NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, someone mentioned it in the american civil war thread. Here it is.

all the Commonwealth contries (Canada, UK, Austraila...) are well with a King and a Parliament.

ENGLISH civil war (Scotland was not involved)

all the Commonwealth contries (Canada, UK, Austraila...) are well with a King and a Parliament.

Yeah, but in the Civil War it was one or the other.

The Roundheads. Unless my American ignorance is kicking in and I'm thinking of a different English war.

all the Commonwealth contries (Canada, UK, Austraila...) are well with a King and a Parliament.

You clearly have no knowledge of the English civil war, go research now or dont post on here.

ENGLISH civil war (Scotland was not involved)
Its called the English Civil War (formally the Revolution) but Scotland was involved. Hell, Charles ran off up to Scotland, he just got handed back.

Its called the English Civil War (formally the Revolution) but Scotland was involved. Hell, Charles ran off up to Scotland, he just got handed back.

I have never heard it called the English revolution. Are you English?

I have never heard it called the English revolution. Are you English?
Yes. It was originally called the English Revolution, but if I remember correctly, it was changed just after the 1st French Revolution because the powers-that-be were concerned that such a name might give the peasants ideas.

Was that the one with Oliver Cromwell?

Was that the one with Oliver Cromwell?
Do you know of any others? :confused:

Yeah. Apperntly he was a very nasty person. And he canceled Christmas for a while!

I would be on his side, anyway. Since he won! :p Yay for Paliment!

Do you know of any others? :confused:
yea there was one back in the 12 or 1300s i think

id be a royalist.....for the simple reason that if they won Cromwell wouldnt have gone and masacred loads of people in Ireland

Neither - King Charles I was a tyrant, and Cromwell was no better, having imposed a dictatorship after deposing Charles.

As I said before I would be with the doomed Levellers, Ranters et al.

(Originally on parliaments side but Cromwell turned on them after the war ended)

Neither - King Charles I was a tyrant, and Cromwell was no better, having imposed a dictatorship after deposing Charles.
There were also proto-libertarians involved but they were anihilated after the end of the Civil War. And you couldn't really know that Cromwell would be a despot standing in a field at the start.

yea there was one back in the 12 or 1300s i think

True, between Stephen and Matilda iirc

There were also proto-libertarians involved but they were anihilated after the end of the Civil War.
Heh, ya gotta love the libertarians who get ahnihilated *joins the proto-libertarians; gets ahnihilated x_x*

Heh, ya gotta love the libertarians who get ahnihilated *joins the proto-libertarians; gets ahnihilated x_x*
If you are interested the publish a kind of manifesto/constitution the Agreement of The People (http://www.strecorsoc.org/docs/agreement.html) which they but in their helmets when they went into battle against the royalists.

Cromwell was a puritan, so naturaly i would be a rolayist.

Death to Charles and all aristrocats, On with the revolution!


Long live Cromwell, Long live the revolution! :gundge:

"The most interesting thing about King Charles I is that he was 5'6" tall at the start of his reign, but only 4'8" tall at the end of it ... because of ...

Oliver Cromwell, Lord Protector of England
Puritan
Born in 1599 and died in 1658
September
Was at first
Only
MP for Huntingdon
But then
He led the Ironside Cavalry at Marston Moor
In 1644 and won
Then he founded the new model army
And praise be, beat the Cavaliers at Naisby
And the King fled up North, like a bat to the Scots.

Spoken: But under the terms of John Pimm's solemn league and covenant, the Scots handed King Charles I over to ...

Oliver Cromwell, Lord Protector of England
And his warts
Born in 1599 and died in 1658
September
But alas
Oy Vay!
Disagreement then broke out
Between
The Presbyterian Parliament
And the Military who meant
To have an independent bent.
And so ...

The 2nd Civil War broke out
And the Roundhead ranks
Faced the Cavaliers at Preston banks
And the King lost again, silly thing
Stupid git

Spoken: And Cromwell sent Colonel Pride to purge the House of Commons of the Presbyterian Royalists, leaving behind only the Rump Parliament ...

Which appointed a High Court at Westminster Hall
To indict Charles I for ... Tyranny
Ooohhh!
Charles was sentenced to death
Even though he refused to accept
That the court had ... Jurisdiction
Say goodbye to his head.

Poor King Charles laid his head on the block
(Spoken) January 1649
Down came the axe, and ...

Spoken: In the silence that followed, the only sound that could be heard was a solitary giggle, from ...

Oliver Cromwell, Lord Protector of England
Ole
Born in 1599 and died in 1658
September
Then he smashed
Ireland
Set up the Commonwealth
And more
He crushed the Scots at Worcester
And beat the Dutch at sea
In 1653 and then
He dissolved the Rump Parliament
And with Lambert's consent
Wrote the instrument of Government
Under which Oliver was Protector at last
The End."

