NationStates Jolt Archive

A World Without Israel
By Josef Joffe (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/files/story2737.php)

Imagine that Israel never existed. Would the economic malaise and political repression that drive angry young men to become suicide bombers vanish? Would the Palestinians have an independent state? Would the United States, freed of its burdensome ally, suddenly find itself beloved throughout the Muslim world? Wishful thinking. Far from creating tensions, Israel actually contains more antagonisms than it causes.

Any comments?

Any comments?
Its a nice link in the first post, most folks are probably still reading it

Lots of opinion and rhetoric, but no facts. An interesting read however if you want to learn how to make a lost cause sound like it is being misrepresented.

:eek:

if you want to learn how to make a lost cause sound like it is being misrepresented.

:eek:
Another look at misrepresentation (http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part6.html)

I certainly don't want to live in a world without Israel. They're the US only real ally in the middle east.

Lots of opinion and rhetoric, but no facts. An interesting read however if you want to learn how to make a lost cause sound like it is being misrepresented.

:eek:

How is Israel "a lost cause" ? And I don't think a world without Israel would be extraordinarily different from the world today. The Middle East would most likely remain just about the same (of course, no facts to back this up), except they might hate the US for invading Iraq, not for supporting Israel (assuming Bush invaded at all). But I don't think terrorism or hatred would disappear with Israel. Just look at Northern Ireland. Just like the Palestinians, they are fighting for what they believe in, but are still considered terrorists.

Another look at misrepresentation (http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part6.html)

I am not saying that one side is better than the other in this propaganda war. I would just like it if occasionally people supported their opinions with some evidence.

It would be just as easy to post videos of hard line Jews arguing for the extermination of the Palestinians, That there are extremists on both sides is not news, nor does it resolve the problem. There are some basic facts. The Israelis occupied the land that is now called Israel, when it was already occupied by another people. They did this with the military and political help of the USA and the UK in particular. The peoples that were there now hold a severe hatred of the USA and, to a lesser degree, of the UK. These are facts. Not opinions.

How is Israel "a lost cause" ? And I don't think a world without Israel would be extraordinarily different from the world today. The Middle East would most likely remain just about the same (of course, no facts to back this up), except they might hate the US for invading Iraq, not for supporting Israel (assuming Bush invaded at all). But I don't think terrorism or hatred would disappear with Israel. Just look at Northern Ireland. Just like the Palestinians, they are fighting for what they believe in, but are still considered terrorists.

I am not arguing that Israel is a lost cause. I am arguing that getting the Arab world to think that the world is a better place because of Israel is a lost cause.
:)

I certainly don't want to live in a world without Israel. They're the US only real ally in the middle east.

Can we substitue the word ally for puppet? Or would that be going too far I wonder?

Can we substitue the word ally for puppet? Or would that be going too far I wonder?
We are not Israel's puppet.

"Imagine that Israel never existed. Would the economic malaise and political repression that drive angry young men to become suicide bombers vanish? Would the Palestinians have an independent state? Would the United States, freed of its burdensome ally, suddenly find itself beloved throughout the Muslim world? Wishful thinking. Far from creating tensions, Israel actually contains more antagonisms than it causes."

If Israel had never existed, then the full, irrational fury of the Jhiadists would have been turned on the US years and years ago.

It would be just as easy to post videos of hard line Jews arguing for the extermination of the Palestinians, That there are extremists on both sides is not news, nor does it resolve the problem. There are some basic facts. The Israelis occupied the land that is now called Israel, when it was already occupied by another people. They did this with the military and political help of the USA and the UK in particular. The peoples that were there now hold a severe hatred of the USA and, to a lesser degree, of the UK. These are facts. Not opinions.

Right, those are facts. When we look at it from that perspective, then the Palestinians have every right to hate the US. But on the other hand, denying the Jewish people their homeland is just as unfair as denying the Palestinian people their homeland. Back in the '40s, the UN probably could have figured out a compromise. Then again maybe not, but it's water under the bridge now. If there was no Israel, the Jewish people would be unhappy, but the Palestinians would be content. So who's to say who should have the land and who shouldn't?

We are not Israel's puppet.

LOL

The peoples that were there now hold a severe hatred of the USA and, to a lesser degree, of the UK. These are facts. Not opinions.
Indeed, and the people of Israel are not leaving Israel voluntarily thats a fact, not an opinion , and any attempt to coerce them into leaving will result in a situation far worse than the region is presently in. thats a fact not an opinion The Israelis are aware of this fact, perhaps if everyone acknowledged this fact, real moves to peace could begin?

Man, I'd be ticked. With all the shit in the mideast, I mean, YARRR!

If Israel had never existed, then the full, irrational fury of the Jhiadists would have been turned on the US years and years ago.

Why? It has not turned on China, nor Japan, nor South Afribca, nor Argentina. If it had not been provoked, why would there be a jihad against the USA?

LOL
No, seriously. Israel isn't the US's puppet. They don't ask us permission before they act. Nor should they. Hell, they even spy on us from time to time. If a puppet did that he'd get his strings tied in a knot. In fact we just have a close relationship with Israel because we have a lot in common.

A World Without Israel
By Josef Joffe (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/files/story2737.php)

Without this situation how else would the lion and the lamb be able to lie down together?

Why? It has not turned on China, nor Japan, nor South Afribca, nor Argentina. If it had not been provoked, why would there be a jihad against the USA?

The Chinese and Japanese are not Christians, South Africa and Argentina don't have the ability to project power.

The combination of the ability to project power, the issue of Christianity, and the resource we call OIL which sits in the ground in the Middle East virtually guarantees that the US will be doing something there.

Helping allies (Israel might have been the first, but we give Egypt billions per year now, and many Gulf States have deep ties to the US). Invading countries. Firing missiles at others.

It's not just an Israel thing. When we construct an incestuously deep arrangement with Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and Kuwait, that's not at Israel's behest, advice, or even their wish. It's because of the oil.

You know, the stuff gasoline comes out of.

Indeed, and the people of Israel are not leaving Israel voluntarily thats a fact, not an opinion , and any attempt to coerce them into leaving will result in a situation far worse than the region is presently in. thats a fact not an opinion The Israelis are aware of this fact, perhaps if everyone acknowledged this fact, real moves to peace could begin?

Nor are the Palestinians leaving voluntarily. And herein lies the problem. Two peoples claiming the same land, both think justifiably, and with irreconcilable cultural differences. A nice problem, no a very nasty problem. My point was not that the Israelis should leave, nor that the palestinians shoiuld leave. It was simply that the article was apparently unfounded. Rhetoric arguing that the Palestinians would be worse off if Israel had never existed, is simple propaganda for the israeli case. That is all I was saying.

Nor are the Palestinians leaving voluntarily. And herein lies the problem. Two peoples claiming the same land, both think justifiably, and with irreconcilable cultural differences. A nice problem, no a very nasty problem. My point was not that the Israelis should leave, nor that the palestinians shoiuld leave. It was simply that the article was apparently unfounded. Rhetoric arguing that the Palestinians would be worse off if Israel had never existed, is simple propaganda for the israeli case. That is all I was saying.
Hmm I think I understand you, although if the Palestinians were to leave Israel they have all of the muslim world to go to, where would the Israelis go if they were driven out of Israel?

A World Without Israel
By Josef Joffe (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/files/story2737.php)
Hmmm its an interesting quesiton. To be honest I'm not sure. Where do you propose that the jewish would have been settled???? In Palestine as well, but not in there own settlement w=mixed in with the population? It still would have caused hatered then, but it would be a much lesser extent now..or maybe not as the US would have had to take over Palestine!

I think they would have done it anyway due to their containment policy post ww2, it gave them a cause to interfer or what ever you want to call it, in the middle east, as America previously held no interests there! America was going to be closely linked to Europe through the UK and later NATO, but it really had no business being in the middle east

The Chinese and Japanese are not Christians, South Africa and Argentina don't have the ability to project power.

Nor are they Muslims. If the issue was purely religious, and this was not just a cover for other issues, then then there would be a jihad against the entire non muslim world, or no jihad at all. Do not let religious denomination confuse the issue here.

The combination of the ability to project power, the issue of Christianity, and the resource we call OIL which sits in the ground in the Middle East virtually guarantees that the US will be doing something there.

Power projection is an image that the USA has of itself. China, the EU, and most developped nations certainly hve the same image in the eyes of the middle east. Chritianity was dealt with above; now OIL, here is a thing that makes some sense. The reason why the British were hated in the Middle East prior to the foundation of Israel, was due to their political machinations in the name of OIL. Yes, it guarantees that the US would be doing something, but not that it would be hated in the way that the US currently is.


Helping allies (Israel might have been the first, but we give Egypt billions per year now, and many Gulf States have deep ties to the US). Invading countries. Firing missiles at others.

It's not just an Israel thing. When we construct an incestuously deep arrangement with Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and Kuwait, that's not at Israel's behest, advice, or even their wish. It's because of the oil.

You know, the stuff gasoline comes out of.

