NationStates Jolt Archive

So who is this Jesus fellow?

I voted for all of the choices, myself.

jesus does not exist, religion is crap. the real Truth is Atheism. :mad:

Whee! It was all nice, even numbers... and then I came! ::evil laughter::

Some Spanish guy I believe.
And there's plenty of them.

You forgot Myrth.

jesus does not exist, religion is crap. the real Truth is Atheism. :mad:

^_o

He was and is the Son of God and the savior of humanity.

He was and is the Son of God and the savior of humanity.

Not an option, the other Jesus poll left out options, so I am leaving out some options, too.

To all the people who voted for every option, thank you, it makes it look like a lot of people voted, when really no one cares. :)

He was and is the Son of God and the savior of humanity.

That's just what God wants you to think...


*shifty eyes*

jesus does not exist, religion is crap. the real Truth is Atheism. :mad:
of course he doesnt exist, hes dead

however someone called Jesus, from Nazareth, did exist....wasnt the son of god though, just some loony

of course he doesnt exist, hes dead

however someone called Jesus, from Nazareth, did exist....wasnt the son of god though, just some loony

I read that some of the stories of Jesus just happen to also have been written about a hindu deity centuries before Jesus existed.

maybe

but the Romans crucified some guy called Jesus who was from around Galilee in about 30AD. and theres other evidence

if he was about today hed just be locked up. or have his own cult....eithers good

maybe

but the Romans crucified some guy called Jesus who was from around Galilee in about 30AD. and theres other evidence

if he was about today hed just be locked up. or have his own cult....eithers good

Oh, the site didnt claim that he didn't exist. It said that someone called "Yeshua of Nazareth" almost certainly existed. It just said that the birth story (and maybe others) resembles the corresponding story of Krishna (or someone like that).

Are none of you Christian?

ah right ok

my general response to jesus is "meh"

ah right ok

my general response to jesus is "meh"

a good response. other appropriate responses are "heh" and *sigh*.

yea "heh" and *sigh* would work as well

Some Spanish guy I believe.
And there's plenty of them.

Lol, watch Letterman when Michael Keaton was on did we?

Jesus was a rather unremarkable Jewish teacher crucified for some reason I have no clue about, it really doesn't matter why. After Jesus died, some people got together and created a religion based in a Jesus with a biograpghy rewritten to make him seem divine by assimilating stories of the Persian sun god Mithra.

Lol, watch Letterman when Michael Keaton was on did we?

Nope, my girlfreind is Hispanic, so I hear the name quite often.

Jesus is my gardener. He's a pretty cool guy. I like the smileys in this place.

:sniper:
:gundge:
:mp5:
:headbang:
:upyours:

Jesus was a rather unremarkable Jewish teacher crucified for some reason I have no clue about, it really doesn't matter why. After Jesus died, some people got together and created a religion based in a Jesus with a biograpghy rewritten to make him seem divine by assimilating stories of the Persian sun god Mithra.

*Sigh* I guess it would seem that not alot of you here are Christian, so I'll explain it for anyone who wants to hear (or read, technically).

Jesus was what the Jews called the Mesiah, but the government thought he was just an imposter stirring up trouble. Thus, they whipped him, speared him, stabbed him, spat on him, clothed him in mocking clothes, forced him to wear a crown of thorns, forced him to carry his own death (the very heavy wooden cross), nailed him to it with two other thieves and watched him die there. But, on the third day after he had been buried by his followers and his mother, he was not in the tomb. He had risen to Heaven, for the purpose to prove that we could overcome death and that eternal torment in Hell was not what awaited us. The biography (Bible), was written by his closest disciples who saw what transpired in his life and wrote it down and made him seem divine because he did the impossible. Among these miracles were:

- Turning three loaves of bread and four fish into a feast that served thousands with more to spare.
- Made the blind man see, the deaf hear, the lame walk, cured leppars, and other healing wonders.
- Rose from the dead (which is suprising enough in itself, I think).
- Turned water into wine, and other things.

He was also considered divine and as God's son because of other things that he didn't perform himself, such as the tongues of fire decending on the disciples' heads, allowing them to speak other languages to preach the word of God to those who didn't understand them before.

These things and much more is the foundation of Christianity.

I hope this explained a few things.

Jesus is hard to put into one of these categories, so I voted for them all. Just to tell you guys how confusing he is I'll quote from the Cartoon History of the Universe part II:

In fact it sometimes seemed as if there were several Jeshuas:
The Preacher of Peace, Love, and Forgiveness: "Blessed are the meek ..."
"Turn the other cheek ..." "You'll find if you will seek ..."

The Judgemental, Furious Thunderer: "Woe unto ye hypocrites!"

The Rabbi among Rabbis: "But according to I Samuel, Ch. 8, Para. 14, Subpara. 9, its okay for my people to steal grain on the sabbath, if they're hungry..." "But But But-"

The Visionary: "The kingdom of God is like a mustard seed..." "?"

The Iconoclast: "No, we don't wash our hands before meals!" "Ew. Why not?" "It's not what goes into your mouth that defiles you, its what comes out!!" "Puke and drool, I know what you mean..." "No, you don't!"

The Medical Man: "After one demon goes out, it usually comes back with seven friends.."

The Commie: "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle then for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven!!"

And-you make the call!! "Only by drinking my blood and eating my flesh shall ye be saved!" "MM!"

*Sigh* I guess it would seem that not alot of you here are Christian, so I'll explain it for anyone who wants to hear (or read, technically).

....

I hope this explained a few things.

I think most people know this already, but just don't believe it. I was taught about Jesus and Christianity in school, and I believed it while I was young and naïve, but when I got older, I began to realise it was nothing more than mythology.

*Sigh* I don't think there's any use in argueing, 'cause you're all aethiests and you don't care about what I say. :(

Jesus was a rather unremarkable Jewish teacher crucified for some reason I have no clue about, it really doesn't matter why. After Jesus died, some people got together and created a religion based in a Jesus with a biograpghy rewritten to make him seem divine by assimilating stories of the Persian sun god Mithra.

Because he challenge the powers that be.

Robert Ingersoll had an interesting bit to say about it. I don't exactly remember the quote, so I'll just paraphrase it.

The Hebrew god taught his chosen people to slaughter anyone who disagreed with his teachings. Then he made himself flesh and tried to change things. The Jewish priests had him killed. Didn't he just reap what he had sown?

Nope, my girlfreind is Hispanic, so I hear the name quite often.

Cool, you might be able to answer this question I've got :)

I know Jesus is a common hispanic name and it is pronounced 'Hey-Zues'

When a hispanic is talking about Jesus out of the Bible, do they pronounce it Jesus with a J sound or like 'Hey-Zues'?

I think most people know this already, but just don't believe it. I was taught about Jesus and Christianity in school, and I believed it while I was young and naïve, but when I got older, I began to realise it was nothing more than mythology.

Ok, one last arguement. :)

Religion is about faith, not about facts, because you can't prove faith by facts. Mythology isn't written in a book, believed, and had a whole religion built around it that has been in effect for two thousand years and is practiced world-wide by millions of people. But then, now I'm just referring to fact. It's your decision to believe in it, and I choose to do so. Your fault if your wrong, though I'm not saying that you are.

:mad: :mad: :mad: chrsitaianity is the STUPEDIST RELIGION EVER. they teach ABSTINENCE AS A GOOD THING, IT IS MOST DEFINATLY NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! no religion is true, the truth is atheism. nothing to beleive in so you cant offend anyone; it even works politically. :mad:

*Sigh* I don't think there's any use in argueing, 'cause you're all aethiests and you don't care about what I say. :(

In fairness, Christians never seem to be influenced by what atheists say either.

Cool, you might be able to answer this question I've got :)

I know Jesus is a common hispanic name and it is pronounced 'Hey-Zues'

When a hispanic is talking about Jesus out of the Bible, do they pronounce it Jesus with a J sound or like 'Hey-Zues'?

J sound, unless you're hispanic and want to pronounce it that way. Just like your name might be John with the J sound, but you could pronounce it 'Hwuan'.

In fairness, Christians never seem to be influenced by what atheists say either.

Good point.

it is true, no one cares waht anyone else says, EVEN THOUGHT EVERYONE KNOWS ATHEISM IS THE ONLY REAL TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :cool:

:mad: :mad: :mad: chrsitaianity is the STUPEDIST RELIGION EVER. they teach ABSTINENCE AS A GOOD THING, IT IS MOST DEFINATLY NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! no religion is true, the truth is atheism. nothing to beleive in so you cant offend anyone; it even works politically. :mad:

Abstinence means not having sex until you're married, not not having sex at all. It teaches this so that STD's aren't spread around. That, or because it has something to do with the whole marriage thing and the commitment, etc. Aethiesm could be viewed as a religion; you believe that there is nothing to believe, but you don't actually know, right? It's based on faith, just like Christianity. I understand your opinion, just please don't trash my religion by calling it the "STUPEDIST RELIGION EVER'.

it is true, no one cares waht anyone else says, EVEN THOUGHT EVERYONE KNOWS ATHEISM IS THE ONLY REAL TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :cool:

I care much about what other people say, I just don't choose to believe in it. :cool:

I believe in Christianity for a few reasons.

1. I was born and raised on it.
2. It seems to be a plausible thing, though I can't be certain.
3. It's comforting to know that there is someone up there watching out for you. I find solace in the prayer to God, telling him the troubles I can tell no one else (or am afraid to try). It's also a good feeling to know that you are forgiven for your sins if you only ask forgiveness.

