NationStates Jolt Archive

What I'm asking is not whether you think we will end up with a cashless society, but whether you would WANT to end up with a cashless society. Basically, something along the lines where everyone has a card they 'top up' with money from their bank via the internet and a USB device, or something like that, meaning coins and notes are a thing of the past. E-money. Good or bad?

Nope. I like cash. :D
I'm all for keeping both. I don't want to walk around with huge amounts of cash in my pockets to pay for, say, a car, but not having any money at all ...I don't know..I don't like that idea. Besides, what would all the poor beggars and street-musicians do??

interest is evil and impossible to pay off. There would be no checks since checks aren't electronic or plastic

Cash or your a communist

But then how would the politicians get under the table cold hard cash?

electronic credits leave trails.

I'd welcome it, it seems so much simpler. Maybe not as secure, but there are always ways to make it more secure.

What would we do at strip clubs to show appreciation? Well, I guess we could swipe...

I am all about efficiency, but I don't see this happening really anywhere anytime soon. Alinania's point about the beggars was a very good one, I thought.

PS, Jibea, what's so terrible about being a communist?

I would go for the e-money. It works basically how money works now, there's just no cash. You get paid, it gets directly depositied to the bank, you put it on a card in the form of 'credts' and spend it like cash. Simple, no mess, no worries about leaving money in your pockets (then again, no more suprise when you find a $10 bill)

Cash is still better, plus it's good to have something solid or physical. Plus, there's going to be lots of more security hacking headache problems being cashless.

Lol.. Beggars with card-swipers. :p

Does anyone know, that if money is suddenly cashless.. Would it effect the rate of exchange of the dollar? How are we going to monitor it? And control the inflow outflow of currency? Unless we all use one type of money.

Cash is still better, plus it's good to have something solid or physical. Plus, there's going to be lots of more security hacking headache problems being cashless.

Lol.. Beggars with card-swipers. :p

Does anyone know, that if money is suddenly cashless.. Would it effect the rate of exchange of the dollar? How are we going to monitor it? And control the inflow outflow of currency? Unless we all use one type of money.

Same way we do now. everything is electronic. The only actual cash that we see is what we take out of the bank, otherwise, it works like the stock market or the credit card. All currency gets traded electronically.

I already am cashless, using my debit card to pay for anything. But I still like to draw out big bundles of notes and plant my face in them from time to time...

Cash is still better, plus it's good to have something solid or physical. Plus, there's going to be lots of more security hacking headache problems being cashless.

Lol.. Beggars with card-swipers. :p

Does anyone know, that if money is suddenly cashless.. Would it effect the rate of exchange of the dollar? How are we going to monitor it? And control the inflow outflow of currency? Unless we all use one type of money.
Nothing would change with the exchange rates, since it's still the 'same' money. Besides, we already are halfway to not having any cash money.

I like the card-swiping-beggar idea :D

Exhange rate has nothing to do with physical money. Since the gold standard is long gone there is no real impediment as far as that is concerned. Besides, a cashless society wouldn't be all that different from this one. We can basically go without touching money in all but a few circumstances. I guess bank robberies would be pretty weird at first, but criminals adapt pretty quickly, I'm not worried about them.

It wouldn't bother me either way. And if it would make it harder to bribe people as someone suggested, it would be great to go cashless.

With proper encryption and other security devices, it would be extremely safe for everyone. You could easily transfer money in minutes. Another thing to have though, is a prepaid card. For college students, they could receive a card with some money on it that is replenished from the parent's account every month.

I should establish this in my nation...but with the civil war...yeah

What would we do at strip clubs to show appreciation? Well, I guess we could swipe...

Lol :p

Personally i'm not too bothered but i prefer the versatility of a combined system,.

Nothing would change with the exchange rates, since it's still the 'same' money. Besides, we already are halfway to not having any cash money.

Hmm. Okay. I was rather curious why sometimes you have to declare the ammount of cash if your bringing it out of the country. Now it appealed to me that it is mostly for money laundering.. Not really changing the exchange rate. :p

A cashless society would probably ruin privacy. Someone with the right equipment could see everything you ever bought. It would put an end to shady deals, whether you consider that good or bad.

