NationStates Jolt Archive

I reeeeeeeaaaally don't want to have to go into the long explanation for the theology of this. Can we please just take my word that it has a very good explanation?


Ummmm.....

...


no.

And if you happen to be innocent (which you aren't, so it's a moot point), life ain't fair. Get over it.

I am over it... but then I don't believe there's an all-powerful omniscient being out there with the ability to MAKE it fair if he got off his butt and did something about it.

And I don't know for sure, but I'm willing to bet that if you are innocent, you won't suffer.

So which is it... newborn babies aren't innocent or newborn babies don't suffer?

Or would you like to change your bet?

Ummmm.....

...


no.
*sigh*

Let me collect my thoughts. I'll get back to you...

I am over it... but then I don't believe there's an all-powerful omniscient being out there with the ability to MAKE it fair if he got off his butt and did something about it.
He did make it fair. In sinning, we choose to make it unfair.



So which is it... newborn babies aren't innocent or newborn babies don't suffer?

Or would you like to change your bet?
I change what I meant in the bet. Ok, yeah, I was thinking suffering in general. Babies can suffer in the world, yes, but they're not going to go to hell.
But on earth, they suffer because we sin. Unfair, but such is life. Our sinning, treating them how they shouldn't be treated, neglect and abuse and whatnot...That's our fault, which is more sin we take upon ourselves. Rest assured, the babies will be rewarded for their suffering in heaven. Golden crowns and mansions and whatnot. It's a sad thing that they get hurt now, but they'll be repaid tenfold in heaven. I'd say that's pretty fair. Hurt now, good stuff in heaven later...
And, our sin of hurting them won't go without punishment.

I change what I meant in the bet. Ok, yeah, I was thinking suffering in general. Babies can suffer in the world, yes, but they're not going to go to hell.
But on earth, they suffer because we sin. Unfair, but such is life. Our sinning, treating them how they shouldn't be treated, neglect and abuse and whatnot
...
And, our sin of hurting them won't go without punishment.
so a baby that born to loving parent who do everything for it and who love it with all their hearts, but which has a congenital birth defect, is suffering is due to human sin? it was human sin that caused thalidomide babies to suffer, even though their mothers (and doctors) only used the drug because they were trying to prevent miscarriage and protect the fetuses? human sin is what caused my little cousin to be born with his heart outside his body, even though his parents were postively ANAL about following every instruction for a healthy pregnancy, birth, and child?

so a baby that born to loving parent who do everything for it and who love it with all their hearts, but which has a congenital birth defect, is suffering is due to human sin?
That isn't necessarily suffering. Just because life is hard it doesn't mean you're suffering, it just means life is a little harder.

Case in point, Deaf people don't think they suffer for being deaf.

it was human sin that caused thalidomide babies to suffer, even though their mothers (and doctors) only used the drug because they were trying to prevent miscarriage and protect the fetuses?
Yes, because even though God created man to be perfect, sin enterted the world and caused us to not be perfect. In other words, people are stupid and they should have been paying more attention.

human sin is what caused my little cousin to be born with his heart outside his body, even though his parents were postively ANAL about following every instruction for a healthy pregnancy, birth, and child?
And do you know if that caused him any pain? Death, if he died, which from the sound of it it seems like he would, is not suffering, unless you're going to hell. Death, in fact, is a sweet release for those going to heaven. Not that I long for death, mind you, but dying wouldn't upset me a bit. It's horribly sad that he died (again, assuming he did)...I feel horrible for your family. But you must realize that they only pain in that death is the pain of your loss, he feels no pain in death.
If he lived(s?), as I said, just because life is a bit harder, that doesn't make it suffering.

He did make it fair. In sinning, we choose to make it unfair.

Is it even possible for a human being not to sin according to the bible, assuming of course they aren't just killed before they have the opportunity?
If it's not possible to do otherwise, we're not making much of a choice by doing it you know.

I change what I meant in the bet. Ok, yeah, I was thinking suffering in general. Babies can suffer in the world, yes, but they're not going to go to hell.

