NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm interested, and bored. Why don't you believe in a higher deity? Do not say "because I just don't", give me a logical explanation as to why you don't believe.

Fine. You twisted my arm. I'll bite.

I have to fall back on the simple and much cliched solution of Occam's Razor (sp?). The simplest answer is almost certain to be the correct answer.

No matter how you look at it, an all powerful, all encompassing, omniscient being is vastly more complex and has more complex rules governing its actions than the rules that dictate the natural processes of matter and energy. Visions of a creator are far more easily reduced to delusional mental states and schitzophrenia. Since, these subjective mental states are not observable or testable in any objective sense, I fail to see the point in attaching anything as inflexible as belief to a deity's existence.

You guys must not understand what im saying. I DO know that Job is poetry. Unfortunately, the term literal has different meanings to different people. Specifically, widespread confusion exists over the meaning of the word literal (when used in connection with Bible interpretation), as well as the distinction between the words literal and true.

Many fail to discern the distinction between the words literal and true, which, in fact, are not equivalent. To say that a Bible passage is true is to say that it correctly describes reality. For example, Job moaned, "For the arrows of the Almighty are within me; My spirit drinks in their poison" (Job 6:4). He used figurative language to express his conviction that God was the author of his sufferings. His belief, however, was incorrect, since the cause of his sufferings was Satan.

These distinctions are critical for achieving an accurate interpretation
of Bible teaching. In Scripture (through human instrumentality), God employed a variety of literary genres, including poetry, narrative history, law, proverb, parable, riddle, epistle, apocalypse, genealogy, prophecy, biography, and more. All of these literary forms convey truth, though they do so in different ways in keeping with their own peculiar linguistic features. To ignore this variation and literalize every verse creates misinterpretation and misrepresentation of what the Bible actually teaches.

If something is told through poetry it cannot be thrown out as not true.
No arguement, there. You are correct: literal does not mean "true"; non-literal does not mean "false". The only confusion that exists from use of the word literal is that that arises from incorrect use. If you had not used it incorrectly, I wouldn't have said anything; specifically, "Literal doesn't mean that we reject symbolism." (That's exactly what it does mean ;).)

But that's because the old testament (sp?) is -really- for an ENTIRELY different religion. Well, not entirely, but I think you understand what I mean.
Only kind of. It is present and necessary in pretty much all of Judaeo-Christianity, except for a few Christians who think it doesn't apply. The Torah was indeed written by another religion, but also applies to its "successor". The Old Testament, Pentateuch, Five Books of Moses--whatever you wish--is for Christians as well. Judaism and Christianity are not all that different. Just as all Abrahamic religions are related at a basic level.

im currently in my second semester of hebrew and the poetry is some of the best ever written. (IMO)
You are so right here. Semitic languages have some of the most amazing poetry I've seen. The Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám comes to mind.

Gn'I, that was the absolute funniest way I've heard anybody say someone else got "pwned".
:D
Hear, hear!

its really no different than having faith that you WILL win a competition, even though there is no proof of it. its easy for someone to say "hey, i will win this competition." but its too terrifying for that same person to say "hey, there is a god out there."
Well, umm, it actually is different. One is a way of boosting confidence and all that. The other is a way of boosting comfort. They are actually very similar, though it depends on the person.

"Literal doesn't mean that we reject symbolism." (That's exactly what it does mean ;).)
No, not rejecting symbolism. Just interpreting something as non-symbolic.

No, not rejecting symbolism. Just interpreting something as non-symbolic.
I am at a loss to see the difference.

you all sit there and say "i don't believe in god because there is no proof of a god." well of course there isn't. the point of a religion or believing in a god is all about faith. you just have faith that there IS something out there to believe in. its really no different than having faith that you WILL win a competition, even though there is no proof of it. its easy for someone to say "hey, i will win this competition." but its too terrifying for that same person to say "hey, there is a god out there."

it's all about faith. so yeah... if you look for physical proof of a higher power, you'll be searching your entire life and you'll probably never find it.

but that's only my opinion on god.

tim


So do you believe in Santa and the Easter Bunny?

You have no proof of either, so you SHOULD believe in them.

And you mistake faith and logical assumption on probability.

If I'm someone who usually wins at a sport, it is likely that I will win at that sport again if the situation is largely the same as it has been before. It's not guaranteed to happen, but by the numbers, it most likely will. It's not LIKELY that a plane will fall on me, so I can assume it's safe to walk outside. I may still be eating 747, but chances are, I'm safe.

This doesn't work with magic and non-evidenced things.

I am at a loss to see the difference.
One is turning away from symbolism. One is interpreting something a certain way. It is just an argument of semantics.

Holy shit. I'd totally forgotten that I had made this topic, let alone that it was still alive. Damn.

