NationStates Jolt Archive

Rape is being used more and more as a tactic in war, targeting female civilians in an effort to terrorise. (Civilians now make up roughly 70% of casualties in armed conflicts) It is also being used as a form of ethnic domination, forcing pregnancies upon women in a ridiculous bid to 'breed them out'. Gang rape is a brutal tactic that has been used in the conflicts in the Congo, currently in the Sudan (Darfor), in India during race riots, in Indonesia (in Aceh, before the tsunami) and in various other warring areas of the world.

“Women’s bodies have become a battleground over which opposing forces struggle. Women are raped as a way to humiliate male relatives, who are often forced to watch the assault. In societies where ethnicity is inherited through the male line, ‘enemy’ women are raped and forced to bear children. Women who are already pregnant are forced to miscarry through violent attacks. Women are kidnapped and used as sexual slaves to service troops, as well as to cook for them and carry their loads from camp to camp. They are purposefully infected with HIV/AIDS, a slow, painful murder.”

However, rape is also on the rise in the 'civilised' west, yet by how much is hard to estimate since the proportion of rapes reported to authorities vary — from less than 3 per cent in South Africa to about 16 per cent in the US. Violence, sexual, physical or emotional, against women has not been adequately decreased even in the industrialised world. While there are laws in our countries against such violence, there is little public acknowledgment of unreported crimes, or crimes that happen in spite of these laws.

My question is why. Why is this not an issue not considered more important? Here are some stats (just for the U.S):

*Somewhere in America, a woman is raped every 2 minutes, according to the U.S. Department of Justice. http://www.paralumun.com/issuesrapestats.htm

*An estimated 91% of victims of rape are female, 9% are male and 99% of offenders are male. (Bureau of Justice Statistics 1999) http://www2.ucsc.edu/rape-prevention/statistics.html

*Only 2% of rapists are convicted and imprisoned. (US Senate Judiciary Committee 1993) (same source as above)

*In a survey of college males who committed rape, 84% said what they did was definitely not rape. (Warshaw, Robin 1994 "I Never Called It Rape") (same source as above)

Violence against women is a problem that is not being dealt with adequately. What can we do about it? What needs to change?

What men can do: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/vawo/

*An estimated 91% of victims of rape are female, 9% are male and 99% of offenders are male. (Bureau of Justice Statistics 1999)


I don't see how there could really be any cases of women raping men. The mechanics of sex make such an occurence essentially impossible. How does that 1% of female rapists manage it?

I don't see how there could really be any cases of women raping men. The mechanics of sex make such an occurence essentially impossible. How does that 1% of female rapists manage it?
Rape can involve coercion, where the body is forced to respond against the person's will...I suspect many of these 1% of women offenders are committing their crimes against younger men or boys...or other women (as in prison). Don't forget, you don't need the equpiment to commit rape...rape also includes forcing someone to do a sexual act on the offender, or using inanimate objects....*shudder* I think you get the idea.

Violence against women is a problem that is not being dealt with adequately. What can we do about it? What needs to change?

What men can do: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/vawo/

That is the tricky part, I'm not sure there is much that can be done. I doubt things like harsher punishments are going to deter rapists as it is less a calculated risk, and more an urge crime. As far as rape in wars, there is nothing we can do short of stationing peace keeping soilders in every combat area in the world. Back home we could have a national (/inter-national) DNA register so that when these crimes occur, the criminal is caught before they can re-offend. Both solutions are unlikely, so I guess it may fall again to the woman to carry a weapon, or know some self-denfense.

That is the tricky part, I'm not sure there is much that can be done. I doubt things like harsher punishments are going to deter rapists as it is less a calculated risk, and more an urge crime. As far as rape in wars, there is nothing we can do short of stationing peace keeping soilders in every combat area in the world. Back home we could have a national (/inter-national) DNA register so that when these crimes occur, the criminal is caught before they can re-offend. Both solutions are unlikely, so I guess it may fall again to the woman to carry a weapon, or know some self-denfense.
Is punishment the only answer? Punishment as retribution and punishment as deterrence? If that worked, then capital punishment should wipe out crime...but it doesn't. How do we address the underlying social attitudes that continue to see violence against women as 'not that important'? What about the men committing rapes? Why are they doing it? I do not believe that every single one of those men is a raving lunatic psychopath...so why? How can we do more to educate people about this problem?

Coming from Canada, the attitude I commonly come across is one of indifference...most people don't really know how prevalent violence against women (not just rape) is in my country. They feel safe, believing that our laws protect women. Well yes, violence against women is illegal...but difficult to enforce, and laws are NOT proactive. They can't STOP crime...they just outline the consequences of unlawful actions. As well, despite changing times, many STILL feel that violence committed within the home is a 'familial' not 'societal' problem, and don't want to butt in. I understand that...but it's the same attitude that allows child abuse in a home to continue. I'm not talking about storming your neighbour's house and saving his wife...that's ridiculous and would probably get you hurt, by him OR her. Calling the cops on him might help though...or not ignoring her black eyes and broken bones.

Sigh...it's an issue that bothers me a lot, especially considering that the majority of attackers (in cases of rape or other violence) are KNOWN to the victim...not just strangers off the street. In cases of war, that is of course not the same. There is one up...international laws are expanding to include systematic and widespread rape as war crimes if committed during military action...in fact, I believe two men were charged with the war crimes trials of soldiers during the Kosovo conflict. It's a step.

witht the increased sexualization of our society, men are being force fed way too many temptations. the enormous array of scanty clothing that is in style, hollywood stars becoming more and more known for their physiques than talent, mass availability of web based pornography, females that are equaling or toipping mens sexual conquests[and being public about them], etc etc. all these factors are just fuel on the fire of the ticking time bomb that is male sexuality. i feel bad for guys. and women should arm themsleves with something, to fend off an attacker. [ladies, also start watching your drinks in the bar, and quit trusting men so easily] if everyone followed trhis advice, we could cut the rape rate by about 60 % i am no prude, by any sttrreettchh of the imagination, i feel this is just common sense.

That is the tricky part, I'm not sure there is much that can be done. I doubt things like harsher punishments are going to deter rapists as it is less a calculated risk, and more an urge crime. As far as rape in wars, there is nothing we can do short of stationing peace keeping soilders in every combat area in the world. Back home we could have a national (/inter-national) DNA register so that when these crimes occur, the criminal is caught before they can re-offend. Both solutions are unlikely, so I guess it may fall again to the woman to carry a weapon, or know some self-denfense.
More women need to carry guns.

More women need to carry guns.
you have that double plus correct.

I think there should have been a 3rd option of "We're doing the best we can, lets leave things as they are."
I wont vote on this because the first one implies women deserve more protection and the second implies women should be ignored while men get more protection. I strongly disagree with both the options.
There's only so much the police (government) can do to protect men and woman.
But here's an interesting note, look at the crime stats and you'll see that the majority of rape and assault (and almost every other crime), is committed by non-Whites.
There is a direct-correlation bewteen the amount of crime in a city and the number of non-Whites living there.
Think about it...

There is a direct-correlation bewteen the amount of crime in a city and the number of non-Whites living there.
Which explains why I haven't seen a major crime committed in my area by anyone but white-trash kids in a full year?

Guess who firebombed some random guy's car? The local neo-Nazi group. They picked some guy at random, and destroyed his car. Luckily, he wasn't in it.

Guess who set fire to two schoolbusses? Some random kid that thought it would be cool.

Guess who's been doing the robberies and the murders around here? Young white males.

Which explains why I haven't seen a major crime committed in my area by anyone but white-trash kids in a full year?

Guess who firebombed some random guy's car? The local neo-Nazi group. They picked some guy at random, and destroyed his car. Luckily, he wasn't in it.

Guess who set fire to two schoolbusses? Some random kid that thought it would be cool.

Guess who's been doing the robberies and the murders around here? Young white males. How many murders?

But here's an interesting note, look at the crime stats and you'll see that the majority of rape and assault (and almost every other crime), is committed by non-Whites.
There is a direct-correlation bewteen the amount of crime in a city and the number of non-Whites living there.
Think about it...
your statistics are skewed, because your definition of white is so narrow.
it is caucasians that are the highest number of pedophiles, by the way. and that is not the cutest little crime.

*he won't respond to this. he never answers me. i think i make him laugh, and that bothers him*

Which explains why I haven't seen a major crime committed in my area by anyone but white-trash kids in a full year?

Guess who firebombed some random guy's car? The local neo-Nazi group. They picked some guy at random, and destroyed his car. Luckily, he wasn't in it.

Guess who set fire to two schoolbusses? Some random kid that thought it would be cool.

Guess who's been doing the robberies and the murders around here? Young white males.

Are you in a good part of the city?
Just look at the overall statistics. You will see...

How many murders?
I can remember three right now. I can't think of any more at the moment.

I think there should have been a 3rd option of "We're doing the best we can, lets leave things as they are."
I wont vote on this because the first one implies women deserve more protection and the second implies women should be ignored while men get more protection. I strongly disagree with both the options.
There's only so much the police (government) can do to protect men and woman.
But here's an interesting note, look at the crime stats and you'll see that the majority of rape and assault (and almost every other crime), is committed by non-Whites.
There is a direct-correlation bewteen the amount of crime in a city and the number of non-Whites living there.
Think about it...

I done some thinking about it, and here's what I came up with. Lemme know what you think, k?

due to segregation, due to being of a different species, non-whites have to stick together in order to protect themselves from the local neo-nazis. Because of the hangover from the 50s and before, there is still, among a sizeable (but not a majority, I believe) portion of the community, racial prejudice amongst the white folks, meaning that it is more difficult for a non-white to get a secure income, decent education, and real prospects for a life. Given that they're stuck in a hole that they seem unable to get out of, crime can be seen as the only option. Not to forget that cultures can become endemic where they are contained. Since the youth is surrounded by a gang culture, they reach a point where they see it as being acceptable, having been taught a scewed sense of morals, further perverted by lacking an education to properly process them. This leads them to copy the acts of those around them, and being unaware of another standard of living becomes their norm. With this vicious cycle that only a few people of any species can break out of, they become easy game for the more traditionally well-off or educated white-supremacists, who see them as an inferior species instead of understanding that they are not presented with equal opportunities regardless of what the law states. Whilst things may have improved since the fifties and it may be possible to aquire a good education and prospects, the gang culture has become so embedded that it will be difficult to drive out.

But then, this is just my ramblings. What do I know?

I can remember three right now. I can't think of any more at the moment.
tee hee. jugend has me on ignore! i think he wants, in secret, a taste of the..you know...otherside.ssshhhh. don't tell though.

But then, this is just my ramblings. What do I know?
A theory that I've had for a bit is that the reason that more crimes are reported as being committed by non-whites is that the cops heard that from some other person, and turned it into a self-fulfilling prophecy by watching the non-whites more than the whites.

jordaxia- did you read the racism thread? just curious.

witht the increased sexualization of our society, men are being force fed way too many temptations. the enormous array of scanty clothing that is in style, hollywood stars becoming more and more known for their physiques than talent, mass availability of web based pornography, females that are equaling or toipping mens sexual conquests[and being public about them], etc etc. all these factors are just fuel on the fire of the ticking time bomb that is male sexuality. i feel bad for guys. and women should arm themsleves with something, to fend off an attacker. [ladies, also start watching your drinks in the bar, and quit trusting men so easily] if everyone followed trhis advice, we could cut the rape rate by about 60 % i am no prude, by any sttrreettchh of the imagination, i feel this is just common sense.
So the problem lays with men who are too tempted to do anything but go out and rape women? That's a sad belief. Women should go around in packs, never feel safe, and shoot men who smile at them because men JUST CAN'T CONTROL THEIR SEXUAL DESIRES.

You do men little justice. Porn does not cause rape.

I think there should have been a 3rd option of "We're doing the best we can, lets leave things as they are."
I wont vote on this because the first one implies women deserve more protection and the second implies women should be ignored while men get more protection. I strongly disagree with both the options.
There's only so much the police (government) can do to protect men and woman.
But here's an interesting note, look at the crime stats and you'll see that the majority of rape and assault (and almost every other crime), is committed by non-Whites.
There is a direct-correlation bewteen the amount of crime in a city and the number of non-Whites living there.
Think about it...
And Hitler Jr. spews forth his racist crap once again! Yay! My brother asked you to hurry up and move off his land....

Rape is caused by men that get off on raping women. There's not really much else to it.

I digress....the issue is rape and violence against women....not neo-nazi wankers.

Rape is caused by men that get off on raping women. There's not really much else to it.
So dismissive......is this a non-issue for you?

So the problem lays with men who are too tempted to do anything but go out and rape women? That's a sad belief. Women should go around in packs, never feel safe, and shoot men who smile at them because men JUST CAN'T CONTROL THEIR SEXUAL DESIRES.

You do men little justice. Porn does not cause rape.

first off, i am a woman. second of all, women should not be in packs. a girl should be able to take care of herself.i hope you don't think women should just be able to have loose inhibitions, and still be able to "feel safe" while acting like idiots. i said, if you read closely, that i believe how society has changed has increased the rape rate through temptation, not that it is responsible for it. if people took my advice, you could rid of most of the problem. and then we have the base 40% of the offenders would offend anyhow, no matter what decade it was.

jordaxia- did you read the racism thread? just curious.

I can't remember. I think I avoided it. It's not something I tend to dwell into too much. Why?

witht the increased sexualization of our society, men are being force fed way too many temptations. the enormous array of scanty clothing that is in style, hollywood stars becoming more and more known for their physiques than talent, mass availability of web based pornography, females that are equaling or toipping mens sexual conquests[and being public about them], etc etc. all these factors are just fuel on the fire of the ticking time bomb that is male sexuality. i feel bad for guys. and women should arm themsleves with something, to fend off an attacker. [ladies, also start watching your drinks in the bar, and quit trusting men so easily] if everyone followed trhis advice, we could cut the rape rate by about 60 % i am no prude, by any sttrreettchh of the imagination, i feel this is just common sense.
Ah yes, and I forgot...women who can't adequately fend of attackers are, of course at fault for the crime...if they'd only fought a bit harder, it wouldn't happen, right? Do our ankles tempt men to rape? Should we wear burkhas? Bad ankle! Bad, sexy ankle!

So dismissive......is this a non-issue for you?

No, I would like it if there was no rape. Having been accused of rape it's much of an issue to me.

I can't remember. I think I avoided it. It's not something I tend to dwell into too much. Why?
there is some things i feel you would like to read.

Ah yes, and I forgot...women who can't adequately fend of attackers are, of course at fault for the crime...if they'd only fought a bit harder, it wouldn't happen, right?
quit making sweeping generalizations. it's ridiculous. of course there are gray areas. however, an armed woman has a much better chance.

More women need to carry guns.
True dat.

Rape can involve coercion, where the body is forced to respond against the person's will...I suspect many of these 1% of women offenders are committing their crimes against younger men or boys...or other women (as in prison). Don't forget, you don't need the equpiment to commit rape...rape also includes forcing someone to do a sexual act on the offender, or using inanimate objects....*shudder* I think you get the idea.

If the woman is stronger than the man, or armed, she can rape him. A man's penis responds to stimulation regardless of whether he wants it to or not.

Ah yes, and I forgot...women who can't adequately fend of attackers are, of course at fault for the crime...if they'd only fought a bit harder, it wouldn't happen, right? Do our ankles tempt men to rape? Should we wear burkhas? Bad ankle! Bad, sexy ankle!
The fact is that although a victim of a crime shouldn't be held responsible, you are ultimately responsible for your own protection. The bad guys will never entirely go away, and the police won't be there when you need them.

i pity the person who is born a victim. you have no idea what life offers you when you decide to deliver your destiny.

Sinuhue, while I agree with your assesment of rape as a tool of politics and war, I suggest that you err in saying it is an increasing phenomena.

Sadly it is a tactic that reaches as far back as recorded history and probably beyond. It has always been there, it was not acknowledged much during the last couple of centuries, but it has always still been one of the realities of war.

No one really wanted to hear such stories, so they were mostly ignored. The only thing that has increased is the attention such atrocities are recieving.

War has always been fought mostly by young men.

And the depths of cruelty a group of 19 year old men are capabale of has yet to be measured.

The fact is that although a victim of a crime shouldn't be held responsible, you are ultimately responsible for your own protection. The bad guys will never entirely go away, and the police won't be there when you need them.

my point exactly that i have tried to make ! reference my prior post...

