NationStates Jolt Archive

OK, this is an honest to goodness, non-biased theological question I was recently wondering about. Thoughtful answers welcome. Mockery and flaming definitely not.

I was pondering the death of Christ lately (blame reading "Reformation", lot's of theological gubbins in there). Now, it's a given that Christ's crucifixtion resulted in the death of Christ-the-man. My question is: what happened to Christ-as-God in the 3 days that Christ-the-man was dead? This seems to me a pretty fundamental question that depending on how you answer may have serious ramifications for Christian doctrine, yet I haven't come across any discussion of it.

So, what's the take of Christians on here on it? And does anyone know of any good theological discussion of the question?

Cheers.

OK, this is an honest to goodness, non-biased theological question I was recently wondering about. Thoughtful answers welcome. Mockery and flaming definitely not.

I was pondering the death of Christ lately (blame reading "Reformation", lot's of theological gubbins in there). Now, it's a given that Christ's crucifixtion resulted in the death of Christ-the-man. My question is: what happened to Christ-as-God in the 3 days that Christ-the-man was dead? This seems to me a pretty fundamental question that depending on how you answer may have serious ramifications for Christian doctrine, yet I haven't come across any discussion of it.

So, what's the take of Christians on here on it? And does anyone know of any good theological discussion of the question?

Cheers.

Perhaps God wanted to make absolutely sure evryone knew Jesus was dead before he rose again. After all, you have to die in the first place to be resurrected.

OK, this is an honest to goodness, non-biased theological question I was recently wondering about. Thoughtful answers welcome. Mockery and flaming definitely not.

I was pondering the death of Christ lately (blame reading "Reformation", lot's of theological gubbins in there). Now, it's a given that Christ's crucifixtion resulted in the death of Christ-the-man. My question is: what happened to Christ-as-God in the 3 days that Christ-the-man was dead? This seems to me a pretty fundamental question that depending on how you answer may have serious ramifications for Christian doctrine, yet I haven't come across any discussion of it.

So, what's the take of Christians on here on it? And does anyone know of any good theological discussion of the question?

Cheers.

He descended into Hell to tell the Devil that God had defeated the Devil. Then on the third day he rose again.

He descended into Hell to tell the Devil that God had defeated the Devil. Then on the third day he rose again.

I think that may be Dante (correct me if I'm wrong). Is there any theology that's based on?

No, Hoslehan's right. According to the Bible, after Christ's body died, he descended into Hell on his own to verbally "defeat" Satan. Then he came back up and reanimated his body, e.g., resurrected.

I think that may be Dante (correct me if I'm wrong). Is there any theology that's based on?

Yes in Dante Jesus descends into hell, destroys the gate at the city of Dis, and takes Moses (and some other pre-christ people) from Limbo up into heavan.

Yes in Dante Jesus descends into hell, destroys the gate at the city of Dis, and takes Moses (and some other pre-christ people) from Limbo up into heavan.
IIRC, it doesn't actually happen in Dante, but is refered to have happened fairly early on in the story.

No, Hoslehan's right. According to the Bible, after Christ's body died, he descended into Hell on his own to verbally "defeat" Satan. Then he came back up and reanimated his body, e.g., resurrected.

OK, interesting, thanks for the info. What's the passage?

*Bump* BRB. In maybe 10 hours.

OK, this is an honest to goodness, non-biased theological question I was recently wondering about. Thoughtful answers welcome. Mockery and flaming definitely not.

I was pondering the death of Christ lately (blame reading "Reformation", lot's of theological gubbins in there). Now, it's a given that Christ's crucifixtion resulted in the death of Christ-the-man. My question is: what happened to Christ-as-God in the 3 days that Christ-the-man was dead? This seems to me a pretty fundamental question that depending on how you answer may have serious ramifications for Christian doctrine, yet I haven't come across any discussion of it.

So, what's the take of Christians on here on it? And does anyone know of any good theological discussion of the question?

Cheers.


I believe that if we look at it as a concept to be "sold" to Jewish theologians at the time, they were fascinated with numbers, and just springing back to life after the cross comes down wouldn't fit too well.

You could also ask why he died at that particular age, or why there were twelve disciples. Or why the number of the beast is 666, the number of a man. Or why the Trinity (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit).

As a programmer, I've always had the idea that the concept of man being created in God's image meant that we sprang from the same abstraction. This was further confirmed for me by reading Maimonides, where he notes that God cannot be anything except the abstraction of all abstractions, and that we are instances of that abstraction. Christians, therefore, have Jesus as an instance of God's abstraction.

