NationStates Jolt Archive

Well it's not that we all didn't know this all along.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/bc/2005/001/3.8.html


The findings in numerous national polls conducted by highly respected pollsters like The Gallup Organization and The Barna Group are simply shocking. "Gallup and Barna," laments evangelical theologian Michael Horton, "hand us survey after survey demonstrating that evangelical Christians are as likely to embrace lifestyles every bit as hedonistic, materialistic, self-centered, and sexually immoral as the world in general."1 Divorce is more common among "born-again" Christians than in the general American population. Only 6 percent of evangelicals tithe. White evangelicals are the most likely people to object to neighbors of another race. Josh McDowell has pointed out that the sexual promiscuity of evangelical youth is only a little less outrageous than that of their nonevangelical peers.

Well it's not that we all didn't know this all along.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/bc/2005/001/3.8.html
I hate to be the one to spoil all your childhood illusions, but everyone has "feet of clay."

So they finally admit that their percieved hypocrisy is not just percieved.

I hate to be the one to spoil all your childhood illusions, but everyone has "feet of clay."

I have no childhood illusions, I knew thay had feet of clay and in the words of Bob Seager, "A Fire Down Below". :D

I have never heard of this "feet of clay" term before. I'm assuming it's a word for hypocrites, but do you know where it came from?

Well it's not that we all didn't know this all along.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/bc/2005/001/3.8.html
Gee, imagine that...we are human after all. Then again, I'd simply quote to you my favorite bumper sticker: Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven.

The reason you become a Christian is that you recognize your sin, and you recognize that the only way to save your soul is through the sacrifice of Jesus. Being a Christian doesn't make you sin-less, all it means is you have a lot of help as you struggle against your sin.

Gee, imagine that...we are human after all. Then again, I'd simply quote to you my favorite bumper sticker: Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven.
Now if they could only learn to forgive.

I have never heard of this "feet of clay" term before. I'm assuming it's a word for hypocrites, but do you know where it came from?The term means a fundamental weakness or fault.

Clay can crumble, so an edifice with clay feet is in danger of toppling.

The term means a fundamental weakness or fault.

Clay can crumble, so an edifice with clay feet is in danger of toppling.
I've never heard that phrase before either. The more you know.

The term means a fundamental weakness or fault.

Clay can crumble, so an edifice with clay feet is in danger of toppling.
Man is made of mist and clay, and man is faulty, therefore the symbolism of the clay is at fault.

Terra cotta pots of clay have long survived the civilizations they served.

Now if they could only learn to forgive.
Forgive what? The only ones failing to forgive anything are the Blue states...not that the Red states have anything to apologize for.

Forgive what? The only ones failing to forgive anything are the Blue states...not that the Red states have anything to apologize for.
Hahahaha!!! :)

Forgive what? The only ones failing to forgive anything are the Blue states...not that the Red states have anything to apologize for.
Falacies:
1. you imply that Red states are Christian.
2. you imply that Blue states are not.
3. you imply that this is somehow related in any way, shape or form to politics.

Gee, imagine that...we are human after all. Then again, I'd simply quote to you my favorite bumper sticker: Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven.

The reason you become a Christian is that you recognize your sin, and you recognize that the only way to save your soul is through the sacrifice of Jesus. Being a Christian doesn't make you sin-less, all it means is you have a lot of help as you struggle against your sin.
Bible Quiz:

Who said this?
“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

:)

“[…] there is nothing I find more base […]
Than these bold mountebanks, these histrios
Whose impious mummeries […]
Exploit our love of Heaven, and make jest
Of all that men think holiest and best;
These calculating souls who offer prayers
Not to their Maker, but as public wares, […]
These charlatans, I say, whose pilgrim souls
Proceed by way of Heaven, toward some earthly goals,”
Tartuffe , by Jean-Baptiste Poquelin MoliereAct I, Scene 5, 101-112

These charlatans, I say, whose pilgrim souls
Proceed by way of Heaven, toward some earthly goals
Charlatans, indeed.

Falacies:
1. you imply that Red states are Christian.
2. you imply that Blue states are not.
3. you imply that this is somehow related in any way, shape or form to politics.

Actually America is more purple with blue and red highlights.

http://www.princeton.edu/~rvdb/JAVA/election2004/

Bible Quiz:

Who said this?
“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

:)


Jesus.

Hence, why Christians believe people like Phelps guy and his GodHates this GodHates that is giving Christians a bad name.

They need to realise, that God Hates Sin. But God loves the Sinner.

They've reverted to no better than religious fanatics IMO. Where you instill hate and fear. Then how come Jesus came preaching Forgiveness and love?

Well it's not that we all didn't know this all along.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/bc/2005/001/3.8.html

Sorry. All you are proving is that evangelicals are just buying into the surrounding culture. And it's just that evangelicals are the only ones around that actually have a problem with it. At least someone is speaking out, even if the credibility is low.

Gee, imagine that...we are human after all. Then again, I'd simply quote to you my favorite bumper sticker: Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven.

The reason you become a Christian is that you recognize your sin, and you recognize that the only way to save your soul is through the sacrifice of Jesus. Being a Christian doesn't make you sin-less, all it means is you have a lot of help as you struggle against your sin.
So they don’t have to live by Jesus’ teachings … a deathbed confession is enough

Damn fuck that church stuff

Sorry. All you are proving is that evangelicals are just buying into the surrounding culture. And it's just that evangelicals are the only ones around that actually have a problem with it. At least someone is speaking out, even if the credibility is low.
ChristyanityToday has low credibility? WHy?

