NationStates Jolt Archive

Education being Kindergarten through High School. I think that if it was not mandatory then yes the intelligence rate would drop, but it would eliminate the negativity towards education in the schools, and the ones that want to strive dont have to be ridiculed for working hard. The ones that decide not to can be morons until they realize they need it and go back, its all in a matter of motivation.

I think education should be mandatory but more flexible. And people should be encouraged to have a more positive approach towards education.

thats good input but im sorry but i dont think that the negative attitude will be eliminated, but i do think, and this is something i forgot to include is that grades should be determined on intellect not age.

No, it shouldn't. Mandatory education is tyranny.

Education in the arts and sciences should be mandatory up through an Associate's Degree (2 year college degree in US). Sports should be by volunteer process and not taken out of the school's budget.

Education in the arts and sciences should be mandatory up through an Associate's Degree (2 year college degree in US). Sports should be by volunteer process and not taken out of the school's budget.


ah yes, the horrors of public education... so depressing. I dont know what moron came up with it.

Yes, it should. Unless you think it is a good idea for a good chunk of the population being completely uneducated and allowed to vote. A more educated population is a something every country should strive for.

Yes, it should. Unless you think it is a good idea for a good chunk of the population being completely uneducated and allowed to vote. A more educated population is a something every country should strive for.


I was just trying to appeal the interests of everyone, instead of forcing someone to do something in a "free" country.

Of course it should be. Kids don't know what's good for them. You shouldn't have to pay all your life for things you did (or didn't) when you were 8.

Education being Kindergarten through High School. I think that if it was not mandatory then yes the intelligence rate would drop, but it would eliminate the negativity towards education in the schools, and the ones that want to strive dont have to be ridiculed for working hard. The ones that decide not to can be morons until they realize they need it and go back, its all in a matter of motivation.

Without mandatory education, wouldn't we be even more subject to the casting that Capitalism is accused of encouraging? Let me put it another way. If we didn't pretend to require certain standards be met, wouldn't that just exaggerate the differences between the educated elite and the undereducated lower classes?

It seems your main objection is the lack of effort put out by your colleagues. Wouldn't stricter adherence to a code of conduct, where expulsion was a real possiblity, help more than just relieving some lazy oafs of the responsibility for their future?

educatiom should be mandatory but you shouldn't vote unless you have at least a highschool that way they'll be less uneducated rednecks voting repulican

ah yes, the horrors of public education... so depressing. I dont know what moron came up with it.
I think moron can actually be named, but I can't think of it right now. Public education is traceable to industry's desire for more highly trained labor.

It seems your main objection is the lack of effort put out by your colleagues. Wouldn't stricter adherence to a code of conduct, where expulsion was a real possiblity, help more than just relieving some lazy oafs of the responsibility for their future?

Expulsion really isn't a big worry if a kid doesn't care about school very much.

I think education should be made pleasant enough that very few people would want to avoid it.

Of course it should be. Kids don't know what's good for them. You shouldn't have to pay all your life for things you did (or didn't) when you were 8.



true, true, but there is always going back. but i dont know, i guess if there were more of the morons on the world, then it wouldnt be frowned upon for going back to get educated.

I think education should be made pleasant enough that very few people would want to avoid it.


mantessori baby!

Fundamentally I believe that compulsory education is authoritarian and unjust. However, I also believe that it has very positive effects on society, so I also believe that it is a necessary authoritarian evil. This might also be influenced by my philology, but I truly believe that the world is a better place with compulsory education.

Mandatory education, conscription, and slavery are all equally odious in my mind.

Expulsion really isn't a big worry if a kid doesn't care about school very much.
Maybe hard labor in their free time, then.

Of course.

A child could not decide for themselves so the parents would have to make the situation. I don't know about you, if my parents decided against me going to school; I'd be pretty annoyed.

What other things will these children do during this time? If people are going to have the right to vote, they should at least be educated.

I believe schools should teach our children more about real life. How to do interviews, politics, current affairs, adding up the shopping, things that count.