Cash makes things a lot easier, so I hope we never go without some form of cash. We don't necessarily need it to be a physical thing we can touch--it could work as some form of electronic credits we hear about in Sci-fi stories.

But I seriously doubt we'll get rid of "money".

Cash makes things a lot easier, so I hope we never go without some form of cash. We don't necessarily need it to be a physical thing we can touch--it could work as some form of electronic credits we hear about in Sci-fi stories.

But I seriously doubt we'll get rid of "money".

It's called a credit card. :rolleyes:

I hate cash. I only use cash when the place I'm at doesn't accept credit.

It's called a credit card. :rolleyes:

I hate cash. I only use cash when the place I'm at doesn't accept credit.
yeah. But that's America. That's not the way it is in most parts of the world.

What I'm asking is not whether you think we will end up with a cashless society, but whether you would WANT to end up with a cashless society. Basically, something along the lines where everyone has a card they 'top up' with money from their bank via the internet and a USB device, or something like that, meaning coins and notes are a thing of the past. E-money. Good or bad?

Horrid! What about people who can't afford the interest on "plastic?" :(

cash is good to have, but having a cashless society would be Great for the global society, but america would suffer, so for now it would be bad for the people that would be able to actually be able to go to a cashless society

O.o power cut...

get there early looting is first come first serve!

Google ("John Law" +Bubbles) or ("John Law" +Mississippi) to get an idea of what I think of this.

Or pay the exhorbant fees and wait a week or so to actually purchase "Popular Delusions and the Madness of Krauts (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/051788433X/qid=1106693742/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-4580881-4855063?v=glance&s=books)," so that you may hold in your hands about 5 lbs of documented evidence as to why this is a bad idea.


Inside a MMORPG, as there is infinite wealth (different from money- infinite amount of valuables) which is entering the economy at an increasing rate, this could work. In the real world, while there's only so much gold, oil, and confidence in America's power to back up money, it'd screw us over in a decade or so.

I really don't care. Money is money whether it has a physical form or not.

The problem is that everybody would have to have such a card. It could be used to trace people's movements and locate illegal immigrants.

Beggars/strippers would not be a difficulty. The cards could communicate wirelessly on an ad-hoc network.

yeah. But that's America. That's not the way it is in most parts of the world.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

What I'm pointing out is these people seem to think this is some sci-fi thing. Just get a damn credit/debit card and there ya go. Cashless society.

Not having cash would help reduce crime.

Horrid! What about people who can't afford the interest on "plastic?" :(

You don't pay interest on credit cards unless you carry a balance. You spend $16,000 with your card but you pay it all off before the end of the month, no interest.

You spend $16,000 on your card and you make the minimum payment, say $250, you're now carrying a good sized debt with an insane interest rate (lets say 30%). Now you're screwed. Everyone can use a credit card wisely, a lot of people don't and frankly, they're idiots.

The system this thread has in mind is a debt card based system. And I say hell no. I value my privacy and would rather prefer to be able to buy things discretely and without a trail at times. Never mind that people always take cash and the government can’t shut down the cash you’re carrying on your person even if they can freeze all your assets and lines of credit. Do I personally have anything to worry about? Not really, but then who hear has ever heard of a corruption free government?

Not to even mention new methods of stealing peoples money wirelessly and all sorts of nasty computer hacking methods. Personally I'd like my assests to be more than 1s and 0s on a harddrive somewhere. Even if it is just paper instead.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

What I'm pointing out is these people seem to think this is some sci-fi thing. Just get a damn credit/debit card and there ya go. Cashless society.

Not having cash would help reduce crime.

Riiighhhtt and people don't steal credit card numbers... oh wait, an entire new kind of criminal sprang into existence when we came up with credit cards.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

What I'm pointing out is these people seem to think this is some sci-fi thing. Just get a damn credit/debit card and there ya go. Cashless society.

Not having cash would help reduce crime.
Yes, but not every country is let's say equipped for that. I'll agree that in most of the western countries you can go to most places and pay with either visa or mastercard. But imagine going to Northeastern Thailand...your card may shine in the prettiest of colors, but you can't even buy rice with it.
edit: of course it would help reduce crime - any crime involving stealing cash :p

A cashless society would probably ruin privacy. Someone with the right equipment could see everything you ever bought. It would put an end to shady deals, whether you consider that good or bad.
Never underemstimate criminals, there might be a period of a week or so where that is true, but that would be about it.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

What I'm pointing out is these people seem to think this is some sci-fi thing. Just get a damn credit/debit card and there ya go. Cashless society.