Sorry. All you are proving is that evangelicals are just buying into the surrounding culture. And it's just that evangelicals are the only ones around that actually have a problem with it. At least someone is speaking out, even if the credibility is low.
Actually a whole bunch of people have a problem with the vapid and shallow US culture. Muslims, Jews, Buddhist, Hindus, Mormons, Atheist, Leftist, Rightist, Hippies, the guy who does your roof...alot of people don't like where the culture is going, and alot our speaking out.

Sorry. All you are proving is that evangelicals are just buying into the surrounding culture. And it's just that evangelicals are the only ones around that actually have a problem with it. At least someone is speaking out, even if the credibility is low.
Why should they be able to convince other people to live the "path of riotousness" when they cant do it to even their petitioners

Actually a whole bunch of people have a problem with the vapid and shallow US culture. Muslims, Jews, Buddhist, Hindus, Mormons, Atheist, Leftist, Rightist, Hippies, the guy who does your roof...alot of people don't like where the culture is going, and alot our speaking out.
Like religion has done much better elsewhere :p

Hypocritical throughout their entire history

ChristyanityToday has low credibility? WHy?
Not a nonbiased news source

Not a nonbiased news source
But it is critizing the Christians? Would it be biased towards defending them?

But it is critizing the Christians? Would it be biased towards defending them?
Irregardless of which way they lean on this issue the more biased the source the more “un-trustworthy” it is … you could make the comparison to any news source from fox to stormfront to democracynow

The article is just about telling Christians to stop the double standards. Preaching one thing, doing another.

Gee, imagine that...we are human after all. Then again, I'd simply quote to you my favorite bumper sticker: Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven.

The reason you become a Christian is that you recognize your sin, and you recognize that the only way to save your soul is through the sacrifice of Jesus. Being a Christian doesn't make you sin-less, all it means is you have a lot of help as you struggle against your sin.



But then, what is a sin to one person isnt a sin to another, so they are struggling against their own system of beliefs. Nutters...

Just do what I do.

Repeat after me.

"Fuck..."

With me so far? Here comes the hard part!

..."religion"

Forgive what? The only ones failing to forgive anything are the Blue states...not that the Red states have anything to apologize for.

dont mind me... just thought i'd slip this in here... linky (www.fuckthesouth.com)... i wonder what this'll do...

*flees*

I have never heard of this "feet of clay" term before. I'm assuming it's a word for hypocrites, but do you know where it came from?

Correct me if I'm wrong (probably am, but, meh)

The original "feet of clay" thing comes from Greek (probably wrong about the country) legend. A philosopher (or a prophet) describes a giant with a head of gold, shoulders of silver, a torso of bronze, an abdomen (or thighs) of copper, legs of iron and feet of (unfired) clay.

The idea was that we start off in a golden age, then steadily degrade; to say that something has feet of clay is to say that it has degraded something savage, or that it's base/foundation is weak, and so will crumble beneath the weight of the rest.

I'd like to tell you people a story, this story has nothing at all to do with Evangelical Christians. Those who say it does are misguided and wrong. Anyway, our story begins:

There are some people in this world; people who literally say that they are "holier than thou." These people are consitently proven that, no, they are not. No matter what their ego and their teachings tell them, they are as flawed as the rest, as imperfect and prone to mistakes as all the others. They cannot justify their "holier than thou" status by pointing to their behavior proudly, indeed, they must cover that with bluster and anger if someone even mentions it.

They then resort to saying that they are forgiven, no matter what they do, no matter how awful it is nor maliciously concieved it may be. Thus, they can kill, maim, steal, cheat, philander, fornicate, covet, slander, degrade, lie, etc, as much as they want and at the end of the day they are STILL "holier than thou" This helps their case slightly, they can be the most horrible, dreadful, nasty people on the planet; but they are "forgiven" and thus everything is made right again. Their victims cannot help but agree, right?

They cannot be wrong because their misguided faith tells them that they are right no matter what they do. Especially when they doing something wrong, then they are more right than ever before. Eventually, the more wrong they do, the more righteous they are; and their whole community prides itself on the virtues of closeted evil.

Meanwhile a man and a woman live quietly, free of ill intent, free of wrong doing. They live like Adam and Eve, unaware of sin itself. They do just works and care for all. They die, and go to hell...because they are not "Holier than thou."

And all the people who are "holier than thou" go up to heaven, having killed their brothers, cheated their mothers, and slept with their sisters.

This is the story of those who are "Holier than thou." It has nothing at all to do with Evengelical Christians. Those who say so are misguided and wrong.

I'd like to tell you people a story, this story has nothing at all to do with Evangelical Christians. Those who say it does are misguided and wrong. Anyway, our story begins:

There are some people in this world; people who literally say that they are "holier than thou." These people are consitently proven that, no, they are not. No matter what their ego and their teachings tell them, they are as flawed as the rest, as imperfect and prone to mistakes as all the others. They cannot justify their "holier than thou" status by pointing to their behavior proudly, indeed, they must cover that with bluster and anger if someone even mentions it.

They then resort to saying that they are forgiven, no matter what they do, no matter how awful it is nor maliciously concieved it may be. Thus, they can kill, maim, steal, cheat, philander, fornicate, covet, slander, degrade, lie, etc, as much as they want and at the end of the day they are STILL "holier than thou" This helps their case slightly, they can be the most horrible, dreadful, nasty people on the planet; but they are "forgiven" and thus everything is made right again. Their victims cannot help but agree, right?