I agree, but Israel was the straw that broke the arab camels back. The US relations with the Gulf states is not to Israel's liking, but Israel can do absolute Jack shit about this, as it depends on US military strength for its very existance. The relationship of Egypt with the US is viewed with mistrust, because of the US's relationship with Israel. Invading countries, firing missiles at others, these came later. The US was already hated, could not negotiate peacefully because of this, could not get what it wanted, and so became beligerent.

Hmm I think I understand you, although if the Palestinians were to leave Israel they have all of the muslim world to go to, where would the Israelis go if they were driven out of Israel?

The USA. Anywhere in the EU. Better options I think than Afghanistahn, Iraq, Iran, or even Syria. :)

I don't think that peace is realisticaly possible in this region until one group or the other gives up its claim to the land. And that is just not going to happen, for religious reasons if nothing else. :(

Even if Israel didn't exist, there would still be the Kurds.

And if it wasn't for the Kurds, there would still be war between Shiites and Sunnis.

Its a nice link in the first post, most folks are probably still reading it

Or not, from at least some of what's being posted... ;)

The USA. Anywhere in the EU. Better options I think than Afghanistahn, Iraq, Iran, or even Syria. :)

I don't think that peace is realisticaly possible in this region until one group or the other gives up its claim to the land. And that is just not going to happen, for religious reasons if nothing else. :(

Nothing but the finger of God stirring the pot can make that happen. And happen it will and is.

The USA. Anywhere in the EU. Better options I think than Afghanistahn, Iraq, Iran, or even Syria. :) The usa is safe for now, but antisemitism is on the rise again in the EU.(still safer than afganistan etc tho ;) )

I don't think that peace is realisticaly possible in this region until one group or the other gives up its claim to the land. And that is just not going to happen, for religious reasons if nothing else. :(
On this I agree with you, now let me ask you , which group can realistically be driven from the land , The Israelis? Or the Palestinians?

Even if Israel didn't exist, there would still be the Kurds.

And if it wasn't for the Kurds, there would still be war between Shiites and Sunnis.

No-one is saying that the area would be a paradise.

Or not, from at least some of what's being posted... ;)
:D

Do the Jews not deserve a holy land after all they have been through (Holocaust, pogroms etc.)

Even if Israel didn't exist, there would still be the Kurds.

And if it wasn't for the Kurds, there would still be war between Shiites and Sunnis.

And so on, and so on, and so on. (Which was one of the main points of bthe piece, for those who haven't bothered to read it.)

On this I agree with you, now let me ask you , which group can realistically be driven from the land , The Israelis? Or the Palestinians?

Neither. No easy solution, short of genocide somewhere.

"The Israelis occupied the land that is now called Israel, when it was already occupied by another people."

That land was theirs in the first place.

Neither. No easy solution, short of genocide somewhere.
The Palestinians can be deported, the Israelis cannot.
Surely the fact that Israel hasnt just deported the Palestinians en masse is evidence that they are willing to co-exist peacefully?

"The Israelis occupied the land that is now called Israel, when it was already occupied by another people."

That land was theirs in the first place.

If you go back far enough, let us just call the land Cainan *sp* and give it back to the Cainanites. *sp*

If first occupation is a criteria, then just about every ethnic group in the world would have to get up and move.

If you go back far enough, let us just call the land Cainan *sp* and give it back to the Cainanites. *sp*

If first occupation is a criteria, then just about every ethnic group in the world would have to get up and move.

but the jews claim to have been given the land by God

The Palestinians can be deported, the Israelis cannot.
Surely the fact that Israel hasnt just deported the Palestinians en masse is evidence that they are willing to co-exist peacefully?

The Palestinians scan only be forcibly deported. The Israelis could equally be forcibly deported. If you are arguing thaty the land is Israel, and therefore Israeli law is the one to be used,. Then you are creating a closed argument, against which no reasoning will have any effect as the outcome is built into the premises.
Both peoples have a legitimate claim to the land. That is the problem. Deporting one group does not remove the legitimacy of their claim.

but the jews claim to have been given the land by God

Show me the deed poll. ;)

If you think that the Middle East is bad now, just think what it will be like when the oil runs out. Production is already at its peak, and it's only downhill from here on out.

Imagine a Middle East abandoned by the West, and poor. At that point, few in the West will care what they do.

Why? It has not turned on China, nor Japan, nor South Afribca, nor Argentina. If it had not been provoked, why would there be a jihad against the USA?
The chinese are relatively insular, whereas immigration to America is a dream for many. America is a much bigger threat to the stability of their social order.

The Palestinians scan only be forcibly deported.
Yet the Israelis have not done so

The Israelis could equally be forcibly deported.
Not so Israels arab neighbours have made many attempts to eradicate Israel by force, none have succeeded. If you are arguing thaty the land is Israel,I am arguing that no one is in a postition to stop the land being Israel(despite the attempts of Arab armies) and therefore Israeli law is the one to be used,. Then you are creating a closed argument, against which no reasoning will have any effect as the outcome is built into the premises. No legal argument is being used, I am not creating a closed argument, I am sticking to the facts and avoiding opinions.
Both peoples have a legitimate claim to the land. Yet only Israel is militarily capable of enforcing their claim That is the problem. Deporting one group does not remove the legitimacy of their claim. No but it renders their claim useless.

It worth remembering that the middle-east has never been particuarly peaceful the displacement and genocides committed by the Ottoman Empire, the vacuum left after its disintergration and the meddling of the British and French who filled that vacuum mean it is generally unstable Isreal or no Isreal.

As an ethnic Jew the actions of my fellow Jews deeply disturbs me as do the actions of the Palestinians. The only complete solution is a world where anyone can live anywhere without any tension, however this is pretty unlikely. My other solution is tell the Isrealies and Palestinians that if they don't get on they're all being deported to Stoke-on-Trent.

I'm staunchly pro-Israel. The communists all vehemently hate Israel, so it must be a pretty great nation.

Stoke-on-Trent.

Dear g-d .. does anyone deserve that sort of punishment ! :p

For the record, extremly pro-Israel.

A World Without Israel
By Josef Joffe (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/files/story2737.php)

Why, I think there was a German political leader several decades back who shared that very same sentiment. Although, I believe his proposal for solving the world's ills was more comprehensive than just eliminating Israel.

Yeah true, maybe only Barrow-in-Furness.

If you think that the Middle East is bad now, just think what it will be like when the oil runs out. Production is already at its peak, and it's only downhill from here on out.

Imagine a Middle East abandoned by the West, and poor. At that point, few in the West will care what they do.
Israel will be fine. Their economy is based on tehcnology and manufacturing.

A wold without Isral would be horribel. All the Arabs having their own country killing all they want? :sniper: :mp5: .. What about the Jews will they all be prsecuted and wiped out?!! Also do you remeber the end of the 80's or something. IUt was either Iran or Iraq got these wsome missles and were about to send them when Israli airships came in and blew out the misslew. Without that there might njot even be a America!

A wold without Isral would be horribel. All the Arabs having their own country killing all they want? :sniper: :mp5: .. What about the Jews will they all be prsecuted and wiped out?!! Also do you remeber the end of the 80's or something. IUt was either Iran or Iraq got these wsome missles and were about to send them when Israli airships came in and blew out the misslew. Without that there might njot even be a America!
I am anxious to hear more of your thoughts on this issue.

Thanks!

A wold without Isral would be horribel. All the Arabs having their own country killing all they want? :sniper: :mp5: .. What about the Jews will they all be prsecuted and wiped out?!! Also do you remeber the end of the 80's or something. IUt was either Iran or Iraq got these wsome missles and were about to send them when Israli airships came in and blew out the misslew. Without that there might njot even be a America!

A world without Israel would be wonderful.

I wouldn't really care if the Jews were all persecuted and wiped out.

If America sees it's downfall within my lifetime, I'll be crying with tears of joy.

Wow that was nice, you sure care about other human beings don't you!

A world without Israel would be wonderful.

I wouldn't really care if the Jews were all persecuted and wiped out.

If America sees it's downfall within my lifetime, I'll be crying with tears of joy.
It sounds like you have the makings of your very own thread, may I encourage you to make one?

A world without Israel would be wonderful.

I wouldn't really care if the Jews were all persecuted and wiped out.

If America sees it's downfall within my lifetime, I'll be crying with tears of joy.
Keep it up. Your posts are usefull. You are only winning friends for the good old US of A.

I would like to point out that both Cairheren and Modha are twits. Arabs aren't gentically programmed to kill Jews and vice versa, open your eyes you two!

I would like to point out that both Cairhean and Modha are twits. Arabs aren't gentically programmed to kill Jews and vice versa, open your eyes you two!
That's absolutely correct. Arabs are cuturally programmed to do so. Thankfully they're not that good at it.

Correction your the twit. Jews don't wanna kill Arabs, but when the Arabs try to kill Jews. what do you expect they lay down and die?

Keep it up. Your posts are usefull. You are only winning friends for the good old US of A.

