, I think the Christian side seems to act like it a bit more. Not saying they are perfect, but just in general they are easier to live with.

You really need to take a course on world religions. Your facts are very mixed up. A good book, if you can find it, is Muhammed and the Course of Islam. Mohammed was not violent. He did have to defend Himself and His followers form violent attacks. He did not marry 11 women. I believe it was four; and he only had children with His first wife. The other women he married as a matter of protection. There is only one religion, the religion of God.

Muslims submit to God, the one and only. There is nothing can take God's form and nothing can represent God. It's a matter of submission, to embrace God, and submit to him. Yes, God is the most Compassionate, the most Merciful. It's not like God has condemned us. It's a choice whether to submit or not. That's as simple as it gets. Now, regarding sin. I'm not 100% sure, but I do know that one wants Good Deeds to outweigh the sins commited in this life, for fear of going to hell.

Some strains of Islam venerate "saints" and pray to them as a way of seeking favor with G-d. Other strains of Islam see this as idol worship. There have been wars over this.

He did not marry 11 women. I believe it was four

Just so ya know, Mohammed had at least 16 "wives".

1. Khadija bint Khuwailid
2. Sauda bint Zam’a
3. 'Aisha
4. ’Umm Salama
5. Hafsah
6. Zainab of Jahsh
7. Juwairiyya bint Harith
8. Omm Habiba
9. Safiyya bint Huyayy bint Akhtab
10. Maimuna of Hareth
11. Fatimah (briefly)
12. Hind
13. Asma of Saba
14. Zaynab of Khozayma
15. Habla
16. Asma bint al-Nu’man

Mohammed did not obey the law of Allah in the Quran concerning marriage. He put himself above the law of Allah, and contradicted the Quran in that fashion.

Mohammed, however, was just a man and not perfect and not worthy of worship. Only Allah is worthy of worship.

Just so ya know, Mohammed had at least 16 "wives".

1. Khadija bint Khuwailid
2. Sauda bint Zam’a
3. 'Aisha
4. ’Umm Salama
5. Hafsah
6. Zainab of Jahsh
7. Juwairiyya bint Harith
8. Omm Habiba
9. Safiyya bint Huyayy bint Akhtab
10. Maimuna of Hareth
11. Fatimah (briefly)
12. Hind
13. Asma of Saba
14. Zaynab of Khozayma
15. Habla
16. Asma bint al-Nu’man

Mohammed did not obey the law of Allah in the Quran concerning marriage. He put himself above the law of Allah, and contradicted the Quran in that fashion.

Mohammed, however, was just a man and not perfect and not worthy of worship. Only Allah is worthy of worship.

I thank you sir. I stand corrected. Plural wifes was not unknown in Judism either.

polygomy was well known in Judaism . Just read abotu the life and times of David and you get a very clear picture about the excesses of this fallen King. Who coincidentally god favored over Saul. David turned out being far worse than Saul however the whole point was probably to bring in Solomon ( David's son) atleast thats what a theologist would tell you .

Islam does not worship the same G-d as Christianity. They claim to, on the surface, but then they go and describe allah, and he is nothing like the Christian G-d. An excellent, well researched site showing the differences is here:
http://dianedew.com/islam.htm
The unfortunate side of this site is that it makes no pretence at impartiality, but on a subject as important to most people as religion, you aren't going to be able to find even one person who is really impartial. And I am not going to say I agree with everything on the site, just that that page I linked to is an excellent summary of the differences.
christians claim to worship the same god as the jews but i dont think any jew would recognize the trinity. way different god than the guy in the old testament

christians claim to worship the same god as the jews but i dont think any jew would recognize the trinity. way different god than the guy in the old testament

christianity is the progression of judaism. the old testament fortells of the coming messiah. the new testament is about jesus as the messiah. the difference between the two is the judaism does not accept jesus as messiah.

christianity is the progression of judaism. the old testament fortells of the coming messiah. the new testament is about jesus as the messiah. the difference between the two is the judaism does not accept jesus as messiah.

And Islam is the progression of Christianity.

Say ye, 'We believe in God, and what has been revealed to us, and what has been revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Tribes, and what was brought to Moses and Jesus, and what was brought unto the Prophets from their Lord; we will not distinguish between any one of them, and unto Him are we resigned.

