NationStates Jolt Archive

Many people blame Islam and all Muslims for the actions of Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda.

Should we then equally blame Christianity for the actions of Adolph Hitler? Was Hitler a Christian? Well, at least as much a Christian as bin Laden is a Muslim.

In Hitler’s own words:

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." (1941, told to General Gerhart Engel)

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without religious foundation is built on air; consequently all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . ." (April 26, 1933, on signing the Nazi-Vatican Concordat)

"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out." (October 24, 1933, in a speech in Berlin)

“My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter…In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison.

Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.” (a speech delivered April 12, 1922, published in "My New Order")

Do the same people who condemn Islam for the actions of the most extreme Muslims apply the same standard to Christianity and Christians?

Hitler was not a Christian. It was Hitler who said, "One is either a German or a Christian. You cannot be both. The religions are all the same, no matter what they call themselves. They have no future- certainly none for the Germans. Fascism, if it likes, may come to terms with the Church. So shall I. Why not? That won't prevent me from tearing up Christianity root and branch- and annihilating it in Germany."

Quoted in Therefore, Stand by Wilbur M. Smith.

"Can Christianity be blamed for Hitler?"

No, but after reading the kind of posts you make, I'm sure you'll try. :rolleyes:

Hitler was not a Christian, but a pagan. He believed he was a reincarnated teutonic God, and experimented with the occult. He sometimes said he was Catholic to gain support, but he really wasn't. In fact he secretly critisized Spain and Italy for following Catholicism and said they were fools to do so. And he tried to have the Pope kidnapped.

And I should add that Catholics were among the groups Hitler persecuted.

Hitler was not a Christian, but a pagan.

That's correct. Read, for example, Satan and Swastika: The Occult and the Nazi Party by Francis King.

Hitler was not a Christian. It was Hitler who said, "One is either a German or a Christian. You cannot be both. The religions are all the same, no matter what they call themselves. They have no future- certainly none for the Germans. Fascism, if it likes, may come to terms with the Church. So shall I. Why not? That won't prevent me from tearing up Christianity root and branch- and annihilating it in Germany."

Quoted in Therefore, Stand by Wilbur M. Smith.

In addition to the quotes above:

"For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." - April 12, 1922

"I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." - Mein Kampf

"This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief." - Mein Kampf

"We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit ... " - The Speeches of Adolph Hitler, 1922-1939

"National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity . . ." - In a speech at Koblenz, August 26, 1934

Sounds like the words of a man who at least thought of himself as a Christian.

In addition to the quotes above:

"For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." - April 12, 1922

"I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." - Mein Kampf

"This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief." - Mein Kampf

"We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit ... " - The Speeches of Adolph Hitler, 1922-1939

"National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity . . ." - In a speech at Koblenz, August 26, 1934

Sounds like the words of a man who at least thought of himself as a Christian.

Thanks for the sources. That's one of the things I like about you, Ogiek. You: a)Back up what you say; b)Never flame

For that, you are among the people in NS- hell, in the world- that I respect most. And no, I'm not being sarcastic.

"Can Christianity be blamed for Hitler?"

No, but after reading the kind of posts you make, I'm sure you'll try. :rolleyes:

Actually, no. But neither would I attempt to blame all Muslims for Osama bin Laden, which happens with alarming frequency in this forum and this nation.

I would blame the evils of Nationalism way before Christianity.

Stupid Germans. Lol.

But the two seem somewhat simliar, though Bin Laden believes himself to be a true muslim, while I'm sure Hitler didn't give any sort of metaphoric shit.

But vast vast majority of members disapprove of both, so please, stop the flame. :rolleyes:

In a way we can. But we can also associate anything with anyone and vice versa. There is no real proof Hitler was actually a real Christian, or just trying to make a show. Knowing that the entire world thought he was an abomination, it wouldn't surprise me that Hitler would make himself look like a Christian to destroy Christianity's reputation. Osama on the other hand, I find he is a muslim and it's not surpirsing that he can when the Quaran allows violence if in defense of Islam. But that he is a true muslim is bs, so blaming Islam for him is silly, and persecuting all Muslims because of him is stupid.

The real thing we need to blame are the angels, they were the ones who saved his arse in WWI. He says himself that they told him to move, only moments before a shell hit where he had been sitting and that they visited him throughout his life.

Actually, no. But neither would I attempt to blame all Muslims for Osama bin Laden, which happens with alarming frequency in this forum and this nation.

A fact I find offensive and disheartening. The overwhelmingly vast majority of Muslims are peace-loving, harmless people.

Thanks for the sources. That's one of the things I like about you, Ogiek. You: a)Back up what you say; b)Never flame

For that, you are among the people in NS- hell, in the world- that I respect most. And no, I'm not being sarcastic.

Thank you. I'm flattered.

Thank you. I'm flattered.

No problem. :)

Meh, he was just doing the same thing Pres. Bush is currently doing. Neither of are true Christians. So you are right... same thing Bin Laden was doing with the Muslim faith.

I read that Hitler's anti-semitic views were inspired by a catholic lecturer he said, so there is a bit of blame on the catholic church.

I don't honestly think Christianity can be blamed for Hitler. Alot of his final solution came from ideas at the time that popularized the idea of a supreme Aryan race. That combined with the rapid antisemitism that abound in Germany, not to mention alot of Europe at the time, made them easy targets for Germany's defeat in WWI along with the severe depression that followed. I think a healthy dose insanity helped him carry out his plans, but I can't honestly see a strong connection with him and christianity.

I don't honestly think Christianity can be blamed for Hitler. Alot of his final solution came from ideas at the time that popularized the idea of a supreme Aryan race. That combined with the rapid antisemitism that abound in Germany, not to mention alot of Europe at the time, made them easy targets for Germany's defeat in WWI along with the severe depression that followed. I think a healthy dose insanity helped him carry out his plans, but I can't honestly see a strong connection with him and christianity.

Unfortunately, much, if not most, of that anti-semitism was perpetuated and fostered by centuries of Church sponsored anti-Jewish propaganda and Catholic and Protestant dogma.

I read that Hitler's anti-semitic views were inspired by a catholic lecturer he said, so there is a bit of blame on the catholic church.


Actually they came from Martin Luther founder of the protestant reformation. Nonetheless Hitler was not a Catholic or Protestant but a pagan.

Actually they came from Martin Luther founder of the protestant reformation. Nonetheless Hitler was not a Catholic or Protestant but a pagan.

He didn't have to be catholic to agree with a catholic lecturer.

Actually they came from Martin Luther founder of the protestant reformation. Nonetheless Hitler was not a Catholic or Protestant but a pagan.

Hitler was baptized a Catholic, and claimed to have remained one all his life ("I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." - 1941, told to General Gerhart Engel). How do you discount the many statements Hitler made claiming to be a Christian?

He didn't have to be catholic to agree with a catholic lecturer.



I doubt thats where he heard it from.

Hitler was baptized a Catholic, and claimed to have remained one all his life ("I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." - 1941, told to General Gerhart Engel). How do you discount the many statements Hitler made claiming to be a Christian?



Maybe because he frequently critisized his allies in secret for following Catholicism, tried to have the Pope kidnapped, put Christians in concentration camps, and said you can't be a Christian and a German. Also he was obsessed with the occult, and believed he was a God. Thats heresy.

A fact I find offensive and disheartening. The overwhelmingly vast majority of Muslims are peace-loving, harmless people.

It's not an overwhelmingly vast majority.
That's like saying the OVERWHELIMINGLY VAST MAJORITY actually voted for Bush during last year's election.
Not that I have anything against muslims, but Islam is a violent religion and it should be recognized as one without all this pansiness of trying to be polite/politcally correct.

slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare to ambush them. But if they repent and establish [Islamic] worship...their way is free. Lo! Allah is forgiving and Merciful. (Quran; Surah 9:5)


Peace-loving? :(

slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare to ambush them. But if they repent and establish [Islamic] worship...their way is free. Lo! Allah is forgiving and Merciful. (Quran; Surah 9:5)

Ah, I never read the Quaran/Koran/howeverthehellyouspellit, so I wouldn't know. :confused:

It's not an overwhelmingly vast majority.
That's like saying the OVERWHELIMINGLY VAST MAJORITY actually voted for Bush during last year's election.
Not that I have anything against muslims, but Islam is a violent religion and it should be recognized as one without all this pansiness of trying to be polite/politcally correct.

slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare to ambush them. But if they repent and establish [Islamic] worship...their way is free. Lo! Allah is forgiving and Merciful. (Quran; Surah 9:5)


Peace-loving? :(

All righty then. But let's be even handed when judging the violence of religions:

“He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed” (Exodus 22:20).

“That whosoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman” (2 Chronicles 15:13).

“But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me” (Luke 19:27).

“Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up” (Hosea 13:16). Whoa!

“And when the people complained, it displeased the Lord: and the Lord heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the Lord burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp” (Numbers 11:1).

Just a quick sampling.

Can the rise of gun-control be attributed to Hitler? Yes, yes it can.

That settles it the vast majority of Christians are clininc bombing lunatics who want to drink your blood.

Can the rise of gun-control be attributed to Hitler? Yes, yes it can.

No, that is an oft repeated myth.