So it's alright to blame Arabs and Muslims for the violence in the world but it's not okay to blame Israel and the US? Ok, I see plenty of fairness in that.

Correction your the twit. Jews don't wanna kill Arabs, but when the Arabs try to kill Jews. what do you expect they lay down and die?
Clearly the French would prefer that. That's been a successful strategy for them for many years.


Before anybody gets all indignant and stuff please realize I was just making a joke.

I never blamed the Arabs, I only blame the Arabs when they shoot innocent Jews. I know they aren't killing thw world, but they are killing Jews. Also since when was US killing people, and Isael, all Isreal does is save people.

Jews and Arabs kill each other because they are locked in a cycle of ever escalating violence. Everytime the Isrealis bulldose a house with a family inside it they create more suicide bombers, everytime a suicide bomber blows up a bus of school children they sign the death warrants of more of their own people at the hands of Isreal. It doesn't who started it people of both races are dying as we speak and it isn't right. As a Jew I have a liscense to talk about these things moreso than an uneducated American 12 year old.

Me, since when was I? A uneducated 12 year old boy us 12 year old boy? I'm ALSO A JEW! AND AS I SEE MUCH MORE OF A ONE THEN YOU! Also when did a jew buldoze over people show me that?

all Isreal does is save people.

One name - Jenin

So it's alright to blame Arabs and Muslims for the violence in the world but it's not okay to blame Israel and the US? Ok, I see plenty of fairness in that.
Other than Iraq when has the US taken unprovoked offensive action against Muslims? Even there we try to minimize civilian casualties. (a foolish strategy)

Israel too seeks to minimize civilian casualties.

Palestinians blow up commuter buses, and shoot carloads of women and children on purpose.

Al Quaeda attacked two buildings filled with thousands of civilians without provocation.

So I hope you'll excuse me if have a slight antipathy toward Islam, and am not bothered by Muslim deaths.

I dunno what that is?

And very true Drunken person guy.

Yes I remember that, Israeli tanks proudly prowling over Palestinian homes.

I dunno what that is?
Its a topical application for the treatment of haemorrhoids.

Then you'v got your sources mixed up.

I have no clue what that is either.

Also we might be ok with going over the houses of terrioists.

Oy vay Cairheren you are the most uneducated Jew I have ever encountered. Even the Western Media reports the Isreali tactic of bulldozing Palestinian homes. Where do you get your information? The Likud Party newsletter?

Yes I remember that, Israeli tanks proudly prowling over Palestinian homes.
In response to palestinian terrorism.

Other than Iraq when has the US taken unprovoked offensive action against Muslims? Even there we try to minimize civilian casualties. (a foolish strategy)

Israel too seeks to minimize civilian casualties.

Palestinians blow up commuter buses, and shoot carloads of women and children on purpose.

Al Quaeda attacked two buildings filled with thousands of civilians without provocation.

So I hope you'll excuse me if have a slight antipathy toward Islam, and am not bothered by Muslim deaths.

So you blame the religion and all who are its adherents?

Tell me, did you do the same when the Christian, Timothy McVeigh, blew up the building in Oklahoma? Do you still harbor resentment against the Christians for the tens of millions of dead the Christian Hitler is responsible for ("My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter...Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross" - Adolph Hitler)?

Surely Christians have shed more innocent blood than have Muslims.

Exacytly, now... Because I AM A JEW,I have to go for Sabbath. I'll see you all tomm night. Drunked guy, do your best to get them to see the light. Bye!

The Isrealis killed a handful of terrorrists and huge numbers of civilians, women and children included.

The Isrealis killed a handful of terrorrists and huge numbers of civilians, women and children included.
I'd heard that the civilian casualties were way over inflated by palestinians to tar the Israelis with a bad reputation. Is there an accurate body count? Got a link?

Some forward thinking Jewish organisations

http://www.israelpolicyforum.org/

http://www.peacenow.org/

http://www.jewishsocialist.org.uk/

I'd heard that the civilian casualties were way over inflated by palestinians to tar the Israelis with a bad reputation. Is there an accurate body count? Got a link?

Give me a few minutes.

So you blame the religion and all who are its adherents?

Tell me, did you do the same when the Christian, Timothy McVeigh, blew up the building in Oklahoma? Do you still harbor resentment against the Christians for the tens of millions of dead the Christian Hitler is responsible for ("My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter...Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross" - Adolph Hitler)?

Surely Christians have shed more innocent blood than have Muslims.
I don't know if christians have shed more throughout history, but I know muslims have shed more in my lifetime, and they have specifically targeted my countrymen. I'm not saying I'm justified, but it's how I feel. I won't appologize for it.

So you blame the religion and all who are its adherents?

Tell me, did you do the same when the Christian, Timothy McVeigh, blew up the building in Oklahoma? Do you still harbor resentment against the Christians for the tens of millions of dead the Christian Hitler is responsible for ("My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter...Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross" - Adolph Hitler)?

Surely Christians have shed more innocent blood than have Muslims.

Correction: Hitler was not a Christian. It was Hitler who said, "One is either a German or a Christian. You cannot be both. The religions are all the same, no matter what they call themselves. They have no future- certainly none for the Germans. Fascism, if it likes, may come to terms with the Church. So shall I. Why not? That won't prevent me from tearing up Christianity root and branch- and annihilating it in Germany."

Quoted in Therefore, Stand by Wilbur M. Smith.

It's seems I was wrong to say that a huge number of civillians were killed but the numbers seem to add up to a civillian dead for every terrorist dead.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3163106.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/GWeekly/Story/0,,689935,00.html

If jews did not exist the world would be a better place..WE could keep them till 500AD and then kill them all: No WW2 no 9/11 the wourld would be a such better place..... For 5000 years someone tried to kill jews i mean come on there is a message in it they should not be!!!!

Here's a question I've been dying to ask Mohda. Seeming as I'm a Jew that disapproves of Isreal's actions should I be wiped out as well? Surely if you think that you're as bad as the Zionists who want all Arabs wiped out.

My my this topic is full of pro-Isreal pro-American highly patriotic posters... Anyway, Isreal is killing homes looking for "terrorist, as american's would call it" tunnels to find weapons and such. I believe there sucess rate is very low. Some people have argued about how sucide bombers kill women and children. Isreal bulldozes homes, makes people homeless, they have detain refugees and restrict refugee camps, even though these refugees have been through so much. I'm surprised no one has mentioned that wall Isreal has built, Berlin style.

The point I've being trying to make is that both the Isrealis and Palestinians areguilty of senseless violence and inhumanity.

It's seems I was wrong to say that a huge number of civillians were killed but the numbers seem to add up to a civillian dead for every terrorist dead.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3163106.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/GWeekly/Story/0,,689935,00.html
The first link tells nothing of the ratio of combatant vs. civilian casualties.

The second one says, and I quote "as the hunt for bodies goes on, it is increasingly clear from the evidence collected by journalists that the majority of those so far recovered have been fighters from Islamic Jihad, Hamas and the al-Aqsa Brigades. Certainly civilians died, but so far they are in the minority."

It also says that the tales of civilian slaughter are not credible.

So much for a massacre. So much for one civilian dead for every fighter.

Next time when you select a source to support your argument, make sure it supports your argument.

If jews did not exist the world would be a better place..WE could keep them till 500AD and then kill them all: No WW2 no 9/11 the wourld would be a such better place..... For 5000 years someone tried to kill jews i mean come on there is a message in it they should not be!!!!
And yet they've survived the past 5000 years, maybe that should tell YOU something.

They've survived millenia of persecution and enslavement. They've become one of the most recognized nations on the planet.

I say tehy're doing pretty damned well for how they've been treated.

And no, I'm far from a "jew lover." I'm a former racist. I wised up. How about you do the same?

My my this topic is full of pro-Isreal pro-American highly patriotic posters... Anyway, Isreal is killing homes looking for "terrorist, as american's would call it" tunnels to find weapons and such. I believe there sucess rate is very low. Some people have argued about how sucide bombers kill women and children. Isreal bulldozes homes, makes people homeless, they have detain refugees and restrict refugee camps, even though these refugees have been through so much. I'm surprised no one has mentioned that wall Isreal has built, Berlin style.
That wall has been extremely effective in stopping terrorism.

The point I've being trying to make is that both the Isrealis and Palestinians areguilty of senseless violence and inhumanity.
Considering the fact that it is in Israel's power to wipe out the palestinians, and yet the palestinians exist, Israel has been more than humane.

Here's a question I've been dying to ask Mohda. Seeming as I'm a Jew that disapproves of Isreal's actions should I be wiped out as well? Surely if you think that you're as bad as the Zionists who want all Arabs wiped out.

I never said I supported Jews being wiped out. I said I don't care if they do.

I never said I supported Jews being wiped out. I said I don't care if they do.
If you dont care if they are wiped out- then you would take no action to prevent jews from being killed for being jewish- this is tacit consent to the murder of jews.

I never said I supported Jews being wiped out. I said I don't care if they do.

It's tantamount to it.

If there was no Israel, the Jewish people would be unhappyThat is a small price to pay. a bargain
Im a buyer.