Oh, and I hope the 500- some people that posted on this topic find God someday ;)

Holy shit. I'd totally forgotten that I had made this topic, let alone that it was still alive. Damn.

Oh, and I hope the 500- some people that posted on this topic find God someday ;)
...i hope your head finds its way out of your ass someday. :)

...i hope your head finds its way out of your ass someday. :)
I think it's too warm and cozy in there.

...i hope your head finds its way out of your ass someday. :)

Yeah. I get that a lot from people like yourself. Did I offend you? No. Did I insult you? No. Then take it back.

Then take it back.
Thank you, you just made my day. You sound exactly like a 5-year-old!

Yeah. I get that a lot from people like yourself. Did I offend you? No. Did I insult you? No. Then take it back.
yes, you did insult me. and all other "non-belivers" by assuming that we need this god of yours. i find it to be highly insulting and if you can't see that well, then maybe it's because you have such a wonderful view of your lower intestine.

oh and if "people like yourself" isn't an insult, i don't know what it is.

yes, you did insult me. and all other "non-belivers" by assuming that we need this god of yours. i find it to be highly insulting and if you can't see that well, then maybe it's because you have such a wonderful view of your lower intestine.

I'm not trying to insult you. Saying your belief is wrong isn't insulting you, it's common sense. Obviously, If I believe something, and you believ ethe opposite, I belive that what you believe is wrong. There can't be a God and not be a God at the same time. So one of us is wrong. And neither can prove that we are right. God's made his presence known to me. Maybe he hasn't to you, because you don't believe you need him. It doesn't matter to me that you don't believe in God. I don't care. I never said that "you're wrong". I said I believe you are wrong. A truth and a belief are two different things. And niether can prove it one way or the other.

Thank you, you just made my day. You sound exactly like a 5-year-old!

You made my day for suggesting that I sound like a 5 year old. I didn't insult him, he insulted me.

You made my day for suggesting that I sound like a 5 year old. I didn't insult him, he insulted me.
and look, now you're insulting me by getting my gender wrong based on your assumption.

and "take it back" is something a 5 year old would say.

and look, now you're insulting me by getting my gender wrong based on your assumption.

and "take it back" is something a 5 year old would say.

That's not an insult. It's a blind guess. How am I to know your gender?

And, your point? I didn't deserve to be insulted.

Oh, and I hope the 500- some people that posted on this topic find God someday ;)

Why? Did he get lost again....?! Maybe you should invest in a leash... :D

I'm not trying to insult you. Saying your belief is wrong isn't insulting you, it's common sense. Obviously, If I believe something, and you believ ethe opposite, I belive that what you believe is wrong.
yet you suggested that i should be indoctrinated into your syetem of beliefs, which as a freely thinking person i feel insulted by.

furthermore, how is it that i believe the opposite of you? there are many principles that were taught by the jesus character in the bible that i follow, not because he taught them, but because they are good and sensible things to live by.

i suppose i believe the opposite in that i don't believe everyone should be converted to my way of thinking and you just made it obvious that you do.

There can't be a God and not be a God at the same time. So one of us is wrong. And neither can prove that we are right.

and i don't believe either. this is where assumptions get you. ouch.

God's made his presence known to me. Maybe he hasn't to you, because you don't believe you need him. It doesn't matter to me that you don't believe in God.
1. when i needed this god and sought him out, he wasn't there.
2. i have discovered i am a complete personw ithout this god (the awkwardness of puberty has long departed and i am secure in my identity now)
3. if you don't care whether i find god then why did you say that you hoped we all found your god?

I never said that "you're wrong". I said I believe you are wrong. A truth and a belief are two different things. And niether can prove it one way or the other.
actually, since my beliefs are exactly that it can't be proven either way, you've essentially admitted that i'm right.

... yeah...

That's not an insult. It's a blind guess. How am I to know your gender?

now that was a joke.

And, your point? I didn't deserve to be insulted.

i didn't deserve to be insulted either, yet you went ahead and insulted me and everyone else who does not believe as you do.

Why? Did he get lost again....?! Maybe you should invest in a leash... :D
hahaha. i should do that. just make those invisible dog leashes and claim that it's god on a leash. it will be bigger than the pet rock!

Nice try, but flawed.

Hebrews wrote the Old Testament - and didn't believe in the Trinity.

They did, however, start as polytheistic society - which is what is 'left over' in the Genesis 1 account.

However not only is it a nice try it is also extremely plausible. Since the Holy Spirit inspired the writings of the Holy Bible(from a orthodox Christian worldview) it would make sense that even if the Hebrews did not understand the trinity, it could still be evidenced in the Old Testament.