They cannot be wrong because their misguided faith tells them that they are right no matter what they do. Especially when they doing something wrong, then they are more right than ever before. Eventually, the more wrong they do, the more righteous they are; and their whole community prides itself on the virtues of closeted evil.

Meanwhile a man and a woman live quietly, free of ill intent, free of wrong doing. They live like Adam and Eve, unaware of sin itself. They do just works and care for all. They die, and go to hell...because they are not "Holier than thou."

And all the people who are "holier than thou" go up to heaven, having killed their brothers, cheated their mothers, and slept with their sisters.

This is the story of those who are "Holier than thou." It has nothing at all to do with Evengelical Christians. Those who say so are misguided and wrong.


All I got to say is ... thank you

The term means a fundamental weakness or fault.

Clay can crumble, so an edifice with clay feet is in danger of toppling.

At least partially true. In general though the statement comes from Daniel chapt. 2 where the image in Nebuchadnezzer's dream has feet made of mixed clay and iron. It is represented as the last stage in earth's history before Christ returns as well as a mixing of the Roman/Catholic empire with apostate protestantism. And, yes, very much in danger of toppling/being toppled.

I'd say that the info. that started this thread is sufficient evidence of the general apostacy in "christianity".

I'd like to tell you people a story, this story has nothing at all to do with Evangelical Christians. Those who say it does are misguided and wrong. Anyway, our story begins:

There are some people in this world; people who literally say that they are "holier than thou." These people are consitently proven that, no, they are not. No matter what their ego and their teachings tell them, they are as flawed as the rest, as imperfect and prone to mistakes as all the others. They cannot justify their "holier than thou" status by pointing to their behavior proudly, indeed, they must cover that with bluster and anger if someone even mentions it.

They then resort to saying that they are forgiven, no matter what they do, no matter how awful it is nor maliciously concieved it may be. Thus, they can kill, maim, steal, cheat, philander, fornicate, covet, slander, degrade, lie, etc, as much as they want and at the end of the day they are STILL "holier than thou" This helps their case slightly, they can be the most horrible, dreadful, nasty people on the planet; but they are "forgiven" and thus everything is made right again. Their victims cannot help but agree, right?

They cannot be wrong because their misguided faith tells them that they are right no matter what they do. Especially when they doing something wrong, then they are more right than ever before. Eventually, the more wrong they do, the more righteous they are; and their whole community prides itself on the virtues of closeted evil.

Meanwhile a man and a woman live quietly, free of ill intent, free of wrong doing. They live like Adam and Eve, unaware of sin itself. They do just works and care for all. They die, and go to hell...because they are not "Holier than thou."

And all the people who are "holier than thou" go up to heaven, having killed their brothers, cheated their mothers, and slept with their sisters.

This is the story of those who are "Holier than thou." It has nothing at all to do with Evengelical Christians. Those who say so are misguided and wrong.

The problem is, Christians who think or behave that way are not really Christians.

Christians are not holier than anyone and have no Biblical leg to stand on if they claim to be or act as if they are. We are all sinners and all in the same boat.

Also, being forgiven is never an excuse for commiting sin to a true Christian. The one thing that is different for a Christian is that we are called to be changed, gradually by the work of the Holy Spirit more and more into the likeness of Christ's character. A goal we cannot attain on our own and that few will attain this side of heaven. Those who go on willfully disregarding the commands to love God and our fellow man and to live that out in our lives are not really Christians. But, those of us who do our best to live according to those commands, though not perfectly, can have the peace of knowing God starts with us at our weakest, lowest, most degraded form and begins to rebuild, in us, His image. He can only work as fast as we let Him and we are just as selfish and flawed as anyone else and sometimes more than most.

is there a point to this thread?


Is your point that evangelical Christians are just as fallible and human as everyone else?

Of course we are, but we are trying to be good people. Most of us anyway, as I'm sure we have our fair share of elitest hypocrytes (who are usually the most vocal about condemning the people that don't agree with the priciples that they don't even live, ironically).

but,
"it's better to aim for the moon and miss than it is to aim for the midden heap and hit"

1. Divorce is more common among "born-again" Christians than in the general American population.
2. Only 6 percent of evangelicals tithe.
3. White evangelicals are the most likely people to object to neighbors of another race.
4. Josh McDowell has pointed out that the sexual promiscuity of evangelical youth is only a little less outrageous than that of their nonevangelical peers.



1. Show me in the bible where it says not to divorce. There are places in the bible that talk about how to get a divorce, and there are places in the bible that say a divorced person should be forgiven. Both Old and New Testaments don't say that divorce is a sin.

2. Tithing is wrong anyway. The Old Testament says that you should tithe 10 percent of what you make, and to only turn the tithe into money if you must travel a great distance to give it. It was set up to feed and take care of the Temple, not to make rich churches. There was a catholic church here in my home town that spent 3.1 million dollars remodeling, and then fired an elderly man from his maintanence job because they couldn't pay him. Corruption of money is one of the worst things to a church.

3. Prejudice is wrong, and I'm betting if you look at their upbringing they have been taught otherwise, its not just the church thats to blame. I've known many evangelicals and none of them were prejudice at all, its tailored surveys to give answers that you want.

4. Youth rebels against rules and laws. I'm betting that most youth is pretty sexually active, and finding out who does it the most hinges on who tells the truth on the servey or not.

Whats the point at bringing shame and insult to other sects of christianity, isn't that what is spoken against in the bible, assumeing you are christian. If you aren't christian, why focus on only one sect, I'm sure you can find just as many surveys about every sect of faith in the world.

