NationStates Jolt Archive

Warning - This link is NOT meant for those who feel sick when looking at starving children (http://images.google.com/images?q=starving&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search)

I don't get it. Vegitarians are among the luckiest of the few million people who are put into a world where food is everywhere. And yet, they refuse to eat meat. They claim that eating meat is evil. They claim that meat is intoxicating.

They say no thanks to food. Food is something that people would kill for. Food is a privelige (sp), not something that HAS TO be given to you.

I just don't understand it. I emphasize with atheists now when they say they don't understand why we believe in a God. VEGITARIANS DON'T MAKE SENSE!


*Vegitarian (sp?)

Er...are you joking? You do know that it is a LOT more efficient to grow crops than to farm livestock, right? So the old "starving children in Africa" argument doesn't quite work.

I don't get it. Vegitarians are among the luckiest of the few million people who are put into a world where food is everywhere. And yet, they refuse to eat meat. They claim that eating meat is evil. They claim that meat is intoxicating.

It seems to me that you have misunderstood the fact that a vegetarian diet actually uses less resources than an omnivorous one, and thus if anyone can be said to be responsible for encouraging the disparity of the availability of food in the world, it is western omnivores.

Er...are you joking? You do know that it is a LOT more efficient to grow crops than to farm livestock, right? So the old "starving children in Africa" argument doesn't quite work.
I think that's not the point of Colodia. The point is (I think) that vegetarians "whine" about their food, where others are starving.

When we take communion we accept Christ's body and his blood.
It is God's will take we partake of the flesh.
Vegitarians are sinners, and are doomed to spend an eternity in Hell.
So sayeth the Lord

Er...are you joking? You do know that it is a LOT more efficient to grow crops than to farm livestock, right? So the old "starving children in Africa" argument doesn't quite work.
...

You bring up another point


Why do damn idiotic girls go "Just kidding" when they say something stupid and have someone else point out their stupidity?

Girl: Oh, so when is this due?
Teacher: I just said, next week
Girl: Oh...just kidding


First time, okay haha fine. Second time, whatever. Twelfth time, STFU YOU STUPID GIRL!

I think that's not the point of Colodia. The point is (I think) that vegetarians "whine" about their food, where others are starving.

Oh yes. But the point is that by complaining, they are eating more efficiently. They are not the ones depriving people of food. Christ, all of the major famines I can think of were caused by civil war anyway.

When we take communion we accept Christ's body and his blood.
It is God's will take we partake of the flesh.
Vegitarians are sinners, and are doomed to spend an eternity in Hell.
So sayeth the Lord
o.O
Wow.

I don't get it. Atheists are among the luckiest of the few million people who are put into a world where knowledge is everywhere. And yet, they refuse to believe in God. They claim that belief in God is evil. They claim that God is intoxicating.

They say no thanks to God. God is something that people would kill for. God is a privelige (sp), not something that HAS TO be given to you.

I just don't understand it. ATHEISTS DON'T MAKE SENSE!


I concur.






















;) :fluffle:

The main reason a lot of those countries dont have enough food to feed themselves is because they sell all the grain they grow to developed countries so we can feed our animals.
The conversion of plant protein and nutrients into animal protein and nutrients is so amazingly inefficient. 50 vegetarians can eat really well on the land used to feed 1 meat-eater.
Do some research before you make such conclusions about issues like this.
I feel like insulting you but I dont want to. I see that you're problem is not that you're stupid but because you just haven't been exposed to proper education. Please research this, you'll find that vegetarianism does more to stop world poverty than it does take our abundance of food for granted.

Edit: sorry, it seems my point has already been raised... I was so infuriated by it that I only scanned over the replies.

The main reason a lot of those countries dont have enough food to feed themselves is because they sell all the grain they grow to developed countries so we can feed our animals.
The conversion of plant protein and nutrients into animal protein and nutrients is so amazingly inefficient. 50 vegetarians can eat really well on the land used to feed 1 meat-eater.
Do some research before you make such conclusions about issues like this.
I feel like insulting you but I dont want to. I see that you're problem is not that you're stupid but because you just haven't been exposed to proper education. Please research this, you'll find that vegetarianism does more to stop world poverty than it does take our abundance of food for granted.
Wow.... we can feed on grass?

God has created us to be omnivores.
We will eat whatever He has prepared for us.
In times of plentiful crops we shall consume the vegitation.
In time of plentiful livestock we shall consume the flesh.
So sayeth the Lord.

The most famous vegetarian that I can think of is .........Adolph Hitler.

No further comment needed.

Wow.... we can feed on grass?
That was amazingly short-sighted.
LAND USE, [cut out]. 1 hectare of farm land growing grass can feed 2 cows/sheep, so about 5 cow-eating humans. However, 1 hectare of farm land growing fruit trees, vegetables, wheat, soy, nuts and grains can feed about 25 people.
In addition, many third world countries cut down the endangered rainforest on their land to farm crops that humans can eat, like wheat, soy and grains, to feed pig and chicken farms in developed countries. So these countries loose their valuable tourist assets, then send off the food that they desperately need to feed animals in developed countries. It's stupid!

Edit: sorry, I just get worked up.

The most famous vegetarian that I can think of is .........Adolph Hitler.

No further comment needed.

You idiot.

Edit: I'm not sorry. I wasn't disputing the fact that he was. It was a stupid and irrelevant comment.