Now you must understand that some of the evidence for the trinity is actually from the Old Testament. There is something like 20, 000 plural references to God. This fits in perfectly with the doctrine of the trinity that is expounded in the New Testament.

And Paul of course should know since he was a very orthodox Pharisee!


Polytheistic society? Have you ever read the Bible? What is the last verse in Genesis? Read it and decide whether from Genesis one they were polytheistic.

i didn't deserve to be insulted either, yet you went ahead and insulted me and everyone else who does not believe as you do.


Explain this. For example. If a person is going around believing the world is flat, is it insulting to tell them that they are wrong if you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are correct?

Is it wrong to tell the truth? Not just as you see it but how it is. Believe me if there is something that stands out about Christianity to me it is truth.

"Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;..." 2 Peter 2:2

I don't know Haloman so I can't say for sure. But in my case it's not that I think I'm 'better than you'. I think that I have had better information given to me than you(through nothing I've done on my own).

But now you have been given the information and it's your call what you choose to do. It's in your hands, and it affects everything.

Faith is a hot topic as this thread testifies. Whether you choose to disagree or agree.
:)

You made my day for suggesting that I sound like a 5 year old. I didn't insult him, he insulted me.
"Mommy! She made fun of me! Make her take it back!"

However not only is it a nice try it is also extremely plausible. Since the Holy Spirit inspired the writings of the Holy Bible(from a orthodox Christian worldview) it would make sense that even if the Hebrews did not understand the trinity, it could still be evidenced in the Old Testament.
Ah! This is a good point, but only from a Christian perspective of the Trinity actually existing.

Polytheistic society? Have you ever read the Bible? What is the last verse in Genesis? Read it and decide whether from Genesis one they were polytheistic.
You said it earlier, there are many references to God in the plural in the Torah. Every heard of Elohim? It means "Gods". The singular is Eloheinu. There are many theories as to why it is that God is referenced in the plural, and the most popular happens to be that the Hebrews adopted it form the polytheistic Pagans.

science just appeals to me more than religion does. im not a blind faith kinda guy, which religion pretty much requires.
also, even if you decide there is a god, which religion do you pick when they all claim to be right?

Explain this. For example. If a person is going around believing the world is flat, is it insulting to tell them that they are wrong if you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are correct?

Is it wrong to tell the truth? Not just as you see it but how it is. Believe me if there is something that stands out about Christianity to me it is truth.

funny, to me it's meaningless.

furthermore, he insulted my intelligence as well as the intelligence of everyone on this board. he also made the mistaken assumption that everyone who does not believe never thought about it, just simply dismissed it completely with no previous knowledge.

You said it earlier, there are many references to God in the plural in the Torah. Every heard of Elohim? It means "Gods". The singular is Eloheinu. There are many theories as to why it is that God is referenced in the plural, and the most popular happens to be that the Hebrews adopted it from the polytheistic Pagans.

True. Yes i have heard of Elohim, and Adonai and whatever other Hebrew word they used for God:)(hopefully hehe). Just because a view is the most popular does not mean it is true, right? If that was the case we would still be using stone tools.

But besides that yes there are many theories out there. Why would the Hebrews(if not truly inspired) write so much failure on the part of their forefathers? Wouldn't they wish to cast them in a bright light emphasizing their superiority? Jacob, Abraham etc

And by the way Haloman Originally Posted by Haloman
You made my day for suggesting that I sound like a 5 year old. I didn't insult him, he insulted me. dont worry about it.

furthermore, he insulted my intelligence as well as the intelligence of everyone on this board. he also made the mistaken assumption that everyone who does not believe never thought about it, just simply dismissed it completely with no previous knowledge.


Well hopefully on his behalf I apoligize. I know everybody has thought about it and I'm assuming that most if not people on this board are intelligent.

So that's cool.

Just because a view is the most popular does not mean it is true, right? If that was the case we would still be using stone tools.
Yes! I was just responding to how you said that you had no idea where the thought of polytheism in early Judaism came from, and I was saying that he certainly isn't alone in that opinion.

Why would the Hebrews(if not truly inspired) write so much failure on the part of their forefathers? Wouldn't they wish to cast them in a bright light emphasizing their superiority? Jacob, Abraham etc
Anthropology! However, I think this is a discussion for another thread. And I'm just too lethargic to get into that right now.

And by the way Haloman dont worry about it.
Can you seriously tell me thatThen take it back.doesn't sound very childish to you as well?

science just appeals to me more than religion does. im not a blind faith kinda guy, which religion pretty much requires.
also, even if you decide there is a god, which religion do you pick when they all claim to be right?

