NationStates Jolt Archive

This is what I mean:

"Opinion" is generally the word we use when we are speculating on insufficient facts. But is it a proper word to use for well known undeniable facts?

I.E. - it's a fact that 2+2=4

So I beleive 2+2=4

So is it also my opinion that 2+2=4?

thom yorke says 2+2=5

This is what I mean:

"Opinion" is generally the word we use when we are speculating on insufficient facts. But is it a proper word to use for well known undeniable facts?

I.E. - it's a fact that 2+2=4

So I beleive 2+2=4

So is it also my opinion that 2+2=4?
I'll bite...

Okay, it is your opinion that 2+2=4. You can prove it with facts..."Look! I have two objects ** and I put them together with 2 more objects ** and it makes four ****!" Now, you've backed up your opinion with proof. Yay for you! Now, someone who says, "2+2=8" needs to do the same. They probably won't be able to, but it's still their opinion (unless they change their mind, or their medication).

I'll bite...

Okay, it is your opinion that 2+2=4. You can prove it with facts..."Look! I have two objects ** and I put them together with 2 more objects ** and it makes four ****!" Now, you've backed up your opinion with proof. Yay for you! Now, someone who says, "2+2=8" needs to do the same. They probably won't be able to, but it's still their opinion (unless they change their mind, or their medication).

Thanks. But I still have a question..

After you found two objects and put them together with two other objects to factually back it up, is it still an opinion? Or is it only opinion when there are no facts backing it up?

That depends on your definition of "4"

Thanks. But I still have a question..

After you found two objects and put them together with two other objects to factually back it up, is it still an opinion? Or is it only opinion when there are no facts backing it up?
I'm gonna say: Opinion. Why? Because at any given moment, it could cease to be true...who knows...things we once thought were facts have been proven false (flat earth and all that)...I could argue that 2+2=8 and be right....if you take into account that I'm talking about rabbits, and this is occuring over a space of time:). It's my opinion the sun will rise tomorrow....you might say that is a fact....but if I die before then, will it still rise? Not for me it won't..... :eek:

I'm gonna say: Opinion. Why? Because at any given moment, it could cease to be true...who knows...things we once thought were facts have been proven false (flat earth and all that)...I could argue that 2+2=8 and be right....if you take into account that I'm talking about rabbits, and this is occuring over a space of time:). It's my opinion the sun will rise tomorrow....you might say that is a fact....but if I die before then, will it still rise? Not for me it won't..... :eek:

Insightful! Thanks. Others feel free to comment on this also and flesh it out please!

BTW, there's a town called 'Female'?

I'm being a shit, I know. Sorry.
2+2=8

Insightful! Thanks. Others feel free to comment on this also and flesh it out please!

BTW, there's a town called 'Female'?
Yup, and I'm the mayor!

No, my user name is gender neutral, and so people gave me a default male gender...it got annoying sometimes. I objected to the honorary chest hair.

But is it a proper word to use for well known undeniable facts?

No, you'd call undeniable facts "facts."

No, you'd call undeniable facts "facts."

So then is "facts" the ONLY word appropriate or are there several? If several, is "opinion" one of those several?

So then is "facts" the ONLY word appropriate or are there several? If several, is "opinion" one of those several?
It depends on your definition of opinion. Just looking at dictionary.com, it seems that the definitions of the opinion we're talking about (personal, not legal or medical) all have a qualifier of not being totally proven.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=opinion

1. A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof: “The world is not run by thought, nor by imagination, but by opinion” (Elizabeth Drew).
2. A judgment based on special knowledge and given by an expert: a medical opinion.
3. A judgment or estimation of the merit of a person or thing: has a low opinion of braggarts.
4. The prevailing view: public opinion.
5. Law. A formal statement by a court or other adjudicative body of the legal reasons and principles for the conclusions of the court.

But it is possible that #2 would still apply.

#1 would mean it's definition has no overlapping with fact.
#2 could overlap with fact still, am I right? It could be the medical expert's opinion that "taking this medication will improve your health" which can also be a fact.
#3, 4, and 5 don't seem to apply.

So what about #2, could I agreeably say that with #2 the definitions overlap?

It isn't that complicated if you all assume to have the same definition of "2", "+" and "4", but if you don't then the statement "2+2=4" doesn't even mean anything.

Proving if a statement is true or not all depends on an agreed definition of the statement.

The statement "communism is better" depends on your definition of "better" as well as "communism" for example.

EDIT: Grammar!