I choose not to believe in aethiesm for the opposite of these reasons.

1. I wasn't born or raised on it.
2. It doesn't seem very plausible, considering that there are very detailed records of religions in the world. Aethiesm just doesn't fit.
3. It's not comforting to have no one to talk to, to be alone, not to have someone watching out for you, keeping you safe. It's a chilling thought.

no you dolt, abstinence definatly means NONE AT ALL. why do they worship a VIRGIN then? HUH???? :mad: :mad: :rolleyes: you just cant handle the truth. i dont care about bashing your religion because there is NO religion. my gf has the same religion but i will bash it anyway. ATHEISM!!!! :mad:

I have not faith, but :cool: knowledge.

I have not faith, but :cool: knowledge.

Knowledge of what?

Abstinence means not having sex until you're married, not not having sex at all. It teaches this so that STD's aren't spread around. That, or because it has something to do with the whole marriage thing and the commitment, etc. Aethiesm could be viewed as a religion; you believe that there is nothing to believe, but you don't actually know, right? It's based on faith, just like Christianity. I understand your opinion, just please don't trash my religion by calling it the "STUPEDIST RELIGION EVER'.


I'd prefer if atheism was not referred to as a religion. It doesn't contain a set of laws, nor does it have any texts, or ceremonies, etc. It is simply a belief in the non-existence of God, (or sometimes just a lack of belief in the existence of God).

Knowledge of what?

Interesting. I wouldn't have said that atheism is a matter of knowledge, more a victory of rational thought over wishful thinking and societal conditioning.

I'm tempted to think that that guy with the red writing is just trying to get a reaction. Maybe even a christian posting sarcastically.

I'd prefer if atheism was not referred to as a religion. It doesn't contain a set of laws, nor does it have any texts, or ceremonies, etc. It is simply a belief in the non-existence of God, (or sometimes just a lack of belief in the existence of God).

Sorry then if I offended you.

no you dolt, abstinence definatly means NONE AT ALL. why do they worship a VIRGIN then? HUH???? you just cant handle the truth. i dont care about bashing your religion because there is NO religion. my gf has the same religion but i will bash it anyway. ATHEISM!!!!

I know perfectly well what abstinence means, and it does not mean none at all. I spent an hour and a half sitting through a boring lecture about it, trust me.

To be honest, we don't worship Mary. What we do is we ask her to pary for us to God. We ask the same thing of the saints.

Even if you think there is no religion, it's only courteous not to bash it.

Interesting. I wouldn't have said that atheism is a matter of knowledge, more a victory of rational thought over wishful thinking and societal conditioning.

Where do you stand in this arguement, or are you pertaining neutrality?

3. It's comforting to know that there is someone up there watching out for you.

Of course by its very nature that would be a comforting idea, but that doesn't swing any arguments really. If believers were really being looked after like that then atrocities wouldn't happen to believers.

Heh, noticed you were getting a little deflated there being stamped down by atheists, Tioszaea. It's not a lot, but I wanted to say that I'm a christian as well, so it needn't feel like you're the lone voice.

And I do listen to atheists and what they say, it's just difficult for me to grasp how people can believe in the abscence of a benevolent creator. Yes, there is no proof, but how can you stop the human soul reaching out and asking where it came from and what is the point of this world?

I also dislike people who seem to think that as a christian, I somehow don't believe the same facts of the world around as they do, like what archaeology and any other science has to prove. I take it as fact, just like everybody else. I just believe that there is a greater force behind it all that makes our lives worth living. And remember that there are some things that cannot be proved or disproved.

Where do you stand in this arguement, or are you pertaining neutrality?

I am atheist, if that's what you mean.

:mad: :mad: :mad: chrsitaianity is the STUPEDIST RELIGION EVER. they teach ABSTINENCE AS A GOOD THING, IT IS MOST DEFINATLY NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! no religion is true, the truth is atheism. nothing to beleive in so you cant offend anyone; it even works politically. :mad:

Errrrrrr, why out of all the possible things to pick on in organised religon, why did you rant so insanely about abstinence? Just curious.

:mad: :mad: :mad: chrsitaianity is the STUPEDIST RELIGION EVER. they teach ABSTINENCE AS A GOOD THING, IT IS MOST DEFINATLY NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! no religion is true, the truth is atheism. nothing to beleive in so you cant offend anyone; it even works politically. :mad:

I'll ignore that and not say that's the most idiotic and most remarkably underinformed thing I've ever heard ever. Atheists are people who, for some reason that may or may not involve they're total lack thereof (of reason, nimrod),fail to realize the obvious. Atheism is as much a dead end as, say, a Jim Jones Guyana Vacation. Not believing in God is a poor, poor, oh-so-very-very poor excuse of screwing the idea of God sideways.

Why do I have the feeling that all of you recieved the idea of God more from Saturday Morning Cartoons and heavily sedated Sunday School teachers instead of going straight to the source, reading the book (there are novels longer and more boring than it is) and cross-checking scripture with archeological findings... and self introspection? I don't suppose you can learn Dickens' "A Christmas Carol" by watching the "He-Man: Masters of the niverse" Christmas Special. And I'll tell you something - reading the Cliff Notes version isn't anywhere the same either.

Atheism is nothing but the result of incorrect theology. Everybody who got it right continued to believe in God, lived their lives according to his will, prospered in his blessing and his peace, eventually making the world a tad bit more liveable. People who got it slightly less wrong than atheists did, however, launched the bloody crusades, the lousy gits.

And about abstinence, only a total retard would fail to point out that it's the ONLY fool-proof plan of controlling the population, not contracting STD's, not having unwanted pregnancies, giving time to develop proper family-rearing skills, giving time to developing relationships that doesn't involve just effing his/her tiny little brains out and it also works as extended foreplay until the time comes when folk become MORALLY OBLIGED to eff the little brains out of your spouse (the Bible, unlike a number of Churches who enjoy adding stuff where they're not supposed to, endorses abstinence until Marriage. After that, its becomes a sin NOT to do the Horizontal Samba).

Atheists are much like idiots. Because its impolite to simply say they are. :)

I am atheist, if that's what you mean.

Got it.

I don't think this aetheism (I keep wondering if I spelled that wrong.. I think it's the 'e') vs. Christianity is going to go anywhere, so I'll just say that I respect and understand why you think what you think and why you do what you do to the extent that I don't have to pester you with any more questions about it. I hope you feel the same way. Arivanos!

Errrrrrr, why out of all the possible things to pick on in organised religon, why did you rant so insanely about abstinence? Just curious.

Maybe he has Christian parents? Or maybe his girlfriend does.

Got it.

I don't think this aetheism (I keep wondering if I spelled that wrong.. I think it's the 'e') vs. Christianity is going to go anywhere, so I'll just say that I respect and understand why you think what you think and why you do what you do to the extent that I don't have to pester you with any more questions about it. I hope you feel the same way. Arivanos!

Yes, I know the feeling. These arguments do not seem to get anywhere.

As for the spelling, it is "atheism". It is formed from "a-" (meaning without) and theism (from "theos", greek for god).

I'll ignore that and not say that's the most idiotic and most remarkably underinformed thing I've ever heard ever. Atheists are people who, for some reason that may or may not involve they're total lack thereof (of reason, nimrod),fail to realize the obvious. Atheism is as much a dead end as, say, a Jim Jones Guyana Vacation. Not believing in God is a poor, poor, oh-so-very-very poor excuse of screwing the idea of God sideways.

Why do I have the feeling that all of you recieved the idea of God more from Saturday Morning Cartoons and heavily sedated Sunday School teachers instead of going straight to the source, reading the book (there are novels longer and more boring than it is) and cross-checking scripture with archeological findings... and self introspection? I don't suppose you can learn Dickens' "A Christmas Carol" by watching the "He-Man: Masters of the Universe" Christmas Special. And I'll tell you something - reading the Cliff Notes version isn't anywhere the same either.

I would agree, except for the fact that it was their own decision. In regarding the cross-checking, not many people have the curiosity or the will to do so. But I do like the He-Man comparison. :D

Yes, I know the feeling. These arguments do not seem to get anywhere.

As for the spelling, it is "atheism". It is formed from "a-" (meaning without) and theism (from "theos", greek for god).

Thanks for making that clear. You know, people would get along much better if they would just accept someone else for who they were regardless of what gods the did (or did not) worship. You seem like a very intelligent person, but our religions (or lack thereof) keep conflicting. It's frustrating.

Atheists are people who, for some reason that may or may not involve they're total lack thereof (of reason, nimrod),fail to realize the obvious. Atheism is as much a dead end as, say, a Jim Jones Guyana Vacation. Not believing in God is a poor, poor, oh-so-very-very poor excuse of screwing the idea of God sideways.

Actually, I believe that it is religious people who fail to realise the obvious, or rather, they ignore the obvious, because a belief in the benevolent father of all is more comforting.

Also, calling Atheists idiots, and being dismissive of our arguments greatly reduces your credibility.

Maybe he has Christian parents? Or maybe his girlfriend does.
Maybe his girlfriend won't put out and that's the excuse she is using :)

Thanks for making that clear. You know, people would get along much better if they would just accept someone else for who they were regardless of what gods the did (or did not) worship. You seem like a very intelligent person, but our religions (or lack thereof) keep conflicting. It's frustrating.

Thank you for your compliment, I agree with what you say about acceptance.

- Turning three loaves of bread and four fish into a feast that served thousands with more to spare.

If I remember the story correctly, it was only a few dozen people at most, not thousands.

*Sigh* I don't think there's any use in argueing, 'cause you're all aethiests and you don't care about what I say.

