NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, although I'm not buying a car for a few more months, when I go out to buy one I will have about 7200 to put down and will have to finance the rest. I want a nice, crispy new 2005. I'm looking at a 2005 Pontiac Sunfire 1SC fully loaded ($20,185), a surpsingly spiffy looking Hyundai Tiburan GT V6 fully-loaded, or maybe a Chevy Cavalier or Cobalt. I would LOVE to have a Mazda Miata, but I dunno if I could manage that. :-x (although I probably will look into procuring a Miata, it'd cost me around $350 a month if I put $7000 down)

If I were you, I'd get a used Lincoln Town Car. Those are very safe, comfortable, fast, great handling, and are in my opinion, the best car out there right now.

If not, at least just buy American, it makes our economy stronger. The only non-American car listed, was a Hyundai.

I'm a 17 year old gay boi, I cannot drive a Lincoln Towncar - it's against the gay bible. (I turn 18 in a couple months and my moms business backer person said she would cosign on the loan as my "present")

Get a 407.

Your'e 17 years old, and you're buying a $20,000 car?

Wow. I thought I was a tad spoiled for not having to pay for my own clothes.

Oh, I'm also American - and the 407 is too expensive!

Buy a Japanese car, the Japanese are superior engineers

Buy a Japanese car, the Japanese are superior engineers

I wouldn't mind getting a Honda Civic Hybrid, either - but for the record, every single Japanese car I've driven handled horribly.

Buy a Japanese car, the Japanese are superior engineers

No, Germans are. German cars always have been, and always will be the best cars on this planet.

I wouldn't mind getting a Honda Civic Hybrid, either - but for the record, every single Japanese car I've driven handled horribly.


Every Japanese car I've ever been in, was uncomfortable, and inferior to American quality.

Get a Mitsubishi Evo. Hmmmm. Lovely lovely Evo.

If only my mom fucking married that one dude that proposed to her when I was like a baby. Her fucking dad told her not too because "He would have a girl in each state". The guy who proposed? Yeah, he was President of Mercedes-Benz Corporation of America. I dare say I wouldn't have any car problems then.

I wouldn't mind getting a Honda Civic Hybrid, either - but for the record, every single Japanese car I've driven handled horribly.
by handling do you mean comfort or performance?

Every Japanese car I've ever been in, was uncomfortable, and inferior to American quality.
So lexus is out the window then?

Get a Mitsubishi Evo. Hmmmm. Lovely lovely Evo.

I could get an excellent price on any Mitsubishi, I live in Bloomington/Normal, the location of the ONLY MMMNA plant. They have lots of community specials here.

So lexus is out the window then?

Lexus' annoy me, its like they are a copy of everything else.

Get a Mitsubishi Evo. Hmmmm. Lovely lovely Evo.
:D sweet got to drive my brothers the other day

So lexus is out the window then?


Yes. Compare it to an American luxury car, such as a Lincoln or Cadillac. What is better?

Go up to Canada and find a well put together real mini!

BMW or Audi would be my choice, good gars with good handing and great quality, and aslong as you get atleast a 2.5 liter motor they are great fun to drive too.

Edit:
I will buy a used BMW 2.5 or 3 liter from around 92-93, they look good, run fast, have decent comfort and good build quality:D

I could get an excellent price on any Mitsubishi, I live in Bloomington/Normal, the location of the ONLY MMMNA plant. They have lots of community specials here.


http://americanpridecouncil.org/graphics/PTBA_uncle_sam_302x425.jpg

If you are, then buy American.

Omg I totally forgot about Mini Cooper -.-;;

Everyone said my Fiat was 'gay' when I had one, but whether or not they were suggesting that it was designed for homosexuals or just using it as an insult I couldn't say. It was OK for speed, although the interior was pretty crappy and it couldn't take a corner without burrying its wheels in the arches. Though, you'll be used to that over on that side of the pond anyway.

That said, some of the latest Fords, like the Focus, are pretty good considering. I have a Fiesta that sticks to roads so much that I'm yet to find a corner it won't take at high speed. Plus it's one of the few cars I could find at an affordable price with that all-important heated windscreen. Man that's useful here in the winter.

Omg I totally forgot about Mini Cooper -.-;;
NOT THE BMW PRETENDER! The real I am. Or get a good clean shell and drop a honda civic VTEC motor in it!

Yeah, something that wouldn't be far over $300 dollars after putting a $7000 downpayment on it would be nice.

Every Japanese car I've ever been in, was uncomfortable, and inferior to American quality.
By uncomfortable I assume you mean the ride we tough as the suspension is usually quite hard, this improves cornering as is reduces body roll. ie handeling
so I guess that is subjective

By uncomfortable I assume you mean the ride we tough as the suspension is usually quite hard, this improves cornering as is reduces body roll. ie handeling
so I guess that is subjective

When I said it didn't handle well, it was uncomfortable to drive (be in), broke down twice in one week and cost a fuckin truckload of money to fix, and I just didn't like it.

When I said it didn't handle well, it was uncomfortable to drive (be in), broke down twice in one week and cost a fuckin truckload of money to fix, and I just didn't like it.
Depends what you want in a car.
Want it to last forever and be put together really well. Then Audi or Merc.
Want it to handle like no other and accelerate faster than any other production car (3.1 seconds 0-60 under 11 0-100-0). Caterham!
Economy and speed. BMW diesel or Audi Deisel.
If you want jelly on wheels that is not good at anything but not bad either buy an American car.

When I said it didn't handle well, it was uncomfortable to drive (be in), broke down twice in one week and cost a fuckin truckload of money to fix, and I just didn't like it.
each to their own, I personally would go for saftey over comfort. Breaking down could be the lower octane American petrol damaging the engines as Japanese petrol (americans read gas) is higher octane or it simply wasnt maintained there is generally a reason for a break down.

there is generally a reason for a break down.

^^^

Indeed. My mother had a Nissan for six years, and it never broke down once. The only money that needed to be spent on it was through standard maintenance. It was fairly comfortable, fairly nippy and agile but... well, it was a Primera. It had no personality. It was just... a car. Even after six years, all of us had trouble finding it on a car park.

I wouldn't mind getting a Honda Civic Hybrid, either - but for the record, every single Japanese car I've driven handled horribly.

Oh, for the record, those Hybrids aren't as fuel efficient as you think. Indeed, as I recall, Top Gear found them to be slower and less efficient than some European diesels when subjected to a practical test, rather than theory.

http://americanpridecouncil.org/graphics/PTBA_uncle_sam_302x425.jpg

If you are, then buy American.

America. A nation where the value of the planet it pollutes is less than the idea of one lousy car. But hey, don't worry about it. There's nothing you can do anyway. And it's only the price you pay for not having to walk 10 miles everyday to get your water supply, or risk the death of your children by AIDS or malaria.

America. A nation where the value of the planet it pollutes is less than the idea of one lousy car. But hey, don't worry about it. There's nothing you can do anyway. And it's only the price you pay for not having to walk 10 miles everyday to get your water supply, or risk the death of your children by AIDS or malaria.

No, I have to worry about my many friends and loved ones dieing from HIV/AIDS. It's one of the reason why I am an HIV Prevention worker, a member of the American Academy of HIV Medicine, part of the UNESCO, and on a CDC-mandated HIV Prevention and Care Management committee for the State of Illinois. One of my best friends cocktails just quit working, and he's already been on all the other anti-retrovirals. He has to wait until the new batch of meds comes out, and he could possibly die in that time. You need to learn to keep your fucking mouth shut.

^^^

Indeed. My mother had a Nissan for six years, and it never broke down once. The only money that needed to be spent on it was through standard maintenance. It was fairly comfortable, fairly nippy and agile but... well, it was a Primera. It had no personality. It was just... a car. Even after six years, all of us had trouble finding it on a car park.



Oh, for the record, those Hybrids aren't as fuel efficient as you think. Indeed, as I recall, Top Gear found them to be slower and less efficient than some European diesels when subjected to a practical test, rather than theory.

Diesel is expensive here, sometimes over 2.70 a gallon

Go up to Canada and find a well put together real mini!

I agree!

Here in Britain all our classic minis are being dishonoured by all those cretins :headbang: who decided to by German and buy a BMW 'Mini' :mp5: . It's the size of a flippin' Focus! How is that Mini?

Sir Alec Issigonis would be turning in his grave...


PS: The mini is multi-cultural, multi-sexual, multi-everything. Gay, Straight, Hippy, Businessman - the Classic Mini is cool for all!

PPS: Drop a V-Tec in one, and you'll be seeing off Viper's at the lights...

Point taken, and I'm sorry to have caused you distress, but I wasn't meaning to have a go at people infected with HIV or the work you do for those organisations. I mean the hardships suffered by the 80% of people in the world living below the poverty line, with no hope in hell of owning enough money to buy a car or any of the other things we take for granted. Just be thankful you can live in opulence and choice.

Point taken, and I'm sorry to have caused you distress, but I wasn't meaning to have a go at people infected with HIV or the work you do for those organisations. I mean the hardships suffered by the 80% of people in the world living below the poverty line, with no hope in hell of owning enough money to buy a car or any of the other things we take for granted. Just be thankful you can live in opulence and choice.

I don't live in opulence and choice, this would be the first time I can actually get something for myself. Nevertheless, I am greatful that I was born in America. One thing you shouldn't be doing is going around and saying crap like that, it's one thing to recognize that you are lucky to live in America, it is a completely different thing to make people try and live on that fact, and remember 24/7 everyone elses hardships.

you should totally get an chevy el camino! or a gmc safari...and since neither are in production anymore, you can get them cheaper! wOOt! :P

You should get something with an efficient engine (more than 30 mpg) and a catalytic converter. Yeah, they do smell a bit like eggs, but that's nothing in the scheme of reducing particulate pollution.

you should totally get an chevy el camino! or a gmc safari...and since neither are in production anymore, you can get them cheaper! wOOt! :P
If your after style find a Delorean

^^^

Indeed. My mother had a Nissan for six years, and it never broke down once. The only money that needed to be spent on it was through standard maintenance. It was fairly comfortable, fairly nippy and agile but... well, it was a Primera. It had no personality. It was just... a car. Even after six years, all of us had trouble finding it on a car park.



Oh, for the record, those Hybrids aren't as fuel efficient as you think. Indeed, as I recall, Top Gear found them to be slower and less efficient than some European diesels when subjected to a practical test, rather than theory.

My dad has had his explorer for 4 years, and its starting to have problems after about 180,000 miles. He bought it used though, and he's most likley going to give it to me.

America. A nation where the value of the planet it pollutes is less than the idea of one lousy car. But hey, don't worry about it. There's nothing you can do anyway.

Whats wrong with SUVs? They are practical and needed for people that use them for their intended purpose, mainly in snowy climates, or if they need closed cargo room.

Diesel is expensive here, sometimes over 2.70 a gallon

First off... take it from a Brit, that's not expensive :p. In fact, that probably isn't much more than we pay for a litre here :(.
Nevertheless, if a diesel uses less fuel than a petrol overall, in the long run you'll end up paying less for fuel. It's just on the odd occasion that you stop for 'gas' that you'll notice the price difference. That said, I won't ever have diesel; they stink, they seem to store all their torque up over 7,000 RPMs, and I don't like a car that sounds like a tractor. Nearly $2 per litre petrol may be, I'm sticking with it.

Whats wrong with SUVs? They are practical and needed for people that use them for their intended purpose, mainly in snowy climates, or if they need closed cargo room.

People don't mind the cars themselves. They do have a purpose. Its the fact that most people who own them don't actually need them, for anything other than the flawed belief that they are safer. It's not just an American phenomenon though. Many an angry mother can be seen taking their children five yards down the road to school every morning in a 4x4.

Whats wrong with SUVs? They are practical and needed for people that use them for their intended purpose, mainly in snowy climates, or if they need closed cargo room.
They are hardly needed for a trip to the shops.

I believe they should get taxed heavier then other vehicles as they wear the roads down worse then cars, or maybe a compremise, no parking in car parks, only on private premises? Possibly a different class of licence as they are more dangerous.

There's nothing wrong with SUVs, just that there's so bloody many of them. They are indeed practical and needed for people that use them for their intended purpose, or enclosed cargo room. Their intended purpose is not cruising to and from work alone or with your kids in the back (although the CEO of the company selling you them will tell you otherwise). And volvo estates provide good closed cargo space. But if you need to carry two wardrobes in your car instead of one, then go for the SUV over the estate car.

A Hummer. No doubt!

If you HAVE to buy something american, buy a Ford Focus, they are cool cars.
Or else if you can't have a 407, the 307 is cool as well.
If you have the money, buy a big BMW, there is no better car.

"First off... take it from a Brit, that's not expensive ."

Very, very true. To fill up your family car in the land of the free costs about $15. In the land of hope and glory, the same car costs about $75.

"First off... take it from a Brit, that's not expensive ."

Very, very true. To fill up your family car in the land of the free costs about $15. In the land of hope and glory, the same car costs about $75.

Costs about $30 to fill up the taurus. Gas gets as cheap as 1.50 at times, so i'd rather have a hybrid :D

Ok, although I'm not buying a car for a few more months, when I go out to buy one I will have about 7200 to put down and will have to finance the rest. I want a nice, crispy new 2005. I'm looking at a 2005 Pontiac Sunfire 1SC fully loaded ($20,185), a surpsingly spiffy looking Hyundai Tiburan GT V6 fully-loaded, or maybe a Chevy Cavalier or Cobalt. I would LOVE to have a Mazda Miata, but I dunno if I could manage that. :-x (although I probably will look into procuring a Miata, it'd cost me around $350 a month if I put $7000 down)
I driven the 4 of them, and they are not the same category of cars,

The Tiburon and Miata are sport cars, the Cavalier/Sunfure are shit cars.