It isn't that complicated if you all assume to have the same definition of "2", "+" and "4", but if you don't then the statement "2+2=4" doesn't even mean anything.

Proving if a statement is true or not all depends on an agreed definition of the statement.

The statement "communism is better" depends on your definition of "better" as well as "communism" for example.

EDIT: Grammar!
I apologize if I sound mean but how does that apply?

Ok, well "2+2=4" is a fact and not an opinion, because we all (generally) agree on what is meant by "2" and "4" etc.

If you take 2 objects and all agree that there is "2" there...
Then put them with 2 more objects and all agree that there is "+2"...
Then all agree that the result (or the "=") is "4"

Then how can you argue with the statement "2+2=4" without doing a similar experiment with different results thus disproving it?

EDIT:

To prove "communism is better" or "communism is worse" you'd have to agree on some EXTREMELY complex definition of "better" or "worse" which of course we will never do (people generally don't all agree on what is "better" or "worse", hence opinion), thus we will probably never to be able to prove such statements.

Ok, well "2+2=4" is a fact and not an opinion, because we all (generally) agree on what is meant by "2" and "4" etc.

If you take 2 objects and all agree that there is "2" there...
Then put them with 2 more objects and all agree that there is "+2"...
Then all agree that the result (or the "=") is "4"

Then how can you argue with the statement "2+2=4" without doing a similar experiment with different results thus disproving it?

EDIT:

To prove "communism is better" or "communism is worse" you'd have to agree on some EXTREMELY complex definition of "better" or "worse" which of course we will never do (people generally don't all agree on what is "better" or "worse", hence opinion), thus we will probably never to be able to prove such statements.

Ok. So you're saying that if something is obviously self evident and easy to prove and agreed with by about everyone, it's not an opinion?

And you're saying that fact and opinion don't overlap anywhere?

So opinion is reserved for subjects that people disagree with?

Is this right?

But it is possible that #2 would still apply.

#1 would mean it's definition has no overlapping with fact.
#2 could overlap with fact still, am I right? It could be the medical expert's opinion that "taking this medication will improve your health" which can also be a fact.
#3, 4, and 5 don't seem to apply.

So what about #2, could I agreeably say that with #2 the definitions overlap?
#2 could, but as the definition says, its used when experts in a certain field talk about a subject.

Ok. So you're saying that if something is obviously self evident and easy to prove and agreed with by about everyone, it's not an opinion?

And you're saying that fact and opinion don't overlap anywhere?

So opinion is reserved for subjects that people disagree with?

Is this right?

Thinking about it, I suppose it only really applies to things that are self evident as you say. It wouldn't work for "God created the world".

I was always told that a fact is something that could be proven repeatedly, and an opinion was something that couldn't have facts built behind it because it was based off other emotions or feelings.


Fact: water is H2O

Opinion: Coke tastes better then Pepsi

Fact: burning oil produces CO2 and CO

Opinion: Flowers smell better then Candy.

Thinking about it, I suppose it only really applies to things that are self evident as you say. It wouldn't work for "G-d created the world".


"G-d created the world" would be a biblical fact but a scientific opinion. So I Suppose it depends on the context too.

Sorry if I sound beligerent...

So say you have the opinion that Coke tastes better than Pepsi.

Then it is scientifically proven that Coke tastes better than Pepsi.

It is no longer your opinion? You still like Coke better!

Here's another perspective:
You perceive an elephant.
There is in reality an elephant there.
You still perceive the elephant.

Is opinion the same?

I'm not saying this to defend it, I'm just finding some kinks that I still am not clear on.

Sorry if I sound beligerent...

So say you have the opinion that Coke tastes better than Pepsi.

Then it is scientifically proven that Coke tastes better than Pepsi.

It is no longer your opinion? You still like Coke better!

Here's another perspective:
You perceive an elephant.
There is in reality an elephant there.
You still perceive the elephant.

Is opinion the same?

I'm not saying this to defend it, I'm just finding some kinks that I still am not clear on.

IF there were a way to prove coke tasted better then pepsi, then it would be no longer an opinion, it would be a fact. Though proving it tastes better is impossible.

The bit about the elephant. When you see something, you theorize what you see, and then you go about gathering facts on if its real or not.

A theory is something based on an observation and then facts are gathered.

thom yorke says 2+2=5
Hail to the Thief

Hail to the Thief
thats the one

a Radiohead fan?

thats the one

a Radiohead fan?
Hell yeah.

Hell yeah.
good to hear :)