The German Weapons Law (Waffengesetz) of March 18, 1938, passed by the Nazis, actually relaxed the gun law passed by the Weimar government in 1928 (there was no Right to Arms in the Constitution of 1919). Any German citizen without a criminal record was allowed to purchase and carry handguns.

Unfortunately, the Nazi government had little to fear from an armed public. It was actually the American occupying army in 1946 who collected guns from the German people.

Would that they had used those guns against Hitler and his gang, but alas, most Germans supported the fascists.

No, that is an oft repeated myth.

German Weapons Law (Waffengesetz) of March 18, 1938, passed by the Nazis, actually relaxed the gun law passed by the Weimar government. Any German citizen without a criminal record was allowed to purchase and carry handguns.

Unfortunately, the Nazi government had little to fear from an armed public. It was actually the American occupying army in 1946 who collected guns from the German people.

Would that they had used those guns against Hitler and his gang, but alas, most Germans supported the fascists.


He sent us an extract from the record of hearings held a few months prior to the enactment of GCA '68. At the end of June 1968, the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee to investigate Juvenile Delinquency -- chaired by Thomas J. Dodd (D-CT) -- held hearings on bills: (1) "To Require the Registration of Firearms" (S.3604). (2) "To Disarm Lawless Persons" (S.3634) and (3) "To Provide for the Establishment of a National Firearms Registry" (S.3637), among others.

U.S. Representative John Dingell (D-MI) testified at these Senate hearings on "gun control". Senator Joseph D. Tydings (D-MD) chaired some of these hearings, in Dodd's absence.

Rep. Dingell expressed concern that if firearms registration were required, it might lead to confiscation of firearms, as had happened in Nazi Germany. Tydings angrily accused Rep. Dingell of using "scare tactics":

"Are you inferring that our system here, gun registration or licensing, would in any way be comparable to the Nazi regime in Germany, where they had a secret police, and a complete takeover?"

Rep. Dingell backed away.

(Hearings before the Subcommittee to Investigate Juvenile Delinquency of the Committee on the Judiciary, 90th Congress, 2nd Session, June 26, 27 and 28 and July 8, 9 and 10. 1968, pp. 479-80, 505-6 cited as Subcommittee Hearings.)

Tydings later inserted into the hearing record various documents, "concerning the history of Nazism and gun confiscation."

Exhibit No. 62 (see reproduction) is fascinating. This letter -- dated July 12, 1968 -- is to Subcommittee Chairman Dodd from Lewis C. Coffin, Law Librarian at the Library of Congress. Coffin wrote:


" ... we are enclosing herewith a translation of the Law on Weapons of March 18, 1938, prepared by Dr. William Solyom-Fekete of [the European Law Division -- ed.] as well as the Xerox of the original German text which you supplied" (Subcommittee Hearings, p. 489, emphasis added).


This letter makes it public knowledge that at the end of June 1968 -- 4 months before GCA '68 was enacted -- Senator Thomas J. Dodd, now deceased, personally owned a copy of the original German text of the Nazi Weapons Law.

Why did Dodd own the original German text of any Nazi law? Why did he make known that he owned it?

The Library of Congress then had (and still has) the 'Reichsgesetzblatt' in its collection. The Library of Congress translator, Dr. Solyom-Fekete, could easily have used the Library of Congress' own copy.

Any member of Congress who wanted to read the Nazi Weapons Law need only have asked for it to be produced from the shelves of the Library of Congress and for it to be translated by Library of Congress experts. Why should any member of Congress ever have owned the original German text of the Nazi Weapons Law?

Without access to Tom Dodd's personal papers, archived under his heirs' control, we unfortunately cannot offer definite answers.

Dodd could have acquired the German text of the Nazi Weapons Law during his time at Nuremberg. But he had no need to do so.

Dodd did not personally handle the prosecution of Nazi Interior Minister Wilhelm Frick, who signed the Nazi Weapons Law. The case against Frick was presented by Robert M.W. Kempner, Assistant Trial Counsel for the United States (see 'Trial of the Major War Criminals before the International Military Tribunal,' cited as TMWC, Vol. V, pp. 352-67, Nuremberg, Germany, 1947).

Nor should the Nazi Weapons Law otherwise have come to Dodd's attention. The Nazi Weapons Law was not used as evidence against Frick (see Kempner's speech, TMWC, V, pp. 352-67 and 'Index of Laws, Decrees, Orders, Directives, and the Administration of Justice in Nazi Germany and Nazi Dominated Countries', TMWC, Vol. XXIII, pp. 430-33). The Nazi Weapons Law is not listed among documents submitted as evidence to the Tribunal by the American prosecutors (see Vol. XXIV, pp. 98-169).

The prosecutors at Nuremberg doubtless knew of the Nazi Weapons Law. They probably saw it in the 'Reichsgesetzblatt.' On the same day that Nazi Interior Minister Frick signed the Weapons Law, March 18, 1938, he signed another law governing security measures in newly annexed Austria. This law concerning Austria appeared in the 'Reichsgesetzblatt' -- directly in front of the Weapons Law -- and was introduced into evidence at Nuremberg ('Reichsgesetzblatt' 1938, I, p. 262; the Nazi Weapons Law was published in the same volume, p. 265; see TMWC, Vol. V, p.358 for reference to law concerning Austria).

Thus, the Nazi Weapons Law appeared to have no historical merit at Nuremberg and should not have attracted anyone's notice, certainly not to the extent of causing anyone to want to keep a copy of it as a separate document.

If Dodd got his copy of the original German text of the Nazi Weapons Law during his time at Nuremberg, it likely was part of a collection of documents, for example, issues of the 'Reichsgesetzblatt'.

But if he acquired the original German text of the Nazi Weapons Law after his service at Nuremberg, he must have done so for a very specific reason. The Nazi Weapons Law plainly did not figure at Nuremberg.

We may safely conclude it had little, if any, interest for those interested in the history of the Nazis' rise to power. For example, the Nazi Weapons Law is not mentioned at all in William L. Shirer's very thorough study of Nazi Germany, 'The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich' (Simon and Schuster, New York, 1950).

At the hearings held by Dodd's subcommittee at the end of June 1968, Rep. Dingell had objected to the firearms registration provision then being discussed. Dodd may have offered his copy of the Nazi Weapons Law to show that the specific proposal did not resemble anything in the Nazi law.

He may not have realized that he was revealing a broader truth; that the whole fabric of GCA '68 was based on the Nazi Weapons Law, even if the specific registration proposal was not so based.

Alternatively, Dodd may not have cared whether or not anyone knew that he had the German text of the Nazi Weapons Law. He doubtless knew that months would pass before the hearing record was printed and so generally available for scrutiny. Thus, even if anyone then noticed the parallels between the two laws, the bill would already have become law.

Rep. Dingell does not appear to have pursued the matter: the firearms registration provision was not included in GCA '68. The Congress was stampeded on "gun control" by public enthusiasm. Martin Luther King had been murdered on April 4, 1968, and Robert F. Kennedy had been murdered on June 6, 1968.

We are not the first to have seen this hearing record. But we appear to be the first to have recognized its importance. This hearing record suggests strongly that the late Senator Thomas J. Dodd (D-CT) himself implanted the Nazi Weapons Law into American law, or, at very least, helped others to do so.

Now you know the ugly truth about the roots of GCA '68. But you need to see -- with your own eyes -- the hard evidence of the Nazi roots of "gun control" in America presented in "Gun Control": Gateway to Tyranny.

Bite me. The 1928 law started it, but the 1938 law is what the first major gun control laws in this country were based on. The exception being the owning of fully automatic firearms being owned by the public.

Bite me. The 1928 law started it, but the 1938 law is what the first major gun control laws in this country were based on. The exception being the owning of fully automatic firearms being owned by the public.

Well, I don't think I will bite you. Nor will I cite 1968 AMERICAN Senate testimony. Instead let's look at what the 1938 GERMAN Weapons Law actually did.

The highlights (the entire law is 12 pages long):

Handguns may be sold or purchased only on submission of a Weapons Acquisition Permit (Waffenerwerbschein), which must be used within one year from the date of issue. Muzzle-loading handguns are exempted from the permit requirement.

Holders of a permit to carry weapons (Waffenschein) or of a hunting license do not need a Weapons Acquisition Permit in order to acquire a handgun.

A hunting license authorizes its bearer to carry hunting weapons and handguns.

Firearms and ammunition, as well as swords and knives, may not be sold to minors under the age of 18 years.

Whoever carries a firearm outside of his dwelling, his place of employment, his place of business, or his fenced property must have on his person a Weapons Permit (Waffenschein). A permit is not required, however, for carrying a firearm for use at a police-approved shooting range.

A permit to acquire a handgun or to carry firearms may only be issued to persons whose trustworthiness is not in question and who can show a need for a permit. In particular, a permit may not be issued to:

- persons under the age of 18 years;

- legally incompetent or mentally retarded persons;

- Gypsies or vagabonds;

- persons under mandatory police supervision (i.e., on parole) or otherwise temporarily without civil rights;

- persons convicted of treason or high treason or known to be engaged in activities hostile to the state;

- persons who for assault, trespass, a breach of the peace, resistance to authority, a criminal offense or misdemeanor, or a hunting or fishing violation, were legally sentenced to a term of imprisonment of more than two weeks, if three years have not passed since the term of imprisonment.