I reallllllllly want a Miata :'( Anyone wanna give me 3000 so I can get it? :)

Japanese cars seem to never break down. I have a 1985 Toyota Pick-Up that's still running. I use it during the winter when I have to take my Firebird off the road. It's reliable, I'll give it that.

If you have the money, go for the Cobalt or Sunfire.

Doujin, what do you want in a car? Performance/handling, quality, space and room, etc?

Under 20K I think the best bet would be a Mazda 3, they come in a sedan and a 5 door hatch that looks vaguely like a PT Cruise. They are fun to drive and have plenty of pep, as well as look good (though that's a matter of opinion). Minis are fun to drive, but I think if you are 17, you should get something a little bigger, for safety, JUST IN CASE you do have an accident. The base Cooper has significantly less power than the Cooper S. Unfortunately the Cooper S is nearly 20K with no options. The Sentra Spec V and Neon SRT-4 both offer a lot of bang for your buck. The Scion tC is an awesome value, you should definitely check that out-- it's not the box on wheels Scion-- that's the xB. The Celica and the Acura RSX are also fun, quality cars, though the RSX Type-S is prob out of your price league. You could get the Civic hybrid, or even the Civic Si (or any Civic for that matter, they have 3 body styles and numerous powertrain options) (too bad we dont have the Civic Type-R here, that would be sweet!).

As far as the cars mentioned, I would stay FAR away from the Sunfire/Cavalier twins, they are utter crap. The Cobalt is the replacement for the Cavalier, and from what I've read, it's a vast improvement. Since they are about to be replaced, the resale of the Cav/Sun would take a double hit if you were to buy 1-- it would be used, as well as being the previous model. The VW's offer diesels, but VW's quality is suspect, so I would not get those either. The Miata I dont believe would be a good choice either. Yes it will be loads of fun, but you will sliding all over the roads in the snow come wintertime. I assume it will be your only car. If you get 1 of those you have to factor in the cost of snow tires and wheels as well. Plus you will only be able to carry one friend max with you. If it was a 2nd car it would be a good choice, but not as an only car in IL.

I don't know what Japanese cars you have already looked at that had the bad ride or handling. But if you are thinking of Mitsubishi, I would wait on the Eclipse, because that too is about to be replaced. Being that you are in the snow belt, you may even want to consider an Impreza (alas not a WRX :( ), since they all have 4WD. You should check out www.edmunds.com, they have a veritable treasure trove of info on cars. Hope this helps.

I think this thread needs more logical argumentation;

so lets break it down gently...

American cars, if we're talking rear wheel drive, or in particular about trucks, hands down they win. Check any consumer report site you want about functionability and longevity (the trucks that can actually do what trucks are supposed to are American, sorry asian auto builders, thats just the way it is.)

As far as front wheel drive, Ive had some experience with both American smaller front wheel drive cars, and Asian built ones. While the domestic cars seem to be a little more comfortable (unless we go high end and step into the realm of Lexus/Acura quality) it seems as far as track record for service required, or value in the long term - an Asian car is still the best bet if youre buying a well built car such as a Honda, Toyota etc. (Just watch the parts prices if you do have to fix something, this is where it can get a bit dodgy).

As far as engineering being the cream of the crop in stated European countries... maybe ten or fifteen years ago. But you better check up on the service records of some of the bigger producers now. BMW, Mercedes, and in particular Volkswagen - not getting particularly good review lately. BMW is an exception in the way that the service records are not particularly high overall, but when something goes wrong, it tends to REALLY go wrong - and BMW parts are very expensive here in North America. Watch out.

On a model for model basis, you could say that certain European cars are better than North American cars are better than Asian cars are better than European cars and so on and so forth. Its cyclic, and makes no sense to compare them on such general terms. But Ive seen a few people posting about lack of technical skill/value/quality here in North America... better take a look at the C6, this car beats the crap out of cars twice and three times its price in every performance/gas mileage/durability comparison out there. Furthermore, this car has been in the top ten of nearly every categorical "best of" list since its main framework was introduced as the C5. Thats a pretty good example of whats available here, and lets not forget that almost the same powerplant that rest between the tires in this beast motivates the gas-pot trucks the GM produces in mass numbers. Lets not localize engineering standards or skill ok.

As one last fleeting comment, I have only one thing to say to people buying Asian made small engine cars as performance based products. Pleeeeaaaasssseee!!! These cars are fun to drive, Ill give you that, and as far as an environmental choice - they do make a lot of sense. But dont start comparing these cars to REAL performance cars ok! Any car that has to rev to 7000 just to make power - is not going to win any races at lemans any time soon. So dont take your 160 horsepower Civic Sir beside me at a stoplight and rev the engine until the valve seals blow thinking that you sound intimidating because you have a plastic spoiler on the trunk that looks like you built your car from a cracker jack box. When my 64 Chevy was on the road, Id eat these little cars for breakfast - granted I couldnt beat them at the pump, but at least Im not lying to myself about it. Off the line, or on a hill theres something that people who dont know anything about cars forget about... there is no replacement for displacement... if you cant make power until the car is bleeding from revving so high how the hell are you going to get at that torque thats at the bottom end of your RPM range? Even if this becomes a question of handling, and people start to say things like "yeah, like a 67 Vette could handle like my 05 Evo III" - uh, no shit. Theres a few years of technological advancement there bub. So how about comparing that Evo to a C6? (I know, its an overused example - but this is an amazing car) Good luck beating that anywhere - this is a car that crushes the potent and much more expensive M3 SMGII in every way possible. Wait until the new Z06 comes out - why do people insist upon comparing high end foreign race cars to low end Domestic econo cars? Lets at least keep it fair.

Thats my twenty cent rant anyway ;)

(sorry, I meant to clean up a little at the end)

To condense that:
Front wheel drive compacts/small cars - go Asian, better service records, better mileage, better value off the lot for resale. Parts can be expensive, but hey, if your not having to buy as many that balances out doesnt it?

Performance - Dont sell US automakers short yet! Theres still some tricks left up their sleeves! Asian cars are fun to drive, but still lack a bit where it counts. European cars are amazing, but overpriced for the most part, and if broken cost far too much to fix.

Rear wheel drive - In particular for pickups, it seems like US manufacted goods are still the frontrunner for function here. If you just want a car that looks like a truck and doesnt stack up when it comes to payload ot towing capacity - dont feel bad about the smaller Asian trucks. Theres nothing wrong with them, they just cant do what other trucks can.

:)

Its pretty general I know, but these seem to be the current trends.

If I were you, I'd get a used Lincoln Town Car. Those are very safe, comfortable, fast, great handling, and are in my opinion, the best car out there right now.

If not, at least just buy American, it makes our economy stronger. The only non-American car listed, was a Hyundai.

I here that, my grandparents have a Town Car when I drive it, I love it. But I wouldnt be caught dead driving it if I were younger. I am a student teacher, 23 and would frankly be very embarrased to drive it around the opposite sex. But it depends on your age.

Also agree with you about buying American, not only are they just as good (some worse some better) than the foreign competition, but it boosts our econemy. The Ford Five hundred is really nice. So is the Chevy Malibu, but if you want an econo. car, try the Ford Focus for instance.

No, Germans are. German cars always have been, and always will be the best cars on this planet.

No way the Yugoslavians are! :D

http://mcdev.nolansys.dsvr.co.uk/mark/images/yug.jpg

No, Germans are. German cars always have been, and always will be the best cars on this planet.

Ok thats fine if you want to support nazis!

Same with the superior Japaneese car guy.

I've had a couple of Nissans and they're practically un-killable. I'm very hard on cars and most don't last me long. Both Nissans and my Datsun we're extremely reliable. I also like my VW Jetta a lot. It handled very well. My Audi was a piece of crap. The best deal I ever got was on a used Chevette when I was in college. It cost 250.00 dollars and never broke down in 2 1/2 years. Of course it took me like 10 minutes to get it up to 60 mph.

I think people need to start looking more to American cars, the problem was. You all know of Henry Ford, and back in 1914 the Ford dominated, this lead to American cars being the best (but mainly because there was NO competition) so the manufactureres stopped trying as hard, than out of the blue, came the Japs! With full invasion force backed up by; Toyota, Honda etc. these dominated American cars and people stopped looking at Fords and Chevys etc. But after about 25-30 yrs. American cars made a HUGE comeback, top critics and costumers say that American cars are just as good and some even better than Japaneese cars and other competition. The only problem is, US cars got a bad reputation and it will take another 5-10 years to shake that off (which is really unfair because Japaneese stuff used to SUCK than when it got better people forgot about the bad stuff). But I know my next car will be an American.

I've had a couple of Nissans and they're practically un-killable. I'm very hard on cars and most don't last me long. Both Nissans and my Datsun we're extremely reliable. I also like my VW Jetta a lot. It handled very well. My Audi was a piece of crap. The best deal I ever got was on a used Chevette when I was in college. It cost 250.00 dollars and never broke down in 2 1/2 years. Of course it took me like 10 minutes to get it up to 60 mph.

Really? you liked Datsuns? The one my dad had was awful, than they changed to Nissans. Nissans are pretty reliable cars.

Every Japanese car I've ever been in, was uncomfortable, and inferior to American quality.
American cars are terrible.
Swedish cars rock
so do Japs and Germans

Omg I totally forgot about Mini Cooper -.-;;

While those are cute to drive their not the best cars out there. I wouldnt be caught in one of those. What does one of those say about your gear?

If you want something to promote your gear try getting one of those 50's Cadillacs, if you catch my drift ;)

American cars are terrible.
Swedish cars rock
so do Japs and Germans

Were not in the 70's anymore buddy.

If your after style find a Delorean

Are you kidding? A GMC Delorean? the exact car that Doc and Marty used in Back to the future? Thats pathetic, those cars arent that nice. I hate 80's cars. They all around sucked. After style get an expensive car, Dodge Viper, Ford Gt, any of a number of German cars.

American cars are terrible.
Swedish cars rock
so do Japs and Germans

I agree on the swedish thing - a SAAB 9-5 HOT Aero would do me nicely! price though :headbang:

as for jap cars - not bad, good reliability, quality, average perfomance in general (unless you have a need for speed and want a skyline/300zx, etc)

Germans though, I am afraid you are all misled. Who made the engines for all those Messerschmitt 109s that shot down American, British, Canadian, Polish, and Aussie pilots during WW2? That's right. BMW.

So instead of a BMW - buy a Jag. Or a Saab. Or a nice Classic Mini. :D

:confused: Were not in the 70's anymore buddy.

I agree on the swedish thing - a SAAB 9-5 HOT Aero would do me nicely! price though :headbang:

as for jap cars - not bad, good reliability, quality, average perfomance in general (unless you have a need for speed and want a skyline/300zx, etc)

Germans though, I am afraid you are all misled. Who made the engines for all those Messerschmitt 109s that shot down American, British, Canadian, Polish, and Aussie pilots during WW2? That's right. BMW.

So instead of a BMW - buy a Jag. Or a Saab. Or a nice Classic Mini. :D
Saabs are cool but I like volvos better
runs in my blood

Were not in the 70's anymore buddy.
fyi
I was not alive in 70's or 80's

Are you kidding? A GMC Delorean? the exact car that Doc and Marty used in Back to the future? Thats pathetic, those cars arent that nice. I hate 80's cars. They all around sucked. After style get an expensive car, Dodge Viper, Ford Gt, any of a number of German cars.

Delorean.

Made in Ireland/Britain/USA, so it's bound to be a pile of sh*te. It was made from cardboard and sticky-back plastic (not literally, but almost). Build quality was absolutely pants. And the engine? Renault V6 - not exactly the speediest thing around...

Saying that - what a car. You won't find anything else that looks that radical and unique. If you don't want to be part of the crowd, buy a Delorean.

I think you are forgetting how this thread started. The guy can't afford a Viper, Corvette or Mercedes, nor is he in Europe.

As far as the Tiburon, it's a decent enough car, I would be hesitant about buying a Korean car though. I'd suggest finding some people on the net that have one and ask them their first-hand experience with it. The Focus is a fun to drive car, but had a boatload of recalls not long ago. If the problems have been truly fixed, I would suggest that, otherwise, I'd avoid it. Nissans are excellent cars, and so are Hondas and Toyotas. If quality is paramount, you'd do well to pick one of those. Sentras have a few engine choices, but only one body style.

Its your first car. For god's sake, buy used. Do not, I repeat, do not, do not, do not, do not, do not, do not, do not buy a new car. Cut your price in half, or at least lope 5 grand off, and buy a late 90s - 2002 Miata if you like them so much.

Ok thats fine if you want to support nazis!

Same with the superior Japaneese car guy.

Germans are not Nazis. And if I recall correctly, Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, and killed more American soliders, and more civillians.

I here that, my grandparents have a Town Car when I drive it, I love it. But I wouldnt be caught dead driving it if I were younger. I am a student teacher, 23 and would frankly be very embarrased to drive it around the opposite sex. But it depends on your age.