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 2 - The Heifer)

Am i the only person who believes the three monotheistic religions have split paths more because of racial differences rather than real dogmatic ones?

christianity is the progression of judaism. the old testament fortells of the coming messiah. the new testament is about jesus as the messiah. the difference between the two is the judaism does not accept jesus as messiah.
christianity is the progression of judaism IN THE CHRISTIAN MIND.

my point wasnt whether or not christianity is correct but that no jew believes in the same god that christians do because no jew believes in the trinity. if you look at it from the jewish point of view, the christian god just cant be the same guy. only a christian finds it to be the same.

so...... WE may not find allah to be the same as the christian god but to the moslems it IS. different point of view. see the analogy? thats all the point i was making.

I used to have very strong Christian tendencies, I attended church regularly, even played in the Church band. However after spending some time in the real world researching the origins of Christianity I have found some interesting facts that any Christian may deny, however they would do so only out of ignorance, not out of wisdom.
So as not to waste my time on 'pushing' facts, and also because I don't believe in bludgeoning people with my beliefs (I feel everyone should investigate, doubt and eventually draw their own conclusions) I'll give you one simple fact that no Christian can deny if they have knowledge of history.

There were over 80 gospels written during and after the life of Jesus, including ones written by his mother, and Mary Magdalene (who most certainly was not a prostitute!).

Why, with more than 20 times the available testimony on Jesus life did the church choose to only include 4 gospels in the Bible?

Investigate, delve, and DO NOT stop until you get an answer. However I will give you my conclusion briefly: The other 70+ gospels (95% of the testimony written about Jesus) contradicted the image the Church wished to portray.

If we ignore 95% of information on any subject we are generally thought to be ignorant, or foolish, so should we ignore this for our faith? I think not, but think what you may. I only beg you to check these facts for yourself, don't take my word. Enlightenment is available to all who seek it!

And Islam is the progression of Christianity.

Say ye, 'We believe in God, and what has been revealed to us, and what has been revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Tribes, and what was brought to Moses and Jesus, and what was brought unto the Prophets from their Lord; we will not distinguish between any one of them, and unto Him are we resigned.

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 2 - The Heifer)

how can islam be a progression of christianity when they contradict over jesus. christianity says jesus is the son of god and is also god in the trinity. islam does not beleive in the trinity, does not beleive jesus to be the son of god. islam does not even beleive jesus died on the cross.

how can islam be a progression of christianity when they contradict over jesus. christianity says jesus is the son of god and is also god in the trinity. islam does not beleive in the trinity, does not beleive jesus to be the son of god. islam does not even beleive jesus died on the cross.

Isa's (whom you call Jesus) words have become corrupted by men in their translations. It wasn't until Paul of Tarsus, the power hungry misogynist, that Isa began to be taught as the savior of the Jewish people and was proclaimed Messiah.

who killed his mentor by "hiding" him in a well so the mentor could tell him what to say without being seen (like Cirano) by the approaching crowd. Mohammed then told everyone to throw a stone into the well as a sign of obediance to "Allah", thus crushing the mentor.

What do the teachings of Islam really say about ‘Holy War’ or Jihad?
By Bill Schell

This piece is going to be a concise and hopefully clear account of Islam and ‘Holy War’. My sources for this piece include The Koran, the Sunnah’s, various websites including www.muslim.org, and an enlightening conversation with a Muslim friend of mine. In case anyone is wondering what the Sunnah’s are, they are a collection of the Prophet Mohammed’s (Praise Be Unto Him) actual sayings and teachings and actions not included in The Koran. The Arabic word Sunnah has come to denote the way Prophet Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, lived his life.

The first point that must be made is that the words ‘Holy War’ have nothing to do with Islam. These words are not even found in The Koran. These words were first used during the Crusades of the Christian Church. If you really think about the phrase ‘Holy War’ it contradicts itself. As my Muslim friend pointed out, ‘How can war, which is equal to killing and raping a people, be called HOLY?’

The next point brings us to the word Jihad itself. Jihad actually means the struggle within us to become a better person. A check of any Arabic to English should prove it has nothing to do with ‘Holy War.’ In Islam there are some situations where one may have to fight.

1) When one is being attacked one has the right to defend oneself.

2) If someone or a group people such as a country start to steal your land you have the right to defend yourself. However, you cannot harm anyone unless they start attacking you. This is made very clear in The Koran and the sayings of Mohammed (PUH).

3) Now something even more important, only a ruler of the land can call on war and only then within the guidelines listed above. A man in a cave or a man that a people of a specific country have not chosen to be a leader cannot call on war.

