NationStates Jolt Archive

This thread will help determin on whether or not I will make a universe where 40k, ST, or SW class together for a battle of supremecy.
There will be no Gods (as it is God Modding anyway), but each of the three universes may use any species that have magical powers.

If this thread is a success, then these races/governments will be included. If I forgot any, let me know!

The Following Nations have chosen these factions:

Star Trek:
Federation/Star Fleet
Borg
Ferengii
Romulans
Klingons
Kazon
Dominion


40k:

Imperium of Man:
Falcania=Blood Angels
Gronde=Space Wolves
Dark Eldar
Eldar
Necrons
Tau:
Rinceweed
Pantycellen??
Orks
Chaos Hordes:
Chronosia= Chaos Marines
Christoniac= Chaos Marines
Christoniac= Chaos Marines
Tyranids
Squats

Star Wars:
New Republic(Rebel Alliance)
Old Republic/Jedi:
Free Eagles
Galactic Empire:
Industrial Experiment
Stellar Nations??
Xessmithia
Sith Empire (at several points in the SW universe, the Sith had several Empires):
Huntaer
Trade Federation
Yuusong Vong
Ssi-ruuk

As a bonus feture, a nation may choose to use technologies from any of these universes, or powers.

I actually want to see these universes butt heads.

I actually want to see these universes butt heads.

Ditto. WH40K would win, though.

Gotta have the 40K universe, if only for the amazingly totalitarian Imperium and the Orks... oh, and Necrons are damn fun too, though I'd also like to see 'Nids...

Far more fun than Star Trek, IMO. ;)

Throw them all together in one huge melee. You forgot Tyranids (40K) and Ssi-ruuk (SW).

You could add a lot more to Star Trek universe. Also, I dispute that 40K would win! you're a bit scuppered when your army gets vapourised! I mean come on, the best the Imperium has is technology gleamed from the dark ages!

You could add a lot more to Star Trek universe. Also, I dispute that 40K would win! you're a bit scuppered when your army gets vapourised! I mean come on, the best the Imperium has is technology gleamed from the dark ages!

OOC: Not true, their technology is future tech, what with lasguns and massive mile long starships and Leman Russ tanks, it is just that technology has not advanced for the Imperium, they rely on "Standard Construct Templates" to build their weapons (diefied CAD drawings) and worship a "Machine God" which they believe governs all technology, not bothering to understand circutry and electronics, and such, so no research gets done.

Hey, you forgot the Nids!

The nids would eat everything, quite literaly, too.

and it would be pretty damned hard to kill off all the orks

If i do this, i'd of course do SW, as Imperials. 3 SSDs, Eye of Palpatine, Death Star, hundreds of SDs.

Just pop into Terra with the Death Star and blow it up. No more Emperor, no more Beacon-thingy (Can't remember name), so on more safe warp travel. Everyone that tried would be swung off coure, corupted by chaos, or whatnot. Many small empres would be carved, tHuimanity would fight amongst itself, orks would have fun, nids would eat more, eldar would do whatever they do, ect. The only organised resistance would be Necrons and Tau. And they'd be busy fighting the rest of them

Beacon-thing? Astronomicon?

A SW fleet would be crushed before it got anywhere near Terra. The fury of Mars and Terra would crush them immediatly.

Without their gods, a lot of the bite is taken out of the 40K factions, especially the Imperium (Now limited to four light year jumps) and the Chaos Forces (Nuff said).

EDIT: No. The defences of Terra cannot defeat a Death Star. Not even close.

and each SSd is easily capable of taking on a small fleet.
Multiply that times 3, then add defensive fire, and tehy could take a very large fleet. And then add the SDs in, then all the Ties.

Rebels would be defeated.

A single Death Star is equivalent to millions of ships. Both of them would be practically invincible to any capitol ship assault, the second one immune to any fighter assault. Even the first DS would be next to impossible to destroy even with fighter assaults if it had a competent commander who would actually send out its fighters to engage. In ANH only the pilots under the direct command of Darth Vader launched and attacked the rebels. Had Moff Tarkin not been so arrogant and launched the DS1's main fighter force the rebels would have lost the Battle of Yavin.

I would say Star Trek would win, the Borg would have trashed all...... But i am interested in a rp where all three universes collide.

Wrong Forum.

Wrong Forum.

He's mitigated it by suggesting it as RP anyway.

Meh...

Count me in. 40K would win; the only one that has a chance against 40K is SW

WH40K
There's nothing like a good bunch of Ultramarines kicking some Chaos armored ass...

And there's no fleet or jedi order with enough power to destroy the Imperium.
A couple of Terminator squads would take care of them... :P

Battlestar: Galactica.

Or Halo.

sorry GS; its only the three listed.

Jedi are no match for a Psyker or Sorceror

I know, but they'd still kick their arses.

no they wouldn't !
a psyker would cast a VORTEX on the jedis and they would die instantly
(and psykers are 100% immune to jedi mind tricks)

SW would win for a few reasons.

1. 200 Gigaton/shot medium turbolasers, as seen in the canon SW2ICS.
2. Strategic mobility, Darth Maul crossed half the galaxy in less than a day. (Going from Coruscant in the core to tatooine in the ass end of space before morning.)
3. Industrial capacity. They were able to build a 900km battlestation (with a volume of billions of star destroyers) in six years at the absolute longest. Secretly even.

Personally, I like 40k more, it just seems like a richer if not more depressing universe, but SW takes this.

Trekwanking aside, 40k beats them easily. 40k also beats SW on the ground, but that advantage is nearly nullified by SW's space superiority.

HAve you ever played BFG? Most ships are over a klick long! They definitely have more gunz than a star destroyer too! And on industrial capacity: There are hundreds of thousands of forgeworlds. Each completely dedicated to producing military equipment.

HAve you ever played BFG? Most ships are over a klick long! They definitely have more gunz than a star destroyer too! And on industrial capacity: There are hundreds of thousands of forgeworlds. Each completely dedicated to producing military equipment.

The Imperator-class Star Destroyer is 1.6 km long. And it's a destroyer, with the same role that destroyers have in today's navy. There are much larger and more powerful ships in the Imperial Navy that are the heavy hitters. The fleet and Endor was a small grouping of ships that were only there to keep the Rebels at the Death Star's mercy. Which was 60% completed in a mere 6 months in secret.

That's right, the Empire could build a 900km diameter, planet-destroying, billion ship equivalent battlestation in under a year in complete secrecy.

Combined with SW hyper-drive SW would own WH40K in space battles. And the Empire could kick some ass on the ground too thanks to their SD-10 Battle Droids as well as X-1 Viper Battle Droids.

Two words: Planet Killer. Or how about these: Blackstone Fortress. Who needs to make new superweapons when we've already got plenty around? And then there's the fact that nearly every Imperium ship is capable of virus-bombing/melta-torping a planet into oblivion.

And I very much doubt that the classification of a Star Destroyer is "destroyer," what with a dreadnought being smaller than a Victory-class. Also, want to go into TIE fighters vs. Thunderhawks? And then there's teleporting Terminators. Who could probably take over a DeathStar by themselves, judging by the poor aim and bad armor of your average SW Storm Trooper.

Two words: Chaos Gods.
One word: Immaterium
One word: C'tan
A few words: Tyranids- inexhaustable, innumerable, killing machines

40k wins. The Death Star can blow up a planet. A C'tan can eat the star of that solar system, enslave/eat all life forms in the system, and then wash it all down with a nice toasty helping of Death Star.

And just think of what Slaneesh might do with a sphere the size of a small moon. Urrghh.....I think I'll be sick.

Got it, magic beats superior technology and tactics :rolleyes:

Tyranids invading a Death Star; that'd be cool. KInda like when they attacked that Craftworld....Ilyatar; I think. Very cool...
I'd regard Otagia's view more strongly than Samtonia's, after all, the start of the thread stated none of the 'gods' from any universe.
WH40K has more than enough to compensate; relentless Tyranid hordes, lumbering legions of Necrons; the advanced Tech of the Tau; countless others

The Q continuum. They can alter the universe with a snap of their fingers. Seriously, if you want to do this, you have to put them in.

j/k :p

I think that would quite literally be Godmoding.

I've got some serious suggestions though. Add the Kazon, and the Dominion.

SW would win for a few reasons.

1. 200 Gigaton/shot medium turbolasers, as seen in the canon SW2ICS.
2. Strategic mobility, Darth Maul crossed half the galaxy in less than a day. (Going from Coruscant in the core to tatooine in the ass end of space before morning.)
3. Industrial capacity. They were able to build a 900km battlestation (with a volume of billions of star destroyers) in six years at the absolute longest. Secretly even.

Personally, I like 40k more, it just seems like a richer if not more depressing universe, but SW takes this.

Trekwanking aside, 40k beats them easily. 40k also beats SW on the ground, but that advantage is nearly nullified by SW's space superiority.

Groundwise? HAR! That's what "Scortched Earth" is all about. 1 SD can scortch a planet in an hour. Nothing survives. Ergo, the Imperial Navy wins this one hands down between the SSDs and Death Stars.

"SCREW EM! Blow up EVERYTHING!" Hee hee hee.

111 words:
Well, 40K does seem ever so slightly implausible in its approach.

'There are a kajillion trillion billion Tyranids, and they're all big and spikey.'
'Why don't they destroy all the other factions, then?'
'Er.... Hey, look over there!'

'There are these gods, with millions of evil, spikey demons and cultists and stuff, and one of them's got this ship thing, it can, like, destroy a planet. Yeah, it's cool.'
'Why don't they destroy all the other factions, then?'
'Er.... Hey, look over there!'

'There are these, like, really huge things that eat ... er ... stars!'
'Why don't they destroy all the other factions, then?'
'Er.... Hey, look over there!' *runs*

OK; the Tyranid Hive Fleets keep getting beaten back by factions like the Imperium, Eldar, etc.

Chaos Space Marines are usually confined to areas of real/warp overlap; and the most notably, the Eye of Terror, is blockaded by the Cadian gate. If your wondering why they haven't wiped everyone out, well its not for lack of trying. The Horus Heresy, the 13 Black Crusades by which Abbadon has ravaged the galaxy? Attempts to destroy others; beaten back by the forces of Order.

I don't know much about the C'tan, but their mostly manipulators in the background; I read somewhere that the machine God could be a C'tan. They work through their servants, but can be killed; by the Talismans of Vaul

(My knowledge of Necron/C'tan is blurry, sorry about any inconsistencies)

OK; the Tyranid Hive Fleets keep getting beaten back by factions like the Imperium, Eldar, etc.

Chaos Space Marines are usually confined to areas of real/warp overlap; and the most notably, the Eye of Terror, is blockaded by the Cadian gate. If your wondering why they haven't wiped everyone out, well its not for lack of trying. The Horus Heresy, the 13 Black Crusades by which Abbadon has ravaged the galaxy? Attempts to destroy others; beaten back by the forces of Order.

I don't know much about the C'tan, but their mostly manipulators in the background; I read somewhere that the machine God could be a C'tan. They work through their servants, but can be killed; by the Talismans of Vaul

(My knowledge of Necron/C'tan is blurry, sorry about any inconsistencies)

Off topic: In the current Black Crusade on NS I did a fairly good job of dealing out destruction to Chaos ships. That was fun :D

This youst has to end up as roleplaying!


Ahhhhhhh. Come to papa Nurgle lets spread the plage and pestilence throughout the universe to please him.... :D

40k would win.

The ground troops would completely obliterate SW or ST. SW might have the advantage in ships, but 40k can board, capture, and, given enough time (and captured engineers), reverse-engineer SW technology. The tech-preists do know the basics of technology, as is evidenced by their analysis of alien tech in the various Codices.

If the SW folks were dumb enough to attack Terra (how would they even know the location of Terra, anyway?) with the Death Star, You can fully expect the entire chapter of Grey Knights Space Marines to teleport aboard. The poor stormtrropers wouldn't even stand a chance. Heck, Darth Vader wouldn't even stand a chance, if more than 5 or 6 attack him. Besides the fact that Terra will be one of the most heavily defended planets in the Imperium, with dozens of ships that are the equivalent to Star Destroyers, besides the fact that there is a sodding shipyard next door, as soon as they see enemy ships in the Sol system, they're going to call for help from everyone in the vicinity.

Off topic: In the current Black Crusade on NS I did a fairly good job of dealing out destruction to Chaos ships. That was fun :D

Indeed; but dealing damage right back to you was also fun ;)

40k would win.

The ground troops would completely obliterate SW or ST. SW might have the advantage in ships, but 40k can board, capture, and, given enough time (and captured engineers), reverse-engineer SW technology. The tech-preists do know the basics of technology, as is evidenced by their analysis of alien tech in the various Codices.

If the SW folks were dumb enough to attack Terra (how would they even know the location of Terra, anyway?) with the Death Star, You can fully expect the entire chapter of Grey Knights Space Marines to teleport aboard. The poor stormtrropers wouldn't even stand a chance. Heck, Darth Vader wouldn't even stand a chance, if more than 5 or 6 attack him. Besides the fact that Terra will be one of the most heavily defended planets in the Imperium, with dozens of ships that are the equivalent to Star Destroyers, besides the fact that there is a sodding shipyard next door, as soon as they see enemy ships in the Sol system, they're going to call for help from everyone in the vicinity.

Hello? Does controlling an entire galaxy mean nothing to you? SW has trillions of soldiers, and even more combat droids (aforementioned SD-10 & X-1), and 25,000 Star Destroyers. Plus, for that matter, how would 40K forces know the location of the SW galaxy?

40K vs. SW would be very evenly matched if all supernatural stuff is removed.
Make it, make it, make it! I want to slag some Space Marines.

Well, even with the supernatural removed thats millions upon millions of Space Marines, Imperial Guardsmen, Traitor LEgions, Tyranids, Necrons, Eldar, Dark Eldar, etc etc; need I go on?

The myriad of differant factions prove that SW has no chance against all of that. Entire worlds harvested by Tyranids or Necrons; subject to Exterminatus by the Imperium, or destroyed by Chaos...

WH40K wins hands down because the entire universe is motivated for war; not a totalitarian dictatorship clinging to power while getting tanked by a small group of rebels; not exploring the Universe for the good of humankind. Its all about war, and the furthering of it. That and its far technologically superior; being the 41st Millenium

yay tau

tau rock

Groundwise? HAR! That's what "Scortched Earth" is all about. 1 SD can scortch a planet in an hour. Nothing survives. Ergo, the Imperial Navy wins this one hands down between the SSDs and Death Stars.Why did they build an OMFG DEATSTAR when they can do the same job with a standard vessel?

Righto. And since the movies show that their shiny ships tend not to do this job, errr... No, they don't, despite any and all claims of Star Wars fanatics wishing their favourite show had the biggest steel penii, too (And heck, it does have it, with the deatstar. Now, is it really necessary to have the most competent semen, too?)

2. Strategic mobility, Darth Maul crossed half the galaxy in less than a day. (Going from Coruscant in the core to tatooine in the ass end of space before morning.)Necrons cross the entire galaxy in the blink of an eye...

Hello? Does controlling an entire galaxy mean nothing to you? SW has trillions of soldiers, and even more combat droids (aforementioned SD-10 & X-1), and 25,000 Star Destroyers. Plus, for that matter, how would 40K forces know the location of the SW galaxy?Trillions of soldiers who suffer ten or more casualities per civilian attacking them, (No wonder, what with using completely useless armour reducing their maneuverability) and whose APC- esque equipment is taken out by stone- age teddybears. Or the droids, oh yes... Who suffer exactly the same.

Now, that we have established this... What exactly is so great about having a discussion about whose favourite SF show is wankier? Personally, I would be reasonably frustrated by it being the wankiest... Luckily, it's not.

Why did they build an OMFG DEATSTAR when they can do the same job with a standard vessel?

Because they can't do the same job with a standard vessel? While a Star Destroyer can slag a planet's surface in an hour, it can't do that if the target has a shield, like Alderaan. The Death Star is the only SW weapon available that can punch through strong planetary shields with expediency.

Righto. And since the movies show that their shiny ships tend not to do this job, errr... No, they don't, despite any and all claims of Star Wars fanatics wishing their favourite show had the biggest steel penii, too (And heck, it does have it, with the deatstar. Now, is it really necessary to have the most competent semen, too?)

Where's the proof that the Star Destroyers can't do this? Besides, the death star is more than just a big planet destroying superweapon, it's a symbol of the Empire's immense resources and the Emperor's small penis.

Necrons cross the entire galaxy in the blink of an eye...

Very good. Why haven't they annhilated all the other factions yet? Further, what are the requirements of this ability, do they need preexisting gates, special fuel, et cetera?

Trillions of soldiers who suffer ten or more casualities per civilian attacking them, (No wonder, what with using completely useless armour reducing their maneuverability) and whose APC- esque equipment is taken out by stone- age teddybears. Or the droids, oh yes... Who suffer exactly the same.

Trillions of soldiers who can simply be piled onto Marines until the Space Marines are literally crushed beneath them.

Anyway, as for the APC, let me tell you that the AT-ST certainly isn't an APC. It carried two people, it's more of a hummer/Light Recon Vehicle than an APC. The APCs are the AT-ATs, the ones which the stone-age teddy bears couldn't take out. The ones that the rebels had trouble taking out with artillery.

As for the droids, we only see Seperatist droids in AOTC. Those are an entirely different breed from the Imperial droids like the SD-10. Seperatist droids are meant to be mass produced for practically nothing, Imperial Droids much less so.

Now, that we have established this... What exactly is so great about having a discussion about whose favourite SF show is wankier? Personally, I would be reasonably frustrated by it being the wankiest... Luckily, it's not.

Absolutely nothing. I just like poking holes in arguements. I do this to the trekkies too. :)

I'd do it to the Warsies if their wank wasn't sanctioned by canon. Grr...

Don't really know what 40k is, so SW

Let's take a look at some EU wank, like the SunCrusher, the Eclipse and Sovereign class star destroyers, and a Jedi from the Valley of the Jedi,

1) the Sun Crusher, a small craft with impenetrable armour and the ability to destroy a star and thus a system of planets,

2) the Eclispe/Sovereign class, designed to carry one of the death stars superlasers as a main armament, while not enough to destroy the planet, it can certainly make it unlivable.

3) Jedi from the VOTJ, the valley contains the harnessed power of thousands of Jedi and Sith, If tapped into by a Jedi, he can do literally anything that is possible in the force.

A single Death Star is equivalent to millions of ships. Both of them would be practically invincible to any capitol ship assault, the second one immune to any fighter assault. Even the first DS would be next to impossible to destroy even with fighter assaults if it had a competent commander who would actually send out its fighters to engage. In ANH only the pilots under the direct command of Darth Vader launched and attacked the rebels. Had Moff Tarkin not been so arrogant and launched the DS1's main fighter force the rebels would have lost the Battle of Yavin.

Do you know that the only difference between DS1 and DS2 was that the DS2 had a grille over the exhaust port. A few inches of steel could have scuppered the entire Rebel Plot.

Anyway, Do you know how much it would cost to build a space-station the size of a small moon? They only made them in the hope of wiping out their only enemy once and for all.

And if the tau are featured I can't wait to set fire to them. I HATE tau. Anyway, if the 40K universe gets in, that means that I get Blood Angels (Wootage)

Two words: Chaos Gods.
One word: Immaterium
One word: C'tan
A few words: Tyranids- inexhaustable, innumerable, killing machines

40k wins. The Death Star can blow up a planet. A C'tan can eat the star of that solar system, enslave/eat all life forms in the system, and then wash it all down with a nice toasty helping of Death Star.

And just think of what Slaneesh might do with a sphere the size of a small moon. Urrghh.....I think I'll be sick.\

You are allowed to use what ever magic, but NO GODS. I mentioned that as a rule in this thread.

Fair play on the C'tans, as they are basically sun gods, but Slaneesh is a greater Daemon.

Don't really know what 40k is, so SW

Let's take a look at some EU wank, like the SunCrusher, the Eclipse and Sovereign class star destroyers, and a Jedi from the Valley of the Jedi,

1) the Sun Crusher, a small craft with impenetrable armour and the ability to destroy a star and thus a system of planets,

2) the Eclispe/Sovereign class, designed to carry one of the death stars superlasers as a main armament, while not enough to destroy the planet, it can certainly make it unlivable.

3) Jedi from the VOTJ, the valley contains the harnessed power of thousands of Jedi and Sith, If tapped into by a Jedi, he can do literally anything that is possible in the force.

You for got the Star Forge form KOTOR 1. The Star Forge is a huge manufacturing space station which could spitt out over 2000 star destroyers in a year (1 RL day). That was how the sith almost (or did, depending on if you chose the good side or the bad side) conquer the Old Republic 5000 years before the rise of the Empire. Imagin that thing spitting out all of the tie fighters the empire ever created. Not to mention, it's reserved for the Dark Side of the force. I didn't invent this thing, by the way. Bioware and Lucas Arts did.

well that's just bloody stupid.

40k would win.

The ground troops would completely obliterate SW or ST. SW might have the advantage in ships, but 40k can board, capture, and, given enough time (and captured engineers), reverse-engineer SW technology. The tech-preists do know the basics of technology, as is evidenced by their analysis of alien tech in the various Codices.

If the SW folks were dumb enough to attack Terra (how would they even know the location of Terra, anyway?) with the Death Star, You can fully expect the entire chapter of Grey Knights Space Marines to teleport aboard. The poor stormtrropers wouldn't even stand a chance. Heck, Darth Vader wouldn't even stand a chance, if more than 5 or 6 attack him. Besides the fact that Terra will be one of the most heavily defended planets in the Imperium, with dozens of ships that are the equivalent to Star Destroyers, besides the fact that there is a sodding shipyard next door, as soon as they see enemy ships in the Sol system, they're going to call for help from everyone in the vicinity.

Of course Darth Vader wouldn't stand a chance. He didn't master all of the dark side, and not to mention his armor makes his lightsaber fighting clumsy. Naga Shadow, Exar Kun, all of the ancient Sith Lords who knew how to handle the dark side properly and were masters at the lightsaber would kick all of the Grey Knights butt. A jedi/sith master in KOTOR 2 mentioned that the ancient sith lords make "modern" (KOTOR 1 and 2) Jedi lightsaber fighting look like "Children playing with sticks." No joke.

Ditto. WH40K would win, though.

Damn straight. Just one Imperial torpedo is 200 feet long! That'd blow the hell out of any ST or SW ship. And their ships would make star destroyers seem small.

Damn straight. Just one Imperial torpedo is 200 feet long! That'd blow the hell out of any ST or SW ship. And their ships would make star destroyers seem small.

Even though an Imperial torpedo is 200 feet long, it won't break through a star destroyers's sheilds. That's why in the movies and video games you have to take out the shield generators (two on top, one on bottom) and then take out the bridge. And another thing, an imperial torpedo also may be more powerfull than a SD's Turbolasers, a star destroyer contains more Turbolasers and Ion cannons (60 each). One last thing, a SD is 1.6 Killometers long, which is about a mile.

You are missing so many civilizations in SW... There are tons you can ues:

general Terran (run o the mill humans, mostly civies on places like Correlia and Alderaan, but can be usable)
Pirates (generic space buccaneers, what more is there to say?)
Galactic empire
Old republic
New Republic/rebel Alliance
Jedi
Sith
Mon Calamari
Ssi Ruuvi (spelling? they are the soul stealers from SW. They force a truce between the rebels and the Empire for a while)
Naboo (specialized tech, trust me)
Sepretalist (spelling? trade federation, Techno-union army, etc. Dudes from SW2)
Wookies (nuff said. live on Kasshyk, again, spelling?)
Bothans (really only good as spies)
Gungans (If you have a way to get them there :rolleyes: )

Etc... there are a crap load of guys, minor players especially, like the Camino (cloner dudes from SW2), hutts, and the neighbors of the wookies, but meh, you never really get to know their tech enough for them to be good.

And of coarse the loveable, anti-force creatures, the Ysalamari. (spelling?) No one can argue with a buble several meters (I want to say 10-20, but don't quote me) where the force can not be harnessed/does not exist. BUT, they're not intelligent, so don't call them a civilization... more like a "tool."

Star Trek has all those and Vulcans, and several others. I'm not really up to date with the new ST... :(

Sry, but those star wars dudes could make it interesting, especially if we get some collision between the universes AND the groups inside each universe. Cross-universe alliances would rock too.

And a note about that post about some inperial torpeedoes... The galactic empire created a galaxy gun. Projectiles capable of destroying entire solar systems from half the universe away (bless hyperspace ^_^)

No endorse, you're putting individual species up. Most of those come under either Republic, Empire, Sith, Old Republic, Separatists, etc. Pirates is one possibility though (but they're just bandits, they would avoid a fight until it was over, then come in a scavenge anything half decent).

And I already mentioned the Ssi-ruuk... but no-one noticed. Sad.

No endorse, you're putting individual species up. Most of those come under either Republic, Empire, Sith, Old Republic, Separatists, etc. Pirates is one possibility though (but they're just bandits, they would avoid a fight until it was over, then come in a scavenge anything half decent).

And I already mentioned the Ssi-ruuk... but no-one noticed. Sad.

Thanks for mentioning that. Sorry for not listing the Ssi-ruuk.

I'd just like to point out that I, unfortunately, am a bit of a nerd about all 3 of these.

First off, if you were to put the 3 sides in space combat (To choose the strongest individual sides, we could go for Borg or Federation from Star Trek, Necrons or Space Marines from WH40K, and The Empire with it's fleet at the peak of it's size and power).

First off, the Star Trek side would be the first to lose, as I believe it has been proven many a time that Boba Fett's 'Slave One' alone is enough to take out the Enterprise-D will ease, and even the Borg would be wiped out since they probably can't adapt to stuff if they're vaporised instantly. And, even if they manage to survive, they would have to face the 40K Necrons (Borg except better in pretty much every way), and that would be the end of them.

So, 40K Vs. Star Wars.

40K has the immediate advantage here. Necrons just don't die, their weapons can peel apart a Star Destroyer or even a Deathstar in an instant using their unique Gauss weapons, which basically peel any target, wether Tank, Spaceship, or even Infantry, apart like an onion.
The Space Marines, on the other hand, just have enough conventional firepower to make even the Deathstar feel inadequate (Exterminatus, the destruction of a planet, is, although not common, easily possible in the 40K universe by a battlefleet of Space Marines or Imperial Guard).

The Empire of course has it's one hit wonder, the Deathstar. With it, they could (Possibly) destroy a few Space Marine ships before they obliterate it (Remember, your average Space Marine battle barge is....well, let's just say an Imperial Guard battleship measures up at 5.5Km. And this is Space Marines, the best of the best. Be prepared to watch as they overcompensate for a LOT of things). As for the Star Detroyers, TIE fighters, etc., they would probably just last as long as it takes for the Space Marines or Necrons to destroy the DS, so they can turn their fire on the smaller Empire ships.

So, in Space Combat, 40K has no equal.

(In ground combat, I have no idea just who would win, except that no one can really beat Necrons very easily, so even massive quantities of Imperial or Borg/Federation ground forces would have trouble against a sizeable Necron force)

Ah, finally, some sense. 40K has planet killers in every fleet, not just two large, over-compensating demolition spheres. Also, Abaddon's Planet-Killer: Frags a planet in one shot. More maneuverable than the Death Star. In BFG, shoots a line across the table, everything on that line pretty much DIES. This thing would just shoot the DS and pop the generators.