In addition, many third world countries cut down the endangered rainforest on their land to farm crops that humans can eat, like wheat, soy and grains, to feed pig and chicken farms in developed countries. So these countries loose their valuable tourist assets, then send off the food that they desperately need to feed animals in developed countries. It's stupid!

And rainforest soil really isn't suited to agriculture. It's low in nutrients and quite acidic, generally. When the forest is cut down, this layer of soil quickly erodes anyway.

That was amazingly short-sighted.
LAND USE, dickhead. 1 hectare of farm land growing grass can feed 2 cows/sheep, so about 5 cow-eating humans. However, 1 hectare of farm land growing fruit trees, vegetables, wheat, soy, nuts and grains can feed about 25 people.
In addition, many third world countries cut down the endangered rainforest on their land to farm crops that humans can eat, like wheat, soy and grains, to feed pig and chicken farms in developed countries. So these countries loose their valuable tourist assets, then send off the food that they desperately need to feed animals in developed countries. It's stupid!
Dude. Settle down. I was kidding.
I know about all this. My two kid brothers are both vegetarian.

Vegetarians who don't eat meat because they think it is cruel to the animals who are being kiled for meat, are missing one point.

They don't want to be cruel to the animals?

The animals in question are only in existance due to the fact that we humans have farmed them and bred them for meat. If everyone turned vegetarian, we would no longer have any use for pigs, many types of cow would no longer be needed, only those that produce milk and eggs would be required.

So killing animals for meat is cruel, but wiping out whole species isn't?

Atheists are among the luckiest of the few million people who are put into a world where knowledge is everywhere.

Science based knowledge, science that seems to be doing a very good job at disproving several religious beliefs.

Indeed.

You idiot.

Thank you for the abuse.

If you care to check the facts, then you will discover that Hitler was a vegetarian.

And, I believe, quite famous.

If you wish to dispute facts, or argue a point of view, that is fine.

Straightout abuse I can do without.

So killing animals for meat is cruel, but wiping out whole species isn't?


So keeping a whole species in captivity to farm them for food is humane? I'm glad you cleared that up for me.

Science based knowledge, science that seems to be doing a very good job at disproving several religious beliefs.


Science has yet to disprove a single one of my religious beliefs ... as a matter of fact, science continually proves my religious beliefs.

Go Science!

God has created us to be omnivores.
We will eat whatever He has prepared for us.
In times of plentiful crops we shall consume the vegitation.
In time of plentiful livestock we shall consume the flesh.
So sayeth the Lord.
We're not really omnivores... we cant eat raw meat, what other meat eating animal cant? Our teeth are more designed for veges and such, not meat.
Anyway, I know the bible makes reference to eating meat, but a lot of it is humans looking after the world and its fellow animals, not raping and killing it.

Thank you for the abuse.

If you care to check the facts, then you will discover that Hitler was a vegetarian.

And, I believe, quite famous.

If you wish to dispute facts, or argue a point of view, that is fine.

Straightout abuse I can do without.

Hitler was a vegetarian. However, that fact does not automatically prove that vegetarians are bad.

If you want to dispute facts that's fine.

I can do without you name-dropping evil celebrity vegetarians.

God is something that people would kill for.

I wouldn't want something people will kill for. Shortens life expectancy.

Besides, with vegetarians being generally more concerned with what they eat than others, and more concerned with animal rights, they probably are also more concerned with human rights. If there's a correlary to be drawn at all between your diet and your moral values (which I hold to be nonsense for the most part), for some reason I don't think the Red-meat Texans would be the victor of that assessment.

Hitler was a vegetarian. However, that fact does not automatically prove that vegetarians are bad.

If you want to dispute facts that's fine.

I can do without you name-dropping evil celebrity vegetarians.

Did I claim that vegetarians are bad?

I deliberately mentioned Hitler as a vegeterian (as you are seemingly now prepared to concede) because the vegetarians often claim their own celebrities, or claim that being vegetarian makes you less violent, calmer, more serene, etc, etc.

Although, I guess that you have rather destroyed some of that argument anyway.

We're not really omnivores... we cant eat raw meat, what other meat eating animal cant? Our teeth are more designed for veges and such, not meat.

You have not heard of Carpaccio, very thin beef, usually marinaded, very tasty. Oh and a rare steak means that the centre is raw.

So keeping a whole species in captivity to farm them for food is humane?

Last time I saw a cow (yesterday) it was chomping happily on some grass in the sunshine.

So is releasing some animals into a habitat in which they are not brought up to live in humane? Farm animals depend on humans for survival.

I wouldn't want something people will kill for. Shortens life expectancy.


So don't eat. People will kill for food.

Don't think I agree with the Country has not enough to feed themselves because it's all used to feed animals in developed countries.

I thought their land was just infertile? Or population more than they can feed.

Hmm. Any links concerning this matter?

Cow munching happily in the sunshine?
*cough (http://www.themeatrix.com)
Even in the rare case that animals are treated nicely in their lives, the slaughterhouse is a different story. Its a conveyor belt where the animals are placed on live, their throats slit by a machine and then they are skinned and their limbs are cut off. Pigs and poultry are boiled to remove their feathers/bristles. What's wrong with that? The throat-slitting machine doesn't always get them, and even if it does it doesnt always kill them that quickly. The result? The animals are boiled alive/skinned and have their limbs cut off when they are conscious. In the words of a slaughterhouse worker who had his arm shattered by a kicking cow who wasn't killed by the throat slit: "The line doesn't stop just because it's alive."
Then you go into factory farming and such, the whole thing is fucking horrific. No one in their right mind would eat butcher's meat.

