NationStates Jolt Archive

I don't know whether this thread already exists here, but oh well.

I believe all abortion is murder. Forget rape or incest. It's still murder.

EDIT: This is a MORAL question, not legal. Sorry for forgetting that.

I don't know whether this thread already exists here, but oh well.

I believe all abortion is murder. Forget rape or incest. It's still murder.
Prove your point...

Prove your point...
Yeah this should be funny.
*leaps into foxhole*

By definition, no.

I still think it's horrendous, but it's not murder, at least not legally.

i think abortion is more along the lines of putting your cat or dog down so they won't have to suffer. how moral is it really to force people to have children they don't want and can't afford? maybe it's better to have never been born.

Abortion isn't murder.

mur·der Audio pronunciation of "murder" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mûrdr)
n.

1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

a·bor·tion Audio pronunciation of "abortion" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-bôrshn)
n.

1.
1. Termination of pregnancy and expulsion of an embryo or of a fetus that is incapable of survival.
2. Any of various procedures that result in such termination and expulsion. Also called induced abortion.


For that matter, property isn't theft.

I wish people would stick to definitions sometimes.

Yeah this should be funny.
*leaps into foxhole*
*joins BlatantSillyness in the foxhole*

It's not murder before a proper brain develops. After that, yes it is.

Oops. I forgot to say that this was a MORAL question. I've edited that into the first post.

I belive that abortion should only be used in rape or in mothers life. Other wise ban it.

*joins BlatantSillyness in the foxhole*
*dives in too*

Hmm, it's getting rather full...
Next one in, we shoot and throw back out!
:D

Killing anything living is murder.

(in my view) so I am murdering my brain cells right now.

But both abortion and euthanasia are considered mercy killings and are generally done for the best of intentions.

*dives in too*

Hmm, it's getting rather full...
Next one in, we shoot and throw back out!
:D


*digs an extension to the foxhole and jumps in*

*digs an extension to the foxhole and jumps in*

*Fills the foxhole with Jello-O and runs with glee into the woods*

I don't know whether this thread already exists here, but oh well.

I believe all abortion is murder. Forget rape or incest. It's still murder.

EDIT: This is a MORAL question, not legal. Sorry for forgetting that.
purely on morals it is murder. but then there is always more to an issue than ethics. in this case i would argue that the morals are bendable.
that 13 year old girl from the other thread will have very few resources to bring her child up (if she hadn't thown it out of the window :rolleyes: ). That is, at least, bring the child up well. also the mother may not (perhaps clearly not) have the mentallity or skills - even love (she did throw the baby out the fuckin window if the story is true) - to care and raise the child properly. ultimatley, abortion boils down to the child's prospects: it would be unfair (to both child and family) to force a mother to have a child she has no hope of - or wish to - raise in a proper manner.

where is the line - the foetus is still alive after all? is it concious? dont know for sure. a foetus differs from a baby in that it has not yet been born. it is thus possible to terminate its life humanely, while killing a living, breathing baby is murder. yes, the unborn foetus has the potential to become a baby, but it is the fact that it can be terminated humanely is justified by the reason above. in short, you can't murder a baby, but abortion is a humane murder by any other name and must be allowed because of this difference. very grey area.
but where does it end? surely all anti-abortion nuts should be vegans, or at least vegitarian, too?

and spare me all that religious "soul" nonsense.

*Fills the foxhole with Jello-O and runs with glee into the woods*
You better be hunting for icecream dude- the abortion thread foxhole posse can be mean hombres

You better be hunting for icecream dude- the abortion thread foxhole posse can be mean hombres

Icecream and Jello-O? Well... hmm... I guess if that's what it takes, I'm not going to be one to mince appetites! Cream de la Ice for all!

I notice how the thread starter ran away...

Nope. I'm still here ;)

Nope. I'm still here ;)
Here have some ice cream and jell-0

Eh? What's with the ice cream and jell-o?

Nope. I'm still here ;)
Mind explaining and supporting your responce?

:headbang: IDOIT, dig up that other abortion thread, or the other 50...

Eh? What's with the ice cream and jello?
We're gathering food stuffs for when the abortion bombshell hits - we'll be watching safely from our foxhole

:headbang: IDOIT, dig up that other abortion thread, or the other 50...
OOH!
Can I come see the idoit?
:D

:headbang: IDOIT, dig up that other abortion thread, or the other 50...
None of those threads have foxholes, jell-o or ice cream.

None of those threads have foxholes, jell-o or ice cream.

Wow! I added one-third of the originality to this thread!

Well, my work here is done... time to retire to the foxhole and work on getting scurvy with our wonderful rations.

Wow! I added one-third of the originality to this thread!

Well, my work here is done... time to retire to the foxhole and work on getting scurvy with our wonderful rations.
I've got the fruits! ^^

This is copied from Holy Paradise's forum on the same topic, a forum you've ben active on. I want to hear what you have to say, and I hope it is a better reply than Holy Paradise's.

Ok, reality check time Mr Holy Paradise.

If you would have just brought up this point that you don't agree with this, told us about it, your take, and left it all well and fine, that would be ok. I don't personally agree, but I would except your opinion, and probably nod my head thoughtfully a few times. But when you go off and systematically insult and drag through the mud, everything that most of the people responding to your forum believe in. When you go off like a raving lunatic over the rest of the world that isn't like your little Happy Magic Kodak Moment Jesus-Loving God Fearing Uber-Christian world, I feel the need to step in.

Your forum post here is called "News That Might Sicken You". A very accurate title. I came here, thinking I'm probably going to hear about Guantanamo Bay or the Marine who shot the guy in the mosque (Yes, I said Mosque, a satanic word to you I bet). But no. It was still news to me, and very sickening.

I learned that there are elitist, cruel, ignorant, ethnocentic whackjobs out in the world that still feel the need to point out the slightest imperfection in society. People who are worried that anything that might not fit into "their way" might somehow indirectly affect them, or disturb their aura of peace. Hypocrites.

Some of these people will look at the camera and say "Jesus loves everyone" and then turn away and say "Except for you, you, you, you, and you". People who go on about how we need more love in the world, then turn to a homosexual couple and tell them that their love is bad and not exceptable, and try to keep them from expressing it. People who beg for school prayer, and then take a leak on evolution. People who say "We should help everyone in our community and extend open hands.", then make someone who made one little mistake, like having sex when she maybe shouldn't have, and degrade them, and make examples of them, and twist them, and use their stories to push their agendas and beliefs on to others, and make them feel so awful about themselves, that they would do whatever it took to hide that one mistake.

If you ever meet this poor girl, this girl who's story you abuse just to try to make a point, apologize. You apologize to her, for not only using her story, but for being part of the collective shout that made her decide to try to get rid of her baby.

dude, no.
It's not murder. It's like euthanasia but better.
Abortion is good. It's the solution for unwanted children, overpopulation, unemployment of abortion specialists and lack of food for street dogs.
Abortion should be nothing but illegal. It could even be compulsory every two years or something.
You weren't aborted, so remember: abortion is your friend.
thanks.

I've got the fruits! ^^

You heathen! That fruit better be filled with sugar!

You heathen! That fruit better be filled with sugar!
Don't worry; it's those jelly-fruits! They'll make you scurvy-ish in no time! :D

*hides some fruit for himself*

Don't worry; it's those jelly-fruits! They'll make you scurvy-ish in no time! :D

*hides some fruit for himself*

Hmm... well, I like the cut of your jib, so I'll take your word for it. :p

Is abortion murder?

yes. yes it is.