It avoids the whole "bearded white guy in the sky" thing for me.

The number three appears arbitrary to outsiders. But it probably has some deep meaning that I'm too unread to know.

OK, this is an honest to goodness, non-biased theological question I was recently wondering about. Thoughtful answers welcome. Mockery and flaming definitely not.

I was pondering the death of Christ lately (blame reading "Reformation", lot's of theological gubbins in there). Now, it's a given that Christ's crucifixtion resulted in the death of Christ-the-man. My question is: what happened to Christ-as-God in the 3 days that Christ-the-man was dead? This seems to me a pretty fundamental question that depending on how you answer may have serious ramifications for Christian doctrine, yet I haven't come across any discussion of it.

So, what's the take of Christians on here on it? And does anyone know of any good theological discussion of the question?

Cheers.

Of course if you believe that the word Hell and Devil are metaphors for the struggle and decisions that we all must make between our spiritual nature and our material nature all of this takes on a different meaning. The references to the devil and hell become a warning that we should not let the material side of our nature conquer the spitural side. Christ's visits visit to the Devil then becomes an assurance that humans can prevail over the material side of their nature.

"Man is not a pre-existent being, but a newly produced and created being, consisting of two aspects or portions, the spiritual and material, which may be likened to hell and paradise; and he does not know whether he will be in hell or paradise. For instance, man is composed of evil as well as good, of darkness as well as light, of guidance as well as misleading; the most evil character is to be found in man, while the greatest and most excellent character is also found in him. We must see that the good qualities gain victory over the bad. If so, the man will become an "angel," but if the bad qualities conquer the good ones, then he will become a "devil." If the light conquers the darkness in man, of course he will be true light, and if the darkness conquers the light, he will be of the material."

(Compilations, Baha'i Scriptures, p. 499)

My question is: what happened to Christ-as-God in the 3 days that Christ-the-man was dead?


Apostles' Creed (if you believe...)

1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:
2. And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:
3. Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:
4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:
5. The third day he rose again from the dead:
6. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:
7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:
8. I believe in the Holy Ghost:
9. I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:
10. The forgiveness of sins:
1l. The resurrection of the body:
12. And the life everlasting. Amen.

I know this is a question for Christians but I just wanna state my opinion.

Muslims believe that there was no Christ-the-God. There was only Christ-the-man. God has no son/daughter/wife/husband/uncle/aunt/cousin/etc. And Christ-the-man never died. His body was mutilated, sure, but his soul was lifted into Heaven before he had a chance to die. And one day Jesus Christ will once again walk the Earth. Tadah!

I know this is a question for Christians but I just wanna state my opinion.

Muslims believe that there was no Christ-the-God. There was only Christ-the-man. God has no son/daughter/wife/husband/uncle/aunt/cousin/etc. And Christ-the-man never died. His body was mutilated, sure, but his soul was lifted into Heaven before he had a chance to die. And one day Jesus Christ will once again walk the Earth. Tadah!

And when the Christ walks on earth again how will you recognize Him since no one has ever seen Him. How will you be able to know that the new Christ is the same as the old Christ?

I believe that if we look at it as a concept to be "sold" to Jewish theologians at the time, they were fascinated with numbers, and just springing back to life after the cross comes down wouldn't fit too well.

It wasn't so much a "fascination with numbers," as there was a belief that the soul did not leave the body and go to Sheol for up to three days. Basically, they believed that the soul could hover around the body, and possibly reenter it for up to that time. After three days, a person was considered to definitely and truly be dead. Had Christ been resurrected before this time period, many would have believed it to simply be because his soul had not left yet.

And when the Christ walks on earth again how will you recognize Him since no one has ever seen Him. How will you be able to know that the new Christ is the same as the old Christ?

Because he will assist Imam Mahdi and he will be the one who will strike down the Anti-Christ. :)

Because he will assist Imam Mahdi and he will be the one who will strike down the Anti-Christ. :)

All of the expecations of the Return are fullfiled by Baha'u'llah.

I believe that if we look at it as a concept to be "sold" to Jewish theologians at the time, they were fascinated with numbers, and just springing back to life after the cross comes down wouldn't fit too well.

You could also ask why he died at that particular age, or why there were twelve disciples. Or why the number of the beast is 666, the number of a man. Or why the Trinity (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit).