Warning - This link is NOT meant for those who feel sick when looking at starving children (http://images.google.com/images?q=starving&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search)

I don't get it. Vegitarians are among the luckiest of the few million people who are put into a world where food is everywhere. And yet, they refuse to eat meat. They claim that eating meat is evil. They claim that meat is intoxicating.

They say no thanks to food. Food is something that people would kill for. Food is a privelige (sp), not something that HAS TO be given to you.

I just don't understand it. I emphasize with atheists now when they say they don't understand why we believe in a God. VEGITARIANS DON'T MAKE SENSE!


*Vegitarian (sp?)

I'm a Vegetarian, due to religious reasons, I think it's about high time you stop your fucking generalisations, no?

Growing vegetables rather than livestock is much more efficient, meaning those starving people could... *gasp* eat? (I know that this is overly simplified, but hey, I'm tired and can't be bothered getting into it.)

I don't think that eating meat is evil, however I think you're a sad sad little man for belittling vegetarians because of what they choose to eat, if they start saying something it's a different matter, and I have hit people who have claimed that eating meat is wrong and evil before.

Also I've never EVER heard that eating meat was intoxicating, but then again, I don't live in America, land of the stupid. (If you didn't catch that one, I'm showing how futile generalisations

Er...are you joking? You do know that it is a LOT more efficient to grow crops than to farm livestock, right? So the old "starving children in Africa" argument doesn't quite work.

Of course, if efficiency is your objective, then absolutely nothing can beat cannabalism.

Takes care of demand and supply simultaneously.

I'm a Vegetarian, due to religious reasons, I think it's about high time you stop your fucking generalisations, no?

Growing vegetables rather than livestock is much more efficient, meaning those starving people could... *gasp* eat? (I know that this is overly simplified, but hey, I'm tired and can't be bothered getting into it.)

I don't think that eating meat is evil, however I think you're a sad sad little man for belittling vegetarians because of what they choose to eat, if they start saying something it's a different matter, and I have hit people who have claimed that eating meat is wrong and evil before.

Also I've never EVER heard that eating meat was intoxicating, but then again, I don't live in America, land of the stupid. (If you didn't catch that one, I'm showing how futile generalisations
Jesus, could've skipped all that and said "Hey, I'm a vegitarian for religous reasons..." and I would've said "Alright, your good."

But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO....You had to do the opposite! You DID NOT take the OPPORTUNITY to be the better person!

Thus I am less compelled to listen to you in the future.

See what a kind word to a grumpy person does? It helps so much.

Jesus, could've skipped all that and said "Hey, I'm a vegitarian for religous reasons..." and I would've said "Alright, your good."

But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO....You had to do the opposite! You DID NOT take the OPPORTUNITY to be the better person!

Thus I am less compelled to listen to you in the future.

See what a kind word to a grumpy person does? It helps so much.

Couldn't resist pointing out that you're an idiot though. The respect of a person off the internet isn't that high on my priorities either...

Couldn't resist pointing out that you're an idiot though. The respect of a person off the internet isn't that high on my priorities either...
I think someone needs some love
:fluffle:

Warning - This link is NOT meant for those who feel sick when looking at starving children (http://images.google.com/images?q=starving&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search)

I don't get it. Vegitarians are among the luckiest of the few million people who are put into a world where food is everywhere. And yet, they refuse to eat meat. They claim that eating meat is evil. They claim that meat is intoxicating.

They say no thanks to food. Food is something that people would kill for. Food is a privelige (sp), not something that HAS TO be given to you.

I just don't understand it. I emphasize with atheists now when they say they don't understand why we believe in a God. VEGITARIANS DON'T MAKE SENSE!


*Vegitarian (sp?)

Actually, most of them are just against animal cruelty. Go eat some beans.

I think someone needs some love
:fluffle:

Nah just have to stop drinking in the afternoon... by night I get grumpeh...

Even in the rare case that animals are treated nicely in their lives, the slaughterhouse is a different story. Its a conveyor belt where the animals are placed on live, their throats slit by a machine and then they are skinned and their limbs are cut off. Pigs and poultry are boiled to remove their feathers/bristles. What's wrong with that? The throat-slitting machine doesn't always get them, and even if it does it doesnt always kill them that quickly. The result? The animals are boiled alive/skinned and have their limbs cut off when they are conscious. In the words of a slaughterhouse worker who had his arm shattered by a kicking cow who wasn't killed by the throat slit: "The line doesn't stop just because it's alive."

Eh? Where'd you get that from? In the Uk, this is how it happens ->
The animal is kept in a relaxed mood, due to the fact if they get agitated, they release adrenaline into their blood, which as a result increases the amount of lactic acid in their muscles, which as a result ruins the meat.

The animal is killed by a spring-loaded bolt to the head. Bolt goes in -> animal is now dead, no mooing, baahing, or oinking. The animal is then hoisted up, it's neck slit, and then butchered and left to hang.

Just like that. If what you say, you experienced first hand, then I would seriously think about informing the correct authorities.

Er...are you joking? You do know that it is a LOT more efficient to grow crops than to farm livestock, right? So the old "starving children in Africa" argument doesn't quite work.
However in the long term and in some climates it is not as ecologically sound to grow crops.

Thank you for the abuse.

If you care to check the facts, then you will discover that Hitler was a vegetarian.