And don't tell me that a 200 ft. torpedo wouldn't go through the shields. Fighters made it fine, and they aren't much smaller! And we all know that impenetrable shields are god-modding of the worst kind, and thus non-existant. Hell, even DemonLordEnigma only has shields rated up to 60 teratons! Who want's to do the math on how much boom a 200 ft long super-fusion bomb has?

Oh, and the reason 'Crons haven't pwned j00 all yet is that they're just waking up. They went into hibernation after destroying nearly all life in the galaxy billions of years ago. So, they HAVE destroyed all the other factions. They just missed a few cells that evolved into Eldar, Tau, Homo Sapiens and Orkses.

40k by far(if they ever stopped fighting)

points:(just against star wars)
1 jedi have nothing on psykers and daemons
2 Daemon sword would pwn a lightsabre anyday and when it cuts into the jedi absorb his soul

The death star would do nothing to the eye of terror except get uncountable p*ssed of daemons swarming it

jedi/droids/rebels/stormtroopers would get massacred by the outnumbering forces of space marines(Chaos as well) eldar nids orks crons tau and IG

In space the planet killers would wipe out both death stars with one shot provided one was behind the other(no kidding it would)same goes for blackstone fortresses.

By the way i do like star wars it's just easier to make fun of than star trek.

Ah, finally, some sense. 40K has planet killers in every fleet, not just two large, over-compensating demolition spheres. Also, Abaddon's Planet-Killer: Frags a planet in one shot. More maneuverable than the Death Star. In BFG, shoots a line across the table, everything on that line pretty much DIES. This thing would just shoot the DS and pop the generators.

And don't tell me that a 200 ft. torpedo wouldn't go through the shields. Fighters made it fine, and they aren't much smaller! And we all know that impenetrable shields are god-modding of the worst kind, and thus non-existant. Hell, even DemonLordEnigma only has shields rated up to 60 teratons! Who want's to do the math on how much boom a 200 ft long super-fusion bomb has?

Yeah? And SW has planet killers in every capital ship. 40k has little to match the raw weapons yields that SW can pump out. Or do I really have to mention the Tera/petaton level shields? Or the Heavy Turbo Lasers that put out teratons of damage per shot?

The 200 foot torpedo wouldn't go through shields primarily because it IS so big. The fighters were able to get through the Death Star's shields because they were so small. Fighters are at best, half the size of 40k torpedos. Although I'd say they're more likely a third of that.

A 200 foot torpedo is not all bomb. On the contrary, most of that would be engine and tracking gear.

That reminds me, there is no way in hell that the Admech will ever reverse engineer SW tech. It will be declared Heretical before then.

As for the Necrons: I don't know enough about them, but let me ask this: If they're as uber as you claim in ship-ship combat, why haven't the few who have awoken completely destroyed the Imperium fleet? Or the Eldar? Or whoever? Because what you're telling me is that even with a few ships awake, they should utterly dominate everything else in space.

Finally: SW loses on the ground, I think that's a given. But space is where the battles will be decided, and in that area, SW has a higher capability than most of the 40k powers.

Oh yeah, before I forget: The Empire has signifigantly more industrial capacity than most of 40k. They were able to build two gigantic battlestations secretly in only a few years. Nobody in 40k AFAIK has ever demonstrated industrial capacity even close to that.

Barring supernatural crap like the GEoM, 40k loses to SW most of the time. Now, it isn't the one sided slaughter that SWvsST is, but SW is still better in this particular case.

As for the Necrons: I don't know enough about them, but let me ask this: If they're as uber as you claim in ship-ship combat, why haven't the few who have awoken completely destroyed the Imperium fleet? Or the Eldar? Or whoever? Because what you're telling me is that even with a few ships awake, they should utterly dominate everything else in space.
It all comes down to numbers. There are alot more Imperium ships around than there are Necron ships that are awake. Also, you still haven't addressed Tyranids. Hell, in expanded universe SW, the Yuuzhan'Vong conquered most of the New Republic, and they have biotech, too. And they have no where near the number of ships the Imperium or the Hive Fleets.

It all comes down to numbers. There are alot more Imperium ships around than there are Necron ships that are awake. Also, you still haven't addressed Tyranids. Hell, in expanded universe SW, the Yuuzhan'Vong conquered most of the New Republic, and they have biotech, too. And they have no where near the number of ships the Imperium or the Hive Fleets.

Yes, and do you recall why the Vong were able to decimate the Republic? For a few reasons: The Republic had just been fighting a long and exhausting war with the Imperial Remnants, as well as the fact that the Rebublic was so political that they couldn't get their heads out of their proverbial asses to see the threat before it was too late. The Vong agent in the NR (I'll be assed if I can remember his name) explicitly stated that if the Empire was still strong, the Vong would have been crushed like the bugs they are.

What's more important is that the Vong had the weapons yields necessary to hurt the Republic ships with a reasonable degree of ease. Something which most of the 40k powers don't have. Now 40k weapons are able to damage Wars shields, but it's going to take a few of them. It isn't like trek where it would take hundreds of photon torpedos to even dent Imperial shields. :)

My point is that the Wars weapons yields and shield strength will more than make up the difference in numbers compared to the hive fleets. And the vast imperial production abilities will erase the number disadvantage quickly against all but the largest hive fleets. Remember, you're talking about a power that built over 60% or a 900 kilometer battlestation in six months on at the earliest and six years at the absolute latest. That 900 kilometer battlestation that has a volume of billions of star destroyers.

And a planet destroyer makes it pop like a baloon. Anyway, I don't think anyone has tonnage for 40K weaponry available, so that argument is kinda moot due to lack of info. Still, melta-torps definitely have REALLY high tonnage, at least in the teratons. They poke holes in planetary crusts for chrissake!

I would say Star Trek would win, the Borg would have trashed all...... But i am interested in a rp where all three universes collide.

Please, the Borg are the space going equivalent of brain dead zombies. They are not an intelligent enemy, nor are they even an equivalent one. Anyway, it wouldn't matter if they were, the difference in firepower between ST and SW & 40K is enough that a single hit would shred a Cube. This is double digit megaton range firepower vs hundreds of gigatons, it's not even remotely close.

Even though an Imperial torpedo is 200 feet long, it won't break through a star destroyers's sheilds. That's why in the movies and video games you have to take out the shield generators (two on top, one on bottom) and then take out the bridge. And another thing, an imperial torpedo also may be more powerfull than a SD's Turbolasers, a star destroyer contains more Turbolasers and Ion cannons (60 each). One last thing, a SD is 1.6 Killometers long, which is about a mile.

The games aren't canon. In fact, the games are so low canon that even WEG material is higher then they are. Also, those are sensor domes. No other ship has dome shaped shield emitters, plus the shields would have already had to be down for the fighters to attack them. If it was literally that easy, the Battle of Endor should have been a cakewalk for the Rebels, "just pick off the towers with a single turbolaser each!"

Ah, finally, some sense. 40K has planet killers in every fleet, not just two large, over-compensating demolition spheres. Also, Abaddon's Planet-Killer: Frags a planet in one shot. More maneuverable than the Death Star. In BFG, shoots a line across the table, everything on that line pretty much DIES. This thing would just shoot the DS and pop the generators.

And don't tell me that a 200 ft. torpedo wouldn't go through the shields. Fighters made it fine, and they aren't much smaller! And we all know that impenetrable shields are god-modding of the worst kind, and thus non-existant. Hell, even DemonLordEnigma only has shields rated up to 60 teratons! Who want's to do the math on how much boom a 200 ft long super-fusion bomb has?

SW shields are typically hull hugging, although they can be extended further from the hull. Anyway, the guns on an Acclamator assault transport were rated at 200 gigatons, and that's an outdated starship by the time the Empire rolls around. In the novels, two ISDs beat on each other for about half an hour before the shields on one failed. That's a lot of firepower and even better shields. There is no "shield at 90%, 80%, 70%" crap like ST has, it's either it overcomes it immediately or it doesn't, so it pretty much comes down to straining the generators.

Yes, and do you recall why the Vong were able to decimate the Republic? For a few reasons: The Republic had just been fighting a long and exhausting war with the Imperial Remnants, as well as the fact that the Rebublic was so political that they couldn't get their heads out of their proverbial asses to see the threat before it was too late. The Vong agent in the NR (I'll be assed if I can remember his name) explicitly stated that if the Empire was still strong, the Vong would have been crushed like the bugs they are.

What's more important is that the Vong had the weapons yields necessary to hurt the Republic ships with a reasonable degree of ease. Something which most of the 40k powers don't have. Now 40k weapons are able to damage Wars shields, but it's going to take a few of them. It isn't like trek where it would take hundreds of photon torpedos to even dent Imperial shields. :)

My point is that the Wars weapons yields and shield strength will more than make up the difference in numbers compared to the hive fleets. And the vast imperial production abilities will erase the number disadvantage quickly against all but the largest hive fleets. Remember, you're talking about a power that built over 60% or a 900 kilometer battlestation in six months on at the earliest and six years at the absolute latest. That 900 kilometer battlestation that has a volume of billions of star destroyers.


*applauds*

Thank you for putting it so nicely. And it really is 6 months. Prince Xizor was shipping the raw materials to Endor for the Empire in Shadows of the Empire.

That also means that the Empire was also refining the raw materials, building all the components and constructing the DS2 at the construction site, in secret in 6 months.

And speaking of planetary shields. The rebels base at Hoth had a theatre shield that could withstand ANY bombardment from an Imperial fleet containing the Executor thereby forcing the ground assault. Now remember that the Rebels are a terrorist organization, and they had a shield that could deflect any bombardment. The planetary shield on Alderann was so strong it actually delayed the Death Star's super laser blast for a split second.

It'd be hard for the Space Marines to land if they can't even get past the shield.

I will settle this discussion once and for all, and I will do so by first stating my credentials, then analysing/summarising each of the “universes” in turn, then comparing and contrasting the various military strengths and weaknesses.

I am an officer in the Australian Army. I have been so for four years. I hold a degree in history, majoring in military history. It is my passion, as well as my job. I have been mentioned in despatches for application of small unit tactics. I have lead men (and one woman) under fire. I like guns, both small and long. I read and watch sci-fi. Far too often to be healthy, but there you go. I have played Warhammer 40k for some time. I have a more than passing knowledge of the principles behind the major weapons systems of all three genres, both in physical and metaphysical terms. Hate to blow my own horn like that, but I just want to clear up any discrepancies before we begin.

The question is enormously broad in scope. Are we talking about a “universe vs universe” engagement, wherein all combatant races put aside their animosities and defend their pet galaxy? Or are we comparing and contrasting factions from within the universes? I am going to take the more realistic approach, and do the latter, but to avoid disgruntlement I will analyse as many major factions as I can think of, starting with the central factions of each genre. Not necessarily the most militarily potent factions, but those upon which the backgrounds and storylines ebb and flow.

The Star Trek universe, brainchild of Gene Roddenberry, is, at least as far as the major protagonist is concerned, very benevolent, although not quite so benevolent as the Federation’s citizens would like to believe. The major faction as far as the literature and tv series are concerned is United Federation of Planets, who, until recently, were neither united, nor really a federation, and not really possessed of many planets. The Federation exists on principles of freedom, independence, mutual security and benevolent non-intervention. It is, by virtue of its relatively near future timescale, the society most analogous to contemporary western civilisation. Its primary militant arm is Starfleet, a space-going collection of vessels modelled on the navy of the United States. The UFP comprises approximately 150 planets, bound by VOLUNTARY union. The Federation is governed by the Federation Council, which is made up of representatives from each member planet. It is headquartered at San Francisco, Terra. Presiding over the Federation Council is an elected Federation Council President, who makes his office at Paris, Terra. Each member world is entitled to retain its own form of government, its own military, and its own intelligence agencies. The planet Vulcan, for example, is governed by the Vulcan Council and a group of titled ministers, possesses a small interstellar navy, and has an internal intelligence agency known as the V'Shar. Law within in the Federation is regulated by the Uniform Code of Justice.

Starfleet, in its capacity as the primary means of force projection for the Federation, is the next subject of discussion. Starfleet is a means of diplomacy, exploration and defence, and by and large serves the Federation’s needs in all three departments quite satisfactorily. Federation vessels, by and large, are slightly more combat capable than their mass equivalent non-Federation counterparts. Vessels vary from a few remaining Excelsior Class ships to the cutting edge Akira and Sovereign class ships… the first purpose built warships the Federation has fielded. Primary weapons, at present (post Dominion War) are type XII phaser arrays, and quantum/metaphasic torpedoes.

The Warhammer 40,000 universe is one of two crowning achievements in the pantheon of intellectual property owned by Games Workshop, and is an exceptionally dark take on the far future. The Imperium is nominally a gargantuan theocratic dictatorship, which operates more as a confederated feudal oligarchy in practice. It is, without a question, the “human empire”, and is composed of quite literally millions of worlds throughout the galaxy. It is brutal, repressive, xenophobic, expansionist, narrow-minded, careless, regressive in technology, and, perhaps most distinctively, incredibly violent. Human life is held as simultaneously sacred and yet intrinsically disposable, should the disposal thereof be in keeping with “the Emperor’s will”. The Emperor, a being of phenomenal psychic powers, created the Imperium through force of arms, and expanded its boundaries into space in the “Great Crusade”, prior to the rebellion of his most trusted commander and the terrible civil war that followed. He was mortally wounded in that conflict, and remains alive to this day by virtue of a potent life-support system, the “Golden Throne”. To quote the reference material, to be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. The Emperor is the “master of mankind”, and lord of the Imperium by “the might of his inexhaustible armies”. Make no mistake, the Imperium is not a pleasant place to live. Imperial military forces are divided, for the most part, into four major arms, by size. The Imperial Guard, in essence is the Imperial Army, and is a truly mammoth fighting force, comprising of so many men that the logistics department, the “Departmento Munitorum” has only a very vague idea of how many men it fields. Even this very vague calculation is subject to variation of up to millions per day, as casualties in the Imperium’s constant wars are invariably astronomical, and recruitment to compensate, usually by draft, is similarly enormous, with the Imperial population base being so mind-numbingly vast to enable compensation. The second arm of the Imperium’s defence is the oft-mentioned Space Marines. Space Marines are the 41st Millenium’s equivalent of Special Forces. They are physically altered by means of training, gene-conditioning and plain old surgery. Two hearts, three lungs, literally solid bone structure, neural interfacing, bionics, the list goes on. They operate in independent armies called “chapters”, which control their own planets, fleets, populations and manufacturing processes. They do not fall under the jurisdiction or control of the Imperial Administratum, but are wholly independent, owing their allegiance solely to the Emperor himself. Conflict between space marine chapters, imperial worlds, inquisition forces, and each other, are not unusual. The third major combatant arm are militant units of the Adeptus Mechanicus, the “tech-priests” of the Imperium. The Adeptus Mechanicus is responsible for production and maintenance of technology, and has become as much, if not more, religion that science. Techno-arcana, if you will. But it works. Entire systems of “Forge Worlds” are dedicated to the production of the war machines and weapons that keep the Imperium fighting, and the Adeptus Mechanicus fields its own military units to defend its possessions, and to assist Imperial Units off-world. Most prominent of these are the so-called “Titan Legions”, which field bipedal sky-scraper sized war machines, aptly called Titans (who’d have figured *chuckle*).

The last arm, and a point that will be of great note, is also that which holds the Imperium together, and that is the Imperial Navy (hereafter IN-I, Imperial Navy-Imperium, as distinct from IN-E, Imperial Navy-Empire). The IN-I is huge. Physically and numerically. A direct descendent of contemporary navies, it operates as such, with major fleet bases throughout the Imperium. Individual vessels are many kilometres long, with the largest, the Emperor Class Battleships, measuring 70km from top of the bow to the end of the warp-drive flux boom. Primary weapons are laser-batteries and plasma lances.

The Star Wars Universe’s primary contender is the Empire, under Senator/Emperor Palpatine. Admittedly not the contemporary, but the most appropriate entity for this consideration. The Empire is an Empire in the true sense of the word. Soldiers (with a terrible sense of camouflage), known generically as “Stormtroopers” double as police, and the word of the Emperor is law. The seat of the Imperial Government is Coruscant, an approximate analog to a futuristic Earth, and Coruscant is also the centre of Galactic commerce and culture, in addition to the military seat of power. By and large, the power that controls Coruscant is said to control the political entity that is the Empire/Republic. Despite the absolute control exercised by the Emperor, he cannot physically make all the required decisions, and a very normal form of delegation runs down the line. By and large, planetary governors rule their worlds, of which there are several hundred thousand, as they see fit, with minimal oversight and interference. Worlds are hugely varied, both in species and in culture and while humans make up the single most prolific and widespread species, they are by no means alone, nor even in the majority. Wookies are solely one example of the myriad of races that feature in this universe, and fairly prominently. Selonians, the Ssi-Ruuk, Ewoks, Sand People… there are a great many that form the population of the Empire.

Imperial power is projected through two arms, the Army, and the Navy (IN-E). The Imperial Army is composed of Stormtroopers, who form the bread and butter of any offensive, with extensive support from medium/heavy armour, embodied in the infamous AT-ST and AT-AT walkers, and battledroids. They are numerous, and well-supported, and usually work in conjunction with the Imperial Navy. The IN-E is the basis by which the Empire, as an interstellar entity, exists, and is a very large organisation. Ships range in size from the single man TIE (Twin Ion Engine) Fighters through the Imperial Class Star Destroyers to the 11.5 mile Executor type Super-Star Destroyers. Please note that “Star Destroyer” doesn’t actually mean that the vessel is equivalent to a conventional destroyer in its place on the fleet order of battle. Thousands of turbolaser batteries riddle the sides of this class of ship, and provide a huge combat capacity relative to anything else in its space. Primary weapons are lasers and laser-based weaponry, such as turbolasers.

Now, for the part you’ve all been waiting for… the analysis….

How to do this… I will compare the three major protagonists, and then will bring in other factions in contrast to the selected “winner”. From there, I invite anyone who has questions, comments, queries or death threats to bring up any points that they feel I have no addressed satisfactorily (or at all, my knowledge isn’t perfect by any stretch).

The Federation loses out to either of the two other powers, and in very short order. If we allow for the potency of a Federation warships’ weapons to exceed a IN-E vessel’s in keeping with the size ratios (applying the logic that an IN-E Star Destroyer has hundreds of turbolasers, whereas an equivalent sized Federation ship may have a couple of dozen phaser arrays at most, ergo, the Federation weapon output must be much higher per weapon), then we, in essence allow for approximate ship to ship equality. Counting then, on the surprisingly high mobilisation evidenced by the Dominion War, and the remarkable ability of the Federation shipyards, such as Utopia Planetia, to keep their fleets maintained, the Federation looks quite good. Until the number of planets is factored in… remember seeing the Senate Chamber in Episode 1? Each indentation in the wall represents a planet…. That’s about a couple of thousand planets... and we only saw a fraction of the Senate chamber. The Federation has 150. Sorry, Captain Picard, Admiral Janeway. In conflict with the Empire, the Federation would, in essence, find itself overrun. Quickly. And, with such a decisive victory in space, the Federation would cease to exist as a viable entity. The Empire wouldn’t even have to land troops.

The Empire and Imperium would present a far more interesting war. If only for the scales involved. Space would be, once more, where most battles were decided. Let us be certain of certain facets of the engagement, and of the powers in question, before we begin this analysis. Fact 1: The Imperium is bigger than the Empire. The Empire numbers several hundred thousand worlds. Or at least, the Galactic Republic upon which it was based did. The Imperium numbers several million. Fact 2. The Imperium is capable of far more unified action, at much shorter notice, than is the Empire. The central controls of the Imperium are far more established than those of the Empire, descended as it was from the highly decentralised Old Republic.

Feel free to have a poke at that, if you wish. But, let us reflect upon the Imperium’s actions upon discovery of the advance of Hive Fleets Leviathan and Kraken. The High Lords of Terra determined that the threat warranted mobilisation of the Imperium’s resources. So they did. It may have taken 3 years to wind up into full swing, but the Empire itself is flatly incapable of such action. Forge Worlds of the Imperium churn out hundreds of vessels a month, each, at maximum output. And with IN-I vessels being what they are, that’s a notable contribution to the war effort. Imperial citizens (WH40k) don’t live on nice, pretty, well-landscaped worlds like Naboo, by and large. Coruscant, as a planet-city, is an exception in the Empire. Necromunda, a “Hive World” roughly equivalent in concept to Coruscant, is no exception at all. Other Hive Worlds include Mordia, Cadia, Ichar IV, V and VI, Armaggeddon, Rigel, Ulantis, and so on and so forth. Trillions upon trillions of people live on those worlds, crammed in like sardines in a way that neither the Federation nor the Empire would accept (strange as that sounds, in the latter case). Forge Worlds like Mars, Cereth Amphor and Triplex Phall are easily the match of facilities like the sun forge. Maybe not one for one… but the Forge Worlds are not unusual in the Imperium, and the sun forge is VERY unique. The Imperium can generate ships, and the crews to man them, far faster than can the Empire. And the ships, themselves, are substantially larger and more potent in their combat capabilities than those of the Empire.

Someone asked to calculate the damage of a “200ft long Super-fusion weapon”. Leaving aside the poor dimensions stated, I’m going to illustrate the point he was trying to make.

An IN-I Hellfire missile is an orbital bombardment weapon. Rated as “high yield”. It is 22 metres long, four metres wide, and 4 metres tall, and cylindrical as in most missile weapons. The leading 15 metres is the entry vehicle, which has 16 separate warhead buses. Each warhead bus carries 8 dispersal pods, and each of those carries a further 80 sub-munitions. Each of those sub-munitions has a 160 gigaton rated yield.

16x8x80x160
1638400 gigatons
1638.4 teratons.


That’s MORE than the “uber shields” we have had quoted on these forums earlier. For obvious reasons, we couldn’t RP the use of Hellfire missiles. They would be god-modding almost as much as the Q would be. But their existence should be factored into the question from an academic point of view. While I am using a planet-killing weapon as an example, admittedly out of appropriate context, it serves to illustrate the sheer amount of firepower available to the IN-I. The presence of fleet is the only security guarantee the Imperium has. There are no other powers to negotiate with. With the exception of the Eldar and Tau, all other factions are uniformly hostile to the Imperium, and will neither give nor seek quarter. Tyranids don’t even understand the concept. The only reason for the Imperium’s continued existence is that power. If any other race or “state” in the galaxy, barring the Eldar or Tau, with whom the Imperium has been known to engage in diplomacy on limited occasions, then humanity would be wiped out. With THAT fact in mind, I will, perhaps slightly unfairly, discount other WH40k races as contenders in power to the Imperium. I’m not talking about future strength. The true strength of the Tyranids remains unknown, and Chaos is ever-shifting in its powers. The Necrons and C’tan remain mysterious, but are uniformly mysterious on the fringes of Imperial power. Never where the full might of an IN-I Segmentum (state) level battlefleet can be mustered (as happened at Macragge, during the first Tyrannic War, generating the defeat of Hive Fleet Behemoth).

Shifting away from space for the purposes of completeness, I will now contrast the power of the armies of the Imperium and the Empire. More so than in space, I believe there is no contest. The peak of SW Imperial Army prowess is the 4-legged”Ultra-Heavy” walker vehicle, seen only in one image in the movies, and, by calculation is of greater than 40m in height. It mounts two main guns under the chin, pointing laterally and down, and is estimated to be able to transport battalion sized formations of men, possibly with medium equipment load-out. Indeed, it may even be able to carry smaller walkers, such as the AT-STs of Episode VI fame. By contrast, a Warlord Titan of the Adeptus Mechanicus is 170 metres tall, and can mount volcano cannons on its shoulders that are, themselves, as long as the “Ultra Heavy” is high. Further, the Imperium does have larger titans than the Warlord, if one wishes to add insult to injury. These titans have, like the Ultra-Heavy is hypothesised to, warship grade shields. Note again, however, the difference in size between “warships” in the two genres.

In infantry stakes, Space Marines held aside for a moment as the special forces they are, SW and WH40k infantry are very comparable, both in training, equipment, and effectiveness. Which isn’t very. WH40k infantry appear to make more use of heavy weapons, but that’s neither here nor there. The primary difference, here, is numerical. The Imperium happily uses literally billions of Imperial Guard infantry on a single planet. When the armies are this large, it becomes no real wonder that the supply ships that support them are several dozen kilometres long themselves. Imperium use of indirect fire artillery (which, trust me, is something that you really, really, REALLY don’t want to be on the receiving end of) on a massive scale, super-heavy tanks (Baneblade, Shadowsword) and orbital bombardment (something not seen in SW) further tilts the firepower equation.

Then of course, the Jedi. Who are, more or less, the SW equivalent of trained psykers. Using the “force”, manipulating things from a distance, augmenting physical prowess, reaction time acceleration, near-term precognition… all sounds like a WH40k psyker to me. Approximately analogous to primaris psykers, I’d wager, in actual psychic/force potential. And nothing before a team of Grey Knights or a Lord Inquisitor of the Ordo Malleus. Time has caught up with me, but I will continue my analysis tomorrow, with the next major contender… the Borg…

I am an officer in the Australian Army. I have been so for four years. I hold a degree in history, majoring in military history. It is my passion, as well as my job. I have been mentioned in despatches for application of small unit tactics. I have lead men (and one woman) under fire. I like guns, both small and long. I read and watch sci-fi. Far too often to be healthy, but there you go. I have played Warhammer 40k for some time. I have a more than passing knowledge of the principles behind the major weapons systems of all three genres, both in physical and metaphysical terms. Hate to blow my own horn like that, but I just want to clear up any discrepancies before we begin.

Meaningless appeal to authority ignored. Your qualifications, which may or may not be true, are irrelevant. What matters is your argument. Remember that.

The Star Trek universe, brainchild of Gene Roddenberry, .... Primary weapons are lasers and laser-based weaponry, such as turbolasers.

Socio-political background information irrelevant to discussion on military power ignored.

The Federation loses out to either of the two other powers, and in very short order. If we allow for the potency of a Federation warships’ weapons to exceed a IN-E vessel’s in keeping with the size ratios (applying the logic that an IN-E Star Destroyer has hundreds of turbolasers, whereas an equivalent sized Federation ship may have a couple of dozen phaser arrays at most, ergo, the Federation weapon output must be much higher per weapon), then we, in essence allow for approximate ship to ship equality. Counting then, on the surprisingly high mobilisation evidenced by the Dominion War, and the remarkable ability of the Federation shipyards, such as Utopia Planetia, to keep their fleets maintained, the Federation looks quite good. Until the number of planets is factored in… remember seeing the Senate Chamber in Episode 1? Each indentation in the wall represents a planet…. That’s about a couple of thousand planets... and we only saw a fraction of the Senate chamber. The Federation has 150. Sorry, Captain Picard, Admiral Janeway. In conflict with the Empire, the Federation would, in essence, find itself overrun. Quickly. And, with such a decisive victory in space, the Federation would cease to exist as a viable entity. The Empire wouldn’t even have to land troops.

Agreed. The Federation would be hopelessly crushed by either the Galactic Empire(GE) or Imperium of Man(IoM). However if you see the bolded text this is false reasoning. Canonicly Fed weapon yields are in the mid-megaton range, with a Quantum torp weighing in at around 128 megatons. This is pitifully weak compared to both the GE and the IoM.

Also the Federation's industrial capacity is poor compared to the IoM's or the GE's.