Auffly nice jump to conclusions there, I'm a polytheist, so pfft.

Cool, you might be able to answer this question I've got

I know Jesus is a common hispanic name and it is pronounced 'Hey-Zues'

When a hispanic is talking about Jesus out of the Bible, do they pronounce it Jesus with a J sound or like 'Hey-Zues'?

All thrice times I've heard a spanish person say it in that context, it's been with the J sound.

Christanzonia, you know Atheism can be counted as a religion, since it pertains to a belief of spiritual nature (Believing there is nothing is still a belief regarding that nothing). So that would make Atheism wrong, or you trying to push your religious views onto others, which is bad.

Tioszaea - there is at least one other person on this forums who's Christian...Catholic more specifically

Actually, I believe that it is religious people who fail to realise the obvious, or rather, they ignore the obvious, because a belief in the benevolent father of all is more comforting.

Could you please give me an example, besides evolution, because it is possible to be a good Christian and believe in evolution...as long as you believe that God had some part in it.

If I remember the story correctly, it was only a few dozen people at most, not thousands.

It's simple. You don't remember correctly. :D

Oh, and if you want proof, click here (http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?Arivanos)

Christanzonia embarasses atheists the way Commando2 embarasses Christians. :gundge:

Even though I didn't post this thread, I have this to say

TO MY KNOWLEDGE THIS WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE THE CHRISTIANS AND ATHEISTS FLAMING EACHOTHER THREAD! THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE A DISCUSSION OF VARIOUS CRAZY VIEWS ABOUT JESUS! IF YOU WANT TO DEBATE ABOUT WHY OTHER PARTS OF CHRISTIANITY ARE GOOD OR BAD YOU CAN GO TO A DIFFERENT THREAD! AND WHY HAS NO ONE COMMENTED ON MY EXTREMELY ON-TOPIC AND FUNNY REPLY I POSTED EARLIER! IT WAS GOOD!

Could you please give me an example, besides evolution, because it is possible to be a good Christian and believe in evolution...as long as you believe that God had some part in it.

What I mean is, the absence of God seems very apparent to me, but I can understand how someone might believe in God anyway, because they wish him to exist. They allow this wishful thinking to override logic.

Even though I didn't post this thread, I have this to say

TO MY KNOWLEDGE THIS WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE THE CHRISTIANS AND ATHEISTS FLAMING EACHOTHER THREAD! Blah blah blah

Then you'll be pleased to hear that I have not flamed anyone, and the christian with whom most of my discussion has been conducted has not flamed either.

Even though I didn't post this thread, I have this to say

AND WHY HAS NO ONE COMMENTED ON MY EXTREMELY ON-TOPIC AND FUNNY REPLY I POSTED EARLIER! IT WAS GOOD!

If it was meant to be funny, then you expect too much of me. If anything, I found it offensive.

Tioszaea, I'm Christian as well so if you need help against some of these rude unbelievers just let me know.

It's simple. You don't remember correctly. :D

Oh, and if you want proof, click here (http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?Arivanos)


Lol, nice one.

NET VAMPIRE!!!

Lol.

Anyway, I was trying to remember from the stories my Grandmere used to read me when I was young. All the Bible stories, in Childrens fashion!

Its nice to find a thread (espescially a religious debate) that don't dissolve into flame wars.

What I mean is, the absence of God seems very apparent to me, but I can understand how someone might believe in God anyway, because they wish him to exist. They allow this wishful thinking to override logic.

Well the Catholic viewpoint is that the existance of God CAN be confirmed by logic...which being a Catholic, i believe...but the question of God vs. logic is a philosopher's field day...

If you really wanted to be French, the title would read 'Deuxieme Partie.'

Aside from that, I think its poor for to start a poll just to incite anger among a certain group, whether your an atheist insulting christianity, or a christian insulting atheism. That being said, some of those poll options were fairly humorous.

Then you'll be pleased to hear that I have not flamed anyone, and the christian with whom most of my discussion has been conducted has not flamed either.

Thank you. :)

Tioszaea, I'm Christian as well so if you need help against some of these rude unbelievers just let me know.

Only one of them is rude, and I think that's been taken care of. Your offer for help is appreciated though.

Its nice to find a thread (espescially a religious debate) that don't dissolve into flame wars.

The only reason it doesn't dissolve into flame wars is because some can interperate what the other is trying to say. Other can't, and those are the ones who flame. Also, I think it's boiled down to more of a religious discussion rather than a debate. I've never actually sat down and talked to an atheist.

I'm not an Atheist, but I am no Christian either.

I confess myself a worshipper of Mazda, a follower of Zarathushtra, one who hates the Daevas and obeys the laws of Ahura;
For sacrifice, prayer, propitiation, and glorification unto [Havani], the holy and master of holiness;
For sacrifice, prayer, propitiation, and glorification unto [Savanghi and Visya], the holy and masters of holiness;
For sacrifice, prayer, propitiation, and glorification unto the Masters of the days, of the periods of the day, of the months, of the seasons, and of the years;
Unto AHURA MAZDA, bright and glorious, be propitiation, with sacrifice, prayer, propitiation, and glorification.

DAMN CAPS LOCK!!!

Its nice to find a thread (espescially a religious debate) that don't dissolve into flame wars.

Indeed. Very pleasant.


Well the Catholic viewpoint is that the existance of God CAN be confirmed by logic...which being a Catholic, i believe...but the question of God vs. logic is a philosopher's field day...

Proving the existence of God by logic would be rather difficult, since one of the premises is that there is no observable evidence of God. In my opinion, that strongly suggests that a God does not exist. If one were to exist, he would be perfectly welcome to show his existence to me, but since no such existence is shown, I must assume either that there is no God, or (less likely) there is one that wants me to believe he doesn't exist.

The Annunaki and the Igigi own you all >.>

And so does my girlfreind's cousin named Jesus... I don;t know if she has one, but I'm willing to be money on it, since it seems to be law that all Hispanic families have a Jesus in it.

Did you mean my use of the word 'Arivanos'? I just used it because it sounded neat, and I didn't know if it actually meant anything. I might have heard it somewhere..

No, he was referring to the title of the topic.

No, he was referring to the title of the topic.

Ah, it makes sense now.

Proving the existence of God by logic would be rather difficult, since one of the premises is that there is no observable evidence of God. In my opinion, that strongly suggests that a God does not exist. If one were to exist, he would be perfectly welcome to show his existence to me, but since no such existence is shown, I must assume either that there is no God, or (less likely) there is one that wants me to believe he doesn't exist.


Easy answer..

"When you've done things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." God, from Futurama.

Easy answer..

"When you've done things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." God, from Futurama.

If by "easy", you mean "seemingly irrelevant", and "meaningless without explanation" then yeah :D.

*Sigh* I guess it would seem that not alot of you here are Christian, so I'll explain it for anyone who wants to hear (or read, technically).

Jesus was what the Jews called the Mesiah, but the government thought he was just an imposter stirring up trouble. Thus, they whipped him, speared him, stabbed him, spat on him, clothed him in mocking clothes, forced him to wear a crown of thorns, forced him to carry his own death (the very heavy wooden cross), nailed him to it with two other thieves and watched him die there. But, on the third day after he had been buried by his followers and his mother, he was not in the tomb. He had risen to Heaven, for the purpose to prove that we could overcome death and that eternal torment in Hell was not what awaited us. The biography (Bible), was written by his closest disciples who saw what transpired in his life and wrote it down and made him seem divine because he did the impossible. Among these miracles were:

- Turning three loaves of bread and four fish into a feast that served thousands with more to spare.
- Made the blind man see, the deaf hear, the lame walk, cured leppars, and other healing wonders.
- Rose from the dead (which is suprising enough in itself, I think).
- Turned water into wine, and other things.

He was also considered divine and as God's son because of other things that he didn't perform himself, such as the tongues of fire decending on the disciples' heads, allowing them to speak other languages to preach the word of God to those who didn't understand them before.

These things and much more is the foundation of Christianity.

I hope this explained a few things.


That explained nothing but the stuff you choose to believe. I find it funny that people feel sorry for Jesus being torchered and killed for claiming to be an all powerful being. The Church has gone hundreds of years in power, doing the exact same thing to anybody who has claimed to being a Messiah, hypocritical if you ask me. A lot of what you said is still historically unfounded, and so you can't really say that it is the foundation of Christianity, since the foundation is still just speculation left to *faith* as lay people would put it. I may not be Christian, but I've gone to Catholic school my entire life, and a lot of what I've been fed is just general ideas of what could be possible, but with little proof backing it. In my opinion, the idea of an almighty and benevolent power is a good thing at times, but this is 2005 and a lot of what used to be unexplainable but by gods and mystic forces is explainable by science, and it's time for people to move on.

That explained nothing but the stuff you choose to believe. I find it funny that people feel sorry for Jesus being torchered and killed for claiming to be an all powerful being. The Church has gone hundreds of years in power, doing the exact same thing to anybody who has claimed to being a Messiah, hypocritical if you ask me. A lot of what you said is still historically unfounded, and so you can't really say that it is the foundation of Christianity, since the foundation is still just speculation left to *faith* as lay people would put it. I may not be Christian, but I've gone to Catholic school my entire life, and a lot of what I've been fed is just general ideas of what could be possible, but with little proof backing it. In my opinion, the idea of an almighty and benevolent power is a good thing at times, but this is 2005 and a lot of what used to be unexplainable but by gods and mystic forces is explainable by science, and it's time for people to move on.

