NationStates Jolt Archive

Faith, i hear it used all the time.

But i cant see it as being anything more than people believing something purely because they want it to be true.

Is faith:

a) believing something to be true because you want it to be true

or

b) something else (please define)

If it is the former then i do not understand how people can stand by it, "i want this to be true therefore it is" just doesnt work for me. In fact i find it extremely childish and obnoxious. So for the sake of all those people who base their view of reality on faith will someone please correct me.

Thanks

I think the best definition for "faith" is :


Belief without regard to evidence.

I think the best definition for "faith" is :


Belief without regard to evidence.
Yeah, there's a really good one in the Bible itself, but I can't seem to find it right now.

Hebrews 11: 1

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen

Faith is a woman that lives down the street.

Faith is the teleological suspension of the ethical.

Hebrews 11: 1

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen

The "substance of things hoped for" sounds like the same thing as "believing something to be true because you want it to be true", only with more poetic wording.

The "evidence of things not seen" is just saying that faith somehow proves god's existence, but still doesn't explain what it is.

Faith is a woman that lives down the street.
Holy Grace is too, although it's Holly, not holy. I bet Holly is so pissed how they wrote her into a book, but misspelled her name.

Faith, i hear it used all the time.

But i cant see it as being anything more than people believing something purely because they want it to be true.

Is faith:

a) believing something to be true because you want it to be true



I was actually thinking of suggesting that before I opened the thread.

Faith, i hear it used all the time.

But i cant see it as being anything more than people believing something purely because they want it to be true.

Is faith:

a) believing something to be true because you want it to be true

or

b) something else (please define)

If it is the former then i do not understand how people can stand by it, "i want this to be true therefore it is" just doesnt work for me. In fact i find it extremely childish and obnoxious. So for the sake of all those people who base their view of reality on faith will someone please correct me.

Thanks

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

-William Shakespeare

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Cheers Will S. but care to explain?

That just sounds to me like "you don't know everything", a fact which I am well aware of.

Faith, i hear it used all the time.

But i cant see it as being anything more than people believing something purely because they want it to be true.

Is faith:

a) believing something to be true because you want it to be true

or

b) something else (please define)

If it is the former then i do not understand how people can stand by it, "i want this to be true therefore it is" just doesnt work for me. In fact i find it extremely childish and obnoxious. So for the sake of all those people who base their view of reality on faith will someone please correct me.

Thanks

I don't base my view of reality on faith, but I do understand it a bit, having been there, done that for a number of years.

"... Faith is the assurance ( the confirmation, the title deed ) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses]."

So the fact that someone has faith is confirmation that what is believed is true. "Faith is a gift from God, lest any man should boast."

"So also faith, if it does not have works ( deeds and actions of obedience to back it up ), by itself is destitute of power ( inoperative, dead ). But someone will say [to you then, 'You [say you] have faith, and I have [good] works. Now you show me your [alleged] faith apart from any [good] works [if you can], and I by [good] works [of obedience] will show you my faith.'"

So the evidence of true faith is good works: "By their works will you know them."

This is the most compete definition of faith I have found in the Bible. It's not easy for a totally rational, Western mind to understand fully, but at least it may give you a bit of insight into how faith is interwoven with other aspects of Christianity.

Thanks for the reply Eutrusca, that was very helpful.

So the fact that someone has faith is confirmation that what is believed is true. "Faith is a gift from God, lest any man should boast."

Im still having a bit of trouble gettin my head round certain bits though, such as above, to me this just seems like a circular argument: i believe this and have faith (a feeling of conformation of my belief) thus what i believe is true.

It in no way takes into account anything external, such as what we experience, it would therefore be possible to come up with any belief and justify it to ourselves with faith, as it would be impossible for an individual to know the difference between a Faith which is a gift from God or a faith which is produced internally.

Faith is an opinion used to answer a question that cannot be answered with proof.

For instance, I cannot prove there is a God. I also can't prove there isn't. Therefor, I take what evidence I have and form a hypothosis, and since that hypotosis cannot be proven, the answer to the question is elusive and I have to accept the answer on faith unless other evidence is brought forth. Since a final answer is not given, then it will never be concluded until it is.

Faith is more than just saying that you want something to be true, its knowing something is true whether it is or not. You can want something to not be true but if you have faith in it you can't disprove it to yourself.

Faith also probably has to do with endorphins (anyone read the "god gene" article in TIME a while ago?).

To examine faith, we must first examine the definition of the word evidence.

Evidence:
1. A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment.
2. Something indicative; an outward sign.
3. The documentary or oral statements and the material objects admissible as testimony in a court of law.

Evidence comes in many forms, not necessarily tangible. You can see evidence of pain on a person's face, but can you be sure that the person is, or is not, in pain?

There is concrete evidence, of course, which is evidence that anyone viewing would draw the same conclusions beyond a shadow of reasonable doubt in the legal sense. For example, DNA evidence linking a person to a crime scene.

However, there is also philosophical evidence. Psychology is in no way a science, but its philosophies and ideaologies concerning the human mind is considered evidence good enough for both courts of law and peer reviewed journals.

