NationStates Jolt Archive

That is the opinion of the current President, Ghazi al-Yawer (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20050129/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_president_turnout)


Iraq (news - web sites)'s president predicted Saturday that most of his country's people will not go to the polls for a historic election Sunday, mostly because of security fears.

"We hope everyone will participate," President Ghazi al-Yawer said at a news conference the day before the vote. "But the majority prefer not to participate for fear of going out to polling stations."

He said a minority of people would not vote because they were boycotting the vote for political reasons. But he predicted most of those who stay away would do so because of their fears of attacks.

Overall, al-Yawer predicted that a majority of the country's eligible voters would not show up at the polls.


But I'm sure that it will still be heralded as a "big step" giving somebody "political capital". The fact that most IRaqis are too frightened to vote for the people who will be writing their constitution is a shame. The fact that the security is so bad that most candidates won't even publish their names for fear of being murdered is disturbing. the fact that Iraqis are so fearful of this day that the entire police of Ramadi quit rather than work for that day (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-insurgency26jan26,1,5568632.story?ctrack=3&cset=true) is a huge indicator of how bad it is.

Recently the insurgents have carried out about 50 attacks daily, including a spate of killings and the bombing of a water main that disrupted the supply for hundreds of thousands of Baghdad residents. After a round of killings in Ramadi, the capital of Al Anbar province in the Sunni heartland, word came Tuesday that the 1,000-member police force had abandoned its posts, the latest flop of the U.S.-sponsored security services. "



Frankly, besides a PR stunt that may result in a lot of innocent people dying, I fail to see why this election is being carried out in an insecure country where even the leadership says it's not ready for it.

Well, this way Bush can both retreat and say it is a democracy.

That is the opinion of the current President, Ghazi al-Yawer (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20050129/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_president_turnout)

But I'm sure that it will still be heralded as a "big step" giving somebody "political capital". The fact that most IRaqis are too frightened to vote for the people who will be writing their constitution is a shame. The fact that the security is so bad that most candidates won't even publish their names for fear of being murdered is disturbing. the fact that Iraqis are so fearful of this day that the entire police of Ramadi quit rather than work for that day (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-insurgency26jan26,1,5568632.story?ctrack=3&cset=true) is a huge indicator of how bad it is.

Frankly, besides a PR stunt that may result in a lot of innocent people dying, I fail to see why this election is being carried out in an insecure country where even the leadership says it's not ready for it.


Um ... over 11 million have registered.

Most Americans don't vote.
Even more Brits don't vote.
Large numbers of Europeans dont vote that much.
In safe areas voting is expected at rates higher than in America.
Understandably in unsafe areas turn out will be lower.

I'm no Bush fan. But considering how bad things are, the turn out will probably be quite good.

Most Americans and Brits don't vote out of apathy, not out of fear. And if they were voting for the people who were going to rewrite their Constitution they just might make the effort.

Um ... over 11 million have registered.

And most registration occurred before the campaign against the election really got started, and before the American Government stated that they would not be providing any security for the event.

I hope that they get a good turnout, but it seems as though the leadership on the ground is not very hopeful.

Well, this way Bush can both retreat and say it is a democracy.

...and then shortly afterwards, the country will be overrun, democracy dismantled, and both America and Britain can conveniently forget about it like with Afghanistan.

And most registration occurred before the campaign against the election really got started, and before the American Government stated that they would not be providing any security for the event.

I hope that they get a good turnout, but it seems as though the leadership on the ground is not very hopeful.

Well, time will tell, will it not? The polls in Iraq open at 11 PM EST Sunday ( US ), and I will be very interested to see what happens. I really do wish them the best of luck.

I remember reading about one man who prepared to vote in the Afghan elections by praying a Muslim prayer for his death. He honestly valued his vote more than his life. Would that more here in the US felt this way! :(

I think the Iraqis should vote to rid their country of democrats. It's too late for America to do that, but we're making progress. I hope the Iraqi nation will get a head start.

Right now anyone you might call a democrat in Iraq are probably the pro US factions.

But you know, fuck that, let's get a conservative theocracy going! It'll be just like Iran! Yay!

Well, time will tell, will it not? The polls in Iraq open at 11 PM EST Sunday ( US ), and I will be very interested to see what happens. I really do wish them the best of luck.

I remember reading about one man who prepared to vote in the Afghan elections by praying a Muslim prayer for his death. He honestly valued his vote more than his life. Would that more here in the US felt this way! :(

Would that be true here too. I have only missed one election since I turned 18 - a municipal election that coincided with my vacation plans. Too many people like to complain but refuse to do anything to change the direction of their country. Mind you, the fact that our system still has more room for new parties to grow and flourish helps - we don't feel constrained by a two-party system where both sides have failed us at one time or another.

So we let new parties come along and fail us in new and interesting ways :D

No, most Iraqis WILL vote.

Most SUNNIS will not vote.

The shi'ites are preparing en masse to get to those polling stations.

No, most Iraqis WILL vote.

Most SUNNIS will not vote.

The shi'ites are preparing en masse to get to those polling stations.

First: When did Sunni's stop being Iraqis?

and second, the followers of Al Sadr (a Shi'ite) also are not likely to vote: (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/29/international/middleeast/29iraq.html?hp&ex=1107061200&en=af3334ab192c7aa6&ei=5094&partner=homepage)

Less than 48 hours before nationwide elections here, Nasir al-Saedy, one of the city's most popular Shiite clerics, stood before a crowd of 20,000 Iraqis and uttered not a single word about the vote.

Sheik Saedy spoke of faith, humility and the power of God. But about Sunday's elections, the first here in more than 30 years, nothing.

For the throngs of Iraqis who had come to Al Mohsen Mosque to listen, the sheik's silence came through loud and clear.

And it foreshadowed a less than overwhelming voter turnout in many parts of Iraq.

"God willing, I will not be voting," Ziad Qadam, an unemployed 27-year-old, said after Friday Prayers at the mosque in Sadr City, the vast Shiite district in Baghdad. "Our religious leaders have not told us to vote."

Sheik Saedy is an acolyte of Moktada al-Sadr, the rebel Shiite cleric, and his Friday sermon seemed to settle for good the question of Mr. Sadr's place in the country's new democratic order.


So that leaves the Kurds who will vote, largely because they are also voting on their own regional parliament at the same time, and the followers of Sistani - an Iranian cleric who wants to implement an Iranian-style theocracy.

That will be the bulk of the voting Iraqis, hardly representing a true plurality amongs the various citizens.

First: When did Sunni's stop being Iraqis?

and second, the followers of Al Sadr (a Shi'ite) also are not likely to vote: (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/29/international/middleeast/29iraq.html?hp&ex=1107061200&en=af3334ab192c7aa6&ei=5094&partner=homepage)



So that leaves the Kurds who will vote, largely because they are also voting on their own regional parliament at the same time, and the followers of Sistani - an Iranian cleric who wants to implement an Iranian-style theocracy.

That will be the bulk of the voting Iraqis, hardly representing a true plurality amongs the various citizens.

Al Sadr does not rule all the Shi'ites. It's not like he's the Pope of Shi'ite's. This is the first chance the Shi'ites have to REALLY influence their nation. Will they just sit back and let Sunni's enslave them again? Or will they try to make a land where their people can be free of radical dictators and govern THEMSELVES?

I think this guy is just taking the safest position for the upcoming elections by saying he doesn't think there will be a big turnout. If he is right, he predicted it. If he is wrong, he can be pleasantly surprised.

Most Americans don't vote.
Even more Brits don't vote.
Large numbers of Europeans dont vote that much.
In safe areas voting is expected at rates higher than in America.
Understandably in unsafe areas turn out will be lower.

I'm no Bush fan. But considering how bad things are, the turn out will probably be quite good.

Here I agree with you. Voter turnout will be high. They do want democracy otherwise, millions of people wouldn't have registered to Vote!