Good ol' Monty:D

Don't know masses about the war, but democracy > dictatorship, parliment > monarchy.

Don't know masses about the war, but democracy > dictatorship, parliment > monarchy.
Errrr...Democracy?
I think you mean, Monarchy > parliament > Constitutional monarchy

True, between Stephen and Matilda iirc


Don't forget the War of the Roses! I'd call that a civil war!

mmm...possibly

3 civil wars?

Well, even whats generally known as the Civil War was actually 2 Civil Wars...so maybe 4?

(Wow, we did alot of fighting ourselves didn't we?!)

I'm an American so the only things I know of the English Civil War come from the couple of day spent on it last year in my Wester Civ class and the week-long unit we did earlier this year in AP European History. I would definintely fought on the Parliament's side.

I would have made my own faction and won the war in two days with an army of battle-hardened cyborgs from the future!

I'd've probably fought for Cromwell, just because Charles was such a c*ck.

Cromwell actually seems to be doing well!
Hoorah for Cromwell! :D

Yeah. Apperntly he was a very nasty person. And he canceled Christmas for a while!

Incorrect: it was the parliament that served under his Protectorate that 'banned' Christmas. Meanwhile at the same time they instituted a monthly holiday for servants, apprentices and the like. They may have snubbed the supporters of the arbitrarily chosen date to celebrate the birth of Jesus, but they replaced it with _more_ holidays in the year which were of a much more egalitarian nature.

Incorrect: it was the parliament that served under his Protectorate that 'banned' Christmas. Meanwhile at the same time they instituted a monthly holiday for servants, apprentices and the like. They may have snubbed the supporters of the arbitrarily chosen date to celebrate the birth of Jesus, but they replaced it with _more_ holidays in the year which were of a much more egalitarian nature.
Hooray for parliament.
Hooray for Cromwell, Lord Protector of England!

Cromwell actually seems to be doing well!
Hoorah for Cromwell! :D

Shall we just gloss over Drogheda?

Shall we just gloss over Drogheda?
Yes...let's. ;)

i tried bringing it up earlier...but noone listened to me :(

Other. Definitely other.

In 1649, to St George's Hill...

I'm for Parliament over Monarchy, even now. Considering they're thinking of making 18 year olds swear allegiance to the Queen, issues like this will be coming back. As someone very astute once said 'Every argument in England in the last 300 years is just a re-run of the Civil War'.

Other. Definitely other.

In 1649, to St George's Hill...
Well they did support parliament for a bit didn't they iirc

Well, even whats generally known as the Civil War was actually 2 Civil Wars...so maybe 4?

(Wow, we did alot of fighting ourselves didn't we?!)
Well we got it out of our system. So that by the 19th Century we just had a really big petition.

Other. Definitely other.

In 1649, to St George's Hill...


I love Billy Braggs cover...

"A ragged band called the Diggers
Came to show the people's will,
they defied the landlords, they defied the law,
the were the dispossessed reclaiming what was theres..."

Still today we have these problems, the people of Britain have been continually fucked over in the last 400 years thanks to monarchist lies, the enclosures and theft of our common land and today we're still made to feel subservient to a family of racist scroungers living in luxury whilst 30% of British children live below the poverty line. 1997 should have marked the dawn of Britain for the British, not for the Establishment, but instead our 'men' in the Labour Party have seen the riches of Establishment life and instead of handing them down to us all, have simply fitted themselves neatly in. I'll never swear allegiance to the Queen.

yea there was one back in the 12 or 1300s i think


The Peasents' Revolt led by Wat Tyler (who, surprise, surprise was betrayed by the crown) in 1381?

i tried bringing it up earlier...but noone listened to me

So you did. Funny how the name 'Cromwell' is seen as a progressive force in England, but is pretty much synonymous with the Devil himself in Eire.

The Peasents' Revolt led by Wat Tyler (who, surprise, surprise was betrayed by the crown) in 1381?
.
no, that was just a revolt, someone else has said Stephen and Matilda(who?) had themselves a civil war


So you did. Funny how the name 'Cromwell' is seen as a progressive force in England, but is pretty much synonymous with the Devil himself in Eire

yea, thats the one reason i would have supported Charles, Cromwell was a murdering bastard...although its easy to say with hindsight i suppose

I love Billy Braggs cover...

Personally I currently prefer Dick Gaughan's version (if you aren't familiar with him, track him down - he wrote the original version of Think Again that Bragg later covered.)