Not having cash would help reduce crime.

Today's credit card isn't necessarily the Sci-fi system I was referring to. Well, most of them don't go too far into the economic systems very well, so maybe it is.

I know in the stories when paying with your card it wasn't a 'buy-now-pay-later" type of thing like a credit card is.

And it wasn't the debit system either where it takes it out of a checking or savings account.

Maybe once I find a book that does a good job with explaining the economic systems, I can describe it more.

Yes, but not every country is let's say equipped for that. I'll agree that in most of the western countries you can go to most places and pay with either visa or mastercard. But imagine going to Northeastern Thailand...your card may shine in the prettiest of colors, but you can't even buy rice with it.

Yes but that has nothing to do with the question. The question is should we GO TO a cashless society. It doesn't matter that some 3rd world country doesn't have credit cards. They SHOULD. Everyone should. IMO. I know that it may be hard for poor countries to do that, but that wasn't the point.

Today's credit card isn't necessarily the Sci-fi system I was referring to. Well, most of them don't go too far into the economic systems very well, so maybe it is.

I know in the stories when paying with your card it wasn't a 'buy-now-pay-later" type of thing like a credit card is.

And it wasn't the debit system either where it takes it out of a checking or savings account.

Maybe once I find a book that does a good job with explaining the economic systems, I can describe it more.

What the hell else is there? You either pay now (debit) or pay later(credit). And if you are talking about a card where you put money on the card itself (as in not taking out of your bank account, just the card) then they already have those also. They are still considered debit cards (Or gift cards....).

Yes but that has nothing to do with the question. The question is should we GO TO a cashless society. It doesn't matter that some 3rd world country doesn't have credit cards. They SHOULD. Everyone should. IMO. I know that it may be hard for poor countries to do that, but that wasn't the point.
Nah, that wasn't the question. What I'm asking is not whether you think we will end up with a cashless society, but whether you would WANT to end up with a cashless society.
By 'we' I understood the whole world,but of course you could also say it's just for the 'western' world.

Nah, that wasn't the question.
By 'we' I understood the whole world,but of course you could also say it's just for the 'western' world.

Saying "would you WANT to go to a cashless society" is basically the same as asking "should we GO TO a cashless society".

What the hell else is there? You either pay now (debit) or pay later(credit). And if you are talking about a card where you put money on the card itself (as in not taking out of your bank account, just the card) then they already have those also. They are still considered debit cards (Or gift cards....).
Yes, that's what he's saying, except that there wouldn't be an alternative. Well, there could be credit cards, I guess.

sry, no cash is a good idea but not happening any time soon. its like this cool bio guy killing himself :gundge: hehehehehe.

Yes, that's what he's saying, except that there wouldn't be an alternative. Well, there could be credit cards, I guess.

But why? Credit/debit cards are fine the way they are. There is nothing better you can get, except for maybe slightly better security. The only real alternative is some figerprint/eyescan type thing where you don't even need a card. Then you just pick credit/debit. I would go for that.

You don't pay interest on credit cards unless you carry a balance. You spend $16,000 with your card but you pay it all off before the end of the month, no interest.

You spend $16,000 on your card and you make the minimum payment, say $250, you're now carrying a good sized debt with an insane interest rate (lets say 30%). Now you're screwed. Everyone can use a credit card wisely, a lot of people don't and frankly, they're idiots.

LOL! You've obviously never been behind the "cash flow 8-ball!"

LOL! You've obviously never been behind the "cash flow 8-ball!"

Doesn't matter if I have or I haven't. Anyone who voluntarily puts themselves in a good sized debt when they know the interest rate will be insane is an idiot. Period. In my mind it is better to miss your rent/gas bill/electricity bill/cable bill whatever than to have a debt building daily that you can't pay off.

But why? Credit/debit cards are fine the way they are. There is nothing better you can get, except for maybe slightly better security. The only real alternative is some figerprint/eyescan type thing where you don't even need a card. Then you just pick credit/debit. I would go for that.
Yes, they are fine the way they are. He wants to get rid of paper and metal currency and keep the credit/debit cards.