Also agree with you about buying American, not only are they just as good (some worse some better) than the foreign competition, but it boosts our econemy. The Ford Five hundred is really nice. So is the Chevy Malibu, but if you want an econo. car, try the Ford Focus for instance.


I'm not into the "cool" thing, I'd rather drive a Town Car than a sports car. And if a girl didn't like it, that I had class, and drove a classy car, rather then a car resembling something that a rapper would drive, then I wouldn't date her.

I'm not into the "cool" thing, I'd rather drive a Town Car than a sports car. And if a girl didn't like it, that I had class, and drove a classy car, rather then a car resembling something that a rapper would drive, then I wouldn't date her.

That you'd rather drive a town car than a sports car? No, thats just abnormal.

I'm a 17 year old gay boi, I cannot drive a Lincoln Towncar - it's against the gay bible. (I turn 18 in a couple months and my moms business backer person said she would cosign on the loan as my "present")

Miata is definetly the car for you no doubt.

Hell, how about a Yugo? Do they still make those? Just think ... you could be the very first one on your block to own one ... maybe in the entire STATE! :D

I'm not into the "cool" thing, I'd rather drive a Town Car than a sports car. And if a girl didn't like it, that I had class, and drove a classy car, rather then a car resembling something that a rapper would drive, then I wouldn't date her.
Linoln Town cars are pimp cars, so I don't know how adrift you are from rapper cars, really. It's the car they buy before they get signed and buy a Bentley.

Old Town Cars are for Bingo Pimps. Old men who go to singles bingo.

I talked a buddy of mine into buying a VW GTI VR6 after pointing out that it topped a BMW on the track in a side by side comparison so I could live vicariously through him (I ain't buying a new car ANY time soon). He was a sales rep for a music distrubuter and drove all over the damn place and the car never gave him grief, was tight and fast and a blast to drive. I should say is, he still has it. I love the GTI.

For 20,000 grand it's a hard call.

If you live near-well I don't know where these places are but good ol' Willie Nelson started distributing bio-diesel through a chain of stations who's name I can't remember, (its called bio-Willie, how cool is that?) so if you really wanted to leave a smaller foot print and you live near where there is one of those places any diesel engine can run on bio-diesel. For 20,000 your not going to get a zippy diesel, but the europeans that are making zippy diesels are keeping them to themselves anyway....

I think you are forgetting how this thread started. The guy can't afford a Viper, Corvette or Mercedes, nor is he in Europe.

As far as the Tiburon, it's a decent enough car, I would be hesitant about buying a Korean car though. I'd suggest finding some people on the net that have one and ask them their first-hand experience with it. The Focus is a fun to drive car, but had a boatload of recalls not long ago. If the problems have been truly fixed, I would suggest that, otherwise, I'd avoid it. Nissans are excellent cars, and so are Hondas and Toyotas. If quality is paramount, you'd do well to pick one of those. Sentras have a few engine choices, but only one body style.

My friend had a Tiburon, and after seeing his maintennance records Id shy away from owning one. As far as a Focus, Id still stay away from domestic FWD econo cars - they seem to much worse track records than imports in this category. Mazda's dont have the best reputation where Im from either, so Id recommend looking into some rating on that little Miata if thats really what you want. The Honda's and Toyota's seem to really be the industry front runners in this field. They also have the distinct advantage of being more popular - which makes the imported parts much cheaper since they are brought in by bigger volume (compared to other imports). Ive driven the wheels off of my current car, a 1994 Honda Accord, and at 450,000k its still tip top with relatively low maintennance costs. Find me a Cavalier, Sunfire, or Focus thats been on the road that long and still runs as well - Im telling you it wont happen. The key here of course is taking care of your vehicle, but you get the point.

If you were inclined to get a relatively simple rear wheel drive domestic, youd have the same luck. They last forever too, if you take care of them. Some of the more exotic breeds, like the Cadillacs etc. have too many computer controlled components which have been known to cause problems in their old age as connections wear down etc. Try to avoid over complicated designs, simple always lasts the longest. My father still has and drives regularly, the pride of his fleet - a 1970 3/4 ton Chevrolet Cutom Cab. This trucks odie has turned over so many times we lost count of the official mileage (seriously, this truck has over 400,000 miles on it!) and with no more work into it than a mild cam replacement (smallblocks love their cam-lobes dont they!) some new springs to go with it and a new timing chain. The engine really should be rebuilt, but the thing runs like a dream regardless. Thanks to a fresh coat of paint every ten years, the truck looks like it just rolled off the showroom floor - and let me tell you its been used! Theres something to be said about the rock solid build quality of these vehicles - and its something that for the most part, remains a constant today. I know this isnt what youre looking for, Im just tired of hearing these people bash American made vehicles just because its popular to do so. I challenge anyone here to go into the BC forests, and find anyone using a 'yota or a mazda as a dedicated work truck where the truck actually has to do something. I guarantee you if you're onto a solid operation it will be filled with Duramax's, Cummin's, and though im not a fan myself... Powerstrokes.

Linoln Town cars are pimp cars, so I don't know how adrift you are from rapper cars, really. It's the car they buy before they get signed and buy a Bentley.


No they aren't. They are nothing like the cars with stupid rims and that retarded shit.

In my humble opinion.
I'd say for someone your age. ( I'm only 15,but whatever )

A Used Honda Civic, maybe 1999 or 2000.

My dad owned a Civic from 1985 to 1999 and he never had any problems with it.

And he got another civic in 1999 and never had a single problem with it.

Are you kidding? A GMC Delorean?
Yes I was kidding :D
mmm gull wing doors :)

And if I recall correctly, Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, and killed more American soliders, and more civillians.ahhh yes, America also nuked Japan.. twice, what is your point? I think these points should be left to historians if we are going to move forward. They dont really belong in a car thread.



You can buy my old 88 Celica off me hehehe

Take a look at a SVT Focus, handles well and drives well also. Isn't balls out fast but can hold its own. Miatas' are alot of fun to drive, especially the newest generation, but only have two seats.

I wouldn't mind getting a Honda Civic Hybrid, either - but for the record, every single Japanese car I've driven handled horribly.


Do not get a hybrid. Wait until you can see if any hybrid's batteries are going to last more than 7 years. If they do not last, the hybrid's depreciation is going to make life less fun.

Well I know I am late ... but god damn the colbalt drives awsome ... not much of a small car guy but I loved every minuit of it :)

My fiancee and I rented a 2005 Subaru Legacy for a trip up to Lake Erie for New Year's, and that was an awesome car. It handled really well and was really comfortable, even if my fiancee never let me drive the damn thing. It also switches between manual and automatic transmission (but no clutch...what's the point if there's no clutch?) I don't know how expensive it is, but I think it's worth looking into since I thought it was a pretty nice car.

My fiancee and I rented a 2005 Subaru Legacy for a trip up to Lake Erie for New Year's, and that was an awesome car. It handled really well and was really comfortable, even if my fiancee never let me drive the damn thing. It also switches between manual and automatic transmission (but no clutch...what's the point if there's no clutch?) I don't know how expensive it is, but I think it's worth looking into since I thought it was a pretty nice car.
I dont get the advantage either of a "fake" manual ... the advantages of manuals were easy to replace and cheep ... so manufacture and mantinance costs ... but the "side shifters" are even more complicated and expensive then auto's ... so where is the advantage?

How much is the Lotus Elise in US?

-----------------------------------------------

Support Malaysian Cars! Proton and Perodua!!

They look awful, perform awful, you'd wish someone mow you off the road if you drive one of these.

http://www.topgear.com/jsp/individualRoadTest.jsp?carType=new&mCode=D4&rCode=A6&mDesc=Proton&rDesc=Impian&roadTestNumber=01.html

I dont get the advantage either of a "fake" manual ... the advantages of manuals were easy to replace and cheep ... so manufacture and mantinance costs ... but the "side shifters" are even more complicated and expensive then auto's ... so where is the advantage?

I couldn't understand that, but hell specs on the cars I've been looking at listed manuals as having 2 or so miles per gallon more than automatics. Besides that, they make it a lot more fun to drive :D

Dreamy....

http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/images/HelloKittyTRFinalsm.jpg

A remote-control car. With working headlights. You could install a little camera and take it out on joyrides.

Whee!

Why are is the Cavalier and Sunfire crap?

Aston Martin Vanquish. ;) :D

Buy a Honda Civic, spend $150,000-$250,000 customizing it, and enter it into illegal street races.

Or vintage yellow Baracuda convertable. Drive it while wearing Don Johnson suits.

Get a classy sorta Range Rover.

No they aren't. They are nothing like the cars with stupid rims and that retarded shit.
http://lowridermagazine.com/features/0406lrm_redwine04_s.jpg
Yo, Huggy Bear! Where Starsky & Hutch at?

No one answered my question about the Sunfire / Cavalier.

And I'm also looking at the 2005 Mustang V6 Premium... it's sexxee. If only it had a sunroof.

After reading through this thread I've learned two things. There alot of people here who know nothing about cars and the rest are so hung up on their market fav's that they automatically disregard the rest on the industry.

Doujin:
If you are honestly interested in getting a good car for your $20K make a list of ten that you are interested in. Go test drive them. Take notes after the test drives and make your decision off of those.

I'm 27 years old and have owned 7 different cars. I race in my spare time, both on the track and on industrial roads, (yes illegally,) and I used to be a transfer driver for Hertz rental cars. Transfer drivers will get a car at one rental shop and drive it to another city to another rental shop, then bring one back. Needless to say I've driven more vehicals then most people in their 60's. Driving is my life when I'm not at work.
I currently own an '04 Subaru Imprezza WRX STi. One of the nicest cars I've ever driven as it meets all my performance needs, is comfortable, and looks good if you're into the aggresive sport sedan look. I regularly take down '98 - '04 vettes with it, (I've yet to race an '05,) and very few cars do as well in the twisties while maintaining high power. Oh yeah, and I can drive it in winter without having to worry about rear wheel kick out or babying a $90K investment.

I'll give you a short list of cars I can suggest that would fit into your price range.

Japanese Imports:
Honda Civic Si, its a hatchback. If you want a coupe get the DX with the street edition ad-ons since they look decent. Biggest con is the soggy suspension. I know cause I traded my old '02 SiR in for my Scoobie.

Toyota Corolla XRS. Its got good performance for the gas milage, it looks alright, and they are durable. Biggest con, Toyota while being very reliable has a rep for being your grandparents dealership.

Nissans are near bullet proof cars but they are a little more expensive. The Sentra SER Spec V is a good car, perticularly with the Brembo brake package. It is however a 4 door sport sedan. I like 'em, you may not.

Mazda 3, hatchback or coupe. Both very highly rated on reliability by Motor Trend and excelent safety ratings while having decent performance all around.
Very few cons against them. The seats are a little loose for my tastes, but I prefer racing seats like my Sparcos.

Acura RSX Type S. Acura is a division of Honda, in Japan there is no Acura at all. The RSX here is in fact the Honda Integra over there. It has a better power plant then the Civic Si/SiR due to a couple of technical restrictions in the Civics. Its less expensive usually, faster, more stylish, and has a better suspension. It loses out on the unattractive plastic interior like many imports and domestic sport compacts.

Hyundai Tiburon. This is really the only Hyundai worth buying though I have had some fun in an Elantra GT before. This nicest things about these is that they are affordable and the new ones with the 6 speed transmissions are using alot of Nissan parts in them and Nissan partially owns the company. Hence boosting they're reliability once you know their secrets. The con is that it is still a Korean car and while they are WAY better then they were 10 years ago they are still trying to catch up to Japan in overall quality.

Mitsubishi and Subaru don't make cars that are in your range very often, but if you want to look at some find a slightly older Subaru Imprezza, a Lancer Rally edition, or a used Lancer Evolution. You make get lucky and find a gem.

Domestics:

Chevy Cobalt, it replaces the Cavalier and fixes most of the problems the last Cav's had. There weren't many to say the least. Its a new car though and its usually good to wait 4 years for a new vehical to truely be tested out by other owners.

Pontiac Sunfire, any model as its just cosmetic and comfort options now. All of the them come with Chevy's Ecotech engine which is a highly reliable engine. The GT has a slightly better suspension but otherwise its just things like if you want a sunroof that makes the difference. The only major con is that the Sunfire is going out of production so the resale will take a bigger kick on top of it being a domestic car.

Ford Focus. These things seem to be hit or miss. I've heard many people say they love them, but I also know a few people who've had nothing but problems with them. I don't care for them or many Fords for that matter other then the new Stangs. They are often called belly button cars here, because everyone seems to have one.

Dodge Neon SRT-4. This car is a true powerhouse when it comes to sport compacts. Tears up the road from the factory with awesome power and handling. The only thing bad about them is the poor layout of the interior, especially for the shifter and uncomfortable seats. The best description for this car is that its like a female body builder. Its a Neon, so it is not attractive, but watch out if it decides to go after you cause it'll take you down and eat you.

Euro Imports:

Most of them are simply out of your price range and are difficult to get serviced. You can pick up older BMW's for a good price that were traded in by people who change up cars every 65,000 miles.
VW's however are excellent choices if you can get a deal on one. I'd heavily suggest a Jetta or GTI.
The TDI or Turbo Diesel is actually a sound choice as they have good power, reliability and are usually cheaper to run.
I'd avoid most of the other major Euro brands like Fiat, Puegot, or Skoda simply because of servicing issues.

