NationStates Jolt Archive

This is not a practical topic. Rather, it is a fundamental philosophical issue, which I have not seen properly adressed before.

Some people believe that God, or a creator, rules the universe and all things are just manifestations of that creator. To some, we are not our own voices, but are instead like instruments plucked by the hand of this creator. This means that we have a higher purpose, a higher calling. The whole point of the idea of God's will is that God is shaping us as he wants us. This viewpoint means that every accomplishment of yours, every word written, every note sung, is meerly another part in the Creator's grand play. And our lives, our joys, our loves and our failings, are all just another part of this creators ongoing story. Thus we are a work of art, and thus any one of us has no self.
The benefit of this belief is that it gives one a sense of purpose. And also, if utilized clearly, it denies hate, for all people would just be another instrument, just another brush of paint, just another work of art in the creator's masterpiece.

The problem with this is what it fundamentally denies: Pride. For if your achievements are not your own, but anothers, if your voice is not your own, but mearly an extension of God's, how can you have pride in yourself, for nothing you do is of yourself. You do not do good because you are a good person, but because the creator does good through you. You make nothing yourself, you do nothing unaided. Your very existance would be impossible alone. And truly, everything has been given to you, for even those things you have striven and suffered most to achieve, you were GIVEN the strength to achieve them. It was not your own strength, but something you were given.

And then there is the thought that we have our own choices, and our own thoughts. That we are responsible for our failings and our successes. That we can and will and do accomplish great things by our own power. That the goals we work to achieve are not some creator's but our own. And we sing with our own voices, no others, as we create our own world.

please, discuss.

discuss damnit!

I dont get it, I thought the widespread Christian doctrine was that God gave us all 'free will' but if we are shaped by God, then it is God that makes us sin or not sin, and so where is our free will, and what the heck is this 'hell' business about?

:confused:

I should note that I am NOT reffering to the Christian God, but to any god, creator, or spiritual force you might happen to believe in.

I should note that I am NOT reffering to the Christian God, but to any god, creator, or spiritual force you might happen to believe in.
I understand. This topic is particularly appealing to my ilk. I think we can have it both ways, simultaneously. We are individuals and our vices and vitues, successes and failures are our own. However, at the same time we are part of something greater, 'God' if you will, that subtly guides us. Who we grow to become is a mixture of genes and environment; interactions and upbringing. Where the seed falls, as in that famous parable, is not of our choosing.

None the less by if the christian doctrine is free will, then the what you have said cannot be applied to beliefs about the christian god...in fact I suggest that it applies to any God or deity that punishes good and/or rewards evil...

Correct me if I am wrong, but does Christianity not hold that one may choose to be an instument of God, but may also choose not to be. Therefore, retaining pride in knowing it was your own choice, but safe in the knowledge that you are acting out God's plan?

Correct me if I am wrong, but does Christianity not hold that one may choose to be an instument of God, but may also choose not to be. Therefore, retaining pride in knowing it was your own choice, but safe in the knowledge that you are acting out God's plan?
But doesn't Christian doctrine hold that God knows how all things will happen?

But doesn't Christian doctrine hold that God knows how all things will happen?
Knowing is not deciding. ;) God knows what we will do, but doesn't decide it for us.

This is not a practical topic. Rather, it is a fundamental philosophical issue, which I have not seen properly adressed before.

Some people believe that God, or a creator, rules the universe and all things are just manifestations of that creator. To some, we are not our own voices, but are instead like instruments plucked by the hand of this creator. This means that we have a higher purpose, a higher calling. The whole point of the idea of God's will is that God is shaping us as he wants us. This viewpoint means that every accomplishment of yours, every word written, every note sung, is meerly another part in the Creator's grand play. And our lives, our joys, our loves and our failings, are all just another part of this creators ongoing story. Thus we are a work of art, and thus any one of us has no self.
The benefit of this belief is that it gives one a sense of purpose. And also, if utilized clearly, it denies hate, for all people would just be another instrument, just another brush of paint, just another work of art in the creator's masterpiece.

The problem with this is what it fundamentally denies: Pride. For if your achievements are not your own, but anothers, if your voice is not your own, but mearly an extension of God's, how can you have pride in yourself, for nothing you do is of yourself. You do not do good because you are a good person, but because the creator does good through you. You make nothing yourself, you do nothing unaided. Your very existance would be impossible alone. And truly, everything has been given to you, for even those things you have striven and suffered most to achieve, you were GIVEN the strength to achieve them. It was not your own strength, but something you were given.

And then there is the thought that we have our own choices, and our own thoughts. That we are responsible for our failings and our successes. That we can and will and do accomplish great things by our own power. That the goals we work to achieve are not some creator's but our own. And we sing with our own voices, no others, as we create our own world.

please, discuss.

Ok. Here are some points to consider:

1. What you are discussing under the topic of Theism is "determinism," which has been one thread woven through most religions at one time or another. Basically it states that, since God is omnicient, man has only the illusion of choice and free will. Another thread woven through many of the same religions is the doctrine of "free will." Basically it states that, simply because God is all-knowing does not mean that man has no choices in what he does. God knows each of us and knows we have the ability to decide between alternative courses of action. There's more, but no sufficient space here to fully discuss it all.

2. Pride is an emotion many people feel for a wide variety of reasons, and can have very negative impact on not only the one who has it, but on those around her/him. It's a fairly common emotion and needs little or no encouragement to appear. Humility is another emotion. It is very rare because true humility requires that the person understand his/her actual role in the universe. It is wise to seek it.