I think there should have been a 3rd option of "We're doing the best we can, lets leave things as they are."
I wont vote on this because the first one implies women deserve more protection and the second implies women should be ignored while men get more protection. I strongly disagree with both the options.
There's only so much the police (government) can do to protect men and woman.
But here's an interesting note, look at the crime stats and you'll see that the majority of rape and assault (and almost every other crime), is committed by non-Whites.
There is a direct-correlation bewteen the amount of crime in a city and the number of non-Whites living there.
Think about it...

I don't know about all your statistics, but I know one. The majority of serial killers are White males.......and that's fact.

quit making sweeping generalizations. it's ridiculous. of course there are gray areas. however, an armed woman has a much better chance.
Now who is making sweeping generalisations? The point is, women shouldn't have to walk around armed, and think every man is a rapist, and men shouldn't be taught that, "It's okay that you can't help yourself....all that PORN!"

witht the increased sexualization of our society, men are being force fed way too many temptations. the enormous array of scanty clothing that is in style, hollywood stars becoming more and more known for their physiques than talent, mass availability of web based pornography, females that are equaling or toipping mens sexual conquests[and being public about them], etc etc. all these factors are just fuel on the fire of the ticking time bomb that is male sexuality. i feel bad for guys. and women should arm themsleves with something, to fend off an attacker. [ladies, also start watching your drinks in the bar, and quit trusting men so easily] if everyone followed trhis advice, we could cut the rape rate by about 60 % i am no prude, by any sttrreettchh of the imagination, i feel this is just common sense.

Wise words, although i think a lot of the claimed rape isn't real. e.g where the male isn't aware that he is 'raping' and thinks everythings ok. I can assure you that a lot of women claim they have been raped when they haven't.

Now who is making sweeping generalisations? The point is, women shouldn't have to walk around armed, and think every man is a rapist, and men shouldn't be taught that, "It's okay that you can't help yourself....all that PORN!"

if you have a gun, you will use it to protect yourself and kind.. you don't have scrutinize men. if you get in a situation, it there. i have carried a gun since i was 19 years old and on my own in the world, i give little thought to it, except when i have to clean it, or lock it up and put it on a high shelf when my nieces and nephews visit. i said nothing about teaching men anything. fact is, males are pretty neglected when it comes to being taught proper sexual attitudes. i am referring to what is happening in society on a subliminal level. i think your problem lies with the fact you want every laid out in sticks. and life, it just isn't that way.

The fact is that although a victim of a crime shouldn't be held responsible, you are ultimately responsible for your own protection. The bad guys will never entirely go away, and the police won't be there when you need them.
If we wanted our societies to be based on the principle of "survival of the fittest", we would have no policies in place to protect the weak and those at risk. That is not the cases. Are children at fault for being weaker than their parents? Should they stab their parents for trying to spank them? Is THAT taking responsibility for their protection? Should a disabled man carry a shotgun, on the off chance someone tries to beat him up? In some cultures, a woman who is raped is punished along with her attacker FOR NOT FIGHTING HARD ENOUGH. We don't expect children to be responsible for their protection, nor do we expect it of the mentally handicapped or the physically impaired....we don't expect a lightweight boxer to win in a heavyweight match....should we give the lightweight brass knuckles to even out the odds?

I prefer the society we live in....one that recognises that the protection of the individual is the responsibility of all.

I think incidents of Rape are up for a variety of reasons, most noticeable to me of course is the over-sexing of our culture. Having sex, and not being a virgin has become a huge driving force over the last 50 years. The most recent generation's attention and pre-occupation with Sex is actually quite disturbing and I can say with confidence definitely has had a hand in this. When the role models of our teenagers are Paris Hilton and Colin Farrell and we have an over-frustrated teenage population who sees everyone else having sex in the media (Even animals), they are of course going to be more likely to put a pill in a drink, or ignore it when a girl says no. Add to this the much higher useage of drugs and alcohol in this country, and this situation can forseeably be relatively common place.

In Pop Culture women are sluts, and everyone has sex. This is a terrible image, something which I have been trying to fight constantly for the last year or so with Petitions to the FCC, complaints to MTV and of course general rants about the entertainment industry.

Beyond that we do not educate our children enough. They do not know enough about the word "Consent", or that if the person is drunk, no matter what they say, they cannot give it to you. Personally I think that this is a major problem with our Education system: it teaches you how to add two plus two, but it doesnt teach you how to be a responsible citizen. Morality, whether it comes from the church, mosque, synagoge,the Dalai Llama or your parents, is such an important part of our culture, such an important aspect of being human and we are slowly forgetting it, collectively.

Sorry to get off on a rant here....

I don't know about all your statistics, but I know one. The majority of serial killers are White males.......and that's fact.
It's not a proven fact. For years the existance of female, black, and other minority serial killers was denied even though there were clear instances of it occuring. Plus how many countries with a white minority bother to make an accurate count of serial murderers?

There is a direct-correlation bewteen the amount of crime in a city and the number of non-Whites living there.
Think about it...Please provide credible references or STFU.

I've thought about it and heard the same arguement a hundred times before. No one's ever backed up the claim with anything not from a Stormfront or Amren website. If you have anything remotely credible to back your claim please provide it.

But out of respect, let's do it in another thread.

If we wanted our societies to be based on the principle of "survival of the fittest", we would have no policies in place to protect the weak and those at risk. That is not the cases. Are children at fault for being weaker than their parents? Should they stab their parents for trying to spank them? Is THAT taking responsibility for their protection? Should a disabled man carry a shotgun, on the off chance someone tries to beat him up? In some cultures, a woman who is raped is punished along with her attacker FOR NOT FIGHTING HARD ENOUGH. We don't expect children to be responsible for their protection, nor do we expect it of the mentally handicapped or the physically impaired....we don't expect a lightweight boxer to win in a heavyweight match....should we give the lightweight brass knuckles to even out the odds?

I prefer the society we live in....one that recognises that the protection of the individual is the responsibility of all.
When we live in a world of ugly realities we cannot act as if it is a beautiful utopia. Doing so can get one killed.

If we wanted our societies to be based on the principle of "survival of the fittest", we would have no policies in place to protect the weak and those at risk. That is not the cases. Are children at fault for being weaker than their parents? Should they stab their parents for trying to spank them? Is THAT taking responsibility for their protection? Should a disabled man carry a shotgun, on the off chance someone tries to beat him up? In some cultures, a woman who is raped is punished along with her attacker FOR NOT FIGHTING HARD ENOUGH. We don't expect children to be responsible for their protection, nor do we expect it of the mentally handicapped or the physically impaired....we don't expect a lightweight boxer to win in a heavyweight match....should we give the lightweight brass knuckles to even out the odds?

I prefer the society we live in....one that recognises that the protection of the individual is the responsibility of all.

what?? a child is a minor. not yet responsible for their own life. a college student walking on campus alone at 2 am is an adult, and should take care of herself. and a boxing match is a planned, organized event. getting jumped in the parking lot and assaulted is not. wow. you are a complete zealot.

Violence against women is a problem that is not being dealt with adequately. What can we do about it? What needs to change?

What men can do: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/vawo/

I vote for castration of the offending party, male or female.

Sinuhue, while I agree with your assesment of rape as a tool of politics and war, I suggest that you err in saying it is an increasing phenomena.

Conventional warfare traditionally involved soldiers fighting soldiers. Civilian casualties happened, but civilians themselves were not targeted. That's not to say villages and cities weren't sacked...they were....and women raped. Nonetheless, this last century has seen more widespread warfare than any other time in history, due to an increase in the human population and the ability to attack on wider scales. Civilians have become the targets....the meaning of Total War. These atrocities still receive little relative attention. Men are not born rapists or killers...they are taught to be such. If we can not prove that rape is on the rise (because we will never have accurate numbers, past, present or future), we can at least be safe in saying that it will continue to remain a serious, and underaddressed problem.

It's not a proven fact. For years the existance of female, black, and other minority serial killers was denied even though there were clear instances of it occuring. Plus how many countries with a white minority bother to make an accurate count of serial murderers?
thats a stretch. our serial murder rates are waayyy higher. and yes those minority killers exist, but they are on the low low end of the scale. i suspect that you know that though.

When we live in a world of ugly realities we cannot act as if it is a beautiful utopia. Doing so can get one killed.Treating "ugly realities" as unchangable is what keeps our world from becoming that utopia. Is living in a hopeless state of fear preferable to death?

thats a stretch. our serial murder rates are waayyy higher. and yes those minority killers exist, but they are on the low low end of the scale. i suspect that you know that though.
I don't know it for a fact. I suspect it's true, but don't have enough hard evidence.

Treating "ugly realities" as unchangable is what keeps our world from becoming that utopia. Is living in a hopeless state of fear preferable to death?
Sorry, I can't be that idealistic. I think predators on two legs will always be around, and they will always be able to rape and kill.

there is some things i feel you would like to read.

I assume you meant your own posts over the first 1-2 pages that deal exactly with what I had said over this thread? I'll deal with that, I just need to pop-open another browser so I can re-read and type at the same time. To deal with your first statement I feel is relevent, I certainly don't feel it's all "whiteys" fault. It's my opinion that previous generations mistreatment and abuse has helped to ingrain the culture, and now it needs urgent attention. I certainly don't hold to blaming the current generation for the previous mis-deeds. It's why I tried to be careful to blame specific white supremacists for this generation.

To deal with the second point, that there is no physical isolation between the squalor of the poorer districts, where I claimed that the gang culture will become its most dominent due to a lack of morals... I blame human nature for that one. Crime is EASY, and it yields instant results, if you don't get caught. Mug someone, or hold up a store, a few minutes work, hundreds of $$ out. Working to get an education, finding financial security, and withstanding peer pressure are very difficult, and take a long time, with little to no short term reward. You have to be of a very strong moral character to get through that in one piece. Not impossible, by a long way, but I don't put the odds on victory.

On the third point, that's absolutely fantastic. I honestly applaud your brother. It was a noble action, and as selfless as a human can be. However, is this an every day occurence? are these schemes pioneered every day - and followed through? I'm sure there are a lot of schemes like that pioneered. I doubt that it's often that it will stumble upon someone of upright enough character to guide it through. Again, I wouldn't put my money on it.


As a fourth note, completely accessory to the debate... I don't actually live in the US. I can't claim to actually know the areas, only their British equivalents. And it's gone to the level of casual crime amongst those who live there. I don't doubt there are people who will make positive contributions to the country living there. But there are a lot who couldn't care less, too. It isn't just one crime per person, remember. In fact, it's likely a lot more. Which is going to affect the statistics, I feel.


(it took me about twelve years to craft this post... it's completely against the grain of the current line of conversation, and was fairly OT to begin with. It's more just a specific reply, not to further debate in itself.)

Men are not born rapists or killers...they are taught to be such. If we can not prove that rape is on the rise (because we will never have accurate numbers, past, present or future), we can at least be safe in saying that it will continue to remain a serious, and underaddressed problem.

where do they get these classes? canada has them? they certainly don't have them here. you told me earlier men are not being taught...... get a grip.

Conventional warfare traditionally involved soldiers fighting soldiers. Civilian casualties happened, but civilians themselves were not targeted. That's not to say villages and cities weren't sacked...they were....and women raped. Nonetheless, this last century has seen more widespread warfare than any other time in history, due to an increase in the human population and the ability to attack on wider scales. Civilians have become the targets....the meaning of Total War. These atrocities still receive little relative attention. Men are not born rapists or killers...they are taught to be such. If we can not prove that rape is on the rise (because we will never have accurate numbers, past, present or future), we can at least be safe in saying that it will continue to remain a serious, and underaddressed problem.
Read the Old Testament for some accounts of war in the old days. Entire populations exterminated, only the virgin females spared as sexual slaves for the conquerors. Ah, the good old days.

Wise words, although i think a lot of the claimed rape isn't real. e.g where the male isn't aware that he is 'raping' and thinks everythings ok. I can assure you that a lot of women claim they have been raped when they haven't.
I can also assure you: a lot of women who ARE raped don't report it.

Conventional warfare traditionally involved soldiers fighting soldiers. Civilian casualties happened, but civilians themselves were not targeted. That's not to say villages and cities weren't sacked...they were....and women raped. Nonetheless, this last century has seen more widespread warfare than any other time in history, due to an increase in the human population and the ability to attack on wider scales. Civilians have become the targets....the meaning of Total War. These atrocities still receive little relative attention. Men are not born rapists or killers...they are taught to be such. If we can not prove that rape is on the rise (because we will never have accurate numbers, past, present or future), we can at least be safe in saying that it will continue to remain a serious, and underaddressed problem.Men are not taught to be rapists, you place a group of young men together in a climate of distruction and death and they'll figure it out on their own.

War has always been brutal and civilians have always suffered the most. History tends to gloss over this fact and I still maintain that, while it is an issue that deserves attention, it is no new or rising phenomena

jordaxia. i agree with you 100% telegram me if you like.

I can also assure you: a lot of women who ARE raped don't report it.
again. their own problem.

if you have a gun, you will use it to protect yourself and kind.. you don't have scrutinize men. if you get in a situation, it there. i have carried a gun since i was 19 years old and on my own in the world, i give little thought to it, except when i have to clean it, or lock it up and put it on a high shelf when my nieces and nephews visit. i said nothing about teaching men anything. fact is, males are pretty neglected when it comes to being taught proper sexual attitudes. i am referring to what is happening in society on a subliminal level. i think your problem lies with the fact you want every laid out in sticks. and life, it just isn't that way.
You carry a gun with you. I do not. Are you any safer than I am? Have I been a victim of violence more than you have? I don't think so (I don't know your story, but on a whole, I've been pretty safe) Guns don't solve the problem...and you accuse ME of wanting things to be laid out in sticks (that's kind of a weird saying by the way)?

I can also assure you: a lot of women who ARE raped don't report it.

And after cases like the Kobe debacle who can blame them.

When we live in a world of ugly realities we cannot act as if it is a beautiful utopia. Doing so can get one killed.
Nor can we live as though everyone is evil and danger lurks around every bend. Doing so can get you killed. (through stress-related conditions)

again. their own problem.

It is also a problem when a society exists in which it can so easily be ignored. There needs to be more education on the subject and WAY WAY harsher penalties.

Nor can we live as though everyone is evil and danger lurks around every bend. Doing so can get you killed. (through stress-related conditions)
There's a happy medium. You can usually tell by your surroundings whether you should pay extra attention to those around you. I'll admit I check people's hands and look to see if a weapon is printing through their pockets when I'm walking at night. You'd be surprised how many folks are armed.

You carry a gun with you. I do not. Are you any safer than I am? Have I been a victim of violence more than you have? I don't think so (I don't know your story, but on a whole, I've been pretty safe) Guns don't solve the problem...and you accuse ME of wanting things to be laid out in sticks (that's kind of a weird saying by the way)?

you live in a different country. with a smaller population. i live south of los angeles. i work at night. and yes, i am far more safer than you. i am armed with a backbone, a .45, and the general knowledge that anything can happen , anytime. and, btw, my weapon has saved my skin, and it was against your fellow citizens. so watch out, they do live "up there" . and i hope they don't happen upon you one night.

It is also a problem when a society exists in which it can so easily be ignored. There needs to be more education on the subject and WAY WAY harsher penalties.
ignored? report the assault, and be honest about the circumstances. that is what went wrong with the kobe bryant case.

what?? a child is a minor. not yet responsible for their own life. a college student walking on campus alone at 2 am is an adult, and should take care of herself. and a boxing match is a planned, organized event. getting jumped in the parking lot and assaulted is not. wow. you are a complete zealot.

Thank you for resorting to ad hominem instead of having a real point.

Yes, I am a zealot for thinking that a raped woman is not at fault for not fending off the attacker. I am a zealot because I blame the criminal, not the victim. I am a zealot because I see rape as being a much more complex issue than just, "I looked in a dirty magazine, I can't help myself, let's go rape some women!" I am a zealot because I don't think women should have to carry guns wherever they go.

I don't see how there could really be any cases of women raping men. The mechanics of sex make such an occurence essentially impossible. How does that 1% of female rapists manage it?