Fact 1: The Imperium is bigger than the Empire. The Empire numbers several hundred thousand worlds. Or at least, the Galactic Republic upon which it was based did. The Imperium numbers several million

Flat out wrong. The GE comprises of at least 1 million member worlds with the actual number being around 12 million. Each one of theses world's is outnumbered by barren worlds which are used for resources to support the inhabitted worlds.

They don't call it the Galactic Empire for nothing.

Fact 2. The Imperium is capable of far more unified action, at much shorter notice, than is the Empire. The central controls of the Imperium are far more established than those of the Empire, descended as it was from the highly decentralised Old Republic.

The Galactic/Imperial Senate was dissolved by the Emperor in ANH. This gave the Emperor complete control over the GE, which combined the phenomenly fast Holonet communication relay of the Empire and the slightly slower, if you call 50 million times light-speed slow, hyperdrive of Imperial starships gives the GE a very good reaction time to foreign threats.

Please note that “Star Destroyer” doesn’t actually mean that the vessel is equivalent to a conventional destroyer in its place on the fleet order of battle. Thousands of turbolaser batteries riddle the sides of this class of ship, and provide a huge combat capacity relative to anything else in its space. Primary weapons are lasers and laser-based weaponry, such as turbolasers.

ISD's are mid-sized vessels in the GE's Imperial Navy. In the IN-E as you call it, they perform the same roles as destroyers. You don't have to like it, but that's the truth.

Feel free to have a poke at that, if you wish. But, let us reflect upon the Imperium’s actions upon discovery of the advance of Hive Fleets Leviathan and Kraken. The High Lords of Terra determined that the threat warranted mobilisation of the Imperium’s resources. So they did. It may have taken 3 years to wind up into full swing, but the Empire itself is flatly incapable of such action. Forge Worlds of the Imperium churn out hundreds of vessels a month, each, at maximum output. And with IN-I vessels being what they are, that’s a notable contribution to the war effort. Imperial citizens (WH40k) don’t live on nice, pretty, well-landscaped worlds like Naboo, by and large. Coruscant, as a planet-city, is an exception in the Empire. Necromunda, a “Hive World” roughly equivalent in concept to Coruscant, is no exception at all. Other Hive Worlds include Mordia, Cadia, Ichar IV, V and VI, Armaggeddon, Rigel, Ulantis, and so on and so forth. Trillions upon trillions of people live on those worlds, crammed in like sardines in a way that neither the Federation nor the Empire would accept (strange as that sounds, in the latter case). Forge Worlds like Mars, Cereth Amphor and Triplex Phall are easily the match of facilities like the sun forge. Maybe not one for one… but the Forge Worlds are not unusual in the Imperium, and the sun forge is VERY unique. The Imperium can generate ships, and the crews to man them, far faster than can the Empire. And the ships, themselves, are substantially larger and more potent in their combat capabilities than those of the Empire.

For starters, Coruscant is used as a yard stick for a desired development by non-coreworlds. Coruscant is hardly unique.

Second the GE has "Forge Worlds". Ever heard of Kuat, Fondor, which employs billions of people making ships, Balmorra, Bilbringi, Telti?

But the most impressive is the construction of the DS2. It was 60% completed in 6 months. Using a scale of 10%/ month, which looks to be correct, it would have been completed in under a year. Now the DS2 is a 900km diameter battle station with a volume of 3.8x10^17 m^3, which is equivlent 4.2 billion ISD's.

And the GE built the DS2 in secret, at a remote loaction without permament construction facilites. The raw materials, you know metals and ores, were shipped to Endor by the Black Sun, a criminal organization, and were refined, made into compenents and constructed by mobile construction devices.

And you say the IoM has a vastly superiour industrial base? I don't think so.

An IN-I Hellfire missile is an orbital bombardment weapon. Rated as “high yield”. It is 22 metres long, four metres wide, and 4 metres tall, and cylindrical as in most missile weapons. The leading 15 metres is the entry vehicle, which has 16 separate warhead buses. Each warhead bus carries 8 dispersal pods, and each of those carries a further 80 sub-munitions. Each of those sub-munitions has a 160 gigaton rated yield.

16x8x80x160
1638400 gigatons
1638.4 teratons.

To compare each heavy turret on the Acclamator-class Troop Transport has a yield of 200-gigatons. An Acclamator has 12 heavy turrets. The standard rate of firing is about once per 2 seconds. And if we assume a 1 minute broadside, it amounts to

12x200x30 = 72 000 gigatons = 72 teratons

While that is much less than the Hellfire missile it is worth considering that this is the canon heavy weapon yield of a troop transport.

For example each ISD, the GE has about 25 000 of them, is capable of turning a planet's surface to molten slag in an hour. The conservative estimate on the energy requirement for this is 2.2x10^24 J, 523.8 teratons. That is a conservative estimate based on only a 1 meter melt depth. Since a BDZ requires the extermination and destruction of all mines,farms and fisheries and so on it would take much more energy than that.

www.stardestroyer.net/Empire[/url]]These added concerns are not trivial, nor is the difference between killing most or all of a planet's inhabitants. The energy requirement for destroying the fisheries alone can easily exceed the baseline by orders of magnitude! For example, given an Earth-like planet, one might hope to destroy all edible sea life by boiling the top 100 metre thick layer of the oceans (which is over-conservative; edible sea life is found at depths much greater than 100 metres). However, the specific heat of water is 4180 J/kgK, and its latent heat of evapouration is roughly 2.5 MJ/kg, so it takes roughly 2.8 MJ to boil 1 kg of water from room temperature. If 70% of an Earth-like planet is covered with ocean, there are roughly 350 million square kilometres of ocean surface, so a 100 metre thick layer would be 35 million cubic kilometres of water. There are roughly 1E12 kg of water in one cubic kilometre, so it would take roughly 1E26 J to boil off enough water to exterminate all the fisheries. If we wanted to achieve total extermination of all edible sea life (thus fully meeting the BDZ criteria), we would probably want to kill everything down to 1000 metres depth rather than 100 metres, thus increase the energy requirement again, to 1E27 J.

1x10^27 J is equal to 238,095 teratons. The Empire has the IoM beat on the firepower end I'm afraid.

Shifting away from space for the purposes of completeness, I will now contrast the power of the armies of the Imperium and the Empire. More so than in space, I believe there is no contest. The peak of SW Imperial Army prowess is the 4-legged”Ultra-Heavy” walker vehicle, seen only in one image in the movies, and, by calculation is of greater than 40m in height. It mounts two main guns under the chin, pointing laterally and down, and is estimated to be able to transport battalion sized formations of men, possibly with medium equipment load-out. Indeed, it may even be able to carry smaller walkers, such as the AT-STs of Episode VI fame. By contrast, a Warlord Titan of the Adeptus Mechanicus is 170 metres tall, and can mount volcano cannons on its shoulders that are, themselves, as long as the “Ultra Heavy” is high. Further, the Imperium does have larger titans than the Warlord, if one wishes to add insult to injury. These titans have, like the Ultra-Heavy is hypothesised to, warship grade shields. Note again, however, the difference in size between “warships” in the two genres.

We're all agreed that the IoM would win on ground. Even though the GE's SD-10 and X-1 War Droids would make the win costly.

In conclusion, the GE wins the war thanks to it's complete dominance in space, although it will lose it's ground battles to the IoM.

Stardestroyers act like destroyers? Simply not true. They perform missions in the canon universe similarly to heavy cruisers or battleships. While larger vesses exist (eclipse class, super stardestroyers) they are an extreme rarity and can be compared to Doujin class vessels in Nationstates. If you can come up with a dedicated warship, not a battlestation, that's not an aberation like Eclipse and Executor, and is still more powerful than an Imperial class Stardestroyer, I'll be impressed. It needs to be pre-battle of endor, and a line of battleship.

Because they can't do the same job with a standard vessel? While a Star Destroyer can slag a planet's surface in an hour, it can't do that if the target has a shield, like Alderaan. The Death Star is the only SW weapon available that can punch through strong planetary shields with expediency.So use, uh, a few dozen of them?

Where's the proof that the Star Destroyers can't do this? Besides, the death star is more than just a big planet destroying superweapon, it's a symbol of the Empire's immense resources and the Emperor's small penis.Where's the proof that I can't blow up a planet with my very thoughts? Your argument is invalid, since evidence that something may not be impossible is no evidence at all. I agree with the emperors small penis, though...

Very good. Why haven't they annhilated all the other factions yet? Further, what are the requirements of this ability, do they need preexisting gates, special fuel, et cetera?According to Ctanni, who posted on the first page in this thread, they aren't interested in crushing the other factions. The necrons, being the C'tan's slaves, are supposed to bring 'em food, that is, sapients (Or rather, sapient souls). Apparently, for them, it isn't war. It's culling. As for the latter, I would interpret the (codex) quote as 'generally capable', although I will freely admit that I don't know for sure.

Trillions of soldiers who can simply be piled onto Marines until the Space Marines are literally crushed beneath them.Annoyingly, there are the couple trillion Imperial Guardsmen?

Anyway, as for the APC, let me tell you that the AT-ST certainly isn't an APC. It carried two people, it's more of a hummer/Light Recon Vehicle than an APC. The APCs are the AT-ATs, the ones which the stone-age teddy bears couldn't take out. The ones that the rebels had trouble taking out with artillery.I was actually referring to size/ armour capacity, not so much to the tactical role. And the rebels had trouble taking them out, while being able to crash them with ropes. Again, I'm not impressed.

Stardestroyers act like destroyers? Simply not true. They perform missions in the canon universe similarly to heavy cruisers or battleships. While larger vesses exist (eclipse class, super stardestroyers) they are an extreme rarity and can be compared to Doujin class vessels in Nationstates. If you can come up with a dedicated warship, not a battlestation, that's not an aberation like Eclipse and Executor, and is still more powerful than an Imperial class Stardestroyer, I'll be impressed. It needs to be pre-battle of endor, and a line of battleship.


It is the Imperator-class not Imperial-class. And according the SW canon, they are mid-sized vessels. Larger ships existed before them in the Old Republic.

And why do you think that the small sample of ships seen in the films represent the the entire spectrum of the Empire's shipyard designs? That's an absurd and completely groundless assumption.

All the loactions seen in the films with the exception of Alderaan, which is in the Core, are in the Outer Rim. There are no serious military threats in the Outer Rim Territories and destroyers are all that is needed to keep those systems in line. The only time you ever see anything larger is when Darth Vader shows up with his personal command ship the Executor. The Empire's heavy guns are in the Core worlds protecting important planets, not patrolling the ass-end of space.

And in the case of Alderaan you didn't see any huge Imperial Fleet because the Death Star is more than equivalent to any fleet. "More firepower than half the Imperial Starfleet." That ring any bells?

As for your request, try Dr. Saxton's Star Wars Technical Commentaries. I'll even provide the link.
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/warships.html

So use, uh, a few dozen of them?

To quote Han, "It would take more than a thousand warhsips with more firepower than I've ever seen." Or "...has more firepower than half the Imperial Starfleet." SW planetary shields are so powerful they can actualy delay a full power Death Star blast for a split second. That's why the Death Star was built.

Where's the proof that I can't blow up a planet with my very thoughts? Your argument is invalid, since evidence that something may not be impossible is no evidence at all. I agree with the emperors small penis, though...

Sincce this is all traces back to a post about BDZ's, I am forced to say they are canon. A single ISD can turn the entire surface of a planet into molten slag. Now prove you can blow up a blanet with your mind, since the burden of proof is on you.

I was actually referring to size/ armour capacity, not so much to the tactical role. And the rebels had trouble taking them out, while being able to crash them with ropes. Again, I'm not impressed.

How often are the Imperials going to be facing a terrorist organization who's atmospheric fighters are converted freight haulers with tow cables?

AT-ATs are not that powerful. AT-ATs are easily killed by X-wing lasers. The only reason they couldn't kill them on Hoth is because Snowspeeders (converted freight-haulers) had pathetic laser cannons (refered to by Luke as 'blasters', which are much weaker than lasers- blaster pistol, anyone?)

Oh the comment about ISD firepower being higher: That was one Hellfire torpedo. Who wants to bet that most ships carry more than 1? Hell, from playing BFG, I can guarantee that ships carry more than 1! Also, lance blasts, laser cannons, etc. are also used in a planet-killing capacity. There is no doubt in my mind that a single Imperium of Man ship could slag a planet in an hour or less using its guns alone.

And no one has responded to the Blackstone Fortresses or Abaddon's Planet-Killer yet. Since they're the equivalent of the Death Star, I think it would be nice to mention them.

Oh, and anybody want to guess what an assassin would do to Jedi? The type with the psyker-killing bit. Culexus, I think...

Xessmithia, that site is not canon.

"Please note the following carefully:

This web site is neither affiliated with nor endorsed by Lucasfilm Ltd.
Access to this web site is free and public. I am not making any money out of this service, and the project does in fact cost me a great amount of time and effort.
Intellectual property of Lucasfilm Ltd. is used at this site under Fair Usage terms. Therefore the Lucasfilm copyrights are undiminished and unaltered. These terms also protect incorporation of copyright material for the purposes of (non-commercial) commentary, criticism, scholarly analysis and education. It is my belief that STAR WARS is as worthy and suitable for serious study as other important literature and art.
All the remaining contents, which aren't taken from copyright works of Lucasfilm, are (©) copyright Dr Curtis Saxton 1998 or otherwise copyright Dr Curtis Saxton in the year indicated on the particular document"

What is canon is the Battle of Endor, where the largest imperial vessels are star destroyers. Considering that was the cream of the imperial fleet, that says something. What is canon are the Timothy Zahn, Michael Stackpole, and Aaron Alston books, all which say 'Imperial class' and have star destroyers performing missions that a heavy cruiser or a battleship would do in WWII.

As for the Necrons: I don't know enough about them, but let me ask this: If they're as uber as you claim in ship-ship combat, why haven't the few who have awoken completely destroyed the Imperium fleet? Or the Eldar? Or whoever? Because what you're telling me is that even with a few ships awake, they should utterly dominate everything else in space.

Right. Here's why the necrons haven't eliminated the likes of the Imperium. It's petty. Beneath them. The necron ships aren't warships. The only necron warship we've seen is in the beginning of the novel Nightbringer, and it took the combined fleet of every sentient race remaining in the galaxy to defeat it and they didn't destroy it. They don't view humans and the like as anything more than cattle, or playthings.

We are less than cattle to theise beings, chattel to be cast aside, consumed or made sport with for their pleasure. There is not one am9ongst them that would pay heed to a world of Man as I would to an ant on my boot."
- Inquisitor Kessel at the Conclave of Eidolon
The C'tan are energy vampires who savour the unique essence of sentient creatures. As such, they do not regard their attacks on the Imperium as warfare but as a harvest of lesser beings. Their approach is threfore idiosyncratic...

They haven't won the war, because, to them, there is no war. They haven't exterminated the other races because, to quote Star Trek's Spock: 'To hunt a species to extinction is not logical.'

Finally: SW loses on the ground, I think that's a given.

I wouldn't go that far.

Oh yeah, before I forget: The Empire has signifigantly more industrial capacity than most of 40k. They were able to build two gigantic battlestations secretly in only a few years. Nobody in 40k AFAIK has ever demonstrated industrial capacity even close to that.

Well, the necrons are busy doing something involving a Dyson Sphere, but IMO they're simply repairing an old one, not building a new one.

Further, what are the requirements of this ability, do they need preexisting gates, special fuel, et cetera?

No. It's unlikely they even require fuel, the only source on necron power generation is: The Necrons possess an extremely advanced technology and the aim was to represent this in the miniatures. We wanted to portray the feeling that the Necrons were possessed machines, powered on a sub-atomic level by the energy of the universe itself.

The necrons also posess the ability to manufacture portals which can move troops and materiel across the galaxy, but their ships do not use these. This is their standard Faster Than Light drive.

Xessmithia, that site is not canon.

"Please note the following carefully:

This web site is neither affiliated with nor endorsed by Lucasfilm Ltd.
Access to this web site is free and public. I am not making any money out of this service, and the project does in fact cost me a great amount of time and effort.
Intellectual property of Lucasfilm Ltd. is used at this site under Fair Usage terms. Therefore the Lucasfilm copyrights are undiminished and unaltered. These terms also protect incorporation of copyright material for the purposes of (non-commercial) commentary, criticism, scholarly analysis and education. It is my belief that STAR WARS is as worthy and suitable for serious study as other important literature and art.
All the remaining contents, which aren't taken from copyright works of Lucasfilm, are (©) copyright Dr Curtis Saxton 1998 or otherwise copyright Dr Curtis Saxton in the year indicated on the particular document"

What is canon is the Battle of Endor, where the largest imperial vessels are star destroyers. Considering that was the cream of the imperial fleet, that says something. What is canon are the Timothy Zahn, Michael Stackpole, and Aaron Alston books, all which say 'Imperial class' and have star destroyers performing missions that a heavy cruiser or a battleship would do in WWII.

Please note the following carefully. I know Dr. Saxton's site isn't canon. But what all of his arguments are based on is.

The Battle of Endor was designed as a trap by the Emperor. He wanted to lure the Rebel fleet out of hiding so he could destroy it with the fully functional Death Star. The fleet was there to keep the Rebel fleet from escaping the Death Star, not to destroy the Rebels. As such the fleet arrangement of 1 Executor-class Command Ship, 1 Communications Battlecruiser(mentioned in the RoTJ novelization, the second level of canon beneath the film) and 20 Imperator-class "Star" (which likely refers to it being in the STARfleet) fast destroyers makes sense. As the faster and smaller destroyers could outrun and block the escape of Rebel ships until the Death Star could destroy them with its superlaser or own vast amount of heavy turbolasers.


Oh the comment about ISD firepower being higher: That was one Hellfire torpedo. Who wants to bet that most ships carry more than 1? Hell, from playing BFG, I can guarantee that ships carry more than 1! Also, lance blasts, laser cannons, etc. are also used in a planet-killing capacity. There is no doubt in my mind that a single Imperium of Man ship could slag a planet in an hour or less using its guns alone.

And no one has responded to the Blackstone Fortresses or Abaddon's Planet-Killer yet. Since they're the equivalent of the Death Star, I think it would be nice to mention them.

Provide some numbers to back up your claims. Like do ships carry the required 146 Hellfire missiles to match the 1x10^27 J energy requirement for a all purposes met BDZ? And how many ships in a fleet carry Hellfire missiles?
Remember that each Imperator-class Star Destroyer is capable of perforing a BDZ.

This translates, in the case of an ISD-1 which has 12 heavy Turbolasers and 120 light Turbolasers, to

(1x10^27/1800) = 12(125x) + 120x

Where (1x10^27/1800) is the energy per salvo, 1 shot per 2 seconds for an hour, "x" is the yield per light turbolaser and "125x" is the heavy turbolaser yield based that it is a proportional increases in yield to the size of the weapon, which is am unsubstantiated but reasonable assumption.

Once solved we get,
x = 3.42x10^20 J = 81.6 gigatons
125x = 4.28x10^22 J = 10.2 teratons

A single ISD broadside releases ~20 teratons of energy. AN ISD could out power a Hellfire in under 20 seconds. And they're designed to take punishment from weapon fire of the same magnitude as another ISD for quite some time. So yeah, I'd say the GE has the edge on firepower.

As for the planet-killers, that very well may be true but if they have the same destructive power of the Death Star they'd be planet destroyers, not planet killers. An ISD is a planet-killer.

Without consideration for the quote 'planet killers' end quote, Warhammer 40k, which I have a large Space Marine army of(in the process of), would rip Star Wars and Star Trek a new one and then turn their insides out. Nothing in either of the 'Stars' can match the ferocity of 40k.

On Hellfires: Yes, they probably do carry more than a hundred Hellfires. They're all AT LEAST a kilometer long, so storage shouldn't be a problem. Note that they also easily dwarf an ISD, it being only 1.6 klicks.

On weapon yield: Canon ISDs have 60 turbolasers, 60 ion cannons. Besides a wing of 72 TIEs (massacred by the Imperial equivalent, a Thunderhawk) and some tractor beams, that's the entire armament of an Imperial Star Destroyer.

On the Planet-Killer: Semantics. As a standard Imperium ship can easily glass a planet, it stands to reason that the Planet-Killer, at way over 10K long, can most likely annihilate a planet. Blackstone Fortresses (aka Instruments of Vaul) can take out a star, so a planet wouldn't be too much of a challenge. Hell, one of them killed one of the planets in the Cadian Gate.

New Point: 40K Void Shields: I don't know enough about how they work, so I can't comment on them. Could someone who knows please give details on how they work, and approximate strength? Need this before going into specs on how well they'll take hits from an ISD.

Warhammer 40k would cream anything.
I actually play this game, and have armies of the following
Chaos Space Marines
Space Marines (Black Templar)
Tau
Tyranids

The Planet Killer of Abaddon the Despoiler does indeed destroy a planet targeted, however, with nothing like the raw power or ferocity of the Death Star.

*Snip*

Thanks for that information. I see that most of my assumptions about Necrons were wrong.

On Hellfires: Yes, they probably do carry more than a hundred Hellfires. They're all AT LEAST a kilometer long, so storage shouldn't be a problem. Note that they also easily dwarf an ISD, it being only 1.6 klicks.

On weapon yield: Canon ISDs have 60 turbolasers, 60 ion cannons. Besides a wing of 72 TIEs (massacred by the Imperial equivalent, a Thunderhawk) and some tractor beams, that's the entire armament of an Imperial Star Destroyer.

On the Planet-Killer: Semantics. As a standard Imperium ship can easily glass a planet, it stands to reason that the Planet-Killer, at way over 10K long, can most likely annihilate a planet. Blackstone Fortresses (aka Instruments of Vaul) can take out a star, so a planet wouldn't be too much of a challenge. Hell, one of them killed one of the planets in the Cadian Gate.

New Point: 40K Void Shields: I don't know enough about how they work, so I can't comment on them. Could someone who knows please give details on how they work, and approximate strength? Need this before going into specs on how well they'll take hits from an ISD.

On Hellfires: How many does an imperial ship fire in a single salvo? Surely they aren't stupid enough to launch all their torpedos at once, are they?

In addition, Star Destroyers have some pretty good ECM mentioned in the Novelizations, IIRC. Enough to spoof the comparatively primitive 40k torpedos perhaps?

On weapons yield: Where are you getting this canon from? The essiential guides to vehicles and vessels? Because, that's lower on the canon ladder than the ICS.

Have imperium vessels shown the ability to glass a planet as fast as a star destroyer without using an exterminatus type weapon? Not assumed based on what you precieve their capabilities to be, but actually using their weapons to wipe a planet clean of life from orbit?

On the planet killers: I was under the impression that blackstone fortresses and planet killers were based on 'lost' tech and weren't buildable any more?

The Blackstones, yes. They cannot be built anymore. Hell, no one knows who built them!

The Planet-Killer, no. In fact, it's a relatively new ship. Just recently entered the fray (recently in 40K terms, mind you). Abaddon could probably build more.

On Hellfires: Yes, they probably do carry more than a hundred Hellfires. They're all AT LEAST a kilometer long, so storage shouldn't be a problem. Note that they also easily dwarf an ISD, it being only 1.6 klicks.

On weapon yield: Canon ISDs have 60 turbolasers, 60 ion cannons. Besides a wing of 72 TIEs (massacred by the Imperial equivalent, a Thunderhawk) and some tractor beams, that's the entire armament of an Imperial Star Destroyer.

On the Planet-Killer: Semantics. As a standard Imperium ship can easily glass a planet, it stands to reason that the Planet-Killer, at way over 10K long, can most likely annihilate a planet. Blackstone Fortresses (aka Instruments of Vaul) can take out a star, so a planet wouldn't be too much of a challenge. Hell, one of them killed one of the planets in the Cadian Gate.

New Point: 40K Void Shields: I don't know enough about how they work, so I can't comment on them. Could someone who knows please give details on how they work, and approximate strength? Need this before going into specs on how well they'll take hits from an ISD.

1: As I've mentioned many times before, the ISD is not an exceptional vessel in the Star Wars universe or the Galactic Empire. They are destroyers, fast mid-sized warships. Please see my previously posted link to Dr. Saxton's page on the warships, taken from SW cannon, of the Galactic Empire for details.

2: That is false information gotten from the Essential Guide, which is not cannon and is full of flaws such as the 8 km Executor. The ICS books and the film models give the numbers I used for the ISD-1 sub-class. And referenced from the RoTJ novel Imperial TIE fighters energy output is equivalent to thermonuclear weapons, which were barely noticed by the Mon Cal cruisers.

3: The standard GE ship can slag a planet. The Empire built two giant battlestations capable of not just destroying but vapourizing planets. The second of which was 60% complete in only six months and was 900km in diameter. That is a HUGE display of industrial might, and it wasn't a difficult task for the Empire to do either. There are numerous literal star destroyers in SW as well, namely teh Sun Crusher and Centerpoint Station. The latter of which was activated by a rebellion of Corellians so the GE would have no problem using it and could also move planets through hyperspace. Then there's the Galaxy Gun which is a variable yield missile launcher capable of destroying planets anywhere in the galaxy from one easily defended position.

4: Planetary shields of SW are so strong the only way to take them down is with a planet destroying superlaser. It's hard to compare with shields like that.

I'd like to make a few comments on what I've read:

First, it is fact that the spheres on either side of the bridge of an ISD are in fact the shield generators, as can be seen in RotJ, when they are destroyed (on a SSD) and immediately afterward a random officer says "We've lost our bridge deflector shields." It is made quite clear in the movie that those are the sheild generators.

Second, the Executor class would not be uncommon. Han says to Chewbacca, again in RotJ, "There's a lot of command ships out there." Clearly refering to the SSD which they were approaching, not to mention that it is called a command ship by numerous other characters throughout the film.

I would also like to note that there are two types of StarDestroyers, the earlier, smaller Victory Class at around 900m and the larger Imperial Class, the aforementioned 1.6km. And let's remember that there are, as mentioned in one of the books (I can't remember which, probably a lot of them but I'm thinking of one in particular), standard production vehicles that easily outperform ISDs, though they are not Imperial ships. I have to say that the ISD functions as a battleship, not a destroyer.

And while nobody here has said it, I've heard this befoer and I want to correct it: Stormtroopers are not clones. The Clone Army are clones. Stormtroopers are just people who were recruited or volunteered. And while we're on the subject, Stormtrooper armor is supposedly resistant to projectile weapons. Let's remember that when they're not facing main characters or at a key plot point (like when they were boarding the blockade runner at the begining of Star Wars as opposed to their many other appearances), they are the best ass kickers in the Galaxy, both in training and equipment. A lot of the rebels were ex-Empire, so they knew their tactics and had the same level of training, which can explain a lot. The only flaw in the Empire's ground forces according to canon is that Lucas did them a great sdisservice by having them be defeated by Ewoks. Tough it can be assumed that there was an element of supise and numerical advantage, as well as confusion from guarding the rebels, gettng shot at by the rebels, protecting the shield generator, and trying to kill the ewoks, all while not comitting friendly fire.

A mark against the Empire is that while the Death Star destroyed Alderaan easily, (blew it apart, not vaporized, hence the appeacance of an asteroid field) Alderaan was an unarmed planet. The rebel planetary defence gun, an ion cannon, was able to deisable a StarDestroyer pretty easily. And that was a single gun, that was probably not a particularily effective one at that, as it was a Rebel weapon.