If you want to look into used cars however, you can get older Mustangs at a decent price if you're into those, a used Toyota Celica from '98 and up can be bought for a steal as well.

What car should I get?

A Yugo. :rolleyes: :D :rolleyes:

I couldn't understand that, but hell specs on the cars I've been looking at listed manuals as having 2 or so miles per gallon more than automatics. Besides that, they make it a lot more fun to drive :D

Indeed, you get more of a feeling of 'control' with manuals. I've driven automatics and... well, they were useful in traffic jams, where you're stopping and starting, but other than that they just take away from the experience. Even those paddle things aren't exactly wonderful.

Indeed, you get more of a feeling of 'control' with manuals. I've driven automatics and... well, they were useful in traffic jams, where you're stopping and starting, but other than that they just take away from the experience. Even those paddle things aren't exactly wonderful.Yeah, there's nothing like driving a stick.

But paying for clutch replacement sucks.

Everything has it's price.

I want a nice, crispy new 2005.

I've owned more cars than I can count. I'd strongly urge you to test drive a new Acura RSX. I just bought a new Type S for my son. For me, the ride is certainly not like a Caddy, but the RSX is great fun. The price is absolutely reasonable for the level of performance, and quality finish.

Get the Tiberon, it's definately the best car for the price.

Or get a used Honda CRX and use the rest to restore it and pay for go-fast parts.

I bought an SE 2litre version nearly two years ago -- they're fantastic value for money. We considered the Toyota Celica, but the standard fit-out wasn't nearly as good; the Coupe (they're just called "Coupe" in Britain[1]) comes with leather interior, CD, air-con and cruise control as standard for same price as an unextra-d Celica which doesn't. In fact the only extra I had fitted was parking sensors.

It's not a screamingly powerful car (Honda get about a third more power out of their 2 litre engine, for example), but it's plenty fast enough for British roads. It's got good road holding (Porsche designed suspension, I understand). It's not incredibly hard, but it's firm enough you can feel what the wheels are doing properly. It's not "whisper quiet" inside, but the other half can sleep in the passenger seat while we're doing high-speed motorway trips.

It understeers on fast corners (not surprising for a front engine, front drive car) but then unloads the back and slides it out. It doesn't give you a lot of notice of this. You go round the corner on rails, on rails, on rails... in the ditch. There's lots and lots of grip, you just don't get a lot of warning when you run out. The V6 gives the impression of being overpowered. Everytime I've been to the garage, they've had V6s in being repaired after someone's crashed them.

It will do 140 mph without any complaining. I'm supplying no further details to that story...

It's even pretty good fuelwise. Motorway cruising chews up miles, but still results in about 27mpg (there is an "instantaneous" mpg meter. Which is frankly useless...). The trip computer is.. interesting. It stops at about 40 miles of petrol left and starts flashing to say "feed me". At the point you need to know how many miles fuel there is left --- the display is going "feed me... feed me..." And there is STILL the "little fuel pump which lights up" light as well. And they start saying "feed me!" at different times...

The flaws are things like that; things you think "what???". The sunroof controls and the interior light controls are right next to each other; it's a bit easy in the dark and rain to accidentally open the window and pour water over the map instead of light. There's a button to turn OFF the courtesy lights which are supposed to come on when you open the doors -- Why???

The manual cautions you that it's possible to kill passengers by slamming the boot while they're in the back seat. Huh??? The back seats are completely vestigial. You're not going to get anyone in there of sensible size.. even kids are going to feel cramped. Four up, you're going to have to breath in turn.

The big engineering flaw appears to be the alarm system. It kept going off. We took it back and they said "oh yeah. More duff sensors" and replaced them. It's had two services, two new tyres and no other technical traumas.


They're fun cars, go test drive one.


[1] Which leads to the interesting circumstance that my sister and I both drive a car called "Coupe" -- she's got a purple Fiat Coupe...

After reading through this thread I've learned two things. There alot of people here who know nothing about cars and the rest are so hung up on their market fav's that they automatically disregard the rest on the industry.

Doujin:
If you are honestly interested in getting a good car for your $20K make a list of ten that you are interested in. Go test drive them. Take notes after the test drives and make your decision off of those.

I'm 27 years old and have owned 7 different cars. I race in my spare time, both on the track and on industrial roads, (yes illegally,) and I used to be a transfer driver for Hertz rental cars. Transfer drivers will get a car at one rental shop and drive it to another city to another rental shop, then bring one back. Needless to say I've driven more vehicals then most people in their 60's. Driving is my life when I'm not at work.
I currently own an '04 Subaru Imprezza WRX STi. One of the nicest cars I've ever driven as it meets all my performance needs, is comfortable, and looks good if you're into the aggresive sport sedan look. I regularly take down '98 - '04 vettes with it, (I've yet to race an '05,) and very few cars do as well in the twisties while maintaining high power. Oh yeah, and I can drive it in winter without having to worry about rear wheel kick out or babying a $90K investment.

I'll give you a short list of cars I can suggest that would fit into your price range.

Japanese Imports:
Honda Civic Si, its a hatchback. If you want a coupe get the DX with the street edition ad-ons since they look decent. Biggest con is the soggy suspension. I know cause I traded my old '02 SiR in for my Scoobie.

Toyota Corolla XRS. Its got good performance for the gas milage, it looks alright, and they are durable. Biggest con, Toyota while being very reliable has a rep for being your grandparents dealership.

Nissans are near bullet proof cars but they are a little more expensive. The Sentra SER Spec V is a good car, perticularly with the Brembo brake package. It is however a 4 door sport sedan. I like 'em, you may not.

Mazda 3, hatchback or coupe. Both very highly rated on reliability by Motor Trend and excelent safety ratings while having decent performance all around.
Very few cons against them. The seats are a little loose for my tastes, but I prefer racing seats like my Sparcos.

Acura RSX Type S. Acura is a division of Honda, in Japan there is no Acura at all. The RSX here is in fact the Honda Integra over there. It has a better power plant then the Civic Si/SiR due to a couple of technical restrictions in the Civics. Its less expensive usually, faster, more stylish, and has a better suspension. It loses out on the unattractive plastic interior like many imports and domestic sport compacts.

Hyundai Tiburon. This is really the only Hyundai worth buying though I have had some fun in an Elantra GT before. This nicest things about these is that they are affordable and the new ones with the 6 speed transmissions are using alot of Nissan parts in them and Nissan partially owns the company. Hence boosting they're reliability once you know their secrets. The con is that it is still a Korean car and while they are WAY better then they were 10 years ago they are still trying to catch up to Japan in overall quality.

Mitsubishi and Subaru don't make cars that are in your range very often, but if you want to look at some find a slightly older Subaru Imprezza, a Lancer Rally edition, or a used Lancer Evolution. You make get lucky and find a gem.

Domestics:

Chevy Cobalt, it replaces the Cavalier and fixes most of the problems the last Cav's had. There weren't many to say the least. Its a new car though and its usually good to wait 4 years for a new vehical to truely be tested out by other owners.

Pontiac Sunfire, any model as its just cosmetic and comfort options now. All of the them come with Chevy's Ecotech engine which is a highly reliable engine. The GT has a slightly better suspension but otherwise its just things like if you want a sunroof that makes the difference. The only major con is that the Sunfire is going out of production so the resale will take a bigger kick on top of it being a domestic car.

Ford Focus. These things seem to be hit or miss. I've heard many people say they love them, but I also know a few people who've had nothing but problems with them. I don't care for them or many Fords for that matter other then the new Stangs. They are often called belly button cars here, because everyone seems to have one.

Dodge Neon SRT-4. This car is a true powerhouse when it comes to sport compacts. Tears up the road from the factory with awesome power and handling. The only thing bad about them is the poor layout of the interior, especially for the shifter and uncomfortable seats. The best description for this car is that its like a female body builder. Its a Neon, so it is not attractive, but watch out if it decides to go after you cause it'll take you down and eat you.

Euro Imports:

Most of them are simply out of your price range and are difficult to get serviced. You can pick up older BMW's for a good price that were traded in by people who change up cars every 65,000 miles.
VW's however are excellent choices if you can get a deal on one. I'd heavily suggest a Jetta or GTI.
The TDI or Turbo Diesel is actually a sound choice as they have good power, reliability and are usually cheaper to run.
I'd avoid most of the other major Euro brands like Fiat, Puegot, or Skoda simply because of servicing issues.

If you want to look into used cars however, you can get older Mustangs at a decent price if you're into those, a used Toyota Celica from '98 and up can be bought for a steal as well.
Some pretty good advice here

That depends - for what purpose you buy the car and what you want to do with the car.

Some people who think they need a car, list so many things they want the car for, that in fact they are looking for a bicycle.

Ok, although I'm not buying a car for a few more months, when I go out to buy one I will have about 7200 to put down and will have to finance the rest. I want a nice, crispy new 2005. I'm looking at a 2005 Pontiac Sunfire 1SC fully loaded ($20,185), a surpsingly spiffy looking Hyundai Tiburan GT V6 fully-loaded, or maybe a Chevy Cavalier or Cobalt. I would LOVE to have a Mazda Miata, but I dunno if I could manage that. :-x (although I probably will look into procuring a Miata, it'd cost me around $350 a month if I put $7000 down)

If this is your first car, or if you aren't particularly handy with repairs, look at the certified cars at used car dealers. They are a couple years old, but, depending on the dealer, reconditioned to look very new. We bought a VW at the end of last year and it had a 2 year, 24k mile warantee that covers just about everything I can think of.

Another place to look are credit union sales. They usually offer deals with rental companies that are pretty good. If you aren't in a credit union, find one to join.

Last, get familiar with the April issue of Consumer Reports. That's where they review and summarized just about everything for the past 5 years.

For long term durability, you can't go wrong with a Honda or a Toyota. They are pretty well made. If you buy a one or two year old car, you are letting someone else pay for the bulk of the depreciation. Don't fall in love with the first car you see. Be willing to walk out. These things are just machines and there will always be another just as nice, but for a better price.

I know that Americans want American cars, well many do.
I would recomend to you to take a look at the following.
Volvo
Volks Wagen (VW)
Toyota

If you want I can give you a list of the kind of cars they make that would best meet your needs. Just let me know.

How much is the Lotus Elise in US?

-----------------------------------------------

Support Malaysian Cars! Proton and Perodua!!

They look awful, perform awful, you'd wish someone mow you off the road if you drive one of these.

http://www.topgear.com/jsp/individualRoadTest.jsp?carType=new&mCode=D4&rCode=A6&mDesc=Proton&rDesc=Impian&roadTestNumber=01.html
Now you're talking. I'm too tall though, all I see is the top pillar of the wind screen.

as long as anything isn't over $25,000.

as long as anything isn't over $25,000.
Out of the list the colbalt was my fav to drive (does not hurt that it us DAMN cheep) about 17k new

But not saying the others are bad cars ... I like most of ur list just that would be my pick

I never really understood buying new cars. But then I guess if nobody did it, there wouldn't be any used cars out there.

I never really understood buying new cars. But then I guess if nobody did it, there wouldn't be any used cars out there.
Yeah I buy used too honestly ... but I gave new price to give relitive pricing (they are brand new so not many used ones out there but once there are some if they START at 16,800 by the time they are slightly used they will be down in the 9-10 range)

Everyone said my Fiat was 'gay' when I had one, but whether or not they were suggesting that it was designed for homosexuals or just using it as an insult I couldn't say. It was OK for speed, although the interior was pretty crappy and it couldn't take a corner without burrying its wheels in the arches. Though, you'll be used to that over on that side of the pond anyway.

That said, some of the latest Fords, like the Focus, are pretty good considering. I have a Fiesta that sticks to roads so much that I'm yet to find a corner it won't take at high speed. Plus it's one of the few cars I could find at an affordable price with that all-important heated windscreen. Man that's useful here in the winter.

Ya do like the Focuses, my aunt has one an its a fairly good car. Subaru Imprezas corner really well - stick to the road like glue!

http://americanpridecouncil.org/graphics/PTBA_uncle_sam_302x425.jpg

If you are, then buy American.If you are what you Buy...then you likely are 95% Chinese.

Me? Yes I shop at Wal-Mart...and I do not feel Chinese at all.

Cars and Electronis? I want Quality
German/Japanese/Swedih/American whatever.

Ok, although I'm not buying a car for a few more months, when I go out to buy one I will have about 7200 to put down and will have to finance the rest. I want a nice, crispy new 2005. I'm looking at a 2005 Pontiac Sunfire 1SC fully loaded ($20,185), a surpsingly spiffy looking Hyundai Tiburan GT V6 fully-loaded, or maybe a Chevy Cavalier or Cobalt. I would LOVE to have a Mazda Miata, but I dunno if I could manage that. :-x (although I probably will look into procuring a Miata, it'd cost me around $350 a month if I put $7000 down)

Ah, looking to buy new eh? Just remember that when you buy new, you're the one taking the major depreciation hit the minute you drive it off the lot, American, Japanese or other :headbang: You do have the option of seeing what the dealer has available in the way of demonstrators, this can be a good way to get a car with more options than you could normally afford in your price range.

Looking at your listing of choices you seem to have two very different types of cars in mind. The Chevy Cavelier/Pontiac Sunfire twins have the advantage of a low selling price with a reasonable amount of goodies in them as this their last year of production, however the resale value of these cars generally falls faster than if you were to jump off the CN Tower, not a consideration if you plan on driving the car til it drops, but something to keep in mind.

