NationStates Jolt Archive


Rice's outposts of tyranny

Episteme
19-01-2005, 15:34
Iran, Belarus, North Korea, Burma (Myanmar), Zimbabwe and Cuba are all singled out as 'outposts of tyranny' in which the USA must act to help bring freedom by Condoleezza Rice in a speech today.

This is a long, long way from the old strategies of the Cold War. If America does decide to get involved in any of those countries- by whatever means (I assume many of Rice's aides will be pressing for military action, especially in Iran and North Korea)- it will have to be prepared for grave consequences. If America thinks it can justify the deaths of thousands of its own soldiers and many thousands more civilians in a conflict with any of the nations named, if the current administration believes wholehertedly that it can look the mother of every single dead soldier in the eye and tell them their son or daughter's death was justified, then chances are some sort of military 'intervention' will occur within Bush's second term.

But what are these countries really like, and what are the wider implications of interfering in their affairs, however unjust one may believe them to be? I must admit I don't know much specifically about Belarus, though I know its human rights record is awful and it does little to help the many thousands of victims still suffering from the effects of the Chernobyl disaster. Cuba will, many predict, be prepared to change and embrace the rest of the world (though probably on its own terms) soon after Castro dies which can't be far away, and it's fair to say that Cuba is no threat to anyone else and its people should be allowed to change and not forced to. Iran's fundamentalist regime is still very much in charge of its affairs, but just like in a lot of Islamic nations, the "death to America" chants are encouraged by the powers that be only because of an acute awareness that otherwise, the discontents of Iranians would be directed at their own regime. Scratch the surface of Iranian society and you find many people have no hostility to the west and really do want change- of course all that would end if the USAF started bombing them out of their homes. Burma is a bizarre and secret society where slavery is commonplace, the countryside is effectively run by drug warlords and Chinese landowning interests and the government fills its pockets with drug money whilst demanding the west give it funds to tackle trafficking. Unfortunately all too many of our western corporations are willing to invest in Burma and give its government more money with which a few corrupt officials build opulent palace-style homes whilst the rest suffer- but as the case of Au Sang Suu Kyi and others shows, popular discontent is very strong in Burma and has the potential to overthrow the regime if only the government there weren't able to line its pockets with money from the west. Zimbabwe is a strange case, and Mugabe can't have long left- I think he's about 85 though he treats himself to a luxurious lifestyle- thus after he goes, or even before if Tsvangirai and his supporters aren't terrorised by Mugabe's goons, the people of Zimbabwe will surely realise that overrunning white-owned farms, even if many of Zimbabwe's white farmers were virulently racist and hostile to the black population (funnily enough many of those have fled to Britain or Australia whilst more tolerant whites have remained), benefits nobody- the farms were organized and efficient and produced profits, even if those profits were not always distributed fairly. The farms now, in most cases, make no profits, some have been reduced to wasteland and the people who live on the land have to rely on outside aid. Tsvangirai or another leader with some common sense could easily take Zimbabwe back to its former GDP levels peacefully, and only South Africa's acquiescence in the whole affair prevents this possibility. North Korea, however, is a case apart, and whilst I think all the above cases could be effectively solved with good diplomacy (which is what Rice is employed to do), it's hard to see how any short-term diplomatic strategy can solve the North Korean problem, which has much more potential to drag in other countries than any of the others. An Iraq-style invasion could potentially cost millions of lives given that North Korea has both nuclear capacity and willingness to use it, but as time goes on, the nutcase in charge will probably get more nukes, as well as some more John Travolta DVDs.

