NationStates Jolt Archive

Here, from a local paper in my area, brought to my attention by a friend.

There is absolutely no legitimate use for a civilian police force in a free nation to have a vehicle that is for military applications. The only purpose this can have in the hands of a civilian police force, is to help institute martial law.



Contact the Chief of Police's office, 440-992-7156, ask for Ray Mattson, and express your outrage over the police becoming militarized. This is the USA, we have police, this is not the USSR where we have the MVD.

TankArticle.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/ComMiss/TankArticle.jpg)

[Moderator Edit - Cogitation] Do NOT use IMG tags on images this large. [/modedit]

While I agree that they don’t need it … it is what it is an APC not really the “Tank” they were saying it was


• An enclosed, heavily armored combat vehicle that is armed with cannon and machine guns and moves on continuous tracks.


No real cannon …

I guess maybe they are planning to use it for swat applications like their armored truck?

I don’t know … though how they plan on using it on public streets I have no idea … me thinks that it would do insane damage to whatever road it is on


Lol and don’t forget the “We need someone with a tow hitch and a trailer”
The curb weight of a M113A1 is 21,474 pounds … that would push GVW high enough to require a C class license (Not to mention out of the two range of the pickups that they are implying with the “tow hitch” … though if I remember right might be close to fords top end towing on a 350 … and at that weight would not use a “tow hitch” you would need to go 5th wheel really )
Anyways my rant … hope you can all make sense of it

Tell that to the police who had to deal with the North Hollywood shootout.

Two men with illegally obtained and modified weapons (no, they didn't buy them from a gun store) shot up North Hollywood after a failed bank robbery.

Police were armed only with pistols. The bad guys had body armor that was impenetrable by pistol fire.

Police cars were riddled with bullets, and police were killed and wounded trying to stop these men.

This is a purchase of one vehicle. You can't really institute martial law with one vehicle.

Maybe you could make the same argument about how most police departments have a SWAT team - complete with military rifles and military body armor and military tactics. But it's only a small team, and not a huge force.

I think that small teams and small purchases are probably useful for the occasional hairy situation, and don't pose the threat of martial law.

Tell that to the police who had to deal with the North Hollywood shootout.

Two men with illegally obtained and modified weapons (no, they didn't buy them from a gun store) shot up North Hollywood after a failed bank robbery.

Police were armed only with pistols. The bad guys had body armor that was impenetrable by pistol fire.

Police cars were riddled with bullets, and police were killed and wounded trying to stop these men.

This is a purchase of one vehicle. You can't really institute martial law with one vehicle.

Maybe you could make the same argument about how most police departments have a SWAT team - complete with military rifles and military body armor and military tactics. But it's only a small team, and not a huge force.

I think that small teams and small purchases are probably useful for the occasional hairy situation, and don't pose the threat of martial law.


Though like I said before … is a steel tracked APC at 21000 pounds with a top speed of 41 mph really that useful to a department? Neither quickly deployed or cheep on fixing the roads where that beast goes (not arguing against swat teams or any of the other … just this machines specific application)

A wheeled APC would probably be better. Let a SWAT team get closer to a building before entering.

But expensive stuff. They probably bought it because it was used (a lot of used M113 around).

Tell that to the police who had to deal with the North Hollywood shootout.

Two men with illegally obtained and modified weapons (no, they didn't buy them from a gun store) shot up North Hollywood after a failed bank robbery.

Police were armed only with pistols. The bad guys had body armor that was impenetrable by pistol fire.

Police cars were riddled with bullets, and police were killed and wounded trying to stop these men.

This is a purchase of one vehicle. You can't really institute martial law with one vehicle.

Maybe you could make the same argument about how most police departments have a SWAT team - complete with military rifles and military body armor and military tactics. But it's only a small team, and not a huge force.

I think that small teams and small purchases are probably useful for the occasional hairy situation, and don't pose the threat of martial law.

Sorry its off topic but...isn't that the shoot out from a few years ago (earlyish 90's) that they based the shoot out in the film HEAT on?

A wheeled APC would probably be better. Let a SWAT team get closer to a building before entering.

But expensive stuff. They probably bought it because it was used (a lot of used M113 around).
Oh I understand … but it is just like the case of buying something just because it is on sale … you may not need it but you buy it anyways cause it is cheep

I just don’t see how they are going to be able to USE this for any real purpose irregardless of how cheep it was (not cutting into you … I have a feeling that was their logic too)

No, the movie came out first, and they got the idea from watching the movie.