I can think of some possibilities just off hand
I. If a woman had sex with a minor but sexually functioning male, say a 40 year old woman has sex with a 15 year old boy, that would be technically speaking statutory rape (sic) The boy might be fairly willing if she was an attractive woman, but she'd still really be taking advantage of him.
There have been cases with a less extreme age difference like the Le Tourneu case in Washington state. Remember sex with anyone male or female under a certain age, particularly if there is more than a like a two or three year age difference is statutory rape, guys can be jailbait too. Rare but it happens sometimes.
II. If a woman forciably used a foreign object to sexually assualt someone, say used a broomhandle or something on a guy analy, or for that matter analy or vaginally on a female person.
III. If a woman forced someone, male or female to be the recipient or provider of oral sex against their will.
VI. Rarest of all but still possible, stimulated a man until he had an erection and then had sex with him. The man might not actually WANT to have sex but he'd perhaps have an erection involuntarily in response to physical stimulus or a drug.
In conclusion, I guess that makes for a few ways it could happen.

where do they get these classes? canada has them? they certainly don't have them here. you told me earlier men are not being taught...... get a grip.
No, I said men are not being forced to commit rape because they are surrounded by porn. The issue goes deeper than sexuality. Rape is not about sex, it's about domination. Rape is not a one-sided loving act...it is violence. You could watch porn for days on end and still not rape someone.

while i have no problem with a woman carrying a gun for protection, perhaps we can agree that she shouldnt HAVE to carry one? that its a flaw in our society that needs to be worked on?

Men are not taught to be rapists, you place a group of young men together in a climate of distruction and death and they'll figure it out on their own.

Men are taught when they are raised to belief a woman's body is not her own...that it belongs to her husband, her boyfriend, or any man who desires to dominate her. Men are taught when they realise they can get away with it; when they are encouraged to hate women, when they are encouraged to disrespect women. I do not live in a society of death and destruction, yet rape occurs.

Men are taught when they are raised to belief a woman's body is not her own...that it belongs to her husband, her boyfriend, or any man who desires to dominate her. Men are taught when they realise they can get away with it; when they are encouraged to hate women, when they are encouraged to disrespect women. I do not live in a society of death and destruction, yet rape occurs.
What about men who rape other men?

again. their own problem.
Uh huh...and children who are abused and don't tell. Their own problem. Oh wait, they don't count in this because they aren't adults, nor responsible for their protection, by your accounts. But women, being adults, are responsible and if they don't fight hard enough that's their problem. If they feel shamed or traumatized and don't wish to be victimized again as the rape is explored in lurid detail in the courtroom....their fault...suck it up, right? Do underage rape victims factor into the: 'it's not their fault column' in your book? Or are they in the 'their own problem' column?

And after cases like the Kobe debacle who can blame them.
Occidio, apparently.

There's a happy medium. You can usually tell by your surroundings whether you should pay extra attention to those around you. I'll admit I check people's hands and look to see if a weapon is printing through their pockets when I'm walking at night. You'd be surprised how many folks are armed.
This is a sidenote, but I am really, really happy to live in a place where that isn't the case:).

This is a sidenote, but I am really, really happy to live in a place where that isn't the case:).
It's mostly knives in my area, but it does depend on the neighborhood.

Thank you for resorting to ad hominem instead of having a real point.

Yes, I am a zealot for thinking that a raped woman is not at fault for not fending off the attacker. I am a zealot because I blame the criminal, not the victim. I am a zealot because I see rape as being a much more complex issue than just, "I looked in a dirty magazine, I can't help myself, let's go rape some women!" I am a zealot because I don't think women should have to carry guns wherever they go.
its not one look at a magazine, its an entire culture, grabbing them by the balls, so to speak. and if you fight, more power to you,its not your fault . however, if you have a gun- you aren't going to lose.
plus, finding reasons behind infinite- old problems wastes tax dollars. just do something to stop it.

What about men who rape other men?
What about it? (That is not meant to be dismissive, I'm just not sure what you're asking)

its not one look at a magazine, its an entire culture, grabbing them by the balls, so to speak. and if you fight, more power to you,its not your fault . however, if you have a gun- you aren't going to lose.
plus, finding reasons behind infinite- old problems wastes tax dollars. just do something to stop it.
Like......this is what I wanted all along...some good ideas for solutions....besides just shooting would-be rapists, please.

while i have no problem with a woman carrying a gun for protection, perhaps we can agree that she shouldnt HAVE to carry one? that its a flaw in our society that needs to be worked on?


Here, here. I appreciate this point. Both Occidio Multus, who feels she must carry a gun to protect herself, and Sinuhue, who feels she shouldn't have to carry a gun to be safe, (essentially opposite ends of this issue) should be able to support this assertion.

Uh huh...and children who are abused and don't tell. Their own problem. Oh wait, they don't count in this because they aren't adults, nor responsible for their protection, by your accounts. But women, being adults, are responsible and if they don't fight hard enough that's their problem. If they feel shamed or traumatized and don't wish to be victimized again as the rape is explored in lurid detail in the courtroom....their fault...suck it up, right? Do underage rape victims factor into the: 'it's not their fault column' in your book? Or are they in the 'their own problem' column?

you could also cure half of child molestations if parents did not trust other people with their kids. and , yes, i mean grandpa and uncle too. when you have a child, you should protect your offspring with every defense possible. usually, that just means raising them at home, with a stay at home parent, and no babysitter.

I don't see how there could really be any cases of women raping men. The mechanics of sex make such an occurence essentially impossible. How does that 1% of female rapists manage it?


Stat rape with underage men...

Here, here. I appreciate this point. Both Occidio Multus, who feels she must carry a gun to protect herself, and Sinuhue, who feels she shouldn't have to carry a gun to be safe, (essentially opposite ends of this issue) should be able to support this assertion.
i said it once, i will say it again. people who think they can repair inherent flaws in a damaged society are wasting money and time. and hiding. step up, and STOP THE PROBLEM.

What about it? (That is not meant to be dismissive, I'm just not sure what you're asking)
dunno

Like......this is what I wanted all along...some good ideas for solutions....besides just shooting would-be rapists, please.

would be?? what are you talking about? if hishands around my neck, or he threatening me physically, he is getting shot. enough said. what, you want me to wait until he almost has his P**** inside me, then ask him to don a condom?

however, if you have a gun- you aren't going to lose.


Not necessarily true. Carrying a gun, but not having the knowledge or the willingness to use it is not going to help you. Carrying a gun and having someone take it away from you can make matters worse.

To bring up an old Hollywood stereotype, how many movie scenes can you remember that show a woman pointing a gun at a man, freaked out, but reluctant to fire - and having that man talk her down or otherwise remove the gun from her possession?

Yes he's usually the hero and nothing bad happens, but that could just as easily be a smoothtalking 'bad guy'.

It may be a Hollywood stereotype, but we blame a lot of actions and reactions on Hollywood.

More women need to carry guns.

mace would be better rape is a close hand battle the gun would most likly be taken away

i said it once, i will say it again. people who think they can repair inherent flaws in a damaged society are wasting money and time. and hiding. step up, and STOP THE PROBLEM.
We're still waiting for your solution...you stop the problem how? By the way, your statement would be kind of funny if I changed it just a bit:

i said it once, i will say it again. people who think they can repair inherent flaws in a damaged body are wasting money and time. and hiding. step up, and STOP THE PROBLEM.....treat the symptom, not the disease? Is this your approach to society?

i said it once, i will say it again. people who think they can repair inherent flaws in a damaged society are wasting money and time. and hiding. step up, and STOP THE PROBLEM.

How do you STOP THE PROBLEM without 'repairing the inherent flaws'? Perhaps I'm missing something, but to me that appears to be a circular argument.

Not necessarily true. Carrying a gun, but not having the knowledge or the willingness to use it is not going to help you. Carrying a gun and having someone take it away from you can make matters worse.

To bring up an old Hollywood stereotype, how many movie scenes can you remember that show a woman pointing a gun at a man, freaked out, but reluctant to fire - and having that man talk her down or otherwise remove the gun from her possession?

Yes he's usually the hero and nothing bad happens, but that could just as easily be a smoothtalking 'bad guy'.

It may be a Hollywood stereotype, but we blame a lot of actions and reactions on Hollywood.
i agree. i took two years of personal defense and firearm safety classes. i started at age 18. your point is 100 percent agreeable.

would be?? what are you talking about? if hishands around my neck, or he threatening me physically, he is getting shot. enough said. what, you want me to wait until he almost has his P**** inside me, then ask him to don a condom?
I said would-be, assuming you were going to kill him. I thought it would be weird to say 'rapist', because then you'd be shooting him AFTER he raped you...kind of defeats the purpose, doesn't it?

By the way, this is weird...my whole picture of you in my head (based on your comments) changed when I realised you were a woman.

wheres the "I dont give a shit" option?

How do you STOP THE PROBLEM without 'repairing the inherent flaws'. Perhaps I'm missing something, but to me that appears to be a circular argument.
No it isn't. Yes it is. Oh wait, it isn't. Uh, yup, yup, it is. I'm dizzy. :D

wheres the "I dont give a shit" option?
I took it out, because I figured if you didn't care, you wouldn't post. Sorry you proved me wrong.

We're still waiting for your solution...you stop the problem how? By the way, your statement would be kind of funny if I changed it just a bit:

....treat the symptom, not the disease? Is this your approach to society?

funny. however, you could go for years thinking and figuring why o why. meanwhile, women are getting attacked. take some classes, arm your self in some way, and go on with life. you would be ready, and able, in the case that you are confronted .

I said would-be, assuming you were going to kill him. I thought it would be weird to say 'rapist', because then you'd be shooting him AFTER he raped you...kind of defeats the purpose, doesn't it?

By the way, this is weird...my whole picture of you in my head (based on your comments) changed when I realised you were a woman.

that always happens. any how, you are a great debator. you present your ideals ina clear concise way. i hope though, nothing ever happens where your safety is threatened. :)

COME TO PARADISE CLUB NOW! IT'S THE GREATEST PLACE TO BE WHEN YOU WANNA TALK WITH FRIENDS AND HAVE A DRINK.
The hell...?

funny. however, you could go for years thinking and figuring why o why. meanwhile, women are getting attacked. take some classes, arm your self in some way, and go on with life. you would be ready, and able, in the case that you are confronted .

Look, I'm not deliberately trying to be obtuse here. Yes, women need to be aware there is danger out there...the reality we live in means we can't always get drunk and walk home at night safely. Being prepared, good. Being paranoid...too extreme. But no amount of preparedness is going to guarantee your safety. It is not the solution. It is a method of coping.

Solutions come from realising there is a problem (do I sound like Al-Anon here?), figuring out why that problem exists, and come up with strategies to deal with it. Being prepared is one of those strategies (so all you Boy Scouts, good job!), but a solution is a larger thing, encompassing many strategies like education, gender equity, punishment, rehabilitation, citizen involvement and so on. When you make it all about a woman being prepared to fend off an attacker, you make this issue all about the woman. It isn't just a 'woman thing'.

Well, personally, I think the Sinuhue's of the world are necessary. If someone doesn't come up with ways to change things (however long it may take) things never will change. Meanwhile the Occidio Multus' world view is practical: you need to limit your exposure to dangerous situations and know how to protect yourself. Me, I limit my exposure, choose to live in a city where violent acts on strangers is relatively rare, and know how to defend myself, although I do not feel the need to carry a firearm.

that always happens. any how, you are a great debator. you present your ideals ina clear concise way. i hope though, nothing ever happens where your safety is threatened. :)
Ah...now you are making assumptions about my ability to defend myself, simply because I do not think that self-defense alone will solve this issue. My safety has been threatened on more than one occasion...and in much more serious situations that I care to recall...however, that doesn't make me feel less safe, and it doesn't make me feel like I need to carry weapons. I'm still alive, and I've never had to kill another human being.

Your pole is kind of loaded. It explains why the results are so far one way. Would you mind rewording it.

Look, I'm not deliberately trying to be obtuse here. Yes, women need to be aware there is danger out there...the reality we live in means we can't always get drunk and walk home at night safely. Being prepared, good. Being paranoid...too extreme. But no amount of preparedness is going to guarantee your safety. It is not the solution. It is a method of coping.

It's been happening since man walked the earth so to speak. Its not changing any time soon.


Solutions come from realising there is a problem (do I sound like Al-Anon here?), figuring out why that problem exists, and come up with strategies to deal with it. Being prepared is one of those strategies (so all you Boy Scouts, good job!), but a solution is a larger thing, encompassing many strategies like education, gender equity, punishment, rehabilitation, citizen involvement and so on. When you make it all about a woman being prepared to fend off an attacker, you make this issue all about the woman. It isn't just a 'woman thing'.

Well lets face something. 1 There will always be rapists, 2 The police cant be everywhere or even most places, 3 The logical deduction is that you should protect yourself. Cause no one else is going to do it for you.

Your pole is kind of loaded. It explains why the results are so far one way. Would you mind rewording it.
I don't think you can edit your poll...can you? In any case, many polls are loaded....this one is not really meant to be objective.

It's been happening since man walked the earth so to speak. Its not changing any time soon.



Well lets face something. 1 There will always be rapists, 2 The police cant be everywhere or even most places, 3 The logical deduction is that you should protect yourself. Cause no one else is going to do it for you.
Yes, thank you for a post that quotes me, but in no way deals with my points. Very constructive.

I don't think you can edit your poll...can you? In any case, all polls are loaded....this one is not really meant to be objective.

Then why bother?

How do you STOP THE PROBLEM without 'repairing the inherent flaws'? Perhaps I'm missing something, but to me that appears to be a circular argument.

i think they are saying that we need to tear down society and start again

Then why bother?
Why NOT bother? I admit, I have a thing with polls. By the way, are you bugging all the other poll-posters on this forum? Let me show you some more targets for your outrage:

No! The death penalty is completely and absolutely always wrong! 26 37.14%
No, this was just a cry for help. 6 8.57%
Yes, his idiocy caused the deaths of eleven people and he should be punished. 36 51.43%
Yes! Suicide shoudl be punishable by death anyways!
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=392756

Who is Jesus
A Four-Star Baby Chef
Max Barry in Human Form
The Son of Todd
The Guy Next Door Who Let's His Trash Build Up Until It Stinks Up the Whole Complex
The Left Fielder for the Hiroshima Toyo Carp
I Am Going Have This Poll Shut Down, Heathen
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=392852

Do you have something else to add to the discussion?

Men are taught when they are raised to belief a woman's body is not her own...that it belongs to her husband, her boyfriend, or any man who desires to dominate her. Men are taught when they realise they can get away with it; when they are encouraged to hate women, when they are encouraged to disrespect women. I do not live in a society of death and destruction, yet rape occurs.The difference is that when rape occurs in the society you live in the perpatrator knows in the back of his mind he's committing a wrongful act.

In the chaos of war, among brothers in arms it is common over the centuries for such things to be suspended.

I submit that this is not because these men don't see women as people but because they are in a climate that teaches them that the enemy and the civilian population is not human. Moralistic societies still produce soldiers that commit atrocities. It is necessary to dehumanize those who you fight and kill. It's part of our nature, unfortunately this same dehumanizing produces atrocities.

i said it once, i will say it again. people who think they can repair inherent flaws in a damaged society are wasting money and time. and hiding. step up, and STOP THE PROBLEM.
well gee
if he hits you over the head with a brick or renders you unconscious some other way, youre gun isnt going to help you

if he gets your purse or wherever you are keeping your gun away from you before you can get it out, its not going to help you

if you go to his hotel room for a little "kissy kissy" and he decides its going to be more, your gun isnt going to help you.

if you misread him as harmless right up to the time he decides to rape you, your gun isnt going to help you.

a gun can be a big equalizer but its NOT the answer to rape. to think that you are safe because you have a gun in your purse is just foolish.

The difference is that when rape occurs in the society you live in the perpatrator knows in the back of his mind he's committing a wrongful act.

In the chaos of war, among brothers in arms it is common over the centuries for such things to be suspended.

I submit that this is not because these men don't see women as people but because they are in a climate that teaches them that the enemy and the civilian population is not human. Moralistic societies still produce soldiers that commit atrocities. It is necessary to dehumanize those who you fight and kill. It's part of our nature, unfortunately this same dehumanizing produces atrocities.
I can agree with this.

Yes, thank you for a post that quotes me, but in no way deals with my points. Very constructive.

Thats ok :p .

All right I shall reword it, see if you can understand. In your first comment you said that currently we are just coping with the issue and not trying to solve it. I said that I didn't think there was a acceptable solution, or at least in the near future.

What I meant by my second point was that it is about the victim. If you dont want to be attacked or raped or killed ect then you have to defend yourself. There arent any angles out there to do it for you. The police are a cleanup crew they arent there to bodyguard every single person. The world is a big bad place.