The Tiburan is a nice looking car, but the fact that Hyundai has extended their basic warrantee in Canada to 5 years/100,000km on basically the entire car leads me to believe that they still have some quality issues that they need to address.

Going with the Chevy Cobalt means that you'll be an unpaid beta tester for GM, because without fail the first model year of any all new GM model is plauged with glitches and bugs, most of the mildly annoying variety but there can be serious ones, are you willing to take that chance when you're the one plunking down $20K?

In terms of small cars I'd recommend? Toyota and Honda have their small cars, the prices are a bit higher but their resale value tends to remain higher and if reasonable care is taken care of them they will last a good long time (My boss just traded in a '93 Accord Sedan for example with 400,000km on the clock, nothing done to it except routine maintenance.)

Unfortunately I can't even drive a small car (My current rig being a '95 Olds Ciera) so I can't give you any personal experience :(

10 Year/100,000 Mile Powertrain Protection,
5 Year/60,000 Mile Bumper-to-Bumper,
5 Year/Unlimited Miles 24-hour
Roadside Assistance

^^ so what the hell does that mean?

10 Year/100,000 Mile Powertrain Protection,
5 Year/60,000 Mile Bumper-to-Bumper,
5 Year/Unlimited Miles 24-hour
Roadside Assistance

^^ so what the hell does that mean?

It means the car is under warranty against powertrain failure (engine through transmission) for either 10 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first. This is a warranty against breakdown due to poor workmanship or manufacturer error, not a wreck or if you do something to it yourself. Bumper-to-bumper does the same for all the non-drivetrain elements, but for half the time. The roadside assistance thing just means you don't need AAA for five years.

And, @UpwardThrust:

And they don't even really have to be used. If dealer certified don't float your boat, you can save a chunk of change buying a factory-fresh 2004 from the dealer. I don't really understand the "got to be a 2005" mentality. Unless you're buying a new car every year, you're going to be driving last year's model before long anyway.

Why are is the Cavalier and Sunfire crap?
No one answered my question about the Sunfire / Cavalier.

And I'm also looking at the 2005 Mustang V6 Premium... it's sexxee. If only it had a sunroof.
Suscribe!
It will save you a lot of headaches...and Trips to the Repair shop...and money of course.

http://consumerreports.org/main/content/detail_auto.jsp?CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=25035&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=25031&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=333137&bmUID=1106072392095

Suscribe!
It will save you a lot of headaches...and Trips to the Repair shop...and money of course.

http://consumerreports.org/main/content/detail_auto.jsp?CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=25035&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=25031&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=333137&bmUID=1106072392095

will do when I get a credit card :p

If you are what you Buy...then you likely are 95% Chinese.

Me? Yes I shop at Wal-Mart...and I do not feel Chinese at all.

Cars and Electronis? I want Quality
German/Japanese/Swedih/American whatever.

Based on quantity, I'm about 65% American.

Based on value, I'm about 95% American.

I don't go to Wal Mart, nor does my father allow me to go there with him anymore after the last "incident".

ahhh yes, America also nuked Japan.. twice, what is your point? I think these points should be left to historians if we are going to move forward. They dont really belong in a car thread.



You can buy my old 88 Celica off me hehehe


Yes, but Japan killed more Americans than we killed when we used the Atomic weapons. I refuse to forget that.

Hey Doujin, long time no see. I'm curious, how is the Internet business going?

Either way when it comes to the car, I'd go for the cheaper car if you're going new. I wouldn't want to finance too much since the worst thing you can do is go into debt. Interest rates are low now so that's in your favor, but either way auto loans aren't good when you also have student loans ahead.

The Tiburon is a cool-looking car, but I see you live in Illinois. Don't do it. They don't handle snow well. A friend of mine had lived in AZ and bought one, but when she came back to the midwest, she could hardly get in and out of her driveway when there was snow.

The new cavalier's are kinda junky looking in my opinion...I bought a new car in August, and my dad wanted me to cavalier, and I held my ground.(I ended up buying a 2005 toyota corolla personally).

The cobalt is really cute. That one will get my vote of the cars you listed.

Hey Doujin, long time no see. I'm curious, how is the Internet business going?

Either way when it comes to the car, I'd go for the cheaper car if you're going new. I wouldn't want to finance too much since the worst thing you can do is go into debt. Interest rates are low now so that's in your favor, but either way auto loans aren't good when you also have student loans ahead.

I'm banking on scholarships, and the fact that the States Attorney is going to be taking my dad to court for failure to pay medical bills, and in that motion he is going to toss in an order for him to pay 1/3 of my college tuition. :-p

I'm banking on scholarships, and the fact that the States Attorney is going to be taking my dad to court for failure to pay medical bills, and in that motion he is going to toss in an order for him to pay 1/3 of my college tuition. :-p
Sound like you are set for college, but car debt is still not a good thinig to have. I'd suggest that you get a good car, but buy used until you graduate. I'm getting by on a 10 year old Saab and it's running great.'

BTW, are you going to go through with your internet business, I mean you had a business plan and all.

I'm a stickler on Toyota or Honda cars. They're inexpensiivie, easy to maintain, reliable, and very comfortable. Most also have good mileage.
My grandma is a faithful Lexus customer, and while they are the best Toyota brand by far, I don't know if you can afford it. So I'd stick with the regular Toyota brand if you're on a budget.

Yeah....I get awesome mileage on my Corolla. :)

I'm really leaning to the Hyundai Tiburon GT V6 Special Edition (2004)

They are cool cars, I like them a lot. Just don't say I didn't warn you when you are stuck in a snowbank somewhere! :p

Hyundais aren't bad. They are cheap and you can't beat the warranty.

I'm a stickler on Toyota or Honda cars. They're inexpensiivie, easy to maintain, reliable, and very comfortable. Most also have good mileage.
My grandma is a faithful Lexus customer, and while they are the best Toyota brand by far, I don't know if you can afford it. So I'd stick with the regular Toyota brand if you're on a budget.

If you buy a Japanese car, you're less patriotic than I am.

If you buy a Japanese car, you're less patriotic than I am.
So?

Japanese Cars have proven they are built better than most american cars.

And If I was buying a Car I would want the best there is. Which is german.

But in this guys case a German car is to expensive, so a Japanese car is the next best one. Toyota or Honda, Nissian is an Excelent choice to, according to my Grandpa they handle very very well.

So?

Japanese Cars have proven they are built better than most american cars.

And If I was buying a Car I would want the best there is. Which is german.

But in this guys case a German car is to expensive, so a Japanese car is the next best one. Toyota or Honda, Nissian is an Excelent choice to, according to my Grandpa they handle very very well.
Best? I beleive toyota and honda followed closly by kia are toping the market for reliability (my family has had horrible trouble with 2 different BMW's)

If you buy a Japanese car, you're less patriotic than I am.
Who cares?
and thought we were based upon the idea of capatalizim ... if so I am folowing thoes ideals more then you are.
Does that make me less patriotic?

GM is Great but talk closely with the dealer or visit the GM sites they are offering many 0% interest loans & with $7200 down & 0% interest you could afford to look a little above what you want. the savings is good. Its a buyers market so get what you want & shop the dealers. Car salesmen are tuff on people & need to be abused some to give u the deal u want, Remember its your hardearned cash they will be taking.

As for the car try to be considerate of fuel eco, & reliability. Having been a mechanic for 34 years I strongly recommend most any GM vehicle. But also advise u stay very far away from any FORD product! I have worked on either & always found GM support & Parts to be exceptional! On the other Hand Ford will always say we have most of what u want but some of the parts are on national back order.

NOTE: Most Jap cars are made here also Honda I had many but noticed that the craftman ship droped considerably once the started coming from US plants. Jap Quality control Was great till they were made in US plants.

PLS dont Rush Shop & Hard! :D
Good Luch my Friend!
Lord VTG

GM is Great but talk closely with the dealer or visit the GM sites they are offering many 0% interest loans & with $7200 down & 0% interest you could afford to look a little above what you want. the savings is good. Its a buyers market so get what you want & shop the dealers. Car salesmen are tuff on people & need to be abused some to give u the deal u want, Remember its your hardearned cash they will be taking.

As for the car try to be considerate of fuel eco, & reliability. Having been a mechanic for 34 years I strongly recommend most any GM vehicle. But also advise u stay very far away from any FORD product! I have worked on either & always found GM support & Parts to be exceptional! On the other Hand Ford will always say we have most of what u want but some of the parts are on national back order.

NOTE: Most Jap cars are made here also Honda I had many but noticed that the craftman ship droped considerably once the started coming from US plants. Jap Quality control Was great till they were made in US plants.

PLS dont Rush Shop & Hard! :D
Good Luch my Friend!
Lord VTG

I can testify to that. While I don't know much about cars, I've had several tours of the MMMNA plant here in Normal, and from the conversations I've had with people who worked in Chassis and other areas, the way they build the Eclipse and others is just terrible.

If you buy a Japanese car, you're less patriotic than I am.

Kahta, I'm not feeling very patriotic to a country who seemingly hates who I am :p

What car should you get?
I think you should refrain from purchasing a car, and buy a flying refrigerator box.

To be serious, I have no idea about which cars are good or not good.

They are cool cars, I like them a lot. Just don't say I didn't warn you when you are stuck in a snowbank somewhere! :p

A snowbank? We have those in Bloomington? -confuzzled-

We have a really good road cleaning crew, gets the roads nice and drivable (because State Farm workers have to be able to get in and out of State Farm Plaza and the other huge corporate buildings around here - seeing as it was started in Bloomington and Bloomington is it's headquarters... and State Farm does own half the town :p)

With that, I live at my moms salon.. any snow comes and we have this really nice guy come and clean it off once it reaches 1", and he comes back every other hour to make sure its clean without us having to pay him anything, he's really cool.

Besides, isn't the Tiburon front wheel drive?

A snowbank? We have those in Bloomington? -confuzzled-

We have a really good road cleaning crew, gets the roads nice and drivable (because State Farm workers have to be able to get in and out of State Farm Plaza and the other huge corporate buildings around here - seeing as it was started in Bloomington and Bloomington is it's headquarters... and State Farm does own half the town :p)

With that, I live at my moms salon.. any snow comes and we have this really nice guy come and clean it off once it reaches 1", and he comes back every other hour to make sure its clean without us having to pay him anything, he's really cool.

Besides, isn't the Tiburon front wheel drive?

Yes, the Tiburon is front wheel drive, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the cars weight distribution and handling characteristics are meant for snowy conditions. As I recall the Tiburon is set up to be lower to the ground in keeping with its sporty image. This is normally fine if you drive mostly on bare or wet pavement or even well plowed streets. Get off the beaten track however and you'll find the Tiburon set up a liability for driving.

Also remember that cars featuring front wheel drive have the drive wheels doing everything steering, driving, braking, in addition to having the majority of the weight in the front of the car. Sort of a "Jack of all trades, master of none" situation. If your area tends to get lots of snow or has sloppy road conditions, you may want to look into a car that has traction control or a more "average" setup.

Kahta, I'm not feeling very patriotic to a country who seemingly hates who I am :p

If you don't feel loyalty to this country, and the ideals it was founded on, you can head for the door.

Buy a Honda. Nothing beats a good japanese car!

Obviously you don't like the ideals this country is founded on, because you can't even respect my right to have my own opinion. Hey, I love America - but I feel nothing for the majority of people who would like to see me without the same rights they have. Until Bush was elected, I planned on becoming a psychiatrist for the Navy.. but then he was elected, and then I came out - and now I wouldn't be let in the Navy even if they wanted me.

If you don't feel loyalty to this country, and the ideals it was founded on, you can head for the door.
THE most un-American thing you could possibly say.

Kahta,

You are an idiot.

This thread was based on which car he should get for $20K or less, not how much he should kiss government ass as one of you so called "patriots."

My proof that you are an idiot, simple. Almost every Japanese car company and alot of European ones are OWNED by American companies. For instance:
Mazda is a branch of Ford as are a few European brands.
Toyota is owned in part by Chevy
Mitsubishi has long been a part of the Dodge family which is all part of the Daimler/Chrysler group.
Nissan which besides owning a chunk of Hyundai is also in partnership with GMC.

The only true stand alone Japanese companies anymore are Honda and Subaru. The vast majority of Honda's production, close to 70%, is in the US which employs thousands of American workers and keeps the delicate US economy going. The exceptions are the models that are only available in Japan and the ep3 chassis Civic which is entirely made in England for some reason.
Subaru still keeps their production in Japan for the most part, but thats also why they are such high quality cars too. They have very strict design and assembly standards.

So if want to be a patriot, buy anything but a Subaru, and maybe a Yugo.
Better yet, buy what you like the most and ignore the facists.

My Dad has a Hyundai XG-350 and that car was built in Tennessee.

Kahta,

You are an idiot.

This thread was based on which car he should get for $20K or less, not how much he should kiss government ass as one of you so called "patriots."

My proof that you are an idiot, simple. Almost every Japanese car company and alot of European ones are OWNED by American companies. For instance:
Mazda is a branch of Ford as are a few European brands.
Toyota is owned in part by Chevy
Mitsubishi has long been a part of the Dodge family which is all part of the Daimler/Chrysler group.
Nissan which besides owning a chunk of Hyundai is also in partnership with GMC.