Tell that to the police who had to deal with the North Hollywood shootout.

Two men with illegally obtained and modified weapons (no, they didn't buy them from a gun store) shot up North Hollywood after a failed bank robbery.

Police were armed only with pistols. The bad guys had body armor that was impenetrable by pistol fire.

Police cars were riddled with bullets, and police were killed and wounded trying to stop these men.

This is a purchase of one vehicle. You can't really institute martial law with one vehicle.

Maybe you could make the same argument about how most police departments have a SWAT team - complete with military rifles and military body armor and military tactics. But it's only a small team, and not a huge force.

I think that small teams and small purchases are probably useful for the occasional hairy situation, and don't pose the threat of martial law.

First of all, no Police were killed in North Hollywood, that is a LIE, only the two suspects died that day.

And it took SWAT over 30 minutes to get to the bank (in fast moving cars), unless police are going to patrol around in the M113, looking for problems, they're no good, it takes too long to deploy something like this.


Their weapons were legally obtained, illegally modified.




Secondly, with this APC they didn't buy it, it was given to them by the government, for free.


The thing is, 1 M113 isn't a problem, but almost every police department in NorthEastern Ohio has APCs.


SWAT teams need armored rapid moving vehicles, not lumbering slow moving APCs.

The thing is, 1 M113 isn't a problem, but almost every police department in NorthEastern Ohio has APCs

Tracked or wheeled? (I still think the tracks would be an issue)

No, the movie came out first, and they got the idea from watching the movie.

Ah fair enough, i knew it was linked somehow...i read the report a while ago, that was a tough day...

Tracked or wheeled? (I still think the tracks would be an issue)


They're all tracked, I've seen most of them up close, in person. It's a thing I do, I'm documenting the preparation for martial law in my area, taking done information about the vehicles, displacement, armaments, etc.

Martial law isn't necessary. Most people seem to follow the government's instructions.

Your neighbors will be happy to turn you in on the day martial law is declared.

You might stand a better chance living in Montana.

Martial law isn't necessary. Most people seem to follow the government's instructions.

Your neighbors will be happy to turn you in on the day martial law is declared.

You might stand a better chance living in Montana.


Obviously, which is why I'm moving before the decade is out.

You could always join the Army. That way, you would be on the winning team.

That, and you could get your own tank.

You could always join the Army. That way, you would be on the winning team.

That, and you could get your own tank.
Ive been tempted to ebay a duce and a half :) they are so cool and so cheep lol

You could always join the Army. That way, you would be on the winning team.

That, and you could get your own tank.



I already am on the winning team, an army of freedom fighters, of the same sort who saved America from the yoke of British tyranny and Indian raids, the army of patriots and freedom minded people.

I already am on the winning team, an army of freedom fighters, of the same sort who saved America from the yoke of British tyranny and Indian raids, the army of patriots and freedom minded people.
Lol why all of the sudden am I more scared of you then I am of the guys with the APC

So how are the police going to get it through the McDonalds drive-thru?

Lol why all of the sudden am I more scared of you then I am of the guys with the APC


Because you've been conditioned to turn against those who want to help you. Why do you think people often speak out on behalf of their kidnappers later on, they're traumatized or brainwashed into doing so.

So how are the police going to get it through the McDonalds drive-thru?


I think you can ask the people at Dunkin Donuts to bring the stuff out to the parking lot.

I already am on the winning team, an army of freedom fighters, of the same sort who saved America from the yoke of British tyranny and Indian raids, the army of patriots and freedom minded people.

Yeah right.

Because you've been conditioned to turn against those who want to help you. Why do you think people often speak out on behalf of their kidnappers later on, they're traumatized or brainwashed into doing so.
Naw don’t think it is that … got any other suggestions?

All this does is create a black-market for RPG's.

All this does is create a black-market for RPG's.


You better believe it does, man I tell you, it sure does.

You better believe it does, man I tell you, it sure does.

Just to remind you, you are currently living in the era of the Patriot Act.

If they use it, they will put on rubber tracks. Instead of the metal ones, since they don't tear up the asphalt :)

Just to remind you, you are currently living in the era of the Patriot Act.



"True patriots oppose the Patriot Act because true patriots stand for true patriotism and real freedom." - me

Just to remind you, you are currently living in the era of the Patriot Act.