It's kind of hard not to feel sorry for someone to be tortured. And to my knowledge, there has only been one person (or at least one person recorded in history) that has claimed to be the mesiah. Crusifixition (or however you spell it) was the ultimate punishment handed out, not just for those who claimed to be the mesiah. As for science, faith and facts just don't work well together, so usually you rely on one or the other, and I rely on faith.

If by "easy", you mean "seemingly irrelevant", and "meaningless without explanation" then yeah :D.


I thought that was the definition of easy.

Can't ignore the fact that Futurama is on to something, and that something is that catroons have too much impact on us.

And about abstinence, only a total retard would fail to point out that it's the ONLY fool-proof plan of controlling the population, not contracting STD's, not having unwanted pregnancies, giving time to develop proper family-rearing skills, giving time to developing relationships that doesn't involve just effing his/her tiny little brains out and it also works as extended foreplay until the time comes when folk become MORALLY OBLIGED to eff the little brains out of your spouse (the Bible, unlike a number of Churches who enjoy adding stuff where they're not supposed to, endorses abstinence until Marriage. After that, its becomes a sin NOT to do the Horizontal Samba).

Bit off topic, but I avoided screwing my girlfriend (of 2 weeks) before she moved (this weekend) due to reasons similar to this, but they werent instilled into me by christians. I learned it from school (god-fricken-damned education), and the ideas that it would be bad on my mental health probably would cause it to be bad on my mental health. Inverse placebo effect, you might call it.

like i said, bit off-topic.

Bit off topic, but I avoided screwing my girlfriend (of 2 weeks) before she moved (this weekend) due to reasons similar to this, but they werent instilled into me by christians. I learned it from school (god-fricken-damned education), and the ideas that it would be bad on my mental health probably would cause it to be bad on my mental health. Inverse placebo effect, you might call it.

like i said, bit off-topic.

Abstinence isn't exclusive to Christianity, but it's just found more frequently there.

Not saying it was friom Christians.

All good things (including knowledge) comes from God.

And as far as the obvious is concerned, it's not a "touchy-feely" thing.
Science. Philosophy... it all adds up.

Jesus...don't exist

Are none of you Christian?

Baptist, but close enough

and as someone once said to me "i havent enough faith to be an Atheist"

jesus does not exist, religion is crap. the real Truth is Atheism. :mad:
I find it appalling that people like you are not only allowed to live, but also to reproduce. JESUS IS THE MOST DOCUMENTED PERSON EVER!!!!! How can you even suggest that this man was not real? Feel free to doubt his divinity, but his existence is concrete.

"i havent enough faith to be an Atheist"

Atheism doesn't require faith, just the courage to accept something even if there is a more comfortable, but less logical alternative.

I find it appalling that people like you are not only allowed to live, but also to reproduce. JESUS IS THE MOST DOCUMENTED PERSON EVER!!!!! How can you even suggest that this man was not real? Feel free to doubt his divinity, but his existence is concrete.


His existance is not concrete, it's merely more likely.

I can spend the rest of my life writing scores of books about a guy I made up.. let's call him Joe Nono, and in 2000 years I'm sure people will think Joe Nono was a real person, and claim his existance was concrete because of all the hundreds of books I wasted my life on.

Just because it's written, doesn't make it true.

Oh how can I forget the logic in Atheism?
How can I forget that existence without precedence, being without source and form without purpose could be so logical!

Just as logical as finding a computer appear preassembled with a Pentium XIV processor and a 3D holographic monitor on a deserted beach somewhere off Oahu and citing that natural forces assembled it from the silicon in the sand.

Oh how can I forget the logic in Atheism?
How can I forget that existence without precedence, being without source and form without purpose could be so logical!

Just as logical as finding a computer appear preassembled with a Pentium XIV processor and a 3D holographic monitor on a deserted beach somewhere off Oahu and citing that natural forces assembled it from the silicon in the sand.

Natural forces cant make computers, but they can make the beach itself.

Anyway, I must have accidentally forgot that I mentioned the creation of life/the universe. Or maybe, I didn't write anything about it at all. Maybe, just maybe, I was talking about the non-existence of God. The logic I'm talking about does not even require knowledge of scientific processes like planet formation, evolution, etc. The logic I'm talking about is that if there was a God, how exactly is it, that I experience a reality suspiciously like one in which no God exists? Please don't change the subject.

I'm far from a religious man, however I do have faith in something larger. What exactly I cannot say and as such it has allowed me to be a lot more open minded than others. However one thing that I have noticed is that Atheism is defined as an absence of religion, this in itself is contradictory, you see by having the beliefs that one does when associated with atheism is enough to be classified as having a religion. So, atheists are people too, just stupid people who can't identify that their very system of beliefs which they follow is enough to contradict those beliefs and as such their heads should have exploded long ago. Now on to the fact that indeed the same can be said of other religions. Let's look at Christianity, their holy book was written far before the version which they now claim as the standard, their current edition was rewritten by a demented king so he could divorce his wife. Now knowing this, isn't it also possible that others had rewritten portions of the bible previously, meaning that the bible itself could simply be a collection of totally ficticous stories that someone decided to base a faith upon. So although I am far from Atheist, the only reason I don't have a religion right now is that none of them have gotten it right, and most likely never will.

Hence, I find this one of the most amusing polls ever conceived by man and I do thank you for making my day.

Also not having time to properly spell check my post I cannot verify that every word is spelled correctly but for the record "STUPIDEST" is not a word and tortured is spelled as you see it seven words ago. It really pisses me off to have people posting opinions and misspelling their words that just firmly discredits your position assuming you were credible in the first place.

Atheism is not defined as "lack of religion". It is a lack of belief in God. "A-" = without "theos" = god.

Oh how can I forget the logic in Atheism?
How can I forget that existence without precedence, being without source and form without purpose could be so logical!

Just as logical as finding a computer appear preassembled with a Pentium XIV processor and a 3D holographic monitor on a deserted beach somewhere off Oahu and citing that natural forces assembled it from the silicon in the sand.
Given infinite time, it will happen. That's why I'm searching all the beaches around Oahu. I wants me a Pentium 14 proccessor!

Are none of you Christian?i am

Jesus Is The Son Of God. He's not a myth or anything else you screwed up little atheists think...

Jesus Is The Son Of God. He's not a myth or anything else you screwed up little atheists think...

And how did you come to this conclusion? I am eager to see your evidence, and how you analyzed it.

There probobly are christians out their. (me) But the board dosen't seem to be able to handle them without resorting to flame so they proborbly keep their mouth shut........(I obviously haven't learned yet)

There probobly are christians out their. (me) But the board dosen't seem to be able to handle them without resorting to flame so they proborbly keep their mouth shut........(I obviously haven't learned yet)

I am happy to talk to christians without flaming them. I am just dismayed by how disrespectful many of the forum's christians are toward atheists.

Yes that is a shame.......I find it disgracfull how people who call themselves christians can so easily point out peoples flaws and try to Guilt people into repentance.......Don't missunderstand me....some of the people who post here DESRVE to be flamed....but the random...."I hate Jesus because he stinks" just ware at me.

And how did you come to this conclusion? I am eager to see your evidence, and how you analyzed it.

I don't have to "Analyze" anything because it's pretty evident when you look back through history..Cold Hard facts prove it..And If any one could read anymore there's a certain book called "The Bible" Which gives an explaination... Im just curious why everyone wants to disprove he even existed?

I want one of those too.

And how about natural forces?
Who made those?
And how about the LAW OF ENTROPHY (which is a law and not a theory). If nothing existed then something did, wouldn't it go directly againts the Universe's innate compulsion to systematically start breakind down everything that is before it was? Same thing goes with the LAWS OF MOTION. If everything wasn't, why is it? Wouldn't it be more logical if everything continued to not be?

And why is it that while it is rare to find a Christian with a passable grasp of Modern Science, there are absolutely NO atheists with the correct Biblical concept of God?

Get me an Atheist and let him cite what is Illogical about God. A Christian only marginally knowledgeable about scripture would say "Oh... God is unfathomable and we can't know for sure!". That, my friends, is partial bull. Not full bull, just partial bull. God's ways are not our ways so it can't be fully understood. BUT THE BIBLE ALSO SAYS THAT GOD DOES NOT HIDE HIS MYSTERIES TO THOSE WHO SEEK IT. God is knowable just enough to be a close personal friend. And knowable just enough for everything to make sense. This is why a person who did the prescribed Bible reading can answer diatribes against the Lord.
Properly.
Provided that one forgets that mangled image of God people creatred in their own image.

"Oooh, a loving God will NEVER allow suffering because he wants to cuddle his wee children forever and ever". Fiddlesticks.

I don't have to "Analyze" anything because it's pretty evident when you look back through history..Cold Hard facts prove it..And If any one could read anymore there's a certain book called "The Bible" Which gives an explaination... Im just curious why everyone wants to disprove he even existed?

Where are these "cold hard facts" you speak of? I have never seen them.
And what makes you think that the content of the bible is accurate?
I wouldn't say Jesus never existed, but I do not believe there is a God.

Where are these "cold hard facts" you speak of? I have never seen them.
And what makes you think that the content of the bible is accurate?
I wouldn't say Jesus never existed, but I do not believe there is a God.

Well let me ask you this... Where did Humanity come from then? Where did the world come from? Do you just believe we just appeared all of a sudden out of thin air?

I want one of those too.

And how about natural forces?
Who made those?
And how about the LAW OF ENTROPHY (which is a law and not a theory). If nothing existed then something did, wouldn't it go directly againts the Universe's innate compulsion to systematically start breakind down everything that is before it was? Same thing goes with the LAWS OF MOTION. If everything wasn't, why is it? Wouldn't it be more logical if everything continued to not be?