As a programmer, I've always had the idea that the concept of man being created in God's image meant that we sprang from the same abstraction. This was further confirmed for me by reading Maimonides, where he notes that God cannot be anything except the abstraction of all abstractions, and that we are instances of that abstraction. Christians, therefore, have Jesus as an instance of God's abstraction.

It avoids the whole "bearded white guy in the sky" thing for me.

The number three appears arbitrary to outsiders. But it probably has some deep meaning that I'm too unread to know.

The number three has had a significance for all of humanity for thousand of year. Trinities became a big thing when people noticed the sun, the moon and the earth. Let's see a mother, a father, and a child. So we developed this into worship. The first dieties (ack, i can't spell) appeared 23,000 years ago as a male and female who created earth or whatnot. This evolved into other trinities. In the modern Wiccan religion, they have adopted the ideas of old Pagan relgions in which there is the Mother, the Maiden, and the crone...the three life stages. Which, as you can see fits right into The Father, the Son and the holy ghost. Religion is just one big evolution.

Also, to answer the "12 apostles thing", I'm not sure but i guess 12 people makes up a group of follower in the crhistian belief system, and not just for Christ. All of you know how 13 is unlucky? Well, the history is because it takes twelve witches (christian word for satan worshippers, no offense) and the devil to have and unholy meeting which makes thirteen, but it also takes tweleve apostles and Jesus to make a religion which brings eligtenment to the world. Now i want to look through my bible and find more stuff like that. If anybody knows more stuff like this, please post, I'm interested as well!

Here is some information that I found from
http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=apostles_creed.html




8. [CHRIST] "DESCENDED INTO HELL"

But we ought not to omit his descent into hell, a matter of no small moment in bringing about redemption. Now it appears from the ancient writers that this phrase which we read in the Creed was once not so much used in the churches. f431 Nevertheless, in setting forth a summary of doctrine a place must be given to it, as it contains the useful and not-to-be-despised mystery of a most important matter, at least some of the old writers do not leave it out. f432 From this we may conjecture that it was inserted after a time, and did not become customary in the churches at once, but gradually. This much is certain: that it reflected the common belief of all the godly; for there is no one of the fathers who does not mention in his writings Christ’s descent into hell, though their interpretations vary. But it matters little by whom or at what time this clause was inserted. Rather, the noteworthy point about the Creed is this: we have in it a summary of our faith, full and complete in all details; and containing nothing in it except what has been derived from the pure Word of God. If any persons have scruples about admitting this article into the Creed, f433 it will soon be made plain how important it is to the sum of our redemption: if it is left out, much of the benefit of Christ’s death will be lost. On the other hand, there are some who think that nothing new is spoken of in this article, but that it repeats in other words what had previously been said of his burial, the word "hell" often being used in Scripture to denote a grave. f434 I grant that what they put forward concerning the meaning of the word is true: "hell" is frequently to be understood as "grave." But two reasons militate against their opinion, and readily persuade me to disagree with them. How careless it would have been, when something not at all difficult in itself has been stated with clear and easy words, to indicate it again in words that obscure rather than clarify it! Whenever two expressions for the same thing are used in the same context, the latter ought to be an explanation of the former. But what sort of explanation will it be if one says that "Christ was buried" means that "he descended into hell"? Secondly, it is not likely that a useless repetition of this sort could have crept into this summary, which the chief points of our faith are aptly noted in the fewest possible words. I have no doubt that all who have weighed this matter with some care will readily agree with me.

OK, this is an honest to goodness, non-biased theological question I was recently wondering about. Thoughtful answers welcome. Mockery and flaming definitely not.

I was pondering the death of Christ lately (blame reading "Reformation", lot's of theological gubbins in there). Now, it's a given that Christ's crucifixtion resulted in the death of Christ-the-man. My question is: what happened to Christ-as-God in the 3 days that Christ-the-man was dead? This seems to me a pretty fundamental question that depending on how you answer may have serious ramifications for Christian doctrine, yet I haven't come across any discussion of it.

So, what's the take of Christians on here on it? And does anyone know of any good theological discussion of the question?

Cheers.
I don't think you can separate Christ-the-man from Christ-as-God, as the essential thing about Christ is that he's both.
With regards to the three-day thing (and it's really a third-day thing, as He died on Friday afternoon and was up and about on Sunday morning, but that's the way Jews measured time!), I think it's relating back to Jonah being three days in the belly of the sea monster (Jonah 1:17); Jesus Himself is recorded as referring to this in Matthew 12:38-41.