Al Sadr does not rule all the Shi'ites. It's not like he's the Pope of Shi'ite's. This is the first chance the Shi'ites have to REALLY influence their nation. Will they just sit back and let Sunni's enslave them again? Or will they try to make a land where their people can be free of radical dictators and govern THEMSELVES?

Which part of my awareness of the fact that there were different Shi'ite leaders such as Sadr and Sistani wasn't clear by the fact that I pointed out that one group WAS being urged to vote while the other group wasn't?

However, as far as radical dictators go, I don't think they get the option : "Anyone but George Bush" on the ballot.

:D

Most Americans and Brits don't vote out of apathy, not out of fear. And if they were voting for the people who were going to rewrite their Constitution they just might make the effort.

The Constitution hasn't been rewritten short of a constitutional Convention and ratification by the states. That is how an Amendment gets passed. Bush tried that last year and it was defeated but yet the people of the US re-elected him.

And most registration occurred before the campaign against the election really got started, and before the American Government stated that they would not be providing any security for the event.

I hope that they get a good turnout, but it seems as though the leadership on the ground is not very hopeful.

Oh? Where did we say that we weren't providing security?

No, most Iraqis WILL vote.

Most SUNNIS will not vote.

The shi'ites are preparing en masse to get to those polling stations.

And the Kurds too!

Which part of my awareness of the fact that there were different Shi'ite leaders such as Sadr and Sistani wasn't clear by the fact that I pointed out that one group WAS being urged to vote while the other group wasn't?

However, as far as radical dictators go, I don't think they get the option : "Anyone but George Bush" on the ballot.

:D

And its a small group! Nothing more. Most Shi'its will vote.

Would that be true here too. I have only missed one election since I turned 18 - a municipal election that coincided with my vacation plans. Too many people like to complain but refuse to do anything to change the direction of their country. Mind you, the fact that our system still has more room for new parties to grow and flourish helps - we don't feel constrained by a two-party system where both sides have failed us at one time or another.

So we let new parties come along and fail us in new and interesting ways :D

LOL! Um ... sounds like a lot of work for next to nothing to me. :)

Oh? Where did we say that we weren't providing security?


Do you pay attention to the news at all? Thel onsite security at the polling stations will be provided by Iraqi's. The American forces are not to be at the polling stations them, but rather to provide "support" if needed.

Do you pay attention to the news at all? Thel onsite security at the polling stations will be provided by Iraqi's. The American forces are not to be at the polling stations them, but rather to provide "support" if needed.

Support if needed! That is the key word. In otherwords dumbass, we will be helping with security but stealthly. We may not have a public profile for it however, we are ready to assist when needed. Just like the police of our country. Dial 911 if you need us.

LOL! Um ... sounds like a lot of work for next to nothing to me. :)


Yeah, but it keeps things interesting! lol.

Incidentally, I have to question that 11 million number you came up with for registration.

According to the CIA world factbook:

Iraq:
Population: 25,374,691
Age 0-14 years: 40.3%

Now if we set the voting age to 14 that still results in only 15,148,690 of voting age.

Next we consider that fact that Sunni areas have generally not registered, and the Sunni population is estimated at between 32 and 37% of the popluation. If we only removed 20% of the population by assuming that Sunnis in mixed areas might have registered, then you are still down to 12 million eligible voters over the age of 14.

Considering how many Iraqi women probably did not register (if their husbands told them not to) and the population between the ages of 15 and 18, then a figure like 11 million seems inflated.

LOL! Um ... sounds like a lot of work for next to nothing to me. :)

Yeah, but it keeps things interesting! lol.

Incidentally, I have to question that 11 million number you came up with for registration.

According to the CIA world factbook:

Iraq:
Population: 25,374,691
Age 0-14 years: 40.3%

Now if we set the voting age to 14 that still results in only 15,148,690 of voting age.

Next we consider that fact that large Sunni areas have generally not registered, and the Sunni population is estimated at between 32 and 37% of the popluation. If we only removed 20% of the population by assuming that Sunnis in mixed areas might have registered, then you are still down to 12 million eligible voters over the age of 14.

Considering how many Iraqi women probably did not register (if their husbands told them not to) and the population between the ages of 15 and 18, then a figure like 11 million seems inflated.

Yeah, but it keeps things interesting! lol.

Incidentally, I have to question that 11 million number you came up with for registration.

According to the CIA world factbook:

Iraq:
Population: 25,374,691
Age 0-14 years: 40.3%

Now if we set the voting age to 14 that still results in only 15,148,690 of voting age.

Next we consider that fact that Sunni areas have generally not registered, and the Sunni population is estimated at between 32 and 37% of the popluation. If we only removed 20% of the population by assuming that Sunnis in mixed areas might have registered, then you are still down to 12 million eligible voters over the age of 14.

Considering how many Iraqi women probably did not register (if their husbands told them not to) and the population between the ages of 15 and 18, then a figure like 11 million seems inflated.

Here's a question! What about the Iraqis that are overseas? Don't they count towards the vote total too?

Here I agree with you. Voter turnout will be high. They do want democracy otherwise, millions of people wouldn't have registered to Vote!
is it jsut me or do these people sit around reassuring each other they are right?
its like hey im a right winger, hey me too, really wow i agree with you now

Here's a question! What about the Iraqis that are overseas? Don't they count towards the vote total too?

Yes. The total overseas IRaqi population registered to vote stood at 237,704 as of Tuesday. (http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=91572005) Only about 1 in 5 bothered to even register.

I don't have a final figure, but it seems as though the ex-patriot community is not as motivated as Bush had hoped.

I dunno if they will come out by the masses or not. I doubt it, but only results can tell.

Support if needed! That is the key word. In otherwords dumbass, we will be helping with security but stealthly. We may not have a public profile for it however, we are ready to assist when needed. Just like the police of our country. Dial 911 if you need us.


Your resorting to childish insults duly noted.

However, I think you will find that groups of Americans in full armour and kit are rarely successful at being "stealthy".

But yes, they will be ready to pick up the body parts after the bombs have gone off.

Of course, the IRaqis WOULD call 9-11.... if only the phones worked.

Your resorting to childish insults duly noted.

My apologizes. I didn't get enough sleep last night so I am abit edgy than I normally am! Please accept my apology.

However, I think you will find that groups of Americans in full armour and kit are rarely successful at being "stealthy".

You have a point there but then again, we have a habit of being stealthy when required.

But yes, they will be ready to pick up the body parts after the bombs have gone off.

I'm sure we're doing a hell of alot more than that. Just because it isn't being broadcasted does not make it so.

Of course, the IRaqis WOULD call 9-11.... if only the phones worked.

How do you know they're not working? Again, your making assumptions that you don't have proof to back it up.

How do you know they're not working? Again, your making assumptions that you don't have proof to back it up.

How about for once in your tenure here YOU provide proof of anything besides your ability to spout rhetoric laced with factual errors?


You do great at insisting everyone else back up their claims, but I don't think I've ever seen you source a fact to back up one of your assertions. Which probably explains why you are wrong so often.

How about for once in your tenure here YOU provide proof of anything besides your ability to spout rhetoric laced with factual errors?

In this case, I asked you for proof and now your telling me to provide it. FYI, I have provide proof on many occassions but my "sources are no good" because they're from Conservative sources. Sorry Zeppistan. I have accepted liberal sources when they can be verified and many times, the conservatives are right with their stories too.

Now provide proof that the phones aren't working.

[quote]You do great at insisting everyone else back up their claims, but I don't think I've ever seen you source a fact to back up one of your assertions. Which probably explains why you are wrong so often.

I have on many occassions. See above statement for why you think i haven't

whats the big deal about most of them not voting?
most Canadians and Americans don't vote.

Lets face it, this "free election" is nothing but a sham to begin with. There will be NO, that's right NO international monitors, not even American ones. There will be no way to know if the vote turns out to be fair let alone democratic. As far as I can tell it won't surprise me if the ex-pats end up choosing the next Iraqi government which is total and utter B.S. given some of them haven't been to Iraq since children.