And why is it that while it is rare to find a Christian with a passable grasp of Modern Science, there are absolutely NO atheists with the correct Biblical concept of God?

Get me an Atheist and let him cite what is Illogical about God. A Christian only marginally knowledgeable about scripture would say "Oh... God is unfathomable and we can't know for sure!". That, my friends, is partial bull. Not full bull, just partial bull. God's ways are not our ways so it can't be fully understood. BUT THE BIBLE ALSO SAYS THAT GOD DOES NOT HIDE HIS MYSTERIES TO THOSE WHO SEEK IT. God is knowable just enough to be a close personal friend. And knowable just enough for everything to make sense. This is why a person who did the prescribed Bible reading can answer diatribes against the Lord.
Properly.
Provided that one forgets that mangled image of God people creatred in their own image.

"Oooh, a loving God will NEVER allow suffering because he wants to cuddle his wee children forever and ever". Fiddlesticks.


Good call man.

It is very true...One of the fundamental laws of Physics states that Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it only changes from one form to another.

From a purely logical stand-point is it more logical that two pieces of matter with no supernatural potential at all that just ALWAYS EXISTIED (contrary to Dalton's 1st Law) became superheated and exploded scattering a near infinite amount matter through the univeres?

OR

Is it logical that a being that exist outside any Law of nature or physics created matter.........

I want one of those too.

And how about natural forces?
Who made those?

Nobody made them. There has never been anything to show that the laws of physics need a God to operate.


And how about the LAW OF ENTROPHY (which is a law and not a theory). If nothing existed then something did, wouldn't it go directly againts the Universe's innate compulsion to systematically start breakind down everything that is before it was? Same thing goes with the LAWS OF MOTION. If everything wasn't, why is it? Wouldn't it be more logical if everything continued to not be?
I said that this was not about the origin of the universe, but I'll help you anyway. Big Bang theory DOES NOT SAY that there was no universe and then one appeared. Time is a property of the universe, so it cannot exist before the universe. This could mean that time had a start point, at which, the energy from which the universe formed already existed


And why is it that while it is rare to find a Christian with a passable grasp of Modern Science, there are absolutely NO atheists with the correct Biblical concept of God?

Get me an Atheist and let him cite what is Illogical about God. A Christian only marginally knowledgeable about scripture would say "Oh... God is unfathomable and we can't know for sure!". That, my friends, is partial bull. Not full bull, just partial bull. God's ways are not our ways so it can't be fully understood. BUT THE BIBLE ALSO SAYS THAT GOD DOES NOT HIDE HIS MYSTERIES TO THOSE WHO SEEK IT. God is knowable just enough to be a close personal friend. And knowable just enough for everything to make sense. This is why a person who did the prescribed Bible reading can answer diatribes against the Lord.
Properly.
Provided that one forgets that mangled image of God people creatred in their own image.

"Oooh, a loving God will NEVER allow suffering because he wants to cuddle his wee children forever and ever". Fiddlesticks.

Ah, but I'm wasn't saying that the concept of God is illogical. I was saying that believing him to exist is illogical. I do not reject God. Do not make that mistake. If God came to me right now, I would welcome him. However, I do not believe that he exists. He has never made his existence apparent to me. Not even when I used to believe that he did exist.

Why should I believe that God exists on your word, or the word of the bible, when everything that is not made of words is showing me that he does not?
And in case you still don't understand, I am saying that none of the things that I perceive around me are God. And being all-powerful, God wouldn't really have any trouble making me perceive him, would he? Especially since I like the idea of God, and think it would be good if he did exist.

Is it logical that a being that exist outside any Law of nature or physics created matter.........

I'd appreciate if you'd explain how a being can exist outside of the laws of physics, before you start talking about what that being does.

Okay. Fine.

I'm sorry for flaming atheists. Someone else is in charge of doing that. Not me. I love atheists as I'm supposed to. I'll offer one a blood transfusion if the need arises. There are good atheists out there who I know would do the same for me and, for the record, I will never find any irony in this.

Good deeds are not a requisite for what I believe is heaven. It is just simple defiance to our weak human nature to wish to bite other people's heads off.

Atheists are not stupid people. They are actually very intelligent and I find it intellectually stimulating to talk with them. Perhaps this will incur some more ill will but, in my opinion, it takes the most intelligent of people to make the biggest of mistakes.

God is real and has given man the right to think otherwise. I serve him as Boss and UberEmployer and it is none of my business what he allows and doesn't allow to happen. Whether you think this is loony speak or not, I will not hold this against you. All I can say is that if finding God in personal experience can't convince you, and if long discussions of the proof of God in Physics, Chemistry, Mathematics and Biology doesn't help, I could always just treat you to a bar of chocolates and we can call it a day.

On another note, I do not find it appaling to be outspoken in their faith - Theist or Atheist. If we so believe in anything, should we not have the guts to defend it? After all, we are human.

And how about natural forces?
Who made those?
And how about the LAW OF ENTROPHY (which is a law and not a theory). If nothing existed then something did, wouldn't it go directly againts the Universe's innate compulsion to systematically start breakind down everything that is before it was? Same thing goes with the LAWS OF MOTION. If everything wasn't, why is it? Wouldn't it be more logical if everything continued to not be?

Alright, I try not to get in to these kind of arguements, but I have to say something:

Who created God? And if God had a creator, who created that person? And if you can answer that question, who created him? At some point in history something or sombody had to have appeared without a creator, by chance. Even if "God" did create Earth, the fact that you believe everything had a creator is not logical. Even if you found the person who created God's creator, who created him?

I'd appreciate if you'd explain how a being can exist outside of the laws of physics, before you start talking about what that being does.

For us ....it isn't But that IS the very Meaning of the word supernatural....beyond nature, beyond physics.

I'll admit it isn't rational but it IS logical.

Okay. Fine.

I'm sorry for flaming atheists. Someone else is in charge of doing that. Not me. I love atheists as I'm supposed to. I'll offer one a blood transfusion if the need arises. There are good atheists out there who I know would do the same for me and, for the record, I will never find any irony in this.

Good deeds are not a requisite for what I believe is heaven. It is just simple defiance to our weak human nature to wish to bite other people's heads off.

Atheists are not stupid people. They are actually very intelligent and I find it intellectually stimulating to talk with them. Perhaps this will incur some more ill will but, in my opinion, it takes the most intelligent of people to make the biggest of mistakes.

God is real and has given man the right to think otherwise. I serve him as Boss and UberEmployer and it is none of my business what he allows and doesn't allow to happen. Whether you think this is loony speak or not, I will not hold this against you. All I can say is that if finding God in personal experience can't convince you, and if long discussions of the proof of God in Physics, Chemistry, Mathematics and Biology doesn't help, I could always just treat you to a bar of chocolates and we can call it a day.

On another note, I do not find it appaling to be outspoken in their faith - Theist or Atheist. If we so believe in anything, should we not have the guts to defend it? After all, we are human.

Thank you for your respect. Likewise, I have nothing against christians.

As for finding God in personal experience, I have not done so, although I am always willing. However, if there is a God who does not wish me to believe in His existence, who am I to criticize His decision?

For us ....it isn't But that IS the very Meaning of the word supernatural....beyond nature, beyond physics.

I'll admit it isn't rational but it IS logical.

Sorry to disappoint, but rational and logical are the same thing. As for the supernatural, I have no reason to believe that such a thing exists.

All of the answers seemed to me to be insulting and rude toward superstitous peeps.
So I vote : Jesus 2: This Time It's Personal.

Alright, I try not to get in to these kind of arguements, but I have to say something:

Who created God? And if God had a creator, who created that person? And if you can answer that question, who created him? At some point in history something or sombody had to have appeared without a creator, by chance. Even if "God" did create Earth, the fact that you believe everything had a creator is not logical. Even if you found the person who created God's creator, who created him?

Isn't the same true for anything? Where did the first of anything come from? How did it get here? Whether it was created or not, where did it come from? Where did the dust in space come from? I don't think you have an answer any better than the Creationists have?

Sorry to disappoint, but rational and logical are the same thing. As for the supernatural, I have no reason to believe that such a thing exists.


Not quite

Rational means Sensible, Reasonable In relitive terms....

Logical is merely Scientific reasoning. which includes the improbobal ex:The existance of a supernatural being.

:rolleyes: I'm afraid you missed the point. I never said I had an answer. What I'm saying is that you can't completely disprove athiest theory, because obviously something had to have come out of nowhere.

No, I'm not athiest, I'm agnostic. :D

Alright, I try not to get in to these kind of arguements, but I have to say something:

Who created God? And if God had a creator, who created that person? And if you can answer that question, who created him? At some point in history something or sombody had to have appeared without a creator, by chance. Even if "God" did create Earth, the fact that you believe everything had a creator is not logical. Even if you found the person who created God's creator, who created him?

Uhhh... apparently you're one of the folk who simply can't grasp the concept. Time-Space, according to contemporary physics, was created alongside matter and energy. This is why Time-Space is relative according to the state of the matter that exists in it. Now, while time began to run during the genesis of matter (since time is a requisite of something beginning), time did not exist prior to this point.