The only true stand alone Japanese companies anymore are Honda and Subaru. The vast majority of Honda's production, close to 70%, is in the US which employs thousands of American workers and keeps the delicate US economy going. The exceptions are the models that are only available in Japan and the ep3 chassis Civic which is entirely made in England for some reason.
Subaru still keeps their production in Japan for the most part, but thats also why they are such high quality cars too. They have very strict design and assembly standards.

So if want to be a patriot, buy anything but a Subaru, and maybe a Yugo.
Better yet, buy what you like the most and ignore the facists.
Subaru is part of the GM brand, that's how the WRX wagon wound up as a SAAB.

Subaru is part of the GM brand, that's how the WRX wagon wound up as a SAAB.
You're talking about the 9-2X I believe. My Dad test drove one and will be getting one in a few years. I drive his old Saab 900SE. I love the Saab and it is nice to have it American owned. I can confirm SUbaru is owned by GM.

Subaru is part of the GM brand, that's how the WRX wagon wound up as a SAAB.

Ahh, thank you. So that just leaves Honda.
Learn something new everyday. :)

How about the '05 Mustang. Or the Chevy Cobalt?

The only thing I would say about your list is to question why you are absolutely set on a new vehicle. The moment you sign the paperwork your car devalues by about 20%, and for the same money and with often the same financing deals you could get yourself a lot more car for the same money if you are willing to look at demos and fleet returns.


I only ever bought one new car, and it was really not worth the price hike. Within three months you have the exact same car you would have had had you bought a demo in the first place, but you tossed away $5,000 for the priviledge of saying that you had it first.

That being said, I've had three Pontiacs with the 3.8 litre engine, and I must say that this is a VERY reliable powerplant. The same for the Nissan 3 litre V6. I had a Maxima up to just under 300,000 miles. The car was falling apart, but the powertrain was still smooth as silk.

Other than that - go with whatever turns your crank and fits your budget. But after you have it down to a couple of possible models then stop by the bookstore and glance through the Consumer's Car Guide to check them out. You might discover something that sways your decision.

Finally once you have a couple of models that you are sure you would be happy with, take the one that seems most comfortable to you if you plan to do any distance driving. Diferent manufacturers use diferent definitions of the "average" body shape from which they decide on seat dimensions and the ratio of distances for placements of the wheels, pedals, etc. GM, and Nissan seats fit me perfectly, but I have never sat in a Volkswagon that didn't cause me back discomfort inside of 15 minutes.


I've had nearly 20 cars in my life, and regardless of the style on the outside - it's how you feel when seated inside that is going to be critical if you are hitting the highway.

Get a fully loaded Dodge Durango, but a 2003 rather than those crappy looking newer ones.

Get a fully loaded Dodge Durango, but a 2003 rather than those crappy looking newer ones.
But the new ones are HEMI-POWERED!!!!!

you can still get a 5.9L v-8 in it

I have a 2004 mazda 6, and I love it. (although its my wifes car) Its quick and handles very nice. I have the V-6 and the 5 speed sporttronic trany. Its worth looking into.

get a hsv gts only 64,000 new zealand dollars which is like 36,000 us dollars they fly like the wind and will beat the living crap out of a hummer

get a hsv gts only 64,000 new zealand dollars which is like 36,000 us dollars they fly like the wind and will beat the living crap out of a hummer
An Aussie car? you nutter

Get yerself a Smart car,as it's cheap,small n very economical.

If I was to waste alot of coin on a vehicle,it would be a Harley.

Peace

Check out a Mazada 6.

or if you cant afford the Tiburon/Miata...try this one

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/sixcms/media.php/20/scionvorn_150.jpg

Obviously you don't like the ideals this country is founded on, because you can't even respect my right to have my own opinion. Hey, I love America - but I feel nothing for the majority of people who would like to see me without the same rights they have. Until Bush was elected, I planned on becoming a psychiatrist for the Navy.. but then he was elected, and then I came out - and now I wouldn't be let in the Navy even if they wanted me.

No, I stand up for the ideals of this country, and globalism was NOT one of them. Intolerance was not one of them either, but when people would rather give their money away to Asians, than Americans, then I become intolerent.

THE most un-American thing you could possibly say.

Because I'm using the first ammendment and ninth ammendment rights?

Kahta,

You are an idiot.

This thread was based on which car he should get for $20K or less, not how much he should kiss government ass as one of you so called "patriots."

My proof that you are an idiot, simple. Almost every Japanese car company and alot of European ones are OWNED by American companies. For instance:
Mazda is a branch of Ford as are a few European brands.
Toyota is owned in part by Chevy
Mitsubishi has long been a part of the Dodge family which is all part of the Daimler/Chrysler group.
Nissan which besides owning a chunk of Hyundai is also in partnership with GMC.

The only true stand alone Japanese companies anymore are Honda and Subaru. The vast majority of Honda's production, close to 70%, is in the US which employs thousands of American workers and keeps the delicate US economy going. The exceptions are the models that are only available in Japan and the ep3 chassis Civic which is entirely made in England for some reason.
Subaru still keeps their production in Japan for the most part, but thats also why they are such high quality cars too. They have very strict design and assembly standards.


Brands owned by General Motors
Buick
Cadillac
Chevrolet
GMC
HUMMER
Oldsmobile
Pontiac
Saab
Saturn
GM Certified Used
GM Fleet
GM Mobility
GM Defense
Holden
Opel
Vauxhall
GM Network - Fiat
GM Network - Fuji/Subaru
GM Network - Isuzu
GM Network - Suzuki

Ford Brands
Ford
Lincoln
Mercury
Mazda
Volvo
Jaguar
Land Rover
Aston Martin


Diamer Chrysler Brands
Maybach
Mercedes-Benz
Dodge
Chrysler
Jeep
Mercedes-Benz


I don't think you should be calling me the idiot, you're the one that said Honda keeps the delicate American economy going. The American economy was stronger before these japanese pieces of shit came into the US, and we still had manufacturing. I don't buy your, or anyone else's "globalism is good" bullshit, because its not. All it does is take the money where people work hard for it (USA), and where people live off the welfare communist state (China), or the brutal state (Japan), or the violent state (Korea).

My money stays where the best people live. America.

Because I'm using the first ammendment and ninth ammendment rights?
No, slugger. Because you're responding to someone else using them by telling them to leave. Founded on the notion that not only do we have the right to criticize, but that it is our duty. "Love it or leave it" goes against that foundation.

No, slugger. Because you're responding to someone else using them by telling them to leave. Founded on the notion that not only do we have the right to criticize, but that it is our duty. "Love it or leave it" goes against that foundation.
heyKahtawhatdoyousayaboutthat?

I don't think you should be calling me the idiot, you're the one that said Honda keeps the delicate American economy going. The American economy was stronger before these japanese pieces of shit came into the US, and we still had manufacturing. I don't buy your, or anyone else's "globalism is good" bullshit, because its not. All it does is take the money where people work hard for it (USA), and where people live off the welfare communist state (China), or the brutal state (Japan), or the violent state (Korea).

My money stays where the best people live. America.
How it Japan " Brutal "?

And you have not given anyone a reason why Japanese cars are shit.

Last times I checked, in the past 10 years Asian car makers have had a better track record than American Made Brands.

How it Japan " Brutal "?

And you have not given anyone a reason why Japanese cars are shit.

Last times I checked, in the past 10 years Asian car makers have had a better track record than American Made Brands.

Bataan death march (http://history.acusd.edu/gen/st/~ehimchak/death_march.html)

other war crimes (http://ideaworx.com/slatewiper/slatelinks.htm)

Better Documentation (http://vikingphoenix.com/public/rongstad/military/warcrimes/warcrimes.htm)

heyKahtawhatdoyousayaboutthat?

Hey, guess what? I can read and I replied.

No, slugger. Because you're responding to someone else using them by telling them to leave. Founded on the notion that not only do we have the right to criticize, but that it is our duty. "Love it or leave it" goes against that foundation.

Care to tell me what the 9th ammendment says?

Bataan death march (http://history.acusd.edu/gen/st/~ehimchak/death_march.html)

other war crimes (http://ideaworx.com/slatewiper/slatelinks.htm)

Better Documentation (http://vikingphoenix.com/public/rongstad/military/warcrimes/warcrimes.htm)
That was in the past.

Now tell me why Asian cars are so shitty if they consistantly beat American cars !

That was in the past.

Now tell me why Asian cars are so shitty if they consistantly beat American cars !


If you want a more dangerous car, than buy an Asian car. If you want a safe car, but less economical car, buy American. I don't really care about the quality of Asian cars, because I'll never drive one. If you buy a car because you can't afford maitenance for any other kind, then you don't budget your money the right way.

I admit that some Asian Brands are complete shit.
But the same goes with some american brands.

The new Nissians and Hondas have Crash Test Ratings that are just as good as American cars.

'64 Chevrolet Impala SS with a 409cid. V8. That's what I'm hoping for.

'64 Chevrolet Impala SS with a 409cid. V8. That's what I'm hoping for.

http://www.azclassics.com/

You can find some pretty NICE classics there, as the name suggests.

The new Nissians and Hondas have Crash Test Ratings that are just as good as American cars.

They are made of weaker materials, that crash tests don't pick up.

They are made of weaker materials, that crash tests don't pick up.
Quite true, foreign cars are made lighter and in a high speed impact with higher forces than those tested (government tests at 35 mph) the Japanese cars are dangerous at higher speeds. I mean I was a very bad fatal accident in Naples, Florida last year. A Nissan Altima got T-boned by a Dodge Intrepid on US-41. It was really ugly. The Dodge was going 50 mph. It shouldn't have been fatal, but the Altima's side collapsed. The impact even snapped the front axel. The impact was on the passenger side BTW, and it was the driver who got killed. He was wearing a seat belt.

Then why do they still perform just as good.

If they used weaker steel, then they would not performe as well.

You defy all logic.

Then why do they still perform just as good.

If they used weaker steel, then they would not performe as well.

You defy all logic.
The weaker steel doesn't become a major factor until you get to higher speeds. The government tests 35 mph, but no more.

Care to tell me what the 9th ammendment says?
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be
construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be
construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

That means that the constitution is not an exclusive list of rights.

Then why do they still perform just as good.

If they used weaker steel, then they would not performe as well.

You defy all logic.


The engine is still as strong, the tests are at low speeds, where the weaker steel makes better crumple zones.

Quite true, foreign cars are made lighter and in a high speed impact with higher forces than those tested (government tests at 35 mph) the Japanese cars are dangerous at higher speeds. I mean I was a very bad fatal accident in Naples, Florida last year. A Nissan Altima got T-boned by a Dodge Intrepid on US-41. It was really ugly. The Dodge was going 50 mph. It shouldn't have been fatal, but the Altima's side collapsed. The impact even snapped the front axel. The impact was on the passenger side BTW, and it was the driver who got killed. He was wearing a seat belt.

Car accidents in Florida are always very bad because people pick up to high speeds on the roads, stop at traffic lights, go back up to 65, and stop again.

That means that the constitution is not an exclusive list of rights.
You make an excellent english to english translator.

Perhaps you are using the 1947 ruling in The United Public Workers vs. Mitchell which concluded:
The right claimed as
inviolate may be stated as the right of a citizen to act as a party
official or worker to further his own political views.
and as such you where advancing your political view that buying foriegn cars was treasonous and that if we didn't like it we should leave-
except, that also protects his rights to decide not buy domestic. The core difference is that he was not offering the only other option to you as leaving. It is the last part that goes against the principles that built the foundation.

So while your drawn out Socratic civics lesson has been fun, it does not change what I said.

If I were you, I would get a Ferrari Marennallo spyder, but I'm not. Sooooo... cheese :p

Bataan death march (http://history.acusd.edu/gen/st/~ehimchak/death_march.html)

other war crimes (http://ideaworx.com/slatewiper/slatelinks.htm)

Better Documentation (http://vikingphoenix.com/public/rongstad/military/warcrimes/warcrimes.htm)
I think you will find that American history rivels pretty much every other country in the mayhem stats. Believe me Americans can not take any moral ground with their history.

Congratulations you have almost earnt the ignore cannon which ive never had to use before

I don't think you should be calling me the idiot, you're the one that said Honda keeps the delicate American economy going. The American economy was stronger before these japanese pieces of shit came into the US, and we still had manufacturing. I don't buy your, or anyone else's "globalism is good" bullshit, because its not. All it does is take the money where people work hard for it (USA), and where people live off the welfare communist state (China), or the brutal state (Japan), or the violent state (Korea).

My money stays where the best people live. America.


Ok, I won't call you an idiot, I'll call you a facist instead, though I still believe idiot applies.
Honda does help keep the American economy going. It invests in America and gives thousands of Amercans jobs that the government couldn't possibly replace. I never once said globalism is good dumb ass. I never claimed it was. I did however point out that foreign companies that invest here is a good thing because it boosts employment and keeps money here that would have shipped elsewhere.
China isn't communist, its socialist. Pretty much the same thing however. You have yet to prove Japan is brutal. All your links are from WWII or older. Christ, there are Americans doing more brutal things to innocent people all over the globe. The Vietnam war was filled with American soldiers commiting all kinds of crimes from drug trafficing to rape and torture. Lets go more current to Iraq and the whole prison scandal. Get over yourself idiot.
The American economy was stronger before because of isolationist policies that kept it from having to compete with the rest of the world and then people, most of them at least, got over their blind hatred of foreign competition and the US economy got even stronger. It wasn't until 9/11 and all the war spending by the current government that the economy took a big dive and is trying to come back from. Without foreign investment in America there would be millions, yes MILLIONS, of unemployed citizens in the US.
You are right, some of the best people in the world are American, its too bad you aren't one of them.