Like psychology, faith does not necessarily rely on empirical evidence, but more on instinctive evidence and personal experience.

Faith is just as valid as science.

Thanks for the reply Eutrusca, that was very helpful.

Im still having a bit of trouble gettin my head round certain bits though, such as above, to me this just seems like a circular argument: i believe this and have faith (a feeling of conformation of my belief) thus what i believe is true.

It in no way takes into account anything external, such as what we experience, it would therefore be possible to come up with any belief and justify it to ourselves with faith, as it would be impossible for an individual to know the difference between a Faith which is a gift from God or a faith which is produced internally.

I suspect you're confusing belief with faith. They're two separate things.

Faith is as was stated earlier: the title deed for what is believed.

Belief is in the mind of the believer. One who believes chooses to do so using the tools available to him/her: mind, emotions, evidence, logic, reason, etc. The faith that God gives then becomes the proof that what is believed is true.

Faith is far more than belief. The Bible says that "if you have the faith of a grain of mustard seed ( one of the smallest seeds ), you can say unto this mountain 'Be removed and cast into the sea,' and it will be done." This falls under the category of "works."

So we have a kind of continum:

Believe with the mind and heart > recieve faith > exhibit good works and miracles.

This is probably one of the primary reasons the Bible states, "Strait is the way and narrow is the gate and few there be who find it."

Psychology is a science though.

It studies an event: a persons thoughts
It examins trends and looks for patterns in the event to create a model: a psychological profile
It uses the model to make predictions: how the individual will think/act in different situations
It will change the model to better represent the situation when new data is found.

True these predictions are no where near as accurate as many other fields of science but that is because we do not yet understand the full workings of the human mind and there are a huge number of factors to consider, it is still however based in the same league as the other sciences, using scientific methods to come to conclusions. It is not based on intuition nor personal experience, as you say faith is.

Took a look at the God Gene article online and it makes a lot of sense i feel, all of our feelings are related to chemical levels in our body why not faith as well.

Eutrusca, i still dont see how you can tell the difference between belief and faith, for cannot even someone with false faith exhibit good works? and miracles are few and far between these days.

Anyone know what Faith is?
A character from Buffy the vampire slayer. Played by Eliza Dushku.

Eutrusca, i still dont see how you can tell the difference between belief and faith, for cannot even someone with false faith exhibit good works? and miracles are few and far between these days.

Indeed. I have seen many of NO faith perform good works. And miracles do indeed seem to be few and far between. This is one of the many, many reasons I no longer consider myself to be a Christian in the current understanding of the term, and why I don't have "a religion" per se.

However, the Bible, on which I was basing my earlier posts in this thread, is rather uniquivocal on this point. "By their works shall you know them." "And greater works than these [that Jesus has performed] shall you do." The notable absence of good works, particularly miracles, indicates there is a serious lack of faith.

Psychology is a science though.

It studies an event: a persons thoughts
It examins trends and looks for patterns in the event to create a model: a psychological profile
It uses the model to make predictions: how the individual will think/act in different situations
It will change the model to better represent the situation when new data is found.


The trouble is, humans cannot be quantified. Every hypothesis in psychology is easily disproven. Psychology says that all crows are black, regardless of whether or not one has seen all crows, and concludes that the reason my shirt is not a crow is because it's green.

It's philosophical and interesting, but if a shift in culture alters your data, you can't call it scientific data. 1+1=2 regardless of culture.

Faith is a fancy way of saying 'it feels true and so it must be'. The common use of faith according to my observations is to circumvent logical objections that cannot be countered using logical reasoning.

Faith is a fancy way of saying 'it feels true and so it must be'. The common use of faith according to my observations is to circumvent logical objections that cannot be countered using logical reasoning.

I strongly disagree. Please see my first post on this subject at ...

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=392019&page=1&pp=15

I strongly disagree. Please see my first post on this subject at ...

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=392019&page=1&pp=15
I've already seen it, it offers no sound argument contrary to my assertions.

Faith is fidelity to a spiritual concept, which includes unquestioned trust and unwavering loyalty.

Faith = Axioms

Faith = Axioms
How so?

The trouble is, humans cannot be quantified. Every hypothesis in psychology is easily disproven. Psychology says that all crows are black, regardless of whether or not one has seen all crows, and concludes that the reason my shirt is not a crow is because it's green.

Um, I don't know what psychological training you've got, but I don't know any psychologist who has a profesional opinion on either haberdashery or ornithology. Personal interest perhaps, but not profesional. In fact a similar statement "Toads have warts, some people have warts, ergo some people are frogs" is a common example of diminished capacity for logical thought that psychologists use to diagnose some forms of schizophrenia.

Can you offer anything more concrete to chastize an entire academic discipline?

I've already seen it, it offers no sound argument contrary to my assertions.

Sounds a bit like faith is, in a large part, groupthink. To some extent we are designed to let other people do some of our thinking for us. That's what professionals are for. But that sort of design flaw can be exploited to make us believe that we are born evil and have to give large amounts of money to old men in Italy, fat men in Virginia, or rich men in Washington if we want to be saved from ourselves.