So, yes a permit (Waffenerwerbschein) was required, but Germans could and did carry guns. However, the 1938 law actually lifted restrictions from the previous law enacted by the Weimar government.

Well, I don't think I will bite you. Nor will I cite 1868 AMERICAN Senate testimony. Instead let's look at what the 1938 GERMAN Weapons Law actually did.

The highlights (the entire law is 12 pages long):

Handguns may be sold or purchased only on submission of a Weapons Acquisition Permit (Waffenerwerbschein), which must be used within one year from the date of issue. Muzzle-loading handguns are exempted from the permit requirement.

Holders of a permit to carry weapons (Waffenschein) or of a hunting license do not need a Weapons Acquisition Permit in order to acquire a handgun.

A hunting license authorizes its bearer to carry hunting weapons and handguns.

Firearms and ammunition, as well as swords and knives, may not be sold to minors under the age of 18 years.

Whoever carries a firearm outside of his dwelling, his place of employment, his place of business, or his fenced property must have on his person a Weapons Permit (Waffenschein). A permit is not required, however, for carrying a firearm for use at a police-approved shooting range.

A permit to acquire a handgun or to carry firearms may only be issued to persons whose trustworthiness is not in question and who can show a need for a permit. In particular, a permit may not be issued to:

- Gypsies or vagabonds;

- persons under mandatory police supervision (i.e., on parole) or otherwise temporarily without civil rights;

- persons known to be engaged in activities hostile to the state

So, yes a permit (Waffenerwerbschein) was required, but Germans could and did carry guns. However, the 1938 law actually lifted restrictions from the previous law enacted by the Weimar government.
The things bolded in particular mean they can basically ban guns to whomever they want, the same situation which can currently be found in New York, Chicago, and L.A. Guess which cities have the highest murder rates.

The things bolded in particular mean they can basically ban guns to whomever they want, the same situation which can currently be found in New York, Chicago, and L.A. Guess which cities have the highest murder rates.

The requirements of "trustworthiness" when obtaining a permit were carried over from the 1928 law: they were not formulated by the Nazis. These requirements were interpreted liberally: a person who did not fall into one of the prohibited categories was considered trustworthy.

The gun controls passed by the Wiemar government in 1928 were intended to disarm private armies, such as the Nazi SA (aka "the brownshirts"). Gun control was not initiated by or for the Nazis. It was passed by Germany’s democratic government in order to keep them, or others of the same ilk such as the Communists, from executing a revolution against the lawful government.

By 1938 the Nazis were in power and had no need of gun control. The law we are referring to actually eased regulations passed by the previous government (for example, long guns were exempted from the requirement for a purchase permit; the legal age for gun ownership was lowered from 20 to 18 years; and the period of validity of a permit to carry weapons was extended from one to three years).

As I said before the Nazis and their policies were, unfortunately, widely popular among the German people.

You obviously have an agenda, which is to link gun control to Nazism and, by implication, gun control advocates to Nazis.

On the other hand, as a historian, I have no agenda other than historical accuracy. You wish to bend facts to fit your ideology. Your views on gun control are not of interest to me, however your understanding of history, at least in this case, is flawed.

Ogiek, have you ever heard of "The big lie." Hitler was a master of perpetuating propagandistic images of himself and the Nazis as Christians. The only reason he made these statements was to win support of the large Catholic and Protestant population of Germany.

Christianity was not responsible for Hitler. The western allies of WWI were responsible for Hitler. Without the economic incapacitation following the first would war, Hitler would have remained the leader of a small, insignifigant groups of radicals.

All righty then. But let's be even handed when judging the violence of religions:

“He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed” (Exodus 22:20).

“That whosoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman” (2 Chronicles 15:13).

“But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me” (Luke 19:27).

“Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up” (Hosea 13:16). Whoa!

“And when the people complained, it displeased the Lord: and the Lord heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the Lord burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp” (Numbers 11:1).

Just a quick sampling.

But those are all from the Old Testament which is the basis of Islam, Judaism and Christianity so that's not the right place to get your "samplings".

The things bolded in particular mean they can basically ban guns to whomever they want, the same situation which can currently be found in New York, Chicago, and L.A. Guess which cities have the highest murder rates.

I'm not going to guess. I'm going to go by the FBI Uniform Crime Index. And according to the nation's top law enforcement agency the cities with the highest murder rate in 2002 were:

1. New Orleans
2. St. Louis
3. Detroit
4. Washington D.C.
5. Baltimore
6. Atlanta

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004902.html

Also, the region of the country with the highest murder rate is the South, accounting for 43% of all the nation's murders (no doubt due to the strict gun laws in that liberal part of the county). By the way, the Northeast has the lowest murder rate in the nation.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_02/html/web/offreported/02-nmurder03.html

Worst large cities (more than 500,000) for all types of crime? Again, hotbeds of liberalism:

1. Tucson, AZ
2. Memphis, TN
3. Miami, FL
4. Phoenix-Mesa, AZ
5. Little Rock-North Little Rock, AR

The best large cities (again over 500,000) in terms of low crime rates are:

1. Nassau-Suffolk, NY
2. Middlesex-Somerset-Hunterdon, NJ
3. Ventura, CA
4. Monmouth-Ocean, NJ
5. Bergen-Passaic, NJ

http://houseandhome.msn.com/Move/BestandWorstCitiesforCrime.aspx

Hope that puts your mind at ease.

But those are all from the Old Testament which is the basis of Islam, Judaism and Christianity so that's not the right place to get your "samplings".

They moved Luke to the Old Testament? And when exactly did Christians decide to drop the Old Testament from the Bible?

-snip- Right here is where you're making a logical fallacy, you are equating gun ownership to murder rates. What you should really look at is economic situations in the top 5 and bottom five, and I'd suspect you'd find a far more plausible reason.

Right here is where you're making a logical fallacy, you are equating gun ownership to murder rates. What you should really look at is economic situations in the top 5 and bottom five, and I'd suspect you'd find a far more plausible reason.

I am doing no such thing. "Armed Bookworm" made the statement that NYC, Chicago and LA have the strictest gun laws and as a result the highest crime rates.

I have no idea what the guns laws are around the country, however, the facts I posted about the crime rates of various cities and regions come from the FBI. I make no judgement why those crime rates are what they are.

Do the same people who condemn Islam for the actions of the most extreme Muslims apply the same standard to Christianity and Christians?
Let's not bullshit. Both religion's hands are dripping blood. Christianity may be responsible for even more deaths than Islam throughout history.

The requirements of "trustworthiness" when obtaining a permit were carried over from the 1928 law: they were not formulated by the Nazis. These requirements were interpreted liberally: a person who did not fall into one of the prohibited categories was considered trustworthy.
The proper thing to say here would be that under the Weimar govt. they were interpreted liberally, but one the Nazi's gained control they became iterpreted iunder quite a different light, and as for linking gun control advocates to Nazi's, not really. Linking them to various collectivist regimes on the other hand, yes. And as a historian you should know that there is no real such thing as objective in most situations.

The proper thing to say here would be that under the Weimar govt. they were interpreted liberally, but one the Nazi's gained control they became iterpreted iunder quite a different light, and as for linking gun control advocates to Nazi's, not really. Linking them to various collectivist regimes on the other hand, yes. And as a historian you should know that there is no real such thing as objective in most situations.

Hmm, okay.

Your statement about how the law was interpreted is NOT how it worked and there is certainly a vast difference between subjective interpretation of the meaning of objective facts, and just making something up to suit your ideological agenda (something Nazis had no qualms about).

However, I put the information out there. You can chose to believe it or not. Or you can do your own research. The 1928 law passed by the Weimar Republic was called the Gesetz über Schußwaffen und Munition (Law on Firearms and Ammunition). The Nazi law, enacted by Hitler's decree on March 18, 1938, was called the Waffengesetz (Weapons Law).

By the way, in 1945 General Eisenhower ordered all privately owned firearms in the American occupation zone of Germany confiscated, and Germans were required to hand in their shotguns, rifles and handguns.

They moved Luke to the Old Testament? And when exactly did Christians decide to drop the Old Testament from the Bible?
Sorry missed that one :(
But my point is Christianity follows the "teachings"/whatnot of the New Testament...

But I don't hear any priest telling his worshippers to go out and kill all the non-believers.
Not that Christianity wasn't a blood letting body at a few points in its history, but it doesn't YEARN for the death of others...
I dunno, I can't come to terms with the idea of homicidal/suicidal martyrdom as part of any peace-loving religion.

blaming christianity for hitler would make my day, but it's more of a mix of allsorts like nietzsche (hitler took some liberties with nietzsche's writing though, as anyone who's seen ricky gervais' politics show will tell you!) and wagner. hitler was just one of those lunatics who try to blame their own failures on everyone else and was able to pick up on popular anti-semitism (daniel goldhagen goes further and says that anti-semitism was rife in all of germany in 'Hitler's Willing Executioners', but even those who don't completely criticise his conclusions accuse him of drawing sloppy generalisations).