Oh yeah!

I think its great that police forces worldwide grow more oppressive. The best way to combat terrorism and subversion is by awing your citizens with displays of military might around every corner. If people don't like it, they are traitors and should be run over with those very same tools of military might.

(well, not that an M113A1 is that impressive anyway)

If they use it, they will put on rubber tracks. Instead of the metal ones, since they don't tear up the asphalt :)
Lol cost more then the vehicle does :p

What are the tred life on a rubber track anyways :p and is it feasable to use them?

Oh yeah!

I think its great that police forces worldwide grow more oppressive. The best way to combat terrorism and subversion is by awing your citizens with displays of military might around every corner. If people don't like it, they are traitors and should be run over with those very same tools of military might.

(well, not that an M113A1 is that impressive anyway)


An M113 can easily impress, or oppress, those who have no weapons capable of stopping it. The point is the government is basically say, "Ah, so you have an Ar-15 or an Ak-47, well we're going to give the police, for free, as many APCs as they want, top that, sucker."


And we're left to wonder, "Hmmm, what can we do? Oh well, let's go watch TV and have a beer, the game's on soon!"

I'm having trouble finding the article on the Star Beacon (http://www.starbeacon.com) website, but Google has this cached image on the subject: Link (http://64.233.161.104/custom?q=cache:oG3ZJwyvGE8J:amphibious.newstrove.com/+Ashtabula+Police+armored+personnel+carrier&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

Lol cost more then the vehicle does :p

What are the tred life on a rubber track anyways :p and is it feasable to use them?

Metal tracks have rubber pads. Called "track pads".

Metal tracks have rubber pads. Called "track pads".
Yeah but he was talking about complete rubber tracks ... that’s what I was commenting on

“Not much is going to stop it,” he said.





That's what they think, just wait for criminals to start arming up with RPG-7s, it's an arms race, started by the government, like the Cold War, something with the "one-up manship", that could go on for decades.


http://www.g2mil.com/RPG.htm

The typical criminal won't be buying an RPG. Nut jobs, sure. But not your typical criminal.

That's what they think, just wait for criminals to start arming up with RPG-7s, it's an arms race, started by the government, like the Cold War, something with the "one-up manship", that could go on for decades.

On the other hand, APC's and tanks have been brought out for crowd-control beforehand, and it hasn't quite gone that far yet.

“Not much is going to stop it,” he said.

That's what they think, just wait for criminals to start arming up with RPG-7s, it's an arms race, started by the government, like the Cold War, something with the "one-up manship", that could go on for decades.


Surely the traditional way of stopping a tracked vehicle in an urban area is to ram a length or railway track or similar item between its drive wheels and the tracks?

I'm having trouble finding the article on the Star Beacon (http://www.starbeacon.com) website, but Google has this cached image on the subject: Link (http://64.233.161.104/custom?q=cache:oG3ZJwyvGE8J:amphibious.newstrove.com/+Ashtabula+Police+armored+personnel+carrier&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)

--The Democratic States of Cogitation


I'll see this gets passed along the chain of information, I've already sent it to a few buddies, they'll send it to a few more. It's a pyramid, without a scam!

I'll see this gets passed along the chain of information, I've already sent it to a few buddies, they'll send it to a few more. It's a pyramid, without a scam!
or maybe with a scam ... oh well

On the other hand, APC's and tanks have been brought out for crowd-control beforehand, and it hasn't quite gone that far yet.



http://www.infowars.net/Pages/Nov_04/111104_tanks.html


Anti-war protest in L.A. gets response with APCs


Steve Watson/Infowars.net/Indymedia | Nov 11 2004

What the heck happened in L.A. last night? A peaceful antiwar protest in Westwood got a Robocop response. Two armored tanks came to dispel the protest. It's unknown at the moment whether the protesters had permits, or what the rationale for bringing an armored response was by officials, but what kind of rationale could possibly merit this approach?

http://www.infowars.net/Pages/Nov_04/111104_tanks.html


Anti-war protest in L.A. gets response with APCs


Steve Watson/Infowars.net/Indymedia | Nov 11 2004

What the heck happened in L.A. last night? A peaceful antiwar protest in Westwood got a Robocop response. Two armored tanks came to dispel the protest. It's unknown at the moment whether the protesters had permits, or what the rationale for bringing an armored response was by officials, but what kind of rationale could possibly merit this approach?