To say the least. Do you have a bible? If so try reading John. After you have read John check out carm.org or bible.com. To give you a clearer understanding of what the Christian faith is about.(if you don't know too much about it)
What can it hurt? Give a little bit of time perhaps and perhaps you will encounter something you never dreamed of.
Ciao :)

Yes! I was just responding to how you said that you had no idea where the thought of polytheism in early Judaism came from, and I was saying that he certainly isn't alone in that opinion.


Anthropology! However, I think this is a discussion for another thread. And I'm just too lethargic to get into that right now.


Can you seriously tell me thatdoesn't sound very childish to you as well?


No i didn't mean that. I meant ya he sounded childish but not to get all upset about people telling him that. hehe On this we agree.

Oh and he said from Genesis one. I just was pointing out from Genesis one that it is a lot more complex than that. (cos they say it in the plural automatically means its polytheism etc. Maybe i missed his point tho.)

One is turning away from symbolism. One is interpreting something a certain way. It is just an argument of semantics.
You make it sound like symbolism is god, that one can "turn away" from it. :)

In order to interpret something in a non-symbolic manner, i.e. literal, one must actively ignore any symbolism one may see. This would be "rejecting", or "turning away from" the symbolism, or pretending it's not there, or even not seeing it, or closing one's mind to it, or focusing to filter it out, or...

I'm not trying to insult you. Saying your belief is wrong isn't insulting you, it's common sense. Obviously, If I believe something, and you believ ethe opposite, I belive that what you believe is wrong. There can't be a God and not be a God at the same time. So one of us is wrong. And neither can prove that we are right. God's made his presence known to me. Maybe he hasn't to you, because you don't believe you need him. It doesn't matter to me that you don't believe in God. I don't care. I never said that "you're wrong". I said I believe you are wrong. A truth and a belief are two different things. And niether can prove it one way or the other.
That's not logical, the bolded part. You switched from "beliefs" to alleged "facts" in your arguements, so the conclusion is invalid.

i.e. "facts" are "true", and as you pointed out, a truth and a belief are two different things.

funny, to me it's meaningless.

furthermore, he insulted my intelligence as well as the intelligence of everyone on this board. he also made the mistaken assumption that everyone who does not believe never thought about it, just simply dismissed it completely with no previous knowledge.
You assume insult on behalf of everyone. Should I be insulted by this?

Yeah. I get that a lot from people like yourself. Did I offend you? No. Did I insult you? No. Then take it back.
the post that she responded to so strongly was extremely insulting; to somebody of my beliefs, wishing that i "find God some day" is like wishing that all my most deeply held convictions be washed away. it is like hoping that my culture, my values, and my morals be cast aside so that i conform to your world-view. it is extremely rude, and i was very insulted by it. however, i have encountered that particular breed of idiotic rudeness many times before, so i simply wrote you off as yet another insulting, ignorant, and self-absorbed believer.

also, the very fact that you posted that ridiculous statement confirms that you never founded this thread as an honest question; you don't actually care why people choose not to believe, because you want them to find God regardless. if you were actually open to the replies you have received then you would never have so brazenly wished that all people embrace your God-belief at the expense of all the reasons and beliefs they have taken the time to detail for you on this thread.

Oh, and I hope the 500- some people that posted on this topic find God someday ;)
Just so you know, I personally took no insult from you wishing on us something that you think is A Good Thing. It was sweet.

Just so you know, I personally took no insult from you wishing on us something that you think is A Good Thing. It was sweet.
well of course you weren't insulted...you believe in God.

well of course you weren't insulted...you believe in God.
Lol well then he/she cursed us :D

I'm not trying to insult you. Saying your belief is wrong isn't insulting you, it's common sense. Obviously, If I believe something, and you believ ethe opposite, I belive that what you believe is wrong.

sure, nothing wrong with that. i believe you are wrong, obviously. but i wouldn't say, "i wish all you people who believe in God will just forget what you believe and come over into agreement with me." i wouldn't hope for you to simply abandon your values in favor of embracing my beliefs. that's because i am not so arrogant as to assume that i know what is best for all other people.


There can't be a God and not be a God at the same time.

why not? how can you possibly assume that God would be bound by our puny concept of logic? how do you know that God would be incapable of existing in a paradox? you can't possibly make that assertion without first assuming that God is bound by the same laws as we are...and you have no grounds for making that assumption.


So one of us is wrong. And neither can prove that we are right. God's made his presence known to me. Maybe he hasn't to you, because you don't believe you need him.

or, alternatively, maybe you halucinated because of your desperate need to believe in a higher power. see how insulting it feels?


It doesn't matter to me that you don't believe in God. I don't care. I never said that "you're wrong". I said I believe you are wrong. A truth and a belief are two different things. And niether can prove it one way or the other.
you clearly DO care whether we believe in God, because you said you hoped we found God...if you didn't care, you wouldn't have said that.