They are not considered terrorists for fighting for what they believe in. Many peoples and countries have done that. They are considered terrorists for their methods, which is trying to make political points and statements by murdering innocent civilians.

Just look at Northern Ireland. Just like the Palestinians, they are fighting for what they believe in, but are still considered terrorists.

If you dont care if they are wiped out- then you would take no action to prevent jews from being killed for being jewish- this is tacit consent to the murder of jews.

I have the same feelings towards Jews as Drunk Commies has towards Muslims.

I have the same feelings towards Jews as Drunk Commies has towards Muslims.
Yeah, but I'm not trying to act like I'm a good guy.

The Isrealis are also fighting for what they believe in and kill innocent civillians in the process they are as much terrorists as the Palestinians. I would be unhappy for Jews not to have a homeland but seeming we have a homeland and have royally screwed up and as a result innocent people of both sides die it probably would be better if we didn't.

I have the same feelings towards Jews as Drunk Commies has towards Muslims.
Thats self evident from what you have already posted in the thread.
However you claimed that you do not support wiping out the jews, then post that you dont care if they are wiped out (tacit consent) can you see the contradiction that I am trying to make you aware of?

Has anyone actually read the full article and the reasons why the Middle East would be worse off without Isreal? Has anyone read it over again afterwards? I saw this article in this month's Foreign Policy magazine and immediately read it twice to catch anything I might have missed. And t seems as if half of you think that Joffe feels Isrealis are vindicated in doing whatever the hell they want, while the other half feels that it has been proven they need to be wiped out.

Both sides are wrong. Here are the following pages of the article and various ways the Middles East would be forever changed for the worse had Isreal never existed.

States vs. States:
Israel’s elimination from the regional balance would hardly bolster intra-Arab amity. The retraction of the colonial powers, Britain and France, in the mid-20th century left behind a bunch of young Arab states seeking to redraw the map of the region. From the very beginning, Syria laid claim to Lebanon. In 1970, only the Israeli military deterred Damascus from invading Jordan under the pretext of supporting a Palestinian uprising. Throughout the 1950s and 1960s, Nasser’s Egypt proclaimed itself the avatar of pan-Arabism, intervening in Yemen during the 1960s. Nasser’s successor, President Anwar Sadat, was embroiled in on-and-off clashes with Libya throughout the late 1970s. Syria marched into Lebanon in 1976 and then effectively annexed the country 15 years later, and Iraq launched two wars against fellow Muslim states: Iran in 1980, Kuwait in 1990. The war against Iran was the longest conventional war of the 20th century. None of these conflicts is related to the Israeli-Palestinian one. Indeed, Israel’s disappearance would only liberate military assets for use in such internal rivalries.
So we have the various Arab states attacking each other in land grabs. That's sure to bring peace and emnity to the region....

Believers vs. Believers:
Those who think that the Middle East conflict is a “Muslim-Jewish thing” had better take a closer look at the score card: 14 years of sectarian bloodshed in Lebanon; Saddam’s campaign of extinction against the Shia in the aftermath of the first Gulf War; Syria’s massacre of 20,000 people in the Muslim Brotherhood stronghold of Hama in 1982; and terrorist violence against Egyptian Christians in the 1990s. Add to this tally intraconfessional oppression, such as in Saudi Arabia, where the fundamentalist Wahhabi sect wields the truncheon of state power to inflict its dour lifestyle on the less devout.
Hmmm.......the various regimes smashing the people. You know, that wouldn't change if Isreal were gone.

Ideologies vs. Ideologies:
Zionism is not the only “ism” in the region, which is rife with competing ideologies. Even though the Baathist parties in Syria and Iraq sprang from the same fascist European roots, both have vied for precedence in the Middle East. Nasser wielded pan-Arabism-cum-socialism against the Arab nation-state. And both Baathists and Nasserites have opposed the monarchies, such as in Jordan. Khomeinist Iran and Wahhabite Saudi Arabia remain mortal enemies. What is the connection to the Arab-Israeli conflict? Nil, with the exception of Hamas, a terror army of the faithful once supported by Israel as a rival to the Palestine Liberation Organization and now responsible for many suicide bombings in Israel. But will Hamas disband once Israel is gone? Hardly. Hamas has bigger ambitions than eliminating the “Zionist entity.” The organization seeks nothing less than a unified Arab state under a regime of God.

Ohhh, nasty. Hamas will just keep on trucking, blowing up people until the end of their organization. And look at that. Various Arab states will still dislike each other. And with no Isreal to hold them back with its military projections.....wars aren't fun kids.

Reactionary Utopia vs. Modernity:
A common enmity toward Israel is the only thing that prevents Arab modernizers and traditionalists from tearing their societies apart. Fundamentalists vie against secularists and reformist Muslims for the fusion of mosque and state under the green flag of the Prophet. And a barely concealed class struggle pits a minuscule bourgeoisie and millions of unemployed young men against the power structure, usually a form of statist cronyism that controls the means of production. Far from creating tensions, Israel actually contains the antagonisms in the world around it.
So if Isreal goes bye-bye, we have internal strife. Lots of it. That's always nice to have happen.

Regimes vs. Peoples:
The existence of Israel cannot explain the breadth and depth of the Mukhabarat states (secret police states) throughout the Middle East. With the exceptions of Jordan, Morocco, and the Gulf sheikdoms, which gingerly practice an enlightened monarchism, all Arab countries (plus Iran and Pakistan) are but variations of despotism—from the dynastic dictatorship of Syria to the authoritarianism of Egypt. Intranational strife in Algeria has killed nearly 100,000, with no letup in sight. Saddam’s victims are said to number 300,000. After the Khomeinists took power in 1979, Iran was embroiled not only in the Iran-Iraq War but also in barely contained civil unrest into the 1980s. Pakistan is an explosion waiting to happen. Ruthless suppression is the price of stability in this region.

Again, it would take a florid imagination to surmise that factoring Israel out of the Middle East equation would produce liberal democracy in the region. It might be plausible to argue that the dialectic of enmity somehow favors dictatorship in “frontline states” such as Egypt and Syria—governments that invoke the proximity of the “Zionist threat” as a pretext to suppress dissent. But how then to explain the mayhem in faraway Algeria, the bizarre cult-of-personality regime in Libya, the pious kleptocracy of Saudi Arabia, the clerical despotism of Iran, or democracy’s enduring failure to take root in Pakistan? Did Israel somehow cause the various putsches that produced the republic of fear in Iraq? If Jordan, the state sharing the longest border with Israel, can experiment with constitutional monarchy, why not Syria?

It won’t do to lay the democracy and development deficits of the Arab world on the doorstep of the Jewish state. Israel is a pretext, not a cause, and therefore its dispatch will not heal the self-inflicted wounds of the Arab-Islamic world. Nor will the mild version of “statocide,” a binational state, do the trick—not in view of the “civilization of clashes” (to borrow a term from British historian Niall Ferguson) that is the hallmark of Arab political culture. The mortal struggle between Israelis and Palestinians would simply shift from the outside to the inside.
Pretty much speaks for itself. Regimes= Nasty to people in some cases. why? Sure isn't Isreal.

So really, let's keep this on the actual topic and not spew invective at one another. Keep it on the facts. and for the people who clearly did not read the article, go read more then just the lead paragraph. Read it in its entirety. Then go read it again.

The Isrealis are also fighting for what they believe in and kill innocent civillians in the process they are as much terrorists as the Palestinians. I would be unhappy for Jews not to have a homeland but seeming we have a homeland and have royally screwed up and as a result innocent people of both sides die it probably would be better if we didn't.
Can't you see the difference between shooting a woman and her daughters on their way to vote and hitting civilians in the crossfire when you are engaging enemy troops in urban combat? Are the two equivalent in your eyes?

Is it possible to find two countries (peoples) that are more willing to tear each other apart. I think not. I visited Haifa, Israel this summer and found that the people of both groups can live together. Too many times it is the politics that keeps them apart.

O FRIEND!
In the garden of thy heart plant naught but the rose of love, and from the nightingale of affection and desire loosen not thy hold.

(Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words)

One name - Jenin

Congratulations, you just won the most likely to believe propaganda award your commerative dictionary w/o the word gullible is being sent immediately.

http://www.time.com/time/2002/jenin/story.html (this is a pretty left-leaning article by the way)

Even the UN, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty Internations admit the massacre was total crap...The Palestineans, like many Arab governments, make all kinds of random propaganda to coverup their terrible leadership.

Also, I want to comment that the other Arab Countries with their absurd amount of real estate room do not want the Palestineans.
If you had million plus people that you cared for, wouldn't you offer them some room? The other Arab countries want to just use them to portray the Jews as the reason why their state of living totally stinks.