Yup. Apparently over here, they bring out the Leopard tanks (though i've only witnessed mounted coppers charging and circling around which isn't much better)

What the heck happened in L.A. last night? A peaceful antiwar protest in Westwood got a Robocop response. Two armored tanks came to dispel the protest. It's unknown at the moment whether the protesters had permits, or what the rationale for bringing an armored response was by officials, but what kind of rationale could possibly merit this approach?

This has been standard practice in Europe for decades. Yet, the Europeans on this forum will say that they do not live in a police state (they'll say the US is a police state).

Yes, I've seen people killed by water cannon in Germany. Protesters beaten by police in the UK, France, Germany, and Poland. Armored vehicles present at all those protests (police, not army).

This has been standard practice in Europe for decades. Yet, the Europeans on this forum will say that they do not live in a police state (they'll say the US is a police state).

Yes, I've seen people killed by water cannon in Germany. Protesters beaten by police in the UK, France, Germany, and Poland. Armored vehicles present at all those protests (police, not army).

Oh, dont forget that "leftist paradise" Sweden back in '01 (I think). Saw some very nasty photos of that incident. All countries are police-states, but the more successful ones convince their populations otherwise ;)

There is absolutely no legitimate use for a civilian police force in a free nation to have a vehicle that is for military applications. The only purpose this can have in the hands of a civilian police force, is to help institute martial law.

Agreed. I find this highly disturbing and creepy.

Not only is it disturbing and creepy, it isn't that helpful. An M113 is pretty easy to stop with a single AK-47 round, as the insurgents in Iraq have figured out. They call them "purple heart boxes." I am not providing details, because I don't want to endanger the troops, but it doesn't take much. So if the idea with this thing is to match firepower, any nutcase with a good deer rifle is still ahead of the game.

Surely the traditional way of stopping a tracked vehicle in an urban area is to ram a length or railway track or similar item between its drive wheels and the tracks?
You would never get close enough to do this. Plus, those tracks aren't exactly loosely attached. It would be much harder than you think.

Here, from a local paper in my area, brought to my attention by a friend.

There is absolutely no legitimate use for a civilian police force in a free nation to have a vehicle that is for military applications. The only purpose this can have in the hands of a civilian police force, is to help institute martial law.



Contact the Chief of Police's office, 440-992-7156, ask for Ray Mattson, and express your outrage over the police becoming militarized. This is the USA, we have police, this is not the USSR where we have the MVD.

TankArticle.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/ComMiss/TankArticle.jpg)

[Moderator Edit - Cogitation] Do NOT use IMG tags on images this large. [/modedit]


they arent using these vehicles to institute martial law. I can see these vehicles coming in handy during situations that the average equipment cannot handle.

Are you against having a national gaurd too? during the LA riots the streets were blanketed with tanks and military.

they arent using these vehicles to institute martial law. I can see these vehicles coming in handy during situations that the average equipment cannot handle.

Are you against having a national gaurd too? during the LA riots the streets were blanketed with tanks and military.


During the LA riots, which I remember only too well, there was NO real police presence, well they were out there, but they did NOTHING to stop the looting, there were 12 police 1 block away from where Reginald Denny (the white trucker) got hit with a concrete block. They were strictly out there for show and to keep rioters away from the police stations.


The mayor of LA, forbid the sale of ammunition and guns during the riot, so law-abiding store owners were railroaded if they didn't already have a gun.

Many store-owners, primarily Koreans if memory serves me, who used illegal "assault" weapons to defend their stores, and were caught on tape doing so, where later identified via the tapes and fined. (the rifles were legal when they got them, but California bans certain types of guns so often it's hard to keep up)

When people riot and loot, those being attacked ought to have the right to shoot. Especially people like Reginald Denny.

During the LA riots, which I remember only too well, there was NO real police presence, well they were out there, but they did NOTHING to stop the looting, there were 12 police 1 block away from where Reginald Denny (the white trucker) got hit with a concrete block. They were strictly out there for show and to keep rioters away from the police stations.


The mayor of LA, forbid the sale of ammunition and guns during the riot, so law-abiding store owners were railroaded if they didn't already have a gun.