So where's the bombshell we've been waiting for?
*pokes head out of hole to see a bombshell heading our way*
Yikes! :eek:
*quickly scurries back into foxhole*

Mind explaining and supporting your responce?
That post was in response to the one above it, assuming I understood his comment correctly.
:headbang: IDOIT, dig up that other abortion thread, or the other 50...
Why?
We're gathering food stuffs for when the abortion bombshell hits - we'll be watching safely from our foxhole
How is abortion a bombshell? (Jayestan was right, I am an "idoit" ;) )

How is abortion a bombshell? (Jayestan was right, I am an "idoit" ;) )
Its controversy promotes trolling & flaming

Wow, I thought the owner of this forum would respnd to my comment, maybe my bombshell was a dud.

Its controversy promotes trolling & flaming
and its "been done to death a billion times" promotes foxholes and gelatinous snack treats

murder
To kill (another human) unlawfully.
To kill brutally or inhumanly.

abortion
Termination of pregnancy and expulsion of an embryo or of a fetus that is incapable of survival.

abortion=murder

embryo or fetus of a human is murder
premiditated+murder=murder of first degree

Besides why don't you send the child to an adoption agency. If abortion <> murder then shooting a person(human) in the heart is not murder and annihilation is not murder so genocide is not murder so no one died in ww2 hmmmm simple logic solves simple answers.

murder
To kill (another human) unlawfully.
To kill brutally or inhumanly.

abortion
Termination of pregnancy and expulsion of an embryo or of a fetus that is incapable of survival.

abortion=murder

embryo or fetus of a human is murder
premiditated+murder=murder of first degree

Besides why don't you send the child to an adoption agency. If abortion <> murder then shooting a person(human) in the heart is not murder and annihilation is not murder so genocide is not murder so no one died in ww2 hmmmm simple logic solves simple answers.


But what if the abortion is done with Jello-O and ice cream? Suuuurely that is not murder... possibly fetus neglect, since its not a balanced meal. I chalk it up to just not knowing... and that, my friends, is half the battle.

murder
To kill (another human) unlawfully.
To kill brutally or inhumanly.

abortion
Termination of pregnancy and expulsion of an embryo or of a fetus that is incapable of survival.

abortion=murder

embryo or fetus of a human is murder
premiditated+murder=murder of first degree

Besides why don't you send the child to an adoption agency. If abortion <> murder then shooting a person(human) in the heart is not murder and annihilation is not murder so genocide is not murder so no one died in ww2 hmmmm simple logic solves simple answers.

1. You're overlooking the word "unlawfully." Last I checked, abortion was legal.

2. If you take the second definition, it can apply to things other than humans. Do you eat meat?

3. Abortion stops an unwanted pregnancy. Adoption stops unwanted parenthood. A person having an abortion does not want to be pregnant or give birth to whatever she is carrying. A person who gives up a child for adoption does not want to take care of that child or be responsible for it.

If you would have just brought up this point that you don't agree with this, told us about it, your take, and left it all well and fine, that would be ok. I don't personally agree, but I would except your opinion, and probably nod my head thoughtfully a few times. But when you go off and systematically insult and drag through the mud, everything that most of the people responding to your forum believe in. When you go off like a raving lunatic over the rest of the world that isn't like your little Happy Magic Kodak Moment Jesus-Loving God Fearing Uber-Christian world, I feel the need to step in.

Your forum post here is called "News That Might Sicken You". A very accurate title. I came here, thinking I'm probably going to hear about Guantanamo Bay or the Marine who shot the guy in the mosque (Yes, I said Mosque, a satanic word to you I bet). But no. It was still news to me, and very sickening.

I learned that there are elitist, cruel, ignorant, ethnocentic whackjobs out in the world that still feel the need to point out the slightest imperfection in society. People who are worried that anything that might not fit into "their way" might somehow indirectly affect them, or disturb their aura of peace. Hypocrites.

Some of these people will look at the camera and say "Jesus loves everyone" and then turn away and say "Except for you, you, you, you, and you". People who go on about how we need more love in the world, then turn to a homosexual couple and tell them that their love is bad and not exceptable, and try to keep them from expressing it. People who beg for school prayer, and then take a leak on evolution. People who say "We should help everyone in our community and extend open hands.", then make someone who made one little mistake, like having sex when she maybe shouldn't have, and degrade them, and make examples of them, and twist them, and use their stories to push their agendas and beliefs on to others, and make them feel so awful about themselves, that they would do whatever it took to hide that one mistake.

If you ever meet this poor girl, this girl who's story you abuse just to try to make a point, apologize. You apologize to her, for not only using her story, but for being part of the collective shout that made her decide to try to get rid of her baby.
Hmm. This is a tough one. Can you simplify what you're trying to say? Thanks in advance. :)
Its controversy promotes trolling & flaming
I see. Thanks for explaining that.
Wow, I thought the owner of this forum would respnd to my comment, maybe my bombshell was a dud.
Dude, read my sig. It states that it takes a bit for me to respond. And I'll try to refrain from trolling/flaming. ;)

I GOT IT !!!
we can think of it as eviction.
the fetus... or mutant... yes, I shall call it mutant... or even better: flesh eating mutant parasite... ehem... the flesh eating mutant parasite is an unwanted guest... so if you were the mother (you'd be scared... remember you have a flesh eating mutant parasite in your guts) you'd say something like this: "leave my happy house, you flesh eating mutant parasite!!! I have no room for you.... you are alive only because you steal my vital fluids and other crap".
And therefore you would get an eviction notice and kick the hell out of the flesh eating mutant parasite. It wouldn't be able to survive in the outer world, but hey! shit happens!!! once the flesh eating mutant parasite is out of your happy house it is no longer your problem, so if it dies you won't have to attend the funeral.

murder
To kill (another human) unlawfully.
To kill brutally or inhumanly.

abortion
Termination of pregnancy and expulsion of an embryo or of a fetus that is incapable of survival.

abortion=murder

embryo or fetus of a human is murder
premiditated+murder=murder of first degree

Besides why don't you send the child to an adoption agency. If abortion <> murder then shooting a person(human) in the heart is not murder and annihilation is not murder so genocide is not murder so no one died in ww2 hmmmm simple logic solves simple answers.


You have no idea how stupid, offense, and blatently idiotic what you just said was. First, you twist a couple definitions, then a few equations that is pretty much repeating the same thing. Then you bring up the point of adoption agencies, that are well overcrowded and looked over in favor of foreign adoption agencies, how in the world did where you adopt become a fashion statement. Most adoption agencies are poorly funded and the kids often get stuck with unfit parents. Next, you go on a tangent of really bad comparisons, ending with the taste-de-resistance, "no one died in ww2". First off, people die withouth being murder, you were saying how abortion isn't murder, than you go into death in general. Second, that is one of the worst comments I've heard. You should retract that or something, because you just pretty much disregarded the loss of 57 million lives just to prove a point that was weak to begin with.

Ok I think that last response will prolly get some pro-lifers mad...*ducks back in foxhole*

Ok I think that last response will prolly get some pro-lifers mad...*ducks back in foxhole*

*Drops ice cream cone and dives into foxhole*

Just when you think its safe...

I hate babies. Any opportunity to kill them is fine by me... ;)
My preferred method is the coathanger approach.

*Drops ice cream cone and dives into foxhole*

Just when you think its safe...
*hands AGH an ice cream from the foxhole freezer*

I hate babies. Any opportunity to kill them is fine by me... ;)
My preferred method is the coathanger approach.
Babies can be tricky little buggers tho- 9 times out of ten you end up getting the coat hanger grabbed off you by the fetus ; then it stabs you in the hand with it.