Lets face it, this "free election" is nothing but a sham to begin with. There will be NO, that's right NO international monitors, not even American ones. There will be no way to know if the vote turns out to be fair let alone democratic. As far as I can tell it won't surprise me if the ex-pats end up choosing the next Iraqi government which is total and utter B.S. given some of them haven't been to Iraq since children.

You do have a point however, I firmly believe that the vote will be fair. We just have to see won't we. No need to start condemning it Stephistan.

We should send rock bands to Iraq and start a rock the vote campaign. Of course, then we'll have them telling the public that the more conservative candidate plans to reinstate the draft....so maybe that's not a good idea.

I can't vote, so if someone said I could, I would be stoked. I like to consider myself a pretty faithful person, so I like to think I wouldn't be scared of getting blown up. But hey, that's just me. I guess the election will probably turn out to be an indicator of which faction has less fear. And maybe that's the way it ought to be, eh? Then you have a president with less fear, and perhaps a government that's willing to take action. Just a theory though, I'm sure it will be debunked in the next post. Stay classy.

Now provide proof that the phones aren't working.


Why yes sir Mr. Corneliu sir.

Although your rationale as to why you don't offer links although you repeatedly ask for them really is bogus. Fact is you get so many things wrong that I'm not sure if you just report what comes to you in dreams or not. I mean, you've been arguing with me in two threads here this week and never linked even ONE source for any of your assertions whereas I repeatedly source articles.

Now I don't recall what sources you used before, however it has been a loooooooooooong time since I've seen you back up anything you've claimed. Seen a lot of what you claim proven incorrect though...

However, on the general state of reconstruction I refer you to:

http://in.news.yahoo.com/050127/137/2j9lv.html

Specific articles that comment on the phone service are hard to find in recent news, but here are some:

http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/world/10752470.htm

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050121/news_1n21water.html

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/CF37A1C0-C838-4B87-BD73-E2604EAD90AF.htm


Indeed, it has got too dangerous for most contractors to do the work, so the Army Corps of Engineers is taking over a lot of it from the private contractors initially hired for the tasks:

http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050114/ZNYT03/501140449


you'd think you would stop asking for links from me Corneliu. I always provide them. Unlike you I don't just badly misquote Fox talking points as the basis for my arguments.

Which is not to say that my opinion is always right, just that I take the time to keep abreast of current events and generally have a sound basis in the factual underpinnings of my statements even if you disagree with my conclusions.

And here's another one which shows that even the Military bases in IRaq have trouble keeping their phones working:

http://www.thehill.com/thehill/export/TheHill/News/Frontpage/012605/usarmy.html

The Army’s civil-affairs units are key to the nation-building effort. While most U.S. soldiers do not interact with Iraqis, the 411th has worked with Iraqi businessmen, city and provincial officials, and community leaders inside the Civil Military Operation Center (CMOC), a secure compound in downtown Baqubah.

On a visit one bright, warm morning this month, Iraqis walked in and out for appointments while Iraqi translators employed by the Army transcribed Arabic newspapers, letters and meeting agendas into English.

The CMOC, which lacked phone and Internet service that day, is sparse compared to most U.S. Army bases:



Now, if you haven't noticed that reconstruction is way behind schedule Corneliu, then you haven't been paying attention.

They have the opportunity. We'll see what happens in a couple hours. The voters in Afghanistan faced similar threats to their safety and voted in substantial numbers. I think the terrorist threats are in a limited area, as well. The Kurds will be out in large numbers, I'm sure, because this is something they have looked forward to for a long time.

They have the opportunity. We'll see what happens in a couple hours. The voters in Afghanistan faced similar threats to their safety and voted in substantial numbers. I think the terrorist threats are in a limited area, as well. The Kurds will be out in large numbers, I'm sure, because this is something they have looked forward to for a long time.

Yes, the Kurds will certainly be out in force, and I imagine that a lot of the Shi'ites in Southern Iraq will as well. Its that big chunk in the middle that will probably not have good turnout.

Yes, the Kurds will certainly be out in force, and I imagine that a lot of the Shi'ites in Southern Iraq will as well. Its that big chunk in the middle that will probably not have good turnout.
These are national elections, but they are still just voting for the equivalent of Congressmen or MPs, right? So the Kurds and Shi'ites aren't going to dominate the goverment soley because they have a large turnout. I'll bet that we see significant, more than 65%, turnout from the "Sunni Triangle", as well. Probably quite a bit of violence, as well.

Considering how many Iraqi women probably did not register (if their husbands told them not to) and the population between the ages of 15 and 18, then a figure like 11 million seems inflated.

Hey, it didn't bother anybody when Afghanistan had greater than 100% of it's estimated eligible voters register, why should Iraq be any different?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3600742.stm

I mean... big numbers = good right? :rolleyes:

This was my favorite part of the article the first time I read it....

On 17 August, United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan reported to the Security Council that the high rate of voter registration - more than 9.9m already enrolled - showed the political isolation of groups responsible for violence.

What he did not mention was that the number registered already exceeds the estimated total of eligible voters for the whole country.

These are national elections, but they are still just voting for the equivalent of Congressmen or MPs, right? So the Kurds and Shi'ites aren't going to dominate the goverment soley because they have a large turnout. I'll bet that we see significant, more than 65%, turnout from the "Sunni Triangle", as well. Probably quite a bit of violence, as well.

Actually, my understanding is that the election is designed such that the entire country is viewed as a single electoral district. you are just voting on a party which happens to have a given representative for your area,

Here I agree with you. Voter turnout will be high. They do want democracy otherwise, millions of people wouldn't have registered to Vote!

Doesn't that suggest that the ones who DON'T vote -don't- want democracy?

And aren't they in the MAJORITY?

As for that ass comment about banning democrats (Always good to know you're a totalitarian instead of a republican), wouldn't you WANT democrats in a place that needs a law structure, since the -actual- concept of the democratic party is supposed to be "We pass laws", with the repubs being "We don't pass laws"?

But I definately agree that there should be some heavy republican representation.

Give them their gun rights.

Bwahahaha

Right now anyone you might call a democrat in Iraq are probably the pro US factions.

But you know, fuck that, let's get a conservative theocracy going! It'll be just like Iran! Yay!
Sooo, a bunch of crazy Imams with a very nasty underground of potential democratic revolutionaries?

Give them their gun rights.

Bwahahaha
Sure, the whole country, including women, and train them all. The effects should be...interesting.

So what's the magic number that's going to determine if most Iraqi's voted or not??

3 million?
4 million?

More?
Less?

Sure, the whole country, including women, and train them all. The effects should be...interesting.

What some lovely charity should do is specifically train the women how to actually -use- the guns.

Finally, equality in Middle Eastern marriage...

"Honey, I don't care if you wear the pants in the family, I can snipe your ass from from a hundred yards. You WILL do the dishes!"

Lets face it, this "free election" is nothing but a sham to begin with. There will be NO, that's right NO international monitors, not even American ones. There will be no way to know if the vote turns out to be fair let alone democratic. As far as I can tell it won't surprise me if the ex-pats end up choosing the next Iraqi government which is total and utter B.S. given some of them haven't been to Iraq since children.

It worries me that there will be no international monitors.
That there are no American monitors is as should be -- for otherwise, people would cry foul and say the vote was fixed by those monitors.

I can also understand not wanting American soldiers right by the polling places -- it would be spun as intimidation to vote in a particular way.

Like it or not, the Iraqis wanted this vote at this particular time, and whatever they decide, it's their decision. If that decision is made by a small segment of the populace, then it's made by a small segment of the populace. The resistance (or insurgents, depending on whom you ask) are exerting their influence on the elections, and yes, voting will be affected by that. But what else can be done? Put it off longer, and it looks like there is no intention to allow the nation to rule itself.

For better or worse, this election must be held, and the choices of the Iraqi people must be respected.

It worries me that there will be no international monitors.
That there are no American monitors is as should be -- for otherwise, people would cry foul and say the vote was fixed by those monitors.