Many store-owners, primarily Koreans if memory serves me, who used illegal "assault" weapons to defend their stores, and were caught on tape doing so, where later identified via the tapes and fined. (the rifles were legal when they got them, but California bans certain types of guns so often it's hard to keep up)

When people riot and loot, those being attacked ought to have the right to shoot. Especially people like Reginald Denny.


then you should remember the 6pm curfew and the national gaurd being all over the place in tanks

then you should remember the 6pm curfew and the national gaurd being all over the place in tanks


People rioting and breaking the law typically don't care about curfews, if they cared about the law, they'd not be torching buildings and looting to begin with.

You know this thing is just going to sit around the back parking lot of the police station for the next decade. If they drive that bitch on a hot Summer's day those tracks are going to tear the crap out of the asphalt. The roads department is going to raise living hell with police chief every time he takes that thing out to play Patton.

Not to mention it gets less than a mile a gallon, the parts are expensive, and they'll probably never have a use for it. It's a big fat stinky white elephant.

You know this thing is just going to sit around the back parking lot of the police station for the next decade. If they drive that bitch on a hot Summer's day those tracks are going to tear the crap out of the asphalt. The roads department is going to raise living hell with police chief every time he takes that thing out to play Patton.

Not to mention it gets less than a mile a gallon, the parts are expensive, and they'll probably never have a use for it. It's a big fat stinky white elephant.




Things occur in incremental levels, the first time they use tanks to intimidate, the LAV Strykers in LA being there at anti-war protests. It gets worse, and worse, and then five years later...



http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1999/china.50/inside.china/art.overview/link.1989.tiananmen.jpg

Things occur in incremental levels, the first time they use tanks to intimidate, the LAV Strykers in LA being there at anti-war protests. It gets worse, and worse, and then five years later...



http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1999/china.50/inside.china/art.overview/link.1989.tiananmen.jpg



Dude this is freaking Ashtabula Ohio, it's like Mayberry. Bush just gave Barney Fife an APC.

I'll tell all you guys what this is for, it looks good on the books for Federal Contributions to police forces for the war on crime and the war on terror. They can write this sucker up for $500,000 easy.

Dude this is freaking Ashtabula Ohio, it's like Mayberry. Bush just gave Barney Fife an APC.

I'll tell all you guys what this is for, it looks good on the books for Federal Contributions to police forces for the war on crime and the war on terror. They can write this sucker up for $500,000 easy.

Funny you mention Mayberry, Mayberry is being militarized, as stated in the article linked below.



http://www.rutherford.org/articles/oldspeak-cops.asp

Pastore is in the minority, however. Around the nation police are grabbing military handouts like kids with toys at Christmas. Says Weber, "Between 1995 and 1997 the Department of Defense gave police departments 1.2 million pieces of military hardware, including 73 grenade launchers and 112 armored personnel carriers. The Los Angeles Police Department has acquired 600 Army surplus M-16s." While one might expect that from L.A., the militarism trend is national. "Even small-town police departments are getting into the act. The seven-officer department in Jasper, Florida, is now equipped with fully automatic M-16s."

This "militarization of Mayberry," as some have called it, is a far cry from how the founders envisioned law enforcement.

Funny you mention Mayberry, Mayberry is being militarized, as stated in the article linked below.



http://www.rutherford.org/articles/oldspeak-cops.asp

Pastore is in the minority, however. Around the nation police are grabbing military handouts like kids with toys at Christmas. Says Weber, "Between 1995 and 1997 the Department of Defense gave police departments 1.2 million pieces of military hardware, including 73 grenade launchers and 112 armored personnel carriers. The Los Angeles Police Department has acquired 600 Army surplus M-16s." While one might expect that from L.A., the militarism trend is national. "Even small-town police departments are getting into the act. The seven-officer department in Jasper, Florida, is now equipped with fully automatic M-16s."

This "militarization of Mayberry," as some have called it, is a far cry from how the founders envisioned law enforcement.


Gee they used to slack off that used beat up crap to the Reserves and Guard. It sounds impressive, but it's also expensive. The M16s will probably need new barrels and other parts. The Army tends to fire the crap out them. If the cops have never been properly trained on firing the M16 on full auto they'll probably overheat and warp the barrels, slamming one clip in after another. Not to mention it'll cost their department a small fortune in ammunition. Considering that you can buy a Romanian AK 47 for $250.00 plus postage and transfer fee, they'll probably need the firepower when and if they have the budget to get them in working order.

The Grenade launchers will be used for tear gas, and all police departments have those anyway. Like I said, the APCs are just White Elephants.

It would be better if the Federal Government gave them the latest in body armor, communications equipment, and more officers. Besides a pay raise that's what they really need.