Until hitler invaded the rest of czechoslovakia (not ethnically german) after the sudetenland in 1938 his (foreign) policies could have been argued to be simply traditionally german nationalist; pan-germanism was a popular idea in the late 19th century, but bismarck was against it.

invading czechoslovakia brings you into the lebensraum for the arians part, which is when you can safely say he was being a total ****. all the racial stuff, where's that in the bible (or nietzsche's writings for that matter, but nietzsche's still a misogynist twat)? like i said, i'd love to blame christians, but unless you actually believe in papal infallability (pope pius x or xi supported the fascists in italy, thus the nazis as well) then you'd best look at the more punitive aspects of Treaty of Versailles or try reading mein kampf (good luck! i've not read it, but my mate says it's repetitive has little basis in reality and is repetitive as fuck)

guess what my a-level exam was about yesterday?

No.It can't be blamed for hitler. Hitler was insane, he was even part jew, which is aqward, considering the holocaust he was responsible for. Some people even belive he was gay.

Meh, he was just doing the same thing Pres. Bush is currently doing. Neither of are true Christians. So you are right... same thing Bin Laden was doing with the Muslim faith.

Taking drugs is cool. I think that guy is stupid

Many people blame Islam and all Muslims for the actions of Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda.

Should we then equally blame Christianity for the actions of Adolph Hitler? Was Hitler a Christian? Well, at least as much a Christian as bin Laden is a Muslim.

In Hitler’s own words:

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." (1941, told to General Gerhart Engel)

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without religious foundation is built on air; consequently all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . ." (April 26, 1933, on signing the Nazi-Vatican Concordat)

"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out." (October 24, 1933, in a speech in Berlin)

“My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter…In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison.

Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.” (a speech delivered April 12, 1922, published in "My New Order")

Do the same people who condemn Islam for the actions of the most extreme Muslims apply the same standard to Christianity and Christians?


Hitler wasn't a christian and you know it, talk about pathetic

Hitler was a catholic. One can loathe the fact and pretend it isn't so. But he was very much a catholic. He's no more of a representative of catholics then say... Torquemada was. (Look it up if you don't know who it is.) But he certainly considered himself a christian.

The pagan one was Hess, not Hitler.

I don't think Christianity can be blamed for Hitler, but it was an influence on him. Religion historically tends to cause alot of violence. Another fact one can loathe and pretend isn't so. But the crusades, the inquisition, the schism related wars and what not more all began over religion. And even in many wars where religion wasn't the cause it certainly had alot of influence.

Blaming christianity for Hitler as a sole reason is silly. But it nonetheless had influence on him. And saying its not so is just sticking ones head in the sand if you ask me.

i dont think crisianty can be blamed for hitler because hitler was insane. though he used it as an exuse in a lot of places. though christianty can be atributited to a lot of horrible things

Hitler was a catholic. One can loathe the fact and pretend it isn't so. But he was very much a catholic. He's no more of a representative of catholics then say... Torquemada was. (Look it up if you don't know who it is.) But he certainly considered himself a christian.

The pagan one was Hess, not Hitler.

I don't think Christianity can be blamed for Hitler, but it was an influence on him. Religion historically tends to cause alot of violence. Another fact one can loathe and pretend isn't so. But the crusades, the inquisition, the schism related wars and what not more all began over religion. And even in many wars where religion wasn't the cause it certainly had alot of influence.

Blaming christianity for Hitler as a sole reason is silly. But it nonetheless had influence on him. And saying its not so is just sticking ones head in the sand if you ask me.

I think the question is more, "Can Hitler be blamed for Christianity?" I'm part of a small group of people in South USA, who believe there is evidence to suggest that Hitler founded the religion. He needed to blame a religion for his atroscities, so using the legend of Santa Claus in order to convince people, he fabricated the religion, which he called "christianity". He then quite succesfully convinced a number of people that it was over 2000 years old. After all, there is know reason, and know evidence to support the belief that "christianity" is more than 30 years old.

I think the question is more, "Can Hitler be blamed for Christianity?" I'm part of a small group of people in South USA, who believe there is evidence to suggest that Hitler founded the religion. He needed to blame a religion for his atroscities, so using the legend of Santa Claus in order to convince people, he fabricated the religion, which he called "christianity". He then quite succesfully convinced a number of people that it was over 2000 years old. After all, there is know reason, and know evidence to support the belief that "christianity" is more than 30 years old.

So how do you people explain the Gutenburg Bible, the Dead sea scrolls, the fact that records of Christianity can be found all throught the world long before the 20th Century. I am not being patronising, I am genuinely curious.

So how do you people explain the Gutenburg Bible, the Dead sea scrolls, the fact that records of Christianity can be found all throught the world long before the 20th Century. I am not being patronising, I am genuinely curious.
Neo Cannen! You're the homosexual from "Is Homosexuality a sin?".

I'm not being patronising, but contrary to popular belief, Hitler wasn't actually stupid. Insane yes, but not stupid. He came up with all that stuff and got inspiration from it in order to create this religion.

Hitler was...even part jew...

There is a remote possibility that Hitler's grandfather was Jewish. Hitler's father, Alois, was registered as an illegitimate child with no father. Alois' mother worked in the home of a wealthy Jew and there is some chance a son in that household got the woman (i.e., Hitler's grandmother) pregnant.

Adolf Hitler was not Jewish.

Some people even belive he was gay.

Read Pink Swastika: Homosexuality in the Nazi Party by Scott Lively and Kevin Abrams.

Hitler wasn't a christian and you know it, talk about pathetic

He sure didn't act like one, but he considered himself one. Ogiek gave plenty of sources a few pages back.

I'm a Jew and I don't blame Christianity. It is also to be noted that it was primarily Christians who fought Hitler. I agree the bastard was a pagan.

I don't blame all Muslims for OBL, but if they want to get sympathy from me, they better fight him as Christians fought Hitler.

I'm a Jew and I don't blame Christianity. It is also to be noted that it was primarily Christians who fought Hitler. I agree the bastard was a pagan.

I don't blame all Muslims for OBL, but if they want to get sympathy from me, they better fight him as Christians fought Hitler.

Well said.

Just for the record I don't believe Hitler was a Christian in the spiritual sense, although he called himself one. However, many people use their religion as cover for their own agendas.

I too would like to see an Islamic Reformation in which the extremist, funadmentalist dogma that dominates so much of the faith is challenged by more liberal viewpoints. I don't think true democracy and civil liberty will come to the Islamic Middle East until a Reformation takes place within the religion.

Well said.

Just for the record I don't believe Hitler was a Christian in the spiritual sense, although he called himself one. However, many people use their religion as cover for their own agendas.

I too would like to see an Islamic Reformation in which the extremist, funadmentalist dogma that dominates so much of the faith is challenged by more liberal viewpoints. I don't think true democracy and civil liberty will come to the Islamic Middle East until a Reformation takes place within the religion.
I honestly believe most Muslims would like to stand up against OBL. All of my Muslim friends on my debate team would. The problem is that in the Middle East you can't really stand up for what you believe in because tyrannical dictators won't let you. When the Shiites and Kurds tried to stand up against Saddam they got murdered. If you see what happens when Iraqis are working towards securing their nation and trying to get the inalienable rights of man, the minority is shutting up the majority with fear and terrorism. It's very tragic. I honestly believe most Muslims are good people and want freedom, but tha minority won't allow it.

Hitler was not a true Christian.
He was an Arian.
I do not think that we should blame the works of Osama on Islam.
I would consider him the same as I consider Hitler, not a real Muslim.
He could also be a muslim taking the teachings the wrong way for Allah.
Just some Ideas.

I don't think Hitler was Christian though there have been people who have used Christianity to justify hatred (but then that isn't true religion is it).

What you have to understand is that there is true religion and true agenda. Osama Bin Laden wants to act on behalf of his religion when his true agenda is hatred and political agendas, so then his actions cannot be blamed by religion because he'd use any excuse to hate the West politically.

Similarily we cannot blame Nietzsche's texts and Zoroastarianism for the rise of Hitler. Hitler hated religion or else why would he have despised Jehovah's witnesses or Catholics?

Do the same people who condemn Islam for the actions of the most extreme Muslims apply the same standard to Christianity and Christians?Yes and no. Hitler was mostly insane in his own right, but Christians seem to have a tendency to follow lunatics who claim to have a direct line to Himmel.

No. Hitler was Christian but a very screwed up Christian.

No Christian would torture Jews.

Auctually, anti-semitism was mainly found in Europe, by Christians

No. Hitler was Christian but a very screwed up Christian.

No Christian would torture Jews.
Oh, and the Roman, Middle Eastern, and Middle African histories are just things that anti-christian people made up, right?

Hitler makes alot of contradictory statements about religion. Sometimes, he speaks as if he were a christian, and at other times he says that christianity and national socialism (NAZIism) cannot coexist. This gives the impression that Hitler used religion as a tool and never truly saw himself as a christian. On the other hand, if you view what he said chronologically, you find that the vast majority of his positive statements about religion were made before he came to power, and most of the negative statements were made afterwards. This makes it seem like perhaps he believed in christianity until christianity began to become an obstacle for his views. We know that Hitler ordered the kidnapping of the Pope, so obviously there reached a point where Hitler gave up all pretenses of being catholic. Therefore we have a few possible alternatives.

1. Hitler was a christian but lost his faith shortly after gaining power.
2. Hitler was not a christian but used religion as a tool because he needed the support of Christian Germans in order to gain power.
3. Hitler believed himself to be a christian and came to believe he was greater than the pope.