I can also understand not wanting American soldiers right by the polling places -- it would be spun as intimidation to vote in a particular way.

Like it or not, the Iraqis wanted this vote at this particular time, and whatever they decide, it's their decision. If that decision is made by a small segment of the populace, then it's made by a small segment of the populace. The resistance (or insurgents, depending on whom you ask) are exerting their influence on the elections, and yes, voting will be affected by that. But what else can be done? Put it off longer, and it looks like there is no intention to allow the nation to rule itself.

For better or worse, this election must be held, and the choices of the Iraqi people must be respected.

Allawi didn't want to postpone it so it wasn't postponed! The people do want to vote and I am sure that they'll do so. Violence? Yea it will be there but I think they'll brave it and vote.

Like it or not, the Iraqis wanted this vote at this particular time, and whatever they decide, it's their decision.

Allawi didn't want to postpone it so it wasn't postponed! The people do want to vote and I am sure that they'll do so. Violence? Yea it will be there but I think they'll brave it and vote.

I think we are in agreement. ;)

I think we are in agreement. ;)

I was in agreement with you! :)

What some lovely charity should do is specifically train the women how to actually -use- the guns.

Finally, equality in Middle Eastern marriage...

"Honey, I don't care if you wear the pants in the family, I can snipe your ass from from a hundred yards. You WILL do the dishes!"
As I said, it would be an interesting experiment in social engineering.

In the history of my country, many lives have been sacrificed for freedom and the right to vote. The Revolutionary War in our bid from separation and freedom from England. The Civil War, when countless people died for slaves’ freedom. The violence when women demanded a say in their country and their lives. The bloody riots and attacks during the movement for equal rights and voting privileges for black Americans. And, most recently, the sacrifice of scores of American troops in Afghanistan and Iraq in a long range plan to bring down regimes that harbor and finance terrorists. It is often said, but often forgotten, “Freedom isn’t free”.

I have been following this thread for the last few days and I have reached a few conclusions. Some are condemning the election, questioning its worth and its validity, not with actual concern for the future of the Iraqi people, but with an animosity for President Bush. In this thread they have more than proven that no matter how worthy the cause, if Bush is for it they’re against it…even in a bid for freedom and democracy for a people who have been oppressed for over 50 years. Let’s get a few talking points sorted out…

Iraqi Interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi, not Bush, has pushed for the election to be held as previously scheduled. He, and the Iraqi governing council, are directing Iraq. By having the elections on schedule they have denied the terrorists (I refuse to use the term “insurgents” as a large number of these people are not Iraqi) a victory in disrupting the democratic process. Secondly, and probably most importantly, a duly elected government will have the authenticity to demand that the UN and the international community take steps to stop Syria and Iran in their acts of war against Iraq. It is well known and documented that former high level Bathists from Saddam’s regime are living in these countries and supporting the violent attacks in Iraq.

These elections are for a “temporary” government. ALL parties and groups will be represented based on the percentage of votes…25% of the seats are guaranteed to women. This elected government will then draft a permanent constitution to be ratified by October 15, 2005. Then, an election for a full-term government, based on the new constitution, ratified by the Iraqi citizens, will be held by December 15, 2005. This gives the international community almost a year to get off their butts and get involved in Iraq’s bid for a better future.

It has been reported countless times (I guess some of you chose not to read those reports) that the Iraqi security forces would be at the polling places to protect the voters. They have trained long and hard, and this will be their first real test. As for the Ramadi police abandoning their post…my guess on that would be poor leadership. The security forces in other areas are staying at their posts and putting their lives on the line to protect their citizens. It also needs to be noted that the “entire” police force did not walk out.

Coalition troops are set up as a perimeter defense. The presence of coalition troops at the polling locations could rightfully have been construed as voter intimidation. This also allows the more violent engagements of terrorists wishing to stop the vote to occur away from the voters.

The actual number of people registered to vote in Iraq is 14,000,000. Previous calculations in this thread, based on flawed statistics and reasoning, are inaccurate and misleading.

It’s just minutes until the voting is over. The Iraqi election commission is estimating the voter turn out at 72% right now. At this time there are 31 deaths reported. Pretty stunning for a “publicity stunt”.

http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/international/index.ssf?/base/international-21/1107087197247470.xml&storylist=international

"Am I scared? Of course I'm not scared. This is my country," said 50-year-old Fathiya Mohammed, wearing a head-to-toe abaya.

At one polling place in Baghdad, soldiers and voters joined hands in a dance, and in Baqouba, voters jumped and clapped to celebrate the historic day. At another, an Iraqi policeman in a black ski mask tucked his assault rifle under one arm and took the hand of an elderly blind woman, guiding her to the polls.

The governor of the mostly Sunni province of Salaheddin, Hamad Hmoud Shagti, went on the radio to lobby for a higher turnout. "This is a chance for you as Iraqis to assure your and your children's future," he said.


http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/international/index.ssf?/base/international-21/1107090499256910.xml&storylist=international

Fathiya Mohammed shrugged off the incessant threats of violence and donned her head-to-toe abaya before heading to her neighborhood polling station in the small town of Askan south of Baghdad.
"This is democracy," the elderly woman said proudly, holding up a thumb stained with the purple ink used to mark those who had voted. "This is the first day I feel freedom."

Yes, this is democracy, and it is worth everything!!

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-iraq-the-vote,1,172893.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

When an unexplained boom sounded near one Baghdad voting station, some women put their hands to their mouths and whispered prayers. Others continued walking calmly to the voting stations. Several shouted in unison: "We have no fear."

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/world/3015976

"I came here to vote for our goal, which is freedom," said Abu Ahmed, a 55-year-old Shiite voter in Baqouba north of Baghdad.

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=663649

"This is a historic moment for Iraq, a day when Iraqis can hold their heads high because they are challenging the terrorists and starting to write their future with their own hands,"

Excellent - a 72%+ voter turnout

I think the Iraqis should vote to rid their country of democrats. It's too late for America to do that, but we're making progress. I hope the Iraqi nation will get a head start.
I thought that the Americans were in favour of democracy in Iraq?

I thought that the Americans were in favour of democracy in Iraq?
I think they mean Democrats, as in the Democratic Party

Excellent - a 72%+ voter turnout

It's fantastic!! This should prove that the Iraqi people do want to contribute to their country's future and are willing to risk their lives to do so. Just the realization that they have reached this achievement in less than 2 years since Saddam's fall is a landmark in achievement. I can't help but notice that those who demeaned this election as worthless and not the will of the Iraqi people are obviously absent. If the elections had failed you can be sure they would be here pointing accusatory fingers at Bush. Hypocrites.

Some interesting incidents...

*Some people walked 13 miles to vote.
*People took their children with them to the polls to teach them about the voting process and impress upon them the importance of voting.
*At one time over 1000 people were waiting in line to vote in Fallujah....in Fallujah!!

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=7475713

Even in Falluja, the Sunni city west of Baghdad that was a militant stronghold until a U.S. assault in November, a steady stream of people turned out, confounding expectations. Lines of veiled women clutching their papers waited to vote.

"We want to be like other Iraqis, we don't want to always be in opposition," said Ahmed Jassim, smiling after he voted.

http://www.politicalgateway.com/news/read.html?id=2720

UN Secretary General Kofi Annan's representative in Iraq described the election as "transparent and fair" and took heart at what he said was a high turnout.

"Even in security difficult areas, there are people lining up to vote. In the north and in the south, the turnout is particularly heavy," the UN official, Ashraf Qazi, told AFP, without providing numbers.

http://wireservice.wired.com/wired/story.asp?section=Breaking&storyId=982882&tw=wn_wire_story

Samir Hassan, 32, who lost his leg in a car bomb blast in October, was determined to vote. "I would have crawled here if I had to. I don't want terrorists to kill other Iraqis like they tried to kill me. Today I am voting for peace," he said, leaning on his metal crutches, determination in his reddened eyes.