I also believe that there should be 3 types of school. Pure-academic schools, midway schools and more blue collar based schools. For the average blue collar worker, what good did learning a second language or calculus do? I doubt he could even remember it. Why not give them a more vocational education? Something they can use, a skill. (Obviously they should still be taught the core subjects; english, maths, science and the real life stuff I touched in the previous paragraph.) Not only would this allow children to earn skills that would be valuable but I also think it would give children a lot more respect for the education system and therefore improve the disciplinary problems in our schools. Academic students could concentrate on the skills that they want, etc etc. Maybe children should be split into schools like this around the age of 14.

Thoughts?

Of course.

A child could not decide for themselves so the parents would have to make the situation. I don't know about you, if my parents decided against me going to school; I'd be pretty annoyed.

What other things will these children do during this time? If people are going to have the right to vote, they should at least be educated.

I believe schools should teach our children more about real life. How to do interviews, politics, current affairs, adding up the shopping, things that count.

I also believe that there should be 3 types of school. Pure-academic schools, midway schools and more blue collar based schools. For the average blue collar worker, what good did learning a second language or calculus do? I doubt he could even remember it. Why not give them a more vocational education? Something they can use, a skill. (Obviously they should still be taught the core subjects; english, maths, science and the real life stuff I touched in the previous paragraph.) Not only would this allow children to earn skills that would be valuable but I also think it would give children a lot more respect for the education system and therefore improve the disciplinary problems in our schools. Academic students could concentrate on the skills that they want, etc etc. Maybe children should be split into schools like this around the age of 14.

Thoughts?


you should look up the mantessori (i think thats how it's spelled) education system, i think thats just about what you described, just not as plain and clean as you did.

No, I don't think it should, those that are going to go to school, will go, and those that won't obviously won't. Mandatory education brings down those that actually want to be there, because the school system adjusts for the average those that don't want to be there bring the average down, thus hurting those trying to suceed.

No, I don't think it should, those that are going to go to school, will go, and those that won't obviously won't. Mandatory education brings down those that actually want to be there, because the school system adjusts for the average those that don't want to be there bring the average down, thus hurting those trying to suceed.


indeed, but if it continues to be mandatory grades need to be determined on intellect, like i've said earlier. As well as sports not being affiliated with the school. And the world says everyone is different right? well if everyone is different then why is there virtually the same curriculum for everyone, let the kid decide what he's interested in, there quite a difference between interest and laziness. I've seen it in many kids, things they are interested in they dont slack off, so why punish everyone by making them do pointless and even painful things for no reason. Too many times have i heard from grown adults about how they dont remember any of the things their teacher taught them about anything.

you should look up the mantessori (i think thats how it's spelled) education system, i think thats just about what you described, just not as plain and clean as you did.

I think it's spelled mOntessori, and I think 14 is too early. 16 oughta do it, though. :cool:

I think it's spelled mOntessori, and I think 14 is too early. 16 oughta do it, though. :cool:

thats why i put the little note in the little brackets :)

indeed, but if it continues to be mandatory grades need to be determined on intellect, like i've said earlier. As well as sports not being affiliated with the school. And the world says everyone is different right? well if everyone is different then why is there virtually the same curriculum for everyone, let the kid decide what he's interested in, there quite a difference between interest and laziness. I've seen it in many kids, things they are interested in they dont slack off, so why punish everyone by making them do pointless and even painful things for no reason. Too many times have i heard from grown adults about how they dont remember any of the things their teacher taught them about anything.
OH you mean like CIM?

anyway, Yes, but school's are never going to do that, mainly because if they did, many of those people would choose the easiest classes possible.

thats why i put the little note in the little brackets :)

And that's why I corrected you ;)

OH you mean like CIM?

anyway, Yes, but school's are never going to do that, mainly because if they did, many of those people would choose the easiest classes possible.


thats why i said theres a different between interest and laziness

thats why i said theres a different between interest and laziness
so do you know what CIM is?

What a ridiculously crappy and stupid question.
Are you retarded?

so do you know what CIM is?


nope

What a ridiculously crappy and stupid question.
Are you retarded?

nope

What a ridiculously crappy and stupid question.
Are you retarded?
N00b!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's actuallly a valid question

nope
Thank you for proving a point of mine

CIM is the Certificate of Initial Mastery. Every school I have been to (oregon) has claimed it will do great things for you, but alas, nobody even knows what CIM is, so there by rendering it entirely pointless. They try to imply that you need it to graduate, but you don't, all you get is a stupid extra tassle when you graduate. Even the local colleges don't even know what it is. The only reason they force it on us is so they can get extra money. Now I had my CIM all finished, but then I moved, and they lost all of my scores so I refuse to take them again.