That's not logical, the bolded part. You switched from "beliefs" to alleged "facts" in your arguements, so the conclusion is invalid.

i.e. "facts" are "true", and as you pointed out, a truth and a belief are two different things.

Actually his bolded part makes sense. Beleifs aren't facts, true. But they deal with facts. If one beleifs holds that something IS a fact, and another holds that something ISN'T a fact, both beleifs cannot be correct, because one thing can not be both a fact and not a fact.

It was actually one of the most refreshing uses of logic I have seen on NS for a while.

I'm interested, and bored. Why don't you believe in a higher deity? Do not say "because I just don't", give me a logical explanation as to why you don't believe.

Everyone has disbelief in higher deities. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. Have a think about why you dismiss all the other possible gods, & you'll understand why I dismiss yours...

Remove the yoke of faith in a deity from your weary necks.

To the atheists: Don't you think the hours of investment you've made in arguing that something doesn't exist could have been used usefully? Its like arguing with children that Santa Claus doesn't exist, except no one told these morons he was created to intimidate them into behaving.

To the sick cult of believers in a medieval religion that is getting in the way of humanity: The hours you've put into trying to convince people that something that doesn't exist does could've been spent doing "God's" bidding. God told me he wants you to start drinking bleach.


(morons)

Actually his bolded part makes sense. Beleifs aren't facts, true. But they deal with facts. If one beleifs holds that something IS a fact, and another holds that something ISN'T a fact, both beleifs cannot be correct, because one thing can not be both a fact and not a fact.

It was actually one of the most refreshing uses of logic I have seen on NS for a while.
As beliefs are subjective, they are unique case, so one person can believe one thing and another a different thing, and no contradiction exists.

The arguement as stated was:
1. If I believe something, and you believe the opposite, I belive that what you believe is wrong. (regarding one person's belief, true)
2. There can't be a God and not be a God at the same time. (if God is a fact, true)
3. So one of us is wrong. (nada)

If one person's beliefs hold that the existence of something is true, that has no impact on reality, on whether or not the thing exists. Your restatement of the second line as beliefs makes it no longer true: one person can hold one belief and another another belief without contradiction. As the philosophy of metaphysics says, beliefs and wishes cannot create reality.

well of course you weren't insulted...you believe in God.
No, I don't. I believe in god.

(The distinction made in most thological discussions is that God with a capital G is the Judao-Christian-Islam god).

No, I don't. I believe in god.

(The distinction made in most thological discussions is that God with a capital G is the Judao-Christian-Islam god).
forgive me while i roll my eyes.

i capitalize God whether it refers to the Judeo-Christian God or any other god...it is a sign of respect, one which i use to show believers that i understand they feel strongly about their diety. you believe in a god, so i refer to it with a capital letter just like i would if you believed in Santa Claus; it's a propper noun.

To the atheists: Don't you think the hours of investment you've made in arguing that something doesn't exist could have been used usefully?

...

To the sick cult of believers in a medieval religion that is getting in the way of humanity: The hours you've put into trying to convince people that something that doesn't exist does could've been spent doing "God's" bidding.

the time i spent playing Tony Hawk Underground today could have been spent either on something more useful or on doing "God's" bidding, too...so what? it's called a hobby. some people like to write bad poetry, some like to sky dive, some like to play videogames, some like to have debates about various subjects.

the time you spent composing a randomly insulting post on a thread you didn't have to read could have been spent doing something useful.


(morons)
childish insults are the halmark of the childish mind. just a suggestion, but you might not want to advertise your own failings so loudly.

i capitalize God whether it refers to the Judeo-Christian God or any other god...it is a sign of respect, one which i use to show believers that i understand they feel strongly about their diety. you believe in a god, so i refer to it with a capital letter just like i would if you believed in Santa Claus; it's a propper noun.
I also adopt their convention of a capital G for the Judao-Christian-Islam god out of respect. In all other instances, I refer to god with a small g, as a regular noun, an object, not a being.

I also adopt their convention of a capital G for the Judao-Christian-Islam god out of respect. In all other instances, I refer to god with a small g, as a regular noun, an object, not a being.
First of all, Judao- is not a valid prefix. It is spelled either Judeo- or Judaeo-, depending on whether you include the Latin diphthong or not. And Christian is not a proper prefix, though used as an infix here, it can only only be used as an idependent word or a suffix. What you should use here is Christo-. And you should use the adjectival form of Islam here, Islamic.

Not to mention the fact that you should really just say the Abrahamic god. Or God, whichever you prefer.