4) In Islam YOU HAVE TO try as much as possible to use peaceful means to resolve the problems and war should be the last option as Allah stated in The Koran that He hates war.

5) If after trying all other means to resolve a problem and a person or a people decide to attack you have to defend yourself. However, you are only allowed to fight soldiers or military and you are totally forbidden to kill any children, women, elderly, and civilians. Moreover, if you surprise the enemy without their weapons in their hands you cannot kill them unless they clearly are going to shoot you first.

6) One last thing I have learned is that during such a war you are not allowed to cut down trees.

Bill Schell
(AKA) Mr. Moon

who killed his mentor by "hiding" him in a well so the mentor could tell him what to say without being seen (like Cirano) by the approaching crowd. Mohammed then told everyone to throw a stone into the well as a sign of obediance to "Allah", thus crushing the mentor.


Oooookie ....

I thought the post about christans being 'good' more than muslims was amusing. Yes, there are muslim extremists who kill in the name of Islam, and in doing so, violate the basic tenants of their faith. On the other hand look at what drove these people to those extremes:

1. Christian near domination of large parts of the globe.
2. Extermination and enslavement of entire peoples in the name of christ (see european colonization)
3. The crusades, in which, if you've ever read a history, you'll see just how horrific and brutal the christians were towards the peoples they conquered. Even fellow christians who happened to be orthodox instead of catholic. Some of those things are absolutely horrible.

Christian brutality is rampant throughout history, I'm not saying other religions weren't brutal either, but nowhere near the scale as of the killing, and enslament in the name of Jesus.

(and I sure don't blame jesus for this either, I blame the people who commit these acts, and the societies that spawn them)

how can islam be a progression of christianity .
If you say that Christianism is the Progression of Jewishm...then with the same logic Islam is the progression of Christianism.

If you say that Christianism is the Progression of Jewishm...then with the same logic Islam is the progression of Christianism.
maybe this is how it happened:

a bunch of Jews wanted to Reform Judaism...so they created Christianism...some generations later...some Christians wanted more corrections...so they created Islam.

Religions have defects...they always had and they always will, because they are run by men(dont blame God)

BTW about the 3 Abrahamic religions...Judaism is the most archaic and..Islam is the most modern(just check your timeline)

I'd say Islam is not much different from Catholizism, except they didn't go through the Renaissance and Reformation yet and still live in a different century.

If I look at Islam today and Umberto Eco's "The name of the Rose" I don't see much difference.

I'd say Islam is not much different from Catholizism, except they didn't go through the Renaissance and Reformation yet and still live in a different century.

If I look at Islam today and Umberto Eco's "The name of the Rose" I don't see much difference.

...except Catholics believe Jesus is God, which makes them Christian rather than Muslim. There's also the whole little matter of transubstantiation but let's not open that can of worms. :p

...except Catholics believe Jesus is God, which makes them Christian rather than Muslim.

Do they? So if Jesus wasn't married, where did God's son come from?

Do they? So if Jesus wasn't married, where did God's son come from?

Jesus was God's son himself, if you're Catholic, via Mary's miraculous virginal conception.

Jesus was God's son himself, if you're Catholic, via Mary's miraculous virginal conception.

So which one? Was Jesus God as in your first post or was he God's son?

http://www.internationalterrorist.com/artwork/s_trystop.jpg

MWAHAHAHA!

Seriously, there's nothing wrong with islam, but there are 2 problems:

1-America has turned them into a scapegoat to blame them for americas problems.

2-The extremists (People who use religion as an excuse to kill others), have seized this oppertunity to try and create a holy war, that they hope will bring down capitalism.

It's a big fight for world domination.

I'd say Islam is not much different from Catholizism, except they didn't go through the Renaissance and Reformation yet and still live in a different century.


Different century? What century do I live in?!

You know ... by the time Catholic Europe was just beginning its Renaissance, Muslims had already invented the telescope, algebra, described blood circulation, invented the watch, the mariners compass, the astrolabe, the planisphere (with the Sun in the middle!), were making huge strides in astronomy and physics, were treating small pox and the measles (as diseases, not devils), and so on and so on and so on and so on ...

Amazing how much people can accomplish when scientific discovery is an integral part of their religion rather than wasting their best and brightest minds on attempts at proving gout is the mark of Cain or that the Earth is the center of the Universe.

Different century? What century do I live in?!