I hate to be the one to spoil all your childhood illusions, but everyone has "feet of clay."

Yes, but most of us don't go walking around on ours while telling others how bad they are for having them themselves.

There is no greater sin than that of hypocracy.

1. Divorce is more common among "born-again" Christians than in the general American population.
2. Only 6 percent of evangelicals tithe.
3. White evangelicals are the most likely people to object to neighbors of another race.
4. Josh McDowell has pointed out that the sexual promiscuity of evangelical youth is only a little less outrageous than that of their nonevangelical peers.



1. Show me in the bible where it says not to divorce. There are places in the bible that talk about how to get a divorce, and there are places in the bible that say a divorced person should be forgiven. Both Old and New Testaments don't say that divorce is a sin.

2. Tithing is wrong anyway. The Old Testament says that you should tithe 10 percent of what you make, and to only turn the tithe into money if you must travel a great distance to give it. It was set up to feed and take care of the Temple, not to make rich churches. There was a catholic church here in my home town that spent 3.1 million dollars remodeling, and then fired an elderly man from his maintanence job because they couldn't pay him. Corruption of money is one of the worst things to a church.

3. Prejudice is wrong, and I'm betting if you look at their upbringing they have been taught otherwise, its not just the church thats to blame. I've known many evangelicals and none of them were prejudice at all, its tailored surveys to give answers that you want.

4. Youth rebels against rules and laws. I'm betting that most youth is pretty sexually active, and finding out who does it the most hinges on who tells the truth on the servey or not.

Whats the point at bringing shame and insult to other sects of christianity, isn't that what is spoken against in the bible, assumeing you are christian. If you aren't christian, why focus on only one sect, I'm sure you can find just as many surveys about every sect of faith in the world.

1. Divorce and or remarriage is a sin depending on the circumstances. The gospel of Matt. makes that pretty clear. The only justifeable reason for a divorce per Christ, is in the case of an extra-marital affair.

2. Tithing was ordained long before there was a "church". See the Genisis acount of Abraham paying tithe to Melchizadech. Tithing is about acknowledging that we are only stewards of that which God has given us and returning a portion of that in rememberance that it is all His to begin with, and the really cool thing about it is that He promised to bless us if we do return a faithful tithe.

3. Yes, prejudice is definitely indefensible. Period!

4. Yes, Christian youth are just as bad as anyone else. Yes, that's a very bad thing and sad commentary on the state of parenting and society in general, both Christian and non.

Yes, but most of us don't go walking around on ours while telling others how bad they are for having them themselves.

There is no greater sin than that of hypocracy.

It's not hypocracy to say that something is wrong. It's hypocracy to say that you shouldn't do something but it's okay for me to it. The reality is, it isn't okay for anyone to be doing it, but we all have done things that weren't right.

It doesn't even make me a hypocrit to say that I'm guilty of having committed adultery and that it was wrong for me to do and is wrong for anyone to do. It does mean that I have behaved reprehensively/shamefully and have no right to condemn anyone else, but I can still say that adulterous behavior is wrong. I know that from first hand experience and that is a very very bad thing IMO.

I would be a hypocrit if I said its okay for me to do that, but not for you. It's not okay for either of us.

I'd say that the info. that started this thread is sufficient evidence of the general apostacy in "christianity".

A general apostasy from the teachings of Christ did occur after the death of his apostles (and the banishment of John).
http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,844-1,00.html

the catholic church tried to hold things together, but with the loss of the organization that Christ set up when he was on the earth, the authority to receive revelation - which is the only true safeguard against apostasy, as evidenced by the many letters Paul wrote trying to stave off the apostasy that was growing in the church - was lost. So it became necessary that the gospel of Christ should be restored in its entirety and with out the corruption that entered into it.

http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,1288-1,00.html

This is what I believe:
I believe that the true gospel of Christ was restored to the earth by Joseph Smith, and that there are prophets and apostles on the earth again. That without this essential organization, with the priesthood authority to act in the name of Christ, and with Christ at the head guiding by revelation and prophesy, any church, regardless of how well meaning it's people are, will ultimately fall into apostasy.

and I testify to you, that church, and that authority are here on the earth today in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. and I do so in the name of Jesus Christ, for his spirit has made it know to me.

What I have said, may offend some, but never the less it is true, and I will not apologize for it.

Yes, but most of us don't go walking around on ours while telling others how bad they are for having them themselves.

There is no greater sin than that of hypocracy.

Yes, but guess what

1) Its a small minority of evangelicals who condem everyone else.

2) Jesus makes a point of telling people not to condem anyone.

I would just like to end with one point "Everyone's a critic"

Oh, and the feet of clay mixed with iron from Nebuchadnezzer's dream represents the kingdoms of the earth (or countries if you prefer) and the pride thereof. the stone which was cut out of the mountain without hands refers to the kingdom of God and the gospel thereof, that will break in pieces the pride of men in the last days, and roll forth until it fills the whole earth.

(mormon teaching skipped)

What I have said, may offend some, but never the less it is true, and I will not apologize for it.
I wasn't offended until this bit. Claiming to have the truth when talking about religion is a gamble at best and hypocrisy at worst. It's sad because I was enjoying the post before this part. Now, all I can do is roll my eyes.

I don't want to bash the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints but claiming to have the only truth leaves me skeptic (sp?) anywhere I see it. If you at least said "this is what I think is the truth", we could have gone along famously.

1. Divorce and or remarriage is a sin depending on the circumstances. The gospel of Matt. makes that pretty clear. The only justifeable reason for a divorce per Christ, is in the case of an extra-marital affair.