It is, however, not possible to infer that Hitler really was a christian throughout his entire reign because we know he made many statements about how christianity and his NAZI movement could not coexist, and we know that he ordered the kidnapping of the pope.

No. Hitler was Christian but a very screwed up Christian.

No Christian would torture Jews.You contradict yourself.

Hitler was a Christian, more or less, and he also happened to be fucking insane. His idiotic religious beliefs may or may not have had anything to do with his actions, but do keep in mind that Christian morality is a contradiction in terms. Not only do you refuse to take responsibility for the monsters that you can legitimately be blamed for creating, but you refuse to believe that a monster that you didn't necessarily create is one of you. Have some balls.

1. Hitler was a christian but lost his faith shortly after gaining power.
2. Hitler was not a christian but used religion as a tool because he needed the support of Christian Germans in order to gain power.
3. Hitler believed himself to be a christian and came to believe he was greater than the pope.4. Hitler was a Christian who created a nationalistic splinter cult of Christianity that had some influences from archaic religions.

4. Hitler was a Christian who created a nationalistic splinter cult of Christianity that had some influences from archaic religions.

It is not possible to infer that because there is no evidence of such and there is evidence that contradicts it (his statements regarding how religion and christianity cannot coexist with his NAZI movement).

It is not possible to infer that because there is no evidence of such and there is evidence that contradicts it (his statements regarding how religion and christianity cannot coexist with his NAZI movement).Source? Direct quotes?

Source? Direct quotes?

Probably the best source is Hitler and Nazi Germany: A history
by Jackson J. Spielvogel

You can find it in any good library (or buy your own copy for like 50 bucks).

Here are some direct quotes from Hitlers later years:

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things.

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure.

Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease.

There are many more. All of those quotes are from 1941

One thing that's fairly certain about Hitler's religion is that he certainly contradicted it a lot.

I personally never blamed Christianity for Hitler, or Islam for Osama bin Laden.

But who cares what I think, eh?

4. Hitler was a Christian who created a nationalistic splinter cult of Christianity that had some influences from archaic religions.
You do realize that the catholic mass is more or less lifted directly from the rituals of Mithras, right?

Probably the best source is Hitler and Nazi Germany: A history
by Jackson J. Spielvogel

You can find it in any good library (or buy your own copy for like 50 bucks).

Here are some direct quotes from Hitlers later years:

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things.

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure.

Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease.

There are many more. All of those quotes are from 1941In light of this, it's looking like option two. Rather, he seemed to be looking to do what the North Korean government is doing or something like it. Using these quotations, I've found an interesting site. It seems that the notion of crafting a pseudo-Christian nationalist religion was someone else's idea, according to one of these quotes.

http://answers.org/Apologetics/Hitquote.html

Kerrl was apparently a member of the party who wanted to reconcile the differences between Christianity and the government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_Kerrl

It makes a degree of sense. Tyrants of this sort want people to worship them, and anything that could undermine that is a threat.

In light of this, it's looking like option two. Rather, he seemed to be looking to do what the North Korean government is doing or something like it. Using these quotations, I've found an interesting site. It seems that the notion of crafting a pseudo-Christian nationalist religion was someone else's idea, according to one of these quotes.

http://answers.org/Apologetics/Hitquote.html

Kerrl was apparently a member of the party who wanted to reconcile the differences between Christianity and the government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_Kerrl

It makes a degree of sense. Tyrants of this sort want people to worship them, and anything that could undermine that is a threat.

I too believe it is option two. I believe he used religion simply as a tool because, remember, Hitler was elected into office. He needed the support of German christians. But I give him the benefit of the doubt because he did have a catholic upbringing and was even an altar boy. It is conceivable that he was a christian at one point and lost his faith after coming to power.

You do realize that the catholic mass is more or less lifted directly from the rituals of Mithras, right?Actually, that is a common misconception. The Mithra religion happened to have some striking similarities to Christianity, and the Christians considered them a work of Satan designed to mock them even a good, long time before they gained enough power in the Roman government to effectively persecute them. The Christians hated them because they were similar to Christianity in many of their rituals. http://www.taivaansusi.net/historia/mithraism.html

The Christians do a lot of talking about how they were persecuted in Rome, but the only reason they became Nero's scapegoat is that they had already made themselves much unwelcome by some of their actions, not that I excuse any persecution. History is written by the winners, and the truth in circumstances such as this is usually that all involved were acting like spoiled children.

I too believe it is option two. I believe he used religion simply as a tool because, remember, Hitler was elected into office. He needed the support of German christians. But I give him the benefit of the doubt because he did have a catholic upbringing and was even an altar boy. It is conceivable that he was a christian at one point and lost his faith after coming to power.Then again, this makes the assumption that a person's beliefs are nearly static and there's a black&white distinction between Christian and non-Christian. It's possible that his beliefs waxed, waned, and shifted a great deal over the years. Just look at the founding fathers of the US; you can't put your finger on their beliefs at all because one statement could mark them as an atheist, another as an ecumenist, another as a deist, another as an agnostic, &c. People often change their beliefs on the turn of convenience or reflection.

However, I think that Hitler's lust for power was more or less a constant, and it's likely that he was after some form or other of emporer worship.

NOw let's pretend for a minute that the fellow really truly believed in Christianity. It doesn't really mean you ought to blame the faith as a whole any more than you can blame the Enlightenment (Liberty, democracy, equality, toleration) for the Reign of Terror, blame John Locke for the deaths that occurred during the American Revolution, or Nietzsche for the Second World War. A person can take any ideology and twist it to justify his actions. Robespierre used freedom as an excuse for terror, Lenin and Stalin used an ideology meant to liberate people as a means to oppress them.. so no, can't blame an ideology.

I'm not being patronising, but contrary to popular belief, Hitler wasn't actually stupid. Insane yes, but not stupid. He came up with all that stuff and got inspiration from it in order to create this religion.

Consider the following flaws in that arguement.

1) The dead sea scrols were part of the basis for the original Bible. Given that we have Bibles that we know for a fact date well beyond the 20th century, its a little difficult for Hitler to have "Created" Christianity by itself.

2) If Hitler "Created" Christianity, then there is the small problem of Britain being a Christian nation, along with large parts of Africa and America and all around the world that were untouched by the Nazi's.

I dont know what evidence there is to say that Hitler somehow "Created" Christianity but I think its hideously outweighed by the evidence that proves that he didn't.

Consider the following flaws in that arguement.

1) The dead sea scrols were part of the basis for the original Bible. Given that we have Bibles that we know for a fact date well beyond the 20th century, its a little difficult for Hitler to have "Created" Christianity by itself.

2) If Hitler "Created" Christianity, then there is the small problem of Britain being a Christian nation, along with large parts of Africa and America and all around the world that were untouched by the Nazi's.

I dont know what evidence there is to say that Hitler somehow "Created" Christianity but I think its hideously outweighed by the evidence that proves that he didn't.


Neo... the guy was joking. ;)

Neo... the guy was joking. ;)

If he was, he made a poor attempt of showing it.

Consider the following flaws in that arguement.

1) The dead sea scrols were part of the basis for the original Bible. Given that we have Bibles that we know for a fact date well beyond the 20th century, its a little difficult for Hitler to have "Created" Christianity by itself.

2) If Hitler "Created" Christianity, then there is the small problem of Britain being a Christian nation, along with large parts of Africa and America and all around the world that were untouched by the Nazi's.

I dont know what evidence there is to say that Hitler somehow "Created" Christianity but I think its hideously outweighed by the evidence that proves that he didn't.

I think he was being sarcastic in saying that Hitler created christianity. However, I must address your incorrect statement regarding the bible. The Dead Sea Scrolls were not part of the basis of the original bible. I dont know where you got that idea from, but it is not based on any facts.

NOw let's pretend for a minute that the fellow really truly believed in Christianity. It doesn't really mean you ought to blame the faith as a whole any more than you can blame the Enlightenment (Liberty, democracy, equality, toleration) for the Reign of Terror, blame John Locke for the deaths that occurred during the American Revolution, or Nietzsche for the Second World War. A person can take any ideology and twist it to justify his actions. Robespierre used freedom as an excuse for terror, Lenin and Stalin used an ideology meant to liberate people as a means to oppress them.. so no, can't blame an ideology.HA! John Locke lifted many of his ideas directly out of Epicurian philosophy, little do most know.

He sure didn't act like one, but he considered himself one. Ogiek gave plenty of sources a few pages back.

As did Roach busters for proving that he wasn't

Hitler was not a Christian. It was Hitler who said, "One is either a German or a Christian. You cannot be both. The religions are all the same, no matter what they call themselves. They have no future- certainly none for the Germans. Fascism, if it likes, may come to terms with the Church. So shall I. Why not? That won't prevent me from tearing up Christianity root and branch- and annihilating it in Germany."

Quoted in Therefore, Stand by Wilbur M. Smith.

If he was, he made a poor attempt of showing it.

Look up other posts by him, he admitted it himself. I think he made it pretty clear by coming up with such a bizarre conspiracy theory.

I think he was being sarcastic in saying that Hitler created christianity. However, I must address your incorrect statement regarding the bible. The Dead Sea Scrolls were not part of the basis of the original bible. I dont know where you got that idea from, but it is not based on any facts.