3. You are at least partially correct about each of us having choices. However, the choices we make are impacted by the choices others make, our own genetic and developmental limitations, the realities with which we must live ( including economic, social, cultural, environmental and universal ), and the vagaries of chance. We can plan and study and work to prepare for opportunities, but we should always have an alternate plan if any of the above intervene.

Ok. Here are some points to consider:

1. What you are discussing under the topic of Theism is "determinism," which has been one thread woven through most religions at one time or another. Basically it states that, since God is omnicient, man has only the illusion of choice and free will. Another thread woven through many of the same religions is the doctrine of "free will." Basically it states that, simply because God is all-knowing does not mean that man has no choices in what he does. God knows each of us and knows we have the ability to decide between alternative courses of action. There's more, but no sufficient space here to fully discuss it all.

2. Pride is an emotion many people feel for a wide variety of reasons, and can have very negative impact on not only the one who has it, but on those around her/him. It's a fairly common emotion and needs little or no encouragement to appear. Humility is another emotion. It is very rare because true humility requires that the person understand his/her actual role in the universe. It is wise to seek it.

3. You are at least partially correct about each of us having choices. However, the choices we make are impacted by the choices others make, our own genetic and developmental limitations, the realities with which we must live ( including economic, social, cultural, environmental and universal ), and the vagaries of chance. We can plan and study and work to prepare for opportunities, but we should always have an alternate plan if any of the above intervene.

Bingo. I'm glad you agree. ;)

I feel, that if their is a creator of the universe, that they simply created us, and the universe was given to us as a place to live out our lives and be our own people, to whatever end. I do not understand why such an all powerful being would simply create us and use us as tools to interact with each other, would it not be pointless to an all powerful being? It would religate us to glorified G.I. Joe's really. I don't see a point to creation without free will as the creation of the universe does nothing to benefit such a God.

Bingo. I'm glad you agree. ;)

Thanks for the flowers, mate! G'day! :)

I feel, that if their is a creator of the universe, that they simply created us, and the universe was given to us as a place to live out our lives and be our own people, to whatever end. I do not understand why such an all powerful being would simply create us and use us as tools to interact with each other, would it not be pointless to an all powerful being? It would religate us to glorified G.I. Joe's really. I don't see a point to creation without free will as the creation of the universe does nothing to benefit such a God.

Could a man create a painting to please himself? Then why couldn't a god create a universe to please himself?

I feel, that if their is a creator of the universe, that they simply created us, and the universe was given to us as a place to live out our lives and be our own people, to whatever end. I do not understand why such an all powerful being would simply create us and use us as tools to interact with each other, would it not be pointless to an all powerful being? It would religate us to glorified G.I. Joe's really. I don't see a point to creation without free will as the creation of the universe does nothing to benefit such a God.
Maybe God wanted to see how we would develop?

Thanks for the flowers, mate! G'day!
Flowers? :confused:
Yeah, G'day to you too. :)

This is why I'm an existentialist. I don't believe in purpose or determinism.

This is why I'm an existentialist. I don't believe in purpose or determinism.
It's important to take responsibility for one's own actions, so there's nothing wrong with that.

Think of a play in which the playwrite had an idea of the plotline, and a character in mind for each of the actors, but no absolute and set script.

Said playwrite knows each of the possible actions of each of the actors, and how said actions will affect the outcome and the options of the other actors.

As such, each of the actors is set to make their own decisions about the character they play/the actions they take, but the play and actors are all put into their original place by the playwrite.

It's important to take responsibility for one's own actions, so there's nothing wrong with that.

Exactly. Determinism in all its forms leads to irresponsibility.

Think of a play in which the playwrite had an idea of the plotline, and a character in mind for each of the actors, but no absolute and set script.

Said playwrite knows each of the possible actions of each of the actors, and how said actions will affect the outcome and the options of the other actors.

As such, each of the actors is set to make their own decisions about the character they play/the actions they take, but the play and actors are all put into their original place by the playwrite.
That's a good analogy

Exactly. Determinism in all its forms leads to irresponsibility.
Well, I'm not sure about that. Many advocates of determinism do use it as an excuse, just like many Christians sin on whim knowing that they can repent and be excused. But not all do.

I typed a better reply than this but then there was a database error when I posted it, arrrgghh!
Basically though, why would God* create us without free will? If it was for his own entertainment, wouldn't us having free will be even more entertaining? What would be the point of creating us if we were all like robots to God? It would be no benefit to God would it?



* = because all-powerful creator takes too long to type, i'm not citing any particular God or THE God or whatever :)

I typed a better reply than this but then there was a database error when I posted it, arrrgghh!
Basically though, why would God* create us without free will? If it was for his own entertainment, wouldn't us having free will be even more entertaining? What would be the point of creating us if we were all like robots to God? It would be no benefit to God would it?



* = because all-powerful creator takes too long to type, i'm not citing any particular God or THE God or whatever :)
God works in mysterious ways. ;) Seriously though, I agree.

Flowers? :confused:
Yeah, G'day to you too. :)

LOL! I was betting with myself that you'd not heard that one. It's American slang for "Thank you for the nice things you just said." :D

LOL! I was betting with myself that you'd not heard that one. It's American slang for "Thank you for the nice things you just said." :D
Fair dinkum, mate? No worries. You learn something new every day. (I'd think up a whole lot of aussie slang, but I cant think of any at the moment. LOL!)

Fair dinkum, mate? No worries. You learn something new every day. (I'd think up a whole lot of aussie slang, but I cant think of any at the moment. LOL!)

Someday we'll have to start a thread about that: Share your slang and tell us what it means! :D

Someday we'll have to start a thread about that: Share your slang and tell us what it means! :D
Now there's a thought. :D