And, I believe, quite famous.

If you wish to dispute facts, or argue a point of view, that is fine.

Straightout abuse I can do without.1. You are not Smeagol-Gollum
2. The point ist that Adolf Hitler being vegetarian does not in any way add to the discussion about being vegetarian, because it is simply not an argument. Thus you are in fact an idiot. In the original meaning.

Warning - This link is NOT meant for those who feel sick when looking at starving children (http://images.google.com/images?q=starving&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search)

I don't get it. Vegitarians are among the luckiest of the few million people who are put into a world where food is everywhere. And yet, they refuse to eat meat. They claim that eating meat is evil. They claim that meat is intoxicating.

They say no thanks to food. Food is something that people would kill for. Food is a privelige (sp), not something that HAS TO be given to you.

I just don't understand it. I emphasize with atheists now when they say they don't understand why we believe in a God. VEGITARIANS DON'T MAKE SENSE!


*Vegitarian (sp?)


what? i never met a vegetarian who thought meat was intoxicating. i know lots who say that meat is a dead animal, and it isn't fair to the animal to kill it to eat. they aren't saying no to food anyway, they're saying that certain things you think are food aren't food.

Haven't you ever said no to food? i've seen baby bird abortion kebabs offered as food. I didn't eat them. Would you? Aren't you a muslim? do you eat pork? And food isn't given to me. I buy it with money that I earn.

Warning - This link is NOT meant for those who feel sick when looking at starving children (http://images.google.com/images?q=starving&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search)

I don't get it. Vegitarians are among the luckiest of the few million people who are put into a world where food is everywhere. And yet, they refuse to eat meat. They claim that eating meat is evil. They claim that meat is intoxicating.

They say no thanks to food. Food is something that people would kill for. Food is a privelige (sp), not something that HAS TO be given to you.

I just don't understand it. I emphasize with atheists now when they say they don't understand why we believe in a God. VEGITARIANS DON'T MAKE SENSE!


*Vegitarian (sp?)

He he he...I have several friends that are vegetarians, and I just dont understand it either. But I just bought a shirt from Aéropostale thats says "Save a cow, eat a vegetarian!"

Land Use- a field of grain (you choose what kind) that can feed two cows can feed 64 people. And with today's technology, there are soy protein-based products that look, feel, and taste like meat. Isn't that nice?

As for my vegitarianism, I didn't do it for a religious reason or b/c I wanted to be kind to animals; I became vegetarian b/c someone dared me to and said that I wouldn't last a week without meat. Well, it's been two years, and I'm still doing pretty well. ;) :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Independent Homesteads]what? i never met a vegetarian who thought meat was intoxicating. i know lots who say that meat is a dead animal, and it isn't fair to the animal to kill it to eat. they aren't saying no to food anyway, they're saying that certain things you think are food aren't food.
QUOTE]

Agreed.
Meat? Intoxicating? ;)

meat is far more nutricious than plants. Besides unless its your religion why would you give up killing one organism to kill another more and do you know how many more organisms die due to farms then livestock.

If you are against meat then you are against the best things in life like puppies, dogs, wolves, coyotes, flesh eating virus, animal experimentation, people (Damn i really hate people don't I), cats (hate them)

Any way humans where designed to eat meat. In the beggining the neanderthals and croMagnens (Before the genocided the Neanderthals in the first war) ate alot of meat and little plants.

If you really wanted to spare organism lives then eat nothing but fruit and honey (unless you kill the bees :mad: you all make me sick and if wondering i basically only eat meat :) )

That was amazingly short-sighted.
LAND USE, [cut out]. 1 hectare of farm land growing grass can feed 2 cows/sheep, so about 5 cow-eating humans. However, 1 hectare of farm land growing fruit trees, vegetables, wheat, soy, nuts and grains can feed about 25 people.

Not that I agree with the OT/OP, but your point is also short-sighted in that it assumes that the land is farmable for all those crops, and can be maintained. Not all land that can support livestock is capable of crop usage. And even those that are require vast amounts of maintenence to protect and keep arable. Not to mention all the pesticides and chemical fertilizers you would be using and introducing into the local environment to keep that land up to those production levels.

Warning - This link is NOT meant for those who feel sick when looking at starving children (http://images.google.com/images?q=starving&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search)

I don't get it. Vegitarians are among the luckiest of the few million people who are put into a world where food is everywhere. And yet, they refuse to eat meat. They claim that eating meat is evil. They claim that meat is intoxicating.

They say no thanks to food. Food is something that people would kill for. Food is a privelige (sp), not something that HAS TO be given to you.

I just don't understand it. I emphasize with atheists now when they say they don't understand why we believe in a God. VEGITARIANS DON'T MAKE SENSE!

*Vegitarian (sp?)

I have a grudge against vegetarians. I've been diagnosed with Coeliac Disease for nearly five years, and the only way to control it is by following a strict gluten fre diet - cutting out the gluten found in wheat, barley, rye and sometimes oats. in other words, stop eating bread, pizza, pasta, biscuits, pastry, etc etc etc. And of course there are specially made alternatives and things, but it's not the real thing.

I can't understand why vegetarians would willingly want to cut foods out of their diets. I just don't get it.