You know ... by the time Catholic Europe was just beginning its Renaissance, Muslims had already invented the telescope, algebra, described blood circulation, invented the watch, the mariners compass, the astrolabe, the planisphere (with the Sun in the middle!), were making huge strides in astronomy and physics, were treating small pox and the measles (as diseases, not devils), and so on and so on and so on and so on ...

Amazing how much people can accomplish when scientific discovery is an integral part of their religion rather than wasting their best and brightest minds on attempts at proving gout is the mark of Cain or that the Earth is the center of the Universe.

Yes, I know that. However, if you talk to a Chinese, he will explain to you that they invented these things 5,000 years earlier, including the WC and more.

On the other hand - look at Saudi Arabia. Gay Sex is punishable by death or worse, but since women are not available the men have sex with boys. You have double standards everywhere.


I think, religion is not compatible with democracy, but rather with dictatorship. Just look around where religion is strong, where people get killed en mass and freedom is something people just talk or dream about.

The US for example, or Iran, or North Korea, or the Philippines, or South America.

On the other hand - look at Saudi Arabia. Gay Sex is punishable by death or worse, but since women are not available the men have sex with boys. You have double standards everywhere.

Wow ... I've been to Saudi Arabia ... never heard of that. I saw plenty of women while I was there. Anyway, though, Saudi Arabia is under the whim of a King and is not a good indication of a true Islamic Democracy.

Just so ya know, Mohammed had at least 16 "wives".

1. Khadija bint Khuwailid
2. Sauda bint Zam’a
3. 'Aisha
4. ’Umm Salama
5. Hafsah
6. Zainab of Jahsh
7. Juwairiyya bint Harith
8. Omm Habiba
9. Safiyya bint Huyayy bint Akhtab
10. Maimuna of Hareth
11. Fatimah (briefly)
12. Hind
13. Asma of Saba
14. Zaynab of Khozayma
15. Habla
16. Asma bint al-Nu’man

Mohammed did not obey the law of Allah in the Quran concerning marriage. He put himself above the law of Allah, and contradicted the Quran in that fashion.

Mohammed, however, was just a man and not perfect and not worthy of worship. Only Allah is worthy of worship.

The books of sirah (the biography of the Prophet Muhammad) differ on the number of his wives. The main reason behind the differences in the number of his wives is - in most of the cases - due to the reliance on weak non-authentic hadiths. The vast majority of Muslim scholars agreed that the wives of the prophet (pbuh) were:

1. Khadijah
2. `A’isha bint Abu Bakr
3. Sawda bint Zum`ah
4. Hafsa bint `Umar
5. Zaynab bint Khuzaymah
6. Um-Habibah bint Abu Sufyan
7. Um-Salamah
8. Zaynab bint Jahsh
9. Juwariyah bint al-Harith
10. Safiyah bint Hayi ibn Akhtab
11. Maymunah al-Hilaliyah
12. Mariya al-Qibtiya (Who was from Egypt.)

These are the names upon whom the scholars agreed.

(Fatima was Muhammad's daughter, not his wife)

The books of sirah (the biography of the Prophet Muhammad) differ on the number of his wives. The main reason behind the differences in the number of his wives is - in most of the cases - due to the reliance on weak non-authentic hadiths. The vast majority of Muslim scholars agreed that the wives of the prophet (pbuh) were:


That's why I put wives in "".

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2-The extremists (People who use religion as an excuse to kill others), have seized this oppertunity to try and create a holy war, that they hope will bring down capitalism.


Myth.

They love capitalism as much as much as your average Republican.

Different century? What century do I live in?!

You know ... by the time Catholic Europe was just beginning its Renaissance, Muslims had already invented the telescope, algebra, described blood circulation, invented the watch, the mariners compass, the astrolabe, the planisphere (with the Sun in the middle!), were making huge strides in astronomy and physics, were treating small pox and the measles (as diseases, not devils), and so on and so on and so on and so on ...

Amazing how much people can accomplish when scientific discovery is an integral part of their religion rather than wasting their best and brightest minds on attempts at proving gout is the mark of Cain or that the Earth is the center of the Universe.
And Muslims brought science back to Europe. But since that the situation has changed and now it's our turn to save their knowledge, culture and science from many of their fanatic leaders. There's a word for this fundamentalist movement in Islam, but I don't know it in English. Maybe you know?

Muslims are all just fanatics who want to create a world Islamic empire, so we must crush them and create a world Christian empire!