One of the principles of God is that he has neither beginning nor end. Biblical accounts also say that he occupies far more space that any matter could. Therefore, God is clearly a being of existence precedent and separate of time and space. As a state of nothing is the most logical thing in logic (think about it, there are more things that do not exist than those that do), there would have to be a something independent of the nothing to make everything come into being. :D

Well, tought I'd make my first appearance... probably wont last long though, Let me know what ya'll think. I won't respond to ad hominem however.

peace

1. Finite, changing things exist. For example, me. I would have to exist to deny that I exist; so either way, I must really exist.
2. Every finite, changing thing must be caused by something else. If it is limited and it changes, then it cannot be something that exists independently. If it existed independently, or necessarily, then it would have always existed without any kind of change.
3. There cannot be an infinite regress of these causes. In other words, you can’t go on explaining how this finite thing causes this finite thing, which causes this other finite thing, and on and on, because that really just puts off the explanation indefinitely. It doesn’t explain anything. Besides, if we are talking about why finite things are existing right now, then no matter how many finite causes you line up, eventually you will have one that would be both causing its own existence and be an effect of that cause at the same moment. That is nonsense. So no infinite regress can explain why I am existing right now.
4. Therefore, there must be a first uncaused cause of every finite, changing thing that exists
5. We call this uncaused cause God.

Well, tought I'd make my first appearance... probably wont last long though, Let me know what ya'll think. I won't respond to ad hominem however.

peace

1. Finite, changing things exist. For example, me. I would have to exist to deny that I exist; so either way, I must really exist.
2. Every finite, changing thing must be caused by something else. If it is limited and it changes, then it cannot be something that exists independently. If it existed independently, or necessarily, then it would have always existed without any kind of change.
3. There cannot be an infinite regress of these causes. In other words, you can’t go on explaining how this finite thing causes this finite thing, which causes this other finite thing, and on and on, because that really just puts off the explanation indefinitely. It doesn’t explain anything. Besides, if we are talking about why finite things are existing right now, then no matter how many finite causes you line up, eventually you will have one that would be both causing its own existence and be an effect of that cause at the same moment. That is nonsense. So no infinite regress can explain why I am existing right now.
4. Therefore, there must be a first uncaused cause of every finite, changing thing that exists
5. We call this uncaused cause God.

Thats what I was trying to get at with my question Is it more Logical to belive that matter could be Infinite

Or could a supernatural being be Infinite?

Isn't the same true for anything?
No single thing can be the same for the collective.
Where did the first of anything come from?
It always was.
How did it get here?
See above post.
Whether it was created or not, where did it come from?
"
Where did the dust in space come from?
WTF are you talking about> From matter that floats. It's a much more interesting question to ask, Where did the planets come from? The dust should be obvious.
[QUOTE]I don't think you have an answer any better than the Creationists have[/QUOTE?]
There are much better answers. Of course, your membership to the flat-earth society is still available (as promoted by the holy word).

Well let me ask you this... Where did Humanity come from then? Where did the world come from? Do you just believe we just appeared all of a sudden out of thin air?

It's called evolution, and before that, abiogenesis which we have several good clues as to how it probably happened. Of course we don't know for sure but, we're still looking and even if we never find out, all the other information we'll find will make the search worthwhile (far more so than searching for gods.)

:rolleyes: I'm afraid you missed the point. I never said I had an answer. What I'm saying is that you can't completely disprove athiest theory, because obviously something had to have come out of nowhere.

No, I'm not athiest, I'm agnostic. :D

"So if something had to have come out of nowhere", does that mean it was created?

Oh how can I forget the logic in Atheism?
How can I forget that existence without precedence, being without source and form without purpose could be so logical!

Just as logical as finding a computer appear preassembled with a Pentium XIV processor and a 3D holographic monitor on a deserted beach somewhere off Oahu and citing that natural forces assembled it from the silicon in the sand.

Interesting. So, you are saying that in the billions and billions of lightyears of existance, random chance cannot put together complex objects? that seems unlikely. It may not be very likely to find apparently weird combinations of things, like a Perfectly spherical stone (http://www.hampden.net.nz/Moeraki%20Boulders.htm) or Glass rods in the sand (http://home.att.net/~allanmcnyc/rakov.html) but I rekon they do happen, and if something as complex as that, why not something more complex? it would be rarer the more complex it is, of course, but there would still be a finite chance (if small) of digging up a G4 PowerMac in your back Garden (as an example).

The problem with God is that it short-cuts lots of interesting, rational thought.
"Why is the sky blue?" "God made it that way" "Oh"
"Why should we not eat Red meat on a Friday?" "Because God says"
"Why not covert your neighbours wife?" "You will go to hell"

Not saying there isn't a God, that's not for me to say, but Religeon has lobotomised many promising thinkers with dogma. (Incidentally this is a reversal from the Dark ages when the Muslim and Hindu temples kept alive the knowledge of mathematics and astronomy, heck, even those most dogmatic of fanatics, the Christians did some good by preserving texts and providing a central repository for those western thinkers that wished to rediscover the sublime mathematics of the past, or retrace the steps of the Arabian and Chinese thinkers.

....But I digress.

I rekon that whether there is a God or not (and whether you believe or not) should not make any difference to how you live your life. I've known good Atheists, good Agnosts, and good Theists, and bad people of all of those (especially those who think that the others are deluded and will somehow be punished if they don't conform). And in general the Deistic beliefs, or their lack, of those who were good made very little difference as to whether the people were good or not.

Cheers
Grantwold

Thank you for your respect. Likewise, I have nothing against christians.

As for finding God in personal experience, I have not done so, although I am always willing. However, if there is a God who does not wish me to believe in His existence, who am I to criticize His decision?

Oh, he does. He wants everybody to believe and be saved and join him in the perfection of everything. But man, christian or not, turns his back at him to worship their lives and their money. He allows it to happen because man can pretty much do anything he wants.

But since the World was designed by him and for him, doing stuff against his will can incur terrible things - courtesy of natural law.

For example: if a man stabs himself in the noggin, natural law states that he dies.

As for personal experience, searching for him is a good way to start. They reason we can't feel him first hand is because we chose to turn our backs on him. I turned back to him. The guy gave me a cushy job. Now, if I turn my back to him (i.e., I don't do my job the way I should), natural law would cause me to get fired and will eventually end me up in a dumpster. :D

No single thing can be the same for the collective.

It always was.

See above post.

"
Where did the dust in space come from?
WTF are you talking about> From matter that floats. It's a much more interesting question to ask, Where did the planets come from? The dust should be obvious.
[QUOTE]I don't think you have an answer any better than the Creationists have[/QUOTE?]
There are much better answers. Of course, your membership to the flat-earth society is still available (as promoted by the holy word).

You have a right to disagree with me, which is fine. But why the insults? So where does the dust come from? Science tells us where the planets come from. I do believe in science by the way.

No single thing can be the same for the collective.

[QUOTE]It always was.
See above post.

"It always was." That's what the creationist say. What gives?

You have a right to disagree with me, which is fine. But why the insults?
Damn, I'm so not trying to offend you. I don't even know how a dude would think that I'm being insulting. My post (if you know my posts) was uberlite.As a nice guy, be cool.

[QUOTE=Eichen]That's what the creationist say. What gives?
What 9 out of 10 physicists go into today.

String theory.
EDIT: The scientists and philosphers are coming to the same conclusion.

Jesus (suprise) still has nothing to do with it.

Damn, I'm so not trying to offend you. I don't even know how a dude would think that I'm being insulting. My post (if you know my posts) was uberlite.As a nice guy, be cool.
You tell that the flat earth society has a spot for me, accuse me of being overly religious, sounds insulting to me. Still answer the question where does the dust come from?

[QUOTE=GoodThoughts]
What 9 out of 10 physicists go into today.

String theory.
EDIT: The scientists and philosphers are coming to the same conclusion.

Jesus (suprise) still has nothing to do with it.

So you believe in a theory. Something without, at this moment, any real hard proof. Sounds unscientfic to me!

jesus does not exist, religion is crap. the real Truth is Atheism. :mad:
The man Jesus Christ Did exist, that is documented. However if he was more than just a man unfairly executed in Jerusalem around 0 BC is up for interpretation.

You tell that the flat earth society has a spot for me, accuse me of being overly religious, sounds insulting to me. Still answer the question where does the dust come from?
Maybe you've read my posts.
Maybe

I'd like you to back up your statements (accuse me of being overly religious).
I'm not phobic of Christians in the least.

And the dust comes from matter that was expelled initially in the bang.
(Italiciztion due to the recent outcrop of scientists who disagree with the bang of the bang. If you're up on the science, you know what I mean.)

The dust is a result of a "bang".

The dust later accumulated into planets and more importantly, suns.

[QUOTE=Eichen]

So you believe in a theory. Something without, at this moment, any real hard proof. Sounds unscientfic to me!
It's not my job to educate you.
The scientific process involves more than your myopic post.

Maybe you've read my posts.
Maybe

I'd like you to back up your statements (accuse me of being overly religious).
I'm not phobic of Christians in the least.

And the dust comes from matter that was expelled initially in the bang.
(Italiciztion due to the recent outcrop of scientists who disagree with the bang of the bang. If you're up on the science, you know what I mean.)

The dust is a result of a "bang".

The dust later accumulated into planets and more importantly, suns.


Here's what you said. The flat-earth stuff was insulting. The holy word stuff refers to someone who has let religious superstition get in the way of reason. Both of your commets are unnecessary. But let's forget that for now. It means nothing to me. I'm still have to ask then how did the Big Bang happen? Science does not yet have an answer. Someday they will, perhaps. Just as those who believe in a Supreme Being don't have all of the answers neither does science. My real point in all of this is that just because some creationist are strident and unreasonable doesn't mean that all people who believe in a Supreme Being are that way. We need to be more civil in our discussions. I am a Baha'i. I believe that there is only one God, that science and religion at their core truly agree, that all people are created by God and all divinely revealed religions are essentially the same. You have a right to disagree. Bed time for me.