My grandad used to say that the French didn't understand vegetarians, and I never believed him until I was in France a few years ago, and we were at a restaurant - really, really quiet, and there was only me and co., an elderly couple, and a group of four students.
So, the guy comes to take the order from the students, and so they each order, and then the last one asks what is suitable for vegetarians. And the waiter says 'pardon?' and he just can't understand why people don't eat meat. Just don't get it. He asks her why, and she replies that ishe wants to help the animals, and something else ehich I didn't catch 'cause it was Fast French. So, the waiter eventually sniffs, and replies that nothing is, and maybe they should go somewhere else. So the students look at each other and leave.
The waiter then goes over to the elderly couple, who I think were German or something, and the man explains in bits and pieces of French that he doesn't eat meat for medical reasons - his doctor has told him he shouldn't. Man, the waiter was SO sympathetic. He got the chef out and the cooked the guy a whole vegetable meal which looked so much better than anything else on the menu.

Just don't understand vegetarians. Cannot be done.

Warning - This link is NOT meant for those who feel sick when looking at starving children (http://images.google.com/images?q=starving&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search)

Okay... and you know that a lot of vegetarians believe in the diet because it would make food much cheaper and more available? Guess not.

Think about it... Use all available land to grow crops for human consumption... or use most of it to farm the tons and tons of livestock feed that go into a single cow over the course of its life -- only to eat that one cow. How many people does that feed again?

They claim that eating meat is evil.

Not all of us do. Some of us just claim a vegetarian diet is more environmentally friendly, better for the economy, and a boost to world food production. Also, many of us do not think that eating meat per se is wrong, but that the inhumane mass-production of animals for slaughter is perverse and cruel. We see a big difference between, say, hunting animals for personal use and putting them in dark stalls where they cannot move, eat things they were never meant to eat, only to die a painful death. The first leaves them free in the wild, and puts a person in touch with that whole "food chain" business... the latter is just disgusting.

They claim that meat is intoxicating.

Hehe... I doubt that. You mean toxic. And that's not quite what we vegetarians claim. We point out that there is good evidence the human animal was not really designed for meat. We eat too often, our intestines are too long, and we don't have the teeth for it. I know, you'll point to the canine teeth... Well, either our evolutionary ancestors used a version of these teeth for fighting and not rending meat (which seems more likely given the rest of our physiology, or they are a rather late adaptation to the need to eat meat.

In any case, whether we were "built" for it or not is rarely the point for vegetarians... although we are happy to produce studies that link meat consumption to increased cancer rates, heart disease, and other medical conditions.

Not that I agree with the OT/OP, but your point is also short-sighted in that it assumes that the land is farmable for all those crops, and can be maintained. Not all land that can support livestock is capable of crop usage.

That's not the point. Even if none of the land used to support livestock can be farmed for food crops, how about the land currently used to produce livestock feed crops?

And even those that are require vast amounts of maintenence to protect and keep arable.

No more so than existing farms. So what is your point?

Not to mention all the pesticides and chemical fertilizers you would be using and introducing into the local environment to keep that land up to those production levels.

Hmmm... Maybe if we had more land to produce crops, we would need fewer pesticides and fertilizers to keep up production?

You have probably noticed that vegetarians are, often enough, the ones supporting the organic foods industry.

You have probably noticed that vegetarians are, often enough, the ones supporting the organic foods industry.

On the other hand, a lot of people who AREN'T vegetarians support the organic foods industry. Me, for example. Or those organic food companies that sell meat.

I'm 28 and was a vegetarian for 5 years. I stated eating chicken and fish when I was 21. I put on 20 pounds (of lean muscle mass) in 6 months. I felt better and was more active, despite following a careful diet while being vegetarian (lots of protien, B vitamins, etc.). I've now been eating all kinds of meat for the last 3 months, and am having the same effect.
I feel better, and thanks to the weight, I look better. I admire vegetarians for their committment to create less suffering, but in my case, it was at my own expense.

On the other hand, a lot of people who AREN'T vegetarians support the organic foods industry. Me, for example. Or those organic food companies that sell meat.

I never said you didn't (and good for you). I was merely responding to the assumption that increased agricultural production would necessarily mean more pesticides/fertilizers.

(As if they don't use pesticides and fertilizers on animal feed.)

I'm 28 and was a vegetarian for 5 years. I stated eating chicken and fish when I was 21. I put on 20 pounds (of lean muscle mass) in 6 months. I felt better and was more active, despite following a careful diet while being vegetarian (lots of protien, B vitamins, etc.). I've now been eating all kinds of meat for the last 3 months, and am having the same effect.
I feel better, and thanks to the weight, I look better. I admire vegetarians for their committment to create less suffering, but in my case, it was at my own expense.

No offense, but you may not have been doing it right. A vegetarian diet requires a great diversity of foods, and a lot of people simply fail to realize that it takes a little bit of work to attain the right habits.

I have been vegetarian my entire life of twenty-four years. I am healthy and fit -- in fact, I am an excellent climber, and well-equipped with the muscle to do it. I have more muscle-mass than most of my meat-eating friends.

My girlfriend is thirty-two and has been vegetarian since she was fifteen. She is also quite healthy and fit -- in the summer she joins me for my run every day.

Just a note on the crops grown by third world countries:

Large tracts of land in Africa are not used to grow food for either animals or people - or at least not subsistence style food. Large corporations own a lot of the agricultural land and use it to grow roses for export to the west. Or other kinds of hothouse flowers. Or in South America and Africa where children are kept in virtually slavery to grow cocoa plants to sustain the West's appetite for chocolate. Coffee, which gets a lot of flaq when it's not fair trade, is at least kinder than those substances - the rocky mountainsides where coffee grows is the least likely place to grow other sorts of crops. You could graze your goats and sheep there, but that's about it.