It is one thing to disagree with policy of Israel, but questioning its existence as "a travesty" or some such lingo as many do is plain anti-semitism. And Jews can hate other Jews with the same zeal as any...just look at Noam Chomsky and the like... The idea of Jewish domination is really funny. We control the following to my count: soviet union, Republican Party, Democratic Party, the media, Israel, the Nazis (b/c the holocaust is really overrated ;)), the Catholic Church (I could go on for a long time)...
I think someone stated that if the Jews were wiped out then problems would cease...this makes sense if you believe that Jews are to blame for anything.

Also, Israel has like 6 million people and 50+ political parties (most with seats in the parliament of Israel, the Knesset including the Communists, pro-Marijuana, Religious Parties, Secular Parties, Arab Parties etc.). Hardly a beacon of hatred and facism.

And before the intifada especially (still largely now), a Palestinean could easily be a doctor, a businessmen, or any job in Israel (even be in the Parliament!!!...I'd like to see any other country accept people in the parliament who don't like the country's existence.) Arabic is an official language of Israel, Muslims are free to practice their religion (not the ones who blow up people though)...The case that a non-terrorist normal (non-royal) Arab is better off in Israel than in Saudi Arabia or Syria...well, I'd make that case.

You are wrong about there being two sides. I don't want either side wiped out. I believe that Isreal has the right to protect itself from the aggression shown to it by the Arab States around it, I also believe it has a right to protect its citizens from terrorism (I do realise blowing up buses and resturants is wrong). I also believe that Isreal does not have the right to drive the Palestinians into enclaves and to behave in the way it does.

Ok I admit I was wrong about Jenin.

There is a differance, though. The Israelis do not intentionally target civilians, whereas the Palestinian group send their suicide bombers onto buses, into crowded markets, to places of worship and to schools. If you cannot see the differance in methods, then you are blind, sorry to say.

Isreal has the chance to turn itself into a shining example of democracy to the rest of the middle-east. As you say it has a very inclusive parliament and much better civil rights than its neighbours. The main bone of contention is the right of return wereby anyone with a Jewish mother (the criteria to be classed as an ethnic Jew) can claim citizenship in Isreal, on the other hand Palestinians cannot claim rights to land they lived on before 1948. If Isreal solves this and rises above the mindless violence of Hamas etc it can show the world how a country should work. With that thought I'm going to sign off for the night.

OK maybe I wont sign of for the night. How can you say Isreal doesn't target civillians what about the peace protestor shot by an Isreali sniper as he shepherded Palestinian troops to safety, or the BBC agent blown up by an isreali tank shell in Lebanon as he sat in his car?

Isreal has the chance to turn itself into a shining example of democracy to the rest of the middle-east. As you say it has a very inclusive parliament and much better civil rights than its neighbours. The main bone of contention is the right of return wereby anyone with a Jewish mother (the criteria to be classed as an ethnic Jew) can claim citizenship in Isreal, on the other hand Palestinians cannot claim rights to land they lived on before 1948. If Isreal solves this and rises above the mindless violence of Hamas etc it can show the world how a country should work. With that thought I'm going to sign off for the night.
There are at least two problems with right of return. First of all, Israel is supposed to be a Jewish homeland. Allowing so many palestinians in (who breed faster than the Israelis) would change Israel demographicaly into a palestinian state. Secondly, many of those palestinians' families left Israel so that the invading arab armies could wipe out the jews without worrying about killing any of their fellow arabs. I wouldn't want traitors back in my country. Who knows if they're planning to opress or eradicate the resident Jewish population once they get in?

Isreal should be a Jewish homeland, it doesn't none Jews shouldn't be allowed to live there does it? Britain is a British homeland but it doesn't say French people can't live there.

OK maybe I wont sign of for the night. How can you say Isreal doesn't target civillians what about the peace protestor shot by an Isreali sniper as he shepherded Palestinian troops to safety, or the BBC agent blown up by an isreali tank shell in Lebanon as he sat in his car?
I don't know the details of the case, but helping the enemy to safety during a war makes you one of the enemy, so the peace protestor seems to have made himself into a combatant. As for the BBC reporter, was it known to the Israelis that he was a neutral person? Don't you take the risk of being killed when you report from a war zone?

The palestinians' treatment of journalists in Lebanon hasn't been exemplary either. Palestinian thugs once captured a journalist, tortured him to death, and sent photographs to other journalists as a warning not to criticise them too harshly.

This view that Palestinians automatically want to kill Jews is totally wrong. I have met other Jews that I feel more threatened by than Palestinians I have met.

Isreal should be a Jewish homeland, it doesn't none Jews shouldn't be allowed to live there does it? Britain is a British homeland but it doesn't say French people can't live there.
What if French people began ariving by the millions and if the French had a reputation for killing British people? Do you think they'd be so welcome? Let's compare apples to apples, shall we?

What if French people began ariving by the millions and if the French had a reputation for killing British people? Do you think they'd be so welcome? Let's compare apples to apples, shall we?
Replace the word French with Muslims and the word British with Non-muslims and you are actually describing current events ;)

'Don't you take the risk of being killed when you report from a war zone?'

No because it wasn't a war zone, this was when Isreal pulled out of Lebanon. The tank was on the Isreal side of the border and there was no combat taking place. The rest of the team led by the well known and respected war correspondent Jeremy Bowen had got out of the car and walked away from the road in order to make a report about the peaceful nature of the withdrawal (this wasn't in an area where Hizbullah were active), none of them were wearing flak jackets which is what they do if there is any reasonablr chance of combat.

'the enemy '

He was helping civillians.

'Don't you take the risk of being killed when you report from a war zone?'

No because it wasn't a war zone, this was when Isreal pulled out of Lebanon. The tank was on the Isreal side of the border and there was no combat taking place. The rest of the team led by the well known and respected war correspondent Jeremy Bowen had got out of the car and walked away from the road in order to make a report about the peaceful nature of the withdrawal (this wasn't in an area where Hizbullah were active), none of them were wearing flak jackets which is what they do if there is any reasonablr chance of combat.

'the enemy '

He was helping civillians.
You just contradicted yourself. In your previous post you said he was helping palestinian troops to safety.

Look, I am not trying to defend the actions of Palestinian terrorists, I think their tactics are disgusting. I am trying to challenge the view that Isreal can do what it wants towards Palestinian citizens because of the actions of terrorists. I am also trying to challenge the view that all Palestinian's and Muslims in general want to kill all Jews. I'm a Jew and I have many Muslim friends who know I am a Jew and are respectful of the fact I believe in the need for a Jewish homeland. The most anti-Jewish sentiments I recieve are from white Britons, but no one talks about building a wall around them do they?

'You just contradicted yourself. In your previous post you said he was helping palestinian troops to safety.'

Ahh good point, I'm very tired and originally wrote 'helping palestinian civillians not troops' but deleted the wrong bit. Yes if he had been helping someone who was intent on blowing up a schoolbus I wouldnt have a problem with him being shot.

Any comments?

Doesn't matter.

In fifty years Arab Israelis will out number Jewish Israelis and Israel ceases as a Jewish State. It's just the way things are. Once Arab Israelis have control of the Knesset they'll probably open the door for Palestinian immigration and Israel becomes just another of history's Jewish Ghettos.

Doesn't matter.

In fifty years Arab Israelis will out number Jewish Israelis and Israel ceases as a Jewish State. It's just the way things are. Once Arab Israelis have control of the Knesset they'll probably open the door for Palestinian immigration and Israel becomes just another of history's Jewish Ghettos.
True dat

'In fifty years Arab Israelis will out number Jewish Israelis'

Show us the numbers.

Doesn't matter.

In fifty years Arab Israelis will out number Jewish Israelis and Israel ceases as a Jewish State. It's just the way things are. Once Arab Israelis have control of the Knesset they'll probably open the door for Palestinian immigration and Israel becomes just another of history's Jewish Ghettos.
Yeah, but this ghetto uprising will put a big dent in the palestinian population. The Jews in Israel are well armed, tenacious, and many (most?) have excellent military training.

Jews constitute about four-fifths of the total population of Israel. Almost all the rest are Palestinian Arabs, of whom most (roughly three-fourths) are Muslim; the remaining Arabs are Christians and Druze, who each comprise only a small fraction of the total population. Arabs constitute the overwhelming majority of the occupied territories of the West Bank and Gaza. …

From http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=23076

'Yeah, but this ghetto uprising will put a big dent in the palestinian population. The Jews in Israel are well armed, tenacious, and many (most?) have excellent military training.'

This is hopeless, you are talking like you would about a computer game. You seem to have no comprehension that people of both sides are dying needlessly.

'Yeah, but this ghetto uprising will put a big dent in the palestinian population. The Jews in Israel are well armed, tenacious, and many (most?) have excellent military training.'

This is hopeless, you are talking like you would about a computer game. You seem to have no comprehension that people of both sides are dying needlessly.
Like I said before. I'm not claiming to be a good guy on this issue.

GET RID OF ISRAEL. The are the reason that the Arab world are against the UK. We were good friends with them before the americans came and hashed up europe. I say we invade them and get rid of the 'Jewish State'. Its safe to live in europe now! You dont need to live in the middle east any more!

'Like I said before. I'm not claiming to be a good guy on this issue.'