Ah...now you are making assumptions about my ability to defend myself, simply because I do not think that self-defense alone will solve this issue. My safety has been threatened on more than one occasion...and in much more serious situations that I care to recall...however, that doesn't make me feel less safe, and it doesn't make me feel like I need to carry weapons. I'm still alive, and I've never had to kill another human being.
i am pleased to hear this. truly, i am. i am assured though, you werent confronted with the three very tall, very menacing g.w.n.ers that wanted to annihilate me in the parking lot of my work place. and also, relieved. i dont think any one would have lived through that event. alas, i didn't fatally wound any one. although, i kind of wish i did.

Solutions come from realising there is a problem (do I sound like Al-Anon here?), figuring out why that problem exists, and come up with strategies to deal with it. Being prepared is one of those strategies (so all you Boy Scouts, good job!), but a solution is a larger thing, encompassing many strategies like education, gender equity, punishment, rehabilitation, citizen involvement and so on. When you make it all about a woman being prepared to fend off an attacker, you make this issue all about the woman. It isn't just a 'woman thing'. Hmm, I think most people are just saying that, like any other crime, rape is going to happen, and continue to happen and that a woman would do well to protect herself from it.

If I told a shopkeeper to put locks on his doors, would I be making burglary "all about shopkeepers?"

i think they are saying that we need to tear down society and start again
Yes, dealing with rape and violence against women would rock our society to its foundations, and cause its eventual collapse.

Did the abolition of slavery destroy U.S happen by tearing down its society and starting over? No, the society remained, but it was changed. Did abolition mean the end of racism? No, but now, U.S citizens can not own slaves. That's progress. Change does not in and of itself destroy. We don't need to start over...we need to make things BETTER.

i had to add numbers to your post to address each point well gee
1.if he hits you over the head with a brick or renders you unconscious some other way, youre gun isnt going to help you

2.if he gets your purse or wherever you are keeping your gun away from you before you can get it out, its not going to help you

3.if you go to his hotel room for a little "kissy kissy" and he decides its going to be more, your gun isnt going to help you.

4.if you misread him as harmless right up to the time he decides to rape you, your gun isnt going to help you.

5.a gun can be a big equalizer but its NOT the answer to rape. to think that you are safe because you have a gun in your purse is just foolish.
1.the brick isnt coming close. i would have already assessed the danger of someone entering my personal space, and fired. if he threw the brick, most likely it won't knock me out. i train extensively, and can take one hell of a beating from my instructor.
2. it is not in my purse. i dont even have a purse.
3. you would never catch me going to any guys hotel room for a little of anything, that is idiotic behavior. unless he is my boyfriend. then if he gets crazy, see number one.
4. see one,two, and three.
5. its not about the gun. it is about the personal safety classes i took, my continued training , and common sense. plus being italian doesn't hurt either :D

Sigh...it's an issue that bothers me a lot, especially considering that the majority of attackers (in cases of rape or other violence) are KNOWN to the victim...not just strangers off the street. In cases of war, that is of course not the same. There is one up...international laws are expanding to include systematic and widespread rape as war crimes if committed during military action...in fact, I believe two men were charged with the war crimes trials of soldiers during the Kosovo conflict. It's a step. quoted from Sinhue
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually I don't know about in Africa, but I can tell you for a fact that in the Balkans when rape occured it often also involved men known to the women who were the victims, it was not unsual for the attackers to be the police in a given municipality, or to be from the village over the hill, or a bunch of louts from the next block of tower flats.
It was not always soldiers stationed far away from their point of origin. There were numerous accounts of men ordered specifically to rape women and feeling bad about it and trying to make it look like they had done it, but not actually doing anything. There were accounts of women who recognized the voice of a neighbor, or several neighbors and said 'Hey aren't you ashamed to do this ?'
It was all ethnicities that to one degree or another committed this crime, and all ethnicities which suffered this crime.

Incidentally rape was not recognized as a war-crime until after the Bosnian War. The women and girls who testified in the Hague Tribunal showed great courage in doing so.

Rape as a crime of war occured in the Algerian War of Independance French soldiers frequently raped Algerian women and girls. Often the French ordered troops from other colonies to commit rape. Of course one facet of rape is that it is a particularly humiliating crime, and in certain cultures it is not understood well that the woman is not at fault, particularly in the circumstance of war.

What the Algerian government did after the war was all over was to
I. Declare women and girls who were raped in the course of the war martyrs of the revolution. As the West has learned to it's cost, the word 'martyr' 'shaheed' carries weight it no longer carries in the West.
II. In the case of a girl who was raped, they gave her TWICE the dowry of a virgin.
III The government declared it the patriotic duty of men to marry such women, or in the case of married women who were raped, to keep their wife, not to divorce her because she'd been 'dishonoured'.
IV. They provided to the best of the ability of a Third World government medical attention for these women and girls.

I feel very sad that these measures were not taken in Bosnia Hercegovina. I think they would be good steps.
It is NOT enough to punish the perpetrators, yes indeed they MUST be punished, harshly, but it is important as well to change the attitude that makes rape such an 'attractive' war-crime, namely the desire to destroy a community by destroying it's women and girls.

Perversly, rape is a recognition of the value of women as the very SOURCE of the community even at the same time it's a degradation. You don't destroy something which is worthless or without value.


If a woman's life in her community is finished due to rape, it doesn't just hurt her, it hurts her children, her husband, her brothers, her father, her mother, and any who might know of the crime.

The Algerian solution was absolutely unheard of in it's day, and it's a shame it was forgotten as a means of dealing with this sort of thing.
It turns the 'worth' of rape as a war-crime right on it's head!

Thats ok :p .

All right I shall reword it, see if you can understand. In your first comment you said that currently we are just coping with the issue and not trying to solve it. I said that I didn't think there was a acceptable solution, or at least in the near future.

What I meant by my second point was that it is about the victim. If you dont want to be attacked or raped or killed ect then you have to defend yourself. There arent any angles out there to do it for you. The police are a cleanup crew they arent there to bodyguard every single person. The world is a big bad place.
It's not that bad...it really isn't. You make it sound like people get attacked repeatedly, from all sides all the time. How many times have you been robbed or threatened in your life? By the way, I'm not asking for angles, or even angels for that matter to protect me. I've already stated that protection isn't the answer. You are saying there isn't ANY solution. I say you lack vision. There is an answer to every problem...you just have to work at it. I suspect we are dealing with an optimism/pessimism issue here, not one of rape and violence.

Hmm, I think most people are just saying that, like any other crime, rape is going to happen, and continue to happen and that a woman would do well to protect herself from it.

If I told a shopkeeper to put locks on his doors, would I be making burglary "all about shopkeepers?"

No, but your analogy doesn't quite work. Nobody says that a shopkeeper is 'asking for it' if he gets robbed, but there is often a vocal minority that says that about women who were raped. Societal attitudes towards the victims of these two crimes are different. If you look at places that follow Sharia law, you even have cases of relatives killing women who have been raped, to regain the family's honour.

It's not a proven fact. For years the existance of female, black, and other minority serial killers was denied even though there were clear instances of it occuring. Plus how many countries with a white minority bother to make an accurate count of serial murderers?

They weren't denied. They were recorded. And it turned out that white males do it most. I've seen instances of every race doing it, but the majority of cases were white males. This comes from statisticians who are predominantly white. Get over your race and just admit the statistics. Violent crimes come from all races, not just blacks as some people would like to say. In fact, the most disgusting of all practices other than cannibalism is found among White males, specifically ones of Northern European (mostly Germanic) extraction.

No, but your analogy doesn't quite work. Nobody says that a shopkeeper is 'asking for it' if he gets robbed, but there is often a vocal minority that says that about women who were raped. Vocal minorities say all kinds of things about anything at all! It doesn't mean that society at large subscribes to thier view.

I have heard people saying that shopkeepers/people were 'asking for it.'

"What idiot would park their car there at night?"
"It's stupid not to have your doors locked"

Societal attitudes towards the victims of these two crimes are different. If you look at places that follow Sharia law, you even have cases of relatives killing women who have been raped, to regain the family's honour.Sharia law != Western Society.

Telling someone that it is wise to protect yourself is NOT saying that it is their fault/issue.

i am pleased to hear this. truly, i am. i am assured though, you werent confronted with the three very tall, very menacing g.w.n.ers that wanted to annihilate me in the parking lot of my work place. and also, relieved. i dont think any one would have lived through that event. alas, i didn't fatally wound any one. although, i kind of wish i did.
:D Are we comparing battle scars too? :eek: By the way...what are g.w.ners?

It's not that bad...it really isn't. You make it sound like people get attacked repeatedly, from all sides all the time. How many times have you been robbed or threatened in your life? By the way, I'm not asking for angles, or even angels for that matter to protect me. I've already stated that protection isn't the answer. You are saying there isn't ANY solution. I say you lack vision. There is an answer to every problem...you just have to work at it. I suspect we are dealing with an optimism/pessimism issue here, not one of rape and violence.

I think protection is the best solution. I simply find it imposible to beleive that utopian societies can exist. I didn't mean that we were surrounded by enemies but that they are out there. Also if the problem is not that bad then why do we need to take large measures to counteract it?

Sharia law != Western Society.

Telling someone that it is wise to protect yourself is NOT saying that it is their fault/issue.

People still immigrate from societies where Sharia law is pre-eminant. Just because they move somewhere where another rule of law exists doesn't mean that their attitudes and the things they teach their children change.

Besides, not all of us who play in NS are from the West.

Vocal minorities say all kinds of things about anything at all! It doesn't mean that society at large subscribes to thier view.

I have heard people saying that shopkeepers/people were 'asking for it.'

"What idiot would park their car there at night?"
"It's stupid not to have your doors locked"

And do they delve into all aspects of the shopkeeper's or car owner's life?

Rape victims histories are held up: "She had an affair a year ago, she's obviously a licentious woman." "She has been known to sleep around." As if her past sexual freedoms had anything to do with whether a crime was committed.

I have never heard anyone say: "Well, sometimes he forgets to lock his shop, so its his own fault that someone broke in this time."

:D Are we comparing battle scars too? :eek: By the way...what are g.w.ners?
:) i tattooed over all of mine, or maybe you could say i tattooed mine on my skin. thats another thread.....

g.w.n ers- great white northerners i.e., canadians. not about race, just the fact that i went there in the winter- and , damn, it was white and snowy and cold.

I don't see how there could really be any cases of women raping men. The mechanics of sex make such an occurence essentially impossible. How does that 1% of female rapists manage it?
foreign objects can be used for rape, and drugs can be used to incapacitate a victim so the rapist's individual physical strength is no longer important.

remember, rape is about power, about humiliatiing the victim, and about causing pain...it's not necessarily about a man ejaculating, so there is no reason why the "mechanics of sex" would inhibit a woman from raping a man.

Men are taught when they are raised to belief a woman's body is not her own...that it belongs to her husband, her boyfriend, or any man who desires to dominate her. Men are taught when they realise they can get away with it; when they are encouraged to hate women, when they are encouraged to disrespect women. I do not live in a society of death and destruction, yet rape occurs.

Whoa, when do we get taught that? I must have missed that class at school. I got taught four things about women when I was growing up.


Girls can kick my ass as well as anyone else can.
Girls can be pretty spiteful, which is at least as bad as guys can smack me around.
Female people can be fun to be friends with, and can usually out drink me.
Women are great to have a relationship with, cos they're smart, compassionate and wonderful partners.


I sure as hell don't remember any stuff on womens bodies belonging to men. What school did you go to?

http://www.about-face.org/goo/newten/

The above website is very interesting. It shows the recurring themes in sexist or demeaning advertisements, and the subliminal (although unintentional) message they portray.

The media is very influential after all. Take a look at the 'gallery of offenders'.

Whoa, when do we get taught that? I must have missed that class at school. I got taught four things about women when I was growing up.


Girls can kick my ass as well as anyone else can.
Girls can be pretty spiteful, which is at least as bad as guys can smack me around.
Female people can be fun to be friends with, and can usually out drink me.
Women are great to have a relationship with, cos they're smart, compassionate and wonderful partners.


I sure as hell don't remember any stuff on womens bodies belonging to men. What school did you go to?

When you marry, do you expect your wife to take your last name?

Sinuhue is talking about the vestiges of the old belief that women were the chattel or property of their father or husband. For example, until recently, it was not believed that a husband could rape a wife. In essence, the feeling was that it was a wife's marital duty to provide sex and forcing her to comply was not an act of rape.

Fortunately, those attitudes have been fading for years, just as racist attitudes are generally fading, although many would argue about the rate at which they are disappearing.

Whoa, when do we get taught that? I must have missed that class at school. I got taught four things about women when I was growing up.


Girls can kick my ass as well as anyone else can.
Girls can be pretty spiteful, which is at least as bad as guys can smack me around.
Female people can be fun to be friends with, and can usually out drink me.
Women are great to have a relationship with, cos they're smart, compassionate and wonderful partners.


I sure as hell don't remember any stuff on womens bodies belonging to men. What school did you go to?
this kid, i like :D

I personally think that there is too much protection of rapists in our legal system. It seems that a lot (I won't say most because I don't know the facts, and I'm not gonna look for them right now) of rapists are repeat offenders, rape, get caught, go to jail, get out, rape again. Also, we need to find some way to encourage rape victims to report their abusers. i've heard 3% and 16%, but those leave a 84-97% chance of getting away with a rape.

Also, I don't think anyone is badmouthing gun ownership and protecting yourself, and I don't think that calling for some kind of social reform is living in an imaginary utopia in your head. We need to use some sort of cultural reform to try and cut off those things encouraging rape.

Yes, dealing with rape and violence against women would rock our society to its foundations, and cause its eventual collapse.

Did the abolition of slavery destroy U.S happen by tearing down its society and starting over? No, the society remained, but it was changed. Did abolition mean the end of racism? No, but now, U.S citizens can not own slaves. That's progress. Change does not in and of itself destroy. We don't need to start over...we need to make things BETTER.

I should point out that rape is already illegal. A unilateral decision by a single person or governing body isn't going to prevent all future rapes. In order to adaquatly protect women from would-be rapists the government would have to install survailance cameras in every home, it would have to post police officers on every block around the clock. For the government to protect the citizens from every crime would mean creating a tolitatian police state. Most people would consider this to be bad.
Insted we an give women the tools needed to protect themselves in these situations, tools that they are born with but are socialized out of them.
Girls in out society are taught to be passive, acquiescent, and meek while boys are taught to express to be commanding their aggressive impulses. There is no reason for this. Girls are just as capible of violence as men are. Yet, they are taught to sublimate their instincts and impulses.

Girls sould be taught to act on their instincts, to be agreesive, and to kick ass. If more women and girls kicked ass their would be fewer rapes. It isn't just a matter of fending off a rapist, it is a matter of creating an culture in which men (and women themselves) don't see women as submissive victims in need of protection. It is the belief that women are weaker and less capible that makes them such tempting victims in the first place. It women's belief in their own weakness that makes them easy targets. People who are confident and strong don't make good victims so criminals rarely choose them. No one would willingly attack a stronger advasary.

So men and women, tech your daughters to kick ass. Raise them on Laura Croft and Xena. Buy the Buffy Seasons 1-3 DVD boxedsets and force your daughters to watch them constantly. Show them that women can be strong and still be feminine. Tell them that it is alright to beat up boys. Teach them the groin-kick but make sure that they know it is only an attack of last resort that can easily be deflected by a skilled opponet. Let them take martial arts lessons at a serious dojo. Buy them rifles and take them target shooting or hunting. Buy them knives to hone and sharpen.
Read to them from The Art of War every night before they go to bed. Give them leatherbound coppies of The Book of Five Rings.

Parents, teach your daughters to kick ass. Teach them to assert themselves, to be confident and to be strong. Make the world a better place for everyone.

ignored? report the assault, and be honest about the circumstances. that is what went wrong with the kobe bryant case.

What went wrong with the Kobe case was the Media. If they'd have kept their mouths shut until the case was completed and not overexpose the thing, just like with O.J., perhaps there could actually have been a fair trial. Now that will never happen.

Occidio, apparently.

Makes me wonder if he's ever been "falsely" accused, which does happen, but IMO far less frequently than unreported cases.

Rape as a crime of war occured in the Algerian War of Independance French soldiers frequently raped Algerian women and girls. Often the French ordered troops from other colonies to commit rape. Of course one facet of rape is that it is a particularly humiliating crime, and in certain cultures it is not understood well that the woman is not at fault, particularly in the circumstance of war.