Yes, flowers, coca, and coffee are cash crops for poor nations, but it's not like the growers get any reasonable amount of money for their labour. The bulk of the profit goes to the middlemen who buy up the crops for export - or the large corporations that combine ownership of the crops with the exporting duties.

It isn't just meat. Vegetarians who swear off meat because food that should feed people are feeding animals instead, should stay away from anything grown on a 'third-world' plantation that isn't fair traded. And they should stop buying flowers from flower shops and chocolate from the corner store too, since its all part and parcel of the same problem. I'm not indicting anyone, or saying that their choices are wrong, what I'm trying to do is urge you to think about other ethical buying practices.

As for organic foods - I live in Victoria, BC, Canada, and our grocery stores are embracing organic. When it comes to fresh produce, you have to look hard to find non-organic stuff. Even for pre-packaged foods, most stores have an aisle dedicated to organic food. And we're not talking health food stores here, we're talking most of the grocery chains. With the lone exception of Safeway, that is.

I've got nothing against vegetarians, unless they cop that "holier than thou" attitude that some of them seem to have and try to make others feel guilty for eating meat.

How this - YOU concentrate on what goes in YOUR gob, and I'LL concentrate on what goes in MINE...

Here's a little food for thought -

- If humans aren't meant to eat meat, why do vegetarians and vegans need to take so many dietary supplements?

- Why are our closest living relatives in the animal kingdom (chimps) omnivores who consume plant and animal matter?

- Finally (and most compellingly) why does a nice juicy steak taste so good, while lentils are like something that came out of a baby's nappy?

http://www.wbfoods.com/media/delitray/delitray_allmeat.jpg

http://www.barbecue-online.co.uk/barbecue-recipes/beef/images/bbq_porterhouse_barbecue_steak_recipe.jpg

http://www.spicedright.com/P8220025.JPG

;)

I understand why people don't eat meat - they feel that animals suffer needlessly. I'm not one of these people that argue that "natural = right;" I think that concept is quite ridiculous. I do think there is a tendacy within the meat eating majority to get overly defensive about this issue, but I don't count myself among them.*

However, I've seen how animals are raised and slaughtered and found it to be quite humane. Animals don't have our rather abstract concept of freedom. As long as they can live in comfort, they're happy. When they are actually killed, there may be a few seconds of confusion, but almost instantly they are stunned and then slaughtered while unconscious. After that, sweet oblivion.

As long as the animals are raised in humane conditions, I can't see how it's cruel.

Battery farming and all those deplorable practises are another matter. Animals may not be fully sentinent, but they do still have a capacity for suffering.

*People that get defensive, I mean. I loooove the meat.

Eh? Where'd you get that from? In the Uk, this is how it happens ->
The animal is kept in a relaxed mood, due to the fact if they get agitated, they release adrenaline into their blood, which as a result increases the amount of lactic acid in their muscles, which as a result ruins the meat.

The animal is killed by a spring-loaded bolt to the head. Bolt goes in -> animal is now dead, no mooing, baahing, or oinking. The animal is then hoisted up, it's neck slit, and then butchered and left to hang.

Just like that. If what you say, you experienced first hand, then I would seriously think about informing the correct authorities.
Trust me it happens everywhere, the way you expressed is a humane way sure but not the most common form. Don't forget teeth snipping, tail cutting, hoof slicing etc

Okay I've read all the post, even by the geiser up there who has some disease. Are you people in some way retarded. Get it through your heads, some people just dont like meat, some people don't like eating cheese off the ground, but because you do does that mean I should. This isn't a topic of argument it's a topic based around some guy who thinks everyone should walk, talk and act like him and eat what he wants. Get over it guys, some people don't eat meat, maybe its the flavour, animal cruelty, land production and religion. Fuck.

I've got nothing against vegetarians, unless they cop that "holier than thou" attitude that some of them seem to have and try to make others feel guilty for eating meat.

Well, considering that many vegetarians adopt the diet because they think it is better for the planet, that would sort of defeat the purpose, wouldn't it? It is, for many vegetarians, a political choice that involves political language.

- If humans aren't meant to eat meat, why do vegetarians and vegans need to take so many dietary supplements?

I have been vegetarian my entire life. I do not take any supplements.

- Why are our closest living relatives in the animal kingdom (chimps) omnivores who consume plant and animal matter?

Okay. Look at how much meat they eat and compare it to the average American's diet. Then get back to me.

- Finally (and most compellingly) why does a nice juicy steak taste so good, while lentils are like something that came out of a baby's nappy?

It has to be conditioning... because from time to time I have been accidentally served meat, and I have not found anything attractive about the flavor. It varies from bland to downright gross. Lentils on the other hand -- yum yum!

No offense, but you may not have been doing it right. A vegetarian diet requires a great diversity of foods, and a lot of people simply fail to realize that it takes a little bit of work to attain the right habits.

I have been vegetarian my entire life of twenty-four years. I am healthy and fit -- in fact, I am an excellent climber, and well-equipped with the muscle to do it. I have more muscle-mass than most of my meat-eating friends.

My girlfriend is thirty-two and has been vegetarian since she was fifteen. She is also quite healthy and fit -- in the summer she joins me for my run every day.
I kept a careful diet, varied and well supplemented. It shouldn't be hard to guess though that steak puts on more weight than carrots.
I tell my overweight friends that the easiest way to lose weight would be to go vegetarian. A few have had great results, and often wonder they haven't heard of this as a good method of weight loss. Go figure.