2. Tithing was ordained long before there was a "church". See the Genisis acount of Abraham paying tithe to Melchizadech. Tithing is about acknowledging that we are only stewards of that which God has given us and returning a portion of that in rememberance that it is all His to begin with, and the really cool thing about it is that He promised to bless us if we do return a faithful tithe...


1. Deuteronomy, chapter 24 speaks of divorce and remarrying, the only sin is haveing sex with your wife, getting divorced, her getting remarried having sex with her new husband, getting divorced, and trying to remarry the first husband again, because she has been tainted, so the first husband can't have her again. goes against Matt's own personal beliefs.

As for the Christ part, he also says that anyone that thinks ill thoughts of lust are guilty of adultury, so I would venture to say 99% of the populace fall under the allowable form of divorce, since by Christ no one is pure.

2. Giving a tenth unto the lord doesn't mean just money, and it never calls it a duty till later, at which point the temple is set up, and its used to feed, cloth, and maintain the temple and attendants, the Levi, I believe, who were forbidden to work other then for G-d. Though by new testament standards we are to give EVERYTHING up not just 10%.

A general apostasy from the teachings of Christ did occur after the death of his apostles (and the banishment of John).
http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,844-1,00.html

the catholic church tried to hold things together, but with the loss of the organization that Christ set up when he was on the earth, the authority to receive revelation - which is the only true safeguard against apostasy, as evidenced by the many letters Paul wrote trying to stave off the apostasy that was growing in the church - was lost. So it became necessary that the gospel of Christ should be restored in its entirety and with out the corruption that entered into it.

http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,1288-1,00.html

This is what I believe:
I believe that the true gospel of Christ was restored to the earth by Joseph Smith, and that there are prophets and apostles on the earth again. That without this essential organization, with the priesthood authority to act in the name of Christ, and with Christ at the head guiding by revelation and prophesy, any church, regardless of how well meaning it's people are, will ultimately fall into apostasy.

and I testify to you, that church, and that authority are here on the earth today in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. and I do so in the name of Jesus Christ, for his spirit has made it know to me.

What I have said, may offend some, but never the less it is true, and I will not apologize for it.

I'm not offended by what you said, but just a quick word of advice: Proselytizing Mormonism on the internet, in a thread about evangelical christianity doesn't do anything. It doesn't add to the conversation much. Fighting dogma with dogma isn't debate. Believe whatever you want, but don't expect anyone to care.

Also, Native Americans weren't white.

As for the Christ part, he also says that anyone that thinks ill thoughts of lust are guilty of adultury, so I would venture to say 99% of the populace fall under the allowable form of divorce, since by Christ no one is pure.


Depends on how you define "looking on a woman to lust after her", but your statement is somewhat accurate. Still, "what God has joined together, let no man put assunder" is pretty good advice.

As for the tithe issue, it isn't a sin not to pay tithe, but the blessings that come with the practice, when done as a recognition of God's authority in one's life and ownership of it all, are certainly worthy of note.

The problem is, Christians who think or behave that way are not really Christians.

Christians are not holier than anyone and have no Biblical leg to stand on if they claim to be or act as if they are. We are all sinners and all in the same boat.

Also, being forgiven is never an excuse for commiting sin to a true Christian. The one thing that is different for a Christian is that we are called to be changed, gradually by the work of the Holy Spirit more and more into the likeness of Christ's character. A goal we cannot attain on our own and that few will attain this side of heaven. Those who go on willfully disregarding the commands to love God and our fellow man and to live that out in our lives are not really Christians. But, those of us who do our best to live according to those commands, though not perfectly, can have the peace of knowing God starts with us at our weakest, lowest, most degraded form and begins to rebuild, in us, His image. He can only work as fast as we let Him and we are just as selfish and flawed as anyone else and sometimes more than most.

u almost make revert back to christianity.

Depends on how you define "looking on a woman to lust after her", but your statement is somewhat accurate. Still, "what God has joined together, let no man put assunder" is pretty good advice.

As for the tithe issue, it isn't a sin not to pay tithe, but the blessings that come with the practice, when done as a recognition of God's authority in one's life and ownership of it all, are certainly worthy of note.

I'm not saying that divorce should be an easy out, I think its all too often, but the disregard isn't in the divorce, its in the lacking of understanding what marriage is. People tend to think of it as a social thing, where you just do it because its the popular thing.

u almost make revert back to christianity.

In the word of Paul, "I would to God that not only you, but also all who hear me today, might become almost and altogether such as I am..." Not that I'm the example, but rather Christ and I am far from perfect in my immitation of Him. He's still working with me.

Not all of us are hypocrites.

I'm not saying that divorce should be an easy out, I think its all too often, but the disregard isn't in the divorce, its in the lacking of understanding what marriage is. People tend to think of it as a social thing, where you just do it because its the popular thing.

The truth is, the issue of marriage, IMO, is between God and the couple who chose to get married. He will judge and I'm happy to leave that to him. I do see that there is clear Biblical counsel against it, except under the worst of circumstances and shouldn't be a cop out. I did use it that way and am and always will be ashamed.

Not all of us are hypocrites.

True, but we are all sinners in need of a Savior and don't have the right to throw stones.

The truth is, the issue of marriage, IMO, is between God and the couple who chose to get married. He will judge and I'm happy to leave that to him. I do see that there is clear Biblical counsel against it, except under the worst of circumstances and shouldn't be a cop out. I did use it that way and am and always will be ashamed.