If you want a more dangerous car, than buy an Asian car. If you want a safe car, but less economical car, buy American. I don't really care about the quality of Asian cars, because I'll never drive one. If you buy a car because you can't afford maitenance for any other kind, then you don't budget your money the right way.
Strange then how Toyotas, Hondas, and Nissans regularly outperform American vehicals in crash tests, rollover scenarios, and low impact collision testing. People buy imports because they are proven time and time again to be safer and more reliable if the shit hits the fans. Sure there are crappy accidents that people die in when they shouldn't. But I've also watched a 2003 Ford Mustang get torn in half when it got T-boned at 40 miles. All three occupants died instantly. The guy who hit them was driving a '94 Corrola and had nothing other then some bruising on his face from the airbag going off.
I've watched American made SUV's roll over on corners that no vehical should ever roll over on because they are so badly designed with their high center of gravity and narrow wheel base in some of the older models. They rolled over onto the roof and slid into a k-rail at 55 mph. The passenger was crushed into her seat so badly they couldn't identify her until they talked the owners family and found out she was his girlfriend.
The simple fact though, is that when there is a tragic accident like those its usually because someone isn't telling the truth and they were speeding or they got a rare lemon off the assembly line.

The only point you have made this entire thread that can be validated is that you believe in buying American brands to support America.
So like I said, buy anything but a Honda and you'll be just fine since Subaru is now exempt from being unamerican.

They rolled over onto the roof and slid into a k-rail at 55 mph. The passenger was crushed into her seat so badly they couldn't identify her until they talked the owners family and found out she was his girlfriend.





What does that mean "talked the owners family" and she was his girlfriend? How can a woman be a girlfriend to an entire family?

I'm sorry, but the point here is that I couldn't understand what you were saying in more than a handful of those sentences. I politely offer you this advice, organize you arguments better and more people will listen.

I'll make it easy, for a car? All I can say is a 1981 Cadillac Eldorado.


For a truck, F-350 Ford pickup with the largest cab possible, all-wheel drive, a double gun-rack, raised 2-3 feet off the ground, and a horn that plays that dixie.


For an SUV, an olive drab or camo Hummer 1.

Ok, I won't call you an idiot, I'll call you a facist instead, though I still believe idiot applies.


I'm not a facist, nor am I an idiot, so don't call me either one.


Honda does help keep the American economy going. It invests in America and gives thousands of Amercans jobs that the government couldn't possibly replace. I never once said globalism is good dumb ass. I never claimed it was. I did however point out that foreign companies that invest here is a good thing because it boosts employment and keeps money here that would have shipped elsewhere.


Foreigners invest here because they want to control aspects of the American economy, and take it away from Americans. Why do you think the Chinese keep buying our bonds? They eventually will want to try to control the United States by saying: "Do this, or we don't buy the bonds."



China isn't communist, its socialist. Pretty much the same thing however. You have yet to prove Japan is brutal. All your links are from WWII or older. Christ, there are Americans doing more brutal things to innocent people all over the globe. The Vietnam war was filled with American soldiers commiting all kinds of crimes from drug trafficing to rape and torture. Lets go more current to Iraq and the whole prison scandal. Get over yourself idiot.


Americans never: tossed babies in the air and caught them on bayonets, had pleasure women as young as 14 for their officers, cut the eyelids off of the "round eyed white devil", made it a practice to kill POWs in a large, organized fashion, test biological weapons on civillian populations, use civillians for target practice and medical experiments. I could go on and on, but I'm not going to.



The American economy was stronger before because of isolationist policies that kept it from having to compete with the rest of the world and then people, most of them at least, got over their blind hatred of foreign competition and the US economy got even stronger. It wasn't until 9/11 and all the war spending by the current government that the economy took a big dive and is trying to come back from.


Government spending did not cause the stock market to go down, if it wasn't for 9/11 if would have gone down further. The tax cuts also made it worse, by concentrating more money in the hands of a few. The United States was far from isolationist in the 1950s and 1960s when the economy was strong, it wasn't until the 1970's when import cars came in, and we signed free trade agreements, that the economy went down.


Without foreign investment in America there would be millions, yes MILLIONS, of unemployed citizens in the US.
You are right, some of the best people in the world are American, its too bad you aren't one of them.


No, there wouldn't be, because without foreign investment, we could have kept the companies that were bought and shut down, or outsourced. And I don't think you can make any determination. Most people, before the globalization of the last 20 years, held the same opinions of imports, but then they became more concerned with TV shows, and entertainment.


Strange then how Toyotas, Hondas, and Nissans regularly outperform American vehicals in crash tests, rollover scenarios, and low impact collision testing. People buy imports because they are proven time and time again to be safer and more reliable if the shit hits the fans. Sure there are crappy accidents that people die in when they shouldn't. But I've also watched a 2003 Ford Mustang get torn in half when it got T-boned at 40 miles. All three occupants died instantly. The guy who hit them was driving a '94 Corrola and had nothing other then some bruising on his face from the airbag going off.
I've watched American made SUV's roll over on corners that no vehical should ever roll over on because they are so badly designed with their high center of gravity and narrow wheel base in some of the older models. They rolled over onto the roof and slid into a k-rail at 55 mph. The passenger was crushed into her seat so badly they couldn't identify her until they talked the owners family and found out she was his girlfriend.


Any truck or SUV going 55 into a corner WILL roll over. When I drive the Explorer, I slow down to around 25 whenever I take a corner, and on the highway ramps I slow down to about 30. Any sports car being T-Boned at 40 miles an hour, would kill the occupants inside, and the same goes for almost any japanese car, because they are smaller, and made of lower quality steel. The steel they use is cheaper, and low quality, in crash tests, because it bends easier, it gives higher ratings, but in high speed crashes it is a lot worse to have because it doesn't hold as well under stress. There is an illusion of feeling safer because the accident tests don't test above 40 MPH. And for the comment about rollovers, all trucks and SUV's will roll over, given the right conditions, such as on the highway, or any speed over 50 MPH. It does not matter if its an American or an import.


The simple fact though, is that when there is a tragic accident like those its usually because someone isn't telling the truth and they were speeding or they got a rare lemon off the assembly line.


Exactly, its not the car, its the driver not knowing how to drive.



The only point you have made this entire thread that can be validated is that you believe in buying American brands to support America.
So like I said, buy anything but a Honda and you'll be just fine since Subaru is now exempt from being unamerican.

No, because when I buy an import, the profit goes back to Japan. When I buy American the profit stays here.

I think you will find that American history rivels pretty much every other country in the mayhem stats. Believe me Americans can not take any moral ground with their history.

Congratulations you have almost earnt the ignore cannon which ive never had to use before

Congratualtions, I can spell properly, and you cannot.

Americans can take the moral high ground if you look at the course of history.

I'll make it easy, for a car? All I can say is a 1981 Cadillac Eldorado.


For a truck, F-350 Ford pickup with the largest cab possible, all-wheel drive, a double gun-rack, raised 2-3 feet off the ground, and a horn that plays that dixie.


For an SUV, an olive drab or camo Hummer 1.

All 3 are good cars. I like almost all Cadillacs and Lincolns, those are cars for people that have class.

Americans never: tossed babies in the air and caught them on bayonets, had pleasure women as young as 14 for their officers, cut the eyelids off of the "round eyed white devil", made it a practice to kill POWs in a large, organized fashion, test biological weapons on civillian populations, use civillians for target practice and medical experiments. I could go on and on, but I'm not going to.





Actually, there are a few errors there. The US soldiers in Germany right after the war killed at least 50,000 and as many as 500,000 German POWs and civilians. (Mostly by herding them into large fenced in fields and not feeding them, citing "Low supplies" as the reason for not feeding them)

The CIA and the Army and the Air Force tested supposedly "harmless" biological "Marker" agents on cities in the 50s-70s. Let's not forget MKULTRA and that whole deal.


Although other than that, America is better than Japan and more civilized.

You make an excellent english to english translator.

Perhaps you are using the 1947 ruling in The United Public Workers vs. Mitchell which concluded:

and as such you where advancing your political view that buying foriegn cars was treasonous and that if we didn't like it we should leave-
except, that also protects his rights to decide not buy domestic. The core difference is that he was not offering the only other option to you as leaving. It is the last part that goes against the principles that built the foundation.

So while your drawn out Socratic civics lesson has been fun, it does not change what I said.

No, what it can be interpreted to say, is that Americans have the right to buy American first, imports second.

Congratualtions, I can spell properly, and you cannot.

Americans can take the moral high ground if you look at the course of history.
lol one spelling error, shock horror.

Perhaps you should check your history before making outrageous claims.

Actually, there are a few errors there. The US soldiers in Germany right after the war killed at least 50,000 and as many as 500,000 German POWs and civilians. (Mostly by herding them into large fenced in fields and not feeding them, citing "Low supplies" as the reason for not feeding them)

The CIA and the Army and the Air Force tested supposedly "harmless" biological "Marker" agents on cities in the 50s-70s. Let's not forget MKULTRA and that whole deal.


Although other than that, America is better than Japan and more civilized.

Those were not widespread and considered "normal", they way that Japanese war crimes were.

Perhaps you should check your history before making outrageous claims.

We NEVER made it a widespread practice to commit warcrimes, and Abu Gharib, while it is awful, simply does NOT compare to what the Japanese did. It was never a standard to rape women and export them to our officers, nor was it common practice to toss babies in the air and catch them with bayonets.

Those were not widespread and considered "normal", they way that Japanese war crimes were.
wow, mr perfect, cannot spell either.

Load, Aim, Fire ********IGNORED******

wow, mr perfect, cannot spell either.

Load, Aim, Fire ********IGNORED******

Whats the matter? Realize that you can't debate with me because like most of my fellow countrymen, you don't know anything?

No, what it can be interpreted to say, is that Americans have the right to buy American first, imports second.
Then they also have the right to buy imports first and American if they get around to it. How, oh how, does this relate to you telling someone that if they don't like your little philosophy they should leave??????????????????

Are you interpreting the right to buy American first as a requirement to buy American first, or get out? Or is this just some random red herring because your medication is no longer working????

In short-what the FUCK does that have to do with what I said??? Where in the hell did I imply that you couldn't buy American first??? It seems to me you are trying to stomp on this poor guys 9th amendment right to buy whatever the hell car he wants to. Maybe you should be focusing on your own little civics lesson.

Hey. Get a Daewoo Tico or Matiz. They're a little uncomfortable if you're much over 4'9", but you can own one outright for the downpayment on a Tiburon.

http://daewooclub.tripod.com/news/news.HTML.

The Mini owners will all be drooling over your smallness.

Guys, its a car thread, chill the hell out.

Scion xa or tc, come fully loaded for nice prices,
Mazda Rx-8, excellent, excellent well rounded car, the miata is nice as well, but don't expet fair results in a crash.
chevy cobalt sedan lt, also nice for under 20k
VW golf tdi, good gas mileage, nice performance, and it's a vw hatchback

i would never suggest buying a korean car under any circumstances, and i mean any.

i would never suggest buying a korean car under any circumstances, and i mean any.

I'm not actually advocating a Tico or a Matiz. I just think they're funny as hell and cheaper than a bicycle.

I'm not actually advocating a Tico or a Matiz. I just think they're funny as hell and cheaper than a bicycle.

OK! -hug-

get a mini cooper
of course i'm only 13 and i wouldn't know anything about cars but they were cool in the italian job so why not? i sounds like you're rich anyway

http://www.azclassics.com/

You can find some pretty NICE classics there, as the name suggests.
Niiiiiiiiiiiice. Show me some more, if you know of any.

I would LOVE to have a Mazda Miata, but I dunno if I could manage that. :-x (although I probably will look into procuring a Miata, it'd cost me around $350 a month if I put $7000 down)

Instead of geting the Miata you should get its sister car, the RX-7. You will never want anything without a rotary engine again! =D

SUVs are desgned tough. Cars are designed to be squishy.

If a car hits something it is designed so that the energy it possesses deforms the car and is abated.

A SUV is desgned to hit something and survive intact. This is useful when bouncing around the wilderness, SUVs are designed to bounce.

If a car hits something solid it deforms and attempts to protect the occupants from the energy.

If a SUV hits something it must deform the something. If the SUV hits something squishy (like a car or a bush) then it is better off than the squishy thing. If the SUV hits something solid (like a truck or a tree) then all of the energy goes into making the SUV bounce. Weak components in the SUV are likely to be damaged at this point. Humans are weak components in SUVs.

not to mention, if you try to avoid hitting something in an SUV, you're going to flip over and die/get injured anyway. and if you don't want that to happen, you can always hit it, thereby killing/injuring said object.

Get a nissan 350z, now thats a really cool car :cool:

Niiiiiiiiiiiice. Show me some more, if you know of any.

I have a whole load of bookmarks. IM me, and I can give you the ones for classic cars.

If a SUV hits something it must deform the something. If the SUV hits something squishy (like a car or a bush) then it is better off than the squishy thing. If the SUV hits something solid (like a truck or a tree) then all of the energy goes into making the SUV bounce. Weak components in the SUV are likely to be damaged at this point. Humans are weak components in SUVs.