WTF are you talking about>
There are much better answers. Of course, your membership to the flat-earth society is still available (as promoted by the holy word).

I'm still have to ask then how did the Big Bang happen?
There was no big bang. The term is a rediculous statement that I chide while defending, because it's halfway right. In a funny way.
Get a subscription at least to Sci-American.
Just as those who believe in a Supreme Being don't have all of the answers neither does science.
Bullshit! Science has the monopoly on answers. Unless we're talking that science and religion at their core truly agree
I like you just based on that statement alone.
that all people are created by God and all divinely revealed religions are essentially the same. Obviously, you're well aware of my partiy's platform.

About Jesus.

Y'shua, of the line of David, was the son of a man and a woman. Apparently, however, this was a front since God had been the sole perpetrator of the entire deal since the beginning. In fact the entire old testament is littered with the details of his life and work even if these scriptures were written way long before his grandfather had his first teeth. The fact that he did exist as a human being is uncontestable but whether or not he did everything he did...

Well...

Let's just say that his companions were willing to die for what he lived, died and lived for regardless of the fact that the job was totally payless, thankless and placed their lives in constant danger (only one of the twelve apostles died of natural causes). And so did several multitudes after them.

But there's one more thing.

Jesus made a heckuva lot of promises. Like that one about how whoever asks him into his heart will be better off for some reason. Or that thing about redemption and peace and forgiveness and stuff...

I haven't got the slightest feeling that any of what I will say would change your name but...

In my life... he's never failed me yet. :)

So who is this Jesus fellow?
Heathen. :fluffle:

All of the answers seemed to me to be insulting and rude toward superstitous peeps.
So I vote : Jesus 2: This Time It's Personal.

The Passion Reloaded- He's back, and this time, he's mad! :D

About Jesus.

Y'shua, of the line of David, was the son of a man and a woman. Apparently, however, this was a front since God had been the sole perpetrator of the entire deal since the beginning. In fact the entire old testament is littered with the details of his life and work even if these scriptures were written way long before his grandfather had his first teeth. The fact that he did exist as a human being is uncontestable but whether or not he did everything he did...

Well...

Let's just say that his companions were willing to die for what he lived, died and lived for regardless of the fact that the job was totally payless, thankless and placed their lives in constant danger (only one of the twelve apostles died of natural causes). And so did several multitudes after them.

But there's one more thing.

Jesus made a heckuva lot of promises. Like that one about how whoever asks him into his heart will be better off for some reason. Or that thing about redemption and peace and forgiveness and stuff...

I haven't got the slightest feeling that any of what I will say would change your name but...

In my life... he's never failed me yet. :)

Holy shit, somebody actually is referring to Jesus!!! My entire point in this thread was to joke about how little most Christians know about the central figure in their religion, and I managed to scroll through about 6 pages of people debating Christianity without mentioning him.

Why the hell do you people mostly ignore the teachings of Jesus in favor of the teachings of the church. You don't need to validate your beliefs through God, the Church or anything. Jesus was certain that you validated your faith by your actions and the way you treated your fellow man, but most Christians are too enamoured by the mystical nature the church has bestowed upon him to actually venture out and truly analyze what he believed.

It doesn't matter who or what Jesus was, only what he taught, and modern Christianity does not reflect the teachings of Christ.

With that said, you failed to mention anything pertaining to his teachings or the validity of them.

Why the hell do you people mostly ignore the teachings of Jesus in favor of the teachings of the church. You don't need to validate your beliefs through God, the Church or anything. Jesus was certain that you validated your faith by your actions and the way you treated your fellow man, but most Christians are too enamoured by the mystical nature the church has bestowed upon him to actually venture out and truly analyze what he believed.

So what do you think Jesus believed?

So what do you think Jesus believed?

Jesus believed that your faith and goodness was determined by your actions and your acceptance of others. Jesus believed that Church was unnecessary as you needed no intermediary to talk to God. Jesus taught that you should treat the sinners as well as you treat the righteous.

None of these are represented by modern organized religion.

Jesus believed that your faith and goodness was determined by your actions and your acceptance of others. Jesus believed that Church was unnecessary as you needed no intermediary to talk to God. God taught that you should treat the sinners as well as you treat the righteous.

None of these are represented by modern organized religion.

I guess I wouldn't disagree with your statements, except the intermediary part. It seems to me that Jesus is/was the intermediary between God and humans. Don't you think that explains the, My Father sent me, My Father is greater than me quotes from the NT?

I guess I wouldn't disagree with your statements, except the intermediary part. It seems to me that Jesus is/was the intermediary between God and humans. Don't you think that explains the, My Father sent me, My Father is greater than me quotes from the NT?

That is the Church not Jesus. I think that Jesus saw himself as a guide rather than an intermediary.

Note that I am an agnostic who thinks that Jesus existed but never considered himself the son of God. Also note that that has no bearing on our discussion of the teachings of Jesus, like I said it doesn't matter who he was, but what he said.

That is the Church not Jesus. I think that Jesus saw himself as a guide rather than an intermediary.

Note that I am an agnostic who thinks that Jesus existed but never considered himself the son of God. Also note that that has no bearing on our discussion of the teachings of Jesus, like I said it doesn't matter who he was, but what he said.

Guide, intermediary they seem pretty similiar to me; and I agree that Jesus never considered himself the physical son of God. It makes more sense as a title, just as Moses was the lawgiver, a title. I agree the battles over was Jesus the son of God or not are rather unimportant. What he said has inspired people for 2k years proof to me that the words came from God through Jesus making him the mouthpiece of God for that age.

Guide, intermediary they seem pretty similiar to me; and I agree that Jesus never considered himself the physical son of God. It makes more sense as a title, just as Moses was the lawgiver, a title. I agree the battles over was Jesus the son of God or not are rather unimportant. What he said has inspired people for 2k years proof to me that the words came from God through Jesus making him the mouthpiece of God for that age.

I don't believe that he considered himself the messiah, either. I think that he was a profit who was a fine speaker and obviously very intelligent, but I don't think that he ever saw himself as being anything more than another person.

Concerning inspiration, the same thing goes for the tenets of Islam, Hindu, Buddhism, and so on. The same thing goes for Plato and Aristotle.

I don't believe that he considered himself the messiah, either. I think that he was a profit who was a fine speaker and obviously very intelligent, but I don't think that he ever saw himself as being anything more than another person.

Concerning inspiration, the same thing goes for the tenets of Islam, Hindu, Buddhism, and so on. The same thing goes for Plato and Aristotle.

Yes, he was a fine speaker and very inspiring as were Plato, Aristotle and many others. If we believe the Bible accounts then I would have to say that He understood that His relationship with God was different than yours or mine. He did talk about the many manisions that His Father had prepared. He talked about His return. They are many other quotes that show a special relationship between Jesus and the Father. I really see Hindu, Buddhism, Islam and Baha'i and others as the same religion that is renewed from age to age.

Holy shit, somebody actually is referring to Jesus!!! My entire point in this thread was to joke about how little most Christians know about the central figure in their religion, and I managed to scroll through about 6 pages of people debating Christianity without mentioning him.

Why the hell do you people mostly ignore the teachings of Jesus in favor of the teachings of the church. Jesus was certain that you validated your faith by your actions and the way you treated your fellow man, but most Christians are too enamoured by the mystical nature the church has bestowed upon him to actually venture out and truly analyze what he believed.

It doesn't matter who or what Jesus was, only what he taught, and modern Christianity does not reflect the teachings of Christ.


OK first and foremost I'd like to say that (in my view, and I'm sure in His as well :P) being a Christian is foremostly not about organised religion, but is about a Relationship with God through Chirst Jesus.

I am the way, the truth, and the life.
No one can come to the Father except through me.

This is the point in Christianity. It very much matters who and what he was - if he was just some bloke teaching this for cheap thrills, then the above statement is rubbish... if he is, however, who he claims to be... well then, that changes everything.

Scrolled through 6 pages about Christianity without mentioning him?!!?
Thats sad - Christianity IS him!

Jesus was certain that you validated your faith by your actions and the way you treated your fellow man

Y'know, actually, I do seem to recall something about the whole world being fallen, and needing redeemed, something about how our own actions could never save us, and ...perhaps, maybe a crucifixion?




Karl Marx once described Religion as The Opium of the Masses, and I have to agree with him there. For the sake of (semi) berevity, I'll leave that as that. Ponder it if you will.


If you seriously believe that Jesus never considered himself the Son of God, then there are a few possibilities.

#1 You haven't actually READ any of the Bible in a considerably long time.
Jesus states his divine nature ALL THE TIME. (see above quote, for instance)

#2 '2nd century monks rewrote the bible, so we cant actually believe anything thats in it'
If you wont take anyone's word that this is a load of rubbish, then do a bit of study into these claims and you'll see them fall apart. Just like the whole hoaxed lunar landings thing, and the UFO crash at Roswell in 1951...
History is far from being an exact science, but nevertheless the application of even a little logic totally refutes these claims.

#3 'The bible might once have been the Word of God, but its been retranslated so many times that its lost its original meaning.'
Oh Dear. You really think that whoever translated the NIV really got the James 5th (arbitrary example) and rewrote it in modern grammar? When they have the original Greek & Hebrew sitting about just begging to be retranslated? If so, then I have absolutely nothing else to say, your brain fails you.