Another problem that I have with the ships in SW, though this is personal preference, is that the bridges are overly exposed. Any sensible person would put them in the most protected part of the craft. You don't need wiondows to the outside, CCTV would be quite satisfactory if for some reason you waned to look outside. There really sin't much to see.

First, it is fact that the spheres on either side of the bridge of an ISD are in fact the shield generators, as can be seen in RotJ, when they are destroyed (on a SSD) and immediately afterward a random officer says "We've lost our bridge deflector shields." It is made quite clear in the movie that those are the sheild generators.

How would starfighters be able to destroy a sheild generator with the shields raised? Computer games aren't a good source of reference you know.

And why would KDY be so stupid as to put the sheild generators in a place so open to attack? Wouldn't it make more sense for objects with a great barely unobstructed line of sight to be, oh I don't know, sensor globes?

And that is in fact what the spheres are. They are sensor globes, the myth that they're shield generators is almost as bad as the Executor being only 8 km long. They were destroyed because the bridge shields had failed due to heavy concentrated rebel capital ship bombardment. Not because the domes were shield generators.

Second, the Executor class would not be uncommon. Han says to Chewbacca, again in RotJ, "There's a lot of command ships out there." Clearly refering to the SSD which they were approaching, not to mention that it is called a command ship by numerous other characters throughout the film.

The massive Executor-class is uncommon. However command ships, which would simply be the largest vessel in the fleet, would be common. That is what Han is refering to, not the Executor-class.

I would also like to note that there are two types of StarDestroyers, the earlier, smaller Victory Class at around 900m and the larger Imperial Class, the aforementioned 1.6km. And let's remember that there are, as mentioned in one of the books (I can't remember which, probably a lot of them but I'm thinking of one in particular), standard production vehicles that easily outperform ISDs, though they are not Imperial ships. I have to say that the ISD functions as a battleship, not a destroyer.

The Victory-class is an old design on the low end of the destroyer range. The ISD is actually the Imperator-class Star Destroyer which has 3 distinct sub-classes in the films. And yes they are a destroyer.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/warships.html

I am referring to the actions in the film, which , in context, wuold suggest that those are shield generators. I could check the official novelization, (the one the Lucas helped write) but I would have to go and find it on the bookshelf, then flip through it for an exact reference... I'll get it for you tomorow.

And yuor website seems pretty heretical to me.

Actually, one main problem with your calculation of tonnage: The Millenium Falcon takes several hits from turbolasers in the movie. I'm rather sure that a small, freighter-scale shield couldn't take teratons of damage. You just don't sell them that big to civilians!

We're all agreed that the IoM would win on ground. Even though the GE's SD-10 and X-1 War Droids would make the win costly.

In conclusion, the GE wins the war thanks to it's complete dominance in space, although it will lose it's ground battles to the IoM.

Thats before you take all the other races in the Imperium into account. The ravening hordes of Tyranids, Necrontia and Orkz would also make mincemeat of these War Droids. And the Eldar have been known to form alliances with the imperium in the face of a greater foe, so you can just go and engineer them into the equation, with their super-fast grav-tanks and the most powerful psykers in the game. Jedi? Ha! moving stuff a few metres is nothing compared to the full fury of Eldar Farseers and warlocks, and Space Marine Librarian Codiciers.

Anyway, would these all-powerful Jedi be able to repel an artillery shell or fifty? I think not.

Oh, and I'd like to see a few of these stepping on stormtroopers:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/hphant5store.jpg

Yes, those things in the corner are Tau, man-size creatures. Frankly, if they are that stupid, they deserve to be stepped on.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/titan3store1.jpg

A mars-pattern warhound titan. Comparable in size to the Hierophant (above) This is the kind of thing that steps on AT-STs for a hobby.

Sincce this is all traces back to a post about BDZ's, I am forced to say they are canon. A single ISD can turn the entire surface of a planet into molten slag. Now prove you can blow up a blanet with your mind, since the burden of proof is on you.A post != canon. Show me footage. A screenshot. Perhaps even a novel. Not were it is claimed (Star Trek 'canon' claims the Defiant is able to slag the entire planet the founders are living on before the couple dozen Jem'Hadar ships present can destroy the Defiant, but given the firepower usually displayed in Star Trek, I'm inclined not to view Garak's unproven comment as 'canon', neither am I willing to accept unproven Star Wars claims as canon), but where it happens.

How often are the Imperials going to be facing a terrorist organization who's atmospheric fighters are converted freight haulers with tow cables?Apparently, often enough. Incidentally, this raises an interesting point.

The rebels have a fleet. Sure, this fleet is not able to defeat the combined forces of the Imperium (In a conventional way), but still, they have it. That is, they need to maintain it, they need to build more (Sure, It can be argued, and I would agree, that most of their warships happen to be ex- republic vessels, but still, maintenance, support, slow increase etc. need some resources), they need to hide them.

As such, I contest the claim that the Imperium is actually controlling a galaxy. Sure, they control parts of it, but this control... lacks, given the rebel ability to field friggin fleets, to build fighters and entire, planetary bases.

And as such, the claim that the Imperium can use the resources of an entire galaxy is somewhat... Wrong.

As I've mentioned many times before, the ISD is not an exceptional vessel in the Star Wars universe or the Galactic Empire. They are destroyers, fast mid-sized warships. Please see my previously posted link to Dr. Saxton's page on the warships, taken from SW cannon, of the Galactic Empire for details.What are the bigger ones, apart fromt he (Few) SSD's and the (fewer) Deatstars? If they aren't seen they sorta... Don't exist? (Mind you, it would make tactical sense. Personally, i'm fairly certain that Spacedy 'Battleships' are kinda useless, since a cruiser can do their job with ease, due to Material Engineering issues and the types of weapons used.)

The ICS books and the film models give the numbers I used for the ISD-1 sub-class. And referenced from the RoTJ novel Imperial TIE fighters energy output is equivalent to thermonuclear weapons, which were barely noticed by the Mon Cal cruisers.Unfortunately, Canon (Battle of Hoth) does decidedly disagree. I'm unable to remember if there were actual TIEs participating, but what we did see were AT-AT's participating. Bigger, and as such, we can assume vastly higher energy outputs, yes? Now, personally, I didn't see the ice melting... Indeed, I seem to recall their guns doing what lasers actually do, that is, melting tiny holes, resulting in terminal damage. Something you need yields in the megajoule range for. Ok, Megajoule/ square centimeter. And more if you're using second- long pulses... But still.

I strongly suggest using actual evidence, rather than the numberwank of authors who failed basic physics.

Oh, and Re: Storm Troopers. I seem to recall Episode 2 mentioning a million soldiers, and a galaxy trembling in fear, or something like that. I'm sorry, but if a million men are capable of doing that, Star Wars looks decidedly... Weak. Heck, according to this, NATO (The IRL one) would have a good chance against the empire, on the ground...

Oh, and finally, a point re: Star Trek.

1. The Federation seems to be able to massively increase its industrial output, when necessary.

The first intrusion of Borg on Federation territory saw a dozen or something Federation ships being ready to defend earth. Now, a few years later, the Dominion is discovered, and becomes a threat.

Within a few years, the Federation boosted its industrial output to field hundreds of vessels in single battles, that is, thousands to tens of thousands of ships over the whole front. Not to mention reserves.

As such, I think we can assume that the Federation's industrial capacities, with regards to combat capable vessels, can be increased rapidly, should a constant, and significant threat show up.

2. The Federation uses different, but not inferior technology. Oh, certainly, the Federation's yields, when it comes to conventional weapons, seem to be inferior. Orbital bombardement capacity would make modern nuclear capable nations laugh with amusement.

Yet, I don't think either Star Wank or Wankhammer are used to frequent timetravel, manipulation of history, Manipulation of universal constants and god knows what. Yes, the Federation would most likely lose every kind of conventional, direct combat. And? They could just do their easy to do, and constantly happening time travel, manipulate history, a little, and bang. Oh, and casuality issues aren't issues, given that Mankinds technological advancements are based on technology given to it from the future, as evidenced in that two Voyager episodes... Whatstheirname?

3. Federation Ground Warfare. Admittedly, the Federation has some problems, with fielding barely trained semi- soldiers. And then there is frequently raised issue about its unextant heavy equipment. Amusingly enough, Ever noticed how their Phasers of D00m (tm) vaporise friggin rocks (Don't ask me why they don't always do it with people, or buildings. I suspect problems with power output, or whatever, But given canon, I think we can assume that they would do it in, uh... 50% of all occasions.)? 'Tis is exactly what would happen to heavy equipment. AT ST? Gone. Landraider? Gone.

As such, while I do realise that the Federation has no concept of tactical soundness, and while I do realise that their not-exactly-trained soldiers of sorts aren't a good idea... they aren't necessarily insta- deat.

3. Federation Ground Warfare. Admittedly, the Federation has some problems, with fielding barely trained semi- soldiers. And then there is frequently raised issue about its unextant heavy equipment. Amusingly enough, Ever noticed how their Phasers of D00m (tm) vaporise friggin rocks or buildings (Don#t ask me why they don't always do it with people, or buildings. I suspect problems with power output, or whatever, But given canon, I think we can assume that they would do it in, uh... 50% of all occasions.)? 'Tis is exactly what would happen to heavy equipment. AT ST? Gone. Landraider? Gone.


These would be the same phasers that can be stopped by packing crates in short range gun-battles as seen dozens of times?

These would be the same phasers that can be stopped by packing crates in short range gun-battles as seen dozens of times?

There's their answer then. Use their indestructible packing crates as weapons. Stick one in a torpedo tube, it'll be like lobbing a chunk of DU at people. Orbital crate bombardment! And if I were them, I'd strap some around their ships too, for protection.

This is an argument that has been raging for millennia... well, a few years, on the internet, anyway. There are websites dedicated to the Star Trek v Star Wars argument, for crying out loud. It is a question that cannot be answered due to incompatibilities and bias.
I think if you're going to do an RP with these three, you should leave the tech-wanking and suchlike outside. Weapon yields and power output levels of TIE fighters rarely make for interesting stories anyway...

Don't phasers have different settings and don't those gun battles often take place on board ships where it would be kind of a bad thing to burn a hole through the wall?

Don't phasers have different settings and don't those gun battles often take place on board ships where it would be kind of a bad thing to burn a hole through the wall?

Since when is a packing crate as thick as a wall, particularly the wall of a warship?

The Star Wars planetary shields can be punctured (not entirely brought down) by concentrated fire. An SSD can punch through Coruscant's (the capital!) shields with relative ease. And if you don't have an SSD, then use 30 ISDs. It may take slightly longer, but the result will be the same.

And Star Trek is weak. It has to be the most inconsistant thing I have ever seen. Phaser vaporises huge rock, phaser bounces harmlessly off much smaller rock ten seconds later. Come on.
That's like a rifle round blowing up a tank, then a second round bouncing off some guy's unprotected hand.

Since when is a packing crate as thick as a wall, particularly the wall of a warship?

Since Star Trek? :p

The Star Wars planetary shields can be punctured (not entirely brought down) by concentrated fire. An SSD can punch through Coruscant's (the capital!) shields with relative ease. And if you don't have an SSD, then use 30 ISDs. It may take slightly longer, but the result will be the same.

So how come that guy in ESD said this?

My Lord, the fleet has moved out of lightspeed. Com Scan has detected an energy field protecting an area of the sixth planet of the Hoth System. The field is strong enough to deflect any bombardment.

Coruscant must have pretty cheesy shields then.

Besides a wing of 72 TIEs (massacred by the Imperial equivalent, a Thunderhawk)

That heavy-ass 20-odd man whale with a shell-firing battleship gun is a FIGHTER?

And Star Trek is weak. It has to be the most inconsistant thing I have ever seen. Phaser vaporises huge rock, phaser bounces harmlessly off much smaller rock ten seconds later. Come on.
That's like a rifle round blowing up a tank, then a second round bouncing off some guy's unprotected hand.Well, we (GMC & me) came to an agreement that while the question who is more advanced cannot really be answered, ST most certainly has the worst writers...

Star Trek has a whole bunch of different writers, which is probably the reason that there is so much inconsistency.

If it's a cool story, who really cares who has better stuff anyway?

If it's a cool story, who really cares who has better stuff anyway?

Wankers?

Star Trek has a whole bunch of different writers, which is probably the reason that there is so much inconsistency.

If it's a cool story, who really cares who has better stuff anyway?

Teh nerdz! :p ;)

Actually, one main problem with your calculation of tonnage: The Millenium Falcon takes several hits from turbolasers in the movie. I'm rather sure that a small, freighter-scale shield couldn't take teratons of damage. You just don't sell them that big to civilians!

The pursuing ISD wasn't shooting the Falcon with heavy turbolasers. It was shooting it with light or medium turbolasers. And much evidence points to turbolasers being able to adjust their yields. Do you really think a Galactic Empire would be too stupid to figure a dimmer switch for their weapon yields?

Thats before you take all the other races in the Imperium into account. The ravening hordes of Tyranids, Necrontia and Orkz would also make mincemeat of these War Droids. And the Eldar have been known to form alliances with the imperium in the face of a greater foe, so you can just go and engineer them into the equation, with their super-fast grav-tanks and the most powerful psykers in the game. Jedi? Ha! moving stuff a few metres is nothing compared to the full fury of Eldar Farseers and warlocks, and Space Marine Librarian Codiciers.

Anyway, would these all-powerful Jedi be able to repel an artillery shell or fifty? I think not.

I have yet to bring Jedi into my arguments for the GE. And I never will bring Jedi into my arguments because it involves unfair magic powers.

And yes I know the Empire gets slaughtered on the ground by WH40K. You can stop telling me now.

He left off the Squats! [edits initial post]

Damn Titan-cuddling modern 40Kers who've never seen the GLORY of a Cyclops turning one into slag with a single shot, void shields and all...

A post != canon. Show me footage. A screenshot. Perhaps even a novel. Not were it is claimed (Star Trek 'canon' claims the Defiant is able to slag the entire planet the founders are living on before the couple dozen Jem'Hadar ships present can destroy the Defiant, but given the firepower usually displayed in Star Trek, I'm inclined not to view Garak's unproven comment as 'canon', neither am I willing to accept unproven Star Wars claims as canon), but where it happens.

The planet Camaas had a BDZ done to it. The damage was so extensive it would be easier to teraform a new planet to Camaasi requirements rather than making Camaas inhabitable again. Reference Spectre of the Past and Vision of the Future.

In VotF Bothawui was targeted by the Imperial remnant for a BDZ but was foiled because the orbiting fleets turned on the three ISD's sent to carry out the mission. Note that the ISDs were not significantly damaged by this encounter, they retreated becuase they did not want to risk valuable ISDs.

Apparently, often enough. Incidentally, this raises an interesting point.

The rebels have a fleet. Sure, this fleet is not able to defeat the combined forces of the Imperium (In a conventional way), but still, they have it. That is, they need to maintain it, they need to build more (Sure, It can be argued, and I would agree, that most of their warships happen to be ex- republic vessels, but still, maintenance, support, slow increase etc. need some resources), they need to hide them.

The rebel fleet consists of stolen, old and black market ships in the most part. The exception of Mon Cal cruisers, which are in fact converted transports and luxury liners, are maintained by a single species.

And you seem to forget that a galaxy is a BIG place to hide a fleet. The Empire isn't omniscient.

As such, I contest the claim that the Imperium is actually controlling a galaxy. Sure, they control parts of it, but this control... lacks, given the rebel ability to field friggin fleets, to build fighters and entire, planetary bases.

And as such, the claim that the Imperium can use the resources of an entire galaxy is somewhat... Wrong.

Then I'm afriad you're mistaken. The Empire consists of at least 1 million systems reference the ANH novelization. This number is likely higher.

The Rebel fleet is a collection of old, stolen, rag-tag and converted cruiseliners for ships. The Battle of Endor saw the Rebels deploy the vast majority of their fleet while the Imperial fleet was a small collection of Outer Rim patrol squadrons. Palapatine used the Death Star as bait to draw out the Rebel fleet, and it worked wonderfully in that purpose. The Emperor and Empire made several mistakes at Endor which caused them to lose the battle. That however doesn't somehow make the Rebel fleet stronger than it really is.

And did you fail to notice your so-called "entire planetary bases" are a bunch of old decaying ruins and an ice cave? That's not exactly impressive.

What are the bigger ones, apart fromt he (Few) SSD's and the (fewer) Deatstars? If they aren't seen they sorta... Don't exist? (Mind you, it would make tactical sense. Personally, i'm fairly certain that Spacedy 'Battleships' are kinda useless, since a cruiser can do their job with ease, due to Material Engineering issues and the types of weapons used.)

Did you bother to even look at the site I linked. I don't personally have the knowledge of every ship that has ever appeared in SW. Because of this I linked you to a site where the author has spent much time examining the SW universe from canon sources. I guess I was naive to think you would actually take a few second to browse through it.

On the other hand, maybe you just missed the link. So here it is again:

www.theforce.net/swtc/warships.html

Unfortunately, Canon (Battle of Hoth) does decidedly disagree. I'm unable to remember if there were actual TIEs participating, but what we did see were AT-AT's participating. Bigger, and as such, we can assume vastly higher energy outputs, yes? Now, personally, I didn't see the ice melting... Indeed, I seem to recall their guns doing what lasers actually do, that is, melting tiny holes, resulting in terminal damage. Something you need yields in the megajoule range for. Ok, Megajoule/ square centimeter. And more if you're using second- long pulses... But still.

There were no TIE fighters participating in the Battle of Hoth. And I seem to recall there being large explosions when where AT-AT chin blaster bolts struck, not little holes in ice. How odd.

I strongly suggest using actual evidence, rather than the numberwank of authors who failed basic physics.

Of the two people I've mentioned one is an astrophysicist, Dr. Saxton. The other, Michael Wong, is a practicing professional engineer. While they're credentials don't automatically make them right. You need to look at their arguments, which I find to be overwhelmingly convicing, to do decide that. In any case, they most definately did not fail basic physics.

Oh, and Re: Storm Troopers. I seem to recall Episode 2 mentioning a million soldiers, and a galaxy trembling in fear, or something like that. I'm sorry, but if a million men are capable of doing that, Star Wars looks decidedly... Weak. Heck, according to this, NATO (The IRL one) would have a good chance against the empire, on the ground...

Episode 2 mentions a million units. Which could refer to a single soldier or a batallion. It's never stated so we don't know. As such you're argument is invalid.

Oh, and finally, a point re: Star Trek.

1. The Federation seems to be able to massively increase its industrial output, when necessary.

The first intrusion of Borg on Federation territory saw a dozen or something Federation ships being ready to defend earth. Now, a few years later, the Dominion is discovered, and becomes a threat.

Within a few years, the Federation boosted its industrial output to field hundreds of vessels in single battles, that is, thousands to tens of thousands of ships over the whole front. Not to mention reserves.

As such, I think we can assume that the Federation's industrial capacities, with regards to combat capable vessels, can be increased rapidly, should a constant, and significant threat show up.

The industrual base to even construct a single Death Star 1, let alone the ability to construct a 900km Death Star in under a year in secrecy, is orders of magnitude greater than the Federation, heck the whole Alpha quadrant maybe even the whole ST galaxy has. Even at the peak of the Dominion War. ST just doesn't measure up the Empire.

2. The Federation uses different, but not inferior technology. Oh, certainly, the Federation's yields, when it comes to conventional weapons, seem to be inferior. Orbital bombardement capacity would make modern nuclear capable nations laugh with amusement.

Yet, I don't think either Star Wank or Wankhammer are used to frequent timetravel, manipulation of history, Manipulation of universal constants and god knows what. Yes, the Federation would most likely lose every kind of conventional, direct combat. And? They could just do their easy to do, and constantly happening time travel, manipulate history, a little, and bang. Oh, and casuality issues aren't issues, given that Mankinds technological advancements are based on technology given to it from the future, as evidenced in that two Voyager episodes... Whatstheirname?

The old ST fall back. Well I can't beat you in a fair fight so we'll go back in time and kill Palpatine's mother to prevent the Empire from ever existing and mopping the floor with us.

See www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/, for Michael Wong on this topic. You can find the original on his site by going to the "Essays" page and then opening "My Favorite Trekkie Arguments"

3. Federation Ground Warfare. Admittedly, the Federation has some problems, with fielding barely trained semi- soldiers. And then there is frequently raised issue about its unextant heavy equipment. Amusingly enough, Ever noticed how their Phasers of D00m (tm) vaporise friggin rocks (Don't ask me why they don't always do it with people, or buildings. I suspect problems with power output, or whatever, But given canon, I think we can assume that they would do it in, uh... 50% of all occasions.)? 'Tis is exactly what would happen to heavy equipment. AT ST? Gone. Landraider? Gone.

The most damage we've ever seen a phaser do is demolshing a pile of loose rubble in caves. That's far from vapourizing an AT-ST isn't it?

when has warhammer 40K ever gone back in time to change something?, ive read a bit (non of the books so ya i might be wribg) the only major thing ive ever read was the awakening of the Chaos gods, and the shamans of earth crateing the emperor inturn killing themselves. oh and the cration of the Premarchs and the space marines and the fact that the Empire hasnt progressed in technolagy since the dark age a few 1000 years ago if not a few million.

Bah, SW would win. If the Sith Empire here would be the one with the Star Forge, Star Wars would be practically INVINCIBLE with its ZOMG CONSTANTLY GROWING FLEETS of ships that are practically as capable at causing devastation as Star Destroyers and whatnot are. And then you combine that with the insane capacity of the Galactic Empire... You still think WH40K would stand a chance, huh? HUH? HUUUUUUUH? And ST's phasers don't be likin' Star Wars's shields, as they don't like ST shields, either! I THINK.

And you seem to forget that a galaxy is a BIG place to hide a fleet. The Empire isn't omniscient.Does this mean that you concede re: Control over the entire galaxy? Given that places were the rebels can hide are, by definition, not under the Empire's control.

Then I'm afriad you're mistaken. The Empire consists of at least 1 million systems reference the ANH novelization. This number is likely higher.Given the 100bn+ systems the Milky Way Galaxy has... A tiny spot? Or a tiny galaxy?

The Rebel fleet is a collection of old, stolen, rag-tag and converted cruiseliners for ships.The same rebel fleet whose engineers have the necessary resources to build fighters surpassing the ones of the Empire?

There were no TIE fighters participating in the Battle of Hoth. And I seem to recall there being large explosions when where AT-AT chin blaster bolts struck, not little holes in ice. How odd.Large Explosion != thermonuclear yields. Which, given the distances involved, would destroy the AT- AT's. Amusingly enough, I saw rebels survive AT-AT hits merely dozens of meters away. Oh, and you completely forget that such explosions may be caused by rebel equipment exploding once hit. You know, kinda the same way a fuel tank may go ASPLODE! when you apply enough energy (Heat)...

Episode 2 mentions a million units. Which could refer to a single soldier or a batallion. It's never stated so we don't know. As such you're argument is invalid.Here, I actually concede. Sucky german dub <.<

The industrual base to even construct a single Death Star 1, let alone the ability to construct a 900km Death Star in under a year in secrecy, is orders of magnitude greater than the Federation, heck the whole Alpha quadrant maybe even the whole ST galaxy has. Even at the peak of the Dominion War. ST just doesn't measure up the Empire.I didn't claim it did. Please read my post carefully. All I stated was that Star Trek doesn't suck as bad as Warsies claim it does.

The old ST fall back. Well I can't beat you in a fair fight so we'll go back in time and kill Palpatine's mother to prevent the Empire from ever existing and mopping the floor with us.To bad this is ST canon, ne? And, I hate to bring this to you, but Mike Wongs constant fapping doesn#t change the point. It is posible, and as mentioned previously, the OMFG GRANDFATHER PARADOX!!!11 isn't actually present in Star Trek, as established by ST Voyager. As sucky as the series, as sucky as the authors might be, canon is canon, and arguing that $Part of Canon that can actually defeat my favourite series isn't actually canon but bullshit!!!11' simply doesn't work. Well, 'cept for warsie egos.

The most damage we've ever seen a phaser do is demolshing a pile of loose rubble in caves. That's far from vapourizing an AT-ST isn't it?Oddly enough, I've seen more. Apparently, Star Trek authors define capacities by plot necessities. Unfortunately, same argument as above: It's canon.

That heavy-ass 20-odd man whale with a shell-firing battleship gun is a FIGHTER?

Yes, the Thunderhawk is the Space Marine equivalent to a fighter. Nasty, ain't it? Of course, when the average ship is 3 km long, having a 100 meter or so fighter doesn't seem that odd.

The pursuing ISD wasn't shooting the Falcon with heavy turbolasers. It was shooting it with light or medium turbolasers. And much evidence points to turbolasers being able to adjust their yields. Do you really think a Galactic Empire would be too stupid to figure a dimmer switch for their weapon yields?
Yes. They left an exceptionally vulnerable exaust port on the first Death Star, put the Emperor's throne room above a giant pit leading to the reactor core, and regularly kill officers who make a single mistake. Why not more stupidity?

That heavy-ass 20-odd man whale with a shell-firing battleship gun is a FIGHTER?

The Imperium do fighters as well. The Thunderhawk is best compared to the Blockade runner. They do Imperial Fury Interceptors, Imperial Starhawk Bombers, and Imperial Shark Assault Boat.

Yes. They left an exceptionally vulnerable exaust port on the first Death Star, put the Emperor's throne room above a giant pit leading to the reactor core, and regularly kill officers who make a single mistake. Why not more stupidity?

Tee hee; have to admit, all that is true

Didn't Janewayx2 destroy the borg? Seven should have died along with them...taking Chakotay from the Captain! Anyway can someone explain what 40k is??

Warhammer 40K (40,000) Table top war game set in the far dark future of the 41st Millenium; where there is only war

I should note, it's a bit tricky for trekkies to travel back in time to kill the Emperor of the IoM.

Why? Because of two things:

1. There aren't any records of the Emperor's parents, birthplace, or even birthdate. Quite simply, travelling back in time to kill him/his parents/his grandparents/whatever, would be basically impossible. And if you travelled back in time to the beginning of the Imperium, when he had first started leading them (Age of Strife I believe), he would be pretty much as impossible to get near as he is now. Also, if you intended to kill anyone else apart from some random civilian on a world only incredibly loosely affilated with the Empire, you would have an Imperial Fleet on you.

2. If Time Travel is so easy for the ST universe, why aren't they doing it to every single enemy they ever meet? (Before anyone mentions the...'Temporal Directive' I think it's called, you'll note they weren't travelling back in time constantly during the Dominion Wars, not even to jump back in time, tell everyone to prepare for the War, and thus save untold millions of lives.

er....HELLO STAR WARS WAS NEVER SET IN THE MILKYWAY GALAXY, hence the intro going somthing like "in a galaxy far far away" so for all you know the galaxy shall we call Galaxy Starwars might be smaller and systems have more planets PLUS the Galatic Empire controled the KNOWN GALAXY. Its more of a misunderstanding that people think they controled the entire galaxy.


Also the Emperor i think didnt have Parents well did but didnt if ya get what i mean, also the Emperor was born in Terkey or that area and spent the first few million years wondering earth helping people, then he took over the Earth and slowly the old Imperium of Man, tho had a set back since the Chaos gods sent his premarchs into the warp spreding them across the galaxy. the only one of them 3 (ST, SW and 40K) does the IoM control a largest chunk of a Galaxy, i could drag up a map if you really wanted.

( http://www.darkmillennia.net/QuadrantMap_pages/GMap.htm map)

That isn't the entire map of course. Just some systems of note. I think it's stuff they fought over in the Eye of Terror campaign...