P.S. The twelve apostles are a reference to the twelve tribes of Israel. There are many explanations for 666 (you can find a decoding to get Nero Caesar, or the Pope's title in Latin, or variations on Bill Clinton's name, or many others!), but as 7 is God's number, 6 (which falls short of 7) could represent Satan.

[QUOTE]I don't think you can separate Christ-the-man from Christ-as-God, as the essential thing about Christ is that he's both.

Another way to look the divinity issue of all of the Messengers of God is to think of them as having human shape, but also speaking with the authority of God. This helps me understand why Christ always refered to the Father as being greater than himself, and why He never called Himself God. It was difficult for the people of that time to understand the concept and Christ did not explicitly spell it out. There were other more important ideas that needed to be shared at the time. So the Messengers bring Gods message without God physically coming to earth. We should no more expect God to come to earth than we expect the sun to come to earth. They are both life-givers they must remain distant from those who need them the most. God sends Messengers; the sun sends it rays.

Here is some information that I found from
http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=apostles_creed.html

Very interesting. I can give you the address (physical address that is) of a whole seminary full of theologians that disagree with him if you like. Actually, I disagree with the whole concept of a "literal" hell, at least apart from the Lake of Fire into which death will be cast and all evil permenantly destroyed.

As for where Christ's "Godly half" half went, is in no way clear from a Biblical perspective and I will thereby not speculate as to the specifics and or about how exactly the human/God combination worked in life either for that matter. I consider that to be a mystery we may not ever fully comprehend and certainly not prior to being in heaven.

Hmm. I honestly can't remember.. I'll jot this down, and go do some bible study.. If not I'll ask my Pastor on Sunday.

Good question.

I think might have been Jeremiah, Daniel, or one of those books of the prophets major/minor which talk about the coming of Christ.

We really must remember that the ancient Jews didn't even have a set concept of heaven and hell. A few of the smaller sects had begun to put forth such ideas, especially after the Babylonian exile, when the idea of Satan was first introduced to Jewish theology. However, for the most part, Jews believed that all souls went to Sheol, usually believed to exist in the sky. The most likely idea is that the earliest Christians believed that Christ went into Sheol for 3 days (as this would actually prove his death to the society) and then returned. Once the concept of heaven and hell entered Christian theology, Sheol and Hell became synonomous.

This helps me understand why Christ always refered to the Father as being greater than himself, and why He never called Himself God. It was difficult for the people of that time to understand the concept and Christ did not explicitly spell it out.
He spelled it out explicitly enough for them to have "picked up stones to stone Him (John 8:58-59). The Jews at the time knew exactly what Jesus meant when he said "I am" (which is the name God uses to introduce Himself to Moses at the burning bush), or when He said, "I and the Father are one", which His hearers accurately interpret as a claim to be God (John 19:29-33). John 8:24 ("Unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.") is similar.
I can give you lots of others if you like, but I'm certain that Jesus Himself claimed equality with God the Father.

He spelled it out explicitly enough for them to have "picked up stones to stone Him (John 8:58-59). The Jews at the time knew exactly what Jesus meant when he said "I am" (which is the name God uses to introduce Himself to Moses at the burning bush), or when He said, "I and the Father are one", which His hearers accurately interpret as a claim to be God (John 19:29-33). John 8:24 ("Unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.") is similar.
I can give you lots of others if you like, but I'm certain that Jesus Himself claimed equality with God the Father.

I am only going to use one quote because it so very clearly points out the point that God and Christ are not the same physical person. The Christ was sent by God to give his latest Message to His creation. I could suppy more, but I have to go out and shovel snow. I will be back later if you want to continue the conversation, if it remains civil.

But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

(King James Bible, John)

The number three appears arbitrary to outsiders. But it probably has some deep meaning that I'm too unread to know.

It is the closest whole number to the purest/simplest base math (Base 2.8).

especially after the Babylonian exile, when the idea of Satan was first introduced to Jewish theology.

???? Job chapt 1, Gen. 3, Daniel, Isaiah more chapts. than I care to list, all predate or coinside with the Babylonian exile.

???? Job chapt 1, Gen. 3, Daniel, Isaiah more chapts. than I care to list, all predate or coinside with the Babylonian exile.

Job does not have a specific time frame mentioned and was actually first written down after the exile. Gen 3 does not specifically refer to Satan, people have simply interpreted the serpent to be Satan. Such is never explicitly stated. As for Isaiah, it's been a while since I read it, you will have to be a bit more explicit.

However, any theological scholar who has actually bothered to study history can tell you that there was no concept of an embodiment of evil such as Satan present in Hebrew theology until after the exile.