What the Algerian government did after the war was all over was to
I. Declare women and girls who were raped in the course of the war martyrs of the revolution. As the West has learned to it's cost, the word 'martyr' 'shaheed' carries weight it no longer carries in the West.
II. In the case of a girl who was raped, they gave her TWICE the dowry of a virgin.
III The government declared it the patriotic duty of men to marry such women, or in the case of married women who were raped, to keep their wife, not to divorce her because she'd been 'dishonoured'.
IV. They provided to the best of the ability of a Third World government medical attention for these women and girls.

I feel very sad that these measures were not taken in Bosnia Hercegovina. I think they would be good steps.
It is NOT enough to punish the perpetrators, yes indeed they MUST be punished, harshly, but it is important as well to change the attitude that makes rape such an 'attractive' war-crime, namely the desire to destroy a community by destroying it's women and girls.
This had me thinking all night...you're right that it's not enough to punish the perpetrators (though this is essential), but especially in situations such as this, the issue of rape needs to be reassessed socially.

Perversly, rape is a recognition of the value of women as the very SOURCE of the community even at the same time it's a degradation. You don't destroy something which is worthless or without value.
That's a very good point...how best to humiliate your hated neighbour than rape his wife or daughter? It is not a violence only aimed at the woman herself...it is a violence aimed at her family and community as well. It is a declaration that, "You can not protect this woman...you are powerless".


If a woman's life in her community is finished due to rape, it doesn't just hurt her, it hurts her children, her husband, her brothers, her father, her mother, and any who might know of the crime.

The Algerian solution was absolutely unheard of in it's day, and it's a shame it was forgotten as a means of dealing with this sort of thing.
It turns the 'worth' of rape as a war-crime right on it's head!I think it's a very interesting idea to turn the act of rape into a recognised part of an armed conflict...a man injured in war is not defiled, or lacking now in honour...rape is a tool of aggression that (usually) targets females...it should be considered an injury and treated as such. Is the woman any more at fault that the man, injured in conflict?

This is based so deeply in our cultures that value the 'purity' of the woman, yet encourage the promiscuity of men. These values set men and women at odds....women are taught to resist, and men are taught to overcome resistance (through flattery, wooing, or outright force). How many men have been made to feel ashamed in their lives for not sleeping with enough women? (plenty) Few would admit to virginity, because it somehow lessens them in the eyes of their peers. A man is considered such when he 'proves' his manhood sexually, though not every man wishes to be promiscuous. Women, on the other hand, are supposed to repress desire (or are believed to have none), are constantly threatened with the spectre of unplanned pregnancy and disease, promiscuity is seen as morally reprehensible, and a woman's value becomes based on her ability to fend off the advances of men. In the west, we have made inroads in some of these beliefs...women feel more free to express their desire here...but men are still very much pressured into traditional sexual roles.

Rape wouldn't stop if women's sexuality was less constrained by cultural values...but the stigma that follows it would lessen. Women would still be targeted in zones of conflict, because rape or no, hurting women will always cause pain to her family and community....just as the torture of a man before his community would. However, if the community accepted her after her rape...if they did not somehow blame her for this crime...she would be able to heal in time from the physical and emotional wounds inflicted on her.

Ay...that's enough for a while...

I think protection is the best solution. I simply find it impossible to believe that utopian societies can exist. I didn't mean that we were surrounded by enemies but that they are out there. Also if the problem is not that bad then why do we need to take large measures to counteract it?

You misunderstand me. I said "it's not that bad" in response to a post that painted a picture of a society with a criminal behind every corner. There are dangers...and some areas hold more danger than others...but the vast majority of people on this planet are not constant victims of violence.

The issue of violence against women, however, is a large problem. It is a problem in zones of armed conflict, and it is a problem in each and every society that exists; it's the degree of severity that varies. Many women will never be physically or sexually assaulted...but many will, and many more women are victims of these crimes than men. No one is asking for a utopian society, yet every single time I bring up something and say, "Look at this, we CAN change it..." people start hysterically talking about me wanting to 'tear down society and start over' or 'create a utopian society...that's just so unrealistic!'. Do you get this blocked in your mind when someone mentions tax reform? Do you stand up and scream, "THAT WOULD TAKE A UTOPIA, AND UTOPIAS ARE IMPOSSIBLE!" !!!????

Seriously...why do people insist on believing that things are the way they are 'because they've always been that way, and they won't change any time soon'? Look at what we as a species have accomplished, just in the last century, and tell me things don't change, or are 'impossible'. We have tried, again and again, to find a better way...we've gone through different political and economic models, all with the goal of bettering humanity. We've failed, we've won, and we've failed again....but the battle is never completely lost, or completely won. When you refuse to ACT against injustice, you are complicit in it. When you remain silent on an issue, you are by default agreeing to the status quo. When you say, "SOMEONE ELSE WILL HANDLE THIS"...you lose the power to mould your own destiny. You have that right. But don't go screaming hysterically when someone else choose to ACT instead of WATCH. You can proclaim until you're blue in the face that change for the better can never happen, but you will always be completely, and unequivocally wrong.

Whoa, when do we get taught that? I must have missed that class at school. I got taught four things about women when I was growing up.


Girls can kick my ass as well as anyone else can.
Girls can be pretty spiteful, which is at least as bad as guys can smack me around.
Female people can be fun to be friends with, and can usually out drink me.
Women are great to have a relationship with, cos they're smart, compassionate and wonderful partners.


I sure as hell don't remember any stuff on womens bodies belonging to men. What school did you go to?

Apparently not the same school as you, because my school at least bothered to identify and discuss how society's values help to shape our own. It is ridiculous to say, "Whoa...everything I ever learned was in school, and they never taught a class about male domination...". Don't be deliberately obtuse. Informal education has a much stronger role in our learning and our behaviours than formal education. Your parents, your peers, members of your community ALL help shape your personal culture. If you parents are racist, you'll likely be a racist...until you're old enough to recognise that racism for what it is, and consciously choose to accept, or reject it. The same goes for your attitudes about women. NOT ALL MEN ARE TAUGHT that women are inferior or sexual objects, just as NOT ALL PEOPLE ARE TAUGHT that one race is better than another. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and it doesn't mean it isn't widespread. It just means that your parents and peers and assorted role models taught you WELL. We do not grow in a vacuum...we are influenced by our environment and our genetics. In the end, it is up to us to overcome our cultural conditioning and make choice about what to keep, and what to toss.

Makes me wonder if he's ever been "falsely" accused, which does happen, but IMO far less frequently than unreported cases.
please read the entire thread, before popping in with something- it was well established that i, occidio multus, was born female, and still am. got it? ;)

So men and women, tech your daughters to kick ass. Raise them on Laura Croft and Xena. Buy the Buffy Seasons 1-3 DVD boxedsets and force your daughters to watch them constantly. Show them that women can be strong and still be feminine. Tell them that it is alright to beat up boys. Teach them the groin-kick but make sure that they know it is only an attack of last resort that can easily be deflected by a skilled opponet. Let them take martial arts lessons at a serious dojo. Buy them rifles and take them target shooting or hunting. Buy them knives to hone and sharpen.
Read to them from The Art of War every night before they go to bed. Give them leatherbound coppies of The Book of Five Rings.

Parents, teach your daughters to kick ass. Teach them to assert themselves, to be confident and to be strong. Make the world a better place for everyone.

Yes, and when your girl doesn't want to shoot guns, or get in fights, or throw knives, tell her she's wrong and she has to do it anyway...just like we do to our boys. When she cries, tell her to suck it up and 'be a woman'. That's done wonders for our men. Teach them to be promiscuous as an answer to the restrictions female sexuality...teach them to not care so much, to be 'macho'. Let's ratchet up the aggression level in both genders...and let's make sure everyone is armed. If you have a girl that doesn't get this kind of training, and she gets attacked, blame it on her for not being prepared. If you have a boy that attacks a girl, blame it on the girl, because she should've known how to fight him off. Never, ever lay the blame at the perpetrator's feet. If women didn't act so weak and helpless....men wouldn't rape them.

Right.

rape is a violation of your body and mind....
the rest is just relative.

Makes me wonder if he's ever been "falsely" accused, which does happen, but IMO far less frequently than unreported cases.
Yeah, it had me going for a while until I realised she was a woman...changed my whole perspective on her argument...not that I agree with it any more now than I did then.

please read the entire thread, before popping in with something- it was well established that i, occidio multus, was born female, and still am. got it? ;)
Good morning:) Or night...whatever time it is where you're at...are you ready for a few more rounds? :D

please read the entire thread, before popping in with something- it was well established that i, occidio multus, was born female, and still am. got it? ;)

Okay, I apologize for messing up your gender. Has someone you know been falsely accused? or do you just think this isn't a real issue.

Yeah, it had me going for a while until I realised she was a woman...changed my whole perspective on her argument...not that I agree with it any more now than I did then.

I have known women with similar ideas, so it isn't that surprising, but I shouldn't have made the assumption she was male. That's on me.

I think women with that kind of opinion either haven't been exposed to the issue directly or they believe that women who get raped should be strong enough to stop or are somehow responsible. There are a few cases where either of the latter to can be part of the issue, but ultimately, the person who commits the crime is responsible IMO.

When we don't denounce the behavior repeatedly and publically and enact severe penalties while society continues to be more and more sexualized and have its expectations of "getting some" raised by the media, we can expect this problem to grow.

Okay, I apologize for messing up your gender. Has someone you know been falsely accused? or do you just think this isn't a real issue.
(sorry for speaking for you Occ...I know you can do it yourself, but...)

Her position is not that it isn't an issue, but that the solution to the problem is to make sure women can fend off attackers.

I personally think that there is too much protection of rapists in our legal system. It seems that a lot (I won't say most because I don't know the facts, and I'm not gonna look for them right now) of rapists are repeat offenders, rape, get caught, go to jail, get out, rape again. Also, we need to find some way to encourage rape victims to report their abusers. i've heard 3% and 16%, but those leave a 84-97% chance of getting away with a rape.

Also, I don't think anyone is badmouthing gun ownership and protecting yourself, and I don't think that calling for some kind of social reform is living in an imaginary utopia in your head. We need to use some sort of cultural reform to try and cut off those things encouraging rape.
To be fair in most states rape is right (almost ) on par with murder as far as punishment standards. (and those without death penalty they are damn closed)

But as I learned in physiology class … sex rooted crimes (pedophilia, rape…) have the highest statistical reoccurrence rates of any crime out there. Changed brain chemistry and perception are just part of the condition.(usually linked to trauma in early childhood (abuse, molestation) )

More punishment I just don’t think will help (unless they are NEVER let out … which is an option) I don’t know the solution but pretty sure nothing “harsher” will change them, and therapy while helping has been depressingly unresponsive in changing that deep rooted of behavior (it DOES work but the timescales are enormous)

I guess the only thing that comes to mind is long jail time and lots of therapy

(sorry for speaking for you Occ...I know you can do it yourself, but...)

Her position is not that it isn't an issue, but that the solution to the problem is to make sure women can fend off attackers.

While I have no problem with a woman fending off attackers, that isn't the problem. The real problem that needs to be addressed is the attacker. The reality is that no amount of training will save you when someone puts a gun to the back of your head by surpise and it can happen to anyone who doesn't lead a life of paranoia looking in every corner for a bad guy gun drawn and ready to fire. Women, or men for that matter, shouldn't have to live like that.

To be fair in most states rape is right (almost ) on par with murder as far as punishment standards. (and those without death penalty they are damn closed)
???????

But as I learned in physiology class … sex rooted crimes (pedophilia, rape…) have the highest statistical reoccurrence rates of any crime out there. Changed brain chemistry and perception are just part of the condition.(usually linked to trauma in early childhood (abuse, molestation) )

again???what did you learn?

ore punishment I just don’t think will help (unless they are NEVER let out … which is an option) I don’t know the solution but pretty sure nothing “harsher” will change them, and therapy while helping has been depressingly unresponsive in changing that deep rooted of behavior (it DOES work but the timescales are enormous)


relative

I guess the only thing that comes to mind is long jail time and lots of therapy

no,it is destroying (culture),and therapy does not have anything to add...

To be fair in most states rape is right (almost ) on par with murder as far as punishment standards. (and those without death penalty they are damn closed)

But as I learned in physiology class … sex rooted crimes (pedophilia, rape…) have the highest statistical reoccurrence rates of any crime out there. Changed brain chemistry and perception are just part of the condition.(usually linked to trauma in early childhood (abuse, molestation) )

More punishment I just don’t think will help (unless they are NEVER let out … which is an option) I don’t know the solution but pretty sure nothing “harsher” will change them, and therapy while helping has been depressingly unresponsive in changing that deep rooted of behavior (it DOES work but the timescales are enormous)

I guess the only thing that comes to mind is long jail time and lots of therapy

I don't think jail time or death penalty is the answer either. I much prefer, humanly making a eunich out of the offender. It won't solve all of them, but I guarentee it would deter many.

BTW, therapy doesn't work well for socio-paths as an intervention. Not that all rapists are socio-pathic, but many are.

I don't think jail time or death penalty is the answer either. I much prefer, humanly making a eunich out of the offender. It won't solve all of them, but I guarentee it would deter many.
But we have proven cases in death penalty enforcement situations of them just doing it anyway … even on second or third offenses.

The threat is there but they don’t care honestly.

And beyond threat most molestation cases don’t actually involve genital contact from the male anyways and “chemical” castration has not had the desired effect either (killing the testosterone)

(at least in our criminal justice and my psychology class … I will try to dig up the studies when I get home)

???????



again???what did you learn?




relative



no,it is destroying (culture),and therapy does not have anything to add...
1 statistical reoccurrence rates with reference to crime/ age / location / gender / race

Which points out that sex based crimes have highest rate of reoccurance (even with reporting rates as low as they are with rape … and the stats only cover caught criminals)

2 everything is relative ????argument????

3 ???opinion???

But we have proven cases in death penalty enforcement situations of them just doing it anyway … even on second or third offenses.

The threat is there but they don’t care honestly.

And beyond threat most molestation cases don’t actually involve genital contact from the male anyways and “chemical” castration has not had the desired effect either (killing the testosterone)

(at least in our criminal justice and my psychology class … I will try to dig up the studies when I get home)

Harsh penalties as a deterant only work when they are enforced regularly and publically, neither of which really apply to the death penalty.

For a socio-path they rarely ever care about anything other than potential harm to themselves. As a psych. major, who has worked with my share of socio-paths in a Community Mental Health setting, I've both witnessed this reality and studied it.

Okay, okay, to be fair, I haven't really given any concrete explanations of things I think people could do to cut down on instances of violence against women. I apologize to those who I've wailed on throughout this thread, and I offer this, a specific example of something that works:

Talking to teens about this stuff does wonders. I lived in the Northwest Territories for the last 3 years, and for a year in a very isolated, fly-in community close to the Arctic Ocean. Abuse is very common in this community...there's a lot of physical and sexual abuse, high cases of depression and suicide, lots of drug use and assorted problems all concentrated into a very small population.

A group, funded in part by UNIFEM and by the Government of Canada organised a series of educational forums for teens in this community. We talked about a range of topics, sex, contraception, pregnancy, disease, relationships, family...kids were encouraged to speak as openly and frankly as possible. We explored boys views of their own sexuality and that of girls'. Girls talked about how they felt pressured to 'put out', but were called sluts if they did. Boys explained that they felt pressured to have sex. They said that sometimes they didn't listen when a girl said no, and girls admitted that sometimes they had sex to 'fit in', even if they didn't want to. We spoke to each gender separately, then together, exploring attitudes and giving information. The teenagers THEMSELVES drew up an agreement that they all signed, agreeing to boundaries that respected the right of girls to say no, that girls and boys would access community resources to deal with abuse or their own anger if they were abusive, that they would have safe, consensual sex, and that violence against either gender would not be tolerated by their peers. They agreed to look out for one another and they were genuinely relieved to finally be talking about something that was always under the surface but never, ever discussed. Two years later, the result has been: less cases of STDs, pregnancies, more 'reported' abuse, though informal interviews with groups of teens has led to the conclusion that actual incidences have fallen, and instances of violence are less tolerated or kept quiet about.

These same kinds of workshops have been used in many countries in Africa where the spread of AIDs has been exacerbated by local superstitions (having sex with a virgin will cure you of AIDs, and other falsehoods) and gender values. Open and frank discussion has had a real impact in many of these communities. Education alone won't solve the problem...but education, tougher laws, rehabilitative programs and greater social awareness can make a much more lasting, and effective change.