That isn't the entire map of course. Just some systems of note. I think it's stuff they fought over in the Eye of Terror campaign...


naa its Key areas of the Galaxy controled by each race i belive (the tau where not around when the fought over the Eye of Terror since the Tau are rather new)

Does this mean that you concede re: Control over the entire galaxy? Given that places were the rebels can hide are, by definition, not under the Empire's control.

Semantics. Even in an area you totally control, there are still places to hide. You can't patrol each and every bit of territory you have at every possible moment in time.

Given the 100bn+ systems the Milky Way Galaxy has... A tiny spot? Or a tiny galaxy?

100 billion+ systems, but how many of those are likely to have planets? Life-supporting planets? Why would the Empire count uninhabited systems that have no valuable planets as 'systems under their control?' They're probably only counting inhabited systems in that estimate.

The same rebel fleet whose engineers have the necessary resources to build fighters surpassing the ones of the Empire?

You mean the Empire's mass produced fighters that they can make for far cheaper than a rebellion fighter? Only one imperial fighter, the Tie Defender, surpasses rebellion fighters. That is because it was designed that way, and it costs accordingly. Imperial fighters up until that time have sacrificed individual quality for quantity.

Are you being obtuse on purpose?

I didn't claim it did. Please read my post carefully. All I stated was that Star Trek doesn't suck as bad as Warsies claim it does.

In the Trek universe, their industrial capability is actually pretty good. The problem comes when you compare it to the grossly superior wars industrial capability. Compared to building a 900 kilometer death star in six months secretly, just about everything in trek looks vastly inferior.

To bad this is ST canon, ne? And, I hate to bring this to you, but Mike Wongs constant fapping doesn#t change the point. It is posible, and as mentioned previously, the OMFG GRANDFATHER PARADOX!!!11 isn't actually present in Star Trek, as established by ST Voyager. As sucky as the series, as sucky as the authors might be, canon is canon, and arguing that $Part of Canon that can actually defeat my favourite series isn't actually canon but bullshit!!!11' simply doesn't work. Well, 'cept for warsie egos.

If Trek could have used time travel to their advantage, why didn't they just go back in time and wipe out the borg? Or warn the Federation about the coming Dominion war? Because...for one reason or another, they can't. Or won't. And if they won't do it to save themselves from assimilation/enslavement at the hands of the Borg or Dominion respectively, why should they do it for the Empire?

Oddly enough, I've seen more. Apparently, Star Trek authors define capacities by plot necessities. Unfortunately, same argument as above: It's canon.

Could you tell me what episodes those were in? Because I honestly can't remember anything indicating that phasers could vaporize ATSTs. Oh, there's the 14 level phaser could take down a building or whatever it was that Riker said, but that could just as easily be interpereted to be hyperbole.

You've given these broad capabilities for ST, but you haven't really mentioned specific instances where they were used, and when we have instances where they *would* have been extremely useful, we don't see them used.

Suspension of disbelief requires us to ignore such motivations as 'act of plot' so...unless you can start coughing up evidence for these super AT-ST vaporizing phasers and other stuff, Trek loses. Again.

Sorry in advance for any double posts.

In space, what would happen if the big Emp (40k Emperor) decided that he didn't like the Star Wars ships. Everyone say "instant warp rift". Not to mention the havoc that would be caused by the Tyranids. Or chaos. Or if the Imperium and Eldar truly allied, something very nasty could happen. I'm already imagining one scenario involving a Super Star Destroyer, a Callidus Assassin, a Space Marine chapter or Eldar strike force, and a webway gate.
Tau would get creamed though.

Tau would get creamed though.

Heathen!

The Tau rock, if only due to the fact that they focus entirely on making as many enemies explode at once and as loudly as possible.
And, of course, they have the Kroot to chop apart enemies in CC and then eat them...

In space, what would happen if the big Emp (40k Emperor) decided that he didn't like the Star Wars ships. Everyone say "instant warp rift". Not to mention the havoc that would be caused by the Tyranids. Or chaos. Or if the Imperium and Eldar truly allied, something very nasty could happen. I'm already imagining one scenario involving a Super Star Destroyer, a Callidus Assassin, a Space Marine chapter or Eldar strike force, and a webway gate.
Tau would get creamed though.

If the Emperor could open up instant warp rifts whenever he chose, why didn't he just suck up all the chaos ships deploying troops during the Eye of Terror campaign?

As for the rest of those, that's ground combat. We've already established that 40k beats SW on the ground. The Assassin idea is an interesting one, but I'm curious as to how he'd make it on the SSD in the first place. I mean, it's not like the SW ships will be engaging in too many ground battles or stopping at native installations to refuel/rearm...

I'm not sure about the Eye of Terror, or any Warp Rift abilities the Emperor may have (even if he is basically a living god, and pretty much the most powerful psyker there is), but if he CAN do that, i'll take a guess, and say that it might be that either the Chaos Gods simply shielded their forces, or that doing it will severely weaken him for a while afterwards. (But take quote me on this :p )

Semantics. Even in an area you totally control, there are still places to hide. You can't patrol each and every bit of territory you have at every possible moment in time.Most certainly not. Unfortunately, what we see in Star Wars is comparable to Sudan (South Sudan) IRL. The Empire needs to destroy entire fucking planets? That is not control. This will never be control. This is a friggin civil war, and while the Empire is most certainly the stronger side, it doesn't control the galaxy. Not even remotely so.

100 billion+ systems, but how many of those are likely to have planets? Life-supporting planets? Why would the Empire count uninhabited systems that have no valuable planets as 'systems under their control?' They're probably only counting inhabited systems in that estimate.Actually, good point.

You mean the Empire's mass produced fighters that they can make for far cheaper than a rebellion fighter? Only one imperial fighter, the Tie Defender, surpasses rebellion fighters. That is because it was designed that way, and it costs accordingly. Imperial fighters up until that time have sacrificed individual quality for quantity.

Are you being obtuse on purpose?You mean the mass produced shit that lost the war? Doesn't exactly support pro- Star Wank arguments. And amusingly enough, producing high quality when you're on the run is impossible. All we learn from this is that the Emperor is fucking stupid and produces fighters so bad that even rebel- produced shit can defeat them. Quite frankly, such fighters will lose against everyone else. Even against the (Really piss- poor) Federation shuttles. Which is an achivement.

Oh, and I could ask you the same.

If Trek could have used time travel to their advantage, why didn't they just go back in time and wipe out the borg? Or warn the Federation about the coming Dominion war? Because...for one reason or another, they can't. Or won't. And if they won't do it to save themselves from assimilation/enslavement at the hands of the Borg or Dominion respectively, why should they do it for the Empire?Why didn't The Emperor just build two Deatstars with his vast industrial capacities? Why didn't he fake the knowledge of the second deatstar, to lure the rebels into a trap without risking himself and the second deatstar? Why did the first deatstar have this stupid exhaust port problem?

Canon is canon, and horribly idiotic and inconsistent writers are no excuse, not until you count both sides, anyway. And doing that would mean that a neat little Federation Shuttle with Picard and Worf on Board blows up a Deatstar by way of $Plotdevice.

(Oh, and I might add that they did use time travel to save themselves from the Borg, 'tis is the point of Movie #8 :P)

Could you tell me what episodes those were in? Because I honestly can't remember anything indicating that phasers could vaporize ATSTs. Oh, there's the 14 level phaser could take down a building or whatever it was that Riker said, but that could just as easily be interpereted to be hyperbole.

You've given these broad capabilities for ST, but you haven't really mentioned specific instances where they were used, and when we have instances where they *would* have been extremely useful, we don't see them used.

Suspension of disbelief requires us to ignore such motivations as 'act of plot' so...unless you can start coughing up evidence for these super AT-ST vaporizing phasers and other stuff, Trek loses. Again.Shit, I'm actually acting on broad memory (Comes with not actually being a trekkie), and simple extensions. I will admit, this weakens my position more than just a little.

Luckily, in this particular case, there are other ways. Armour that is broken by the KE of trees crashing against the hull with reasonably low velocity (Endor, no c fracs involved, here)) is no match for a phaser. Never. Heck, it wouldn't be a match for a 9mm...

And If I'm reading a 'But KE doesn't equal energy weapons' line when I open this thread again, I'm going to cry.

Most certainly not. Unfortunately, what we see in Star Wars is comparable to Sudan (South Sudan) IRL. The Empire needs to destroy entire fucking planets? That is not control. This will never be control. This is a friggin civil war, and while the Empire is most certainly the stronger side, it doesn't control the galaxy. Not even remotely so.

Before the Death Star, the Empire had the galactic senate to forestall rebellion. The Death Star was meant to be so terrifying that nobody would ever even consider breaking away from the Empire. I always thought it was a preventative measure.


You mean the mass produced shit that lost the war? Doesn't exactly support pro- Star Wank arguments. And amusingly enough, producing high quality when you're on the run is impossible. All we learn from this is that the Emperor is fucking stupid and produces fighters so bad that even rebel- produced shit can defeat them. Quite frankly, such fighters will lose against everyone else. Even against the (Really piss- poor) Federation shuttles. Which is an achivement.

Who says that the Rebel equipment is produced on the run? I always figured that they purchased ready-made fighters from rebel sympathizers or stole them. A few missing X-wings here, some old and decommissioned Y-Wings there...

You're right about most Imperial fighters being crap. I think I recall reading something about the Imperial Admirality fearful of making decent fighters because they would cut into their capital ship funds. Eh. I don't know.

Oh, and I could ask you the same.

You could, but then I'd just explain my position and more importantly, the reasons for that position.

Why didn't The Emperor just build two Deatstars with his vast industrial capacities?

Because he wanted the Death Star to be his personal ubership. Think of it as a giant phallic compensation symbol, not a warship. If Palpatine wasn't so irrational and strategically incompetent, we probably *would* have seen more death stars.

Why didn't he fake the knowledge of the second deatstar, to lure the rebels into a trap without risking himself and the second deatstar?

Because having a fake death star isn't as symbolically signifigant as a real one. Even if he crushed the Rebellion at Endor, with the fake death star, how long would it be before a Rebellion rose again? But if you've got a real death star, people tend to think twice about joining a rebellion that would most likely get their planet destroyed.

As for why Palpy risked himself, he probably wanted to gloat over the destruction of the rebellion. In addition to turning Luke. I mean, Vader failed to turn him, so it's time for Palpatine, somebody with an enormous amount of experience at corrupting people to step in and do it himself.

Why did the first deatstar have this stupid exhaust port problem?

Eh, it was a flaw in the design. It's not like other pieces of equipment don't and the DS is a very big and complicated machine. Hell, I'm surprised it didn't have more flaws. Besides, how likely was it that the Rebellion would have a pilot who could guide a torpedo into that exhaust port like that? How would those rebellion fighters get by the thousands of tie fighters that the DS had on hand? Poor leadership by Tarkin was the direct cause of the 1st Death Star's destruction.

Only the fighters launched under Vader's direct command were used to destroy the Rebel Fighters. Which is rather telling towards Tarkin's competence, but not much else.

Canon is canon, and horribly idiotic and inconsistent writers are no excuse, not until you count both sides, anyway. And doing that would mean that a neat little Federation Shuttle with Picard and Worf on Board blows up a Deatstar by way of $Plotdevice.

Canon is canon, but can you provide the information I asked for to even show evidence that what you're talking about is canon? As for the plot device: suspension of disbelief. If the Federation Shuttle with Worf and Picard could do anything due to plot device, why didn't they just fly to the Borg Unimatrix or Dominion Homeworld and set off a bomb of plot-device boosted yield?


(Oh, and I might add that they did use time travel to save themselves from the Borg, 'tis is the point of Movie #8 :P)

Not what I meant. I mean, why didn't they go all the way back and blast the first cells that would evolve into Borg.

Shit, I'm actually acting on broad memory (Comes with not actually being a trekkie), and simple extensions. I will admit, this weakens my position more than just a little.

I'm only acting on broad memory of trek myself, supplemented with episode scripts and such from the web. It's been years I've seen Trek in any of its forms except for Enterprise.[/quote]

Luckily, in this particular case, there are other ways. Armour that is broken by the KE of trees crashing against the hull with reasonably low velocity (Endor, no c fracs involved, here)) is no match for a phaser. Never. Heck, it wouldn't be a match for a 9mm...

Yeah, trees have less velocity than bullets. But they also have a helluva lot more mass than bullets too. The mass of the two trees crashing into the AT-ST at the same time may have been what did it in. (Or are you refering to a different scene where an ATST was destroyed?)

As for the "no match for a phaser." Where is that coming from? Phasers don't use direct energy transfer. They use some kind of strange non direct force to do their damage, causing chain reactions in organic materials and other light (not dense) objects. Phasers have shown that they are considerably less effective against any sort of armor than they are against flesh. The packing crates in multitudes of DS9 episodes come to mind most prevelantly. (An area of Wong's site is dedicated to this and makes quite a bit of sense, given what we see in the shows.)

And If I'm reading a 'But KE doesn't equal energy weapons' line when I open this thread again, I'm going to cry.

Nope. You're reading a "Phasers aren't DET weapons" line. :) Of course KE equals energy weapons. It's all just different forms of energy after all. I'm just saying that phasers cause their damage through a technobabbel process that isn't really effective on dense materials as opposed to actually transfering enough energy to vaporize someone through DET.

Why didn't he fake the knowledge of the second deatstar, to lure the rebels into a trap without risking himself and the second deatstar?

Why did the first deatstar have this stupid exhaust port problem?

To answer these two (Despite the fact that i'm Pro-40K, so I should actually go against any argument that helps SW or ST at all), he didn't fake it since...well, wouldn't they notice the lack of gigantic moon of death with something as primitive as telescopes? I mean seriously....

And the first Deathstar's exhaust port wasn't considered a problem since it was expected that the rebels would attack with Capital Ships rather than fighter sized craft, thus rendering that weakness something that could be ignored.

the tau empire can change too quickly to be overwhelmed by any new force, and the death star couldn't stand up to, say, a giant railgun the size of a spare planet. and even if it could it'd only be a matter of time.

time is the greater good's greatest weapon, use it well, use it quickly.

for the greater good of the Tau empire!

Not what I meant. I mean, why didn't they go all the way back and blast the first cells that would evolve into Borg.

While I agree with the idea that ST would be shit on either 40K's or SW's shoes, I can answer this one:

It's because the Borg are billions of years outside an time travelling device's range.

But, I must say, including ST in these arguements really is unfair, they're only 500 years into space, compared to 40K's 40 thousand for the humans and several million for the more advanced races and the several hundred thousand of SW's.

Does this mean that you concede re: Control over the entire galaxy? Given that places were the rebels can hide are, by definition, not under the Empire's control.

No, it does not mean I concede that the Empire does not control the entire gakaxy. The United States controls Iraq but that doesn't mean they know where all the insurgents are. It's the same deal with the Empire and Rebels.

Given the 100bn+ systems the Milky Way Galaxy has... A tiny spot? Or a tiny galaxy?

The SW galaxy is actually larger than the Milky Way. But as CF said most of those systems are unihabited and without any valuable resources so there is no need for direct Imperial control.

If the need arises to search these systems the Empire has millions of probe droids to do that for them.

The same rebel fleet whose engineers have the necessary resources to build fighters surpassing the ones of the Empire?

The X-wing was designed and built by the Incom corperation, which is sympathetic to the Rebels. The Rebels either bought the X-Wings from Incom or were given them under the table.

And X-Wings are much more expensive than TIE fighters.


Large Explosion != thermonuclear yields. Which, given the distances involved, would destroy the AT- AT's. Amusingly enough, I saw rebels survive AT-AT hits merely dozens of meters away. Oh, and you completely forget that such explosions may be caused by rebel equipment exploding once hit. You know, kinda the same way a fuel tank may go ASPLODE! when you apply enough energy (Heat)...

The thermonuclear weapon yields were for starfighter weapons. Not those of the AT-AT. And the explosions occured even when the bolts were striking plain snow, thus indicating that it was not equipment exploding.

I didn't claim it did. Please read my post carefully. All I stated was that Star Trek doesn't suck as bad as Warsies claim it does.

When compared to SW industrial capacity Star Trek's does suck as bad as Warsies claim. But for ST it is indeed good.

To bad this is ST canon, ne? And, I hate to bring this to you, but Mike Wongs constant fapping doesn#t change the point. It is posible, and as mentioned previously, the OMFG GRANDFATHER PARADOX!!!11 isn't actually present in Star Trek, as established by ST Voyager. As sucky as the series, as sucky as the authors might be, canon is canon, and arguing that $Part of Canon that can actually defeat my favourite series isn't actually canon but bullshit!!!11' simply doesn't work. Well, 'cept for warsie egos.

I never said time travel wasn't canon. I just said it's the fallback argument for Trekkies when backed into a corner by superior firepower.

And in canon ST we've only seen time travel rarely. If it were easy it would be used far more often as you said, the Grandfather Paradox does not apparently exist.

We also only ever see time displacement's of a few hundred years. The highest I can think of is maybe 800 years for the Enterprise temprol cold war thing. Which is wholy inadequate against't SW or WH40K because they could kick ST's but even thousands of years ago.

Oddly enough, I've seen more. Apparently, Star Trek authors define capacities by plot necessities. Unfortunately, same argument as above: It's canon.

Which episode or movie? The most powerful I remember is Worf's shoulder thing which had the power of a modern day frag grenade.

Yes. They left an exceptionally vulnerable exaust port on the first Death Star, put the Emperor's throne room above a giant pit leading to the reactor core, and regularly kill officers who make a single mistake. Why not more stupidity?

Which was one design flaw which would have been inconsequential had the Death Star had a competent commander. Had Moff Tarkin ordered the Death Star's fighers to engage, only those under Darth Vader's direct command were fighting the Rebels, the Battle of Yavin would have been a complete success for the Empire.

As far as I saw the giant pit was just a giant pit, the bottom was lost in haze which means it was few km deep, but that doesn't mean it went all the way to the reactor. The blue explosion was the release of the emperor's dark side force energy.

Coming out of hyperspace to soon and alerting the rebels of the fleet's presence thus ruining the Empire's advantage of surprise and directly leading to the more costly ground invasion is not a small mistake. And from what I remember only evil and incompetent officers kill subordinates for minor mistakes.

There are other civilizations in Star Trek besides the Federation. There's the Dominion, the Romulans, the Klingons, the Kazon, the Q Continuum, the Borg, the Cardassions, et cetera.

There are other civilizations in Star Trek besides the Federation. There's the Dominion, the Romulans, the Klingons, the Kazon, the Q Continuum, the Borg, the Cardassions, et cetera.

The Romulans think a plantary invasion is 2,000 troops, the Klingons run screaming into battle with pistols and knives, the Dominion has been smacked down, the Borg are dead and even if they weren't have been so throughly neutered during Voyager as to be a non-threat, the Cardassian Union is in tatters after the Dominon War, the Kazon...Are just lame, and the Q Continuum are barely interested in what goes on in the universe [where were they during the Dominion War or the ruinous Klingon / Fed war in the alternate universe?]

It would be nice if you included Farscape universe also.
We'll get a real shitty RP with that backround.

Currently I'm watching the second season of the next generation so I'm a bit out of the ST universe. Are the borgs dead already or what?

Heathen!

The Tau rock, if only due to the fact that they focus entirely on making as many enemies explode at once and as loudly as possible.
And, of course, they have the Kroot to chop apart enemies in CC and then eat them...

You think Kroot are CC monsters? Ever heard of Orks, Tyranids, Or the CC masters of the universe, Blood Angels Space Marines. Yes, I hate Tau. The only way you can win with Tau is against a naive player and you use your infantry railguns as battlesuit railguns. And another thing: battlesuits are rubbish. They can be outgunned and out-CCed by Dreadnoughts, especially the two-weaponed Blood Angels Furiosos.

Because he wanted the Death Star to be his personal ubership. Think of it as a giant phallic compensation symbol, not a warship. If Palpatine wasn't so irrational and strategically incompetent, we probably *would* have seen more death stars.And the next few arguments, too This does, of course, work, unfortuntately, it is no different from Star Treks plot devices constantly showing it back and forth between godlikeness and spacedy third world. As such, the same standards apply, and we're back at the beginning.

Canon is canon, but can you provide the information I asked for to even show evidence that what you're talking about is canon? As for the plot device: suspension of disbelief. If the Federation Shuttle with Worf and Picard could do anything due to plot device, why didn't they just fly to the Borg Unimatrix or Dominion Homeworld and set off a bomb of plot-device boosted yield?1. Re: Phasers: No, unfortunately not. Well, not without rewatching that TNG episode featuring a couple Ferengis (Yes, I know there are quite a few of them), where I think I saw it. Re: Time Travel wank: Yes, since it is constantly seen.

2. Well, they sorta tried with the Dominion Homeworld (TWO times), but this times, plot device demanded that it didn't work. And didn't Voyager sort of had the Unimatrix Scenario? ;)

Yeah, trees have less velocity than bullets. But they also have a helluva lot more mass than bullets too. The mass of the two trees crashing into the AT-ST at the same time may have been what did it in. (Or are you refering to a different scene where an ATST was destroyed?)Actually, since KE = m*v^2... Also observe even the shittiest ww1 armour being more capable than the ATST :P Heck, I'm fairly certain knight armour from ~ 1400 A.D. manages better...

As for the "no match for a phaser." Where is that coming from? Phasers don't use direct energy transfer. They use some kind of strange non direct force to do their damage, causing chain reactions in organic materials and other light (not dense) objects. Phasers have shown that they are considerably less effective against any sort of armor than they are against flesh. The packing crates in multitudes of DS9 episodes come to mind most prevelantly. (An area of Wong's site is dedicated to this and makes quite a bit of sense, given what we see in the shows.)Partly correct. Unfortunately, I distinctly recall an occasion where the phasrs burned through such a crate, thus scaring Quark, a little. Seeing as different energy settings are frequently mentioned in ST, I would assume that they simply regulate their phaser, errr... 'Output'. So, generally speaking, yes, I wuld still assume... Well, ok, not exactly vaporisation, at least not as long as I cannot verify my previous claim, but I'm fairly certain they would turn it into swiss cheese, assuming someone non- incompetent to use them.

(Also note capship grade phasers being used against, well, capships, apparentlyx being able to deposit some sort of damaging energy into the circuits of $Target, and eventually breaking the shields, targetting the hull, directly.)

Also refers to your last (Unquoted) line, naturally.

Oh, and pleaseno Mike Wong references. I have read quite a bit of his stuff, and, I'm sorry, but... the very moment he gets into an OMFG ST SI TEH SUCKZ!!!11 rage (Especially his 'How it would really go' fan fiction critics. Ewww.), it goes down to the level of scientific Goebbels propaganda/ fapping. No, I wont elaborate any further, it is quite a bit of material I would have to cover, and I think I already made a few of the arguments as of why I'm thinking this way.

Not that I would mind, equally despising both Star Wars and Star Trek, but... I cannot really take it serious.

No, it does not mean I concede that the Empire does not control the entire gakaxy. The United States controls Iraq but that doesn't mean they know where all the insurgents are. It's the same deal with the Empire and Rebels.I would call that nominal control, which is far, far FAAAAAAAAAAAR from actual control. Not to mention that maintaining a fleet != bulding up a few tiny resistance groups with AKs.

The X-wing was designed and built by the Incom corperation, which is sympathetic to the Rebels. The Rebels either bought the X-Wings from Incom or were given them under the table.So the empire is incapable of effectively supervising, uh, not exactly small corporations, specialised corporations, despite knowing that there has to be a source for $Überequipment? 'Tis is not helping your point.

The thermonuclear weapon yields were for starfighter weapons. Not those of the AT-AT. And the explosions occured even when the bolts were striking plain snow, thus indicating that it was not equipment exploding.And I doubt them, simple as that. You see, the energy has to come from somewhere. Fast. As in, you will have the energy of a thermonuclear warhead removing your fighter as soon as it fires.

As for the latter, are you arguing that AT- AT's have smaller yields? Sounds kinda like claiming that an Apache's MG manages a higher e0 than an M1 Abrams... Sounds somewhat odd, to me.

Oh, and of course there may be explosions, once you manage to vaporise enough stuff (Grams) within a reasonable timeframe (< a second). The thing is, this explosions are comparable to grams of TNT, not megatons.

Which is pretty much what we see in the movie.

I never said time travel wasn't canon. I just said it's the fallback argument for Trekkies when backed into a corner by superior firepower.

And in canon ST we've only seen time travel rarely. If it were easy it would be used far more often as you said, the Grandfather Paradox does not apparently exist.

We also only ever see time displacement's of a few hundred years. The highest I can think of is maybe 800 years for the Enterprise temprol cold war thing. Which is wholy inadequate against't SW or WH40K because they could kick ST's but even thousands of years ago.1. Exactly as much fallback as the opposing side claiming superior firepower when they can see they can't do time travel.

2. Not as rarely as you think, given that they have an entire agency devoted to investigate offences against their temporal doctrines... And they are, apparently, busy. According to DS9, anyway (The Tribbles thing).

3. a) Could be 1. that they are ideed limited or 2. that they never needed to go back any further. No idea which one, personal preference, I guess.

b) Against Warhammer, yes. Against Star Wars? They could try to change the course of the Republic, eventually preventing the rise of the Empire.

And seeing just how divided the Republic seems to be, I doubt they would ever manage to agree on an effective course of action, were they going against Star Trek.

Ah yes... everyonce in a while we get a thread where fans of one specific sci-fi fiction want to prove their fiction is vastly superiour to others. Oh course, it always ends in some of the silliest arguements around, usually forming around the age old "Star Trek vs. Star Wars" arguement.

Well, lets face it. If we look at Star Wars and Star Trek we'll notice that both these universes, if judged by the series/films are pretty damn silly in their ideas.

Everyone knows the problems with Star Trek technology... tons of fans incist on how the technology isn't broken when clearly throughout the series and the fluff many silly things are done in what can only be describe as "Plot Devices".

They want to save their favorite officer? Fuck the rules, send the captain down to save them, nevermind that command structure demands he's on the ship where he plays the role of leader without being in harms way. Or their constant obcession with having to fly up close to other ships to be effective regardless of the likely ranges of their weapons? This is avoiding the normal questions of their technology wank, the fact their panels explode when the ship is hit (powering them with plasma and not safer electricity?) and nevermind the random sciencific discoveries made almost every episode to fit the problem at hand. Or how almost every alien species... regardless of where they are in the galaxy, is humanoid in such a manner that they may as well be humans with a new nose.

Star Trek the series is ruled by the plot device, it's a fiction designed to enterain... it's not a universe designed to compete against other universes because the rules change depending on the need of the fiction to sustain suspence for the viewers.


Star Wars on the other hand tries a little harder in some respects, but they don't answer as many of the tech issues as Star Trek tries to (given that ST has a huge fan base who incist on the technology being viable). They have thousands of different cultures and alien races which look geniunely alien... they don't mess about when it comes to limits though.

However, like Star Trek, Star Wars is ruled by the plot device because it needs to keep people interested. Rebels can and do make better fighters then the Empire does, their pilots are better trained then the empire... to be honest I don't mind these, though we remeber how storm troopers pretty much suck when it comes to shooting, flying or generally doing anything other then looking scary. The old exhaust issue on the Deathstar (why no grill or shield? Even a bend in the pipe would do it.) We also have plot device random effects helping Jar Jar survive and kill robots, and little Annie accidently getting into a space station and blowing it up... all by accident. Like Star Trek you have to ask questions about how wanky its technology is... though yeah, it's ok because it's just fiction.