First of all, Judao- is not a valid prefix. It is spelled either Judeo- or Judaeo-, depending on whether you include the Latin diphthong or not. And Christian is not a proper prefix, though used as an infix here, it can only only be used as an idependent word or a suffix. What you should use here is Christo-. And you should use the adjectival form of Islam here, Islamic.

Not to mention the fact that you should really just say the Abrahamic god. Or God, whichever you prefer.
Thanks. That's simpler to spell, too. ;)

I'm interested, and bored. Why don't you believe in a higher deity? Do not say "because I just don't", give me a logical explanation as to why you don't believe.

There is no higher deity than me because I am one.

Dude, i know God, she's in my lit class. So of course I believe.
But really
I'm a pagan, so i do believe that there is something watching over us, i just don't think they created us, they came from us, from the Earth. The fact that something magical like created all this just doesn't work in my mind

And really, why does it matter? As long as you know what you believe in, then that's what matters. But give me solid proof there is a God, and i might listen

Thanks. That's simpler to spell, too. ;)
Yes! I have finally been thanked for a lexical rant! There is a god! ;)

And really, why does it matter? As long as you know what you believe in, then that's what matters. But give me solid proof there is a God, and i might listen
The problem is proselytism. Christo-Islamics both do this, so they feel the need to convert. I actually happen to be reading a book on Wicca right now, and it seems that Wiccans actually base everything on experience, not faith.

. I actually happen to be reading a book on Wicca right now, and it seems that Wiccans actually base everything on experience, not faith.

Yeah, thats right.

I have God here with me right now. She says that she doesn't care if people believe in her or not 'cause she and Satan randomly choose what souls go where. So don't worry bout all that believe and be a good person to go to heaven. Thats all shit. ;)

Sady enough, nearly everything can be scientifically proven these days. What hasn't been will as technology improves.

I think at best we're some other higher life form's science experiment - gone wrong or right is another question.

Sady enough, nearly everything can be scientifically proven these days. What hasn't been will as technology improves.
What? No, actually there's a lot that can't be proven. Eventually, ideally, the entire uni- or multiverse will be understood, but we will have died off long before then.

I think at best we're some other higher life form's science experiment - gone wrong or right is another question.
I think I have no idea where you'd get that idea from.

Sady enough, nearly everything can be scientifically proven these days. What hasn't been will as technology improves.

I think at best we're some other higher life form's science experiment - gone wrong or right is another question.

You should change your name to "The Twat!"

I'm interested, and bored. Why don't you believe in a higher deity? Do not say "because I just don't", give me a logical explanation as to why you don't believe.
:(
so demanding...
just once i'd like a believer to give an atheist a logical explanation and not just say "because i just do",but that will never happen.i've heard the "a book written 2000 years ago told me to do this" argument,the "but can you prove that he doesn't exist?" argument,and my personal favorite,the "BUT YOU'LL GO TO HELL IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD,YOU IDIOT!!!"argument(usually caused by spending an hour trying to convince me that there is a god).none of these have convinced me that there is a god.they have only made me more convinced that he either doesn't exist,or that he is not a god worth worshiping.and that is my reason for not believing.

i think it IS natural to believe in "god"
can you think of a culture that has existed that did not have religion?

Have you seen a culture exist without a power struggle? God is a way to control masses as well as comfort them. It's easy to beleive in God because then the rules are before you and you don't have to think and reason your own behavior and conduct.

Because I AM God, so how am I supposed to believe in something higher.

:(
so demanding...
just once i'd like a believer to give an atheist a logical explanation and not just say "because i just do",but that will never happen.i've heard the "a book written 2000 years ago told me to do this" argument,the "but can you prove that he doesn't exist?" argument,and my personal favorite,the "BUT YOU'LL GO TO HELL IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD,YOU IDIOT!!!"argument(usually caused by spending an hour trying to convince me that there is a god).none of these have convinced me that there is a god.they have only made me more convinced that he either doesn't exist,or that he is not a god worth worshiping.and that is my reason for not believing.

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

Knock yourself out.

I'm interested, and bored. Why don't you believe in a higher deity? Do not say "because I just don't", give me a logical explanation as to why you don't believe.


hmm...when i think about it, it just seems imposible..thats it really

Have you seen a culture exist without a power struggle? God is a way to control masses as well as comfort them. It's easy to beleive in God because then the rules are before you and you don't have to think and reason your own behavior and conduct.
so you think that religion only exists as a form of social control?

i think it is a natural construct of the human mind. we look for the explanation for everything, leading us to belief in the supernatural.

so you think that religion only exists as a form of social control?

i think it is a natural construct of the human mind. we look for the explanation for everything, leading us to belief in the supernatural.

its a mix i'd say
it starts as a construct of the human mind but is always exploited
religeon is a brilliant form of mass brainwashing..ook at islamic extreemists and southern hicks

so you think that religion only exists as a form of social control?

i think it is a natural construct of the human mind. we look for the explanation for everything, leading us to belief in the supernatural.