Still today we have these problems, the people of Britain have been continually fucked over in the last 400 years thanks to monarchist lies, the enclosures and theft of our common land and today we're still made to feel subservient to a family of racist scroungers living in luxury whilst 30% of British children live below the poverty line. 1997 should have marked the dawn of Britain for the British, not for the Establishment, but instead our 'men' in the Labour Party have seen the riches of Establishment life and instead of handing them down to us all, have simply fitted themselves neatly in. I'll never swear allegiance to the Queen.

I'm not too keen on this 'Britain for the British', I have to say, and I also have to admit that I still consider it a pity that John Smith copped a heart attack instead of leading Labour into an election. I have no great respect for Labour, New or Old, but he at least seemed to have an integrity lacking in Blair.

Shall we just gloss over Drogheda?
But at the time, Drogheda was not seen as an atrocity by any of the British (not just English) as it was seen to be retribution for the slaughter of Protestant priests in the Irish Uprising in 1641, though it is of course not viewed the same in Ireland.

no, that was just a revolt, someone else has said Stephen and Matilda(who?) had themselves a civil war

I suppose the Wars of the Roses could also be considered as another 'english civil war', but it seems here that the actual ECW marks itself separate as it was not just the clash of different claims to Divine Right, but rather an attempt to kick over the whole system.

I love Billy Braggs cover...

"A ragged band called the Diggers
Came to show the people's will,
they defied the landlords, they defied the law,
the were the dispossessed reclaiming what was theres..."

As much as I love B. Bragg, I do prefer Attila the Stockbrokers cover.

no, that was just a revolt, someone else has said Stephen and Matilda(who?) had themselves a civil war

Just a revolt? The did manage to get inside and cause (selective) havoc in one of the most fortified cities in Europe at the time.

On the bright side, it side leave us with some inspiring words, namely:

Whanne Adam dalf and Eve span,
Wo was thanne a Gentilman?

yea, thats the one reason i would have supported Charles, Cromwell was a murdering bastard...although its easy to say with hindsight i suppose

Note: Cromwell only really turned into a murdering bastard once he assumed the role of virtual Monarch. If power had been retained as a Republic in the Parliament then it's less likely to have happened. And the actions of Cromwell are dwarfed by the last 1000 years of rape, torture, murder, religious persecution and oppression meted out on the British people by their 'Kings' and 'Queens'.

As much as I love B. Bragg, I do prefer Attila the Stockbrokers cover.



Just a revolt? The did manage to get inside and cause (selective) havoc in one of the most fortified cities in Europe at the time.

On the bright side, it side leave us with some inspiring words, namely:

Whanne Adam dalf and Eve span,
Wo was thanne a Gentilman?
yea but it was never a full blown civil war

pretty cool though, would have been great if Edward (wasnt that the king at the time?) hadnt been a cheating bastard

yea but it was never a full blown civil war

pretty cool though, would have been great if Edward (wasnt that the king at the time?) hadnt been a cheating bastard
I thought it was Richard II, or am I thinking of a different revolt?

As much as I love B. Bragg, I do prefer Attila the Stockbrokers cover.

While wearing my 'sound engineer' hat, I recorded an LP for him.

Whanne Adam dalf and Eve span,
Wo was thanne a Gentilman?

None of the above.

John Ball, wasn't it?

While wearing my 'sound engineer' hat, I recorded an LP for him.
Billy Bragg or Attilla the Stockbroker? And am I right in thinking Attilla had some relationship with Alexie Sayle?

someone else has said Stephen and Matilda(who?) had themselves a civil war



Given the nature of the thread this (http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page56.asp) seems an appropriate source for a bit of background (although hardly conclusive but I cannot seem to find anything more detail)

I thought it was Richard II, or am I thinking of a different revolt?
whoever he was he was a kid

come to think of it...might have been a Richard. Bodies Without Organs probably knows

Billy Bragg or Attilla the Stockbroker?

Attila.

And am I right in thinking Attilla had some relationship with Alexie Sayle?

Not that I know of, but seeing as how they are both leftist ranting poets that emerged in the wake of John Cooper-Clark in the late-seventies/early-eighties, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if they had at least done a couple of gigs together.

Attila.



bollocks. I think you know how much I worship Billy. I even dreamt I met him in a gay bar in Rome, beneath the colloseum. I have no idea how that came about.

whoever he was he was a kid

come to think of it...might have been a Richard. Bodies Without Organs probably knows

Wikipedia gives us this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anarchy

I readily admit that my knowledge of English history prior to the War of The Roses is shaky at best (but generally non-existent).