However, these issues become pretty problematic when you actually compare Star Trek to Star Wars. Afterall, neither fictions were designed to meet the other, they are literally a galaxy apart, with Star Wars being in a far of universe in a totally different time and Star Trek being firmly fixed to Earths future. The fact their canon sources are heavly affected by the plot devices which make them unrealistic, yet entertaining, is what makes it almost impossible to really compare the two. Would Star Trek officers continue to be retarded despite representing some of the best Star Trek had to offer? Wouldn't Star Wars Stormtroopers actually have training which allows them to take some cover and aim once in a while?

Then we have time lines... is it honestly fair to compare a universe like ST to a universe like SW when they clearly have a difference in the power of their weapons systems, travel methods and so on.

Directly comparing them would be rather one sided... personally in this thread I would concider it to be like this:

Wankhammer 40'000 > Star Wars > Star Trek


Wankhammers source material at least builds a more obcenely powerful galaxy then all the others... their smallest ships are miles long, each essentially a space fortress. They have worlds producing nothing but weapons, and other worlds producing nothing but soldiers for those weapons. They are brutal, genocidal and xenophobic, completely constantly waring and have done so for a very long time.... many of their ships can be fitted to destroy worlds as required should the world be impossible to redeem.

Yeah, it's a hell of a lot more wanky then both Star Wars and Star Trek... though seeing as this thread is about judging canon, I would say Warhammer 40k wins hands down. All the races in Warhammer 40'000 are obcenely aggressive... the best of which being Orks, who if were inflicted on the other universes would probably mess them up themselves... hell, were it not for Orks nature of fighting among themselves when nothing else is around they could have overrun the imperium.

*shrugs*

Thats my two credits, I'm out now.

And another thing: battlesuits are rubbish. They can be outgunned and out-CCed by Dreadnoughts, especially the two-weaponed Blood Angels Furiosos.

Try imagining a Furisio dreadnought, ready to kill for the Emperor.

Then imagine the Broadside battlesuit and it's Gun drones (Assuming it isn't a SQUAD of the damn things).

Now imagine just how much firepower is going to get fired at the Furisio, and a large area around it really.

Now imagine the satisfying explosion as chunks of dreadnought fly into the air like a demented metal Barbecue. (Mmm, tasty. That 'just obliterated' taste.)

That scenario pretty much sums up the Tau. They just turn anything closer than two miles away into a crater.

You know why Warhammer 40k is called 40k? Becaue it costs ya that many if you want to play it decent.

All the races in Warhammer 40'000 are obcenely aggressive... the best of which being Orks, who if were inflicted on the other universes would probably mess them up themselves... hell, were it not for Orks nature of fighting among themselves when nothing else is around they could have overrun the imperium.

Orks are pretty good. As you said, if Orks were to band together, the Canon states that every other 40K race uniting against them would barely slow them down...

though we remeber how storm troopers pretty much suck when it comes to shooting, flying or generally doing anything other then looking scary.

I wouldn't go so far. They caned the Rebels in ESB. And I think you'd have great difficulty finding a modern soldier who would go down into a prison block, with orders to not harm Han Solo, and get himself shot while repeatedly and deliberately missing the target by about two inches. Recall that they're usually under orders to capture the main characters, not kill them. Given the apparent limitations of stun on their weapons, this requires that they miss the characters and try and run them to ground where they can be taken in.

In scenes like the escape from the Death Star or from Cloud City, they could easily have gunned the rebels down, but this would require upsetting Darth Vader.

Could mech technology such as Macross and Robotech be allowed? My ships are mainly Star Trek, but are supported by Robotech fighters and my infantry is all robotech and macross.

Try imagining a Furisio dreadnought, ready to kill for the Emperor.

Then imagine the Broadside battlesuit and it's Gun drones (Assuming it isn't a SQUAD of the damn things).

Now imagine just how much firepower is going to get fired at the Furisio, and a large area around it really.

Now imagine the satisfying explosion as chunks of dreadnought fly into the air like a demented metal Barbecue. (Mmm, tasty. That 'just obliterated' taste.)

That scenario pretty much sums up the Tau. They just turn anything closer than two miles away into a crater.

Of course, if one got anywhere near you you are dead. 3 strength 10 attacks with no armour saves and 2D6 armour piercing for vehicles can't be too good for anything the Tau throw at the Imperium. And no matter how much you throw at a Death Company Furioso, it will still keep going. Hell, you could blow its legs off and it would still crawl towards you with hatred in its eyes and claws.

Actually, I think we should take out all the movie 'plot devices' and do this argument. Star Trek...haven't seen much of it, but I'm sure even my grandma with a nailgun can give those Redshirts(front and last line of defence in all Fed ships and Fed landings) hell. In terms of space combat...Borg Cube seemed really impressive, but I think thats the strongest ship Trek could offer, and it should not require half the rag-tag Rebel fleet to destroy it.

So this leaves Star Wars and 40K. 40K...having all the factions united is pretty impossible, unless they all deem the Empire as a big threat. Individually, i guess only the Nids, Necrons and the Imperium of Man can put up a fight. You seriously don't think a few Craftworlds or Ork band can face the Empire's space fleets. Oh and leave out the Gods. If I count them in, theres no real point in doing this argument.

Providing the 40K alliance does not fight each other, the Empire will have to face the fastest, deadliest Necron ships, Imperium ships that could at least draw on Empire ships, and Nids. The Empire is pretty much screwed, even with Death Stars, cos most likely somehow the Nids are gonna show up INSIDE the death star.

But, given the state of 40K world, the most likely alliance would be Necron+Imperium VS Empire+Jedi/Sith. Why Nec+Imp? Wouldn't the Nids just eat everything, so alliance means death delayed, after the Nids devoured every world in the Empire and turn back to 40K. In space battles, Empire rules, but that doesn't mean winning. Fact-wise, its more likely the Empire's ships be boarded easily. So while the Empire ships can hold the 40K ships at bay, CC should spell death for the Empire navy crews.

This leaves to the most interesting part. Jedi/Sith VS Bolt Guns/Chain-sword/Gauss rifles/vibro-axe(stuff Grey Knights use). Pretty obvious? all i can say, is the 40K teams would have to soak up quite a lot of damage before over-running the Empire navies. Why? sheer manpower. Space Marines can sure kick Stormtrooper ass, but the whole shipload of them? Pretty intense fighting should occur between Jedi/Sith and Necron Lords/Grey Knights/Libarians. They are all great CC fighters, and SW side has one advantage, bloody speed. So the fight should be elite Western knights VS Japanese ninjas who can do 'Crouching Tiger, Hidden Tiger' stuff. Only the knights have stuff like Nemisis blade.

So to sum it all, Empire lose, but 40K universe suffers tremendously for this win.

So this leaves Star Wars and 40K. 40K...having all the factions united is pretty impossible, unless they all deem the Empire as a big threat. Individually, i guess only the Nids, Necrons and the Imperium of Man can put up a fight. You seriously don't think a few Craftworlds or Ork band can face the Empire's space fleets.

Well, all Space Marine chapters + Imperial Guard + Demon Hunters + Witch hunters + imperial navy is fair enough to start.

Eldar have been known to form alliances with the Imperium, so they are part of the strike force.

Dark Eldar like plundering stuff and torturing things, so they should have some fun with Imperial Ships full of supplies and stormtroopers. Add them to the anti-starwars league.

Tyranids are bound to notice the Empire and therefore try to eat them, as Nids are wont to do. +1 for the starwars killers.

Necrons like burning things with their Gauss guns. +1 for the starwars killers.

Tau like shooting things. + 1 for the starwars killers.

Orks like fighting things. + 1 for the starwars killers.

Chaos like summoning Daemons to fight things. +1 for the starwars killers.

So all in all, even if everyone isn't going to join the same alliance, they still all want to hurt the empire.

You know why Warhammer 40k is called 40k? Becaue it costs ya that many if you want to play it decent.

I dunno, you could probably get a reasonable army for around £250, though I do argee their whole pricing has gotten out of control in recent years, with rules being released and repaired constantly due to problems they had at with the first set of rules being broken.

In anycase the price of Warhammer stuff isn't the subject of the thread so I would suggest that you keep on topic in the future.

Recall that they're usually under orders to capture the main characters, not kill them. Given the apparent limitations of stun on their weapons, this requires that they miss the characters and try and run them to ground where they can be taken in.
Fair enough, though eitherway the point is that realistically they would be better equipped and trained for the tasks they are assigned. I was just falling back on the common sterotype of Stormtroopers that they rarely ever get anything right on film.

Actually, I think we should take out all the movie 'plot devices' and do this argument. Star Trek...haven't seen much of it, but I'm sure even my grandma with a nailgun can give those Redshirts (front and last line of defence in all Fed ships and Fed landings) hell.

If we're ignoring "Plot Devices" then the arguement that Star Trek crew are crap because of the whole red shirt thing is automatically invalid. It's a plot device designed to make all the important characters look much more competant and previde a poor bastard to take the hit from whichever human look-a-like alien they are facing today.

When you look at what Star Trek canon actually states about their Star Fleet training you will realise that unlike both Warhammer 40k and Star Wars soldiers, Star Fleet are highly educated, skilled personnel. I agree that their combat training wouldn't match that of a Storm Trooper (if we realistically assume they are proper soldiers) or a Imperial Guardsman, but they all given enough training to provide reasonable troops, and their education makes them highly adaptable. For example, in Warhammer 40k or Star Wars they require specialists of most their techincal roles, especially in 40k where technology is often more of a religion. In Star Trek most personnel at least know enough to improvise for many other roles.

Meanwhile, if we look at the weapons given to your average Star Trek security personnel their phasers are pretty obcene in the possible power levels they have. I imagine the reason Star Trek don't bother with armour is because it simply does nothing and could even make a phaser/disruptor wound worse, assuming they weren't set to "kill" in the first place. ST hand weapons are capable of destroying small buildings on their higher settings. That said, I don't know enough about Star Wars weapons to give their power levels, but I'm assuming their strong enough to kill, though they still seem to use armour, perhaps it's more useful to them, though I imagine it looks cool. In Warhammer, armour is actually useful again your average lasgun, given that the weapon is about as strong as a autogun (assult rifle) and as such Imperial Guardsmen use it. Though Boltguns are basically rocket launchers, which is why their armour is much less useful (often making the armour pointless). 40k Powerarmour may have some use again the higher power phasers I imagine, though it would more likely be that Space Marines are just hard enough to take a wound from a phaser which cuts a clean hole, unlike bullets. Terminator Armour on the other hand should be effective because hell, it's designed to take direct hits from meltaweapons too.

So I feel that while Star Trek has some things going for it, though this doesn't make them better soldiers, not by a long shot. However it does level out the playing field a little... only you have to remember that Star Trek isn't as militant as either SW or 40k, their more concentrated on research and diplomacy. I would still go with the idea thats it's 40k > Star Wars > Star Trek simply because the others have the resources and dedicated soldiers/support for such conflicts. In a situation involving all three, Star Trek would be trying too much diplomacy.

This leaves to the most interesting part. Jedi/Sith VS Bolt Guns/Chain-sword/Gauss rifles/vibro-axe(stuff Grey Knights use). Pretty obvious? all i can say, is the 40K teams would have to soak up quite a lot of damage before over-running the Empire navies. Why? sheer manpower. Space Marines can sure kick Stormtrooper ass, but the whole shipload of them? Pretty intense fighting should occur between Jedi/Sith and Necron Lords/Grey Knights/Libarians. They are all great CC fighters, and SW side has one advantage, bloody speed.

Lets be honest... 40k would soak up the damage with Guardsmen, thats what they are for. The huge ships I mentioned are designed to be able to deal with boarding attempts simply because they have fucktons of soldiers on board most the time... like I said, they are fortresses. Meanwhile, the 40k ships designed to board others are pretty insane themselves as they have tons of specially designed breaching ships which melt through hulls to drop off their own imperial guardsmen.

As for marines... you should read the Warhammer fluff (background which the game is based off) Space Marines assault entire planets on their own in small numbers simply because of the fear they inspire. They are faster then your average human, at least four times as strong (without taking the power armour bonus into account) they are tough as hell with damn good armour to hell them with weapons that fire miniture missiles with explosives in.

Jedi would pose a threat, however Marines outnumber them easily as I'm fairly sure there aren't that many Jedi/Sith in Star Wars, they are pretty rare, were as Space Marines have thousands of chapters now with around a thousand odd marines in each. Meanwhile, flamers would give Jedi/Sith a big problem, I don't remember them having powers against jets of flame and given that Terminators and Tactal squads could be equipped with flamers/heavy flamers with ease, even in space ships (breaches in the hull aren't problem for most marines when they are in Powered Armour) and its not just a matter of parrying it or dodging a coridor filled with flame. Meanwhile, bolter ammo isn't a laser... so while deflecting bolt rounds would be better then being hit by them, it doesn't change the fact you have an explosive round being hit by a beam of heat, and Jedi don't have armour.

I'll admit though, The Empire would be a hard nut to crack for the Imperium of Man, however with the obcene amount of resources (both logistical and human) that they have, it wouldn't cripple them in the long run as they can always make more.

The damage done by the tyranids could be concidered a "fair bit of damage" to the Imperium of Man. It's effected them a fair bit but ultimately the Marine chapters affected (mostly the Ultramarines) have recovered well enough.

I mean, lets face it. The Empire has destroyed a world once with a ulimate weapon as their method of scaring everyone into submission. They did it once and then lost that weapons. The Imperium of Man on the other hand destroys worlds on a daily basis when they concider it's no longer redeemable or simply isn't worth fighting for, they can accept the lose of several worlds with ease.


If I was to open it up a little though, I would imagine the Orks would come out on top of everyone. They live for combat and combat only makes them stronger. As soon as some Orks land on a ST or SW world, that world will eventually fall you can never kill them all and they are constantly dropping spores which will produce more Orks who thrive on combat.

Hell, you can cut their heads of and the head will continue to swear at you... if the Ork's head is put back on his body, it's almost as good as new. It's a race that can staple it's losts limbs back on.

So my opinion stands, 40k by a long run followed up by Star Wars and then Star Trek who get a medal for trying hard to convince both sides not to destroy their perfect society.

However... final point before I end this monster post: Given the order I've put each fiction in, you have to remember that this is also the order of the nations which claimed the most powerful things as part of their fiction. 40k is the most powerful simply because it was made the most obcenely overpowered concept of the three. Meanwhile Star Wars is more capable then Star Trek because it's designed to be a story about a Galaxy under humans control which is suffering a rebellion. Finally, Star Trek comes last because it's a fiction more focused on science, diplomacy and exploration. If they owned most of the galaxy like the others they couldn't explore as much. So inherantly this is a fixed question.

And the next few arguments, too This does, of course, work, unfortuntately, it is no different from Star Treks plot devices constantly showing it back and forth between godlikeness and spacedy third world. As such, the same standards apply, and we're back at the beginning.

Ever heard of suspension of disbelief? It's what you use when analyising sci-fi. We know that said event is a plot device, but we have to act like it's part of the universe or else we get nowhere.

1. Re: Phasers: No, unfortunately not. Well, not without rewatching that TNG episode featuring a couple Ferengis (Yes, I know there are quite a few of them), where I think I saw it. Re: Time Travel wank: Yes, since it is constantly seen.

A vague memory of an episode does not constitute evidence of massive phaser yields. As it stands, they are far from being as powerful as the non-canon Tech Manuals describe them as being. I'll deal with the Time Travel thing again later.

2. Well, they sorta tried with the Dominion Homeworld (TWO times), but this times, plot device demanded that it didn't work. And didn't Voyager sort of had the Unimatrix Scenario? ;)

Again Suspepension of Disbelief. In the universe the bombs or whatnot were supposed to work but didn't. This is indicitative of something all though I don't know what, I never really watched DS9. You can't just dismiss these events by saying they're plot devices.

Actually, since KE = m*v^2... Also observe even the shittiest ww1 armour being more capable than the ATST :P Heck, I'm fairly certain knight armour from ~ 1400 A.D. manages better...

AT-ST's are recon vehicles, not tanks. Now why don't you try a thought experiment, take one of those big lumber logs you see hauled down the highway, cut in half and attach both halves to a swing. Then raise the logs up to a comparable height to those on ROTJ, park a US Army Humvee between them, and let the logs smash into it's sides. If you think the jeep will survive you have a very warped sense of reality.

Partly correct. Unfortunately, I distinctly recall an occasion where the phasrs burned through such a crate, thus scaring Quark, a little. Seeing as different energy settings are frequently mentioned in ST, I would assume that they simply regulate their phaser, errr... 'Output'. So, generally speaking, yes, I wuld still assume... Well, ok, not exactly vaporisation, at least not as long as I cannot verify my previous claim, but I'm fairly certain they would turn it into swiss cheese, assuming someone non- incompetent to use them.

One instance where the thin-walled packing crate didn't stop a phaser blast, several hundred where they did. Obviously the exception is the instance where it did penetrate the crate. If you think otherwise you have an even more warped sense of reality than before.

Oh, and pleaseno Mike Wong references. I have read quite a bit of his stuff, and, I'm sorry, but... the very moment he gets into an OMFG ST SI TEH SUCKZ!!!11 rage (Especially his 'How it would really go' fan fiction critics. Ewww.), it goes down to the level of scientific Goebbels propaganda/ fapping. No, I wont elaborate any further, it is quite a bit of material I would have to cover, and I think I already made a few of the arguments as of why I'm thinking this way.

Fair enough that you don't like reading his opinions on Trekie fantasy fiction. However that doesn't mean his scientifically based opinions are unworthy. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's untrue.

I would call that nominal control, which is far, far FAAAAAAAAAAAR from actual control. Not to mention that maintaining a fleet != bulding up a few tiny resistance groups with AKs.

Fair enough, then let me say it's more like fugitives and homegrown cults in the US mainland avoiding detection. And you seem to forget the scale of the SW galaxy. In it a terrorist rebel organization with a rag-tag fleet is equivalent to tiny resistance groups with AK's here on Earth.

So the empire is incapable of effectively supervising, uh, not exactly small corporations, specialised corporations, despite knowing that there has to be a source for $Überequipment? 'Tis is not helping your point.

Can the US goverment stop criminals, terrorists or gangs from obtaining guns on the black market? Absolutely not, the same goes for the Empire and the Rebels. You have have no sense of reality at all if you expect a galacy spanning empire to keep track of every little detail in every single corperation.

And I doubt them, simple as that. You see, the energy has to come from somewhere. Fast. As in, you will have the energy of a thermonuclear warhead removing your fighter as soon as it fires.

Yes, that's what power generators are for dimwit.

As for the latter, are you arguing that AT- AT's have smaller yields? Sounds kinda like claiming that an Apache's MG manages a higher e0 than an M1 Abrams... Sounds somewhat odd, to me.

I'm saying AT-AT's weren't firing thermonuclear level yields to take out ground troops. What would be the point when you can conserve energy and do just a good of job using a lower yield.

It's obvious from TESB that AT-AT guns have a variable yield, when destroying the rebel shield generator the gunenr says, "Target maximum firepower." This obviously means that before then the AT-AT guns were not using their highest yield setting. The explosion caused by the impact of the blasters was large enough to be seen from 17.28 km away, "Range to target one-seven decimal two-eight." Undoubtedly you'll say the massive explosion came from the shield generator, but there were two explosions. One when the blasters hit and the other much larger one when the generator exploded. Both were visible at 17.28 km distance. That's one hell of an explosion.

Oh, and of course there may be explosions, once you manage to vaporise enough stuff (Grams) within a reasonable timeframe (< a second). The thing is, this explosions are comparable to grams of TNT, not megatons.

Yes, when the AT-AT was firing with anti-personel yields. You wouldn't use a nuke to take out a group of 3 people would you?

1. Exactly as much fallback as the opposing side claiming superior firepower when they can see they can't do time travel.

Superior firepower, superior industrial capacity and superior FTL are all primary arguments for Star Wars. The fall back argument for time travel is the fact that the Star Wars universe has had the superior firepower, industrial capacity anf FTL for thousands of years.

2. Not as rarely as you think, given that they have an entire agency devoted to investigate offences against their temporal doctrines... And they are, apparently, busy. According to DS9, anyway (The Tribbles thing).

Then why didn't the federation use time travel to save their ass from the Dominion or the Borg, I know time-travel was used in First Contact but the Borg did it not the Enterprise.

3. a) Could be 1. that they are ideed limited or 2. that they never needed to go back any further. No idea which one, personal preference, I guess.

The first possibility is far more likely. If they could have gon back thousands of years don't you think they would have done so?

b) Against Warhammer, yes. Against Star Wars? They could try to change the course of the Republic, eventually preventing the rise of the Empire.

The Republic leads itself to stagnation by it's very nature. The most the Federation could hope to do was to delay to formation of an empire. It may notbe Palpatine but it would happen.

And seeing just how divided the Republic seems to be, I doubt they would ever manage to agree on an effective course of action, were they going against Star Trek.

Star Trek would be a nuiscance to the Republic. And if ST started attacking Republic worlds they would be dealt with. Even if by seperatists.

And as for boarders from WH40K rendering the Empire's fleet useless. What makes you think boarding would even be an effective weapon?

There's no way a boarding craft could get through shields designed to stop teraton level blasts. Even if they do get throgh by moving say really slow, there's still tons of dense armor, anti-fighter weaponry and a massive contigent of Storm Troopers to deal with.

And magical teleportation is just cheap. Same with infinite hoardes of unkilliable demons and species than can staple their heads back on. That's why I hate the WH40K universe. Too much reliance on magic powers.

And as for boarders from WH40K rendering the Empire's fleet useless. What makes you think boarding would even be an effective weapon?

There's no way a boarding craft could get through shields designed to stop teraton level blasts. Even if they do get throgh by moving say really slow, there's still tons of dense armor, anti-fighter weaponry and a massive contigent of Storm Troopers to deal with.

And magical teleportation is just cheap. Same with infinite hoardes of unkilliable demons and species than can staple their heads back on. That's why I hate the WH40K universe. Too much reliance on magic powers.

For a start, there is no magic, only psychic power and chaos sorcery. And boarding is probably the most effective space-combat method the 40K universe has.

The shielding will only repel laser blasts or torpedoing. It won't repel a craft, and most hangars have hydrostatic fields around their exits, permitting spacecraft-speed solids to enter but nothing significantly faster or energy-based.

Tons of stormtroopers? Within days, the tyranids could have cleared out every living thing in the DS. Space Marine Bolters could rip the stormtroopers to shreds, slicing through their "armour" which never seems to have any effect in the movies. Whereas the wimpy E-11 blaster rifle, which sometimes doesn't even injure its targets when they have NO armour at all, would simply reflect off the space marine power armour.

Anyway, have you seen the size of the 40K ships? The biggest of them could probably reel in a ISD like in the beginning of episode IV.

We interrupt this vicious genre war to bring you a small moment of levity:

Imperium versus Empire: A Comparative Perspective

Imperium: Ruled by an Emperor encased in a massive life-support tomb.
Empire: Ruled by an Emperor encased at the bottom of the Death Star's Reactor Shaft.

TIE (No pun intended)

Imperium: Countless hordes of armored soldiers known for their ruthlessness and loyalty to the Emperor.
Empire: Countless hordes of armored soldiers known for their ruthlessness and loyalty to the Emperor. And their inability to hit the broadside of a barn.

ADVANTAGE: IMPERIUM

Imperium: Meet countless alien civilizations. And kill them. And have them kill you.
Empire: Meet countless alien civilizations. And kill them. And have them kill you.

TIE

Imperium: Vast amount of utterly ruthless methods of destroying a planet.
Empire: One ruthless method of destroying a planet... that goes down like Paris Hilton in front of a camcorder.

ADVANTAGE: IMPERIUM

So far it looks like the Imperium is leading by a margin...

Gotta have the 40K universe, if only for the amazingly totalitarian Imperium and the Orks... oh, and Necrons are damn fun too, though I'd also like to see 'Nids...

Far more fun than Star Trek, IMO. ;)

Yeah, 40k is the best

For a start, there is no magic, only psychic power and chaos sorcery.

Which, now this is the truly amazing part, equals magic! The same way the Force is magic.

And boarding is probably the most effective space-combat method the 40K universe has.

Which is really sad. If you have to baord an enemy vessel to destory it, it only means your ship board weapons are not up to the task.

The shielding will only repel laser blasts or torpedoing. It won't repel a craft, and most hangars have hydrostatic fields around their exits, permitting spacecraft-speed solids to enter but nothing significantly faster or energy-based.

Ever heard of particle-shields? Star Wars has two types of shields, Ray shields which block energy and particle shields which block matter. To launch fighters a ship must lower its particle shields around the hangar. Ergo boarding craft would be stopped by the particle shields.

Tons of stormtroopers? Within days, the tyranids could have cleared out every living thing in the DS. Space Marine Bolters could rip the stormtroopers to shreds, slicing through their "armour" which never seems to have any effect in the movies. Whereas the wimpy E-11 blaster rifle, which sometimes doesn't even injure its targets when they have NO armour at all, would simply reflect off the space marine power armour.

I said tons of dense armour and I said a massive Stormtrooper contigent. An ISD has 35,000 ground troops aboard. The Death Star over a million.

Yes, Stormtrooper armor never stops direct hits from blasters that can blow softball sized holes in a material that's at least as strong as concrete. The E-11 also happens to blow said holes in concrete. And may I remind you that in the movies the Stormtroopers are trying to capture the main characters not kill them. So they're missing them on purpose. And I only ever saw some one not die when shot by an E-11 was Leia in ROTJ when she was hit by a grazing shot to the shoulder.

Anyway, have you seen the size of the 40K ships? The biggest of them could probably reel in a ISD like in the beginning of episode IV.

The same way that the largest Imperial ships could also easly swallow an ISD.
And since the Death Stars have hyper-drive that makes them moon sized star ships. Which could easily swallow the ships that easily swallow an ISD.

Imperium: Countless hordes of armored soldiers known for their ruthlessness and loyalty to the Emperor.
Empire: Countless hordes of armored soldiers known for their ruthlessness and loyalty to the Emperor. And their inability to hit the broadside of a barn.

Again, they were trying to capture the main characters and purposely not hitting them. And may I mention that the Rebels have no "better" aim than the Stormtroopers.


Imperium: Vast amount of utterly ruthless methods of destroying a planet.
Empire: One ruthless method of destroying a planet... that goes down like Paris Hilton in front of a camcorder.

The first Death Star had one design flaw that would not have been easily exploited had the commander been competent and launched the DS's TIE squadrons. Those that launched were under the direct command of Darth Vader. How many times must this be said?

And there are more than one way to destroy a planet in SW, including the Galaxy Gun and World Devastators. Not to mention the Sun Crusher and Centerpoint Station both of which can destroy stars. Although I do consider the supernova weapons rather stupid.


So far it looks like the Imperium is leading by a margin...

I'm afraid not.

Current poll:
40k=56
SW=40
St=29
Interested=29

Interesting results.

Again, they were trying to capture the main characters and purposely not hitting them. And may I mention that the Rebels have no "better" aim than the Stormtroopers.




The first Death Star had one design flaw that would not have been easily exploited had the commander been competent and launched the DS's TIE squadrons. Those that launched were under the direct command of Darth Vader. How many times must this be said?