My mistake, yes. What I was trying to point out was that the deadsea scrolls vastly predate Hitler and are parts of the Bible. They are the oldest coppies of the Bible known and they vastly predate the 20th centuary.

HA! John Locke lifted many of his ideas directly out of Epicurian philosophy, little do most know.
Well of course so much of Enlightenment Era philosophy was lifted from the classical era, the same as most philosophy is influenced by that which came before. One need not look too hard at Voltaire to see similarities to Cicero, too, but Locke resurrected those ideas for his era of Western thought, and I'm sure the Americans were more influenced by Locke than by any Athenians.

If you played the historically acurate Wolfenstein games, you would know that Hitler was not a Christian, but a satan worshipper. He was constantly trying to revive the dead and do other crazy stuff.

You guys are stupid.

Many people blame Islam and all Muslims for the actions of Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda.

Should we then equally blame Christianity for the actions of Adolph Hitler? Was Hitler a Christian? Well, at least as much a Christian as bin Laden is a Muslim.

In Hitler’s own words:

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." (1941, told to General Gerhart Engel)

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without religious foundation is built on air; consequently all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . ." (April 26, 1933, on signing the Nazi-Vatican Concordat)

"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out." (October 24, 1933, in a speech in Berlin)

“My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter…In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison.

Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.” (a speech delivered April 12, 1922, published in "My New Order")

Do the same people who condemn Islam for the actions of the most extreme Muslims apply the same standard to Christianity and Christians?

What? NO, to all of your questions. Are you crazy?

Well of course so much of Enlightenment Era philosophy was lifted from the classical era, the same as most philosophy is influenced by that which came before. One need not look too hard at Voltaire to see similarities to Cicero, too, but Locke resurrected those ideas for his era of Western thought, and I'm sure the Americans were more influenced by Locke than by any Athenians.Are you kidding me? Locke practically quoted him! He just changed "safety" to "property."

Probably the best source is Hitler and Nazi Germany: A history
by Jackson J. Spielvogel

Thanks, I'll check it out. I met Spielvogel a few years back when I was doing some work on a high school world history textbook he wrote. He is a fascinating individual, who at the time, was interested in pursuing conspiracy theories and bizarre incidents in history.

Things we know about Hitler are that he was raised Austrian Catholic, had a twisted family tree, loved Wagner, had a flair for neo gothic art, and got seriously fucked in the head in WWI.

Before the "Final Solution" of the Jews, Germany had already killed over 70,000 German civilians, (the vast majority Christians) who were mentally and physically disabled with the consent of the German population. It was called Adult Euthanasia. The disabled were gassed with carbon monoxide in gas chambers that were made to look like showers. Germany was a Christian nation at the time.

Everything about Hitler was a product of the darkest thoughts that Christians of his time could have. He was a product of Christianity, not the best example, but one none the less.

Things we know about Hitler are that he was raised Austrian Catholic, had a twisted family tree, loved Wagner, had a flair for neo gothic art, and got seriously fucked in the head in WWI.

Before the "Final Solution" of the Jews, Germany had already killed over 70,000 German civilians, (the vast majority Christians) who were mentally and physically disabled with the consent of the German population. It was called Adult Euthanasia. The disabled were gassed with carbon monoxide in gas chambers that were made to look like showers. Germany was a Christian nation at the time.

Everything about Hitler was a product of the darkest thoughts that Christians of his time could have. He was a product of Christianity, not the best example, but one none the less.

How can a person be a product of Christianity? What the hell does that mean?
What were the darkest thoughts of Christians at that time? How do you know? You said: "Everything about Hitler was a product of the darkest thoughts that Christians of his time could have." Tell us everything. If you can't, I think you can't, name a few and connect them to the "dark thoughts of Christians" in the early 20th Century.
You allways say that all the bad things that happend in Germany or things done by Germans was known by all Germans, every single person. Do you really think that the people that had loved ones that were sick said 'Yes Herr Hitler we want to kill our son or mother etc. because you say they are bad', do you really think every single German thought that this was okay to kill the sick?

i'm sure the "the jews killed jesus" thing the catholic church was on about for nearly 2,000 years could have contributed in at least a little way to his thinking that they should be exterminated.

i'm sure the "the jews killed jesus" thing the catholic church was on about for nearly 2,000 years could have contributed in at least a little way to his thinking that they should be exterminated.

No not really. Sure there were anti-semetic Popes but there were *gasp* midieval Popes who protected the Jews from harm like Pope Clemet VI as well!

Are you kidding me? Locke practically quoted him! He just changed "safety" to "property."
And the Americans, in turn, practically quoted Locke, changing "Property" to "Pursuit of Happiness". The point remains that his writings, even if all he had done was make another copy of older texts, were what influenced the thought of the time. He's the one that got people thinking about that ideology again, even if it none of it was his own idea. He revived older ideas: that's what the Enlightenment and Neo-Classicism were all about.

Christianity can be blamed for everything. i stubbed my toe this morning, and i know for a fact that Christianity was behind it.

or nietzsche's writings for that matter, but nietzsche's still a misogynist twat
actually, nietzsche was more against typically "feminie" traits such as meekness and subbordination. i'm sure he would be pleased with liberated women.

Christianity can be blamed for everything. i stubbed my toe this morning, and i know for a fact that Christianity was behind it.

Your wrong.

No. Hitler was Christian but a very screwed up Christian.

No Christian would torture Jews.
the inquisition? that's what it was all about, the forcible conversion of jewish people to christianity. for some time in spain, there was a huge stigma against newly converted christians who were formely jewish, they weren't considered as pure or something... but they were forcibly converted to start with.

The real thing we need to blame are the angels, they were the ones who saved his arse in WWI. He says himself that they told him to move, only moments before a shell hit where he had been sitting and that they visited him throughout his life.

Actually, blame the Pacifists, on who believed in defending his nation in WW1, but refused to shoot a retreating man (very admantly refused) had the PERFICT shot at Hitler in the first world war, but after taking aim, he decided to let Hitler run awa, effectivly saving Hitler's life, whereas normally a soldier would have fired.
There was a painting of the incident made, that Hitler, before the war, had a copy of made on the wall of one of his villas.
Of course, we could blame the English for the same reason, since it was a Brit who had the opertunity, but out of the "kindness of his heart" decided not to shoot.




As did Roach busters for proving that he wasn't


Yea, but this quote was from someone who was NOT Hitler, I'd be more inclined to trust someone to tell me their religious beliefs then someone else telling me.

Your wrong.
Ooh, how insightful.

No, really, as Bottle was saying, you can blame anything you want on anybody, and Christianity happens to be one group on which you can blame things. I can say it's Christianity's fault that I have no car. That doesn't mean it's true, but I sure can blame it on them.

Your wrong.
if you are going to put your utter lack of humor and complete distain for complex thought on display, you might want to at least spell more than 50% of your words correctly.

I'm off to play Midieval Total War I've had enough of you atheists saying crap.

who's an atheist?

i know i'm not.

i don't think bottle is either... where are the atheists?

who's an atheist?

i know i'm not.

i don't think bottle is either... where are the atheists?
nope, no atheist here. i wish i knew who these atheists were...they've scared off Commando, and for that i owe them a handshake.

I'm off to play Midieval Total War I've had enough of you atheists saying crap.
Sorry, I'm not an atheist.
I haven't said "crap" yet either, up til this post.

Wait, by "I've had enough of you atheists saying crap," do you mean you don't think atheists should express their opinions?

who's an atheist?

i know i'm not.

i don't think bottle is either... where are the atheists?


I'm an atheist, but I haven't said anything on this thread.

I'm an atheist, but I haven't said anything on this thread.
lol.

so you haven't been saying "crap" since you haven't been saying anything at all then. :)

How can a person be a product of Christianity? What the hell does that mean?
What were the darkest thoughts of Christians at that time? How do you know? You said: "Everything about Hitler was a product of the darkest thoughts that Christians of his time could have." Tell us everything. If you can't, I think you can't, name a few and connect them to the "dark thoughts of Christians" in the early 20th Century.
You allways say that all the bad things that happend in Germany or things done by Germans was known by all Germans, every single person. Do you really think that the people that had loved ones that were sick said 'Yes Herr Hitler we want to kill our son or mother etc. because you say they are bad', do you really think every single German thought that this was okay to kill the sick?



Well let's see there's this one:

http://www.flholocaustmuseum.org/history_wing/assets/room1/wilhelm_marr_publication.jpg

and:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/luther-jews.html

and loads of stuff and learning resources here:

http://www.pbs.org/auschwitz/learning/

Really great program, not for the weak of constitution, but really great computer graphics and re enactment from logs and journals captured by the Soviets. Also some live interviews on former inmate survivors and SS.


Here's a link to the PBS site:

http://www.pbs.org/auschwitz/

-snip-
By this reply, do you mean that you disagree with his statement that not every German supported the Nazis?

First of all Christians are the only people on earth who take "thou shalt not kill" seriously. Secondly, just because someone says they are a Christian does not mean they are. There are alot of evil people who will pretend to be Christians for personal, professional or political gain, and to establish a rapport with people (which is the democratic parties next move). A real Christian would speak kindly of people, honor his God and Saviour, live as an example to others and try to help people. So, no, Christianity cannot be blamed for Hitler.