I give standpoint from my own point of view. I do not judge, nor do I see it as something we should judge upon. It is something that isn't ruled by the law of the living, but of the spirit. I just don't like to see people use it as an example of slipping from G-d, which I don't think it is.

Don't be ashamed, be forgiven. Christ knows what is in our hearts, and if you feel that you have done is wrong, and shamed yourself in your actions, then he has seen it, and forgiven it. All you have to do is ask forgiveness from the one you "copped out on" and leave it in the hands of the Lord. Christ doesn't want us to live in shame, but in the divine pride of our salvation.

The problem is, Christians who think or behave that way are not really Christians.

Christians are not holier than anyone and have no Biblical leg to stand on if they claim to be or act as if they are. We are all sinners and all in the same boat.

Also, being forgiven is never an excuse for commiting sin to a true Christian. The one thing that is different for a Christian is that we are called to be changed, gradually by the work of the Holy Spirit more and more into the likeness of Christ's character. A goal we cannot attain on our own and that few will attain this side of heaven. Those who go on willfully disregarding the commands to love God and our fellow man and to live that out in our lives are not really Christians. But, those of us who do our best to live according to those commands, though not perfectly, can have the peace of knowing God starts with us at our weakest, lowest, most degraded form and begins to rebuild, in us, His image. He can only work as fast as we let Him and we are just as selfish and flawed as anyone else and sometimes more than most.

Since when did you determine who was and wasn't a "True Christian"? Judging by your sanctimonious tone I would think I was listening to God himself.
But to me your words don't sound holy at all. They sound arrogant. They sound like the words of a person who, contrary to the Bible's teachings, has cast judgement on his fellow humans.
Please, correct me if I'm wrong. I don't want to believe that this complete stranger, of whom I know nothing more about than a screename and a loose collection of words, is an arrogant prick. I'm just decribing the person you come across as being.

Since when did you determine who was and wasn't a "True Christian"? Judging by your sanctimonious tone I would think I was listening to God himself.
But to me your words don't sound holy at all. They sound arrogant. They sound like the words of a person who, contrary to the Bible's teachings, has cast judgement on his fellow humans.
Please, correct me if I'm wrong. I don't want to believe that this complete stranger, of whom I know nothing more about than a screename and a loose collection of words, is an arrogant prick. I'm just decribing the person you come across as being.

I'm not sure why you interpreted that as sanctimonious or arrogant. The whole point of what I'm was saying is that none of us is better than another in God's eyes. We are all sinners in need of being saved by His grace. The statement about lacking true Christianity is a comment on those who claim the name but don't act with the humility and love for others that He taught. To be Christian is by definition to be Christ like, something that none of us fullfill perfectly, but those who condemn others give evidence that they are not very far along the way in their Christian journey.

That doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't acknowledge the difference between right and wrong behavior, but our love for others shouldn't be compromised in the process. Difficult to balance at times. I apologize if I sounded condemnitive, sanctimonious or arrogant.

Don't be ashamed, be forgiven. Christ knows what is in our hearts, and if you feel that you have done is wrong, and shamed yourself in your actions, then he has seen it, and forgiven it. All you have to do is ask forgiveness from the one you "copped out on" and leave it in the hands of the Lord. Christ doesn't want us to live in shame, but in the divine pride of our salvation.

I am certain that I am forgiven based on Christ's promises, however, I will always be ashamed of and remorseful for my evil behavior. It was, is and always will be wrong and evil and if I cease to acknowledge that, I place myself in a position where I am no longer repentant for my sins and dependent on Christ, which I will always be, for salvation.

bump

This discussion reminds me of something I read in a study of Thessolonains once. It was a point about faith. Faith in Jesus is not just accepting that ceritan facts are true (That he was born of a virgin, that he lived the sinless life, that he died on a cross and rose again and is going to return). It is seeing the implications of these facts and allowing those implications to influence our lives. In other words, if Jesus lead a perfect life, while we can't lead perfect lives, we can do our best and the way to do our best is to look to what Jesus said and did. Faith is not just belief, but the logical thought through of that belief.

You may be wondering "Whats that got to do with this? We know that. The point we're making is that Christians are hypocritcal" and I am saying is that true faith does not mean perfection. It means attmpting to be as close to perfection as is possible via allowing the logical concequences of cerian facts impact your life. Christians are not hypocritical if they try to acchieve but fail. Nor are they hypocritical if they encourage others to live their lives a certian way but cannot manage it themselves. As it is not their lives you should be looking at to mesure to but Jesus.

Since when did you determine who was and wasn't a "True Christian"? Judging by your sanctimonious tone I would think I was listening to God himself.
But to me your words don't sound holy at all. They sound arrogant. They sound like the words of a person who, contrary to the Bible's teachings, has cast judgement on his fellow humans.
Please, correct me if I'm wrong. I don't want to believe that this complete stranger, of whom I know nothing more about than a screename and a loose collection of words, is an arrogant prick. I'm just decribing the person you come across as being.

I believe, the point of the post was that people who do not attempt to live Christlike lives, cannot be 'christian'... because christian = christlike.

No human can be perfect, obviously - and Personal Responsibilit seems to have been merely illustrating that EVERY man is equal in sin. Even the christian is a sinner, although he tries to follow a Christlike life (this is what I understand by the 'True Christian' reference), and thus TRIES not to sin.

But, ultimately, all are flawed.

And so - even the christian shouldn't live sinfully (relying on salvation) and shouldn't judge others (because ALL are sinners).