Muslims were just created to get in the way of our Christendom! Heritics die! :fluffle: :fluffle:

So which one? Was Jesus God as in your first post or was he God's son?

Both - that's part of the mystery of the Trinity. Jesus is both the Son of God and one of the three persons of God - he's separate from God the Father and the Holy Spirit, who is seen as the love between the father and the son taking on a separate identity of its own. It doesn't make a lot of sense to our minds, but that's what the dogma is - one God, three persons (or 'aspects' if that helps.) I'll see if I can find you a link that will help explain it better.

Edit: here's one I found which might be a little clearer than my rambling! Where's my Catholic mum when you need her? I've been lapsed so long I've forgotten how to explain things. http://www.cwo.com/~pentrack/catholic/apolo.html#The%20Trinity

Yes, I know that. However, if you talk to a Chinese, he will explain to you that they invented these things .
the chinese inveted a lot of things...but Keruvalia is correct when he portraits Islam as a beacon of Science...

The weakness of Islam was on the military side... originaly they developed Science, Culture, and Wealth...and lagged on weapons developement.

I'm trying to figure out why they suddenly stopped thinking science and math were good things. It apparently happened quite a while back.

You can't teach quantum physics to any seriously religious person. This includes some Christians, but for some reason, their society seems more willing to overlook the philosophical underpinnings.

When the Shah of Iran was overthrown, and the revolutionary students took over the schools, the first people executed on campus were not the administrators. They were the physicists. Anyone teaching that no one, not even God, can avoid Heisenberg's uncertainty principle was in line to get shot.

Even the working principle behind something as trivial as the tunnel diode is not for the religious fundamentalist.

I would like Keru if he knows of the historical events that precipitated the abandonment of scientific and mathematical research in Islamic countries. I am only guessing, but I bet it was tied to the destruction of the Caliphate (fall of Samarkand, fall of Baghdad, and the destruction of the libraries at both cities).

I would like Keru if he knows of the historical events that precipitated the abandonment of scientific and mathematical research in Islamic countries. I am only guessing, but I bet it was tied to the destruction of the Caliphate (fall of Samarkand, fall of Baghdad, and the destruction of the libraries at both cities).

It hasn't been abandoned at all. Muslims still, to this day, tend to be at the top of their fields in medicine and science. A couple of bad eggs doesn't spoil the whole bunch.

On an objective stance, I believe a lot of the problem being faced today is the lack of central universities. Muslims used to build great central learning centers where all Muslims could go and learn the ways of the world and study the universe, but over the last 100 years or so, various wars and infighting have left an entire generation of Muslims without such access. In short, the average Muslim outside of Europe or North America tends to be less educated than the Muslim of the past ... why do you think Muslims are flocking to Europe and the United States in droves?

It's sad, really, but I believe it to be a temporary setback.

It hasn't been abandoned at all. Muslims still, to this day, tend to be at the top of their fields in medicine and science. A couple of bad eggs doesn't spoil the whole bunch.

On an objective stance, I believe a lot of the problem being faced today is the lack of central universities. Muslims used to build great central learning centers where all Muslims could go and learn the ways of the world and study the universe, but over the last 100 years or so, various wars and infighting have left an entire generation of Muslims without such access.

It's sad, really, but I believe it to be a temporary setback.

There are no Muslims (at least no prominent Arabs) who are considered to be at the top of the game in theoretical physics, for example. Just wondering why this is.

More Hindus in mathematics than I can shake a stick at, but almost no Arabs.

White guys don't seem to be at the top of the game in all fields, but Hindus and Chinese seem to have the Arabs beat by orders of magnitude.

Arabs (as a subgroup of Islamic people) seem to be grossly underrepresented.

Part of Iran's problem in developing the bomb seems to be rooted in the mass executions of anyone who knew theoretical physics or applied physics. Pakistan apparently had significant problems as well - because their university system was incapable of turning out a graduate who could arrive at the solution without outside help.

One might say that the American effort required outside help in the 1940s - but that help came from Europeans.

One could even say that given the really small population of Jews (around 14 million today) that they are grossly overrepresented in most scientific and medical fields - despite being chased and abused for 2000 years.

One could even say that given the really small population of Jews (around 14 million today) that they are grossly overrepresented in most scientific and medical fields - despite being chased and abused for 2000 years.
They are vastly overrepresented. Jews are something like 2% of the world's population, but have won something like 50% of all Nobel Prizes ever awarded. Not that I mind a bit.