Thank you for proving a point of mine

CIM is the Certificate of Initial Mastery. Every school I have been to (oregon) has claimed it will do great things for you, but alas, nobody even knows what CIM is, so there by rendering it entirely pointless. They try to imply that you need it to graduate, but you don't, all you get is a stupid extra tassle when you graduate. Even the local colleges don't even know what it is. The only reason they force it on us is so they can get extra money. Now I had my CIM all finished, but then I moved, and they lost all of my scores so I refuse to take them again.


anytime, and wow that sucks

anytime, and wow that sucks
so that is the main reason I think school should not be mandatory is because the schools dumb down the curriculum to the lowest common denominator, to make room for those that don't wanna be there

I'll be back in about a half hour, so I'll continue then.

Up to a point, in some of the United States, it isn't; such a thing exists as "unschooling," which is a laissez-faire approach to homeschool, basically. The student is presented with opportunities to learn, by life or by a parent or other teacher, and chooses to take advantage of them or not according to his or her own pace and incilination. The assumptions behind this practice are that no person (particularly the government) has a right to put someone else's learning on a schedule; that education is a right, not an obligation, more akin to play than to work if done properly; and that the human mind is naturally disposed to exercise itself in unique and valuable ways, and will do so best when it is self-motivated. Peer pressure also becomes a factor, of course-- but the motivation still comes from within, not from basically jailing students in a classroom that may or not present worthwhile opportunities to learn. I was unschooled and can say that at least in my case, curiosity was enough to motivate me.

When I did go to a public school, I was amazed and disheartened by the slow pacing, the attitude that education is drudgery, and the squashing of creativity that I witnessed. I value now that I am not as programmed to think in the ruts that our educational system has deemed "standard" ways, socially or intellectually. I did not learn the specific survival skills that students in public schools must learn-- such as how to please the teacher, how to avoid being bullied, how to keep my stuff from being stolen, how to pass tests with the least possible amount of prior education, how to only socialize with those of my own age, how to act less intelligent than I am, how to denigrate those that learn differently than I do, how to behave like a dream consumer, a placid and passive sponge, or a perfectly docile girl-- all of which are what pass for "social skills" or "socialization" and are what most people skeptical of unschooling worry most about-- but I had learned how to learn anything on my own that I needed to, so I was fine anyway, and still am as I enter into career life now, though sometimes a heightened awareness of oppressive or banal social patterns is more of a curse than a blessing.

My "teachers" were the ordinary people that filled my life, the authors of countless books, nature, necessity, my peers. Unschooling or homeschooling could work for anyone with decent parents if it could work for me (perhaps even if, as in my case, one parent-- who stayed at home with me and my sister while the other worked at a relatively low-paying job-- had a moderately debilitating mental illness). The only benefits I see to public schools is that they are free day care, which many people cannot afford to do without; that many children learn second or third languages in them (harder to do without immersion, which at home is not always practical); and that in some horrible cases they are the least evil places where children must spend their time. I doubt that any of these benefits would necessarily disappear if education were made voluntary in every state. Plus, the fallacy that there is one standard "right way" to learn would be weakened by such a move, to the great benefit of culture, probably.

This is long. Sorry if that bothers you! This is something I feel strongly about, though.

Of course.

A child could not decide for themselves so the parents would have to make the situation. I don't know about you, if my parents decided against me going to school; I'd be pretty annoyed.

What other things will these children do during this time? If people are going to have the right to vote, they should at least be educated.

I believe schools should teach our children more about real life. How to do interviews, politics, current affairs, adding up the shopping, things that count.

I also believe that there should be 3 types of school. Pure-academic schools, midway schools and more blue collar based schools. For the average blue collar worker, what good did learning a second language or calculus do? I doubt he could even remember it. Why not give them a more vocational education? Something they can use, a skill. (Obviously they should still be taught the core subjects; english, maths, science and the real life stuff I touched in the previous paragraph.) Not only would this allow children to earn skills that would be valuable but I also think it would give children a lot more respect for the education system and therefore improve the disciplinary problems in our schools. Academic students could concentrate on the skills that they want, etc etc. Maybe children should be split into schools like this around the age of 14.