...Somewhere in America, a woman is raped every 2 minutes...
Poor girl :(

While I have no problem with a woman fending off attackers, that isn't the problem. The real problem that needs to be addressed is the attacker. The reality is that no amount of training will save you when someone puts a gun to the back of your head by surpise and it can happen to anyone who doesn't lead a life of paranoia looking in every corner for a bad guy gun drawn and ready to fire. Women, or men for that matter, shouldn't have to live like that.
I agree.

well, is it relative to you? to nummers you see ?or to your culural background?

and is rape, in the 21 srt century the same as in the middle ages?

I don't think jail time or death penalty is the answer either. I much prefer, humanly making a eunich out of the offender. It won't solve all of them, but I guarentee it would deter many.

BTW, therapy doesn't work well for socio-paths as an intervention. Not that all rapists are socio-pathic, but many are.
I don't agree. There aren't that many serial rapists compared to single offenders or rapes that occur within a relationship (marriage or otherwise). There are just some people who still don't realise that no means no and not, "I'm saying no, but really it means yes". Date-rape and acquaintance rape are the least reported, but the most prevalent types of rape.

Poor girl :(
I know getin it every two minuits

Okay, okay, to be fair, I haven't really given any concrete explanations of things I think people could do to cut down on instances of violence against women. I apologize to those who I've wailed on throughout this thread, and I offer this, a specific example of something that works:

Talking to teens about this stuff does wonders. I lived in the Northwest Territories for the last 3 years, and for a year in a very isolated, fly-in community close to the Arctic Ocean. Abuse is very common in this community...there's a lot of physical and sexual abuse, high cases of depression and suicide, lots of drug use and assorted problems all concentrated into a very small population.

A group, funded in part by UNIFEM and by the Government of Canada organised a series of educational forums for teens in this community. We talk about a range of topics, sex, contraception, pregnancy, disease, relationships, family...kids were encouraged to speak as openly and frankly as possible. We explored boys views of their own sexuality and that of girls'. Girls talked about how they felt pressured to 'put out', but were called sluts if they did. Boys explained that they felt pressured to have sex. They said that sometimes they didn't listen when a girl said no, and girls admitted that sometimes they had sex to 'fit in', even if they didn't want to. We spoke to each gender separately, then together, exploring attitudes and giving information. The teenagers THEMSELVES drew up an agreement that they all signed, agreeing to boundaries that respected the right of girls to say no, that girls and boys would access community resources to deal with abuse or their own anger if they were abusive, that they would have safe, consensual sex, and that violence against either gender would not be tolerated by their peers. They agreed to look out for one another and they were genuinely relieved to finally be talking about something that was always under the surface but never, ever discussed. Two years later, the result has been: less cases of STDs, pregnancies, more 'reported' abuse, though informal interviews with groups of teens has led to the conclusion that actual incidences have fallen, and instances of violence are less tolerated or kept quiet about.

These same kinds of workshops have been used in many countries in Africa where the spread of AIDs has been exacerbated by local superstitions (having sex with a virgin will cure you of AIDs, and other falsehoods) and gender values. Open and frank discussion has had a real impact in many of these communities. Education alone won't solve the problem...but education, tougher laws, rehabilitative programs and greater social awareness can make a much more lasting, and effective change.

Not that these things are bad, but what the heck happened to parenting? Shortly after my dad died when I was 8 or so, my mom started talking to my brother and me about sex, what it was, what was and wasn't acceptable including rape, how it fit into our religious beliefs, what made it a beautiful, enjoyable and sacred thing and how to be able to do it with no harm being done to anyone involved, emotional, physical or otherwise. Some of that info. came along gradually and it wasn't sensualized when she presented it. It was really more like attending class, but we grew up with a clear understand of the issue.

I know my mother is a saint, but still, it isn't rocket science.

I know getin it every two minuits
Are you drunk?

Poor girl :(
Okay...I get it now...I was a bit put off at first, but that does indeed sound silly...

Are you drunk?
Nope at work ... same thing though

I don't agree. There aren't that many serial rapists compared to single offenders or rapes that occur within a relationship (marriage or otherwise). There are just some people who still don't realise that no means no and not, "I'm saying no, but really it means yes". Date-rape and acquaintance rape are the least reported, but the most prevalent types of rape.

That is true, but if the issue was dealt with publically, I believe my solution would be a very significant deterant for acquaintance and date rape. Most of those people would be seriously concerned about consequences that derasitc.

Nope at work ... same thing though
awwwwww :fluffle:

awwwwww :fluffle:
Come here you :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle:

helllloooo. and good morning. sorry if my responses are slow, as i am nursing a wegian with a broken leg.
let me straighten one thing out about my argument here. I am sure there are better solutions to stop men from becoming sexual attackers. however, i feel that because a.) society and sexual culture in the world is so far overboard
and, b.) it would take too much time[years and years], money, and gov't interference to start this attitude upheaval, that i have decided, in the short finite time i have on this earth, do everything in my absolute power not to become victimized. you can talk about a gun to the back of ones head and such, but let's face it, that type of situation is random and the result of fate. study the logistics of the majority of attackers, and even, if you are really interested, look up what the attackers say themselves about easy targets. women alone at night, living alone, distracted on the cellular phone, meeting in a booze - soaked encounter, etc, etc.you cannot argue with the fact that i am less likely to become a victim if i armed with a gun, and can use my intensive personal safety training. i am less likely to be caught oiff guard, and more likely to know how to assess the situation and level of danger and then react accordingly. (use a soldier and his training for an example) i will not wait decades for this world, esp the states, to attempt to change the sometimes uncurable sect of the population that has some sort, any type , of reason to rape. i will protect myself, and those in kind. i will never bow down to anyones else need to inflict harm upon my person. i will not be a victim, and if by chance, someone does "get " me? look for their face lying on the floor, because i would have torn it off before i died.

Not that these things are bad, but what the heck happened to parenting? Shortly after my dad died when I was 8 or so, my mom started talking to my brother and me about sex, what it was, what was and wasn't acceptable including rape, how it fit into our religious beliefs, what made it a beautiful, enjoyable and sacred thing and how to be able to do it with no harm being done to anyone involved, emotional, physical or otherwise. Some of that info. came along gradually and it wasn't sensualized when she presented it. It was really more like attending class, but we grew up with a clear understand of the issue.

I know my mother is a saint, but still, it isn't rocket science.
No, but neither is it as easy as making macaroni.

I'm glad you were taught so well. That isn't the case for many, many children. Especially in the community I mentioned...Residential Schools tore native families apart, and from one generation to the next, traditional values were lost. The norm in the North in these communities is for the grandmother to raise her children's children....just as she was raised by her grandmother. Parenting isn't a strong suit right now, which is something that needs working on. There's no licensing for parenting out there...some are fantastic, and some are terrible at it. Education needs to pick up where parents leave off...would it have hurt you at all to be involved in such a discussion, already coming from a background that had addressed these issues? Unlikely...and you would probably have a lot to offer to other kids in terms of values about these things. Leaving it up to parents who don't talk about it is much more harmful than a little repetition.

Rapists should experience some *clip-clip* before they are thrown to jail for the rest of their sick life!

That is true, but if the issue was dealt with publically, I believe my solution would be a very significant deterant for acquaintance and date rape. Most of those people would be seriously concerned about consequences that derasitc.
You don't think that people already realise the punishments for rape are serious? The problem is that many men don't think they are committing rape in cases of date-rape or acquaintance rape. The girls was dressed provocatively, she got drunk, she said no, but didn't kick him in the balls...to him, not rape.

Edit: OR, "She's my wife...this CAN'T be rape!"

helllloooo. and good morning. sorry if my responses are slow, as i am nursing a wegian with a broken leg.
What the heck is a wegian? You use some strange words.... :D

sinuhue- i just read your post about the workshops. i think it is a good step. however, has th ecrime rate been tracked among the attendees of those classses? how do you get the already damaged older population?

helllloooo. and good morning. sorry if my responses are slow, as i am nursing a wegian with a broken leg.
let me straighten one thing out about my argument here. I am sure there are better solutions to stop men from becoming sexual attackers. however, i feel that because a.) society and sexual culture in the world is so far overboard
and, b.) it would take too much time[years and years], money, and gov't interference to start this attitude upheaval, that i have decided, in the short finite time i have on this earth, do everything in my absolute power not to become victimized. you can talk about a gun to the back of ones head and such, but let's face it, that type of situation is random and the result of fate. study the logistics of the majority of attackers, and even, if you are really interested, look up what the attackers say themselves about easy targets. women alone at night, living alone, distracted on the cellular phone, meeting in a booze - soaked encounter, etc, etc.you cannot argue with the fact that i am less likely to become a victim if i armed with a gun, and can use my intensive personal safety training. i am less likely to be caught oiff guard, and more likely to know how to assess the situation and level of danger and then react accordingly. (use a soldier and his training for an example) i will not wait decades for this world, esp the states, to attempt to change the sometimes uncurable sect of the population that has some sort, any type , of reason to rape. i will protect myself, and those in kind. i will never bow down to anyones else need to inflict harm upon my person. i will not be a victim, and if by chance, someone does "get " me? look for their face lying on the floor, because i would have torn it off before i died.

I getcha...I'm not waiting for society to start creating all the necessary conditions for more environmental protection either...I do as much as I can on my own, much as you have taken your protection into your own hands...I don't disagree with that. However, I want to be a part of a process that HELPS create conditions to deal with these issues because doing it on my own isn't a solution, it's way of dealing with the issue personally. Both methods: personal responsibililty and action to change wider societal issues: are necessary. Done.:)

You don't think that people already realise the punishments for rape are serious? The problem is that many men don't think they are committing rape in cases of date-rape or acquaintance rape. The girls was dressed provocatively, she got drunk, she said no, but didn't kick him in the balls...to him, not rape.
they are not serious in the us in most states. here in california , a first offender with no prior does 3 yrs for aggravated sexual assault. they will be released in 14 months with good behavior. sometimes sooner, if the county jails are crowded.

helllloooo. and good morning. sorry if my responses are slow, as i am nursing a wegian with a broken leg.
let me straighten one thing out about my argument here. I am sure there are better solutions to stop men from becoming sexual attackers. however, i feel that because a.) society and sexual culture in the world is so far overboard
and, b.) it would take too much time[years and years], money, and gov't interference to start this attitude upheaval, that i have decided, in the short finite time i have on this earth, do everything in my absolute power not to become victimized. you can talk about a gun to the back of ones head and such, but let's face it, that type of situation is random and the result of fate. study the logistics of the majority of attackers, and even, if you are really interested, look up what the attackers say themselves about easy targets. women alone at night, living alone, distracted on the cellular phone, meeting in a booze - soaked encounter, etc, etc.you cannot argue with the fact that i am less likely to become a victim if i armed with a gun, and can use my intensive personal safety training. i am less likely to be caught oiff guard, and more likely to know how to assess the situation and level of danger and then react accordingly. (use a soldier and his training for an example) i will not wait decades for this world, esp the states, to attempt to change the sometimes uncurable sect of the population that has some sort, any type , of reason to rape. i will protect myself, and those in kind. i will never bow down to anyones else need to inflict harm upon my person. i will not be a victim, and if by chance, someone does "get " me? look for their face lying on the floor, because i would have torn it off before i died.

Or at least died trying.

An appropriate response.

Knowing how to defend one's self is important and valuable, but it isn't a real solution to the societal problem. It may solve a case here or there, but, as with most criminal behavior, the better society gets at defending itself, the better the criminal gets at minimizing those defenses.

If it gives you a sense of security and empowerment to have those skills and improves your quality of life, they aren't a bad thing. But, if you spend enough time worrying about that and guarding yourself that it impedes your ablility to experience and enjoy life and/or causes you to look at every male as suspect it is boarding on a "clinical" adjustment disorder. I'm not saying which group you personally fall into. I've know women on both sides of that.

What the heck is a wegian? You use some strange words.... :D
done. this was great debate. i respect you , anbd how your ideas are presented. a wegian= my kind of sort of norwegian boyfriend :)

sinuhue- i just read your post about the workshops. i think it is a good step. however, has th ecrime rate been tracked among the attendees of those classses? how do you get the already damaged older population?

Crime rates are easy to track in the community, since its small. Youth crime has not disappeared, but it is no longer as serious...they get bored, they paint buildings instead of getting bored and having non-consensual sex. PLUS the older, damaged population committing abuses are being reported on much more than before...especially in cases of incest which were rampant, and rarely reported. There wasn't much of an attempt to reeducate the older folks directly, but the kids are kind of doing it on their own, through changed attitudes and awareness of resources and consequences.

You don't think that people already realise the punishments for rape are serious? The problem is that many men don't think they are committing rape in cases of date-rape or acquaintance rape. The girls was dressed provocatively, she got drunk, she said no, but didn't kick him in the balls...to him, not rape.

Edit: OR, "She's my wife...this CAN'T be rape!"

They do, but there is little that is more psychologically motivating for a "typical" male than the prospect of losing his genetalia. As for the educational issue about date rape or rape within a marital relationship, that would definitely need to be paired with any changes in policy or precede them.

they are not serious in the us in most states. here in california , a first offender with no prior does 3 yrs for aggravated sexual assault. they will be released in 14 months with good behavior. sometimes sooner, if the county jails are crowded.
Granted, the punishments are unevenly meted out...I'm just balking at the idea of capital punishment or immediate castration. :) But that's just me...

Crime rates are easy to track in the community, since its small. Youth crime has not disappeared, but it is no longer as serious...they get bored, they paint buildings instead of getting bored and having non-consensual sex. PLUS the older, damaged population committing abuses are being reported on much more than before...especially in cases of incest which were rampant, and rarely reported. There wasn't much of an attempt to reeducate the older folks directly, but the kids are kind of doing it on their own, through changed attitudes and awareness of resources and consequences.
So teens rape out of boredom?

Alright, it's been a lark, and thanks everyone for being reasonable, but I have to do some work for a change, so, I'll read you later!

Chao!

Rape is being used more and more as a tactic in war, targeting female civilians in an effort to terrorise. (Civilians now make up roughly 70% of casualties in armed conflicts) It is also being used as a form of ethnic domination, forcing pregnancies upon women in a ridiculous bid to 'breed them out'. Gang rape is a brutal tactic that has been used in the conflicts in the Congo, currently in the Sudan (Darfor), in India during race riots, in Indonesia (in Aceh, before the tsunami) and in various other warring areas of the world.



However, rape is also on the rise in the 'civilised' west, yet by how much is hard to estimate since the proportion of rapes reported to authorities vary — from less than 3 per cent in South Africa to about 16 per cent in the US. Violence, sexual, physical or emotional, against women has not been adequately decreased even in the industrialised world. While there are laws in our countries against such violence, there is little public acknowledgment of unreported crimes, or crimes that happen in spite of these laws.

My question is why. Why is this not an issue not considered more important? Here are some stats (just for the U.S):

*Somewhere in America, a woman is raped every 2 minutes, according to the U.S. Department of Justice. http://www.paralumun.com/issuesrapestats.htm

*An estimated 91% of victims of rape are female, 9% are male and 99% of offenders are male. (Bureau of Justice Statistics 1999) http://www2.ucsc.edu/rape-prevention/statistics.html

*Only 2% of rapists are convicted and imprisoned. (US Senate Judiciary Committee 1993) (same source as above)

*In a survey of college males who committed rape, 84% said what they did was definitely not rape. (Warshaw, Robin 1994 "I Never Called It Rape") (same source as above)

Violence against women is a problem that is not being dealt with adequately. What can we do about it? What needs to change?

What men can do: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/vawo/

While this is a real issue, it doesn't jive with the poll.


Violence against women:
is a serious problem. We need to do more to prevent it.
has been dealt with. Let's start thinking about men for a change!

The implication is that violent acts against opne person are somehow more significant than violent actrs against another.

You didn't include an option that (unprovoked, non-defensive) violence against others, regardless of sex, is unacceptable. This does an injustice to rape. Rape is an act of violence. But placing it in terms of gender, it becomes a sex act. Forced acts of violence are evil. Period. Full Stop. No consideration of gender, "race", ethnicitry, culture, etc. of the victem or perpetrator.

So teens rape out of boredom?
One more reply....

One of the things the teens in this community identified as a factor in non-consensual sex was boredom...they are very isolated, and there isn't much to do in the long, dark winter...no rec centre, no swimming pool, no activities. So kids get together in someone's basement, get stoned out of their skulls, and often that leads to having sex, (in some cases, when the girl is already unconscious). Did they plan it? Plot it? No...but it happened, and was rarely reported or dealt with. No, boredom doesn't cause a teen to commit rape, no more than any other single factor would...but it was an aspect of the problem in this case.