Well actually if I'm to believe the bible...

Nah, nevermind. Maybe some other time.

But on earth, they suffer because we sin.

Which is exactly what was just being denied previously in the thread... that God allows suffering and evil and such to be inflicted on innocent people because of the sins of others. The whole visiting the sins of the father on the son deal. He's not supposed to do that.

Unfair, but such is life.

**Here we go...

And why is life such within a Christian framework? Who made that decision? Who set things up such that just because some people made bad decisions everyone must suffer the consequences? Wasn't me... wasn't you... according to the bible it was God.

Our sinning, treating them how they shouldn't be treated, neglect and abuse and whatnot...That's our fault, which is more sin we take upon ourselves. Rest assured, the babies will be rewarded for their suffering in heaven.

Oh well, that would make everything right then. Sure... I'm going to make you suffer now for no good reason... but I'll treat you nice later! I can't be the only one who isn't impressed by that kind of justification.

Golden crowns and mansions and whatnot. It's a sad thing that they get hurt now, but they'll be repaid tenfold in heaven. I'd say that's pretty fair. Hurt now, good stuff in heaven later...

I wouldn't say that's fair at all. Why should they have to suffer at all in the first place?

And, our sin of hurting them won't go without punishment.

And if it's a natural disaster that hurts them? There was a rather prominent one recently you know. Does God get punished himself for inflicting needless pain and suffering on innocent babies for no good reason?

And en masse too!

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

That settles this debate. God created evil.

But the person above who spoke of good not existing without evil is 100% correct. Good and evil are entirely relative.

Also, if God knows the outcome of your actions, then you have no free will to choose, because it is predetermined. You can not see into the future unless the future has already been planned. He can't see into the future if you can change your path.

It says create disaster, not evil. As in punishment. Btw the way I think misquotation is one of the seven deadly sins. :p

The crux of the matter is that if God can see it before it happens, by the rules of logic it must happen the way he sees it.
Ergo, only one possible choice.

Let me offer this rebuttal. If I am psychic, and I see your future, do I remove your free will? Some day, I will go to some psychic, she will tell me I will get married three times. I will respond by saying "Oh yeah" then whip out a shotgun and shoot myself. My final words will be, you were owned by free will. :p

Let me offer this rebuttal. If I am psychic, and I see your future, do I remove your free will? Some day, I will go to some psychic, she will tell me I will get married three times. I will respond by saying "Oh yeah" then whip out a shotgun and shoot myself. My final words will be, you were owned by free will. :p
I don't believe it is possible for a pyschic (or divination) to see a future that cannot be changed. Certainly if the psychic (or diviner) fails to mention anything to the client the future may play out as seen; but if the future is related to the individual whose destiny is affected, they then have the option to alter it.

So no, the psychic does not remove free will. Predestination is a different story.

*sigh*

Is it even possible for a human being not to sin according to the bible, assuming of course they aren't just killed before they have the opportunity?
If it's not possible to do otherwise, we're not making much of a choice by doing it you know.
No, it's not possible, because we're stupid. It's still our fault. God didn't make us sin, we still choose to sin. AND God won't let us be tempted beyond our ability to resist. Personally, I think that given enough time, people can completely remove sin from their lives. But, that takes too much time. And anyway, that doesn't resolve the fact that you already have sinned.

I know what you're trying to say, and it's an argument as old as the Bible, I suspect. You're trying to say that God is wrong for punishing us for something beyond our control.
It isn't beyond our control, it's beyond our desire. No one can ever be perfect because no man on earth wants to be perfect and wants to never sin. It's not that we're not physically, mentally, or spiritually unable, it is that we just don't want to.

Well actually if I'm to believe the bible...

Nah, nevermind. Maybe some other time.
God will not hold people accountable to that which they do not know. A baby doesn't know how to sin. It's just doing it's own thing.
I could find the verse, but at the moment I rather tired, this being exam week and all.