Thinking of Abortion of an anwser to over population... a bad idea IMO... but then agian i live in Flordia. :confused:
Also Foetus=not a word
Fetus=word!
spellcheck.net is your friend!
*Jumps into foxhole and looks for blue jello

By definition, no.

I still think it's horrendous, but it's not murder, at least not legally.
This is the opinion i take.

*dives in too*

Hmm, it's getting rather full...
Next one in, we shoot and throw back out!
:D
Im coming in... and ive lost my pants.

I love moralityfests. Anyways, on to the issue.

While abortion may seem like a harmless proscess, ridding the world of another person that's contributing to the overpopulation of the planet, its much, much more complex than that.

While some may not see abortion as murder, there is no way to deny that the fetus is being killed. Killing is not always wrong. Killing can be justified in some situations, such as a few I'll name here in a sec...

It is ok to kill a person, or any creature for that matter if it brings harm to another creature out of sheer hate, malice, or jealousy. (keep in mind there are probably several other conditions, but I'm tired and too lazy to think of more)

It is ok to kill a person during a time of war. In order to win, you have to kill. There is no way to win a physical war withoutmilitary struggles. Diplomacy alone will not suffice, unless you are extremely weak and plan to give in anyways.

It is ok to kill a creature (definately not humans) if you intend to eat it. There is no reason to end an animal's life unless you plan to consume it, thus justifying hunting. Animals should not be shot for sport alone, becaus that is pointless killing.

What has a fetus done wrong? It hasn't killed anyone. It won't be killed in a war. It definately won't be eaten as food.

There is no good reason to kill a fetus. Some argue that it's the woman's choice because it's her body. The fetus that she is choosing to abort is not her body. It is a new body, which will eventually be an independent being.

The main reason women go to have an abortion is out of expediency. She has done something stupid (for lack of a better word). If a woman doesn't want a child, she should take birth control, or her partner should wear a condom. If a woman is not married, she should not have sex. If she does choose to do so, she should do it with the understanding that she could get pregnant and if she does, she is responsible for her offspring. There are no excuses for unwanted pregnancy.

God creates everyone for a reason. Everyone deserves a chance at life.

I agree with the law on this one.

If the fetus is in the first two trimesters of conception, it is an extension of the mother's body and not an independent entity. Thus removing it is for all intents and purposes an amputation operation on the mother. If she wants it removed, that is her decision. It is legal and to me it makes sense.

When the fetus is in the last trimester of conception however, it is capable of survival on its own. The mother cannot legally kill it without such an act constituting murder. It is no longer an extension of her body. It is a living entity with its own fully independent bodily functions, and as such it would be wrong to end its life.

The only exception to this is Partial Birth Abortion, which becomes a possibility when the mother would die giving birth. A decision must be made to save either the life of the mother or the life of her unborn child (tough decision).


So that's where I stand. The line must be drawn somewhere between the rights of a women over her own body and the rights of an independent, sentient baby whose care is the responsibility of the mother. We can dispute where the line should be drawn, but to most people it's a no-brainer that a line should exist somewhere.


...Unless of course you want to try making a case for the extension of American civil liberties to a single-celled egg...

Im coming in... and ive lost my pants.
Ooh!
Are you hot?
:D

Babies can be tricky little buggers tho- 9 times out of ten you end up getting the coat hanger grabbed off you by the fetus ; then it stabs you in the hand with it.
That's why I like the "Gigantic Surgical Laser" method. It might be a bit damaging to the mother, but it's so much more fun!

If you want a laser, go ask Shaed, she's got a gigantic surgical laser kicking around somewhere...

*hands AGH an ice cream from the foxhole freezer*

Wait, we have freezers too! This is the greatest... foxhole... ever!

Oh no! Horrible thought... the French thought they a pretty good foxhole with all the amenities too, called the Maginot Line... hmm... as long as no German radicals show up, we should be safe... *looks around nervously*

Im coming in... and ive lost my pants.

Okay, we need some sorta slogan... no shirt, no pants, no foxhole? :D

In my last post, I mentioned women doing something stupid. This includes stuff like:

Drunkenness: If you go get liquored up and then knocked up, you're pregnant because you made the choice to transform yourself temporarily into a blithering retard with little sense of reason.

Whore-ness: If you're gonna sleep around, you're gonna get pregnant sooner or later. You'll probably get AIDS too. Women who sleep around should be the ones who most understand that sex leads to pregnancy. While that may seem like a somewhat stupid statement, some people seem very ignorant and don't quite understand that.

For all you pro-choicers out there: its the woman's choice to get drunk or sleep around. If she does that, then she chose to get pregnant.

Really, no pregnancies are unwanted. Women obviously ask for it when they're in bed begging for more.

Rape / Incest: Not really stupid, not under the woman's control. I'm not gonna touch that with a 10-foot pole.

Shall we do this in three-part harmony?
[edit] there is no way to deny that the fetus is being killed. Killing is not always wrong. One cannot kill that which is not living.

The main reason women go to have an abortion is out of expediency. She has done something stupid (for lack of a better word). Tell that to the rape and incest victims. Tell that to the woman who reluctantly decides that she can't bring to term the massively deformed fetus.

If a woman doesn't want a child, she should take birth control, or her partner should wear a condom.In an ideal world, sure. But welcome to reality. For many women, especially the youngest, birth control just isn't available. For others, it isn't effective (for a variety of reasons).
If a woman is not married, she should not have sex. Blah, blah, blah. Flount your (presumably Christian) morality somewhere else.

There are no excuses for unwanted pregnancy. No excuses, just rational explanation. Unwanted pregnancy is a reality. Your take on it is just another "punish the immoral woman" rant.

God creates everyone for a reason. Aha! Here it is, the appeal to religion. You fail.

I love moralityfests. Anyways, on to the issue.

While abortion may seem like a harmless proscess, ridding the world of another person that's contributing to the overpopulation of the planet, its much, much more complex than that.

While some may not see abortion as murder, there is no way to deny that the fetus is being killed. Killing is not always wrong. Killing can be justified in some situations, such as a few I'll name here in a sec...

It is ok to kill a person, or any creature for that matter if it brings harm to another creature out of sheer hate, malice, or jealousy. (keep in mind there are probably several other conditions, but I'm tired and too lazy to think of more)

It is ok to kill a person during a time of war. In order to win, you have to kill. There is no way to win a physical war withoutmilitary struggles. Diplomacy alone will not suffice, unless you are extremely weak and plan to give in anyways.

It is ok to kill a creature (definately not humans) if you intend to eat it. There is no reason to end an animal's life unless you plan to consume it, thus justifying hunting. Animals should not be shot for sport alone, becaus that is pointless killing.

What has a fetus done wrong? It hasn't killed anyone. It won't be killed in a war. It definately won't be eaten as food.

There is no good reason to kill a fetus. Some argue that it's the woman's choice because it's her body. The fetus that she is choosing to abort is not her body. It is a new body, which will eventually be an independent being.

The main reason women go to have an abortion is out of expediency. She has done something stupid (for lack of a better word). If a woman doesn't want a child, she should take birth control, or her partner should wear a condom. If a woman is not married, she should not have sex. If she does choose to do so, she should do it with the understanding that she could get pregnant and if she does, she is responsible for her offspring. There are no excuses for unwanted pregnancy.

God creates everyone for a reason. Everyone deserves a chance at life.

I would argue that it is more prudent for us to first concentrate on ensuring that all living, breathing humans on this earth have civil liberties and human rights before we discuss extending those rights to unborn humans.