Supernatural is just a way to not bother with finding real explanations. It's not always easy to find them but chances are they're out there, we just haven't been able to figure it out yet. Supernatural solves nothing, it just allows us to brush off the work.

i think it is a natural construct of the human mind. we look for the explanation for everything, leading us to belief in the supernatural.
how does that work? if a person is actually looking for explanations they would be totally unable to accept superstition, since it doesn't explain a damn thing.

it's like if i look at a chocolate-covered cherry and think, "gee, how do they get the liquid center in the middle without leaving a mark on the outside? well, i think i will decide to believe that the chocolate cherry faeries are responsible!" i haven't explained a damn thing, i just made up an answer. it's even worse if somebody ELSE tells me that the faeries do it, because then i'm not even being creative any more.

As has been shown time and time again, when humans can't explain something they start speculating. If you look at some of the ancient religions they didn't know how to explain the rising and setting of the sun. So they said that at night a giant woman swallowed it and in the morning it came out her other end. We know for a fact that the sun rises and sets because the Earth orbits it. Just because we can explain it in rational terms doesn't mean that some great big invisible broad eats the sun every night. Only that we don't need to start making wild speculations before something can be researched completely. I think that God is just a way of human kind explaining the (at current) unexplainable and finding a way to make themselves feel better about their existance.
You could all start throwing questions at me like 'How do you explain:' but I won't have any answers. Although I believe that in anywhere between 1 and 1000 years we will be able to explain questions like that with logic and rational thought.
I must admit that theists are neccessary for the advancement of the human race just as much as atheists and so I don't hate anyone who is religious just because I think differently.

how does that work? if a person is actually looking for explanations they would be totally unable to accept superstition, since it doesn't explain a damn thing.

it's like if i look at a chocolate-covered cherry and think, "gee, how do they get the liquid center in the middle without leaving a mark on the outside? well, i think i will decide to believe that the chocolate cherry faeries are responsible!" i haven't explained a damn thing, i just made up an answer. it's even worse if somebody ELSE tells me that the faeries do it, because then i'm not even being creative any more.
ARe you impling that Chocolate Cherry Faeries don't exist?

I believe in a higher power, but hate religion.

ARe you impling that Chocolate Cherry Faeries don't exist?

How many of them can dance on the head of a pin?

ARe you impling that Chocolate Cherry Faeries don't exist?
Please say it isent so!

I saw these folks on C-span last year when they first started up. I just now looked up their site and thought other non-beleivers might be interested. I know a lot of other Americans might not know there is a political party representing non-beleivers. It's a new party, but hopefully it will grow enough in the future to have at least some small effect on our political process.

http://www.godlessamericans.org/

I'm interested, and bored. Why don't you believe in a higher deity? Do not say "because I just don't", give me a logical explanation as to why you don't believe.

Literally I'm an antagonist, but I'll put in my two cents.

I've read books that basically dispell or make the Christian god or Jewish god not so real e.g Julian Jaynes 'Origin of Conciousness'. I'm not saying there isn't a higher being. Perhaps there is something out there, but I highly doubt it cares about us in the bigger scheme of things.

How often do you think of ants?

However I could be wrong, and I would hope my life is lead by something good. This may sound weird, being that I'm not a man of faith, but I found peace with god...I know that nothing I'll ever do will comprise me being a good man. So I don't fear death, and if he's there, I'm sure he'll be welcoming me.

Let me tell you a story to make you understand.
When humanity began to think.. there were questions that they couldnt answer. Ex why does the sun rises again every time? so because they could not answer to thouse questions they invented somethin to fit their need.
And now the story.. Somewhere in Africa in the late 1960s they found a tribe that never had any contact with the civilisation. but ofcourse they had a god.
the ppl that discovered them war very surprise to find out that they worshiped something that had the shape of an airplane. Talkin to the tribe members they found out that sometime before an object that look like that felt down from the sky. Because they had no ideea what it was and because they couldnt explain it they though it was an act of somethin superior to them..and they called that god (not by that name ofcourse)
so basicly religion started as a way to answer things when they could find the answers. in time ppl with born-leader capabilites discovered that there is a simple way of manipulating ppl thru religion. and so it becamed the most important form of manipulation.
Ofcourse manipulation is not actualy a bad thing. Because 90% of ppl NEED to be lead.
I could say a lot more on this subject.. i didnt read any of the previous 39 ( :p ) pages of this thread so maybe someone else already said what i say now. or other solution to your dillema.
What is necesary to know is that there is no point in convincing ppl to become atheist.. because i have to remind you that 90% NEED to be lead.
and also having somethin to trust in makes ppls life easier to live.