That's good for you both, and I do appreciate your committment. I'd just hope that your position on preventing suffering goes farther than just the animals, and you invest more of your energy on helping your fellow human beings.

I don't get it. Vegitarians are among the luckiest of the few million people who are put into a world where food is everywhere. And yet, they refuse to eat meat. They claim that eating meat is evil. They claim that meat is intoxicating.

They say no thanks to food. Food is something that people would kill for. Food is a privelige (sp), not something that HAS TO be given to you.

I just don't understand it. I emphasize with atheists now when they say they don't understand why we believe in a God. VEGITARIANS DON'T MAKE SENSE!


*Vegitarian (sp?)

Wow, this is ridiculous.

I am a proud vegetarian.
You can chew on whatever shit you want but I choose myself what I eat. :p

There is a difference between vegetarian and vegan. Vegetarians shun meat, which is entirely reasonable, after all the crap we put in our meat as of late. I myself am actually leaning towards going vegetarian. Vegans are who confuse me, those who won't eat anything that isn't a liquid. They scare me and confuse me.

I'm also a vegetarian.

When I eat out, I can eat out for less than what most meat-lover do because my food is cheaper because there is no meat in involved. Plus, I also know that what I'm eating won't be infected with any one of today's popular diseases like BSE and avian flu. :D

Why am I a vegetarian? I hate the taste of meat, but in either case, I still believe: SCREW ANIMAL RIGHTS! The only right they have is to be eaten.

I don't get it. Vegitarians are among the luckiest of the few million people who are put into a world where food is everywhere.
really? people living in india are among the luckiest billion? last i heard, they have a large vegetarian population...

And yet, they refuse to eat meat. They claim that eating meat is evil. They claim that meat is intoxicating.
belonging to the group of "they" i will tell you that i have made no such claims.

They say no thanks to food. Food is something that people would kill for. Food is a privelige (sp), not something that HAS TO be given to you.
and i eat a greater variety of food now than i did when i ate meat. what's your point? it's a lot cheaper, healthier and yummier to make a taco with chickpeas and cumin than it is to make it with beef.

I just don't understand it. I emphasize with atheists now when they say they don't understand why we believe in a God. VEGITARIANS DON'T MAKE SENSE!
you are aware that if everyone in north america cut their meat consumption by 10%, we could feed 100,000 more people, right?

you are aware that the standard north american diet includes way too much meat, right?

you are aware that the food pyramid is actually telling you you need more meat than you do, right?

you are aware that an excess of meat and lack of fibre in your diet has been linked to colon cancer and kidney problems, right?

you are aware that animals are slaughtered in horribly cuel manners, even though there are supposed to be safeguards to protect them from cruelty. (ever hear about the inspection at a slaughterhouse where the inspectors found a cow still conscious, hanging from a hook, slowly bleeding to death)

you are also aware that much meat consumed is injected with antibiotics, hormones and all sorts of things i'm sure you wouldn't want to eat, right?

When we take communion we accept Christ's body and his blood.
It is God's will take we partake of the flesh.
Vegitarians are sinners, and are doomed to spend an eternity in Hell.
So sayeth the Lord


Lol wow of all the reasons I'm going to hell (there are a few) this has to be the strangest. So vegitarians are being condemned to hell for not giving into a temptation?

Vegans are who confuse me, those who won't eat anything that isn't a liquid. They scare me and confuse me.
vegans do not consume anything that comes from an animal.

no meat, no dairy, no eggs. it is an extremely difficult diet to maintain from what i hear.

i've never heard of this liquid only thing...

Lol wow of all the reasons I'm going to hell (there are a few) this has to be the strangest. So vegitarians are being condemned to hell for not giving into a temptation?
Ironic in a sick kind of way.

The most famous vegetarian that I can think of is .........Adolph Hitler.

No further comment needed.
hitler wasn't a vegetian.

his doctor ordered him to a vegetarian diet because he couldn't digest meat propely. he cheated on this diet frequently... and as a result was rather flatulant from what i hear.

However in the long term and in some climates it is not as ecologically sound to grow crops.
it's a lot more ecologically sound than say, grazing cattle at the edge of the sahara causing it to expand...

I'd just hope that your position on preventing suffering goes farther than just the animals, and you invest more of your energy on helping your fellow human beings.

Of course we do. Why does everyone assume that vegetarianism means "animals first"? Especially since so many vegetarians believe in the diet largely for its beneficial effects on human hunger and the environment?

There is a difference between vegetarian and vegan. Vegetarians shun meat, which is entirely reasonable, after all the crap we put in our meat as of late. I myself am actually leaning towards going vegetarian. Vegans are who confuse me, those who won't eat anything that isn't a liquid. They scare me and confuse me.

You seem a bit confused about what it means to be vegan.

While vegetarians exclude the flesh of animals from their diet, vegans try to exclude animal products altogether. This means milk and eggs, gelatin, and even honey for some.

I was vegan for about two years... and with the exception of cheese and milk chocolate, I didn't really miss a whole lot. I also never felt healthier. Of course, it's hard to eat out, and getting/making anything interesting can be a bit expensive... so for the time being I am just vegetarian. However, while I don't mind milk or eggs as ingredients in things, I never drink milk or just eat cooked eggs. I also don't eat any gelatin.

hitler wasn't a vegetian.