#4 Your logic is so fantastically structured, such as myself simply cant follow it. Please explain.

#5 The inevitable "You're talking out your backside" option. :)


The difference between Christianity and other 'mainstream' religions?

Other religions: God(s) says: do this and this, and dont do that and I'll save you
Christianity: God says: you've failed. But I love you, and will take the punishment upon myself that you might be free from my wrath and can enjoy eternity with me


Oh and when I pushed PREVIEW i saw this and just HAD to comment:

So you believe in a theory. Something without, at this moment, any real hard proof. Sounds unscientfic to me!
Right, I just want to cry after reading that.
Here's me gone through all this bloody higher education being taught that 'science' is NOT absolute, and is merely the currently accepted Theory of Everything. Furthermore we have NO current Theory of Everything that actually complies with observations... but we're getting there, apparently (its even been named already, M-Theory, which is a rather sucky name, and also removes the only fun bit of coming up with a new theory, which is giving it a fun name)
I also remember being told on several occasions that Nothing can be proven, things can only be disproven.

But having read that quote I feel compelled to change my mind and beat my head off a brick wall repeatedly until I truly understand it... :P


Edit: Oh, and that Abstinance red writing guy...
She was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, yeah...
But then she had several other children the old fashioned way.

Note that I am an agnostic who thinks that Jesus existed but never considered himself the son of God. Also note that that has no bearing on our discussion of the teachings of Jesus, like I said it doesn't matter who he was, but what he said.


I mean no disrespect I actually enjoy these kinds of conversations.
I am forced however to point out to you that not only dose He belive that he is the SON of God but that He himself is a part of GOD.

It states in John 14:8-11, (Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and we will be satisfied." Jesus replied, "Philip, don't you even yet know who I am, even after all the time I have been with you? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking to see him? Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words I say are not my own, but my Father who lives in me does his work through me. Just believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me.)

Philip felt that he needed to see God to have greater faith in Jesus. Philip wants the assurance of God's presence. Jesus reminds him of something the Lord had said again and again, "If you've seen me... or heard me... you have seen and heard the Father!"

I mean no disrespect I actually enjoy these kinds of conversations.
I am forced however to point out to you that not only dose He belive that he is the SON of God but that He himself is a part of GOD.

It states in John 14:8-11, (Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and we will be satisfied." Jesus replied, "Philip, don't you even yet know who I am, even after all the time I have been with you? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking to see him? Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words I say are not my own, but my Father who lives in me does his work through me. Just believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me.)

Philip felt that he needed to see God to have greater faith in Jesus. Philip wants the assurance of God's presence. Jesus reminds him of something the Lord had said again and again, "If you've seen me... or heard me... you have seen and heard the Father!"

I am not sure if the quotes you supplied really mean that Jesus is the physical son of God. It seems to me that the quotes are saying I (Jesus) am the representive of God. Just as when a father sends his son on a job of some kind and says to his son, "you can speak for me", "you have the same authority as I do when you are doing this job for me." The father and the son are not the same,they have different roles, but for that mission the son speaks for the father. That is the spiritual role that Jesus had. He was God's Messenger on earth. This would have been a perfect time for a Jesus to simply say "I am God." Very simple. Yet, He didn't do that. He again tried to show that He was speaking for His Father, but He was not the Father..

I get what you are saying but in the verse itself He states That "Anyone who has seen me has seen the father." and when Phillip asked to see the Father Jesus asked him "Don't you know me?"

Both of those statments are what leave me to Believe that he and the father are in fact one.....

But if you need antother qute then here.

John 1:1-2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

In this case the "Word" is pertaning to Jesus
I kinda veiw the trinity as a good chery pie.......

If you sliced the pie into thirds you could see where the Demarcations are in the crust (showing seperate parts) but underneath the Pie filling will have reformed and become one. I belive that Jesus Called himself God's son only because thats the closest way he could describe his relationship with the father without confusing us.

I get what you are saying but in the verse itself He states That "Anyone who has seen me has seen the father." and when Phillip asked to see the Father Jesus asked him "Don't you know me?"

Both of those statments are what leave me to Believe that he and the father are in fact one.....

But if you need antother qute then here.

John 1:1-2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

In this case the "Word" is pertaning to Jesus
I kinda veiw the trinity as a good chery pie.......

If you sliced the pie into thirds you could see where the Demarcations are in the crust (showing seperate parts) but underneath the Pie filling will have reformed and become one. I belive that Jesus Called himself God's son only because thats the closest way he could describe his relationship with the father without confusing us.

The following quote explains this concept in a way that is understandable for me. It is a little long but then the concept has perplexed some very smart people for many years.

"The Divine Reality, which is purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings and which can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence, is exempt from all conception. That Lordly Reality admits of no division; for division and multiplicity are properties of creatures which are contingent existences, and not accidents which happen to the self-existent.

The Divine Reality is sanctified from singleness, then how much more from plurality. The descent of that Lordly Reality into conditions and degrees would be equivalent to imperfection and contrary to perfection, and is, therefore, absolutely impossible. It perpetually has been, and is, in the exaltation of holiness and sanctity. All that is mentioned of the Manifestations and Dawning-places of God signifies the divine reflection, and not a descent into the conditions of existence.[1]
[1 Cf. "Pantheism," p. 290.]

God is pure perfection, and creatures are but imperfections. For God to descend into the conditions of existence would be the greatest of imperfections; on the contrary, His manifestation, His appearance, His rising are like the reflection of the sun in a clear, pure, polished mirror. All the creatures are evident signs of God, like the earthly beings upon all of which the rays of the sun shine. But upon the plains, the mountains, the trees and fruits, only a portion of the light shines, through which they become visible, and are reared, and attain to the object of their existence, while the Perfect Man [1] is in the condition of a clear mirror in which the Sun of Reality becomes visible and manifest with all its qualities and perfections. So the Reality of Christ was a clear and polished mirror of the greatest purity and fineness. The Sun of Reality, the Essence of Divinity, reflected itself in this mirror and manifested its light and heat in it; but from the exaltation of its holiness, and the heaven of its sanctity, the Sun did not descend to dwell and abide in the mirror. No, it continues to subsist in its exaltation and sublimity, while appearing and becoming manifest in the mirror in beauty and perfection.
[1 The Divine Manifestation.]

Now if we say that we have seen the Sun in two mirrors -- one the Christ and one the Holy Spirit -- that is to say, that we have seen three Suns, one in heaven and the two others on the earth, we speak truly. And if we say that there is one Sun, and it is pure singleness, and has no partner and equal, we again speak truly.

The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality -- that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes -- became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied -- for the Sun is one -- but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, "The Father is in the Son," meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent. **

This is the signification of the Three Persons of the Trinity. If it were otherwise, the foundations of the Religion of God would rest upon an illogical proposition which the mind could never conceive, and how can the mind be forced to believe a thing which it cannot conceive? A thing cannot be grasped by the intelligence except when it is clothed in an intelligible form; otherwise, it is but an effort of the imagination.

It has now become clear, from this explanation, what is the meaning of the Three Persons of the Trinity. The Oneness of God is also proved. "*


(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 113)

Here's another way of understanding Trinity:

God, being extraspatial, can exist in any manner at any time. In this manner, God can easily exist in two places at the same time as two separate persons.

Jesus, while remaining God, is bound to flesh and, therefore, bound to the weaknesses of flesh. In this state, while carrying the identity of God, he is nonetheless operating with a biological brain. By logic, it could be surmised that the human brain does not hold the capacity to hold all the knowledge of God. However, since his spirit is Alive (as opposed to Dead - obviously - a state all mankind inherited from the sin of Adam), Jesus is in direct commune with God. And FYI: Jesus told us that through him, we can have this exact same Divine Clout as well.

It can also be assumed that when Jesus was a baby, he was exactly a baby -unable to talk or walk and everything. His human mind still developing, he would have been indistinguishable to everybody else mentally throughout life: exept for the fact that the Father, source of all Knowledge, supplies everything he needs through the Holy Spirit (think Human Body with Body, Mind and Spirit).

This falls logically with the concept of Spirit: that identity and self is independent of biological function and is, therefore, incorporeal.

About the Teachings of Jesus, it could be summed up nicely in two laws:
Love God above all.
Love thy Neighbor as you love thyself.

And about salvation:
We can only (emphasis on that last word over there) be saved by faith in Christ. Not good works. Not charity. Not nothing. The big delusion is that good people go to heaven. In reality: nobody deserves heaven. Not the Pope, not Mother Theresa, not John the Baptist.

Faith in Jesus is like being able to go to a party we were'nt invited to because the party thrower was kind enough to go out the door and call guests in. Some folk will try to get in by scaling the wall but it's as impregnable as Fort Knox. Some people will try to bribe the guards in other doors but these guards are as loyal to the owner of the house as a lap dog. Some people will try to dismiss the party as not being as deliciously perfect as it really is and some people will simply dismiss the existence of the party entirely.

But those people who hear the party thrower calling in the night and handing in free tickets will be allowed to go in and get drunk in the best booze imaginable.

Suffering is not being with God because God is the one source of all Good. We experience good on Earth because to some extent we still live in God's presence.

Love is all that matters in all actions. After all, Christians basically worship Love (which is strange since it is easy to switch words around into: Love Love Above all. Have no other Loves before me.... wait a minute, maybe it isn't that strange after all... hmmm...)

Jesus preached peace but brought war. Contradictory? Not if you think about it.

And most of all: It's better to just love and care for everybody than to wallow neck deep in organized religion. But really... if you do, don't forget to have atleast a few buddies along with you :D