If you are conscripted into a war against your will and killed, your right to life has been trounced upon, and I think that should demand much more pressing public concern than the termination of a female human's bodily extension that has yet to develope into independent life.

Similarly, it is strange to me that pro-life advocates would spend more time discussing the rights of an unborn child than they do actually ensuring the rights of the millions of already-born children in this world (particularly in the third world). That suggests to me that alterior motives are involved in this debate.

That's why I like the "Gigantic Surgical Laser" method. It might be a bit damaging to the mother, but it's so much more fun!

If you want a laser, go ask Shaed, she's got a gigantic surgical laser kicking around somewhere...

*evil maniacal laughter floats into the thread from someplace unknown*

Mwahahahahaha

Awww, I heart my surgical laser. It's my best friend in the whoooooole world.

^.^

*evil maniacal laughter floats into the thread from someplace unknown*

Mwahahahahaha

Awww, I heart my surgical laser. It's my best friend in the whoooooole world.

^.^

Hey you.

One cannot kill what is not living, eh? Is the baby made of cells? is it growing? does it have a brain? (it develops one within the first trimester) Just because a cell is microscopic doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

Rape and incest are not stupid. They are uncontrollable. I wont touch that for now.

Although BCP's may not be available to all ages, condoms are.

Is there anything wrong with religious morals? Did it ever hurt someone not to steal, not to lie, not to covet, not to murder?

I am a christian and proud of it. i dont see why all you people who are anti-christian and think all christian morals are founded on nothing can't understand there is nothing wrong with a good set of morals.

I propose that everyone who thinks abortion is so great should be subject to retroactive abortion. If it's ok to abort, we should just go ahead and kill you since your parents didn't.


Disclaimer:
- this is humorous. it is not a part of my arguement. if you take this out of context, you are an idiot.-

Yes, abortion is murder. I am disgusted with the results of this poll. People, open your eyes! These are babies being routinly butchered simply because their immoral parents couldn't control themselves 99% of the time. I think an abortion is acceptable only if the mother will die. Other than that it should be illegal. I hope Roe vs. Wade is overturned. It was one of the worst supreme court decisions ever. Our own supreme court went against the constitution, common sense, and good morals and allowed immoral people to not accept responsibility for their immoral actions. Over 30 million babies have been killed in this genocide. Thats about the holocaust times 5! These abortion clinics are nothing but concentration camps.

Is there anything wrong with religious morals? Did it ever hurt someone not to steal, not to lie, not to covet, not to murder?
It doesn't matter if it hasn't hurt anybody. The Bible forbids some things that people want to do.
I am a christian and proud of it. i dont see why all you people who are anti-christian and think all christian morals are founded on nothing can't understand there is nothing wrong with a good set of morals.
We aren't anti-Christian. We don't go around flaming Christians. At least, I haven't seen anybody. Report them if they do. And we can understand that nothing is wrong with a good set of morals, we just have different morals than you do.

And I don't think that Christian morals are founded on nothing, they're just founded on a book that some people don't believe.

Similarly, it is strange to me that pro-life advocates would spend more time discussing the rights of an unborn child than they do actually ensuring the rights of the millions of already-born children in this world (particularly in the third world). That suggests to me that alterior motives are involved in this debate.

We're debating about abortion here, not third world children

Yes, abortion is murder. I am disgusted with the results of this poll. People, open your eyes! These are babies being routinly butchered simply because their immoral parents couldn't control themselves 99% of the time. I think an abortion is acceptable only if the mother will die. Other than that it should be illegal. I hope Roe vs. Wade is overturned. It was one of the worst supreme court decisions ever. Our own supreme court went against the constitution, common sense, and good morals and allowed immoral people to not accept responsibility for their immoral actions. Over 30 million babies have been killed in this genocide. Thats about the holocaust times 5! These abortion clinics are nothing but concentration camps.
I believe you mean "foetii".

Also, it isn't a genocide:
Main Entry: geno·cide
Pronunciation: 'je-n&-"sId
Function: noun
: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group

Not a racial group, not a political group, not a cultural group.

Two strikes.

One cannot kill what is not living, eh? Is the baby made of cells? is it growing? does it have a brain? (it develops one within the first trimester) Just because a cell is microscopic doesnt mean it doesnt exist.The fetus doesn't have a completed, active nervous system until sometime late in the second trimester/early in the third. The "brain" you reference is a bundle of neo-differentiated nerve cells.

Existing does not equal alive.

Rape and incest are not stupid. They are uncontrollable. I wont touch that for now.Go ahead. Tell us if you think those women deserve the option of abortion.

Although BCP's may not be available to all ages, condoms are.And condoms are a 100% effective? Not.

Is there anything wrong with religious morals? Did it ever hurt someone not to steal, not to lie, not to covet, not to murder? Imposition of one's religious morals onto another is reprehensible. And while we're at it, moral codes are not necessarily religious.

I am a christian and proud of it. i dont see why all you people who are anti-christian and think all christian morals are founded on nothing can't understand there is nothing wrong with a good set of morals.As above, there's not a thing wrong with a good set of morals. Your definition of "good" will necessarily vary from my definition of good. You live by your moral code and let me live by mine.

I believe you mean "foetii".
What's with this "foetii" thing, anyway? It just looks like "fetus" with an "o" between "e" and "f".

What's with this "foetii" thing, anyway? It just looks like "fetus" with an "o" between "e" and "f".
Whatever. Say fetuses, say foetuses, say fetii, say foetii.
Just don't say babies like Commando2 did, because they aren't.

EDIT:
Sorry, for some odd reason, the tone of this post sounds oddly malicious as I reread it. Err, it's not supposed to be.

It doesn't matter if it hasn't hurt anybody. The Bible forbids some things that people want to do.

We aren't anti-Christian. We don't go around flaming Christians. At least, I haven't seen anybody. Report them if they do. And we can understand that nothing is wrong with a good set of morals, we just have different morals than you do.

And I don't think that Christian morals are founded on nothing, they're just founded on a book that some people don't believe.

Sorry if i came across calling names. I was being hasty and I'm sorry. I know some people at school who make me madder beyond belief cuz theyre extremely anti-christian and I want to punch them in the face when i see them, but i dont.

Anyways, just because a person can do something doesnt mean it's ok. They just need to do so with the understanding that the bible says dont do those things and they are probalby gona burn in hell.

Whatever. Say fetuses, say foetuses, say fetii, say foetii.
Just don't say babies like Commando2 did, because they aren't.
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Umm, okay then.

For a murder to happen, there has to be a death certificate. For there to be a death certificate, there has to be a birth certificate on that person. For there to be a birth certificate, that means a person has to be born. If there is an abortion, it is of an unborn fetus. That in itself argues that the person has not been born, and therfore is not technically alive. If you have something amputated, or liposucked out of you, you're losing cells, which are alive as well, so the arguement COULD be taken that you are murdering cells, or part of yourself, or having that done to you.

Fetuses are not babies.

The fetus doesn't have a completed, active nervous system until sometime late in the second trimester/early in the third. The "brain" you reference is a bundle of neo-differentiated nerve cells.
It's still aliving organism, regardless of wheter or not it has a "brain". Even though the fetus is not independent of the mother, it is definately capable of becoming independent, and there is nothing to stop it unless the mother has an abortion or drinks or something.


Go ahead. Tell us if you think those women deserve the option of abortion.
God has a purpose for that person to be on earth, so the fetus ought to be allowed to live.


And condoms are a 100% effective? Not.

If used carefully and properly, condoms work. If a condom breaks, put a new one on. It's as simple as that.