And there are more than one way to destroy a planet in SW, including the Galaxy Gun and World Devastators. Not to mention the Sun Crusher and Centerpoint Station both of which can destroy stars. Although I do consider the supernova weapons rather stupid.




I'm afraid not.

Actually, acording to today's poll's, 40k is winning popularity contest. According to my plans, the most popular universe will become the ultamate ruler in the RP. The battles in space will mostly be won by star wars, star trek doesn't even stand a chance (once again NO Q! LEAVE ALL Q OUT OF DEBATES ON THIS THREAD!!). No question 40k has definate ground superiority. You just can't beat the space marines to think up some brilliant military strateties, unless one of the SW people manage to clone G.A. Thrawn or Lord Revan some of the best military strategists in SW.

And as for boarders from WH40K rendering the Empire's fleet useless. What makes you think boarding would even be an effective weapon?

Boarding was just one arguement... when you directly compare 40k Ships with Star Wars ships you quickly realise that the smallest Imperium of Man ships are around a mile long. You know, the escort ships for the much larger ships capable of plantetary destruction. The average battle cruiser is about seven miles long and they can be equipped for plantetary destruction should the Imperium feel the need to do so.

40k ships have shields too, with an unspecified power, seeing as Warhammer doesn't fall into the same trap as everyone else by specifying the stats of their ships power capabilities, simply mentioning they are huge and powerful. Meanwhile the ships weapons themselves are relatively obcene, from torpedos as large as any fighter the Empire has, to their own powerful Nova Cannons and huge weapon batteries placed along the sides of their ships.

They don't rely on boarding, it's just so much more interesting to concider. Most of the time they just blow the hell out of the enemy, whiping out other alien races simply because they could pose a threat in the future.

As for 40k psychics? They can't be discounted if your going to be comparing universes... I mean come on, Star Wars and Star Trek have their own, albeit much more limited versions of it with your Jedis/Sith and your Telepaths/Empaths. Both of which would be concidered either: Xeno Scum or Witches to be burned in the glory of the Emperor.

Lets face it, 40k wins because it makes a point of being obcenely overpowered.

I think the Space Marines just found its match. This info is found in the Star Wars official database, which can be read online. Just go to starwars.com, click on Database, and search for Stormtroopers. Theres a link to Spacetroopers.

Spacetroopers: "The most heavily armed and armored unit of stormtroopers in the Empire are the Zero-G Assault Troopers, known commonly as spacetroopers. These elite soldiers wear large powered suits of armor that give them the firepower of a light tank. Though standard stormtrooper armor does provide limited protection against hard vacuum, only these soldiers have been extensively trained for combat operations in space.
Spacetroopers are deadly commandos of the highest order, second only to the Imperial Royal Guard. Their primary missions involve the capturing of enemy vessels intact and the pacifying of rebellious crews. Spacetroopers are typically deployed in units of 40 aboard assault shuttles. This platoon of soldiers can overtake capital ships with their determined assaults.

Spacetrooper armor functions as a personal spacecraft and attack vehicle. A spacetrooper wears a standard stormtrooper shell, and then plugs into a larger set of power armor that stands over two meters tall, and is twice as wide across as an unarmored man. For this bulky appearance, spacetroopers are sometimes called "walking tanks."

Powerful weaponry lines the powersuit armor. Paired grenade launchers are shoulder-mounted and magazine-fed, and are capable of launching concussion, stun and gas projectiles. On the right gauntlet is a powerful blaster cannon, while the left gauntlet features a miniature proton torpedo hurler. The gauntlet features laser cutters or rotating sleeves, allowing the spacetrooper to penetrate armored hulls. "

Not even the SMs have such access to weaponary on one person. These guys are for overtaking Capital Ships....and considering the size of the Empires' Fleet, the Empire has a lot of these badasses. They just need to overtake some 40K Imperial capital ship, then blast the SM battle barges out of the sky. Not that the SM and Terminators can't do the same, but if only they can get to the bridge without dying. And please, don't over-exaggerate the Space Marines and Necrons, they're tough, but they still fall to more 'inferior' foes because of massive intake of damage, which is what they will face when boarding.

I also found the Empire has a hefty collection of battle droids armed with a repeating blaster, a concussion missile launcher, and a plasma-burst cannon, and something called a Viper "Automadon" which is armed with 2 Turbolaser Cannons on it's front, 2 Light Laser Cannons sealed beneath its chin, 2 Heavy and 2 Light Laser Cannons on their arms, and 2 Heavy Front Pincers with reflexes fast enough to snare a low-flying airspeeder and rip it to pieces.

This should even things out a bit more for the SW Empire

Not even the SMs have such access to weaponary on one person.

Terminator assualt teams pack a comparable punch. As do Dreadnoughts, Pariahs, Oblitatrators, Grey knights and Tau Crisis Battlesuits. Not to mention an Incubi team led by an Archon. They would turn the spacetroopers into a red mist.

I hear everybody thinks SW stormtroopers (even the imperium of man has their own set of "stormtroopers") suck at ground fighting. Well, they do. Their acuracy is terrible. But, lets remember that in SW: AOTC the clones back then kicked ass. Their accuracy ruled over the droids, because they were the clones of Jango Fett (hell, even their helmit visor was based uppon jango and boba's visors). And in the up comming star wars game; Republic Commando, your allies have really good accuracy, intelligence weapon handiling skills, and armor. It took (at least, from what I saw in the demo of SW:RC, then again, they are apart the republic's special forces) only four clones to conquer a trade federation controle ship. FOUR!!

Then the emire was formed and Palpatine got cocky with his clones. So as the empire's troops got larger and larger, the more Palpatine didn't have to rely on accuracy. He had numbers out in the battle field (same philosophy with the Orcs in 40k, large numbers out on the field, but terrible accuracy) and no accuracy. He also started to not rely on armor, so the armor got weaker (hell, even stone age-carnivorous teddy bears could beat them).

My conclusion: The emperor should of tried to higher Boba fett durring the classic trillogy and re-trained his army through the brilliant weapon accuracy and intelligence of boba fett, and he should add boba's deadly personality ("I want them alive, NO DISINTERGRATIONS,- Vader he was pointing, and shaking his finger at boba fett at this point). Had the emperor done any of this, his army would have kicked the rebel's ass even if he sent 10 men into a heavily armed rebel base. Neither the rebels, or the teddy bears could defeat them. Of course, it would take more time to do any of this, but that is where my empire comes in. We use only the best of the military minds for our clone troopers. . . and clone Sith (of course, the cloned Sith are used in special cases, like massive land battles).

He left off the Squats! [edits initial post]

Damn Titan-cuddling modern 40Kers who've never seen the GLORY of a Cyclops turning one into slag with a single shot, void shields and all...

were you the one who edited my first post?

Boarding was just one arguement... when you directly compare 40k Ships with Star Wars ships you quickly realise that the smallest Imperium of Man ships are around a mile long. You know, the escort ships for the much larger ships capable of plantetary destruction. The average battle cruiser is about seven miles long and they can be equipped for plantetary destruction should the Imperium feel the need to do so.

And the average GE ship is a mile long. With the average battlecruiser being 4 miles long or so and battleships/dreadnaughts being 10-11 miles long.

With even the small destroyers being able to slag the entire surface of a planet by itself.

And then there are the Death Stars, massive starships the size of moons that blow apart planets so that the debris moves off at 5% light speed. They're equivalent to billions of ships in and off themselves and are so heavily armed and armoured that they can be called invincible barring some freakish anomaly of a force-sensitve pilot, a smuggler with a quilty conscience and an arrogant idiotic commander.

I'm sick of people claiming that WH40K ships are superior just because the universe is supposed to be obcenely powerful. Guess what the Galactic Empire's ships are obcenely powerful too.

40k ships have shields too, with an unspecified power, seeing as Warhammer doesn't fall into the same trap as everyone else by specifying the stats of their ships power capabilities, simply mentioning they are huge and powerful. Meanwhile the ships weapons themselves are relatively obcene, from torpedos as large as any fighter the Empire has, to their own powerful Nova Cannons and huge weapon batteries placed along the sides of their ships.

Right huge and powerful weapons and shields. Nice unspecific and subjective terms with plenty of room to always ratchet up your power when need be. "The Acclamator-class troop transport has 200-gigaton yield per heavy canon you say? We can deal with that because we have huge and powerful shields and weapons.

"How huge and powerful you ask? As huge and powerful as is needed to crush you of course, what a silly question."

If you didn't get the message here it is. A term like "huge" or "powerful" are inherently meaningless and offer no constraints. A piece of artillery would be huge and powerful to people in the midages, a nuclear weapon would be huge and powerful to people in the 1800's and the Death Star would be huge and powerful for well into the future. It offers the WH40K supporters a free licence to say whatever the hell they want. If your reference is unspecific than you can always make your ships a little bit bigger, your troops a little more plentiful and your weapons just a little bit more powerful.


They don't rely on boarding, it's just so much more interesting to concider. Most of the time they just blow the hell out of the enemy, whiping out other alien races simply because they could pose a threat in the future.

And an Empire which blows up planets for show wouldn't do this?

As for 40k psychics? They can't be discounted if your going to be comparing universes... I mean come on, Star Wars and Star Trek have their own, albeit much more limited versions of it with your Jedis/Sith and your Telepaths/Empaths. Both of which would be concidered either: Xeno Scum or Witches to be burned in the glory of the Emperor.

I have never used the Jedi/Sith in any of my arguments as I consider them to be unfair as well, and if did use them I would be a hypocrit. However I never will use them in my arguments.

Lets face it, 40k wins because it makes a point of being obcenely overpowered.

So does Star Wars.

Ever heard of suspension of disbelief? It's what you use when analyising sci-fi. We know that said event is a plot device, but we have to act like it's part of the universe or else we get nowhere.So why do you refuse to accept this for both sides?

Again Suspepension of Disbelief. In the universe the bombs or whatnot were supposed to work but didn't. This is indicitative of something all though I don't know what, I never really watched DS9. You can't just dismiss these events by saying they're plot devices.Then watch it. The particular Instance I was referring to had ten Cardassian and 10 Romulan standard vessels toasting 20%+ of a planetary surface with one salvo.

AT-ST's are recon vehicles, not tanks.Recon vehicles slower, louder and less maneuverable as Infantry, while at the same time excessively tall and thus easy to spot? Gosh. Says something about the abilities of the average Empire engineer...

One instance where the thin-walled packing crate didn't stop a phaser blast, several hundred where they did. Obviously the exception is the instance where it did penetrate the crate. If you think otherwise you have an even more warped sense of reality than before.Hey, you said it yourself: Variable power levels. Again, why do you give SW the credit of assuming the most positive assumption, but not Star Trek? And face it It did happen, so: DEAL.

Oh, and before I forget it: You're using the same argument to explain the AT-AT's. Just with less usable evidence.

Fair enough, then let me say it's more like fugitives and homegrown cults in the US mainland avoiding detection. And you seem to forget the scale of the SW galaxy. In it a terrorist rebel organization with a rag-tag fleet is equivalent to tiny resistance groups with AK's here on Earth.
Unfortunately, it isn't. Ships, fighter production etc need tons more of basic logistics, of knowledge etc. than your shiny AKs. The amount of resources per capita grows, vastly. As such, no, it isn't equivalent. It would be equivalent to, uh, Iraqis raiding US bases with half a dozen helicopters. At best.

Can the US goverment stop criminals, terrorists or gangs from obtaining guns on the black market? Absolutely not, the same goes for the Empire and the Rebels. You have have no sense of reality at all if you expect a galacy spanning empire to keep track of every little detail in every single corperation.Actually, it's more like you're completely incapable of even remotely grasping the fact I mentioned above. That It becomes progressively harder to obtain such things, if you make this things bigger.

Sad, really.

Now, in More Detail... We have the Empire fighting the rebels. Taking significant losses (I.e. Deatstars). They can spot the fighters the rebels use.

Now... What would a sane Imperium do?

1. Check on Corporations/ Organisations capable of building such things.

2. Those they find can be checked in more detail. Now, if the Empire is lucky, it might catch a few parts of such rebel fighters. That's the amusing thing with this kind of high tech equipment. Unlike the guns you're comparing the fighters to, an aerospace fighter is an excessively complex piece of machinery. There will be absolutely necessary parts that can easily be tracked back. Specialisation. As such, they will find out.

Yet, they didn't.

There are other ways. Funding. Resource allocation. Traitors. Drunk workers. Etc.

Yet they didn't. And as such, and given that I did explain earlier why your 'comparison' is falwed in the extreme... Bang. Wrong.

Yes, that's what power generators are for dimwit.Yes. And you fail to realise that the power generated would vaporise the fighter, even assuming an obscene efficiency of 99%, which is orders (Yes, plural) of magnitude better than what one would expect (Heck, it would prolly achive sufficient damage to take it out at an efficiency of... 99.99999%).

Which was my point to begin with, the very point you failed to answer. I suggest you learn how to interpret text. It ain't easy, but I'm sure you will succeed, Einstein.

I'm saying AT-AT's weren't firing thermonuclear level yields to take out ground troops. What would be the point when you can conserve energy and do just a good of job using a lower yield.

It's obvious from TESB that AT-AT guns have a variable yield, when destroying the rebel shield generator the gunenr says, "Target maximum firepower." This obviously means that before then the AT-AT guns were not using their highest yield setting. The explosion caused by the impact of the blasters was large enough to be seen from 17.28 km away, "Range to target one-seven decimal two-eight." Undoubtedly you'll say the massive explosion came from the shield generator, but there were two explosions. One when the blasters hit and the other much larger one when the generator exploded. Both were visible at 17.28 km distance. That's one hell of an explosion.
Now, this is certainly true. Variable yields are possible. Unfortunately, I'm receiving quite a bit of amusement by you applying grossly different standards to ST & SW. What exactly tells you that the shield generator can't suffer two explosions? It is actually quite common that such complex pieces of equipment don't exactly explode all at once, but in chain reactions. Apart from that, the fighter argument applies here, too. And given the fighter argument, it sounds vastly more 'realistic' that the thing exploded in such a chain reaction.

Yes, when the AT-AT was firing with anti-personel yields. You wouldn't use a nuke to take out a group of 3 people would you?I wouldn't use a monstertank, either. Especially not without sufficient fighter/ infantry cover...

Superior firepower, superior industrial capacity and superior FTL are all primary arguments for Star Wars. The fall back argument for time travel is the fact that the Star Wars universe has had the superior firepower, industrial capacity anf FTL for thousands of years.Not really. The same problem is still applying. You're refusing one side its full capacities, while not doing the same to the other. And this is simply not acceptable. What you could do is accepting that both (Or all three) universes cannot actually be compared, due to the vast differences between them.

But that would require you to stop thinking of SW as 'RAWR TEH ÜBER! I STOMP YOU!!!11', wouldn't it?

Then why didn't the federation use time travel to save their ass from the Dominion or the Borg, I know time-travel was used in First Contact but the Borg did it not the Enterprise.To apply your very own 'argument': Suspension of disbelief?

Oh, wait, your arguments may only be used to support Star Wars, but not Star Trek?

Star Trek would be a nuiscance to the Republic. And if ST started attacking Republic worlds they would be dealt with. Even if by seperatists.The thing is that ST would, by its very nature, not attack the Republic... Neither the Republic ST...

And then there are the Death Stars, massive starships the size of moons that blow apart planets so that the debris moves off at 5% light speed. They're equivalent to billions of ships in and off themselves and are so heavily armed and armoured that they can be called invincible barring some freakish anomaly of a force-sensitve pilot, a smuggler with a quilty conscience and an arrogant idiotic commander.Ever heard of suspension of disbelief? It's what you use when analyising sci-fi. We know that said event is a plot device, but we have to act like it's part of the universe or else we get nowhere....

If you didn't get the message here it is. A term like "huge" or "powerful" are inherently meaningless and offer no constraints. A piece of artillery would be huge and powerful to people in the midages, a nuclear weapon would be huge and powerful to people in the 1800's and the Death Star would be huge and powerful for well into the future. It offers the WH40K supporters a free licence to say whatever the hell they want. If your reference is unspecific than you can always make your ships a little bit bigger, your troops a little more plentiful and your weapons just a little bit more powerful.This is, unfortunately, not at all worse than Scriptwriters confusing 'Gigaton' with 'Gigajoule' (The only way I can explain SW's obscene yields to myself) and doing next to zero background research to see if his/ her claims work out or are merely ludicrous fapping.

So why do you refuse to accept this for both sides?

Please tell me where I did this and I will attempt to rectify the mistake.

Then watch it. The particular Instance I was referring to had ten Cardassian and 10 Romulan standard vessels toasting 20%+ of a planetary surface with one salvo.

I believe the episode you're reffering to is "The Die is Cast" from DS9. I actually saw this episode but it was years ago when I did. And from what I remember there where a bunch of at most 100 megaton explosion fireballs where the phasers/disruptors hit. Then apparently there was dialogue in which it was claimed 20% of the crust was destroyed. Which just isn't possible given the way the bombardment looked.

It was more like the end scence in Terminator 3 with all the bombs than this:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/ForeShadow-Planet.jpg

Which is what it would really look like there was significant disruption of a planet's crust.

And must I bring up that a single ISD can slag the surface of a planet by itself in under an hour again?

Recon vehicles slower, louder and less maneuverable as Infantry, while at the same time excessively tall and thus easy to spot? Gosh. Says something about the abilities of the average Empire engineer...

According to the Star Wars Encyclopedia an AT-ST can make 90 km/h on flat terrain. That's not slow. Remember that the AT-ST's on Endor where in a jungle environment, that would slow down everything.

A Humvee is also less maneuverable, louder and more noticeable than infantry. That doesn't mean they're not usefull for close-in support of armour or recon.

Also an AT-ST's height, while making it more visible, also gives the crew a better view of the battlefield. A decent trade off in my mind.

I really fail to see how a design which fills it role well can be claimed as a poor design.

Hey, you said it yourself: Variable power levels. Again, why do you give SW the credit of assuming the most positive assumption, but not Star Trek? And face it It did happen, so: DEAL.

Oh, and before I forget it: You're using the same argument to explain the AT-AT's. Just with less usable evidence.

Fair enough. But if a phaser set to a higher yield can burn through the packing crates with ease, why does no one ever set their phaser to that higher setting more than once in a blue moon thus nullifying the protective value of the crates?

And yes the explosion argument was weak and I retract it. I replace it with the following: It would take a much higher yield to destroy the shield generator that was seen used in anti-personnel shots. The shield generator was destroyed by the same cannons used for anti-personnel shots. It is reasonable to assume that the cannons have a variable yield with an upper limit much greater than that seen in anti-personnel use.

Unfortunately, it isn't. Ships, fighter production etc need tons more of basic logistics, of knowledge etc. than your shiny AKs. The amount of resources per capita grows, vastly. As such, no, it isn't equivalent. It would be equivalent to, uh, Iraqis raiding US bases with half a dozen helicopters. At best.

My comparison was wrong. It is more like the United States having a war with a small nation with its own limited production facilities.

In the Rebels case they have Rebel sympathetic worlds which would donate equipment bought or made by them, such as Mon Cal cruisers.

The Empire would of course crack down on this, but this would just increase Rebel support in that system increasing the black market goods flowing to the Rebels.


Yes. And you fail to realise that the power generated would vaporise the fighter, even assuming an obscene efficiency of 99%, which is orders (Yes, plural) of magnitude better than what one would expect (Heck, it would prolly achive sufficient damage to take it out at an efficiency of... 99.99999%).

Which was my point to begin with, the very point you failed to answer. I suggest you learn how to interpret text. It ain't easy, but I'm sure you will succeed, Einstein.

I see now in your much clearer post that you are reffering to waste heat. This was not clear at all, despite what you may think, from your original comment


And I doubt them, simple as that. You see, the energy has to come from somewhere. Fast. As in, you will have the energy of a thermonuclear warhead removing your fighter as soon as it fires.

From this I took it to mean you were refering to power generation. With me taking the line "removing your fighter" to be a typo for "removed from your fighter".

I must also revise my fighter yield from thermonuclear yield to low-yeild nuclear weapon yeild. I confused the passage in the ROTJ novelization. However from ANH when Luke vaporizes a section of unshielded DS armor, which if it were made of Iron would give us a conservative lower limit of 60 GJ. However considering that unshielded TIE fighters can survive atmospheric entry, something Iron could not do, it is likely that Laser cannon yields would be in the terajoule range as suggested by some novels. Which would mean it could range from 1 to 900 kilotons.

And since the fighters aren't vapourized every time they fire they must be able to handle it. I don't know how they do, but they obviously do it.


Now, this is certainly true. Variable yields are possible. Unfortunately, I'm receiving quite a bit of amusement by you applying grossly different standards to ST & SW. What exactly tells you that the shield generator can't suffer two explosions? It is actually quite common that such complex pieces of equipment don't exactly explode all at once, but in chain reactions. Apart from that, the fighter argument applies here, too. And given the fighter argument, it sounds vastly more 'realistic' that the thing exploded in such a chain reaction.

I already conceded that my explosion argument was wrong. However please point out where I was unfair and I will attempt to correct the mistake.


I wouldn't use a monstertank, either. Especially not without sufficient fighter/ infantry cover...

We saw a very small view of the Battle of Hoth in TESB. From what I've heard there is infantry and possible fighter cover in the novel. We just never saw it on screen.


Not really. The same problem is still applying. You're refusing one side its full capacities, while not doing the same to the other. And this is simply not acceptable. What you could do is accepting that both (Or all three) universes cannot actually be compared, due to the vast differences between them.

Please tell me where I denied Trek its full capacity outside of psychic/magic/uberbeings as I deny everything those, which is something I have been totally upfront about and have already given my reasons for doing. Once you tell me I will yet again revise my arguments.

However, there is absolutely no fun in accepting that they can't be compared. It's far more enjoyable to engage in debates like this, but to each their own.


But that would require you to stop thinking of SW as 'RAWR TEH ÜBER! I STOMP YOU!!!11', wouldn't it?

To be honest I only marginally like Star Wars. I like SG-1, Halo and The Conguerer's Trilogy by Timoth Zahn so much more. However that doesn't mean I don't recognize that the Goa'Uld(sp), Asgard, the UNSC and the Zhirzzh(sp) would get their buts kicked by the Empire.


To apply your very own 'argument': Suspension of disbelief?

Suspension of disbelief is what everybody uses when arguing about sci-fi. FTL travel and transporters are impossible as we know it but we accept them as being true for the sake of argument.


Oh, wait, your arguments may only be used to support Star Wars, but not Star Trek?

I am supporting Star Wars here. However if you would please point to any place where you thought I was unfair please point me to it and I'll see if I can't correct it.


The thing is that ST would, by its very nature, not attack the Republic... Neither the Republic ST...

Then I guess you wouldn't have to worry about getting your but kicked by the Republic then.



This is, unfortunately, not at all worse than Scriptwriters confusing 'Gigaton' with 'Gigajoule' (The only way I can explain SW's obscene yields to myself) and doing next to zero background research to see if his/ her claims work out or are merely ludicrous fapping.

The insane yields are derived from observed instances in the films, such as Alderaan's destruction and the asteroid vapourizations in TESB. And Star Trek hardly has it any better in this regard as it's writers use terms like Watts/second and use Watts as a unit of energy rather than power.

I have never used the Jedi/Sith in any of my arguments as I consider them to be unfair as well, and if did use them I would be a hypocrit. However I never will use them in my arguments.

Yet they are part of the fiction you are arguing for... are you saying that Jedi/Sith do not play a important role in the whole concept of Star Wars?

If you ignore the whole magic thing for Warhammer 40'000 then yeah, damn near anyone could beat them because their ships depend on the Emperor in order to navigate and commincate... while you didn't mention Jedi or Sith, I mentioned them in my arguement because they are an important part of the fiction. Star Wars would be a completely different fiction if you threw away the whole force thing, as would Warhammer 40'000 be completely different without Psykers, the Emperor (who is as wanky as you can get) and the Warp. They can't really be taken our of the equation if you are judging those fictions based on canon.

And an Empire which blows up planets for show wouldn't do this?

Well, I wouldn't call it a hobby as they only acheived it once as far as I'm aware. I mean, why bother with a Death Star if their big ships can already do it?

My comment was that something which was a huge plot for the Empire is a relatively common occurance for the Imperium of Man. In a sense they are very similar, it's just that the Imperium of Man is more extreem and has been doing it for much longer.

"How huge and powerful you ask? As huge and powerful as is needed to crush you of course, what a silly question."

Sounds about right. Then again, I've already said this whole arguement is rather silly in the first place given that these fictions aren't designed to compete and don't always concentrate on specifing the stats for every shield system... I mean, lets face it the only reason Star Wars and Star Trek have figures for their ships when it comes to power is because they can sell it to the fans. Warhammer 40'000 doesn't do that because they publish game rules and it's a different system altogether as people want to know the power in relation to those rules, not real life.

I genuinely was under the impression that some of the largest ships in Star Wars were around a mile long, perhaps a triple that in rare examples. Chances are that I'm wrong, but then again it doesn't change my opinion that Warhammer 40'000 is more excessive... doesn't mean I'm right of course because I'm not about to look the facts up on eitherside to support my opinion, I just prefer W40k.

My arguements are unspecific because I judge them all on the basic story and fiction of each universe... I like Warhammer 40'000 because of it's excessive tendancies, the fact that they've reached a point where the destruction of a world simply because it's "tainted" is affordable to them, where they have vast numbers of worlds dedicated to doing nothing other then mass producing weapons for their armies.

However, I don't like you're attacks against my unspecific terms, especially concidering that these are fictions, more often then note they make a note of not being specific so they don't have to spend all their time scientifically working out their creations instead of working on the very story itself.


Now, if you're sick of my opinion, then I would suggest leaving it at the understanding that I just think differently then you do. 'cause my opinion isn't going to change reguardless.

OK people. Only ten days left for the poll to close and I make my decision.
So far, only these people have Specificlly stated on who they want to play as:

Imperials (Galactic empire) = Stellar Nations
Sith Empire (allied automaticlly with Galactic empire) = Huntaer (me)
Tau = Pantycellen (i'm guessing he wants to be the tau)

If I left anybody else who already called who they wanted to be, please start speaking up NOW. There are only 10 days left (there abouts). So everyone start choosing your nations and stop bickering!! This is a Poll site, not a debate. If you wish to debate, then go to this thread:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=389112. There, you can debate, slice at eachothers throats untill your hearts content. This was suppose to be a thread to help me decide if I should start up a RP with the three universes. If you want to be a nation that is already taken, remember that two people can play as one government/civilization. I've decided that combining technoligies will be saved for another time for an RP.

So... Ladies and Gentelmen! Pick your Governments!!
Mwuhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

I am so being part of the Galactic Empire. I want a Soveriegn!

I am so being part of the Galactic Empire. I want a Soveriegn!

Likewise. Except I want a fully complete Death Star II :D

Now, if you're sick of my opinion, then I would suggest leaving it at the understanding that I just think differently then you do. 'cause my opinion isn't going to change reguardless.

We'll agree to disagree then.

And Der Angst so as the OP has asked for this debate to stop here I suggest we move it to the thread he linked or continue it over e-mail. My address is tergwherDONOTWRITETHIS@hotmail.com

I'll be Chaos Space Marines!

Are either Old or New Republic included in this? If so, I want the Old Rep (yay clones), please. If neither are available, I'll join the GE. (I want an Executor).