That's how I took Personal Responsibilit's post... (although I could be wrong, and he could have meant something quite different)... and I don't see it as a bad thing, or sanctimonious or arrogant... and the "cast judgement on his fellow humans" quote makes me think you totally missed what his post was about...

So, Christians are having sex, getting divorced, etc. Shocking.

Everyone here is very intent on explaining why their dogma is correct and everyone else is wrong. Want to engage in a little healthy skepticism? Try this on for size:

Let's take it as a given Jesus was a real person and said all the things he was attrributed to have said. Leave aside his exact relationship with any diety. Boiled down and badly paraprased, his message was that we will all be better off if we treat each other well and make decisions based on principles that support the idea of cooperation, rather than pursuing naked self-interest. That we should be understanding of the weaknesses in others. That we should act out of a desire to do good for all. Is that close?

Now, I suggest that different groups have gotten hold of that simple and powerful message, and corrupted it for their own purposes, usually to enhance their own power. History is replete with examples, from Constantine using it to control the Roman Empire, to King James using it to control England, to King Henry using it to split from the oversight of Rome, to Jim Baker and his ilk to make a pretty cushy living.

With so many examples of people using Jesus' message to advance their own base interests, do you wonder why many informed people question organized religion's "facts" and "truth"? Somehow I don't think Jesus wanted us to abandon the practice of medicine, deny the theory of evolution, burn heretics at the stake, require membership in and obedience to a specific group as the only path to a good life, not use condoms, etc., etc.. I have a stong feeling these "truths", particularly the one about having to belong to and OBEY a specific group, might just have been created by people, not handed down by Jesus.

That being said, there is an "ends justify the means" argument - although I find many of the precepts of the LDS (colloquially, Mormons) to be hard to swallow, I will say most of the people I have met who follow the religion are above average in their moral character. They emphasize sacrifice for community and family rather than the common American self-indulgence, and generally raise pretty decent kids. I think there's a potential for 50's style repression of individuality, and like all organized religions that value obediance above understanding, there's the potential for abuse by those who are in power, but from what I've seen, the impact of the religion is to mold people who make above average members of our community.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

religiosity is also the second most strongly correlated factor with child and domestic abuse (right behind alcoholism), and having extremely religious parents is correlated with increased likelihood of teen pregnancy in children.

I believe, the point of the post was that people who do not attempt to live Christlike lives, cannot be 'christian'... because christian = christlike.

No human can be perfect, obviously - and Personal Responsibilit seems to have been merely illustrating that EVERY man is equal in sin. Even the christian is a sinner, although he tries to follow a Christlike life (this is what I understand by the 'True Christian' reference), and thus TRIES not to sin.

But, ultimately, all are flawed.

And so - even the christian shouldn't live sinfully (relying on salvation) and shouldn't judge others (because ALL are sinners).

That's how I took Personal Responsibilit's post... (although I could be wrong, and he could have meant something quite different)... and I don't see it as a bad thing, or sanctimonious or arrogant... and the "cast judgement on his fellow humans" quote makes me think you totally missed what his post was about...

Thanks GI, I thought I might be losing my mind there. Thank you for accurately restating my comment.

Thanks GI, I thought I might be losing my mind there. Thank you for accurately restating my comment.

I think he must have WANTED to not understand your post.

I mean, if I can 'get it'... and I'm one of the (proudly self-professed) "Godless Heathens", it can't have been THAT confusing.

That being said, there is an "ends justify the means" argument - although I find many of the precepts of the LDS (colloquially, Mormons) to be hard to swallow, I will say most of the people I have met who follow the religion are above average in their moral character. They emphasize sacrifice for community and family rather than the common American self-indulgence, and generally raise pretty decent kids.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

For the most part you are right about LDS's. Most I have met in person are good, benevolent people, but they are not immune to abuses of power.

My mom lived in a town by the name of Salmon, ID. A non-LDS but Christian owner of a gas station there was patronized by only 1/4 of the population because when they opened up for business they were told if they didn't convert to Mormonism and make regular donations to the local church that they would be boycotted by the largely LDS population.

This problem isn't specific to religion of course. Most any "group" of people develops ingroup and outgroug biases and when in postions of power tend to exploit the outgroup and show favoritism to the ingoup. Unfortunate, but reality.

I think he must have WANTED to not understand your post.

I mean, if I can 'get it'... and I'm one of the (proudly self-professed) "Godless Heathens", it can't have been THAT confusing.

In anycase, I hope it is clearer to that person now. Thanks again.

In anycase, I hope it is clearer to that person now. Thanks again.

Most welcome. :) It's not often we end up on the same side.

Most welcome. :) It's not often we end up on the same side.

Unfortunate, but true. I guess great minds don't always think alike. ;)

Unfortunate, but true. I guess great minds don't always think alike. ;)

Maybe we think alike...

We just get different answers. :)

Maybe we think alike...

We just get different answers. :)

In either case, referring to myself as a great mind probably does constitute the arrogance I was originally accused of :rolleyes: :p :D

In either case, referring to myself as a great mind probably does constitute the arrogance I was originally accused of :rolleyes: :p :D

No... got two 'outs' for you.

1) I am NOT a great mind... therefore, comparing yourself to me is modesty.

(Good, huh)

Or:

2) It is only arrogance if you can't back it up... otherwise it's just a statement of fact.

:)

No... got two 'outs' for you.

1) I am NOT a great mind... therefore, comparing yourself to me is modesty.

(Good, huh)

Or:

2) It is only arrogance if you can't back it up... otherwise it's just a statement of fact.