Imposition of one's religious morals onto another is reprehensible. And while we're at it, moral codes are not necessarily religious.
See my previous post. Just because you can doesnt mean you should. You can do whatever you want to, just do it with the undertanding that you may burn in hell.

In my book (of morals) its not murder unless you can prove that the victim (in this case the fetus) was sapient (self aware) at time of killing

If you have something amputated, or liposucked out of you, you're losing cells, which are alive as well, so the arguement COULD be taken that you are murdering cells, or part of yourself, or having that done to you.

Last time I checked, your arm is incapable of living a life on its own if you chop it off. If you meet an arm, tell me. I gotta see that. Fetuses have the potential to develop into human beings which do live lives...

Oh boy. This is a land mine waiting to explode. So if I set it off, sorry.

Just to warn you all, I am a Christian, and a Catholic on top of all that. I think that abortion should be illegal except for the whole rape/incest thingy and if it endangers the mother. Then, you should have a court order or some other type of legal proof that states you were raped/incested (?) or doctor's statement signed by a witnessing nurse to show you have permission to abort the baby.That's if the woman doesn't want the baby. Like so many have said before me, it's ultimately her choice. Otherwise, if there is not a law stating that some legal proof must be shown at time of abortion, we'll have a bunch of women who were careless and dumb showing up and claiming that they were raped or whatever.

It's been nice debating, but I have other stuff to do. I gotta go. Have fun without me.

It's still aliving organism, regardless of wheter or not it has a "brain". Even though the fetus is not independent of the mother, it is definately capable of becoming independent, and there is nothing to stop it unless the mother has an abortion or drinks or something.

If the fetus/zygote is not viable at time of abortion, it is not independant. What it might or might not become is of no consequence. If it is aborted, it ceases being capable of becoming independant, so it doesn't matter. And actually, in the very early stages, where elective abortions are aloud, zygotes don't meet the scientific requirments of being a separate organism. And no, I'm not talking about the brain, I'm talking about ability to respond to stimulus and... something else which I forget.

God has a purpose for that person to be on earth, so the fetus ought to be allowed to live.
Maybe their purpose is to be aborted so they can be reborn later on when the mother is better prepared to raise a child. If you force it to be born at the wrong time, you could be ruining it's life forever. Never mind that a lot of women don't believe in God, and so can't be forced to do anything just because of your religious opinion.

If used carefully and properly, condoms work. If a condom breaks, put a new one on. It's as simple as that.
Condoms can fail without appearing to break.

See my previous post. Just because you can doesnt mean you should. You can do whatever you want to, just do it with the understanding that you may burn in hell.

Good. Let me do what I want then, because I don't believe in hell.

It's still aliving organism, regardless of wheter or not it has a "brain". Even though the fetus is not independent of the mother, it is definately capable of becoming independent, and there is nothing to stop it unless the mother has an abortion or drinks or something.The fetus does not have the characteristics of a living organism until late in the pregnancy, at which time elective abortion is not legal in the U.S. Being capable of becoming a human being does not a human being make. If it did, then every woman who menstruates has murdered a potential human being to use your terminology.

God has a purpose for that person to be on earth, so the fetus ought to be allowed to live.Your god, not mine. Personally, I don't think your god exists, but if he does and if he really wants a woman to have to go through with a pregnancy due to rape he's a right bastard.

If used carefully and properly, condoms work. If a condom breaks, put a new one on. It's as simple as that.Even under perfect testing conditions, condoms are not rated 100% effective in preventing pregnancy. It's as simple as that.


You can do whatever you want to, just do it with the undertanding that you may burn in hell.Excellent. I take this to mean you don't support incorporating your religious morality into my code of laws. We'll leave to Hell to itself.

I believe all abortion is murder. Forget rape or incest. It's still murder.
even for tubal pregnancies and cases of severe fetal hydrocepahulus that would tear a woman apart if she attempted to deliver said fetus?

If the fetus/zygote is not viable at time of abortion, it is not independant. What it might or might not become is of no consequence. If it is aborted, it ceases being capable of becoming independant, so it doesn't matter. And actually, in the very early stages, where elective abortions are aloud, zygotes don't meet the scientific requirments of being a separate organism. And no, I'm not talking about the brain, I'm talking about ability to respond to stimulus and... something else which I forget.


Maybe their purpose is to be aborted so they can be reborn later on when the mother is better prepared to raise a child. If you force it to be born at the wrong time, you could be ruining it's life forever. Never mind that a lot of women don't believe in God, and so can't be forced to do anything just because of your religious opinion.


Condoms can fail without appearing to break.



Good. Let me do what I want then, because I don't believe in hell.
Baby-killer. :upyours:

Baby-killer. :upyours:

Try not to flame.

even for tubal pregnancies and cases of severe fetal hydrocepahulus that would tear a woman apart if she attempted to deliver said fetus?
What are those?

For a murder to happen, there has to be a death certificate. For there to be a death certificate, there has to be a birth certificate on that person. For there to be a birth certificate, that means a person has to be born. If there is an abortion, it is of an unborn fetus. That in itself argues that the person has not been born, and therfore is not technically alive. If you have something amputated, or liposucked out of you, you're losing cells, which are alive as well, so the arguement COULD be taken that you are murdering cells, or part of yourself, or having that done to you.

I rather like your logic there. ;)

IMHO, abortion is not murder. Frankly, if you removed a fetus from the mother, it would not be viable.

And I start to wonder where you draw the line on when life starts, if you call abortion murder?

What happens if you removed an egg from the mother (say, to help her fertilize it), successfully fertilized the egg, but then it was destroyed due to your negligence. Would that be (2nd degree) murder?

Would destroying the egg itself be murder?

Would a man flushing his semen down the toilet be murder?

Where does life begin, if not with sapience or birth?

Pro-choicers pwn you! Is it just the forums, or are a majority of NationStates players liberal?

I don't know whether this thread already exists here, but oh well.

I believe all abortion is murder. Forget rape or incest. It's still murder.

EDIT: This is a MORAL question, not legal. Sorry for forgetting that.
Good one...
Is taking someone's property unlawfully an illegal act in a non-legal sense? Is speeding over the posted limit breaking the road laws in a non-legal sense? Is it possible to illegally do something in a non-legal sense of the word?

Be honest, are you really a pro-choicer trying to discredit the pro-life stance by making them appear allergic to logic.....?

Yo, tards, if you don't like abortions, don't have one. Very very simple. If you feel abortion is the most heinous, disgusting, obscene thing in the world to do, don't have one. It's quite simply your right not to do so.

However, if another person wants one, it is well within there right to do so. And if any crazy-ass neo-christian right-wing evangelist comes down on the pro-choicers here on the forum, they are forgetting the separation of church and state laid down by the forefathers (and I'm canadian saying this!!) who lost may lives over the issue. This was done expressly for this reason. Remember, if abortion turns out to be evil in God's eyes, you anti-abortioners are still going to heaven, and the rest of us will go to hell. So what's it to you. Suck on your televangelist's cock, and leave those who want to have abortions alone.

I.E. don't turn into this.....--------> :sniper: AKA James Kopp. You fanatics scare the hell out of me...

Even if it was murder, who says murder is wrong?

If that question is too profound and it scares you, you probably are Christian.
If you take my question too seriously or actually believe that I condone murder, you probably likewise probably brain damaged.

Three words; Morning after pill, think about it

Three words; Morning after pill, think about it

Three words: Billions of sperm.

If that is too profound, I repeat the assertion that you probably are defective.

"For a murder to happen, there has to be a death certificate."

-- Shaddowlands

I would insult you, but you insult yourself so much by saying this, so why should I bother?