In Sadr City, a poor Shi'ite neighborhood of northeast Baghdad, thick lines of voters turned out, women in black abaya robes in one line, men in another.

Baghdad's mayor was overcome with emotion by the turnout of voters at City Hall, where he said thousands were celebrating.

"I cannot describe what I am seeing. It is incredible. This is a vote for the future, for the children, for the rule of law, for humanity, for love," Alaa al-Tamimi told Reuters.

The election did not go well in all the polling centers, but it did in a vast majority of them.

Democracy won, terrorism lost!!

Excellent - a 72%+ voter turnout
and last i heard it was 50% registration which i also last heard was more than eligible -_-
my head hurts

and last i heard it was 50% registration which i also last heard was more than eligible -_-
my head hurts

Even here in the US the democrats had more people registered to vote in the Chicago area than there were eligible voters. This, like all elections, is not perfect. But, it is an important first step for Iraq.

Heh heh heh!

Take THAT Zeppistan!

Heh heh heh!

Take THAT Zeppistan!

He'll still say it hasn't gone as well as it has. He is one of those crazy Canadians who just can't handle an American success.

Rub that on your bald head Zep!

and your all making yourselves look much better than zeppistan by sitting around singing your own praises

losers

For the record Zooke, I am happy that more IRaqis seem to have decided to vote than expected. However, I will point out that the news stories quote the 72% from one official who has no numbers to back that up, while the ministry itself predicts 57%. (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20050130/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_the_vote_50)

An Iraqi election official said that 72 percent of eligible Iraqi voters had turned out so far nationwide.

The official, Adel al-Lami of the Independent Electoral Commission, offered no overall figures of the actual number of Iraqis who have voted to back up the claim.

After a slow start, men and women in flowing black abayas — often holding babies — formed long lines, although there were pockets of Iraq (news - web sites) where the streets and polling stations were deserted. Iraqis prohibited from using private cars walked streets crowded in a few places nearly shoulder-to-shoulder with voters, hitched rides on military buses and trucks, and some even carried the elderly in their arms.

"This is democracy," said Karfia Abbasi, holding up a thumb stained with purple ink to prove she had voted.

Officials said turnout appeared higher than expected, although it was too soon to tell for sure. Iraqi officials have predicted that up to 8 million of the 14 million voters — just over 57 percent — would participate.


So the firm number is as of yet unavailable. I hope that the number does exceed my expectations.


However, please elaborate on your complaint about my statistics regarding voter registration. Do you have a better source of the population demographics than your official government sites? Your government's own numbers put the total Iraqi population over the age of just 14 at only 15 million people. And the population is heavilly weighted towards youth with over 40% of it's population under that age. In order to have a properly registered voting population of 14 Million you need to assume that there are only 1 million IRaqis between the agest of 15 and 17, and that they achieved 100% registration of everybody of voting age. That seems rather difficult to reconcile with the many news reports that stated that registration was dificult in the Sunni areas such as Falluja because of the security issues. Indeed, even Allawi commented on that repeatedly including stating the notion that there was up to 40% of the region of Iraq in which it would prove impossible to hold the elections.

So if the numbers seem not to add up the question become who has the incorrect population figures, the American Government determination of the population of IRaq? Or the Iraqi elections committee? Given the rampant allegations of corruption that have come up from various Iraqi groups regarding the current Iraqi governing council, is it unfair of me to assume that the US governments numbers were more likely correct?

So you tell me - from what numbers and more reputable source than the US government do YOU derive the notion that they were able to fairly register 14 Million Iraqis?

He'll still say it hasn't gone as well as it has. He is one of those crazy Canadians who just can't handle an American success.

Rub that on your bald head Zep!


And to think I thought this was about the Iraqis - NOT you....

Silly me.

BTW, those of you who are taking such pleasure that I was wrong that it seems that Iraq responded better than I had hoped are amusing the hell out of me.


That fact that you seem to care more about coming to slam me than about the actual issue at hand is funny as hell!

This is a great day for humanity. One more Nation joins family of humanity in the democratic process. Isn't it wonderful that we can have a variety of opinions that we are able to freely and openly share. Now the Iraqi's have the same privilege. Now is the time for us to rejoice, not gloat. Praise God. This is a good day.

He'll still say it hasn't gone as well as it has. He is one of those crazy Canadians who just can't handle an American success.

Rub that on your bald head Zep!


Zep is bald?

This is a great day for humanity. One more Nation joins family of humanity in the democratic process. Isn't it wonderful that we can have a variety of opinions that we are able to freely and openly share. Now the Iraqi's have the same privilege. Now is the time for us to rejoice, not gloat. Praise God. This is a good day.

Holla

And to think I thought this was about the Iraqis - NOT you....
Silly me.

Oh really?

But I'm sure that it will still be heralded as a "big step" giving somebody "political capital". Political caipital = American election results. Nothing to do with Iraqi election.
Frankly, besides a PR stunt that may result in a lot of innocent people dying, Free election = publicity stunt?
the American Government stated that they would not be providing any security for the event. False. The coalition provided perimeter security in order to not appear to influence the election.
However, as far as radical dictators go, I don't think they get the option : "Anyone but George Bush" on the ballot.
However, I think you will find that groups of Americans in full armour and kit are rarely successful at being "stealthy".
But yes, they will be ready to pick up the body parts after the bombs have gone off.

YOU are the one who made it all about us (as in the US). Even now, rather than acknowledge that the US and the rest of the coalition, at great sacrifice, have helped the Iraqis achieve an historic election, you prefer to quibble over the number of registered voters. :confused: I'm using the number reported and acknowledged internationally. It may very well be inaccurate, but it's the only source number we have.

BTW, those of you who are taking such pleasure that I was wrong that it seems that Iraq responded better than I had hoped are amusing the hell out of me.
That fact that you seem to care more about coming to slam me than about the actual issue at hand is funny as hell!

I have been making a point of the issue at hand...a very successful election. What I and I believe a number of people on here feel, is the hypocrisy you have shown in you opinions of the election. Although you are privileged to live in a free and democratic nation, that you can go to the polls without fear of death, and that you can be certain that your voice will be heard, you have condemned the Iraqi elections in every way possible. You don't have to sacrifice for your rights...others did that for you...now the Iraqis are taking the risks and making the sacrifices so that their descendents can enjoy the freedoms that you enjoy. Yet, you never found one optomistic, supportive thing to say about their election. Amazing!!

BTW, those of you who are taking such pleasure that I was wrong that it seems that Iraq responded better than I had hoped are amusing the hell out of me.


That fact that you seem to care more about coming to slam me than about the actual issue at hand is funny as hell!

I am happy for Iraq as well.

But laughing at you for hating America in Iraq and dooming us to failure is just an added bonus .

This is a great day for humanity. One more Nation joins family of humanity in the democratic process. Isn't it wonderful that we can have a variety of opinions that we are able to freely and openly share. Now the Iraqi's have the same privilege. Now is the time for us to rejoice, not gloat. Praise God. This is a good day.

Yes!! Praise God!!

This election brought to you through the efforts of...

Afghanistan
Albania
Australia
Azerbaijan
Bulgaria
Colombia
Costa Rica
Czech Republic
Denmark
Dominican Republic
El Salvador
Eritrea
Estonia
Ethiopia
Georgia
Honduras
Hungary
Iceland
Italy
Japan
Kuwait
Latvia
Lithuania
Macedonia
Marshall Islands
Micronesia
Mongolia
Netherlands
Nicaragua
Palau
Panama
Philippines
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Rwanda
Singapore
Slovakia
Solomon Islands
South Korea
Spain
Turkey
Uganda
United Kingdom
United States
Uzbekistan

And most importantly...

Iraq

Note that this list includes nations that have withdrawn from Iraq. Although they are not present now, their participation earlier contributed to the success of the Iraqi elections. The brave people from all of these nations deserve appreciation for their efforts and sacrifices.

This election brought to you through the efforts of...

...
Panama
...
[/I]

Yay!