At first we think "that's stupid, why should I believe in origional sin/the homosexual agenda/supply side economics" but when people only slightly less intelligent than you start to believe it you start thinking it might not be so dumb afterall, and then you have people a little smarter than you thinking that it might be true, so they have you convinced of it. And so on until people are fighting bloody wars in the name of God or apple pie or free-market economics.

There is a major difference between faith and belief. I can believe anything I feel like. I can believe that this fried egg that I hold to my head will help me on tomorrow's test, but it's completely illogical to believe so. Faith is belief and trust with a basis in reality.

There are three areas that I would classify things that people believe. One is in the area of absolute certainty, such as mathematics. This requires no faith, as it is completely illogical to believe that it could be otherwise. On the other end are statements like the fried egg above. This is also not faith as it flies in the race of reality. The third catagory lies between these two extreames. This is where faith is. I don't have absolute proof for something, but neither is it illogical to believe it. If the National Weather Service says that it will be a cold winter, I have faith that they are correct. It is entirely possible for them to be wrong, but it is reasonable to believe them, as they are trained and (supposedly) know what they are talking about. So faith is a reasonable belief without absolute proof.

There is a major difference between faith and belief. I can believe anything I feel like. I can believe that this fried egg that I hold to my head will help me on tomorrow's test, but it's completely illogical to believe so. Faith is belief and trust with a basis in reality.
This is contrary to most people's use of the word. If what you say is true, then all those people who reply to "that belief has no basis in reality' with 'that doesnt matter because I have faith' are contradicting themselves.

There are three areas that I would classify things that people believe. One is in the area of absolute certainty, such as mathematics. This requires no faith, as it is completely illogical to believe that it could be otherwise. On the other end are statements like the fried egg above. This is also not faith as it flies in the race of reality.
It's not too often that the word is used to refer to any belief that has a firm basis in reality, and frankly no belief cant have some basis in reality, however infirm or illogical. All beliefs are derived from reality in some way, regardless how poorly the reflect that reality.

The third catagory lies between these two extreames. This is where faith is. I don't have absolute proof for something, but neither is it illogical to believe it. If the National Weather Service says that it will be a cold winter, I have faith that they are correct. It is entirely possible for them to be wrong, but it is reasonable to believe them, as they are trained and (supposedly) know what they are talking about. So faith is a reasonable belief without absolute proof.
Faith is an absolute conviction, if you have an absolute conviction that whatever the National Weather Service says will happen, you either are unaware of the reality, or your 'faith' ignores this reality completely.

Faith is a conviction that something which cannot at this time be proven, is none the less true. Which is a fancy way of saying 'it feels true so it must be'.

I consider 'faith', in the religious sense, to be perfect trust in one's diety of choice as well as the ideals that come with the territory.

In other aspects, faith can be any of the multitude of dictionary definitions, used as one sees fit.

Religious faith is the creation of a fantasy world where you are significant enough to exist forever in a conscious state when common sense is screaming at you from behind a veiled curtain at great volume to turn off the cosmic nightlight and grow up.

Human Faith is when you have actually experienced something (as far as you know; if you also have religious faith it could be the voluntary schizophrenia again) to make you place trust in a physically existing conscious human being.

Sounds a bit like faith is, in a large part, groupthink. To some extent we are designed to let other people do some of our thinking for us. That's what professionals are for. But that sort of design flaw can be exploited to make us believe that we are born evil and have to give large amounts of money to old men in Italy, fat men in Virginia, or rich men in Washington if we want to be saved from ourselves.

At first we think "that's stupid, why should I believe in origional sin/the homosexual agenda/supply side economics" but when people only slightly less intelligent than you start to believe it you start thinking it might not be so dumb afterall, and then you have people a little smarter than you thinking that it might be true, so they have you convinced of it. And so on until people are fighting bloody wars in the name of God or apple pie or free-market economics.
That's not faith, that's sheep.

I do not know there is a god. However, based on the evidence given, I believe there is a god. I have, actually, proven that there is an order to the universe, some sort of overall princible that governs us. This could be God, this could be mathmatics, this could be... anything, really, but it is there.

Anyway, back on topic, if I believe that overlying princable to be God, but have no proof, I have to accept my belief on faith.

Yes, faith and belief are two different things. Faith is the princible with which we accept a belief as fact.

This is contrary to most people's use of the word. If what you say is true, then all those people who reply to "that belief has no basis in reality' with 'that doesnt matter because I have faith' are contradicting themselves.

Faith is an absolute conviction, if you have an absolute conviction that whatever the National Weather Service says will happen, you either are unaware of the reality, or your 'faith' ignores this reality completely.

Faith is a conviction that something which cannot at this time be proven, is none the less true. Which is a fancy way of saying 'it feels true so it must be'.

You are correct that I concieve of faith differently than most people, but I think that this is the definition that should be used. I notice that people use the word one way when talking about religion, and another completely different way when talking about anything else. I want to adopt the second definition for use in religion.

I am not unaware of reality in regards to the NWS, but I am fully aware of reality, and base my trust in them because of this.

Your second-to-last sentence is correct, but the last one is wrong. Just because something cannot be proven does not mean that it is just based on feelings.