What are those?
well, a tubal pregnancy is when the zygot implants itself in the fallopian tube. if it is not removed, then the fallopian tube can burst, affecting future fertility and quite possibly the life of a woman.

hydrocephalus is when the fetal skull takes on fluid. this can casue it to swell up to 50 cm in diameter (the average adult skull is 20 cm, a woman will dilate 10 cm during labour) in such cases, the infant will not survive to gain consciousness and it will kill or severly cripple a woman to attempt to deliver in such instances. of course cesareans are possible options, but given the extreme likelyhood of death shortly after leaving the womb for the fetus, it's not worth putting the woman through that.

Three words; Morning after pill, think about it
Is this supposed to be an enlightening message aimed at the anti-abortionist who believes that pharmacy workers shouldnt have to dispense birth control?

Some say life begins at conception. That's just silly. If you were a soul, why would you jump in a body that hasn't even been made yet. That's like living in a house they just began construction on.

Generally I'm not this definite about anything, but yes, abortion is murder. Of course there's more involved in the question of whether and how abortion should be prevented, but that's not the question.

Some say life begins at conception. That's just silly. If you were a soul, why would you jump in a body that hasn't even been made yet. That's like living in a house they just began construction on.

If you were a soul why would you jump in a body and suffer a life of pain and torment at all? That's a terrible argument with absolutely no basis in anything.

I do not know if this has been mentioned but I don't feel like reading all the posts.

The only requirement for an organism to be considered alive, by science, is that the organism has its own unique genetic structure. Every single embryo has its own unique genetic structure from the moment it is formed.

I do not know if this has been mentioned but I don't feel like reading all the posts.

The only requirement for an organism to be considered alive, by science, is that the organism has its own unique genetic structure. Every single embryo has its own unique genetic structure from the moment it is formed.

There are a bunch of holes in that definition. First, is one cell not alive because it does not have a unique genetic structure? Is a person not alive because their DNA is identical throughout? Second, a dead organism still has different DNA from other organisms, but we don't consider it alive.

Why even red-necks should support abortion.

1) Most people who oppose Abortion are in favour of red-gun-control laws, including the right to shoot at trespassers upon their private property.
2) The body is a person's most private property

Then, we can adjust the word shoot at to equal kill - If my gun runs out of ammo, I should be able to use my gladius (short sword - like a long knife. Long shiny sharp thing. ) - right?

Then, if your body is your personal property, any living thing, regardless of consciousness or intelligence or sentience, you have the right to destroy it. If a woman choses to have this done in a sterile operation rather than with a gun, all the more power to her.

If you were a soul why would you jump in a body and suffer a life of pain and torment at all? That's a terrible argument with absolutely no basis in anything.
Free cookies when you get back to heavan. Don't look at me like that. I LOVE cookies.

But when does a soul enter the body, according to you? Some say that souls are nothing more than intrinsic anomalies brought about by development of thought proccesses in the brain.

The only requirement for an organism to be considered alive, by science, is that the organism has its own unique genetic structure. Every single embryo has its own unique genetic structure from the moment it is formed.Back to science class with you.

For something to be considered alive, it must
-be composed of cells
-acquire and use energy
-reproduce organisms like itself
-exhibit heredity
-as an organism, respond to its environment (including fight or flight responses, seek mates, seek food)

I don't know whether this thread already exists here, but oh well.

I believe all abortion is murder. Forget rape or incest. It's still murder.

EDIT: This is a MORAL question, not legal. Sorry for forgetting that.


O.K. I want to say something. Everyone in this country keeps saying stuff about Judeo-Christian moral system in this country. However all we ever hear about abortion is the clear uncut Christianity.
Here is the Jewish take, if a mother is the victim of rape, it's totally up to her if she carries the pregnancy to term or not. If some disease threatens the life of a woman in the event she goes to term with a pregnancy she MUST have an abortion.
Some other circumstances are matters where it is a matter of differing opinions, for example a woman who commits adultery and gets pregnant by her lover, that some say it's better if she has an abortion some say no.
In cases of women becomeing pregnant due to rape, which happens more often than you think, the woman is who decides, NOT someone else.
Illegitimacy is NOT a permissible reason for abortin in Jewish law, neither is potential deformity or genetic disease
It is not allowed in Jewish law to marry someone who has a genetic disorder and produce children with that person if the genetic disorder is known. It is also not allowed to put the word out that someone has a genetic disorder.
The Old Testament specificaly mentions diseases which cause people to bleed to death, but the same priciple is applied to other diseases that are genetic, such as Tay-Sachs.
Yes this question is in some ways a moral question. If a pregnancy endangers a woman with a husband and other children, it's the same as if she were defending herself from a mugger. What is gained if both she and the baby are dead? Tell me how that serves life. If you are mugged,or threatened with death, you can take defensive action, and it might kill the mugger, very sad, but necessary. This is not to say the unborn child is not a human life, of course it is a human life, but the mother's life comes first, not her convenience, not her whims, not her wishes,certainly not the whims of a rapeist, or a molestor, Why should those guys get a vote? Should they not rather get a bullet!? The woman's life, health and sanity come first.
Another thing to realize, is just because something is permitted legally, that doesn't make it mandatory.
If a man is against abortion, the man's part is to NOT HAVE SEX OUTSIDE OF MARRIAGE EVER ! As a man what a woman does about that isn't your business unless you are that woman's HUSBAND, who takes care of her. I would say too, that as women, maybe it's time women didn't spend so much of their time and money being huge temptations to men. It's no fair saying to men 'Don't treat me like a sex object!' when one is running around in all those peek-a-boo clothes, with belly peirceings and God knows whatall. Don't be a sex object. Have some self respect. I see a lot of women going around saying how Christian they are who are wearing tight pants, short skirts, low low necklines and short short sleeves, or wearing men's clothes, even in church. No one says anything, but it's wrong. Modern Northern European, North American fashions are wrong. They are not Christian. I do not hesitate to speake with ANY woman who dresses less than correctly as a Christian if she approaches me to join her church. If she says to me her church is preaching the entire Gospel and she presents herself immodestly, well I refer her to how she needs to dress. I tell her have a talk with her pastor if she doesn't hear me. If he won't set her straight, his church is not worth my dragging myself out from bed on Sunday.
Both men and women need to realize, sex has consequences. Sex is a lot of fun, in it's right place it's beautiful, but it is a huge responsibility and a privelege, not a right.
For the record, I'm female, a mother and a grandmother. You are hearing what I told my kids on that subject. I have one son, unmarried, and one daughter, married with two children.

Free cookies when you get back to heavan. Don't look at me like that. I LOVE cookies.

But when does a soul enter the body, according to you? Some say that souls are nothing more than intrinsic anomalies brought about by development of thought proccesses in the brain.

If there are souls I believe they enter the body at conception. If there aren't cells I believe that the life is unique and should be treated as a living thing at conception, so in either case the moment of conception is the last moment I accept birth prevention measure as acceptable. Contraceptives are fine with me, but once the zygot is formed killing it is murder.

Now we run into some trouble here because banning murder and prosecuting murderers is easy when there are records of the existance of the person, which is easy to do by tracking births. Preventing abortions would be much more difficult, and basically impossible if you were going to try to prevent abortions even from the moment of conception. In the mean time requiring women to report pregnancies or face prosecution while preventing them from having abortions is likely to lead to hidden pregnancies and many more home abortions which are more likely to harm the mother. In the end it just seems to me that terrible as it is there is no way to prevent abortions except to advise against having them.

I do not know if this has been mentioned but I don't feel like reading all the posts.