I'd advise Condi- even though she is much more learned in this profession than I- to use 'kid gloves' in dealing with all the countries named, and one thing's for sure- unilateralism is not an option. To just invade any of those countries could create a war worse than anything ever seen, one which no cause, not even the virtues of liberal democracy (sorry Mr Fukuyama) could ever hope to justify. Maybe the most 'diplomatic' thing to do, especially with Belarus, Burma, Cuba and Zimbabwe, would be to just wait and see, even if it would mean Condi and George would never be cast in stone as 'liberators' outside the new, democratic government offices of Minsk, Rangoon, Havana and Harare in the future the neo-cons seem to want to pull us all toward. But it's not my job to decide, it's Condi's. Good luck in the new job Ms Rice, we're all counting on you not to get us all blown up!!!
Eutrusca
19-01-2005, 15:36
Iran, Belarus, North Korea, Burma (Myanmar), Zimbabwe and Cuba are all singled out as 'outposts of tyranny' in which the USA must act to help bring freedom by Condoleezza Rice in a speech today.

Go, Condi, go! Yayyyy! :D
Sanctaphrax
19-01-2005, 15:36
Belarus? What the hell have Belarus ever done to anyone?
Nsendalen
19-01-2005, 15:38
*sigh*

Someone go give that woman a slap.
Zeppistan
19-01-2005, 15:43
Actually, my favourite moment from her confirmation hearing was when she tried to look all shocked and innocent saying how she was so against torture and all that, and then got nailed with the fact that she had personally intervened to have an anit-torture clause stripped from a recent intelligence bill.


Busted!
Episteme
19-01-2005, 15:44
Belarus, not Syria or Turkmenistan or any other country that treats its own people like slaves. One might suggest the reason why she mentions Belarus specifically is because it is one of many states lying between Russia and Western Europe and she doesn't want to risk a 'Balkanisation' of that region.

However she did say the US was looking to further ties with China which hopefully bodes well regarding the Burmese and North Korean issues- those countries might listen to Beijing but would never contemplate taking advice from the USA.
Kissmybutte
19-01-2005, 16:04
The U.S. has consistently opposed democracy and self-determination throughout most of the world in the last century. South and central american countries have in their histories many examples of this. For any american administration to suggest that their primary objective is to support democracy and self determination around the world is to continue the
American tradition of grotesque hypocrisy.

The ambition of this administration, and the cabal for which they front, is to ensure "full spectrum dominance", and specifically, free reign for the corporate interests that sponsor them.

1984 here we are. For virtually any campaign or objective listed by this administration, if you invert or reverse the stated aims, you have a pretty clear idea of what the real objectives are.

Funny how the more the Bushies preach freedom, democracy, rights etc the more they attack these in their own country. Realistically speaking, what do you expect from people with the morals of sewer rats and the behavior patterns of rabid weasels?

As an aside, do we hear the americans complaining of all the anti-democratic behaviours of the hideous authoritarian regimes that are their allies?
Chess Squares
19-01-2005, 16:20
Condoleeza Rice is nuttier than Bush is, and sadly she is one of the dipshits bush is getting advice from to lead the country to its doom
Fass
19-01-2005, 16:22
Iran, Belarus, North Korea, Burma (Myanmar), Zimbabwe and Cuba are all singled out as 'outposts of tyranny' in which the USA must act to help bring freedom by Condoleezza Rice in a speech today.

It's hard to miss the omission of the "outposts of tyranny" that just happen to be allies of the US.
Eutrusca
19-01-2005, 16:26
Condoleeza Rice is nuttier than Bush is, and sadly she is one of the dipshits bush is getting advice from to lead the country to its doom

You know something? I have come to the conclusion that you are desperately in need of the services of a competent mental health professional! On a scale of intellect where Ms. Rice is a 10, you would be ranked somewhere around minus twenty. Jeeze! Please consider taking up dominoes, or develop a serious Leggo hobby, or collect pretty rocks, willya. Logic and reason just aren't your strong suit.
Chess Squares
19-01-2005, 16:28
You know something? I have come to the conclusion that you are desperately in need of the services of a competent mental health professional! On a scale of intellect where Ms. Rice is a 10, you would be ranked somewhere around minus twenty. Jeeze! Please consider taking up dominoes, or develop a serious Leggo hobby, or collect pretty rocks, willya. Logic and reason just aren't your strong suit.
yes because invading a dozen countries simultaneously and or threatening them is brilliant and logical and disregarding things like "bin laden determined to attack inside america" is an 11 in intelligence on the 1-10 scale. maybe you should write bush and ask to be put in his cabient since you are so smart. dont forget to include you support everything he has ever done and that you are another "yes" man for him
Greenmanbry
19-01-2005, 16:30
It's hard to miss the omission of the "outposts of tyranny" that just happen to be allies of the US.