I have the feeling it is necessary to explain everything in excruciating detail to you so that you don't take it out of context....

While this is a real issue, it doesn't jive with the poll.




The implication is that violent acts against opne person are somehow more significant than violent actrs against another.

You didn't include an option that (unprovoked, non-defensive) violence against others, regardless of sex, is unacceptable. This does an injustice to rape. Rape is an act of violence. But placing it in terms of gender, it becomes a sex act. Forced acts of violence are evil. Period. Full Stop. No consideration of gender, "race", ethnicitry, culture, etc. of the victem or perpetrator.
Agreed

No, but neither is it as easy as making macaroni.

I'm glad you were taught so well. That isn't the case for many, many children. Especially in the community I mentioned...Residential Schools tore native families apart, and from one generation to the next, traditional values were lost. The norm in the North in these communities is for the grandmother to raise her children's children....just as she was raised by her grandmother. Parenting isn't a strong suit right now, which is something that needs working on. There's no licensing for parenting out there...some are fantastic, and some are terrible at it. Education needs to pick up where parents leave off...would it have hurt you at all to be involved in such a discussion, already coming from a background that had addressed these issues? Unlikely...and you would probably have a lot to offer to other kids in terms of values about these things. Leaving it up to parents who don't talk about it is much more harmful than a little repetition.

Like I said, I don't think those are bad ideas. I just think parents need some skills training.

Also, introducing anything "values" related into anything manditory for children, should be with parental consent. IMO. Yes, that creates some potential problems, but I see parental rights and responsibilities as being the trump card here.

yeah any guy who feels the need to rape someone should be lynched.

But, if you spend enough time worrying about that and guarding yourself that it impedes your ablility to experience and enjoy life and/or causes you to look at every male as suspect it is boarding on a "clinical" adjustment disorder. I'm not saying which group you personally fall into. I've know women on both sides of that.

okay, since you don't know me, let me assure you i never worry about anything. i have tried, and it didn't work.i got the training and the gun when i oved out at 19, and never really think about it. by now, to be aware and alert is part of mindset, but it 's not draining any of my energy. and, believe you me, nothing is stopping me from experiencing or enjoying life, nothin at all :)

While this is a real issue, it doesn't jive with the poll.


Yeah, I've already confessed that the poll is crap, and isn't really there to prove anything...the discussion is more the point:)

Sinhue, agree with you 100%, and I think it's rediculous to blame rape and abuse on the increasing 'sexualization' of society. Frankly, I think that the loosening of inhibitions and dismantling of taboos is generally a good thing. When something is seen as normal and natural, there is less reason to try and get it violently.

Admittedly, there is the danger of peer pressure, but people talking about how immoral our age is seem to forget that the Victorian London was filled with child prostitutes, that women used to be married off at age 12... that men were sexually active at 13 or 14...

Also, blaming fashion is rediculous. People always try to push the envelope, it's true, but throughout the 1600s it was the height of fashion for women to go bare-breasted, but unthinkable for them to show their ankles. An attractive person is attractive regardless of what they wear, so blaming the crime on their clothing is... silly.

As for carrying a weapon... that's a dangerous path to follow. If you carry a deadly weapon and don't know how, or aren't willing to use it, it's a good way to end up dead. And even if you think you are willing to, the psychological trauma of killing someone WILL come back to damage you. Humans aren't designed to kill each other, and when we do, we pay a price. If you aren't willing to pay, carry pepperspray or a taser. In america, there are stringent laws about using lethal weapons in self defence, and if you use them, you need to use them to kill. Using a lethal weapon in a non-lethal fashion (slashing someone in the arm instead of throat, shooting them in the leg) indicates that the situation wasn't serious enough to warrent a lethal weapon, and you can find yourself charged.

Still, I have seen women take rediculous risks, and have several friends who have been sexually assaulted. It's not the woman's fault when she gets raped, but sometimes her carelessness can put her in dangerous situations. Its not a matter of assigning blame, the raper is always the criminal at fault, but only a fool wouldn't try to avoid the situation from the begining.

Finally, rape in military settings is nothing new at all. It is traditional for a victorious army to loot and pilliage and rape a captured city... modern pressure against this is relatively new.

they are not serious in the us in most states. here in california , a first offender with no prior does 3 yrs for aggravated sexual assault. they will be released in 14 months with good behavior. sometimes sooner, if the county jails are crowded.

Which is why I like castration. It is a permenant consequence and one that most males would definitely avoid.

Like I said, I don't think those are bad ideas. I just think parents need some skills training.

Also, introducing anything "values" related into anything manditory for children, should be with parental consent. IMO. Yes, that creates some potential problems, but I see parental rights and responsibilities as being the trump card here.
Absolutely. Parental consent was sought, and given in every single case. Not one parent or guardian refused to have their child participate.

One more reply....

One of the things the teens in this community identified as a factor in non-consensual sex was boredom...they are very isolated, and there isn't much to do in the long, dark winter...no rec centre, no swimming pool, no activities. So kids get together in someone's basement, get stoned out of their skulls, and often that leads to having sex, (in some cases, when the girl is already unconscious). Did they plan it? Plot it? No...but it happened, and was rarely reported or dealt with. No, boredom doesn't cause a teen to commit rape, no more than any other single factor would...but it was an aspect of the problem in this case.

I have the feeling it is necessary to explain everything in excruciating detail to you so that you don't take it out of context....
Yup(at least when it is ambigious) because as stated before it was more of a
“well what do you want to do today Johnny”
“I don’t know I’m bored”

“Me to lets rape someone … that would be fun”

As restated it makes a lot more sense (though leads to the question of boredom caused the rape or the sheer fact that they were doing drugs … I would consider drugs more of the causal factor but hey to each their own)

witht the increased sexualization of our society, men are being force fed way too many temptations. the enormous array of scanty clothing that is in style, hollywood stars becoming more and more known for their physiques than talent, mass availability of web based pornography, females that are equaling or toipping mens sexual conquests[and being public about them], etc etc. all these factors are just fuel on the fire of the ticking time bomb that is male sexuality. i feel bad for guys. and women should arm themsleves with something, to fend off an attacker. [ladies, also start watching your drinks in the bar, and quit trusting men so easily] if everyone followed trhis advice, we could cut the rape rate by about 60 % i am no prude, by any sttrreettchh of the imagination, i feel this is just common sense.

so if i strip to my bra you automatically cant help but rape me? that's insulting to men AND women. :confused:

Which is why I like castration. It is a permenant consequence and one that most males would definitely avoid.

Ah, but then you have the problem of convicting an innocent man of the crime, similar to the death penalty. Is it worth sexually mutilating an innocent man to punish 100 guilty ones?

okay, since you don't know me, let me assure you i never worry about anything. i have tried, and it didn't work.i got the training and the gun when i oved out at 19, and never really think about it. by now, to be aware and alert is part of mindset, but it 's not draining any of my energy. and, believe you me, nothing is stopping me from experiencing or enjoying life, nothin at all :)

Then you fit into the catagory for which perparedness is a good thing. It just doesn't work for everyone. I've seen women turned into paranoid basket cases over it. Not everyone seems to be able to balance the issue within a stable life.

One more reply....

One of the things the teens in this community identified as a factor in non-consensual sex was boredom...they are very isolated, and there isn't much to do in the long, dark winter...no rec centre, no swimming pool, no activities. So kids get together in someone's basement, get stoned out of their skulls, and often that leads to having sex, (in some cases, when the girl is already unconscious). Did they plan it? Plot it? No...but it happened, and was rarely reported or dealt with. No, boredom doesn't cause a teen to commit rape, no more than any other single factor would...but it was an aspect of the problem in this case.

I have the feeling it is necessary to explain everything in excruciating detail to you so that you don't take it out of context....
i have to tell you, kids in my community have everything. the beach, the mountains, mon ey, cars, etc etc. i live in the seventh wealthiest county in the world. and there are stll sexual assaults. thats the problem with california, there is no isolation. people from all over the state have access to so many different things. there are so many diverse setups here- cities, rural, inner cityies, suburbs, beach communities, vacation spots, etc. there are so many factors. we also have many people immigrate here from different countries, and states. its a vast, confusing mix. i dont know if your ideas would work here...

Absolutely. Parental consent was sought, and given in every single case. Not one parent or guardian refused to have their child participate.


Then, in your situation, it is a good thing all around. I just know that here in the States there are some places where parental consent wouldn't be unanamous. I am dissappointed by that, but I believe parental rights shouldn't be violated in this process.

Yup(at least when it is ambigious) because as stated before it was more of a
“well what do you want to do today Johnny”
“I don’t know I’m bored”

“Me to lets rape someone … that would be fun”

As restated it makes a lot more sense (though leads to the question of boredom caused the rape or the sheer fact that they were doing drugs … I would consider drugs more of the causal factor but hey to each their own)
:) Absolutely...though the boredom led to the drug use...and the lack of facilities led to the boredom...we don't need to blame one single underlying factor over another.

And to be fair, I mentioned boredom within a very specific context, so it shouldn't have been ambiguous.

so if i strip to my bra you automatically cant help but rape me? that's insulting to men AND women. :confused:
no but the severity to which todays culture is soaked with the examples i listed is changing psyches for the worse.

Any guy who rapes should be "cut off" from being able to commit it again.

More women need to carry guns.
you have that double plus correct.

Dont think so. (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap_cap) Fyi, South Africa handguns and rifles are nearly unregulated and leaglly obtainable by every adult withpout much trouble. And even the US, which is so secure due to every citizens right to bear arms has triple the rate of rapes per capita than the Netherlands, Denmark or Germany, where gun ownership is heavily regulated. Does not compute.

Which is why I like castration. It is a permenant consequence and one that most males would definitely avoid.
what would you do to female offenders

so if i strip to my bra you automatically cant help but rape me? that's insulting to men AND women. :confused:

Don't think she's saying that. But for some, it would make you a more tempting prospect. That doesn't make you legally cuplable IMO, just foolishly setting yourself up to be the target or object of obsession, stalking and probably ridicule as well.

:) Absolutely...though the boredom led to the drug use...and the lack of facilities led to the boredom...we don't need to blame one single underlying factor over another.

And to be fair, I mentioned boredom within a very specific context, so it shouldn't have been ambiguous.
You said boredom which did not make sense in context boredom > drug use > rape makes MORE since


But then you could point to the cause of the boredom as the actual cause … then point to the cause of that … then the cause of that. If all factors are equal

Nor is boredom the only cause of drug use … nor drug use the only cause of rape

I don’t know where I was going with that lol I will think of that later :p

Ah, but then you have the problem of convicting an innocent man of the crime, similar to the death penalty. Is it worth sexually mutilating an innocent man to punish 100 guilty ones?

IMO, Yes.

Which is why I like castration. It is a permenant consequence and one that most males would definitely avoid.

And who cares if it turns out he was convicited incorrectly?

It's a sad fact that some, note some rape charges are false. The stigma sticks, no matter how rediculous the claim, try living with it before you think it's worth dismissing.

There is no cure. Assualt is bad, however it is done.

A question, at what point do you shoot someone? if he grabs you? How are you going to defend yourself against murder charges?

I feel that we all have a duty to ourselves to be aware, and protect ourselves, but the key is "Reasonable Force". That said, it's a shame we need to.

i have to tell you, kids in my community have everything. the beach, the mountains, mon ey, cars, etc etc. i live in the seventh wealthiest county in the world. and there are stll sexual assaults. thats the problem with california, there is no isolation. people from all over the state have access to so many different things. there are so many diverse setups here- cities, rural, inner cityies, suburbs, beach communities, vacation spots, etc. there are so many factors. we also have many people immigrate here from different countries, and states. its a vast, confusing mix. i dont know if your ideas would work here...
Talking to kids, regardless of their particular background, and exploring the attitidues that cause sexual violence should have some impact, no matter how much these kids 'have'. So many attitudes are never examined, and yet they are the foundation of our actions. Exploring those attitudes, discussing them with peers and members of the opposite sex, get things out in the open. They can still choose to rape...but there shouldn't be any confusion left in the boy's or girl's minds about what non-consensual sex entails, and what the consequences are.

Dont think so. (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap_cap) Fyi, South Africa handguns and rifles are nearly unregulated and leaglly obtainable by every adult withpout much trouble. And even the US, which is so secure due to every citizens right to bear arms has triple the rate of rapes per capita than the Netherlands, Denmark or Germany, where gun ownership is heavily regulated. Does not compute.
who are you kidding? like south africans are free to just go buy a gun huh? are you joking?? you can't even get medicine there. in some places. and in the us we cannot just carry a concealed weapon. it does no good if you are out in the public, and your weapon is at home. this is not a gun regulation argument. it is about women being able to defend themselves in a such a way as to prevent many sexual assaults.

Don't think she's saying that. But for some, it would make you a more tempting prospect. That doesn't make you legally cuplable IMO, just foolishly setting yourself up to be the target or object of obsession, stalking and probably ridicule as well.
Agreed. It wouldn't be your fault. It would merely be unessisarily risky.

Then, in your situation, it is a good thing all around. I just know that here in the States there are some places where parental consent wouldn't be unanamous. I am dissappointed by that, but I believe parental rights shouldn't be violated in this process.
So some kids don't talk about it...do you think they won't hear about it from their peers? As long as you can reach some, its worthwhile...even if some parents lock their kids up and they never talk about these things, you've still managed to reach a few, and perhaps change some attitudes. No one is talking about forced participation.

what would you do to female offenders

Possibly the same thing depending on the details of the case.

Talking to kids, regardless of their particular background, and exploring the attitidues that cause sexual violence should have some impact, no matter how much these kids 'have'. So many attitudes are never examined, and yet they are the foundation of our actions. Exploring those attitudes, discussing them with peers and members of the opposite sex, get things out in the open. They can still choose to rape...but there shouldn't be any confusion left in the boy's or girl's minds about what non-consensual sex entails, and what the consequences are.
agreed. it may work to extent. but then again, it doesn't workthat well with drugs and alcohol in some places, so thats why i have my doubts

Originally Posted by Personal responsibilit
Which is why I like castration. It is a permenant consequence and one that most males would definitely avoid


What if he's wrongfully accused? Kind of a permanent punishment don't you think?
Our judiciary system is human, and therefore flawed. I don't know what alternative I can offer, but that seems extreme to me.
--> this is the reason why i'm against the death penalty - not because i don't think some people don't deserve it(they do) but because you never know whether or not a person is being framed, or in the wrong place at the wrong time, or whatever.

IMO, Yes.
IMO no. A prison term is compensatable if incorrectly applied. Physical mutilation or death isn't. I'm sure you would feel very different about it were you that innocent man.

So some kids don't talk about it...do you think they won't hear about it from their peers? As long as you can reach some, its worthwhile...even if some parents lock their kids up and they never talk about these things, you've still managed to reach a few, and perhaps change some attitudes. No one is talking about forced participation.

No arguments here.

The main problem with the issue of rape and violence towards women is that it rarely has a sexual motivation. Rape is used as a means of power and control over one individual, and to counter a pervading sense of disenfancisement. This can be illustrated both with human rights violations that consequence from armed conflicts and with the all-too-common date rape scenarios, particularly those that involve drugs. The rapist that offends in order to satisfy a perverse desire to inflict pain or satisfy some sexual urge is actually rarer than you would think. There is therefore a problem with designing punishment and detterent; lack of pre-meditation and a blurring of the boundaries of right and wrong make for unclear scenarios whereby the perpetrator can be also seen as a victim (ref Rwanda conflict). Having said that, i still believe that violent rapists with multiple convictions should be castrated.

IMO no. A prison term is compensatable if incorrectly applied. Physical mutilation or death isn't. I'm sure you would feel very different about it were you that innocent man.

Actually, if it detered real crimes from happening, I don't think it would be a bad thing. I'm also not saying it should happen in every case, but perhaps with unanimous jury decisions where there is more than just he said, she said evidence. (brusing, evidence of forced penetration, drugging the victim, etc.)

who are you kidding? like south africans are free to just go buy a gun huh? are you joking?? you can't even get medicine there. in some places. and in the us we cannot just carry a concealed weapon. it does no good if you are out in the public, and your weapon is at home. this is not a gun regulation argument. it is about women being able to defend themselves in a such a way as to prevent many sexual assaults.

Yeah, sure. If you were allowed to carry concealed lethal weapons, the rape numbers would be lower. Bold statement. Now, show me evidence. I have shown that the legality of handguns does not correlate to low rape statistics. And yes, adult south-africans without criminal record are free to buy guns. They are even allowed to have freaking flamethrowers as anti-car-theft systems. Dont just try to make me look like an idiot, argue instead.