Thoughts?

That's about what the Germans do, except they split at 6th grade.

Education being Kindergarten through High School. I think that if it was not mandatory then yes the intelligence rate would drop, but it would eliminate the negativity towards education in the schools, and the ones that want to strive dont have to be ridiculed for working hard. The ones that decide not to can be morons until they realize they need it and go back, its all in a matter of motivation.

I notice a massive difference in the atmosphere between college and high school, and the only thing that I can think of to account for this is that college is not mandatory. People actually want to be there. They want to learn. Quality goes up when people are willing consumers rather than forced consumers.

That's about what the Germans do, except they split at 6th grade.
In Switzerland there's usually a split after 6th grade (age 12). There are 3 'schools' one can go to afterwards, one that prepares students for a pre-university school, one that prepares students for most apprenticeships (quite common) and one in between.
While I do think it is a good idea not to teach everyone on the same level, I don't support our system. Students going to the 'low-level' school are generally not motivated to study. In addition to this, where I went to school the first two schools were financed by the county, and the 'top' one by the state. There was a big rivalry between the different schools.
I think it would be best to find a solution in between, to have different 'levels' in all the subjects and students can follow say, math and chemistry class on the top level, and other subjects on other levels. (I think this is the case in most parts of America, isn't it? I'm thinking about 'honors classes' here)

Of course.

A child could not decide for themselves so the parents would have to make the situation. I don't know about you, if my parents decided against me going to school; I'd be pretty annoyed.

What other things will these children do during this time? If people are going to have the right to vote, they should at least be educated.

I believe schools should teach our children more about real life. How to do interviews, politics, current affairs, adding up the shopping, things that count.

I also believe that there should be 3 types of school. Pure-academic schools, midway schools and more blue collar based schools. For the average blue collar worker, what good did learning a second language or calculus do? I doubt he could even remember it. Why not give them a more vocational education? Something they can use, a skill. (Obviously they should still be taught the core subjects; english, maths, science and the real life stuff I touched in the previous paragraph.) Not only would this allow children to earn skills that would be valuable but I also think it would give children a lot more respect for the education system and therefore improve the disciplinary problems in our schools. Academic students could concentrate on the skills that they want, etc etc. Maybe children should be split into schools like this around the age of 14.

Thoughts?

i think its a bad idea. it shuttles kids off to non college tracks when they are too young to really know if they are interested in further education or not. there should be high standards of education PLUS some practical courses that can lead to good paying blue collar jobs out of highschool.

but then i live in an area where some kids are considered inferior by virtue of ethnicity so it would just mean that those kids, no matter what their intelligence and goals, would be shunted off to the side.

It's a pity that people always say "this was my specific experience of school, it wasnt great therefore school is bad." Surely it makes more sense to consider an idealised (yet ultimately possible) version of education then attempt to work towards it?
My aim would be for mandatory education until about 14 or 16, followed by various options for further education (or not) - infact very similar to the current english system. The teachers would be trained to recognise how different people maximise learning and options such as homeschooling be made available on their advise.

Look at the advantages of a decent school system (and it is practical; i was fortunate enough to go to such schools):

`Exposure to a wide cross-section of society - (perhaps this needs more explanation as it's often cited as a negative: mandatory indescriminate schooling inevitably introduces you to a microcosm of society in your area, and thus helps you prepare for life. Shock horror, there are bullies in schools - there are bullies in real life, and cliques and grudges and mates and authority figures etc.)
`The chance to make friends with people you'd never meet otherwise
`Numberous experts on hand to spot your talents and encourage your productivity
`A well-rounded education in all important areas to better equip you in adult life
`The opportunity to specialise as you progress and a wide range of options for specialization
`Physical fitness
`Help and support in areas other than education (future aspirations, guidance with personal life, social activities, etc)
`I'm sure there's many more i cant think of off the top of my head

Surely that's what we should be aiming for?
I understand that a few people have the attitude that any form of mandate by the government is in breach of basic civil rights, but isn't this merely a minor temporary 'evil' for the greater benefit of society as a whole? (for example: it's unethical to break someone's ribs. But to break their ribs in order to perform heart surgury? Most people would accept that's ok. Likewise, it's unethical to remove certian civil liberties, but isnt there a greater good of allowing both the people themselves and society as a whole more freedom in the rest of their life?)