I'm not claiming to be the good guy, I'm trying to make an argument based on reason and my own beliefs. You are being insensitive and immature.

GET RID OF ISRAEL. The are the reason that the Arab world are against the UK. We were good friends with them before the americans came and hashed up europe. I say we invade them and get rid of the 'Jewish State'. Its safe to live in europe now! You dont need to live in the middle east any more!
Good idea. Let's uproot an entire nation of democratic, productive people because some savages have threatened you.

Good idea. Let's uproot an entire nation of democratic, productive people because some savages have threatened you.
Wanna bet he doesnt twig your being sarcastic?

'Like I said before. I'm not claiming to be a good guy on this issue.'

I'm not claiming to be the good guy, I'm trying to make an argument based on reason and my own beliefs. You are being insensitive and immature.
I'm plenty sensative toward people who don't celebrate when terrorists crash planes into my countrymen. Those who do? Screw them. Immature? That's your opinion, and I guess your entitled to it.

Savages? Excuse me? The arab world was the most intelligent and advanced race on the planet untill around the 15th century. Yet again you lot prove to be completely ignorant when it comes to matters outside your sphere of influence. There are 40,000,000 Shia Muslims in the world. There are 12,000,000 Jews. Only 2,000,000 of those live in Israel. There are 5,600,000 who live in America! So you can't say that the Jews need to control the land of israel because only a sixth of all of the Jews in the world live there! Tell them that if they want to live in the holy land, that theyd better start getting on with the people who have lived there since the dawn of time, not since 1946!

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"...

I think that sums Israel up. In concept it's a fantastic idea. But then so is crack cocaine and anal sex. While it's doubtless that the Jews and Zionists that believe in the concept of having a Holy Land deserved Israel, it still baffles me how we view the Israeli occupation of Palestine as legitimate. We didn't tolerate South African racism, and we don't tolerate any other form. But it's OK for the fucking Israelis to systematically destroy Palestinian homes, interrogate people randomly and even murder children, on the basis that extremist groups give occasionally launch misguided "terror" attacks.

I'm sorry, but I've read quite a bit about "the struggle" that various "occupied" nations have endured over the 20th century, and Palestine is the oly one that has really tugged at my heartstrings. It's got to the point now where when I hear of Hamas attacks I shake my head sadly. When I hear of Israeli terrorist group activity (oh and they do exist, by the way) I get angry. When I hear of children on both sides being killed in cold blood I am livid with rage.

Yet when I hear of an Israeli soldier blown up by a bomb... well... I just can't help thinking about Tom Hurndall (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1374851,00.html).

"Live by the sword..."

www.electronicintifada.com

'In fifty years Arab Israelis will out number Jewish Israelis'

Show us the numbers.

well this is the best under the radar future story on the planet.

This link is Newsmax, which admittedly is right wing alarmist and puts Arab majority as early as the 2020s.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/10/18/181802.shtml


This one is a bit calmer.

http://www.planbleu.org/pdf/demo_uk_isr.pdf


This one tries to refute the possibility without numbers.

http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-conflict/Articles/Glick-2005-01-14.asp


To break the actual data down, there are about 4.75 million Israeli Jews and about 0.9 million Israeli Arabs. The Arab population has grown 9 fold since independence without immigration. Jewish Israeli population has grown about four fold since independence with immigration. The Arab population growth is put at 4.5% and the Jewish at around 2.6%. The average age of Jewish Israelis is 30, while it's 18 for Arab Israelis.

The Arab Israelis are about to head into a baby boom, think post WWII America when the population skyrocketed. What's more the Arab Israeli population has suddenly become aware that if each young couple has as many kids as possible they are within two generations of political control. In fact they are within one generation of out numbering the Likud or Labor.

Savages? Excuse me? The arab world was the most intelligent and advanced race on the planet untill around the 15th century. Yet again you lot prove to be completely ignorant when it comes to matters outside your sphere of influence. There are 40,000,000 Shia Muslims in the world. There are 12,000,000 Jews. Only 2,000,000 of those live in Israel. There are 5,600,000 who live in America! So you can't say that the Jews need to control the land of israel because only a sixth of all of the Jews in the world live there! Tell them that if they want to live in the holy land, that theyd better start getting on with the people who have lived there since the dawn of time, not since 1946!
Yeah, muslims are plenty advanced, for the middle ages. The two million Jews in Israel don't want to leave, and nobody's going to force them out. It is the Jewish homeland now. Deal with it.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"...

I think that sums Israel up. In concept it's a fantastic idea. But then so is crack cocaine and anal sex. While it's doubtless that the Jews and Zionists that believe in the concept of having a Holy Land deserved Israel, it still baffles me how we view the Israeli occupation of Palestine as legitimate. We didn't tolerate South African racism, and we don't tolerate any other form. But it's OK for the fucking Israelis to systematically destroy Palestinian homes, interrogate people randomly and even murder children, on the basis that extremist groups give occasionally launch misguided "terror" attacks.

I'm sorry, but I've read quite a bit about "the struggle" that various "occupied" nations have endured over the 20th century, and Palestine is the oly one that has really tugged at my heartstrings. It's got to the point now where when I hear of Hamas attacks I shake my head sadly. When I hear of Israeli terrorist group activity (oh and they do exist, by the way) I get angry. When I hear of children on both sides being killed in cold blood I am livid with rage.

Yet when I hear of an Israeli soldier blown up by a bomb... well... I just can't help thinking about Tom Hurndall (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1374851,00.html).

"Live by the sword..."

www.electronicintifada.com
Israelis are racist? What racist regime lets the people they opress hold seats in the national parliament?

Israeli terrorism? Nope, Israel targets the terrorists. Palestinians target the civilians. It's not always that clear cut, but in general that's the way it goes.

Yeah, muslims are plenty advanced, for the middle ages. The two million Jews in Israel don't want to leave, and nobody's going to force them out. It is the Jewish homeland now. Deal with it.

Im not saying they cant live there, but if they think they can wave their american funded tank barrels around Gaza and the West bank, building a wall that has been outlawed by the UN, stopping people going where they have been commuting to for thousands of years, then they can think again!

I see there's a lot of hating in these forums. Maybe it's the peace-loving Canadian in me that's talking but I just hope Palestine and Israel can diplomatically come to an agreement now that Abbas is in charge. Abbas has to deal with the Palestinian extremist groups and Israel has to remain quiet until Abbas makes major changes in the way things are functioning in his country.

Yeah, muslims are plenty advanced, for the middle ages. The two million Jews in Israel don't want to leave, and nobody's going to force them out. It is the Jewish homeland now. Deal with it.

That's 4.75 million Jews in Israel.

Im not saying they cant live there, but if they think they can wave their american funded tank barrels around Gaza and the West bank, building a wall that has been outlawed by the UN, stopping people going where they have been commuting to for thousands of years, then they can think again!
The UN? All muslim nations vote in a bloc against Israel. Most European ones follow suit in order to keep oil flowing in and exports to the middle east flowing out. The wall was built to reduce terrorism against Israeli civilians. Guess what? It's working.

I see there's a lot of hating in these forums. Maybe it's the peace-loving Canadian in me that's talking but I just hope Palestine and Israel can diplomatically come to an agreement now that Abbas is in charge. Abbas has to deal with the Palestinian extremist groups and Israel has to remain quiet until Abbas makes major changes in the way things are functioning in his country.
Last I heard Abbas is trying to use his security forces to stop Islamic Jihad and Hamas from firing qassam rockets indiscriminately into Israel. Unless he can do that, there's little chance for peace.

Last I heard Abbas is trying to use his security forces to stop Islamic Jihad and Hamas from firing qassam rockets indiscriminately into Israel. Unless he can do that, there's little chance for peace.

I just hope Abbas doesnt pick up where Arafat left off.

Israelis are racist? What racist regime lets the people they opress hold seats in the national parliament?

Israeli terrorism? Nope, Israel targets the terrorists. Palestinians target the civilians. It's not always that clear cut, but in general that's the way it goes.
You are seriously taking the piss, or seriously misguided, fella.

If you think for a minute that Zionists don't intentionally butcher Palestinians then you need to open your mind, not your eyes. And they do this in the name of Judaism. And that, to Jews (http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/) is intolerable in "The Holy Land".

As for "seats in parliament"... What seats? What political sway does any Palestinian have in Israeli politics? What influence does a Palestinian bureaucrat have in the decisions made in Gaza, Jerusalem, Ramallah, Hebron, or even Nablus or Balata? Seriously... I'm interested...

And if Israel targets terrorists, how come Kach and Kahane Chai (http://www.ict.org.il/inter_ter/orgdet.cfm?orgid=19) are given an almost free license to dispense their "justice" at whomsoever they choose from "undesirables"?

You want to take a good long look at other "conflicts", I swear. And I'd fucking love to know your ancestry.

I get the impression, that you are positing an alternate universe, wherein the state of Israel did not exist. Interesting premise.