First of all Christians are the only people on earth who take "thou shalt not kill" seriously.
And the Muslims and Jews don't? Yet.. "Thou Shalt Not Kill", is a Jewish commandment.
Let's not forget the avrage Pagan, who is more of a pacifist then most Christians.
Your idea that only Christians follow that rule, is biggoted at best, and downright ignorant at least.

Secondly, just because someone says they are a Christian does not mean they are.
Anyone who believes that Jesus of Nazareth is the son of God, and that the Bible is the word of God, is a Christian.

There are alot of evil people who will pretend to be Christians for personal, professional or political gain, and to establish a rapport with people (which is the democratic parties next move).
I think you need to take another look at this world. In particular the fact that:
A) Christianity teaches that one may repent on their deathbed, accecpt Jesus, and be forgiven by God and go to Heaven. This is like a "Get out of Jail free" card, and many people use it as such.
B) The multiple sects of Christianity happen to have slightly different teachings on many subjects. Such as the Catholic's allowing someone to buy their way out of a Sin in the middle ages, or their belief in the Trinity, whereas Protestant's don't quite believe in the Trinity. Or take for example the Catholic burnings/killings of witches/heratics/american natives.

A real Christian would speak kindly of people, honor his God and Saviour, live as an example to others and try to help people.
In theory.
But then again, in theory, communism works. In fact, everything works in theory, but this is reality.


So, no, Christianity cannot be blamed for Hitler.
So, Christ can not be blamed for Christiaity, nor can Moses, Abraham, or God.


Of course, Christianity can not be solely blamed for Hitler. But it had a role, it had a role in almost everything in Europe for the past 1900 years. To deny so would be ignorant.

Well let's see there's this one:

http://www.flholocaustmuseum.org/history_wing/assets/room1/wilhelm_marr_publication.jpg

and:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/luther-jews.html

and loads of stuff and learning resources here:

http://www.pbs.org/auschwitz/learning/

Your point is based on:
One book anno 1880 - Hardly did it find it's way into the hands of every single German and make such a lasting effect on every single Christian and German. Have you read it? Are you basing this on one page out of a book you have never read? Not good enough.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/luther-jews.html-"The Nazis imprisoned and killed Jews who had converted to Christianity: Luther would have welcomed them.", "Second, although Luther's comments seem to be proto-Nazi, they are better seen as part of tradition of Medieval Christian anti-semitism." and "modern anti-Semitism does differ in being based on pseud-scientific notions of race."-Not good enough.

Auschwits- Why do you think we Germans do not know about this? Do you really think you know it better then us? When you can not support your own statements do not use the Jews as a way to parden yourself of your own stupidity and actions, it is cowardly.

Support your statement with your own words. Can you not do that?
Can you not answer the questions I gave you? I think you are trying to get out of it by referring to some internet pages you found.

Just say 'I was wrong' if you can not support what you said.

Many people blame Islam and all Muslims for the actions of Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda.

Only a few idiots blame all islam and muslims for the actions of a few, and only idiots generalize like the first post in this thread. Al-Qaeda and Osama are the result of militan hard line Islamic extremists, and this thread is the result of bigoted extreme leftism.

I think the question is more, "Can Hitler be blamed for Christianity?" I'm part of a small group of people in South USA, who believe there is evidence to suggest that Hitler founded the religion. He needed to blame a religion for his atroscities, so using the legend of Santa Claus in order to convince people, he fabricated the religion, which he called "christianity". He then quite succesfully convinced a number of people that it was over 2000 years old. After all, there is know reason, and know evidence to support the belief that "christianity" is more than 30 years old.

Only a few idiots blame all islam and muslims for the actions of a few, and only idiots generalize like the first post in this thread. Al-Qaeda and Osama are the result of militan hard line Islamic extremists, and this thread is the result of bigoted extreme leftism.
Oh yeah? check this out, homeboy.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.176

Only a few idiots blame all islam and muslims for the actions of a few, and only idiots generalize like the first post in this thread. Al-Qaeda and Osama are the result of militan hard line Islamic extremists, and this thread is the result of bigoted extreme leftism.

You have jumped to the conclusion that because I posed the question I believe the answer is in the affirmative.

In that, among other things, you are mistaken.

In addition to the quotes above:

"For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." - April 12, 1922

"I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." - Mein Kampf

"This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief." - Mein Kampf

"We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit ... " - The Speeches of Adolph Hitler, 1922-1939

"National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity . . ." - In a speech at Koblenz, August 26, 1934

Sounds like the words of a man who at least thought of himself as a Christian.


Actions speak louder than words, what were his actions? The Waffen SS destroyed churches, and crosses when they got the chance. His henchmen (at least Himmler) were far into the occult. Hitler's actions were not keeping with his words. He spoke nice pretty Christian words to garner support from the Christian masses.


Think about it, in Western Europe, if a leader stands up and shouts, "Hail Satan lets go kill the pope!" how many people are going to blindly follow? They use any advantage they can, appealing to the religion of the masses, that is how those types work.

Actions speak louder than words, what were his actions? The Waffen SS destroyed churches, and crosses when they got the chance. His henchmen (at least Himmler) were far into the occult. Hitler's actions were not keeping with his words. He spoke nice pretty Christian words to garner support from the Christian masses.


Think about it, in Western Europe, if a leader stands up and shouts, "Hail Satan lets go kill the pope!" how many people are going to blindly follow? They use any advantage they can, appealing to the religion of the masses, that is how those types work.

I agree! Actions do speak louder than words. With this it mind it can be said that OBL is not truely a Muslim, as, despite certain claims, Islam is not a violent religion, (See Below). OBL claims to be a Muslim to exploit people, just as Hitler claimed to be Christian to exploit people.

Most of the SS were Roman Catholics (Claimed to be). Just as suicide Bombers Claim to be Muslims. This does not mean that those religions, and the vast majority of those who belong to those religions, can be blamed for atrocities commited by a few nuts who claim to belong to those religions.

There are over 1 Billion muslims in the world. if it truely were a violent religion then there would probably be alot more bloodshed then there currently is. Most muslims are no more violent than most christians, or members of other religions.

There have been quotes from the bible and the koran which supposedly show these to be violent religions. As most people are aware of the peaceful teachings of the bible, I thought I'd provide a few from Islams sacred texts. (Bear in mind I am not a muslim, nor have I studied these texts, so this is not an exhaustive list, but what I found from searching the web for a few minutes!)

There should be no coercion in the matter of faith." (Translation & meaning of the Qur'an Ch. 2: verse 256)

"God forbids you not, with regards to those
who fight you not for [your] faith nor drive you out of your
homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them; for God
loves those who are just." (Quran, 60:8)

Some quotes from the Sunna, (The sayings of Muhammed):

`God has no mercy on one who has no mercy for others.'

`Powerful is not he who knocks the other down, indeed
powerful is he who controls himself in a fit of anger.'

Should we then equally blame Christianity for the actions of Adolph Hitler? Was Hitler a Christian? Well, at least as much a Christian as bin Laden is a Muslim.


I feel George Carlin put it best: "We could outlaw religion and most of these problems would go away in a few generations, but we don't have time for rational solutions."

I feel George Carlin put it best: "We could outlaw religion and most of these problems would go away in a few generations, but we don't have time for rational solutions."

Yeah, outlawing drugs really did for the drugs problem!!!

Many people blame Islam and all Muslims for the actions of Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda.

Should we then equally blame Christianity for the actions of Adolph Hitler? Was Hitler a Christian? Well, at least as much a Christian as bin Laden is a Muslim.

In Hitler’s own words:

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." (1941, told to General Gerhart Engel)

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without religious foundation is built on air; consequently all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . ." (April 26, 1933, on signing the Nazi-Vatican Concordat)

"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out." (October 24, 1933, in a speech in Berlin)

“My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter…In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison.

Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.” (a speech delivered April 12, 1922, published in "My New Order")

Do the same people who condemn Islam for the actions of the most extreme Muslims apply the same standard to Christianity and Christians?

The short answer is no they don't do that, and they ought to. The worst offenders are not even Christian though, there's Dr. Laura, and Mike Savage, neither of whom are Christians.
The reality is religion itself cannot be blamed for the rotten things some fanatical followers of said religion do, but it's also the reality that any religion alien to a region takes more blame.
So in Christian territory Muslims and Jews take blame and in Muslim territory, Christians and Jews take blame.
In neither case does the ordinary follower of that religion deserve blame, bad leaders surely do deserve blame but not the religion, it is only a tool in the hands of bad people.

I do not feel that Christianity can be linked to Hitler's ideas and movements. In my opinion, Hitler was a leader who saw a great opportunity for power. With post-WWI turmoil flooding Germany, people of the area were desperate for some kind of change. Adolf Hitler used many devices to gain power. By blaming current ideas and groups (racial blending, Jews) he offered what many believed could bring change. The issue of whether Hitler was a Christian or not really matters little. He simply played to the majority.

you know, I'm not touching this one. the point is valid. it's not that christians are evil: it's that muslims aren't. GAH! I TOUCHED IT! IT BURNS!!!!

also, godwin's law, people. Charlemagne. he was christian. Calligula. Jerry Falwell. and for those misguided enough to believe Jerry Flaw-well is a good man standing up for principals, Jesse Jackson. I have yet to meet someone who stands behind both. but my last point here: why always nazis and hitler? and when just talking about cruel dictators, Stalin, Pol Pot... I actually have a book of dictators. yes, Hitler's in there, but then there are fourteen others. including Shaka Zulu, and (shock) Genghis Khan.