Getting rid of cash? Sure make my wallet lighter. I like that.

As for everything else? Getting rid of cash would be a very bad idea. At least cash can be physically counted.

Diamonds, gold and other precious metals would quickly become the currency of the lower criminal underworld.

Money laundering of cash is much more harder than that of eletronic money. ie You actually have to print the money off rather than neatly adding a zero on to the end of the account balance.

Being able to trace money transfers? Accounts would be much easier to set up, money would be filtered through several accounts with the amount of money running through each account being tiny.

Credit Card Fraud. This is rocketing out of control and is over £400,000,000 per year in the UK. Whereas there are less than 150,000,000 fake pounds in circulation with about 27,000,000 of fake pounds being taking out of circulation each year by police and discovery by the public. Nuff said.

Finally, encryption, that's an awful lot of power to give to the people know the algoritms being used to encrypt the infomation.

We have computers to try and make our lives easier. Making money purely electronic would make life easier for the criminal than the law abiding citizen.

Finally, encryption, that's an awful lot of power to give to the people know the algoritms being used to encrypt the infomation.
People don't use encryption that they know how to break. It's completely idiotic.

People don't use encryption that they know how to break. It's completely idiotic.Yes they do. The computer at the other end needs to know how to decrypt the infomation.

Everything that can be done, can be undone. What goes up must come down. yada yada yada

except boiling an egg.

Yes they do. The computer at the other end needs to know how to decrypt the infomation.

Everything that can be done, can be undone. What goes up must come down. yada yada yada

except boiling an egg.

So then if someone breaks the code, they know who to go to first. :)

Yes they do. The computer at the other end needs to know how to decrypt the infomation.

Everything that can be done, can be undone. What goes up must come down. yada yada yada

except boiling an egg.
That requires a key. Keys can be generated spontaneously and securely across open channels using Diffie-Hellman.

Trust me. People don't use encryption that they can break. I've worked as a cryptologist for the US Department of Defense.

That requires a key. Keys can be generated spontaneously and securely across open channels using Diffy-Hellman.

Trust me. People don't use encryption that they can break. I've worked as a cryptologist for the US Department of Defense.
That's what everyone thought about the Enigma. It worked great until people discovered how the keys were generated. If someone is determined to break something then it is nigh on impossible to stop them.

You say you can send the key over secure channel. If that channel is so secure why not send all the infomation across it?

EDIT: It's like if I want to stop someone I getting into my house then I can lock the door. But, I can put as many locks on my door as I want, but if someone really wanted to get in then all they'd have to do is smash my window.

That's what everyone thought about the Enigma. It worked great until people discovered how the keys were generated. If someone is determined to break something then it is nigh on impossible to stop them.

You say you can send the key over secure channel. If that channel is so secure why not send all the infomation across it?
No, the key can be generated on an open channel. Then, you use an encryption scheme with that key.

You're not seriously arguing this with me, are you?

Yes I am.

At one point you must transmit some infomation that can picked up on or have a predefined key. All you need is for one person on the inside to bribed and say how keys are generated and which algorithmn is used.

Yes I am.

At one point you must transmit some infomation that can picked up on or have a predefined key. All you need is for one person on the inside to bribed and say how keys are generated and which algorithmn is used.
That's the beauty of Diffie-Hellman. Person A and person B both think of a number. They do something to it and tell each other their results. From this information, person A and person B can come up with a common number. However, with only those two results, nobody else can. As long as nobody finds out the number either of them are thinking of, the key is safe*, even if the person knows what they're doing with the numbers. Of course, if somebody could find out those numbers, then not even a one-time pad (provably unbreakable crypto system) will help them.

*: Nothing is 100% safe. However, something can be safe enough that the information won't matter by the time that it can be uncovered. That's the real goal of cryptography.

Its the dream of the NWO to control all the money through means like that...

So, both A and B do the same operation to a random number and swap answers? From this they deduce what number the other person used? Or am I wrong here?

Anyway, I need sleep. Early start tomorrow x_x
Will catch up with this later.

So, both A and B do the same operation to a random number and swap answers? From this they deduce what number the other person used? Or am I wrong here?
No, they come up with a third number.