However, the current state of affairs between the Israelis and the Palestinians, is a result of the Israelis being the descendents of Isaac, and the Palestinians being the descendants of Ishmael. Isaac and Ishmael were half-brothers.

However, Ishmael was born first, and Isaac was born shortly thereafter. God declared that Ishmael would be a wild man, with his hand against every man, and every man would have his hand against Ishmael.

Disturbing? It ought to be.

It already is. I dunno... Sibling rivalries...

Get them all on Springer. He'll solve it all, I swear... ;)

The wall was built to reduce terrorism against Israeli civilians. Guess what? It's working.

And if something works well, it's the right thing to do isn't it? Killing people who were not able to work or contribute to society would also 'work' so therefore we should do it, right? Actually I shouldn't have asked that, you'll probably think it is a great idea...

I'm really glad I live in a country that doesn't blindly support Israel, ignores the Israeli breaches of human rights and thinks it is okay to for them to treat the Palestinians the way they do because

1. Apparently some ancient myth says that a man flying around in the sky casting spells gave it to them

2. A tiny minority of them are terroists and

3. The either subtle or not so subtle insinuation that arabs are sub human and therefore do not matter. Hey, isn't that what Hitler thought about Jews?

Oh, and for the person who seems to think Muslims, who all hate Britons, are taking over Britain - stop being such a cowardly xenophobic weakling.

And if something works well, it's the right thing to do isn't it? Killing people who were not able to work or contribute to society would also 'work' so therefore we should do it, right?false analogy (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/falsean.htm) It does not follow that supporting an act on the grounds of utillity = supporting ignoring moral considerations.

I'm really glad I live in a country that doesn't blindly support Israel, ignores the Israeli breaches of human rights and thinks it is okay to for them to treat the Palestinians the way they do prejudicial language (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/pl.htm) Support of Israel != blind supportApparently some ancient myth says that a man flying around in the sky casting spells gave it to them

2. A tiny minority of them are terroists and

3. The either subtle or not so subtle insinuation that arabs are sub human and therefore do not matter. Hey, isn't that what Hitler thought about Jews? straw man (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/straw.htm)

Oh, and for the person who seems to think Muslims, who all hate Britons, are taking over Britain - stop being such a cowardly xenophobic weakling.
argumentum ad hominem (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/attack.htm)

Apologies then ...here is a 'refined' version of my post.

Just because something works in practice, does not make it a neccessarily good thing to do, therefore just because the wall in Israel cuts terroism, it is not morally justifiable.

I'm really glad I live in a country that doesn't support Israel, ignores the Israeli breaches of human rights and thinks it is okay to for them to treat the Palestinians the way they do because

1. The bible says that it was given to the Jews by God

2. A tiny minority of them are terroists and

3. It seems to me that some people who are pro israel are just prejudiced against arabs

Oh, and for the person who seems to think Muslims all hate Britain and are 'taking over'- why do you say this? British muslims in my experience have no hatred of white people at all, and if they did do so, would there not have being terroist attacks here by now? The only evidence I see of this is a tiny amount of racist attacks in Oldham, Manchester on white people and these were universally condemned. You could say the Bradford riot is an example, but that was after severe provocation from the National Front and police. Overall, I see far far more racism against muslims by white people than racism against white people by muslims, and not just because whites are the majority either. There is still relatively little on both sides.

As for them 'taking over' - only 7% of all British are of an ethnic minority and there are many different minorities, not all muslim. This if anything contributes towards ethnic diversity and is a good thing - they are certainly not 'taking over'

In the end, it just seems like a paranoid delusion and an excuse for prejudice and xenophobia.

Happy now?

http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=440

A little old, but the current proportions are most likely very similar to the ones from a year and a half ago.

You are seriously taking the piss, or seriously misguided, fella.

If you think for a minute that Zionists don't intentionally butcher Palestinians then you need to open your mind, not your eyes. And they do this in the name of Judaism. And that, to Jews (http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/) is intolerable in "The Holy Land".

As for "seats in parliament"... What seats? What political sway does any Palestinian have in Israeli politics? What influence does a Palestinian bureaucrat have in the decisions made in Gaza, Jerusalem, Ramallah, Hebron, or even Nablus or Balata? Seriously... I'm interested...

And if Israel targets terrorists, how come Kach and Kahane Chai (http://www.ict.org.il/inter_ter/orgdet.cfm?orgid=19) are given an almost free license to dispense their "justice" at whomsoever they choose from "undesirables"?

You want to take a good long look at other "conflicts", I swear. And I'd fucking love to know your ancestry.

Too right. Drunk Commies is a Jew.

Apologies then ...here is a 'refined' version of my post.

Just because something works in practice, does not make it a neccessarily good thing to do, therefore just because the wall in Israel cuts terroism, it is not morally justifiable. Anonymous Authority (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/anon.htm) I dont see in your post any evidence that "it is not morally justifiable"

I'm really glad I live in a country that doesn't support Israel, ignores the Israeli breaches of human rights and thinks it is okay to for them to treat the Palestinians the way they do again prejudicial language (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/pl.htm) It does not follow that a country that supports Israel is therefore ignoring Israeli breaches of human rights nor does it follow that a nation supporting Israel believes it is ok to treat Palestinians in any malign fashion
1. The bible says that it was given to the Jews by God straw man (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/straw.htm) This is a debate on current events and not theology.

2. A tiny minority of them are terroists
straw man again (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/straw.htm) the argument that it is desirable or morally correct to mistreat palestinians who are not terrorists has not been made.

3. It seems to me that some people who are pro israel are just prejudiced against arabs straw man (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/straw.htm) although I agree with you that their are people who support Israel purely out of anti arab bias, it does not follow that support for Israel is therefore wrong, or that support for Palestine is therefore right.

Oh, and for the person who seems to think Muslims all hate Britain and are 'taking over'- why do you say this? Seriously? I was joking ;)British muslims in my experience have no hatred of white people at all,unrepresentative sample (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/unrep.htm) one persons personal experience does not signify a trend, or the absence of a trend. and if they did do so, would there not have being terroist attacks here by now? petitio principii (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/begging.htm) It does not follow that the existance of anti-nonmuslim feelings amongst muslims in Britain would manifest in terrorist acts. Overall, I see far far more racism against muslims by white people than racism against white people by muslims, and not just because whites are the majority either.
unrepresentative sample ( http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/unrep.htm) again, one persons own experience is not proof of any trend or lack therof


In the end, it just seems like a paranoid delusion and an excuse for prejudice and xenophobia. argumentum ad hominem (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/attack.htm) it has not been demonstrated why this would seem like paranoid delusion or why it would be an excuse for prejudice and xenophobia (prejudice and xenophobia in this context both being prejudicial language (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/pl.htm)


Happy now?
Hopefully ;)

Anyone who thinks there is a possiblity for peace now that Araftat is gone, has their head in the sand. Sharon is treating Abbas just as bad as he treated Arafat no matter what he does, if not worse. The Israeli right wants peace less then anyone despite their constants wailing about terrorism becasue a peace deal would mean an end to their land theft. Sharon is obviously trying to destroy any hope of a peace deal, by doing crazy shit like announcing huge new land grabs like this: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/530147.html

building a wall that has been outlawed by the UN

Actually it's almost all fence.

I shall first imagine a world without the entire Middle East first.

I shall first imagine a world without the entire Middle East first.

Imagine a world without oil.

You are seriously taking the piss, or seriously misguided, fella.

If you think for a minute that Zionists don't intentionally butcher Palestinians then you need to open your mind, not your eyes. And they do this in the name of Judaism. And that, to Jews (http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/) is intolerable in "The Holy Land".

As for "seats in parliament"... What seats? What political sway does any Palestinian have in Israeli politics? What influence does a Palestinian bureaucrat have in the decisions made in Gaza, Jerusalem, Ramallah, Hebron, or even Nablus or Balata? Seriously... I'm interested...

And if Israel targets terrorists, how come Kach and Kahane Chai (http://www.ict.org.il/inter_ter/orgdet.cfm?orgid=19) are given an almost free license to dispense their "justice" at whomsoever they choose from "undesirables"?

You want to take a good long look at other "conflicts", I swear. And I'd fucking love to know your ancestry.


According to your link Israel recognizes these Jewish groups as "Terrorist" organizations, as well as the US and every EU nation. They jailed Rabbi Kahane for conspiracy before his death and kicked him out of Israel when he was released.

If you are anti Israel then by all means support peace and the financial well being of the Arab Israeli minority that in two generations will control Israel. They are breeding and their infant mortality rate is low, but the more food and money they have, the faster they will get the job done.

If you are pro Israel than by all means support peace because immigration and the end of emigration are the only hopes to hang onto the Jewish State as long as possible. This is ultimately futile, but give it a go. Who knows maybe the Messiah will finally show up, and it just won't matter.

Either way the goals of both sides are only served by peace.

I shall first imagine a world without the entire Middle East first.
The you shall find it as easy to find a world without 50s South-Eat Asia, 60s Europe, 70s Northern Ireland and 80s Afghanistan, you narrow-minded teenie. I presume. ;)

I'd like to clone an army of Hitlers and use it to attack Israel.