He didn't forget Poland. :)

He didn't forget Poland. :)

lol :D

Are any of you watching the video of voters in Iraq? They're singing, dancing, flashing their purple fingers in a "V for victory" sign. Maybe the majority of you aren't greatly moved by this, but I am literally crying for joy viewing the bravery and determination of these people.

Are any of you watching the video of voters in Iraq? They're singing, dancing, flashing their purple fingers in a "V for victory" sign. Maybe the majority of you aren't greatly moved by this, but I am literally crying for joy viewing the bravery and determination of these people.

Join the club.

*hands Zooke a big hat with "Iraqi Voters r ownzorz" on it*

*and a hankerchief(sp?)*

Excellent - a 72%+ voter turnout

Yep! I knew the voter turnout will be high and this proves it! :)

Yep! I knew the voter turnout will be high and this proves it! :)

I have to admit, I wasn't sure. From a number of reports I worried that the people were unused to being able to stand up for their beliefs and did not have the resolve to do so. There were so many reports of a weak Iraqi security force and a lack of committment by them. I was so afraid that a high percentage of people would be afraid to vote, and that the ones who did would not be adequately protected by the police. Obviously, the Iraqis have been grossly underestimated.

Are any of you watching the video of voters in Iraq? They're singing, dancing, flashing their purple fingers in a "V for victory" sign. Maybe the majority of you aren't greatly moved by this, but I am literally crying for joy viewing the bravery and determination of these people.

If I had an Iraqi and American Flag handy, I'd be on Main Street singing the joy of the Iraqi Elections.

If I had an Iraqi and American Flag handy, I'd be on Main Street singing the joy of the Iraqi Elections.

Don't be a loser, get out your scented markers and make one! (http://www.deskflags.com/country/1003703.jpg)

I had the grandkids make one for me, those girls sure are the artists! I have it hanging next to my large American flag in my study.

Today is a great day for freedom. Every human being should have the ability to live without oppresion, and be able to live in a democratic nation where they have a say in their nations' future! People just want to be free.

It is exhilarating to watch a historic event onfold before your eyes. This is one step in a process. Pray God that those who would hang on to the past should let go and join the process.

Don't be a loser, get out your scented markers and make one! (http://www.deskflags.com/country/1003703.jpg)

I had the grandkids make one for me, those girls sure are the artists! I have it hanging next to my large American flag in my study.

Today is a great day for freedom. Every human being should have the ability to live without oppresion, and be able to live in a democratic nation where they have a say in their nations' future! People just want to be free.

Good idea!! Or we can just go to your link and print it out. None of my grandkids are here yet and I have the artistic ability of a tree stump. :headbang:

I have to admit, I wasn't sure. From a number of reports I worried that the people were unused to being able to stand up for their beliefs and did not have the resolve to do so. There were so many reports of a weak Iraqi security force and a lack of committment by them. I was so afraid that a high percentage of people would be afraid to vote, and that the ones who did would not be adequately protected by the police. Obviously, the Iraqis have been grossly underestimated.

I had similar fears. I was sure of the eventual outcome, but worried about how bloody this step might be.

I'm definately not a fan of Bush but I have to say I got a warm fuzzy over how well the elections seem to have gone.

It is exhilarating to watch a historic event onfold before your eyes. This is one step in a process. Pray God that those who would hang on to the past should let go and join the process.

I find more and more that you and I view things much the same way. I am so thrilled to have seen this event in my lifetime. It's ramifications may well impact history for generations. This is only the first step in a long, hard, journey, but it was a giant step. We must pray that people everywhere can put aside hatred in favor of peaceful, cooperative action.

CNN reports that 72% of registered Iraqi voters turned out to the polls. That is a better turnout than any U.S. election in history. Take that, Ted Kennedy!

Yeah, because we all know Ted Kennedy hates democracy.

Let's see if this helps motivate those in Iran who want a change!

CNN reports that 72% of registered Iraqi voters turned out to the polls. That is a better turnout than any U.S. election in history.

It is a sad commentary when you remember the people that sacrificed and died so that all people in the US had equal rights and then look at the low election participation among minorities. The lack of appreciation of this privilege is most apparent in the face of what the Iraqi people have accomplished today.

yey yet another vietnam, but now i can join some anti war protests !!!! :D

yey yet another vietnam, but now i can join some anti war protests !!!! :D

?

What?

Huh?

Why are you going to protest the first free and fair elections in Iraq in...like...a gizillion years?

You hippies are silly.

Let's see if this helps motivate those in Iran who want a change!

If the other people in the mideast see all segments of the Iraqi people participating in, and directing their own government, it will have to make them ask themselves "Why can't I do that?". Isn't this questioning and a desire for freedom what created the world's great democracies?

Yeah, because we all know Ted Kennedy hates democracy.He doesn't?

You know, if you're Zeppistan, you have to be just a little embarrassed.

Democracy won and Zarqawi lost

Democracy Won and Zarqawi lost

Democracy Won and Zarqawi lost

Take that France, Canada, Germany, Russia, and all other nations that failed to support the operation to liberate Iraq!

Democracy won and Zarqawi lost

Democracy Won and Zarqawi lost

Democracy Won and Zarqawi lost

Take that France, Canada, Germany, Russia, and all other nations that failed to support the operation to liberate Iraq!

Don't rule Zarqawi out yet. He's still out there and I'm sure he has some pretty nasty things planned. Ever consider what might happen to the people who voted? They have big purple fingers to identify them. But, I'm willing to bet his days are numbered. Not only are the troops on the search for him, but maybe now the people will get a better sense of their self-worth and turn him in. But, after him there will be another one, and another after that, etc. until we either destroy, disable, or convert the savages that wish to murder, suppress, and enslave people. Bush warned us...this would be a war that will last generations, but we will win.

Yeah, because we all know Ted Kennedy hates democracy.

Now is that fair. You may not like the man, but my god he lost three brothers for democracy.

The less votes the better.

The less votes the better.

better? how?

People in Iraq need to grow a pare vote in some leaders and start taking care of their country instead of being pansies and letting the terrorists controll everything.

If they are scared to vote they are stupid life would be so much nicer for them if they could get this under control. Once they realize that voting is there savior not some raggetty freak with big bombs then Maybe the US troops could finally come home! People really need to take some action get off of their buts and get out there make a difference and VOTE!

Im just saying

CNN reports that 72% of registered Iraqi voters turned out to the polls. That is a better turnout than any U.S. election in history. Take that, Ted Kennedy!
IIRC, this includes the ex-pats. If 11 million registered and 72% of those turned out, that's ~30% of the total population living in Iraq (or possibly a bit less) which is actually less than a typical American election, which in turn has low turnout for a democratic society.

In turn, the proportional areas of Iraq suffering from lower turnout are not randomly distributed at all. We will see dissatisfaction about the results of this election, and as a simple plurality system with a variety of candidates working on "new" voting base, we're likely to see a resulting government that very faintly reflects the overall will of the Iraqi people.

Now is that fair. You may not like the man, but my god he lost three brothers for democracy.
Jack, Bobby, and ? Jack and Bobby were what made me a Democrat. But Teddy is scum. I don't know how the people of Massachusetts keep putting him in office. Not after he drowned Mary Jo Kopechne and was more worried about how to avoid the drunk driving charge.

free and fair elections in Iraq inolor]I dont think so.

*Apologises for name-dropping*

I go to school with Ghazi Al-Yawar's daughter, and she told me that she thought there would be a high turn-out for these elections. Which, according to the BBC, there has been - particularly amongst Kurds and Shias in Baghdad, Najaf and around the country. Even some in Falluja. Now that takes serious guts!

*Apologises for name-dropping*

I go to school with Ghazi Al-Yawar's daughter, and she told me that she thought there would be a high turn-out for these elections. Which, according to the BBC, there has been - particularly amongst Kurds and Shias in Baghdad, Najaf and around the country. Even some in Falluja. Now that takes serious guts!
Everyone who voted in that election is a hero. They should all be remembered in the history of Iraq.