If that weak component is wearing a seatbelt, and the SUV is equipped with airbags, that weak component will be fine.

not to mention, if you try to avoid hitting something in an SUV, you're going to flip over and die/get injured anyway. and if you don't want that to happen, you can always hit it, thereby killing/injuring said object.

Rollovers are usually only fatal if the SUV rolls several times, or if the person is not wearing a seatbelt.

Then they also have the right to buy imports first and American if they get around to it. How, oh how, does this relate to you telling someone that if they don't like your little philosophy they should leave??????????????????

Are you interpreting the right to buy American first as a requirement to buy American first, or get out? Or is this just some random red herring because your medication is no longer working????

In short-what the FUCK does that have to do with what I said??? Where in the hell did I imply that you couldn't buy American first??? It seems to me you are trying to stomp on this poor guys 9th amendment right to buy whatever the hell car he wants to. Maybe you should be focusing on your own little civics lesson.

I thought you were going to ignore me.

Anyways, I think that people that buy Japanese cars tend to be traitors to this country.

I thought you were going to ignore me.
You got some focus issues, that was another guy. Scroll back and see.

Anyways, I think that people that buy Japanese cars tend to be traitors to this country.
So you've said, though I think this might be the first time you've said 'tend to be,' which has a miriad of implications that won't help this guy figure out which car he's gonna buy. Though I imagine that by now he's washed his hands of this and is taking the more sound advice from others of looking at things like Consumer Reports and buying the car that best suits his needs with the best track record of reliability. It's what he should do.

I'm not going to ask how you re-asserting your position yet again that people who buy Japanese somehow defends your 'love it or leave it' statement. I'm sure it will be another non-sequitar(sp). (if it's a question of supporting current manufacturing jobs, doesn't that make classics problematic? They don't support manufacturing jobs.)

You got some focus issues, that was another guy. Scroll back and see.


So you've said, though I think this might be the first time you've said 'tend to be,' which has a miriad of implications that won't help this guy figure out which car he's gonna buy. Though I imagine that by now he's washed his hands of this and is taking the more sound advice from others of looking at things like Consumer Reports and buying the car that best suits his needs with the best track record of reliability. It's what he should do.

I'm not going to ask how you re-asserting your position yet again that people who buy Japanese somehow defends your 'love it or leave it' statement. I'm sure it will be another non-sequitar(sp). (if it's a question of supporting current manufacturing jobs, doesn't that make classics problematic? They don't support manufacturing jobs.)

I buy American whenever possible, that means that if I have to pay $5 more for some boots, or $5,000 more for a car, I'm going to damn well do it.

I use the love it or leave it argument like this: If you do not love your country enough, that you would rather buy goods from another country that cost less, and are of inferior quality, you have not business here, because you buy those imported goods to satisfy your materialistic wants. Therefore, you should leave the country or be imprisoned for lack of loyalty.

Americans can take the moral high ground if you look at the course of history.
at the course of "hollywood" history...
America wins the war, America gets to write both American and Japanese/German school books... with "tossing babies in the air and caughting them on bayonets" and all kinds of WARpropaganda stuff... :rolleyes:

Decisive Action
What does that mean "talked the owners family" and she was his girlfriend? How can a woman be a girlfriend to an entire family?

I'm sorry, but the point here is that I couldn't understand what you were saying in more than a handful of those sentences. I politely offer you this advice, organize you arguments better and more people will listen.

Sorry, the word "to" should be in there. They talked to the owners family. As in the family of the owner of the SUV.


Kahta
Americans never: tossed babies in the air and caught them on bayonets, had pleasure women as young as 14 for their officers, cut the eyelids off of the "round eyed white devil", made it a practice to kill POWs in a large, organized fashion, test biological weapons on civillian populations, use civillians for target practice and medical experiments. I could go on and on, but I'm not going to.
Lets see here, thats the first I've heard of the whole bayonet thing. Doesn't surprise me, but its the first I've heard of it.
American soldiers didn't have pleasure women, they just raped and murdered innocent civilian girls in Vietnam and their buddies thought they were cool.
They didn't need to cut the eye lids off anyone, they invented torture by electrical shock. They killed many many POW's in WWII and Vietnam, not to mention currently in Guantanamo and Iraq.
They did use chemical weapons in Vietnam and the first Iraq war. They used civilians in Vietnam not only for target practice, but hunting targets and test markers for their artillary.

No, there wouldn't be, because without foreign investment, we could have kept the companies that were bought and shut down, or outsourced. And I don't think you can make any determination. Most people, before the globalization of the last 20 years, held the same opinions of imports, but then they became more concerned with TV shows, and entertainment.
You'd have the same thing going because one company would do something better then the others then buy them up or crush them out. Wal-Mart does it all the time for instance. People just woke up and saw that there were better alternatives out there. People want the best they can get for their money, thats a fact everywhere you go. Japanese cars started out as cheap alternatives for college students, then they started building better stronger vehicals that are so good today most US car makers are using Japanese designed technology to build their own car. Thats why its all plastic and cross drilled frames with crumple zones. Comparing a Town Car to a Civic is a ridiculous comparison because they are two very different classes of vehical. Sunfires and Cavaliers are the same class as Civics. Civics out perform them. The Town Car is the same class as the high end Lexus or Infiniti cars in which case they are perform reletivly the same. The only thing that makes some US cars safer is the fact that their HUGE. If I want to drive an elephant to work I'll move to India.

Any truck or SUV going 55 into a corner WILL roll over.
Incorrect!
I've never seen a Dodge, Toyota, or Nissan full size SUV or Truck roll over from cornering at the speed limit and they make the best SUVs and trucks on the planet with the exception of the original Hummer. The H2's kinda suck.

Any sports car being T-Boned at 40 miles an hour, would kill the occupants inside, and the same goes for almost any japanese car, because they are smaller, and made of lower quality steel. The steel they use is cheaper, and low quality, in crash tests, because it bends easier, it gives higher ratings, but in high speed crashes it is a lot worse to have because it doesn't hold as well under stress. There is an illusion of feeling safer because the accident tests don't test above 40 MPH.
Once again, incorrect. Mustangs are known for being fairly sturdy sports cars. I've been t-boned with a friend in his second gen RX-7 at 40 mph and although the car was a write off and my friend was busted up pretty bad, neither of us were ever in life threatning danger from our injuries. The other vehical was a Ford pickup and it was also written off as the engine ended up in the passengers seat. Any accident I've been in a vehical for or any of my friends have been in have never involved death or horrible injury and they all drive imports.
American car makers use the same steel that Japanese ones do. Most of the companies get their parts from the same warehouse because they're all owned by the same group in the end. There is no proof anywhere that shows imports are undeniably more dangerous that domestics in any situation. You're just spouting self-indulgent propaganda.
And for the comment about rollovers, all trucks and SUV's will roll over, given the right conditions, such as on the highway, or any speed over 50 MPH. It does not matter if its an American or an import.

Thats a fairly generalist comment. I can make any vehical period roll over in the right conditions. Stick a Ferrari in an industrial tree bark remover and it will roll over many many times.
Domestic SUV's have a far higher rollover rate because they are badly designed. Imported ones have proper suspensions for it because there aren't alot of straight roads in Japan. They have to be able to corner.
Hell, I can make a Corvette roll over on flat land and all I need is a five foot wide puddle to do it.

No, because when I buy an import, the profit goes back to Japan. When I buy American the profit stays here.
So the profit goes back to Japan even though an American company owns the Japanese car maker and gets the money from it hence keeping the money in America.

Americans can take the moral high ground if you look at the course of history.
Bullplop...

Declassified documents point to US war crimes in Iraq
http://www.mediamonitors.net/gowans22.html

Spectre Orange
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,923831,00.html

Abuse 'continued after Abu Ghraib'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1369658,00.html

This creeping sickness
http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanamo/story/0,13743,1168592,00.html

American War Crimes: The Two Faces of America
http://www.kimsoft.com/1997/nogun3.htm

War Crimes
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A20986-2004Dec22?language=printer

Americans war crimes in Vietnam
http://www.ukar.org/martin/martin02.html

US Marines Murder Civilians
http://www.sf-frontlines.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=127&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

All these are from Vietnam and the current war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Japan hasn't commited a war crime since WWII and they paid dearly for what they did. Some say not enough yet. But Americans are no saints and they still do it all today despite preaching out of their asses.

I'm not even going to bother responding because you are wrong in so many places. The American scale of atrocities, is nowhere near that of the jap atrocities, and its disgusting that you'd think of them as remotely similar.

Thats because you're in denial and can't take the fact that you've been proven wrong, again. You say Japan is a brutal country today for what its soldiers did in a war 60 years ago. All those men are dead or dying. You have yet to prove your point that America is all golden and saintly when there is clear and more modern evidence that it is still commiting warcrimes. You choose to deny responsibility because it is inconvinient to your point of view.
Similar, hell, in some places their identical.
If you want to go back 60+ years for Japan, let go back even further for the US. How about to when America was still settling and running around killing the indians. Sending the cavalry into villages and slaughtering anyone that moved and wasn't wearing a blue uniform.

Get a nissan 350z, now thats a really cool car :cool:
yes it is

http://www.ebgames.com/ebx_assets/product_images/244216.jpg

Get a nissan 350z, now thats a really cool car :cool:
Yeah, but unless Nissan starts selling them at half price that's not really gonna help the guy. Remeber, a Miata would be a stretch for him.

Incidently, a friend of mine let me drive his dads Miata around an industrial park and I have to say, bitchbasket stigma aside-that car was a kick in the pants to drive. I went from apexing turns to drifting and back again with ease and it was zippy as hell. Not the fastest or most powerful, but had what was essential, really-it was fun.

Thats because you're in denial and can't take the fact that you've been proven wrong, again. You say Japan is a brutal country today for what its soldiers did in a war 60 years ago. All those men are dead or dying. You have yet to prove your point that America is all golden and saintly when there is clear and more modern evidence that it is still commiting warcrimes. You choose to deny responsibility because it is inconvinient to your point of view.
Similar, hell, in some places their identical.
If you want to go back 60+ years for Japan, let go back even further for the US. How about to when America was still settling and running around killing the indians. Sending the cavalry into villages and slaughtering anyone that moved and wasn't wearing a blue uniform.

No, its because you're rabidly anti-American and anything I say you will spin into something else. America never has, and never will commit warcrimes on the same scale that the japs did.

I'm hardly anti-american. I love Americans, unless their dolts like yourself. You're in denial and try to spin everything into America is innocent and everyone is always worse. Stop lying to yourself and try living.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=1227

Click "New Thread"

Continue your stuff there :p

Anyway, are Subarus good cars? There's a 2004 Impreza that looks neat

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=1227

Click "New Thread"

Continue your stuff there :p

Anyway, are Subarus good cars? There's a 2004 Impreza that looks neat
Subaru's aren't bad. They are a part of GM and they make fine cars. Especially if you want 4WD, but you don't have to get 4WD unless you want to. Looking outside right now, I"d highly suggest it. I'm up to my ass in snow and my 2WD Saab isn't a very fun car in snow.

Yeah, I don't think I could do a Tiburon.. I realized that when trying to go through the allyway behind my house in the '04 Classic that I'm driving for now (rental car, shouldn't be driving that one either)

I'm driving a rental because a week-two weeks ago I hit my date and totaled his car, and totalled another car.. and totalled the dealership car that I was driving because our car that we bought frmo them was in their shop - the transmission died for like the second/third time. Hell, the taurus only has 90 thousand miles on it.

05 Ford Mustang GT. It runs about 25,000.

I'm driving a rental because a week-two weeks ago I hit my date and totaled his car, and totalled another car.. and totalled the dealership car that I was driving because our car that we bought frmo them was in their shop - the transmission died for like the second/third time. Hell, the taurus only has 90 thousand miles on it.

I so feel sorry for you if it was your fault. :O

'64 Chevrolet Impala SS with a 409cid. V8. That's what I'm hoping for.
Shit. Wrong year. I meant a '60. The '64 isn't as nice, and it's bigest block would be a 427. Love those crazy spread-wing fins.

I so feel sorry for you if it was your fault. :O

I got the citation. I don't remember the 5-10 minutes leading up to the collision, though. And I was uninsured because it was a dealership car.

I'm driving a rental because a week-two weeks ago I hit my date and totaled his car, and totalled another car.. and totalled the dealership car that I was driving because our car that we bought frmo them was in their shop - the transmission died for like the second/third time. Hell, the taurus only has 90 thousand miles on it.

Since you're one of the worst drivers ever, I'd say that you should look at buying a bike.

Since you're one of the worst drivers ever, I'd say that you should look at buying a bike.

I'm glad you think that.

I reccomend a Civic LX, the LX is bigger than the DX, if they even still make those.

New they run about 13,000.

You can get a 2000 for about 6,000.

I have a RAV4. Drives like a car, goes through terrain like an SUV and has the cargo room of a pick-up. All with the gas milage of... well, a standard car.

I have a RAV4. Drives like a car, goes through terrain like an SUV and has the cargo room of a pick-up. All with the gas milage of... well, a standard car.
while I appreciate the RAV4 i have done offroad tests with it ... it does not quite keep up with some of the other suv's out there (does with some) and does not have neerly the cargo room of my short box pickup.
Its good for thoes that want a higher sitting good vehicle but for thoes that truly NEED an suv or larger vehicle it does not perform up to spec