14 million people out of 6 billion is less than 2 percent.

A couple of interesting points about Islam. The Center for Religious Freedom recently did a report on what exactly, Saudi-funded mosques in the US are teaching, and look at some of the points from the report:

· Various Saudi government publications gathered for this study, most of which are in Arabic, assert that it is a religious obligation for Muslims to hate Christians and Jews and warn against imitating, befriending, or helping them in any way, or taking part in their festivities and celebrations;

· The documents promote contempt for the United States because it is ruled by legislated civil law rather than by totalitarian Wahhabi-style Islamic law. They condemn democracy as un-Islamic;

· The documents stress that when Muslims are in the lands of the unbelievers, they must behave as if on a mission behind enemy lines. Either they are there to acquire new knowledge and make money to be later employed in the jihad against the infidels, or they are there to proselytize the infidels until at least some convert to Islam. Any other reason for lingering among the unbelievers in their lands is illegitimate, and unless a Muslim leaves as quickly as possible, he or she is not a true Muslim and so too must be condemned. For example, a document in the collection for the “Immigrant Muslim” bears the words “Greetings from the Cultural Attache in Washington, D.C.” of the Embassy of Saudi Arabia, and is published by the government of Saudi Arabia. In an authoritative religious voice, it gives detailed instructions on how to “hate” the Christian and Jew: Never greet them first. Never congratulate the infidel on his holiday. Never imitate the infidel. Do not become a naturalized citizen of the United States. Do not wear a graduation gown because this imitates the infidel;

· One insidious aspect of the Saudi propaganda examined is its aim to replace traditional and moderate interpretations of Islam with extremist Wahhabism, the officially-established religion of Saudi Arabia. In these documents, other Muslims, especially those who advocate tolerance, are condemned as infidels. The opening fatwa in one Saudi embassy-distributed book, published by the Saudi Air Force, responds to a question about a Muslim preacher in a European mosque who taught that it is not right to condemn Jews and Christians as infidels. The Saudi state cleric’s reply rebukes the Muslim cleric: “He who casts doubts about their infidelity leaves no doubt about his.” Since, under Saudi law, “apostates” from Islam can be sentenced to death, this is an implied death threat against the tolerant Muslim imam, as well as an incitement to vigilante violence;

· Sufi and Shiite Muslims are viciously condemned;

· For a Muslim who fails to uphold the Saudi Wahhabi sect’s sexual mores (i.e. through homosexual activity or heterosexual activity outside of marriage), the edicts published by the Saudi government’s Ministry of Islamic Affairs, and found in American mosques advise, “it would be lawful for Muslims to spill his blood and to take his money;”

· Regarding those who convert out of Islam, the Saudi Ministry of Islamic Affairs explicitly asserts, they “should be killed;”

· Saudi textbooks and other publications in the collection, propagate a Nazi-like hatred for Jews, treat the forged Protocols of the Elders of Zion as historical fact, and avow that the Muslim’s duty is to eliminate the state of Israel;

· Regarding women, the Saudi publications instruct that they should be veiled, segregated from men and barred from certain employment and roles;

The report states: “While the government of Saudi Arabia claims to be ‘updating’ or reforming its textbooks and study materials within the Kingdom, its publications propagating an ideology of hatred remain plentiful in some prominent American mosques and Islamic centers, and continue to be a principal resource available to students of Islam within the United States.”

The research, translation and principle analysis of the materials for the report were carried out by both Muslims and non-Muslims who wish to remain anonymous for reasons of security. Some 90 percent of the publications are in Arabic; two independent translators reviewed each Arabic document. This project was undertaken after many Muslims requested the Center’s help in exposing Saudi extremism in the hope of freeing their communities from ideological strangulation.

You can read the whole thing here:http://freedomhouse.org/religion/publications/Saudi%20Report/FINAL%20FINAL.pdf
I think the fundamental problem with Islam is that it is a religion stuck in a medieval view of the world, and though that is changing in some circles, it is a difficult process. Best of luck to the reformers.

Isa's (whom you call Jesus) words have become corrupted by men in their translations. It wasn't until Paul of Tarsus, the power hungry misogynist, that Isa began to be taught as the savior of the Jewish people and was proclaimed Messiah.

Convieniently ignoring the over 300 prophiecys Jesus fufills in his life in the Old Testement.