Yeah, sure. If you were allowed to carry concealed lethal weapons, the rape numbers would be lower. Bold statement. Now, show me evidence. I have shown that the legality of handguns does not correlate to low rape statistics. And yes, adult south-africans without criminal record are free to buy guns. They are even allowed to have freaking flamethrowers as anti-car-theft systems. Dont just try to make me look like an idiot, argue instead.

Trying to compare South Africa to western Europe makes about as much sense as comparing Mount Everest to the Atlantic Ocean. There are so many exteraneous variables there that cloud the issue as to make such a comparison nonsensical.

Actually, if it detered real crimes from happening, I don't think it would be a bad thing. I'm also not saying it should happen in every case, but perhaps with unanimous jury decisions where there is more than just he said, she said evidence. (brusing, evidence of forced penetration, drugging the victim, etc.)

You know occasionally, the wrong person is still convicted.

You are talking about Physical Abuse by the state as something thats good.
Say we get this law, what next, violent robbers get hands removed? Give it few years and jaywalking will result in loss of a foot.

Yeah, sure. If you were allowed to carry concealed lethal weapons, the rape numbers would be lower. Bold statement. Now, show me evidence. I have shown that the legality of handguns does not correlate to low rape statistics. And yes, adult south-africans without criminal record are free to buy guns. They are even allowed to have freaking flamethrowers as anti-car-theft systems. Dont just try to make me look like an idiot, argue instead.
here is the key . i am not real concerned with whether the guns are legal or not. i really don't care. i am not legally authorized to carry a holstered loaded gun. but i do. and it's not just about guns. i dont care if women carry mace, a taser, or medieval era torture instruments. just learn to protect yourself from violence and sexual assault. thats all i am saying.

You know occasionally, the wrong person is still convicted.

You are talking about Physical Abuse by the state as something thats good.
Say we get this law, what next, violent robbers get hands removed? Give it few years and jaywalking will result in loss of a foot.

I don't think physical punishments should ever be involved unless a physical crime is committed. So chopping off hands for stealing would be out, IMO. Jaywalking would be even farther removed.

here is the key . i am not real concerned with whether the guns are legal or not. i really don't care. i am not legally authorized to carry a holstered loaded gun. but i do. and it's not just about guns. i dont care if women carry mace, a taser, or medieval era torture instruments. just learn to protect yourself from violence and sexual assault. thats all i am saying.
also, women in south africa and most of the world over do not have the same rights as a free to do whatever amercan woman. i mean legally and culturally. women in the us, esp, are afforded way more opportunities to measure up .and in certain ways, i take full advantage of my rights as such.

Trying to compare South Africa to western Europe makes about as much sense as comparing Mount Everest to the Atlantic Ocean. There are so many exteraneous variables there that cloud the issue as to make such a comparison nonsensical.

Which is why i mainly compared the US to western/northern Europe. South Africa came in as they sadly lead the rape statistics and still have legal guns.

Which is why i mainly compared the US to western/northern Europe. South Africa came in as they sadly lead the rape statistics and still have legal guns.

Yeah, but 50% of the population can't afford to put food on the table, much less buy a gun.

As for the US, again there are different issues that make comparisons still limited.

also, women in south africa and most of the world over do not have the same rights as a free to do whatever amercan woman. i mean legally and culturally. women in the us, esp, are afforded way more opportunities to measure up .and in certain ways, i take full advantage of my rights as such.
I dont know what picture you have in your mind in regards to SA, but it is a developed first-world country, has equal legal rights for both sexes etc.

here is the key . i am not real concerned with whether the guns are legal or not. i really don't care. i am not legally authorized to carry a holstered loaded gun. but i do. and it's not just about guns. i dont care if women carry mace, a taser, or medieval era torture instruments. just learn to protect yourself from violence and sexual assault. thats all i am saying.

But of coarse, women will only use these when they have not other choice, not say if they caught thier husband out and had one to hand, just as an example.
Women, would never make a mistake, in thier use.

Please. any weapon carried will be used, not allways for the intended purpose.
Ban Guns, knifes, swords etc.

i am not legally authorized to carry a holstered loaded gun. but i do.
You commit a crime in order to prevent another crime. :rolleyes:

also, women in south africa and most of the world over do not have the same rights as a free to do whatever amercan woman. i mean legally and culturally. women in the us, esp, are afforded way more opportunities to measure up .and in certain ways, i take full advantage of my rights as such.
Are you confusing South Africa with some other country? Woman are pretty free there...the same is not the case in some of the neigbouring countries...South Africa is about as unlike Somalia, for instance, as Canada is from Haiti...

Yes, and when your girl doesn't want to shoot guns, or get in fights, or throw knives, tell her she's wrong and she has to do it anyway...just like we do to our boys. When she cries, tell her to suck it up and 'be a woman'.

That's just foolish. Obviously, we shouldn't force people to be what they are not. You're missing the point. No one wants to be weak and powerless and no one wants to be a victim. Yet, we tech girls to be weak and powerless victims all the time. We teach them to ignore their instincts and repress themselves. The point is to show them that it is okay o be strong and it is okay to fight back. People who have strength and self confidence are rarely victims because they are not easy to dominate.

For that matter, men and boys are trapped by gender roles as well. Breaking down the barriers that seperate the masculine and the feminine frees both men and women.

That's done wonders for our men. Teach them to be promiscuous as an answer to the restrictions female sexuality...teach them to not care so much, to be 'macho'. Let's ratchet up the aggression level in both genders...and let's make sure everyone is armed. If you have a girl that doesn't get this kind of training, and she gets attacked, blame it on her for not being prepared. If you have a boy that attacks a girl, blame it on the girl, because she should've known how to fight him off. Never, ever lay the blame at the perpetrator's feet. If women didn't act so weak and helpless....men wouldn't rape them.

Right.

The point isn't to create an atmosphere of violence it is to create an atmosphere of empowerment and equality. Girls are taught that they should be weak and that they should be victims. Boys are taught that girls are weaker and make easy targets. This promotes rape. If society treated girls and boys are true equals it would go far to stop gender discrimination and violence.

It is human nature to dominate others. THose who are dominant have more resources, they live longer, hey have more children and their children live longer. The desire for power is built into our genes. By encouraging men to follow that desire but telling women that they must sublimate women become objects to be dominated.
The great thing about being a man used to be that, no matter how low your status, your wife's status was always just a little bit lower. That isn't right and that won't be corrected as long as people deny the inate human desire for power.

But of coarse, women will only use these when they have not other choice, not say if they caught thier husband out and had one to hand, just as an example.
Women, would never make a mistake, in thier use.

Please. any weapon carried will be used, not allways for the intended purpose.
Ban Guns, knifes, swords etc.

Yeah, my Step-Dad used one to stop and armed robbery in which to stupid store clerks were about to get shot while trying to chase the robber. The only shots fire were by the robber as warnings to the store clerks, which they didn't head, but when my Step-Dad popped up behind the guy and said "Stop or I'll kill you", he stopped, put down the gun and was taken into custody of the police a few minutes later.

Incidentally, my Step-Dad was carrying legally and did so as long as he lived and never did anyone get harmed by one of his weapons.

I dont know what picture you have in your mind in regards to SA, but it is a developed first-world country, has equal legal rights for both sexes etc.
what? there is more violence there, than most places. and more class to class tension.... come on now, jester. its not like living in the states.

Yeah, my Step-Dad used one to stop and armed robbery in which to stupid store clerks were about to get shot while trying to chase the robber. The only shots fire were by the robber as warnings to the store clerks, which they didn't head, but when my Step-Dad popped up behind the guy and said "Stop or I'll kill you", he stopped, put down the gun and was taken into custody of the police a few minutes later.

Incidentally, my Step-Dad was carrying legally and did so as long as he lived and never did anyone get harmed by one of his weapons.

Good on him. although as an aside why carry if you aren't going to use it?

My point is this, Is it acceptable to carry weapons if they can be misused.
I'm thinking Collumbine, and the sniper, and as I said the outraged husband/wife, how many murders would be prevented by the removal of a weapon to hand?

At least if you use Martial arts you feel the blow connect, You might think twice before killing the person laying on the floor.

Yeah, my Step-Dad used one to stop and armed robbery in which to stupid store clerks were about to get shot while trying to chase the robber. The only shots fire were by the robber as warnings to the store clerks, which they didn't head, but when my Step-Dad popped up behind the guy and said "Stop or I'll kill you", he stopped, put down the gun and was taken into custody of the police a few minutes later.

Incidentally, my Step-Dad was carrying legally and did so as long as he lived and never did anyone get harmed by one of his weapons.

Oh we are into anecdotal evidence now? Ok. I stopped a guy beating up his gf. Not because i drew my gun or knife or whatever. No, just by tipping on his shoulder and saying he should step down from his plan. Of course he started to get angry with me and threatened a lot, even pushing me around but i just stood there and let him curse me till the police came. I knew that his threats were mostly empty, because i was larger and he didnt appear to be trained in anything i couldnt handle. And i was sure that he would not draw on me, because the probability of that happening in Germany is next to zero. Doesnt really prove anything, eh?

Oh we are into anecdotal evidence now? Ok. I stopped a guy beating up his gf. Not because i drew my gun or knife or whatever. No, just by tipping on his shoulder and saying he should step down from his plan. Of course he started to get angry with me and threatened a lot, even pushing me around but i just stood there and let him curse me till the police came. I knew that his threats were mostly empty, because i was larger and he didnt appear to be trained in anything i couldnt handle. And i was sure that he would not draw on me, because the probability of that happening in Germany is next to zero. Doesnt really prove anything, eh?

It does one prove one thing, your safer from guns in europe than you are in the US. Everybody allowed to carry weapons does not equal safety.

You commit a crime in order to prevent another crime. :rolleyes:

listen it is not. self defense is not a crime. not at all. i am not out shooting people-

Oh we are into anecdotal evidence now? Ok. I stopped a guy beating up his gf. Not because i drew my gun or knife or whatever. No, just by tipping on his shoulder and saying he should step down from his plan. Of course he started to get angry with me and threatened a lot, even pushing me around but i just stood there and let him curse me till the police came. I knew that his threats were mostly empty, because i was larger and he didnt appear to be trained in anything i couldnt handle. And i was sure that he would not draw on me, because the probability of that happening in Germany is next to zero. Doesnt really prove anything, eh?


That works, but not if the guy has an illegally obtained weapon or happens to be bigger than you or better trained than you.

Anyway, the statement I was responding to said that all weapons eventually get used to cause harm. In this case, my Step-dad's not only didn't cause harm, it stopped potential harm.

A weapon is just a tool, like your size in your anecdote. You could have beat him to death but chose to use your size in a more constructive manner, just like my Step-dad did his H&K 9mm. And in both cases, society and those in harms way were the better for it.

I do believe that violence against women is a serious issue.

But I wonder if it is actually on the rise as stated in the first post. maybe it is just getting reported now more then before.

sorry if someone already stated this.

listen it is not. self defense is not a crime. not at all. i am not out shooting people-
Do you illegally carry a concealed gun or do you not? Is that a crime by itself or is it not? The intent is completely irrelevant. What is your fecking problem either getting a permit for concealed carriage or not taking a gun with you but a taser, mace, pepperspray or whatever is legal?

Do you illegally carry a concealed gun or do you not? Is that a crime by itself or is it not? The intent is completely irrelevant. What is your fecking problem either getting a permit for concealed carriage or not taking a gun with you but a taser, mace, pepperspray or whatever is legal?
you said i commit a crime to commit another crime. i am committing a crime in order to commit self defense. my "fecking problem" is that in my state- you cant get a permit.and you little story about stopping the guy fom hitting the women, thats nice, but arent you a guy? if you are, you just dont get what we were talking about.... and why not a taser? have one. but when i was attacked by three guys, it is a good thing i had a gun, or i would be dead

Do you illegally carry a concealed gun or do you not? Is that a crime by itself or is it not? The intent is completely irrelevant. What is your fecking problem either getting a permit for concealed carriage or not taking a gun with you but a taser, mace, pepperspray or whatever is legal?

There are lots of places in the States that it is impossible to get Conceal and Carry permits. Maybe she lives in one of those places.

That works, but not if the guy has an illegally obtained weapon or happens to be bigger than you or better trained than you.

The likelyhood of him having a illegally obtained gun is really low, because the market for them is small, due to guns being rare items in the first place. If he would have been bigger i would have motivated some passerbys to help me, i did that once when someone threatened another with a nightstick. Surrounded by three people plus his intended victim he quickly ran away.
This is just to illustrate that guns do not neccessarily equal security. You can bet i would have not risked my life intervening when the respective guys had guns or or there was a high probabilty of them having one. It is one thing to get a few bruises or a broken bone, but lying dead on the floor is not what iwould like to be the outcome.

You commit a crime in order to prevent another crime. :rolleyes:
you said i commit a crime to commit another crime.
See a difference? Prevent vs commit? Dont. put. words. in. my. mouth.

You folks seem to be straying more into gun-control than rape....maybe another thread might be a good idea? :D I'm sure lots of people would like to discuss this, but don't realise it's going on in here....

you said i commit a crime to commit another crime. i am committing a crime in order to commit self defense. my "fecking problem" is that in my state- you cant get a permit.and you little story about stopping the guy fom hitting the women, thats nice, but arent you a guy? if you are, you just dont get what we were talking about.... and why not a taser? have one. but when i was attacked by three guys, it is a good thing i had a gun, or i would be dead
No he dident


You commit a crime in order to prevent another crime.

Sinuhue: Sorry, got carried away.

how do you get the already damaged older population?

Simple answer, you don't. The already damaged older population will eventually die off, leaving behind a considerably less damaged (hopefully) younger generation. If you're going to accept rape as a societal problem (which I believe it is), then I believe that the only way to fix it, permanently, is to concentrate on: a. protecting yourself from the bad elements of the society's already-damaged population (in this case, those who set out to perform violence against women or find themselves in a situation where it is possible to do so and, instead of resisting the temptation, go through with the act) and b. educating and protecting the younger generation from the same elements (peer pressure, familial abuse, out-moded societal mores, etc.) that damaged the older population. This process is in many ways like separating the diseased plants in a food-crop from the healthy ones, thus preventing the spread of the infection.

The projected result of this is that fewer and fewer "infected" individuals will crop up with each generation until, eventually, society as a whole evolves.

It is actually much the same as the issue of slavery. The legal abolition of slavery did nothing to prevent its occurance, much as the rendering of rape and abuse illegal really does nothing to prevent its occurance. However (in America at least) as northern ministers and 'carpetbaggers' came south, they brought with them abolitionist teachings. Over time, they isolated those who believed that slavery was the mandate of the Divine and began teaching the younger generations that it was an abhorrent and evil practice. (Please keep in mind that this statement is a GENERAL historical assessment of the facts. The north was honestly no more friendly to african-americans than the south. The fact remains that the post-Civil War US government was strongly abolitionist and its ideals passed down, often violently, through the people that moved to the south.) Eventually, the older generations died out and the younger generations grew up seeing african-americans not necessarily as equals but at least not as property. Now, occassions of slavery (as a whole, not just that perpetrated against the african-american people) are relatively uncommon throughout the world (with regards to their occurance in the mid-to-late 1800s). The problem has not been completely wiped out (and most likely never will, you cannot purge the infection from every plant in the field) but it is no longer a universal problem. Occurances can be isolated and dealt with more easily.

No means no unless you really mean yes. :fluffle:

According so some statistics shown females are raped more frequently by males and I have thought about this is a sensible way. In fact there is little we can do to protect women from being raped. All we can do is advised walk in groups and under light while staying away from abandoned allies or streets. So in sense, maybe it is possible for this information to spread. This could be one way to solve the problem. For those who keep on assisting that we must focus on men related problems. Well of course I’m not trying to be fighting against you just simply pointing out a point. The second option of this vote states focus on the men for a change. Well in a sense we are. Since most of the men are raping women in rap situations. ^_^''''''

I usually have a great deal of respect for Occidio Multus, but I think she's way off here. She seems to be saying that women who got raped because they weren't armed are a bunch of wimps. I get a general feeling of contempt for women who "allowed" themselves to get raped.
As a past rape victim, I find almost everything she said as rather offensive. I find myself wanting to say things that I shouldn't, as though I need to offend her as much as she has me.
BTW my parents had a lady cop friend who got raped while on duty.

[QUOTE=ye olde town] woman are evil they can catch on to you ehrn u least expect it. never discharge them from a rape case.