Given the nature of the thread this (http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page56.asp) seems an appropriate source for a bit of background (although hardly conclusive but I cannot seem to find anything more detail)
interesting, thanks

i find it "amusing" that Drogheda is described as a "convincing military success" on that website

yea but it was never a full blown civil war

pretty cool though, would have been great if Edward (wasnt that the king at the time?) hadnt been a cheating bastard
L-Rouge is right, it was Richard II.

(Really I should have thought of the 1381 revolt sooner seeing how that has been my best module, and one that I have continued to be interested in.)

However there were revolts all over the country, including as far up as North. Whilst I don't feel like going into it now. It was fairly big with the 'peasants' (the ones involved in the march on London at any rate) organising themselves to a degree that shocked contempories.

Whether they all had a common purpose is doubtful though, and depends on what you mean by civil war.

John Ball, wasn't it?

Yes, Part of his sermon at Blackheath.

I've also liked:

Iohan the Mullere hath ygrounde smal, smal, smal,
The Kynges son of heuene schal paye for al.

FRom his Letter to the Essex commoners, despite the religious overtones. :D

bollocks. I think you know how much I worship Billy.

I remember our 'The Clash & The Stones were his major influence'/'No, he said on Radio 4 that it was Spandau Ballet' debate quite well.

I even dreamt I met him in a gay bar in Rome, beneath the colloseum. I have no idea how that came about.

[Airplane!]Do you like gladiator movies?[/Airplane!]

Attila.
.
My mistake.

i find it "amusing" that Drogheda is described as a "convincing military success" on that website

Well what can you do. One side of my family is Irish, so I hardly think it nessasery to say how I feel about it.

interesting, thanks

i find it "amusing" that Drogheda is described as a "convincing military success" on that website
Well, from Cromwells positions (and that of Parliament) it was a success. The loss of life, however, was truely horrendous (sp?) but placed into its historical perspective, it was the beginning of the end of the Irish and Royalist attacks on Parliament.

My mistake.

Actually, it appears to be 'Attila'.

I remember our 'The Clash & The Stones were his major influence'/'No, he said on Radio 4 that it was Spandau Ballet' debate quite well.




I said influence, not inspiration. He was so influenced by the terrible quality of British pop that he thought something MUST be done, and therefore became a pop star himself. The Clash were undoubtably his biggest INSPIRATION. I can feel my blood boiling already...

I said influence, not inspiration. He was so influenced by the terrible quality of British pop that he thought something MUST be done, and therefore became a pop star himself. The Clash were undoubtably his biggest INSPIRATION. I can feel my blood boiling already...

I didn't get where I am today by not misrepresenting the other guy's argument at every opportunity... 'pologies.

Well, from Cromwells positions (and that of Parliament) it was a success. The loss of life, however, was truely horrendous (sp?) but placed into its historical perspective, it was the beginning of the end of the Irish and Royalist attacks on Parliament.


Hardly the 'beginning of the end' of Irish attacks on Parliament: 350 years on, and the best we have managed is a 'peacefire'.

Hardly the 'beginning of the end' of Irish attacks on Parliament: 350 years on, and the best we have managed is a 'peacefire'.
Granted, but within the confines of the 'Cromwellian era' it was.

Granted, but within the confines of the 'Cromwellian era' it was.

As far as I know, you are correct in this, but it has remained very much a bone of contention and a spur for further anti-British/English sentiment amongst the Irish.

Actually, it appears to be 'Attila'.
:confused:

:confused:

Alcohol & bad lighting... I thought you were apologising for mis-spelling his name, and were accepting my spelling as correct, whereas it appeared to me that I had actually mis-spelled it in the one you seemed to be accepting, whereas I was actually looking at an earlier mis-spelling of mine... some things just aren't worth the candle.

I'm now completely confused: why did you say 'my mistake'?

Alcohol & bad lighting.

Always a fun, if not always for you, combination.

ENGLISH civil war (Scotland was not involved)

I think you will find it was considering Scotland really started the chain of events with its religious Covenant against the non-Presbetryian prayer book.

Just out of interest, I voted for king. Charles was a hedonist who liked enjoyment of life and general merriment. Cromwell was an authoritarian puritain, to whom "enjoyment" must have practically seemed a dirty word.

I voted for Parliament for one very important reason: I live in Plymouth and I'd have been lynched otherwise; however if I had left the city I'd have been lynched for not supporting the King. *rolls eyes* I couldn't have won!

Although I also voted for Parliament since it was their success in the Civil war[s]/revolution that paved the way for modern contemporary Britain, with Constitutional monarchy and Parliament. :)

Do you know of any others? :confused:

Yes several (not including the 3 civil wars that make up the English civil war). You also have the war between Stephen and Matilda in the 1130's and 40's plus the Wars of the Roses 1455-1485 (1487 if you include the battle of Stoke)