GET RID OF ISRAEL. The are the reason that the Arab world are against the UK. We were good friends with them before the americans came and hashed up europe. I say we invade them and get rid of the 'Jewish State'. Its safe to live in europe now! You dont need to live in the middle east any more!
Exactamente

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"...I think that sums Israel up.

...In concept it's a fantastic idea. But then so is crack cocaine and anal sex. While it's doubtless that the Jews and Zionists that believe in the concept of having a Holy Land deserved Israel, it still baffles me how we view the Israeli occupation of Palestine as legitimate. We didn't tolerate South African racism, and we don't tolerate any other form. But it's OK for the fucking Israelis to systematically destroy Palestinian homes, interrogate people randomly and even murder children, on the basis that extremist groups give occasionally launch misguided "terror" attacks.
....
Yet when I hear of an Israeli soldier blown up by a bomb... well... I just can't help thinking about Tom Hurndall (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1374851,00.html).

"Live by the sword..."

Israel causes more pain than Anal Sex, and more deaths than Crack Cocaine.

Israel causes more pain than Anal Sex, and more deaths than Crack Cocaine.
Hence the "Good intentions" quote first. ;)

http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=440

A little old, but the current proportions are most likely very similar to the ones from a year and a half ago.

I think maybe people should like at statistics rather than using rhetoric and logical fallacies to back themselves up.

Either way the goals of both sides are only served by peace.
i have to agree with the other guy, peace doersnt benefit israel at all. it would lead to discussions on a palestinian state which means they dont get to keep bunches of land that isnt theirs and they dont use but to kick palestinians off of. and it would lead to them not being able to villify the palestinians and get everyone to stick up for poor, abused israel

^I think maybe people should like at statistics rather than using rhetoric and logical fallacies to back themselves up.

I think maybe people should look at statistics rather than using rhetoric and logical fallacies to back themselves up.
fixed.

I completely agree with the opinion expressed in the article of Josef Joffe.

You are seriously taking the piss, or seriously misguided, fella.

If you think for a minute that Zionists don't intentionally butcher Palestinians then you need to open your mind, not your eyes. And they do this in the name of Judaism. And that, to Jews (http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/) is intolerable in "The Holy Land".

As for "seats in parliament"... What seats? What political sway does any Palestinian have in Israeli politics? What influence does a Palestinian bureaucrat have in the decisions made in Gaza, Jerusalem, Ramallah, Hebron, or even Nablus or Balata? Seriously... I'm interested...

And if Israel targets terrorists, how come Kach and Kahane Chai (http://www.ict.org.il/inter_ter/orgdet.cfm?orgid=19) are given an almost free license to dispense their "justice" at whomsoever they choose from "undesirables"?

You want to take a good long look at other "conflicts", I swear. And I'd fucking love to know your ancestry.
My ancestry is southern Italian and Sicilian. As for what sway arabs hold in the Knesset, they each hold just as much as any other member. Israel does target terrorists. Look at what happened to Meyer Kahane. He was jailed then deported.

And if something works well, it's the right thing to do isn't it? Killing people who were not able to work or contribute to society would also 'work' so therefore we should do it, right? Actually I shouldn't have asked that, you'll probably think it is a great idea...

I'm really glad I live in a country that doesn't blindly support Israel, ignores the Israeli breaches of human rights and thinks it is okay to for them to treat the Palestinians the way they do because

1. Apparently some ancient myth says that a man flying around in the sky casting spells gave it to them

2. A tiny minority of them are terroists and

3. The either subtle or not so subtle insinuation that arabs are sub human and therefore do not matter. Hey, isn't that what Hitler thought about Jews?

Oh, and for the person who seems to think Muslims, who all hate Britons, are taking over Britain - stop being such a cowardly xenophobic weakling.
When your people are being slaughtered by suicide bombers, snipers, and squads of armed men you have to do something. The wall is a much more humane option than going in and crushing all resistance with force.
BTW, I'm not a theist. I don't beleive in god and don't care about claims that a piece of land was given to somebody by the sky wizard.

Too right. Drunk Commies is a Jew.
Drunk Commies is actually a US citizen, and atheist, and of Italian descent. What the fuck are you?

Imagine a world without oil.
Oil can now be manufactured from garbage efficiently. Check out Changing World Technologies' website.

Drunk Commies is actually a US citizen, and atheist, and of Italian descent. What the fuck are you?

I'm a Canadian citizen, Buddhist, born in Great Britain, Moved to Canada at Age 6.

Oil can now be manufactured from garbage efficiently. Check out Changing World Technologies' website.

That's pretty cool but if I were made Queen of the World then I would do away with all vehicles! Bwahahaha!

I'll permit bikes and boats and maybe the Wright(sp?) brothers plane.

GET RID OF ISRAEL. The are the reason that the Arab world are against the UK. We were good friends with them before the americans came and hashed up europe. I say we invade them and get rid of the 'Jewish State'. Its safe to live in europe now! You dont need to live in the middle east any more!
How safe can it be for them in Europe when you're already about to sell them out because some terrorists threatened you?

Drunk Commies is actually a US citizen, and atheist, and of Italian descent. What the fuck are you?


I was raised Catholic, became Baha'i, but if their coming for the Jews they can take me too. Same goes if they come for the Muslims. Glory not in this that you love your country, but that you live mankind. Baha'u'llah

the world wouldn't be any more peaceful with out isreale there would would still be haterd and death. its human nature to opresse and where there is oppression there is passion and where there is passion the is hatered

Judaism is cool. I like a c**k up my an*s-hole. I f**k gentiles with my genitalia.

Judaism is cool. I like a c**k up my an*s-hole. I f**k gentiles with my genitalia.
Is there something you're not telling us?

Judaism is cool. I like a c**k up my an*s-hole. I f**k gentiles with my genitalia.
You do release you can type all those words without the ** ?

You do release you can type all those words without the ** ?

He's censoring his own cursing. Fair enough.

I am a US citizen, and atheist, and of Italian descent. What the fuck are you?Im George Bush...the Moron.

He's censoring his own cursing. Fair enough.
Its confusing though- why would he want a cook up his anushole and why does he fork gentiles? dammit the people have a right to know :D

Its confusing though- why would he want a cook up his anushole and why does he fork gentiles? dammit the people have a right to know :D

I guess he's a little :headbang:

GET RID OF ISRAEL. The are the reason that the Arab world are against the UK. We were good friends with them before the americans came and hashed up europe. I say we invade them and get rid of the 'Jewish State'. Its safe to live in europe now! You dont need to live in the middle east any more!
Right. And completely ignore the rising anti-semitism throughout Europe? Please.

Don't act like Europe is all pure and good. It is the cause of most of the world's problems due simply to its last, oh, 1000 years of history.

Savages? Excuse me? The arab world was the most intelligent and advanced race on the planet untill around the 15th century.
Welcome to the 21st Century where the power or intelligence of your ancestors means jack shit!

Yet again you lot prove to be completely ignorant when it comes to matters outside your sphere of influence.
Says the close minded socialist. Just go 'Heil Hitler' now.

There are 40,000,000 Shia Muslims in the world. There are 12,000,000 Jews. Only 2,000,000 of those live in Israel. There are 5,600,000 who live in America! So you can't say that the Jews need to control the land of israel because only a sixth of all of the Jews in the world live there! Tell them that if they want to live in the holy land, that theyd better start getting on with the people who have lived there since the dawn of time, not since 1946!
Yet those Jews have fought back and won against every act of aggression started by their neighboring Arab states. Don't act like Israel is the only one at fault. You are just proving your own bigotry and ignorance.

The Hebrew people originated in, suprisingly, what is now Iraq. *gasp*
After moving around, they were enslaved by numerous powers, then kicked out the Caanites from what is now Israel/Palestine.

So yes, the Middle East IS their original homeland area. Has been for quite a few thousand years. Until, you know, the Arabs, who were NOT natives to Palestine, kicked them out.

Yet those Jews have fought back and won against every act of aggression started by their neighboring Arab states. Don't act like Israel is the only one at fault. You are just proving your own bigotry and ignorance.


Saladin.

Saladin.
...who has nothing to do with this discussion, as he stopped the European Crusaders. Who, by my best estimates, were certainly not Jewish.

And oy! THe prejudicial views on both sides of this issue and the refusal for many to look at evidence or listen to dissenting viewpoints. Now I remember why I don't go into NS General.....

...who has nothing to do with this discussion, as he stopped the European Crusaders. Who, by my best estimates, were certainly not Jewish.

And oy! THe prejudicial views on both sides of this issue and the refusal for many to look at evidence or listen to dissenting viewpoints. Now I remember why I don't go into NS General.....

Is there some place else to go?

People underestimate the actual technology and progress Israel gives to the world. There is more to Israel than the conflict.

People underestimate the actual technology and progress Israel gives to the world. There is more to Israel than the conflict.Israel go away..and take all that technoshit with you.

Israel go away..and take all that technoshit with you.

Troll

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