OK people. Only ten days left for the poll to close and I make my decision.
So far, only these people have Specificlly stated on who they want to play as:

Imperials (Galactic empire) = Stellar Nations
Sith Empire (allied automaticlly with Galactic empire) = Huntaer (me)
Tau = Pantycellen (i'm guessing he wants to be the tau)

If I left anybody else who already called who they wanted to be, please start speaking up NOW. There are only 10 days left (there abouts). So everyone start choosing your nations and stop bickering!! This is a Poll site, not a debate. If you wish to debate, then go to this thread:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=389112. There, you can debate, slice at eachothers throats untill your hearts content. This was suppose to be a thread to help me decide if I should start up a RP with the three universes. If you want to be a nation that is already taken, remember that two people can play as one government/civilization. I've decided that combining technoligies will be saved for another time for an RP.

So... Ladies and Gentelmen! Pick your Governments!!
Mwuhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

Me -> 40K -> Imperium -> Space Marines -> Blood Angels Chapter.

Oh yes.

The Blood Angels rule.

You will know this to be true.

If Pantycellen doesn't decide to go Tau, i'll go for them. There's just something so appealing about a race dedicated to making things either explode or turn into bleeding swiss cheese....

Likewise. Except I want a fully complete Death Star II :D

I must oppologize Xessmithia for Stellar Nations and Industrial Experiment
claimed the Galactic Empire first. On the other hand, the Sith empires use very simillar technologies to the Galactic Empire if you wish to be them. We could be allies. Allies of Huntaer in the SW universe will have full access to Huntaer's Star Forge abilities, an uber war factory space station that we have discovered in the Unknown reigons of space.

It enables the user to create a vast fleet in a short amount of time and resources :P. Unfortunatlly for the Republic (old and new), they can't have immediate access due to the fact that they aren't dark side users. Though, as leader, I can controle the ships produced for both the old and new republic.

Then again, Stellar Nations said he'll play IF he decides to join.

Could I be 40k Imperial Space Marines? The Space Wolves chapter to be specific.

everyone who has made a request as of this page has been confirmed.

Attention to all participants!!!

All who participate in the RP will receive a 20% discount off of my store fronts. here are the thread if you are interested:
Naval Store Front (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=383626&page=1&pp=15)
Land Assault store front (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=8025118#post8025118)

I must oppologize Xessmithia for Stellar Nations and Industrial Experiment
claimed the Galactic Empire first. On the other hand, the Sith empires use very simillar technologies to the Galactic Empire if you wish to be them. We could be allies. Allies of Huntaer in the SW universe will have full access to Huntaer's Star Forge abilities, an uber war factory space station that we have discovered in the Unknown reigons of space.

It enables the user to create a vast fleet in a short amount of time and resources :P. Unfortunatlly for the Republic (old and new), they can't have immediate access due to the fact that they aren't dark side users. Though, as leader, I can controle the ships produced for both the old and new republic.

Then again, Stellar Nations said he'll play IF he decides to join.

Why can't three nations RP as part of the Galactic Empire?

And I know what the Star Forge is. I made a sweet ass set of Jedi Robes with that thing :p

Why can't three nations RP as part of the Galactic Empire?

And I know what the Star Forge is. I made a sweet ass set of Jedi Robes with that thing :p

If two can, three should be able to. But I call Core Fleet Command ;)

If two can, three should be able to. But I call Core Fleet Command ;)

Very well but I still want the DS2 ;). I have some good ideas for Imperial strategy against WH40K.

Very well but I still want the DS2 ;). I have some good ideas for Imperial strategy against WH40K.

Of course, I have no interest in saying "You may fire when ready", I'm more interested in "Hey there, I've got 1,000 (Count 'em!) mile long ships all ready to ram up your ass!".

By the way, not to go off topic, but what do y'all think of my latest attempt at making a good looking ship in 3D?

http://a.1asphost.com/Plushie/Beehive%20Class%20Escort%20Carrier.PNG

For stats and stuff you can go to my info thread here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=352433), it's the SCVE-11

Dude, that's pretty good 3D modelling. Good job.

Star Wars, all the way. I mean, come on, Lightsabers! LIGHTSABERS! :p

Although probably only the Jedi era, as in Knights Of The Old Republic era. Having the Rebels around would be useless, because WH4K chaos marines would massacre them. But Jedis, on the other hand............

So, can I be the Old Republic? You may have answered but I've missed it.

You know what? There should be room for more than 2 nations who want to be a certaint faction within the three universes. So, everyone who wants to be imperial, be imperial.

So, can I be the Old Republic? You may have answered but I've missed it.

Check out the first post where I list the different factions. You are listed underneath "Old Republic".

everyone who has made a request as of this page has been confirmed.

Attention to all participants!!!

All who participate in the RP will receive a 20% discount off of my store fronts. here are the thread if you are interested:
Naval Store Front (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=383626&page=1&pp=15)
Land Assault store front (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=8025118#post8025118)

I shall take ye up on this offer later. Is it OK if I assume I already have 100 marines?

I shall take ye up on this offer later. Is it OK if I assume I already have 100 marines?

Hey, I don't mind. Go ahead and buy up.

See. I told you I'd missed it. Thanks.

Btw, am I on my own at the moment?

See. I told you I'd missed it. Thanks.

Btw, am I on my own at the moment?

I'm not sure. As of now, I don't know whether or not to have nations form their own aliances, or if the factions from each universe be automaticly allied. Suggestions, anyone?

You know what? There should be room for more than 2 nations who want to be a certaint faction within the three universes. So, everyone who wants to be imperial, be imperial.

Thanks Huntaer. And factions should be allied to face the greater threat from another universe unless they have extremely bad compatibility. For example the Alpha quadrant factions would unite but the Borg would still want to kill them. Chaos wouldn't unite with Order and the Yuuzhan Vong wouldn't unite with the Empire. It would make for interesting sub-plots beyond the main one. Like we could have a battle with an ISD vs some Fed ships suddenly turning on the Borg who just arrived.

OOh can i be Chaos please please pretty please?

OOh can i be Chaos please please pretty please?

No Problem. I'll up date the list.

Wait a minute. So far as i know, there is a chaos of almost everything isn't there? Except for necrons, they are already chaos themselves.
My question is; which chaos? I assume it's Marines?

NERD FIGHT!

Thanks Huntaer. And factions should be allied to face the greater threat from another universe unless they have extremely bad compatibility. For example the Alpha quadrant factions would unite but the Borg would still want to kill them. Chaos wouldn't unite with Order and the Yuuzhan Vong wouldn't unite with the Empire. It would make for interesting sub-plots beyond the main one. Like we could have a battle with an ISD vs some Fed ships suddenly turning on the Borg who just arrived.

It would make interesting sub-plots. I was thinking that we could have small skirmishes between factions of the three diferent universes...

NERD FIGHT!

Umm...
What do you have for armies? You have to be knowledgable of your armie inorder to know what you are talking about. I could call anyone who knows a lot about the US army Nerds too, eventhough it's not science fiction.

Anyone who is going to clame a faction with in the Star Trek Universe?

Dude, that's pretty good 3D modelling. Good job.

Star Wars, all the way. I mean, come on, Lightsabers! LIGHTSABERS! :p

Although probably only the Jedi era, as in Knights Of The Old Republic era. Having the Rebels around would be useless, because WH4K chaos marines would massacre them. But Jedis, on the other hand............

So, do you want to be just Jedi?

Anyone who is going to clame a faction with in the Star Trek Universe?
Of course not! The only way they could win would be blatant god-modding, what with time-travel and the Q-continuum thingy.

Anyone who is going to clame a faction with in the Star Trek Universe?

Of course not! The only way they could win would be blatant god-modding, what with time-travel and the Q-continuum thingy.

Yeah. The best bet from Star Trek is the Tribbles, just overrun your enemies with innummerable little furry ball thingies. Or maybe the Borg. Nah, just the Tribbles

Psykers would own Jedi, at any turn. Psykers (Especially Alpha Class Psykers) are far more powerful than Jedi

No Problem. I'll up date the list.

Wait a minute. So far as i know, there is a chaos of almost everything isn't there? Except for necrons, they are already chaos themselves.
My question is; which chaos? I assume it's Marines?

Corrrect i would like to be the chaos space marines (Are daemons allowed? If not it does not matter)

Hey! I'm Chaos Marines! *growl*

There can be more then one right?

There can be more then one right?
Yes, there can be more than one.

Psykers would own Jedi, at any turn. Psykers (Especially Alpha Class Psykers) are far more powerful than Jedi

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't beleive that Psykers have a power that could influence the out-come of the fight. That is what the force power "battle meditaton" can do. Bastila, from KOTOR 1, helped the republic win key victories in the Jedi Civil war against Malak after Revan was captured.
Her "battle meditation" influenced thousands of ground troops to win against impossible odds.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't beleive that Psykers have a power that could influence the out-come of the fight. That is what the force power "battle meditaton" can do. Bastila, from KOTOR 1, helped the republic win key victories in the Jedi Civil war against Malak after Revan was captured.
Her "battle meditation" influenced thousands of ground troops to win against impossible odds.
Their psychic? Haven't you heard of mind control?

Anybody going to clame other factions?

Or is this just it?

Battle Meditation is meaningless. Sure it can inspire troops; but that doesn't ensure victory. The great irony of KOTOR is that Bastila made jack shit of a difference against Revan; she got lucky because Malak got ambitious. The sheer power of some Psykers can decimate entire worlds; which is why untrained Psykers are considered such a threat. If such a Psyker were used by the forces of the Warp; the Jedi would stand even less of a chance.

Battle Meditation is meaningless. Sure it can inspire troops; but that doesn't ensure victory. The great irony of KOTOR is that Bastila made jack shit of a difference against Revan; she got lucky because Malak got ambitious. The sheer power of some Psykers can decimate entire worlds; which is why untrained Psykers are considered such a threat. If such a Psyker were used by the forces of the Warp; the Jedi would stand even less of a chance.

Are you saying a Jedi Can't decimate an entire world through the force?
They could. As a plot in KOTOR 2, there's a sith lord that destroyed an entire planet just because the jedi rallied there in hopes of reveiling their new enemy. As a result, the sith lord came, saw, and destroyed. He also eliminated an entire specie. Only one remained, and she became his apprentice.

Battle Meditation is meaningless. Sure it can inspire troops; but that doesn't ensure victory. The great irony of KOTOR is that Bastila made jack shit of a difference against Revan; she got lucky because Malak got ambitious. The sheer power of some Psykers can decimate entire worlds; which is why untrained Psykers are considered such a threat. If such a Psyker were used by the forces of the Warp; the Jedi would stand even less of a chance.

And she was one, untrained jedi with a passing talent in battle meditation. At the height of their power, jedi using battle meditation could inspire opposing forces to rout just by their sheer prescence. Heck, the Emperor used a form of battle meditation constantly from his rise to power that effected ALL of his forces THROUGHOUT the galaxy.

And need I point out Darth Nihilus? He killed every being on a planet simply by willing it so. He wasn't a god, he didn't need to be, he was a mortal with that kind of power. The Emperor's Force Storm, should he have chosen to cause it on a planet, would have torn such a planet apart.

Never underestimate the force so casually.

And she was one, untrained jedi with a passing talent in battle meditation. At the height of their power, jedi using battle meditation could inspire opposing forces to rout just by their sheer prescence. Heck, the Emperor used a form of battle meditation constantly from his rise to power that effected ALL of his forces THROUGHOUT the galaxy.

And need I point out Darth Nihilus? He killed every being on a planet simply by willing it so. He wasn't a god, he didn't need to be, he was a mortal with that kind of power. The Emperor's Force Storm, should he have chosen to cause it on a planet, would have torn such a planet apart.

Never underestimate the force so casually.

Darth Nihilus! That was his name! Thank you I.E.! Thank you!

How about Spieces 8472 vs the Yasam Vong (sorry if there is a mis-spelling on the latter)

Always with the spiritual and mental powers....
Not enough in the physical and mundane.

Sure you can move planets, destroy them, whatever.
But when a Blank (People that are anethem to psykers) double fists a power sword through your sternum, or backhands your face hard enough to crack skull, don't cry about it cause your mind didnt do Jack crap. :headbang:

Besides...
Being an Iron Warrior has advantages...
Don't feel like dropping in on the planet...
Fine....Virus bomb the heck out of it. :gundge:

Regardless....
Star Wars was long ago....
Star Trek....you got me....which one first of all...there's only what?
10 spin-offs.
And 40K is so far in the future, they should be even more advanced than they are.

Always with the spiritual and mental powers....
Not enough in the physical and mundane.

Sure you can move planets, destroy them, whatever.
But when a Blank (People that are anethem to psykers) double fists a power sword through your sternum, or backhands your face hard enough to crack skull, don't cry about it cause your mind didnt do Jack crap. :headbang:


Umm... That is why Jedi and Sith use light sabers in combat.

How about Spieces 8472 vs the Yasam Vong (sorry if there is a mis-spelling on the latter)

Not sure, depends if someone chooses 8472 and the Yuusong Vong. Tha will be for them to decide.

Not sure, depends if someone chooses 8472 and the Yuusong Vong. Tha will be for them to decide.

No I mean, who do you think would win?

No I mean, who do you think would win?

Hmm... Not sure. Probably the Yuusong Vong because they nearly caused the Jedi to go extinct again, and they forced the Empire and New Republic to sign a treaty.

Umm... That is why Jedi and Sith use light sabers in combat.

Ahem... force swords... meaty weapons slicing through any armour in one go with the added effect of making whatever the target is's brain dribble out of its ears in blackened clumps (provided its organic of course.) Put it this way. At the beginning of episode 1 when qui-gon jinn melts through the door with his lightsaber? A force sword would slice through it like paper.

And also in episode 1, obi wan's sabre fries itself because he got it wet. A force-sword works underwater, and the space marine power armour means he can breathe underwater too, even if the jedi have those mini-breather things.

Ahem... force swords... meaty weapons slicing through any armour in one go with the added effect of making whatever the target is's brain dribble out of its ears in blackened clumps (provided its organic of course.) Put it this way. At the beginning of episode 1 when qui-gon jinn melts through the door with his lightsaber? A force sword would slice through it like paper.

And also in episode 1, obi wan's sabre fries itself because he got it wet. A force-sword works underwater, and the space marine power armour means he can breathe underwater too, even if the jedi have those mini-breather things.

Good point about those defects. Another reason why my army isn't all star wars or 40k, and is actually a mix :).

I think Harry Potter could beat all of them! :p

[j/k]

Hmm... Not sure. Probably the Yuusong Vong because they nearly caused the Jedi to go extinct again, and they forced the Empire and New Republic to sign a treaty.

The 8472's could decimate the Borg and are immune to all forms of enegy weapons (It would seem). Modified Borg nanoprobes can kill them but they have been adapting, slowly

I think Harry Potter could beat all of them! :p

[j/k]

I like the potter books by J.K., but there is no way in hell Potter'll beable to beat all of the universes. No one in potter's world could. Even voldemort.
All a jedi/sith has to do is slice their wands with their lightsabers, and then slice them in half. Space marines could slice them with their power swords. Both the Sith and the Psykers could easily beat potter and would make Voldemorts horrific actions look like child's play.

The 8472's could decimate the Borg and are immune to all forms of enegy weapons (It would seem). Modified Borg nanoprobes can kill them but they have been adapting, slowly

Umm... Yuusong Vong destroyed Coruscant... They caused chewie to die (worst part in the New Jedi Order series, chewie was cool). They also caused a part in the fact that the New Republic had to sign a treaty with the Imperial Remnants. I don't think that 8472 could do this, especially after the borg and voyager allied and used the nanites that the Docter created against 8472.

ATTENTION TO ALL WHO VOTED!!!!

THERE ARE ONLY FOUR DAYS LEFT. SO FAR, A FEW 40K FACTIONS AND SW FACTIONS ARE PARTICIPATING!! GRAB WHAT FACTIONS WHAT YOU WANT NOW!!! THIS IS A LAST REMINDER!!

Bump!!

Oh, and another thing...

Star forges? a huge space-station factory building stuff? pathetic. Introducing the WH40K forge world. An entire planet building stuff. And these may be planets bigger than Earth, I think some are about the size of Jupiter.

Oh, and another thing...

Star forges? a huge space-station factory building stuff? pathetic. Introducing the WH40K forge world. An entire planet building stuff. And these may be planets bigger than Earth, I think some are about the size of Jupiter.

Umm...

Don't see how a huge space-station factory building stuff is pathetic. It is fueled by the dark side of the force. And besides, if you want a large fleet like I do, then you should have bothe stations, and planets so you can produce a lot of stuff at once.

Oh, and another thing...

Star forges? a huge space-station factory building stuff? pathetic. Introducing the WH40K forge world. An entire planet building stuff. And these may be planets bigger than Earth, I think some are about the size of Jupiter.


Looking at the Star Forge it actually seemed to be about half the star's diameter. And that's a helluva lot bigger than Jupiter.

*Sigh* I guess I change my mind for those who haven't claimed their factions all of those who have posted be on the look out for a "40k,ST,SW Sign Up" post later on today. There, I would Like it if you would state what you are using, (star ships, land assault vehicals, troops, special abilities).

IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR THOSE INVOLVED, OR VOTED AND WANT TO BE INVOLVED!

This is the link for the sign up thread. I'll telegram the nations that are involved, or have expressed intrests in being involved.

40k, ST, SW Sign Up (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=393672)

attention To Voters!! Poll Ends Tomorrow And Will Not Return! The Results Of The Poll Will Determin Who Wins The Rp!! Last Chance To Vote!!


Remember: No Gods Alowed When Considering Votes!!

Why isn't Ender's Game included? They would win. Not only do they have genetically modified military geniuses, they have teleportation and the Dr. Device. Just plop Peter and a Dr. Device down on a planet, put a second on the device, TP Peter back. Rinse and Repeat until SW, ST and 40K surrender.

Why isn't Ender's Game included? They would win. Not only do they have genetically modified military geniuses, they have teleportation and the Dr. Device. Just plop Peter and a Dr. Device down on a planet, put a second on the device, TP Peter back. Rinse and Repeat until SW, ST and 40K surrender.

Umm... No. 40k Has a lot of genetically modified military geniuses. That is what all of the Space Marines basically are. Second, SW has the Sun Crusher, and the Force. Lord Nihilus destroyed an entire planet with the force from sheer will. The sun crusher could destroy an entire system of planets, murdering over countless trillions.

OCC: By the way, I have read Enders Game and enjoyed it. It's just that it's not as big as 40k, ST, or SW. Enders Game doesn't have it's own conventions, does it?

No, it doesn't, insofar as I know.

I just posted that because I don't have a clue regarding the whole thing, so I just posted some non-sense.

40K will win no questions asked, i mean just with the hordes of chaos alone, they could take out anything any of the other universes may have.
for starters you have khorne: close range they'll wipe out almost anything with their insanely powerful close range skills
then theres nurgle: they jus a festering pile of puss anything that gets within a 40 mile radious probably gonna die of infection even before they reach them.
Slaanesh: i mean fuk they enjoy pain, and "forbidden pleasure"
Tzeentch: They have magic comin out their ass hole they have so much

then you look at the things like the greater daemons of each, like the bloodthirster what a fuked up thing that is, the defiler if you can take on one of those your gonna have your hands full, the daemon prince, the list goes on.

thats not even counting the rest of them, orks their are literally millions of orks theyll jus go wave after wave, anyways im jus babbling now, so im gonna go leave....gone...

The Cobra class destroyer is considered a tiny ship. It is a km long with 80 foot long nuke torpedeos and cannons firing shells the size of a pickup truck. It is the same size as a Star Destroyer or a Galaxy class. Also, the human fleet consists, spread throughout the galaxy, over 5 million ships. The adverage ship is 4 km long, with a 10,000 man crew, 2 void shields, which are basically as strong as the Death Star shields (1st Death Star). It is armed with 400-500 plasma and projectile cannons, ranging from 120mm to house sized plasma bolts, mostly mounted broadside, 6 torpedeo tubes, over a thousand weapons on 340 turrets ranging from 50 cal to 80mm flak and 60mm missles. It carries some 160 fighters and bombers, and it engages at "close" range at 30,000 km. All others=owned.

The Cobra class destroyer is considered a tiny ship. It is a km long with 80 foot long nuke torpedeos and cannons firing shells the size of a pickup truck. It is the same size as a Star Destroyer or a Galaxy class. Also, the human fleet consists, spread throughout the galaxy, over 5 million ships. The adverage ship is 4 km long, with a 10,000 man crew, 2 void shields, which are basically as strong as the Death Star shields (1st Death Star). It is armed with 400-500 plasma and projectile cannons, ranging from 120mm to house sized plasma bolts, mostly mounted broadside, 6 torpedeo tubes, over a thousand weapons on 340 turrets ranging from 50 cal to 80mm flak and 60mm missles. It carries some 160 fighters and bombers, and it engages at "close" range at 30,000 km. All others=owned.

Fist of, a ISD is more than 1 km long. It's 1.6, and a galaxy class star ship isn't even a mile long. It's more like 700 m long (thats .7 km). The SSD is about 2.5 - 10 km long. The Sovereign SD is about 12-15 km long. The Eclipse SD is about 14-17.5 Km long. The DS 1 had a 120 km diamiter.
The DS 2 had a 160km. diameter. The galactic empire has a lot of star ships, not just the ISD's. all in all, it should be in the high millions, also spread through out the SW galaxy. A ISD may only have 72 ties, but with two or more, you could get 144+ ties out there. I think a fleet of ISD's could be a match for the Chaos hords. And if the Cobra class destroyer is as small as you say, there is no way it could hold 400-500 plasma and projectile cannons or weapons. It just isn't realistic. And a ship that small cannot have a shield as powerfull as the DS. That is also unrealistic.

Please note science *fiction.* It's hardly realistic to have a space station the size of a small moon that can blow up planets. It's not realistic to have interstellar transport in under a year. If there is a way, go tell it to NASA.

Fist of, a ISD is more than 1 km long. It's 1.6, and a galaxy class star ship isn't even a mile long. It's more like 700 m long (thats .7 km). The SSD is about 2.5 - 10 km long. The Sovereign SD is about 12-15 km long. The Eclipse SD is about 14-17.5 Km long. The DS 1 had a 120 km diamiter.
The DS 2 had a 160km. diameter. The galactic empire has a lot of star ships, not just the ISD's. all in all, it should be in the high millions, also spread through out the SW galaxy. A ISD may only have 72 ties, but with two or more, you could get 144+ ties out there. I think a fleet of ISD's could be a match for the Chaos hords. And if the Cobra class destroyer is as small as you say, there is no way it could hold 400-500 plasma and projectile cannons or weapons. It just isn't realistic. And a ship that small cannot have a shield as powerfull as the DS. That is also unrealistic.

The Executor class is actually somewhere in the nieghborhood of 18 kilometers, or eleven miles long. The Eclipse is 17.5, shorter than the Executor, but a lot thicker.

I know we had this debate already, but according to the Star Wars home website, the SSD is 12.5km long.

And you could have stupidly powerful shields on a small craft. Just take a shield projector designed for planetary defence, and adjust the field size to encircle an ISD, without altering the power requirements. Bingo, shields stronger than planetary ones on a 1.6km ship. It would probably need its own power reactor to power it, though.

Executor-class = 17.6 km
Eclipse class = 16-17.5 km but more massive than Executor
Sovereign class = 15 km
ISD = 1.6 km
DS1 = 160 km
DS2 = 900 km

40K: Has some interesting and very powerful weapons, but most people have lost the ability to create new ones. Most of the most powerful weapons are relics of the "Dark Ages".

Star Trek: Phasing shields and missiles the side of a conventional AA missile with the capacity to cause a star to nova.

Star Wars: Death Stars and super star destroyers might look cool, but something about them seems to scream "SHOOT HERE". Maybe the size.

In all, most of the 40k people haven't a prayer. The Space Marines themselves are genetically modified supermen, but stifled by dogma and doctrine so much that they lack the vital energy required to think up new stuff quickly enough. The Eldar are a dying race. Only the Orks and Tyrannids, with their instinctual "we dun know how to build it we just do" make-up might prove a long-term challenge, as they're the only people who can build new stuff at any decent speed. So I reckon 40K could provide your RP with plenty of nice hard bad guys, with perhaps the threat of the Chaos Gods, there to corrupt people and turn their technologies against them.

Between Star Wars and Star Trek, I really wouldn't know which one would be the "harder" out of the two. They both seem to be similiar in terms of technology. Star Trek has the edge with shield technology (something few ships in the Star Wars universe seem to have to any decent extent), and cloaking technology. Star Wars seems to have a lot of very huge ships and nippy little fighters though.

Now an X Wing, with a warp drive and phasing shields... that'd be one hard mutha.

Xessmithia, did you not read my post correctly?

Go here: http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/superstardestroyer/index.html

Read it. Height: 12,800m. Okay, so I said 12.5km. That was a typo, it's length is 12.8km. End of story.

Please note science *fiction.* It's hardly realistic to have a space station the size of a small moon that can blow up planets. It's not realistic to have interstellar transport in under a year. If there is a way, go tell it to NASA.

There is most definatly a way. We're just "Primative." It has been proven that you could have interstellar transport in under a year, you just need to have the right tech, and quite frankly, we don't have it... And even in Sci-fi there is a limit as to how "realistic" it is before it gets "unrealistic."

New Point: 40K Void Shields: I don't know enough about how they work, so I can't comment on them. Could someone who knows please give details on how they work, and approximate strength? Need this before going into specs on how well they'll take hits from an ISD.

Void sheilds work by projecting a distortion of normal space to warp space in a 3 foot 6 inch layer around the ship. They act as a net which bends or ignores the laws of physics, so they slow down matter and energy as it ripples and bends (check the cinimatic in Fire Warrior). Very slow moving projectiles can "break surface tension" on this liquid-like shields, but as far as I know, not very many SW or ST have weapons like that. Thing is, they can also be used as an offensive weapon, by ramming an enemy ship with them. No ST or SW ship can do that, at full speed, without huge risk to themself. The 40k ships will start bending hull a km before even touching the other ship. Then the 30 meter of armour on the prow of the cruiser with the 0.5 km ram eats it's enemy alive.

Fist of, a ISD is more than 1 km long. It's 1.6, and a galaxy class star ship isn't even a mile long. It's more like 700 m long (thats .7 km). The SSD is about 2.5 - 10 km long. The Sovereign SD is about 12-15 km long. The Eclipse SD is about 14-17.5 Km long. The DS 1 had a 120 km diamiter.
The DS 2 had a 160km. diameter. The galactic empire has a lot of star ships, not just the ISD's. all in all, it should be in the high millions, also spread through out the SW galaxy. A ISD may only have 72 ties, but with two or more, you could get 144+ ties out there. I think a fleet of ISD's could be a match for the Chaos hords. And if the Cobra class destroyer is as small as you say, there is no way it could hold 400-500 plasma and projectile cannons or weapons. It just isn't realistic. And a ship that small cannot have a shield as powerfull as the DS. That is also unrealistic.

By that time I am talking about the "larger" ships, the "normal sized" ships.

Xessmithia, did you not read my post correctly?

Go here: http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/superstardestroyer/index.html

Read it. Height: 12,800m. Okay, so I said 12.5km. That was a typo, it's length is 12.8km. End of story.

Yeah, and that site is wrong. Proper scaling puts the Executor and 11 miles or 17.6 km long. You don't have to like it.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/ssd.html#isd