I used to drive one of those. M113s are fun to drive.

These APCs can be stopped.

As has been said, it's not a tank it's an APC. Various configurations of APCs have become standard in police forces around the world.

That said, two reasonable objections to police with M113s. They are not well suited for either crowd control, or SWAT usage - wheeled APCs are much better. Secod, police forces (in the US) should not have military grade equipment, it is an unreasonable usage of the police to extend it to cover situations which would require it - the proper response to a situation like the NHollywood shoot out would have been to declare martial law (beyond the capabilities of the civil authorities to handle) and bring the NG to handle it. While declaring martial law is not a good thing, it is a better alternative than making the civil police into special forces. Police should not be well equiped or trained to deal with high firepower situations since it detracts from thier primary job of maintianing civil order, and make them more likely to use overwhelming force in touchy situations. Declare martial law and bring the military in if you need it ( bad thing that it is), but don't try to avoid martial law by making the police into some sort of paramilitary force. Since every state in the US has a National Guard to call on, there is no reasone for any government to need a militarized police force.

Yeah but he was talking about complete rubber tracks ... that’s what I was commenting on


I meant those track pads :) i just forgot what they where called..

I meant those track pads :) i just forgot what they where called..
Fair enough (was going to say ... fesable on something the size of a bobcat but thoes would be big tracks) though there are the tracked "tractors" out there (cat makes them) that have rubber tracks ...

Dude this is freaking Ashtabula Ohio, it's like Mayberry. Bush just gave Barney Fife an APC.

I'll tell all you guys what this is for, it looks good on the books for Federal Contributions to police forces for the war on crime and the war on terror. They can write this sucker up for $500,000 easy.
The model A1 was made in 1964 :p you could ebay one for 5 k lol

pictures are pleasant :)

http://www.z06-corvette.com/Z06-Corvette-Police-2.jpg

pictures are pleasant :)

http://www.z06-corvette.com/Z06-Corvette-Police-2.jpg
Damn wouldent want to try outrun that :D

As has been said, it's not a tank it's an APC. Various configurations of APCs have become standard in police forces around the world.

That said, two reasonable objections to police with M113s. They are not well suited for either crowd control, or SWAT usage - wheeled APCs are much better. Secod, police forces (in the US) should not have military grade equipment, it is an unreasonable usage of the police to extend it to cover situations which would require it - the proper response to a situation like the NHollywood shoot out would have been to declare martial law (beyond the capabilities of the civil authorities to handle) and bring the NG to handle it. While declaring martial law is not a good thing, it is a better alternative than making the civil police into special forces. Police should not be well equiped or trained to deal with high firepower situations since it detracts from thier primary job of maintianing civil order, and make them more likely to use overwhelming force in touchy situations. Declare martial law and bring the military in if you need it ( bad thing that it is), but don't try to avoid martial law by making the police into some sort of paramilitary force. Since every state in the US has a National Guard to call on, there is no reasone for any government to need a militarized police force.



North Hollywood, it's called a shotgun with slugs, body armor or not, they'll break the bones under the armor and probably knock the people off their feet.

Anyway, something else, 9mm carbine (Ruger PC9) put a scope on it, it's a light-weight weapon that police can use instead of the militarized M-16.

Martial law over a bank robbery is insane and I would not stand for it.

If Police can't manage a headshot, they're not training with their weapons often enough.

Martial law over a bank robbery is insane and I would not stand for it.


People in this country should not need martial law to be kept in order anyways.

If I'm not mistaken, weren't those two people on the bank robbery Mexican nationals?

People in this country should not need martial law to be kept in order anyways.

If I'm not mistaken, weren't those two people on the bank robbery Mexican nationals?


Romanian gypsy immigrants.

Damn wouldent want to try outrun that :D

If I had the right vehicle I would. I've always wanted to run from the police, just to see if I could ditch them. Never have cause I'm not interested enough to want to go to jail for it. Sound like a fun reality game on a closed circut though...

People rioting and breaking the law typically don't care about curfews, if they cared about the law, they'd not be torching buildings and looting to begin with.


it seems like you are arguing with me, but i can't quite figure out what you are arguing about. lol

pictures are pleasant :)

http://www.z06-corvette.com/Z06-Corvette-Police-2.jpg

That is one pimped out cop car. :D

Yeah, but they are idiots to buy it because they'll never need it.