The only requirement for an organism to be considered alive, by science, is that the organism has its own unique genetic structure. Every single embryo has its own unique genetic structure from the moment it is formed.
So according to science we burried my father alive...

What's the problem with abortion if that's the definition of alive?

And just out of interest, in your mind how exactly are prosecuting authorities managing to secure murder convinctions when someone has to no longer be alive for murder to have occurred (legally) and yet according to any scientist who testifies (including the one who is supposed to establish a 'cause of death'), scientically no one has ceased to be alive?

What are those?
Read 'Human Body, Structure and Functions 10th Edition' by Fong and Scott any community college library will have it. They even have really good pictures of tubal pregnancies. You ought not even be having sex without knowing about this stuff!

What's with this "foetii" thing, anyway? It just looks like "fetus" with an "o" between "e" and "f".

uuum Latin, the basis for all medical terminology. Lots of Latin loan words in your English language too!

I don't know whether this thread already exists here, but oh well.

I believe all abortion is murder. Forget rape or incest. It's still murder.

EDIT: This is a MORAL question, not legal. Sorry for forgetting that.
murder, n., The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

it is impossible for a killing to qualify as murder if you eliminate the legal aspect. abortion is not illegal in the US, therefore it is not murder. it is impossible to commit murder against anything other than human being, as well, and fetuses do not currently have that status. therefore, abortion can only be murder if you choose to ignore the correct use of the English language...that's not principles, that's just poor speaking ability.

Good one...
Is taking someone's property unlawfully an illegal act in a non-legal sense? Is speeding over the posted limit breaking the road laws in a non-legal sense? Is it possible to illegally do something in a non-legal sense of the word?
Yep.
Be honest, are you really a pro-choicer trying to discredit the pro-life stance by making them appear allergic to logic.....?
Nope. Pro-lifer to the end.

yes, abortion is murder. aside from my moral standpoint (which is against ALL abortion) here are my Legal justifications.

Life-

"The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptaion to the environment originating from from within the organism."

the simplest complete cell possesses ALL of these qualities, and once conception occurs you have a Living Cell.

Murder-

"The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice."

Is an Embyo human? Well it certainly isn't a dog, therefore we can conclude that it is human. Do humans abort babies? Yes, always, except in Southpark (where it is done by mountain lions on occasion).

What do we have? A human killing another human-murder.

Though most people are not intelligent enough to realize this.

If you wish to argue with the facts, please do so, but beware, i will be forced to make you look very ignorant

Think of it this way, If a mother is not alowed to terminate the life of her children that are out of the womb, then why should she be aloowed to kill the ones still in the womb? She shouldn't.

The only, ONLY time when i believe this should ever be considered is Rape, Incest, or when the life of the mother is at risk, as these are the only extenuating circumstances. sadly, 90% of these cases, if not more, are cases where irresponsible and promiscuous women get pregnant and decide, "hmm, i really dont feel like having a baby, so ill kill it." They choose to murder a living thing instead of taking birth control pills, or at least having the man wear a condom. stupid, just plain stupid.

Yep.

Nope. Pro-lifer to the end.
Then why are you working so hard to discredit the postition if you really are not trying to undermine it?

Can you just clarify for me what how something can be illegal in a non-legal sense, please.

yes, abortion is murder. aside from my moral standpoint (which is against ALL abortion) here are my Legal justifications.

Life-

"The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptaion to the environment originating from from within the organism."

the simplest complete cell possesses ALL of these qualities, and once conception occurs you have a Living Cell.
Okay then.

Murder-

"The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice."

Is an Embyo human? Well it certainly isn't a dog, therefore we can conclude that it is human. Do humans abort babies? Yes, always, except in Southpark (where it is done by mountain lions on occasion).
Well, this book I'm holding isn't a dog. But it's not human either.
Illogical conclusion.

Then why are you working so hard to discredit the postition if you really are not trying to undermine it?
:confused:
Can you just clarify for me what how something can be illegal in a non-legal sense, please.
I an currently unable to come up with an explanation at this time. :(

To answer your question:

No.

Voted no because Murder is ILLIGAL killing ... right now it is legal in the USA so CANT be murder (not saying it is right or wrong but cant be murder)

one thing that I find interresting is if a man kills a pregnant woman, he can be tried for double murder, but if the woman kills her own fetus, it is legal

I'm not saying im on the pro-choice or pro-life side, I just thought I'd bring up what I think is a double standard in the law [varies state to state]

Salvius,

"The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice."

Just to make sure "...unlawful..."

Abortion is only murder if that is the law. Ergo abortion is murder in some times and places and not in others.

Which is why it is such a silly question, whether or not abortion is murder is irrelevent to whether or not it should be.

Before you get too carried away with opinioning on how intelligent dissenters to your views are, you might want to consider that being Irish does not make one Ireland;

Only one of these statements is true, can you pick which statement is doing it's own thing?

A human hair is not human

A human hair is a human, and hitting a human hair (even one not attached to anyone) is legally assault

That it is linguistically correct to describe something as human, does not in itself prove anything about whether or not that thing is a human for the purposes of legal protections and rights under the law

Things can be illegal in a non-legal sense

Did you guess which statement is doing it's own thing?

purely on morals it is murder. but then there is always more to an issue than ethics.
It is true that a killing is not murder if it is not against the law, therefore something cannot be murder based purely on morals. By definition of murder if it is not illegal it isnt murder, if it must be illegal to be murder, it cannot be murder purely on morals.

This isnt philosophy, a view or propaganda, it's English. Whether or not abortion is right, wrong, good, bad, one's own choice, or societies, is not proved by whether or not abortion is murder. There is no gain to either side in not calling anything that isnt illegal murder. The clear facts are abortion isnt illegal in many circumstances and is in many others, and can only be murder in the latter, and either way, it tells us nothing about whether or not abortion should be illegal, controlled, free for all or have some other accessability/limitation status.

To tell you all the truth it is still being argued by sceintists! No one really knows. Basicly everyone posting is posting there opinion :headbang: :sniper:

Basicly everyone posting is posting there opinion
*Gasp*
You deciphered me! :D

To tell you all the truth it is still being argued by sceintists! No one really knows. Basicly everyone posting is posting there opinion :headbang: :sniper:
no let me post again

MURDER = ILLIGAL KILLING

That means if it is legal it CAN NOT be "Murder"

We're debating about abortion here, not third world children

Precisely my point. Thank you for helping me to illustrate it.

Pro-Lifers such as yourself seem obsessed with the humanitarian and civil defense of entities that have yet to become civilians in this world.

And yet the very same people lift hardly a finger in support of the embattled civil rights of millions of LIVING, BREATHING HUMANS who already walk this earth.

Frankly this makes no sense to me, and I would appreciate it if you explained yourself. If someone cared so much about the civil liberties of an unborn fetus, it would make sense that such a person would care ten fold about the civil liberties of people who are already alive. And yet my impression of you is that you do not.


So tell me the truth. Do you care more about the unborn than you do of the already born? In fact, do you even care about unborn fetuses? Or is that just another talking point for you? I await a reply.

one thing that I find interresting is if a man kills a pregnant woman, he can be tried for double murder, but if the woman kills her own fetus, it is legal

I'm not saying im on the pro-choice or pro-life side, I just thought I'd bring up what I think is a double standard in the law [varies state to state]

Not true.

Legally, only a fetus in the thrid trimester of conception is entitled to civil rights.

If a man kills a pregnant woman in her first trimester, he is tried for only the woman's murder. If a pregnant woman aborts in the first trimester, she is not tried for murder.