Yaaar.. where the bloody fuck is Saudi Arabia, or Egypt, or Libya, or Oman, or the UAE, or the gulf island-garrisons??????.....

Condi is a stupid dipshit. Unfortunately, she's the man in the White House. Whatever that neo-con piece of turd says goes.. and that's what's scary. Cheney, Rummy, and Condi... the three stooges.
Whittier-
19-01-2005, 16:32
Zimbabwe is worse than just an outpost of tyranny. It is the Nazi regime of africa. And the sooner we eliminate that regime, the better off the world will be.
Willamena
19-01-2005, 16:40
'Outposts of Tyranny'? Isn't that just another way of saying 'Axis of Evil'?
Big Ten Country
19-01-2005, 16:56
yes because invading a dozen countries simultaneously and or threatening them is brilliant and logical and disregarding things like "bin laden determined to attack inside america" is an 11 in intelligence on the 1-10 scale. maybe you should write bush and ask to be put in his cabient since you are so smart. dont forget to include you support everything he has ever done and that you are another "yes" man for him

1) I may have missed it when I read the transcripts, but when exactly did Condaleeza Rice actually say we should be invading these countries.

2) Given that she's being appointed to the position of Secretary of State (i.e. our nation's chief diplomat), her job is to be concerned about things outside our borders. If she was to be appointed the head of the department of homeland security and was still focussed on Cuba and Belarus, then you'd have a point. But as it stands, you're just going off half-cocked there.
Sinuhue
19-01-2005, 17:50
1) I may have missed it when I read the transcripts, but when exactly did Condaleeza Rice actually say we should be invading these countries.

2) Given that she's being appointed to the position of Secretary of State (i.e. our nation's chief diplomat), her job is to be concerned about things outside our borders. If she was to be appointed the head of the department of homeland security and was still focussed on Cuba and Belarus, then you'd have a point. But as it stands, you're just going off half-cocked there.
Nowhere does the original poster say that the U.S has stated they will invade these countries. Instead, the poster analyses the nations named, in an attempt to understand why they were targeted (while others were left out) and to extrapolate from recent unilateral actions taken by the U.S the POSSIBLE course of action the Bush administration may take.

The question remains...can democracy be "brought" to a nation, or does it have to develop on its own? That doesn't mean complete non-intervention, but then again, non-intervention is not a superpower strong point. Not supporting dictatorships or regimes that violate human rights would be a nice start, as long as for once it was done across the board, instead of applying only to nations that aren't on your good side.

This whole war on terror has been a cause joyfully taken up by many nations as an excuse to crack down on dissension in a manner that was not politically expedient before 911. The increase in militarization does not make me feel safer. In fact, I feel that this decade is the most charged and tense decade I've yet seen...though being 27, I haven't see too many:) Nonetheless, protests that were common and permitted (though heavily policed) in the 90s would simply not be possible now, and I blame that increase in paranoia on the post 911 actions of the Bush administration. An increase in military interventions (which is only suggested by the original poster as a possibility) would mean an increase in retaliation and terror against the U.S and it's allies...a prospect that chills me.
Klonmel
19-01-2005, 18:01
Belarus? What the hell have Belarus ever done to anyone?

The Belarusian President Lukashenko is often branded "Europe's last dictator". And if you google his name, you can find various references to all sorts of human rights abuses.
The only specific thing I know is that he is apparently going to shut down the Chernobyl Children's project, which is an Irish charity that takes in children from Chernobyl for a few months (which literally adds years to their lives). Apparently Lukashenko thinks these children are being affected too much by "Western Consumerism", and wants money to go directly to the state instead.