:)

Or: We can chose to re-define the word "great" as a non-superioristic referent. In anycase, the statement was not with intent to make myself better than anyone else, so I'm comfortable that I was not being arrogant, but it would be well nigh impossible to prove.

Or: We can chose to re-define the word "great" as a non-superioristic referent. In anycase, the statement was not with intent to make myself better than anyone else, so I'm comfortable that I was not being arrogant, but it would be well nigh impossible to prove.

Or... we could assume you meant "Great" to mean large or bloated... basically - you admitted our astounding modesty... by saying we had chubby brains.


:D

I believe, the point of the post was that people who do not attempt to live Christlike lives, cannot be 'christian'... because christian = christlike.

No human can be perfect, obviously - and Personal Responsibilit seems to have been merely illustrating that EVERY man is equal in sin. Even the christian is a sinner, although he tries to follow a Christlike life (this is what I understand by the 'True Christian' reference), and thus TRIES not to sin.

But, ultimately, all are flawed.

And so - even the christian shouldn't live sinfully (relying on salvation) and shouldn't judge others (because ALL are sinners).

That's how I took Personal Responsibilit's post... (although I could be wrong, and he could have meant something quite different)... and I don't see it as a bad thing, or sanctimonious or arrogant... and the "cast judgement on his fellow humans" quote makes me think you totally missed what his post was about...


Problem is, anyone can CLAIM to be following a Christlike life (whatever you mean by that). To base the litmus test of christianity solely on religious dogma may be great for dogmatic people such as Personal, but it really doesn't make much sense to the rest of the Christian world.

As I clearly stated, I take issue with the fact that Personal is casting judgement on who is and isn't a 'True Christian' based solely on personal conviction. I find it very offensive, as I am sure most other Christians do, that a single individual would attempt to impose their personal sect's beliefs onto the entire faith.

It's kind of like Osama saying that the Shia aren't true Muslims because they do not comform to Wahhabist views on what the true Muslim is. It is circular logic, and I reject it.

How about we let God decide who is and isn't Christian. And last time I checked, Personal wasn't God.

or since you like arithmetic so well: Personal Responsibilit != God

Problem is, anyone can CLAIM to be following a Christlike life (whatever you mean by that). To base the litmus test of christianity solely on religious dogma may be great for dogmatic people such as Personal, but it really doesn't make much sense to the rest of the Christian world.

As I clearly stated, I take issue with the fact that Personal is casting judgement on who is and isn't a 'True Christian' based solely on personal conviction. I find it very offensive, as I am sure most other Christians do, that a single individual would attempt to impose their personal sect's beliefs onto the entire faith.

It's kind of like Osama saying that the Shia aren't true Muslims because they do not comform to Wahhabist views on what the true Muslim is. It is circular logic, and I reject it.

How about we let God decide who is and isn't Christian. And last time I checked, Personal wasn't God.

or since you like arithmetic so well: Personal Responsibilit != God

A big font makes you look proud (which is a sin). It doesn't make you right.

If you don't know what a 'christlike' life would be - I don't see how you can call yourself a christian, at all. Jesus is the very epitome of Christlike, and so - the pattern for christians. If you aren't attempting to be 'like christ' (that's what I mean by Christlike), then you aren't attempting to be 'christian'.

It's not a matter of dogma - it's a matter of Christ. If you aren't a christian... well, then - you can take Jesus or leave him. But, if you CLAIM to be christian, well - Jesus is the paradigm of christian.

Personal Responsibilit isn't passing judgement on any. If you believe you are following christ, following Jesus' perfect example... and NOT relying on 'salvation' to KEEP covering your sins - then you ARE a 'True Christian'.

If you don't follow christ, if you live an unreformed life... well then, it doesn't MATTER what church you belong to, you will only ever be a church-member, but you will never be 'christian'.

God HAS decided who is christian. It is those that follow in Jesus' footsteps, and that accept Jesus' salvation, and that model their lives on Christ.

Personal Responsibilt isn't the message - just the messenger.

Problem is, anyone can CLAIM to be following a Christlike life (whatever you mean by that). To base the litmus test of christianity solely on religious dogma may be great for dogmatic people such as Personal, but it really doesn't make much sense to the rest of the Christian world.

As I clearly stated, I take issue with the fact that Personal is casting judgement on who is and isn't a 'True Christian' based solely on personal conviction. I find it very offensive, as I am sure most other Christians do, that a single individual would attempt to impose their personal sect's beliefs onto the entire faith.

It's kind of like Osama saying that the Shia aren't true Muslims because they do not comform to Wahhabist views on what the true Muslim is. It is circular logic, and I reject it.

How about we let God decide who is and isn't Christian. And last time I checked, Personal wasn't God.

or since you like arithmetic so well: Personal Responsibilit != God

Guess you were right GI.

I'm not claiming that I have the capacity to label people true or false Christians. I'm just saying that it is possible to claim to be Christian, while not actually being one due to a lack of Christ likeness. It's not my place to judge anyone. The only things I can judge are the things I can see "fruits" and even then I can only judge specific acts or actions, not a person as only God can read the heart.

Personal Responsibilt isn't the message - just the messenger.

I don't think I've ever been paid a better compliment from a heathen :p or fellow Christian for that matter.

For someone who disavows Christianity, you argue its merits well. :)

Or... we could assume you meant "Great" to mean large or bloated... basically - you admitted our astounding modesty... by saying we had chubby brains.


:D

Litterally laughing out loud at that one. Yes, that must be it, me and my fat head. :D