Sphinthianiah - unfortunately it seems you're not looking further than your own situation. Let's take my best friend as an alternative example. The brightest person i know, but lazy and with one unmotivated mother. In your system of voluntary schooling he'd have gone to school for a couple of years when very young then left as soon as he could look after himself reasonably at home - say around 10. Hung around with similar mates for a couple of years, gotten a poor paying job then perhaps realised that he needed an education to get much further in life and returned to school. I can say this accurately because this is exactly waht he did - albeit leaving when he was 16 thanks to the law. In your system he'd have lost 3 or 4 years of vital education when his brain was at it's most open to learning, fortunately in the real world he had a solid base of edcuation before he left, and his only loss has been the couple of years out (not greatly affected by the amount he could have learned during that time).

thats good input but im sorry but i dont think that the negative attitude will be eliminated, but i do think, and this is something i forgot to include is that grades should be determined on intellect not age.
I completely agree.
that is one of the reasons I go to private school.
If I had to go to public school i would have to go down a grade.
I think that schooling should be mandatory.

I completely agree.
that is one of the reasons I go to private school.
If I had to go to public school i would have to go down a grade.
I think that schooling should be mandatory.
what abou tthose that can't afford private education, one of my friends was in that situation. He went to private school for a while, but his mom broke her hip, and him and his brother couldn't go anymore. I feel he didn't get a propper education in the transition, because the same grade level at a public school, was so much lower than he was used to.

"Should Education Be Mandatory?"

Most definiately! Anything less is a prescription for total disaster. If you think things are bad now ... ! :headbang:

I completely agree.
that is one of the reasons I go to private school.
If I had to go to public school i would have to go down a grade.
I think that schooling should be mandatory.

Yes, schooling should be mandatory. You learn more than 2+2 in school. People seem to skip over the social and emotional teachings of school. You learn how to interact with others. how to hold yourself around others. scooling sets aminimum of social ettiqutte in a way.

Please. Thankyou. These words are not taught in every household. I live in australia, but our PM is so far up Bush's arse that we are considered american, so my points are probably still applicable in the states. If not for school... potential would be lost... i mean if it weren't mandatory, slack parents wouldnt even bother starting their children in school, thus ruining their futures, before they can.

And when people talk about the interllectual boundaries in school... i think that should be demolished. Private schools are a lot of hoohar. I deserve to go to one, but my parents cant afford it, so i am therefore stuck in a dead end hole the government built. Public schooling should have different groups. i shouldnt have to study with more than half of my class making a mockery of geography.

The solution? we create stricter government schools... giving us different enviroments suited to different peoiple. this way... the idiots are still learning, and as much as they resent it, creating some sort of futurr for themselves. and then people like myself, who cannot afford $4000 a year tuition, can have an equal oppotunity to build upon them selves.

The government is doing good with mandatory schooling... bad with mixed classes... even worse with split grades! URGH!

My parents had the money to send me to private school and i had the ability to go. They chose not to send me and i'm glad for it.
A state school introduces people to wide aspects of society, helpsyou appreciate the differing needs and abilities of those you live with and helps you meet/interact with/learn from people you'd never normally know.
For example - in one class i sat next to a kid who wasn't very bright and had a hyper-activity disorder. Occasionally he annoyed me, overall i feel i benefitted more from explaining things to him and talking to him than i could have done had i been working in an enviroment where everyone was at the same level.
I feel my social skills improved immensely as i had to vary conversation and pace to suit the different people i was brought into contact with. I was, perhaps, challenged slightly less than i would have been at a different schol but for that price i didn't grow up in an exclusivist middle class enviroment, and i'm glad.

Personally i think you're close Kaserne Schwarz, but I don't see that more flexible educational systems to further challenge gifted children are necessarily incompatible with mixed classes.

educatiom should be mandatory but you shouldn't vote unless you have at least a highschool that way they'll be less uneducated rednecks voting repulican


Sorry, but dropouts traditionally vote for democrats!