Everyone who voted in that election is a hero. They should all be remembered in the history of Iraq.

I totally agree with you!

IIRC, this includes the ex-pats. If 11 million registered and 72% of those turned out, that's ~30% of the total population living in Iraq (or possibly a bit less) which is actually less than a typical American election, which in turn has low turnout for a democratic society.

In turn, the proportional areas of Iraq suffering from lower turnout are not randomly distributed at all. We will see dissatisfaction about the results of this election, and as a simple plurality system with a variety of candidates working on "new" voting base, we're likely to see a resulting government that very faintly reflects the overall will of the Iraqi people.

The "total population" you speak of includes people not eligible to vote due to age and other restrictions. The elections today are not for a full-term government, but for a National Assembly. This assembly is charged with writing a constitution by August 15. By October 15 the Iraqi people will again go to the polls to ratify or turn down this constitution. By December 15 there will be another election, under the constitution, to elect a full-term government.

It's true that today's election does not equally represent the will of all of the Iraqi people. Many did not vote for fear of their lives. But, those that did vote in defiance of the threats by the terrorists, dealt the insurgency a mortal blow. They have rejected the theocracy of the terrorists overwhelmingly.

The animals who attacked voters today make no sense. They have killed innocent people who merely wished to have a voice in their future. The suicide bombers claim they are martyrs killed in Allah's cause. They're not!! They're disillusioned and sadistic. The real martyrs are the people who died today for freedom.

Election attacks reported so far...

Baghdad
At least eight bombs exploded outside Baghdad polling stations, killing at least 28 people. Seven of the bombers walked up to the voting stations on foot and one used a car bomb.

Another car bomb exploded outside the justice minister's house; one security guard was killed and four others injured.

Balad
A mortar attack on a polling station killed one woman, and wounded another and her child.

Basra
A mortar shell landed near a polling station in al-Dhubbat neighbourhood, killing and injuring some people.

Baquba
A US military base north of Baquba city came under Katyusha rocket attack.

Hilla
A mortar attack killed one person.

Kirkuk
Three mortars were fired into the main airport, which is now a US army base. There were no reported casualties.

Latifiya
Mortars struck two voting stations. US troops killed one attacker and arrested 15 others.

Mosul
Six explosions, but no reported casualties.

Tal Afar, west of Mosul
One man was wounded in fighting between Iraqis and US forces.

Al-Duluiya, 70km north of Baghdad
Attacks were reported from voting stations in the city, no reported casualties.

Al-Mahawil, 80km south of Baghdad
Five people killed and 14 wounded when a bomb tore through a bus carrying voters to a polling station.

One Iraqi civilian killed and three policemen injured in mortar attack.

Polish military sources report another incident involving an explosion aboard a bus transporting voters. Three Iraqis reported killed.

Al-Muqtadiya, 100km north of Baghdad
Two attackers blew themselves up in front of voter stations

So far 41 reported killed in the name of freedom.

Jack, Bobby, and ? Jack and Bobby were what made me a Democrat. But Teddy is scum. I don't know how the people of Massachusetts keep putting him in office. Not after he drowned Mary Jo Kopechne and was more worried about how to avoid the drunk driving charge.

Joe died in WWII in what was basicaly a sucicide mission. Ok, so you believe Teddy is scum. Does that mean he hates democracy. Seems like a leap, a huge leap, especially considering the loss of his three brothers.

41 attacks and Zarqawi was saying hundreds of attacks.

Ok Zarqawi, were are these hundreds of attacks?

Democracy Won and terrorists lost!

And this just in:

Pentagon: Iraqi forces held their ground at all 7,000 polling stations!

41 attacks and Zarqawi was saying hundreds of attacks.

Ok Zarqawi, were are these hundreds of attacks?

Democracy Won and terrorists lost!

And this just in:

Pentagon: Iraqi forces held their ground at all 7,000 polling stations!

I just heard the same report! Looks like our months of training is paying off. The other day I saw an interview with one of our military big guys (don't remember his rank) who has been training Iraqi troops for the last 20 months. The reporter asked if he was a little worried about being among a bunch of armed Iraqis. His response was basically, "why should I be? These guys are tough and they're my guys".

I just heard the same report! Looks like our months of training is paying off. The other day I saw an interview with one of our military big guys (don't remember his rank) who has been training Iraqi troops for the last 20 months. The reporter asked if he was a little worried about being among a bunch of armed Iraqis. His response was basically, "why should I be? These guys are tough and they're my guys".

I saw that same report. Yea I do believe that our training is beginning to pay off and now that the elections have taken place, I think things will get better and I do believe that the people will now want to hold onto and do all that they can to continue to have elections.

I saw that same report. Yea I do believe that our training is beginning to pay off and now that the elections have taken place, I think things will get better and I do believe that the people will now want to hold onto and do all that they can to continue to have elections.

Have you noticed that the ones who most criticized the validity and viability of this election, are not saying much now. The rhetoric to this effect was mostly anti-Bush. Now, rather than put aside their hatred of Bush and celebrate the history we witnessed today, they are either pre-guessing and condemning the results of this election, or they are just avoiding the whole issue until they can come up with some other anti-Bush/anti-American issue. Sad...really sad that their hatred blinds them to the positive effect this can have on the entire world.

Have you noticed that the ones who most criticized the validity and viability of this election, are not saying much now. The rhetoric to this effect was mostly anti-Bush. Now, rather than put aside their hatred of Bush and celebrate the history we witnessed today, they are either pre-guessing and condemning the results of this election, or they are just avoiding the whole issue until they can come up with some other anti-Bush/anti-American issue. Sad...really sad that their hatred blinds them to the positive effect this can have on the entire world.

Sadly your right. To bad people can't see the positives in the world but have to focus on the negatives. Kinda reminds me of a relationship problem that I had not to long ago!

Joe died in WWII in what was basicaly a sucicide mission. Ok, so you believe Teddy is scum. Does that mean he hates democracy. Seems like a leap, a huge leap, especially considering the loss of his three brothers.
Joe, that's right. I did forget.

Maybe Teddy doesn't hate democracy. I certainly don't think he respects it. He certainly doesn't love it the way his brothers did. For Teddy, it's just a tool he can use to have power.

I can't project what effect losing his brothers had on him, I don't think we can include that in an argument about why Teddy is what he is.

To all those pointing out how many Iraqi's voted or didn't vote, might I remind everyone that even when you choose not to participate, you still have made a choice, just as in every other Democracy in the World.

You are free to not participate, just as you are free to participate. If you choose not to participate you are essentially saying you will let others decide for you, so you have nothing to complain about...

Regards,
Gaar

To all those pointing out how many Iraqi's voted or didn't vote, might I remind everyone that even when you choose not to participate, you still have made a choice, just as in every other Democracy in the World.

You are free to not participate, just as you are free to participate. If you choose not to participate you are essentially saying you will let others decide for you, so you have nothing to complain about...

Regards,
Gaar

Yep! Don't vote, you made a choice anyway. Nice post Urantia II

Iraq Inter Min:

Won't need coalition forces in 18 months!

And to the poster who called American's "lame" for being proud of what we have helped to accomplish in Iraq...

It is easy to find fault with others but I would ask how YOU might feel if over 1,400 of your fellow Country men and women had laid down their LIVES to help Iraq in this endeavor?

I think we have EARNED the Right to show a little PRIDE in what we have helped accomplish, and I don't really care how YOU view our behavior, quite frankly...

Today is an Historic day for Democracy around the World!

I say CONGRATULATIONS Iraq! You have taken your first steps towards self determination.

I to like to say congratulations to the Iraqi people on voting in this election!

Keep up the good work.

I think the Iraqis should vote to rid their country of democrats. It's too late for America to do that, but we're making progress. I hope the Iraqi nation will get a head start.

Fuck you democrats rule.

Fuck you democrats rule.

First post and you show yourself to be an ass. Hopefully your future posts go better than this one.