If a man kills a pregnant woman in during the third trimester of pregnancy, he is tried for the murder of the woman and of her fetus. If a woman aborts an infant in the third trimester, she is tried for murder.

It is that simple.

It's a woman's right to choose whether she wants a child or not. Why have a child if you're not ready for one, or if you know they won't recieve the care and love that he or she deserves? Sure, some might say "put it up for adoption" but would the child be happy being shoved from house to house. The child could possibly never be adopted. What if the child had a disease and the mother didn't want to put him or her through a life like that? These parents could possibly not have enough money to pay for the things their child will require to keep him or her healthy. I'm not saying that it's right to have abortions willy nilly, but I think there are certain circumstances in which it is more than okay to have an abortion.

Ah be still a beating HEART or someone may think you are alive

Wasn't Scott Peterson convicted of two counts of murder in the first degree, the two victims being his wife and unborn child? If abortion isn't murder he should have been convicted of only one count of murder in the first degree.


My personal opinion is that abortion is murder, but I think legal abortions are necessary for safety reasons. I'd hate for the women of this nation to revert back to back ally abortions with coathangers.

To tell you all the truth it is still being argued by sceintists!
I doubt that.

No one really knows. Basicly everyone posting is posting there opinion :headbang: :sniper:
I'm confident that I know that abortion is illegal some places and times and not others and that if it is not illegal it cannot be the unlawful killing of a human and so cannot be murder.

It's not an opinion, it is normative deductive reasoning (ie able to provide a conclusion that is logically ironclad and foolproof if the premises are correct and the argument valid), applied to facts about the English language and legal systems throughout time and space.

If someone can show me the incorrect premise or the invalid (as in the truth of the premises does not ensure the truth of the conclusion) argument/s, I'll re-examine my reasoning.

I say nay. Pardon me for my extremely simplistic views, but I don't see it as murder, as the little bunion hasn't even been born yet. Might as well save misery from both the parent(s) and the child(ren) by popping it's head when it's still not cute. Let 'em grow up and tell 'em their dad is mommy's brother and there's a high possibility that the kid'll jump off a roof or something, thus ending the story in bloody death after all.
Although, it might be unpleasant for the fetus. I've never been aborted before, so I can't say for sure.

Yes I believe it's some form of murder. Knowingly killing life that could be can't be right. Yes I believe it's a women's choice, but I also don't understand how anyone with a conscience can kill off something that is in it's final stages of development. Ultimately if the person had any respect for themselves and life. They should be more mature and use a contraceptive before life starts to form. How would you like to know that you cannot exist because your mother aborted you? You wouldn't know you ever existed. Sure it wouldn't hurt, but everyone should have the chance at life. Sometimes it has to be done, but not all the time. My mom was 17 and the doctors asked if she wanted an abortion and my mom said no. If she would have said yes then I would have never existed to type this post. I am very grateful for a mom. Maybe some of you shoudl think about what you say. A fetus is us in our early stages. They are living human beings. They are just in very early stages. I wish no one was aborted for the wrong reasons. Some do it just because they can.

Yes I believe it's some form of murder. Knowingly killing life that could be can't be right.
That doesn't address the "human" bit or the "unlawful" bit.

Wasn't Scott Peterson convicted of two counts of murder in the first degree, the two victims being his wife and unborn child? If abortion isn't murder he should have been convicted of only one count of murder in the first degree.


My personal opinion is that abortion is murder, but I think legal abortions are necessary for safety reasons. I'd hate for the women of this nation to revert back to back ally abortions with coathangers.

You must have missed my last post. Allow me to repeat verbatim what I just said:

Legally, only a fetus in the thrid trimester of conception is entitled to civil rights.

If a man kills a pregnant woman in her first trimester, he is tried for only the woman's murder. If a pregnant woman aborts in the first trimester, she is not tried for murder.

If a man kills a pregnant woman in during the third trimester of pregnancy, he is tried for the murder of the woman and of her fetus. If a woman aborts an infant in the third trimester, she is tried for murder.

It is that simple.

That doesn't address the "human" bit or the "unlawful" bit.
No it wouldn't be unlawful unless there is a strict law in place. I only agree that there shouldn't be a strict law on this issue. As far as human being is concerned. If the heart is beating then it is alive. Just because it hasn't learned through experience doesn't mean it's fair to kill it.

To tell you all the truth it is still being argued by sceintists!

actually, no. there is no scientist who claims that abortion is murder, because that would simply be an incorrect use of the word "murder" and any person who is not interested in using correct words to describe things is not a scientist. there is no debate in the scientific community about whether abortion is murder, because it simply ISN'T according to the rules of the language we speak. there may be debate about whether the right to choose is one that should be guaranteed to all persons, but if you like i can post the stats showing that the more educated a person is about sex and reproduction the more permissive they are about abortion :).


No one really knows. Basicly everyone posting is posting there opinion :headbang: :sniper:
actually, i know. period. it's not my opinion, it's fact. abortion is not murder because the word murder cannot apply to the lawful ending of a non-human life. fetuses currently are not recognized as human persons under the law, and the killing of many fetuses is not illegal. also, even if human fetuses were granted the exact same rights as born human beings, it would be totally unjust to deny the right to choose; no born human person has any legal claim to the body of another human person, and there is no situation in which a human person may be forced to donate their body or tissues to maintain the life of another human.

let's say it again, very clearly:
IF FETUSES ARE GIVEN EXACTLY THE SAME RIGHTS AS ALL OTHER HUMANS THEN ABORTION SHOULD STILL BE 100% LEGAL ACCORDING TO THE BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS WE GRANT ALL HUMAN BEINGS. WHETHER OR NOT A FETUS IS A HUMAN PERSON IS TOTALLY IRRELEVANT TO THE ISSUE OF ITS LEGALITY.

*pokes head out of foxhole*

Looks like the bombs are a-droppin!

IF FETUSES ARE GIVEN EXACTLY THE SAME RIGHTS AS ALL OTHER HUMANS THEN ABORTION SHOULD STILL BE 100% LEGAL ACCORDING TO THE BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS WE GRANT ALL HUMAN BEINGS. WHETHER OR NOT A FETUS IS A HUMAN PERSON IS TOTALLY IRRELEVANT TO THE ISSUE OF ITS LEGALITY.

How so? If they are acknowledged as a human life, and the willful, premeditated taking of a human life is murder??

How so? If they are acknowledged as a human life, and the willful, premeditated taking of a human life is murder??
no human being may be compelled to donate their body or tissues to another human being, under any circumstances, even if they directly brought about the events causing the other being to require those tissues. a female, thus, has the right to end a pregnancy whenever she wants and for any reason, if we grant her and the fetus precisely equal rights. whether or not the fetus survives is not at issue in the slightest. if it can survive and be removed intact then our medical system would indicate that it should be thus removed, but if it cannot then the woman's wishes must still be honored. that is, unless we grant rights to the fetus that no living human being has, and if we ignore the rights of the female human experiencing the pregnancy.

(...) Just because it hasn't learned through experience doesn't mean it's fair to kill it.

yeah, right, whatever... but thousands of humans who have had meaningful lives and have touched other human beings lives die everyday from unnatural causes such as hunger, crime, medical negligence, lack of welfare and daily bombardments by the US. So I think it's kinda stupid to say "she's a murderer, she killed her flesh eating mutant parasite!!!". Why don't people complain a little about those other things (I know they do... but anyway, leave flesh-eating-parasite-"murderors" alone). After all you guys are making too much trouble about "killing" a single individual every what? 15 mothers? 20 mothers? Abortion is the least of our problems (if it's a problem at all... I say it's a solution).
And anyone who disagrees with me is clearly an idiot.