Which is exactly what was just being denied previously in the thread... that God allows suffering and evil and such to be inflicted on innocent people because of the sins of others. The whole visiting the sins of the father on the son deal. He's not supposed to do that.
I didn't mean directly, as in, you sin so you get hurt. I mean as human beings, we bring sin into the world. This sin festers and grows. All of humanity suffers because all of humanity sins. If you suffer and you haven't sinned, yell at the sinners, not God. The sinners are the ones hurting the innocents.
As for specific troubles, see above. God won't allow you to be tempted beyond your control. And, if you never feel pain, you can never grow. The analogy often used in the Bible is gold: in order for gold to be purified it must first go through the fire.

And why is life such within a Christian framework? Who made that decision? Who set things up such that just because some people made bad decisions everyone must suffer the consequences? Wasn't me... wasn't you... according to the bible it was God.
It's not that someone else made a bad decision, it's that you make bad decisions and I make bad decisions and we all make bad decisions. God isn't responsible for our decisions: he purposefully gave us free will. God made the world fair and excellent and perfect. By sinning, we made it unfair and not perfect and generally not a good place.

Oh well, that would make everything right then. Sure... I'm going to make you suffer now for no good reason... but I'll treat you nice later! I can't be the only one who isn't impressed by that kind of justification.
Well, if you were going to punch me now and give me a million $ later, I'd go for it. And let's think here...a year or two of kinda crap, and then ETERNITY in perfection...Yeah, that's a hard decision to make. I'd take 100 years of living in a box for an eternity of pure joy and happiness.
You fail to comprehend just how good heaven is. It is well worth any suffering we go through now.
And need I remind you the suffering Christ went through? And he certainly didn't deserve it.

I wouldn't say that's fair at all. Why should they have to suffer at all in the first place?
Because we sin. So no they shouldn't have be hurt. I was merely pointing out that it's not like they hurt on earth and then decend into hell. You're right, they shouldn't have to suffer...But who's fault is it? Ours. We cause the pain through our sin. Parents are abusive or druggies or you name it. Don't blame God, blame you and me.

And if it's a natural disaster that hurts them? There was a rather prominent one recently you know. Does God get punished himself for inflicting needless pain and suffering on innocent babies for no good reason?
As I said, life being a little harder isn't suffering. And if the babies die, that is, as I've said, not suffering. That is sweet release into heaven.

AND, as I said before, you can't grow if you never know pain. The time people most often find God is during times of trouble, not when everything's going exactly the way they want it to. Do you think God just hurts people for no reason? No, God has a plan for everything.

Let me ask you this...Do you blame a parent for spanking a kid?

So, to sum it all up: We sin. Because of this, we are separated from God. God allows troubles because it makes us more mature and it brings us closer to him.

I don't believe it is possible for a pyschic (or divination) to see a future that cannot be changed. Certainly if the psychic (or diviner) fails to mention anything to the client the future may play out as seen; but if the future is related to the individual whose destiny is affected, they then have the option to alter it.

So no, the psychic does not remove free will. Predestination is a different story.
How the vast majority of psychics work:

"You will meet a tall, dark stranger!"
You bump into a big black guy. "Hey! This must be what they were talking about, they're so smart."

"Good fortune will come your way!"
You find a fiver on the street. "Awesome! The psychic must have seen this coming!"

"Troubles will come your way soon!"
You stub your toe. "Damn, should have been more careful...the pychic was talking about this..."

"I see...I see...A woman!"
"Is it my mom? It must be my mom!"
"Yes...it is your mother...She is...angry..." *shiftyeyes*
"I must have done something wrong!" *searching memories* "I bet it's cuz she learned about when I had sex with that girl in highschool!"
"Yes....that's it...yeah....."

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

That settles this debate. God created evil.
Just because God made it, doesn't mean you have to do it. You still choose to do it. God still said not to, and we still do, so it's still our fault.

And as far as predetermination and such.

I know that there is going to be someone who will disagree with everything I have said in this post, inluding this part, but that doesn't mean I'm making them do it, or that they don't have the will not to. I just know that they will choose to. God doesn't know the future because he controls it. He knows the future because humanity is incredibly stupid, obvious, and predictable.