Let me tell you a story to make you understand.
When humanity began to think.. there were questions that they couldnt answer. Ex why does the sun rises again every time? so because they could not answer to thouse questions they invented somethin to fit their need.
And now the story.. Somewhere in Africa in the late 1960s they found a tribe that never had any contact with the civilisation. but ofcourse they had a god.
the ppl that discovered them war very surprise to find out that they worshiped something that had the shape of an airplane. Talkin to the tribe members they found out that sometime before an object that look like that felt down from the sky. Because they had no ideea what it was and because they couldnt explain it they though it was an act of somethin superior to them..and they called that god (not by that name ofcourse)
so basicly religion started as a way to answer things when they could find the answers. in time ppl with born-leader capabilites discovered that there is a simple way of manipulating ppl thru religion. and so it becamed the most important form of manipulation.
Ofcourse manipulation is not actualy a bad thing. Because 90% of ppl NEED to be lead.
I could say a lot more on this subject.. i didnt read any of the previous 39 ( :p ) pages of this thread so maybe someone else already said what i say now. or other solution to your dillema.
What is necesary to know is that there is no point in convincing ppl to become atheist.. because i have to remind you that 90% NEED to be lead.
and also having somethin to trust in makes ppls life easier to live.

would you please provide your source on this tribe in Africa that worships a airplane. it has the smell of a untruth.

would you please provide your source on this tribe in Africa that worships a airplane. it has the smell of a untruth.
It sounds similar to the Cargo Cults (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult) of the South Pacific to me. This is a perfect example of religon filling gaps in understanding.

Literally I'm an antagonist, but I'll put in my two cents.

I have never heard of that particular denomination. Do you mean agnostic?

I have heard (not read, so I don't have a source to offer; this is hearsay) about a cargo cult that did not worship airplanes as such, but that built a facsimile landing trail and a control tower, in the hopes of attracting more airplanes to bring them gifts.

"Cargo Cults", if what is said about them is true, show religious feelings to be basically an instinct of the human mind to attribute concepts it cannot grasp to powers beyond its control. It's a protection mechanism to prevent us from going insane, like the immense resistance against coming to terms with our own errors. Do you know how difficult it is for most children, in the beginning, to say "sorry" (I remember, for my part)?

Writing down these concepts to link them to ethical values and use its power over our minds to help cement a moral code for society (because fundamentally, religious feelings have nothing to do with ethical behaviour - just look at live sacrifices) was a bright idea. But the durability of scripture has played a trick on us: Our culture evolved too fast for our religion to adapt, and now we're lost in a world of computers and spacecraft with nothing to guide us but a religious codex that considers our world to be flat. Naturally there's going to be conflict.

I'm interested, and bored. Why don't you believe in a higher deity? Do not say "because I just don't", give me a logical explanation as to why you don't believe.

I am an atheist, and just don't believe- I think that is enough to simply not be convinced.

I am a little worried by all these people who say they find science more convincing, as if it’s one or the other. I don't believe whole heartedly in science either- empirical reason doesn't stand up to reason, and reason doesn't stand up to itself (what is the logical evidence for logic being correct other than that it works cosmetically?).

What I am saying is not that these belief systems are invalid but rather that none of them are entirely convincing. I for one and happy to treat each belief system, science, religion, whatever, with an equal amount of skepticism

It sounds similar to the Cargo Cults (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult) of the South Pacific to me. This is a perfect example of religon filling gaps in understanding.

I followed your link on cargo cults and found a reference to the Ghost Dancers adn Wovoka of the late 1800's. I am unable to comment further at this time because I am at work except to say that there is more to that story. I should have some later tonight and I will comment in greater detail then.

I am an atheist, and just don't believe- I think that is enough to simply not be convinced.

I am a little worried by all these people who say they find science more convincing, as if it’s one or the other. I don't believe whole heartedly in science either- empirical reason doesn't stand up to reason, and reason doesn't stand up to itself (what is the logical evidence for logic being correct other than that it works cosmetically?).

What I am saying is not that these belief systems are invalid but rather that none of them are entirely convincing. I for one and happy to treat each belief system, science, religion, whatever, with an equal amount of skepticism
Science is not a belief system … it is a process

Those that have belief in “science” really are usually really holding a belief of current theory’s absolute correctness which should not happen

would you please provide your source on this tribe in Africa that worships a airplane. it has the smell of a untruth.

Watch the movie "The Gods Must Be Crazy", that's about something like this.

Watch the movie "The Gods Must Be Crazy", that's about something like this.
And then watch the DVD extras where it explains how much the movie does NOT represent an actual tribe or any real situation.