Meh, he was just doing the same thing Pres. Bush is currently doing. Neither of are true Christians. So you are right... same thing Bin Laden was doing with the Muslim faith.sorry, I lied. one last thing. had to level my rocket launcher of reality at this one.

President bush is as much a true christian as anyone who is a christian. Bin laden is a true muslim. they are both using loopholes in their religions, but those loopholes are there. they are both true believers. Hitler not so sure about.

I don't think Christianity can be directly be blamed for Hitler. But many sects did encourage anti-semitism.
How about the fact that the nazis got their eugenics ideas from the U.S.?

I feel George Carlin put it best: "We could outlaw religion and most of these problems would go away in a few generations, but we don't have time for rational solutions."
Because we know how things worked out in the soviet union, we should immitate that :rolleyes:

Why christianity? Why not Nietzche? Thats where Hitler got the term Ubermensch from. Or wagner, he liked that. Even if Hitler was christian (Which he certainly was not) that doesn't mean christianity is to blame. Unless you could draw a link to it, we could equally say the holocaust has its roots in any number of Hitlers beliefs.
Second of all everything Hitler says should be taken with a grain of salt. If hitler really believed in christianity, then we should assume Stalin supported democratic governments
"There is no constitution as free and democratic as Stalin's"--Stalin
Hitler did things to garner support, I mean, the man hired Joseph Goebells. Now we should look at his actions, (practicing the occult), his orders (assasinating the pope) and his teachings in private (You can have one god, germany or christianity).

Why christianity? Why not Nietzche? Thats where Hitler got the term Ubermensch from. Or wagner, he liked that. Even if Hitler was christian (Which he certainly was not) that doesn't mean christianity is to blame. Unless you could draw a link to it, we could equally say the holocaust has its roots in any number of Hitlers beliefs.
Second of all everything Hitler says should be taken with a grain of salt. If hitler really believed in christianity, then we should assume Stalin supported democratic governments
"There is no constitution as free and democratic as Stalin's"--Stalin
Hitler did things to garner support, I mean, the man hired Joseph Goebells. Now we should look at his actions, (practicing the occult), his orders (assasinating the pope) and his teachings in private (You can have one god, germany or christianity).
But in the same way Hitler did not follow Christianity neither does Osama follow Muslim

That was the point showing that blaming Muslims for Osama is just like blaming Christians for Hitler. It just doesn’t logically work.

The real blame for Hitler lies with the Treaty of Versailles. It threw Germany into a cascade of economic depression and resentment, by forcing them to pay reparations and sign a war-guilt clause, even though the war started in Austria-Hungary with the assasination of the Archduke Ferdinand by a Serbian terrorist group known as the Black Hand. Austria-Hungary then declared war on Serbia. Serbia was allied with Russia so it declared war on Austria Hungary. Then the Germany and the Ottoman Empire, which were Allied with Austria-Hungary, declared war on Russia. The rest of the Allies jumped in on the Russian side and bam WW1. Hardly, just Germany's fault. This is a perfect example of people like, George Washington warned against entangling foreign alliances.

Anyway the discord allowed allowed the charsimatic Hitler to take power by blaming all their trouibles on non-Aryans(specifically jews.) He was also able to channel the German anger against other countries, in order to gain support for the war effort. Additionally, he said that Germany needed Liebensraum(living space) in order to propser. Basically, if Clemenceau and the rest hadn't been such jackasses at Versailles, WW2 could have been avoided.

Regardless of what people attribute to religions, they are simply stereotypes and generalizations. Dictators, tyrants and murderers can claim religious superiority all they like, but in reality none of the major religions condone their behavior at all.

I know that many Muslim clerics have taken pains to distance and distinguish themselves from the terrorists, and I assume the Catholic Church did the same... although I don't know it for a fact.

I believe this is a manifestation of the general human instinct to believe "my tribe is better than your tribe"

Also, someone said that Bush and Osama are both true believers in their religion.

That's not WRONG, but it's misleading. They BELIEVE that they follow the teachings of their religion, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they DO.

Many people blame Islam and all Muslims for the actions of Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda.

Should we then equally blame Christianity for the actions of Adolph Hitler? Was Hitler a Christian? Well, at least as much a Christian as bin Laden is a Muslim.

In Hitler’s own words:

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." (1941, told to General Gerhart Engel)

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without religious foundation is built on air; consequently all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . ." (April 26, 1933, on signing the Nazi-Vatican Concordat)

"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out." (October 24, 1933, in a speech in Berlin)

“My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter…In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison.

Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.” (a speech delivered April 12, 1922, published in "My New Order")

Do the same people who condemn Islam for the actions of the most extreme Muslims apply the same standard to Christianity and Christians?


None of these religions is any more to blame than Atheism is to blame for Stalin.

Offiically, Hitler was a baptized and confirmed Roman Catholic, and never officially renounced his nominal faith. Unofficialy, he was not so much a pagan as a sort of twisted version of quasi-Christian Deist with Manichean tendencies. He regarded the Jews as genuinely evil, and was given to paranoid delusions about them. Bear in mind that the Pope secretly sympathized with Hitler. I do think that anti-Semitism was largely started by Christians, and if you doubt me, just read Paul's and John's attacks on Judaism and Jews in the bible. Safe to say, that kind of irresponsible rhetoric was a major factor in the rise of the anti-Semitic movements in "Christendom".

Also, there were plenty of nationalistic pagans, such as Ludendorff, who later repudiated Hitler. So nationalism is no more to blame than Christianity, and certainly paganism is not to blame. Ludendorff, for instance, reprimanded Hindenburg for appointing Hitler Chancellor. He had seen Hitler's behavior in the November Putsch, and didn't like what he saw.

Nationalism is good, but National Socialism is evil, and so are anti-Semitism and racism.

None of these religions is any more to blame than Atheism is to blame for Stalin.
That was his point (though you can argue Stalin was more anti organization then anti theism)

actually, nietzsche was more against typically "feminie" traits such as meekness and subbordination. i'm sure he would be pleased with liberated women.

sorry, you're probably right, i got bored a little while into thus spoke zarathustra, quite plodding, some good stuff though.

Hitler was not a Christian, but a pagan. He believed he was a reincarnated teutonic God, and experimented with the occult. He sometimes said he was Catholic to gain support, but he really wasn't. In fact he secretly critisized Spain and Italy for following Catholicism and said they were fools to do so. And he tried to have the Pope kidnapped.
Publically, he was Catholic and said he would be for his entire life.

He was decidedly not a pagan; the PR guy who brought in the norse mythos stuff was a devout christian, and neither Hitler nor the rest of the party gave it much credence even as a PR move.

Wild rumors about kidnapping the pope and what he "secretly" said aren't historical facts, they're urban legends.

Err..may I say something? Hitler used runes that looked like lightning to symbolize his SS officers. The runes came from the old pagan Norse religion; obviously meant to symbolize Thor. He wantonly allowed Himmler to pursue his occult interests as he liked.

And,Hitler collaborated with the Mufti of Palestine to form a Bosnian Islam SS unit .Even the worst murderers during the crusades will scream out of anger and anxiety if they saw Hitler doing this.

So it can be said that Hitler wasn't a really much of a Christian.

Err..may I say something? Hitler used runes that looked like lightning to symbolize his SS officers. The runes came from the old pagan
Norse religion; obviously meant to symbolize Thor.
How do you know they were meant to symbolize Thor? Do you have a source?
He wantonly allowed Himmler to pursue his occult interests as he liked.
I don't think what Himmler believed has anything to do with what Hitler did...
And,Hitler collaborated with the Mufti of Palestine to form a Bosnian Islam SS unit . Even the worst murderers during the crusades will scream
out of anger and anxiety if they saw Hitler doing this.

So it can be said that Hitler wasn't a really much of a Christian.
What's all that have to do with being Christian?
Main Entry: 1Chris·tian
Pronunciation: 'kris-ch&n, 'krish-
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin christianus, adjective & n., from Greek christianos, from Christos
1 a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ b (1) : DISCIPLE 2 (2) : a member of one of the Churches of Christ separating from the Disciples of Christ in 1906 (3) : a member of the Christian denomination having part in the union of the United Church of Christ concluded in 1961
2 : the hero in Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress
None of what you said has to do with believing in the teachings of Christ. I would say that he would be a very bad Christian if he were to do all that, but they don't really influence whether or not he is a CHristian.

What's all that have to do with being Christian?

I'll only focus on this since this is enough to show Hitler wasn't much of a Christian. :)

Not only did he allow the Mufti to form a Bosnian unit,he had plans to make sure that Jerusalem(the holy city) be cleansed of Jews and so the Mufti will rise in power there.

Islam is a traditional enemy of the Christians,so even collaborating with the Mufti and allowing Islam to be the dominant power in Jerusalem just because he hates Jews cancels all chances of Hitler being labelled a Christian.

While good Christians around the world were starting to talk nice things about the Jews,here Hitler was getting to ready to exterminate them and handing the promised land of the Jews and the surrounding land which included the birthplace of Jesus to *you know who*.