Have you noticed that the ones who most criticized the validity and viability of this election, are not saying much now. The rhetoric to this effect was mostly anti-Bush. Now, rather than put aside their hatred of Bush and celebrate the history we witnessed today, they are either pre-guessing and condemning the results of this election, or they are just avoiding the whole issue until they can come up with some other anti-Bush/anti-American issue. Sad...really sad that their hatred blinds them to the positive effect this can have on the entire world.


Guessing who this is directed at - actually, I DID post this morning as you well know. However I hope that you might just accept that spending the day with my family celebrating my daughter's first birthday took priority over this board.

NationStates is not my life after all - it's just a hobby.

Guessing who this is directed at - actually, I DID post this morning as you well know. However I hope that you might just accept that spending the day with my family celebrating my daughter's first birthday took priority over this board.

NationStates is not my life after all - it's just a hobby.
Some of us are just glad the thesis of this thread is wrong. And a daughter's birthday trumps just about everything. Congratulations!

Guessing who this is directed at - actually, I DID post this morning as you well know. However I hope that you might just accept that spending the day with my family celebrating my daughter's first birthday took priority over this board.

NationStates is not my life after all - it's just a hobby.

Yes, I know you posted some this morning, and I responded to your posts. If you feel that the sentiment of my post applies to you, fine, but it was actually pointed at a number of people...you included. :D

I have to admit, I went to Mass last night so that I could be home this morning to monitor the election and discuss it on here. I'm also not hosting any grandkids this weekend (how did their parents let this happen?), so I'm basically puttering around, doing a little cleaning, a bunch of cooking, channel surfing the news stations, and hanging out on here.

For your daughter's birthday...

Happy birthday to you!
Happy birthday to you!
Happy birthday dear Holly!
Happy birthday to you!

Guessing who this is directed at - actually, I DID post this morning as you well know. However I hope that you might just accept that spending the day with my family celebrating my daughter's first birthday took priority over this board.

NationStates is not my life after all - it's just a hobby.


Congrats to your daughter on her First!!

I'm still dreading Feb 3, when my son turns 13!!

Damn I feel old. :(

Zep,

I am wondering if you yourself are American or Canadian?

If Canadian, perhaps you wouldn't mind we Americans making our lists of what's wrong with Canada and the "Idiots" you choose to "Lead" you?

Or perhaps it is best if I let YOU worry about how your Country is going to deal with their growing Muslim population and the ways they are attempting to force their Religion into your Government?

I'd say that you Canadians have plenty to worry about in your own Country to be so concerned with how we choose to have ours run...

Zeppistan:

I hope you're happy to be wrong, because you are.

The Iraqis votes won't even be counted cause the only one that will get in, is the one Bush wants. He's going to make them a republic not a democracy.

Zep,

I am wondering if you yourself are American or Canadian?


Canadian - which despite this supposedly being posed as a question you obviously are aware of from the rest of your post. So given your post-count obviously you are just a puppet of someone I already know here or you would be relatively unaware from this single thread of my dislike for Bush. By resorting to such a lame tactic right off the bat you clearly are simply trolling.

If Canadian, perhaps you wouldn't mind we Americans making our lists of what's wrong with Canada and the "Idiots" you choose to "Lead" you?


Nope. Don't mind at all. Fair is fair. Hell, I might even agree with you on some instances. So go right ahead.

Or perhaps it is best if I let YOU worry about how your Country is going to deal with their growing Muslim population and the ways they are attempting to force their Religion into your Government?


There are many issues facing Canada right now. The bizzare concept that Muslims are taking over our government is pretty far down my list though. I will assume that by this you are referring to the fact that certain jurisdictions have decided to grant Muslims the right to negotiate and mediate such domestic issues as divorces internally with their Clerics rather than go through the court system. We consider this the government allowing them religious freedom rather than Muslims forcing themselves into Government since we are acutally allowing them to maintain elements of their culture where appropriate. And what most completely ignore is that while the settlement mediation may be done entirely in a comfortable, traditional atmosphere for the participants, any settlement must still meet the basic tenents of Canadian law, and that any settlement reached must still be registered through the courts.

Perhaps allowing them to negotiate a divorce with their Mullah instead of forcing them to do it with traditional lawyers seems like an infringement on the government to you, however we consider it an expression of civil rights.



I'd say that you Canadians have plenty to worry about in your own Country to be so concerned with how we choose to have ours run...

Well maybe you only have the capacity to deal with the issues of one country at a time, however many of us have come to understand that in today's global economy you are far better served by keeping as aware as possible of as many of the ongoing issues in the world as possible. Given the interrelationships between our countries I would be remiss in my duties as a business owner NOT to have an understanding of what our largest trading partner is up to and how that might affect our economy.


Willfull blindness never served any country (or citizen) very well.

But hey, if it works for you then keep it up.

Zeppistan:

I hope you're happy to be wrong, because you are.

Yes, I AM glad that I (and the President of Iraq who I quoted to start the thread) were incorrect.

Although I note that the unsubstabtiated 72% quote has been pulled from most news sources in favour of a "who knows", but the common perception is that the turnout in some areas was higher than expected.

Of course, in the Sunni triangle it was as dismal as expected too.

Yes, I AM glad that I (and the President of Iraq who I quoted to start the thread) were incorrect.

Although I note that the unsubstabtiated 72% quote has been pulled from most news sources in favour of a "who knows", but the common perception is that the turnout in some areas was higher than expected.

Of course, in the Sunni triangle it was as dismal as expected too.
Good. Get points like that across more often. While I knew it wasn't your intention, it sounded as if you wished the vote to fail.

The Iraqis votes won't even be counted cause the only one that will get in, is the one Bush wants. He's going to make them a republic not a democracy.

This is such utter hogwash, I don't know where to start!

Good. Get points like that across more often. While I knew it wasn't your intention, it sounded as if you wished the vote to fail.

Wishing something to fail and expecting it to are two different things.

Hey - I even defended GW in a thread the other day. And while it cased a moment of slight nausea ( :p ) - it was the right thing to do...

Wishing something to fail and expecting it to are two different things.

Hey - I even defended GW in a thread the other day. And while it cased a moment of slight nausea ( :p ) - it was the right thing to do...

*Dies of a heart Attack*

Wishing something to fail and expecting it to are two different things.
It doesn't matter what you think. All that matters is what you convey. Tone is everything, although I'm patronizing you in saying that, aren't I?
Hey - I even defended GW in a thread the other day. And while it cased a moment of slight nausea ( :p ) - it was the right thing to do...
What do I care? Do what you have to do.

*Dies of a heart Attack*

Well, to be fair it wasn't much of a defence....

:p

It doesn't matter what you think. All that matters is what you convey. Tone is everything, although I'm patronizing you in saying that, aren't I?



Yes - you are.

Especially if you go to page one of the thread and then skip down to pretty much my first response (Post #6) where I stated very clearly:

I hope that they get a good turnout, but it seems as though the leadership on the ground is not very hopeful.

I DID, after all, premise my opinion on that stated by the President of Iraq who was very clear that he did not feel that the elections would be well attended, and on the leadup stories that included a police force resigning and the candidates refusing to let themselves be named out of fear. Frankly, those were not encouraging signs for anyone who was reading the news.

I would like to point out, perhaps somewhat belatedly, that my post about Teddy hating democracy was sarcastic.

The "total population" you speak of includes people not eligible to vote due to age and other restrictions....which I applied the same mathematics to America. Total population/turnout ratio on 72% of 11 million registere out of 25 million is a smaller fraction of the population. I would suggest that a smaller percentage were probably registered.
The elections today are not for a full-term government, but for a National Assembly. This assembly is charged with writing a constitution by August 15. By October 15 the Iraqi people will again go to the polls to ratify or turn down this constitution. By December 15 there will be another election, under the constitution, to elect a full-term government.Determining how the constitution submitted to the populace is set up is a very critical issue... and how well (or poorly) this election was run/participated in reflects on probable future elections, if nothing else. It is unfortunate that already it seems as if we are likely to see continued war in Iraq in spite of elections.