*sigh*


No, it's not possible, because we're stupid. It's still our fault. God didn't make us sin, we still choose to sin. AND God won't let us be tempted beyond our ability to resist.

Excuse me?

Let's just call it a conservative estimate of 50 billion people who have lived in the last few thousand years.

ZERO have managed to resist sin according to the bible.

Zero for 50 billion managing to resist is not a figure that is indicative of your statement being anything remotely resembling the truth.

I know what you're trying to say, and it's an argument as old as the Bible, I suspect. You're trying to say that God is wrong for punishing us for something beyond our control.

I'm willing to bet it's a statement of principle quite a bit older than the bible actually.

It isn't beyond our control, it's beyond our desire. No one can ever be perfect because no man on earth wants to be perfect and wants to never sin.

Nice mind reading trick, and extremely impressive that you were able to pull it off for every single person on the planet.

Hey, what number am I thinking of?

God will not hold people accountable to that which they do not know.

Really? So according to this reasoning I'm going to heaven then? Because I certainly don't know that a single solitary thing the bible says about sin is anything remotely resembling the truth.

A baby doesn't know how to sin. It's just doing it's own thing.
I could find the verse, but at the moment I rather tired, this being exam week and all.

I'll wait.

I didn't mean directly, as in, you sin so you get hurt. I mean as human beings, we bring sin into the world. This sin festers and grows. All of humanity suffers because all of humanity sins.

But all of humanity DOESN'T sin since you just admitted little babies don't sin, and they're part of humanity.

If you suffer and you haven't sinned, yell at the sinners, not God. The sinners are the ones hurting the innocents.

No, the system is. Point me at the sinner responsible for the recent tsunami if you don't mind.

For that I am perfectly justified at yelling at God.

Well, if I thought there was anything there to yell at of course.

As for specific troubles, see above. God won't allow you to be tempted beyond your control. And, if you never feel pain, you can never grow.

I've grown in all kinds of ways that didn't involve me feeling pain, so I'm going to have to call you on that one.

The analogy often used in the Bible is gold: in order for gold to be purified it must first go through the fire.

Unless of course you're omnipotent and can just wave the impurities away... or create it pure in the first place if what you wanted was purity.

It's not that someone else made a bad decision, it's that you make bad decisions and I make bad decisions and we all make bad decisions. God isn't responsible for our decisions: he purposefully gave us free will. God made the world fair and excellent and perfect.

Are we not part of the world? Perfect things don't make the wrong choices. By definition.

And if he created us flawed, whose fault is that?

Well, if you were going to punch me now and give me a million $ later, I'd go for it.

But I'd be kind of a dick for making you take the punch for no reason instead of just giving you the million. I'd seem to have a bit of a sadistic streak too.

You fail to comprehend just how good heaven is.

Doesn't matter, the underlying principle doesn't change.

It is well worth any suffering we go through now.
And need I remind you the suffering Christ went through? And he certainly didn't deserve it.

Surely not... but do you really want to get me started on yet another biblical irrationality?

As I said, life being a little harder isn't suffering.

But I'd say having your bones crushed by a raging torrent of debris or slowly choking to death on a lungful of mud-churned water filling your lungs would qualify as suffering.

AND, as I said before, you can't grow if you never know pain.

Why not? Is that the one thing that's beyond God's power? He can conjure whole universes into existence but he can't create people who can grow without being tormented?

The time people most often find God is during times of trouble,

Yeah... funny how that works isn't it?

Let me ask you this...Do you blame a parent for spanking a kid?

Do you draw no distinction between spanking and the more severe kinds of torments inflicted on some people in the world?

Do you also draw no distinction between the methods available to a mortal human being and an omnipotent deity?

Morality: Yes.
Sin: No.

moral law is impressed with a fundamental 'sense' of right and wrong.
Everyone from birth has these fundamentals of right and wrong. Right and wrong is not the same as good and evil. so adam and eve could have know that it was right to obey God and wrong to disobey.