No... but Einstein was. :D

"God is something that people would kill for"


Yanno, I think that's the problem with the world. Well...one of them.

Vegetarians have many different reasons for not eating meat. I personally think that if I dont have to kill something in order to survive than I shouldnt. I dont whine about it though. It's my choice and I'm not telling you what to eat. I'm sorry but if you're not a vegetarian, or you dont know a little more about the vegetarian mentality then you really should just shut up. I realize that the whole vegetarianism has been drastically associated with peace, love, and general hippiness but in all actuallity (sp) its about choosing whether to murder or not. It's no different from choosing your opinion on abortion. And I dont want to start an argument about that I was just trying to get my point across. also, I dont know if anyone has made this point as I only read the first page and got so angry that I decided I had to say something. I shall now continue reading it.

Neither vegatarianism or anti-vegetarianism will help feed starving people. The truth is that there is more than enough food for everyone on the Earth, it is just that some people are too poor to buy food.

As for my views on vegetarianism, it isn't a netritionally sount diet. There are some essential nutrients that are best obtained from meat products. Diets lacking red meat have been shown can cause anemia due to iron defiency, for example. A balanced, healthy diet is important. Leaving out an entire food group isn't conducive to balance.

Umm...I don't eat meat because I don't like how it tastes. I went to a summer camp about 5 years ago and signed up for the vegetarian option because from previous experience I knew it was much better than the regular stuff. I stuck with it, even though I could have moved over to the normal line, not only because I got my food much quicker but because I *loved* the food. No more chewy chicken breast, greasy heart-attack-on-bun hamburgers, or mystery meatloaf. I'm a vegetarian because I just believe that it's healthier than the current American diet. Sure, I could have kept eating meat but only eat lean things, or limited myself to fish and chicken, but that's a slippery slope. First a cut of salmon and next thing you know I'm back at McDonald's. I honestly think there's something addictive about fast food; I live down the street from a Jack in the Box and whenever I drive past, I still get hamburger cravings. This is after not eating a single piece of meat for over 5 years. Plus if I simply tell people I don't eat meat at all, they don't try to convince me "well, if you eat chicken, why not pork? It's white meat too..." and that whole line of reasoning. Yes, it's better for the planet, I don't like the whole animal cruelty thing (anyone read Fast Food Nation? yikes...), Americans eat too much red meat, etc etc, but for me it's a very personal thing. I won't go on an anti meat crusade if you don't start ranting in my face about me being a tree huggy flaming pinko hippy or whatever.

Neither vegatarianism or anti-vegetarianism will help feed starving people. The truth is that there is more than enough food for everyone on the Earth, it is just that some people are too poor to buy food.

If you reduce the strain on agricultural land (from livestock feed), you make agricultural products a lot cheaper. Cheap enough for more people to buy... cheap enough for even poor governments to buy for them.

As for my views on vegetarianism, it isn't a netritionally sount diet.

That's nonsense. Plenty of nutritionists prescribe it. Doctors prescribe it for people with certain conditions. Hell, way back in 1980 my mother asked her doctor if she should eat meat during her pregnancy (with me)... He said she was just fine as a vegetarian.

There are some essential nutrients that are best obtained from meat products.

Anything you can get from meat, you can get from plants. Where do you think the cows got it?

Diets lacking red meat have been shown can cause anemia due to iron defiency, for example.

Only if you don't know how to balance your vegetarian diet.

Even protein is better obtained from plants... Since the proteins humans need are not the same as those produced by animals, our bodies have to first break down animal proteins into the individual amino acids. A balanced vegetarian diet provides the raw amino acids with no extra work.

Here's a fun thing to do: if you have any vegetarian friends or acquaintances, and happen to be at their place for dinner, be sure to loudly request that they cook you a meat based dish, because you just know if the roles were reversed, they'd be demanding you serve them a vegetarian dish. :p

Look, like I said initially, I don't have any real problems with vegetarians and their diet choice, so long as they don't get in my face about what I eat. ;)

Er...are you joking? You do know that it is a LOT more efficient to grow crops than to farm livestock, right? So the old "starving children in Africa" argument doesn't quite work.
To be fair yes if all the food you need is local to get everything you need ... otherwise you have to ship it which is an energy and money cost involved (that and some animals graze rather then the fed kind so that people do not expend energy making the ground sutable for planting)

it all depends on what you grow ... wheat has a high return so does soy ... if I remember right corn is lower ... potatos are good but hard to harvest in comparison so on and so forth

And geting a balanced diet takes a lot of different things (specialy if vegitarian)

Hency why it is as expensive really as an omnivorous diet (usualy ... specialy up north when we only get the basics such as wheat and corn and such localy)

I've actually known some vegetarians who drink alcohol (in excess) and smoke cigarettes, then have the gaul to still give the "healthy lifestyle" sermon because of their diet...weird, huh?

Here's a fun thing to do: if you have any vegetarian friends or acquaintances, and happen to be at their place for dinner, be sure to loudly request that they cook you a meat based dish, because you just know if the roles were reversed, they'd be demanding you serve them a vegetarian dish. :p
;)

I assume you're just being funny, but I'll respond anyways because there are those out there who would do this in all seriousness...

I respect the fact that the vast majority of Americans eat meat. That said, my friends and family members respect the fact that I do not. When they invite me over, they make sure they have something on hand that I can eat. It's just the same as with my meat-eating uncle, who cannot eat a lot of specific foods (such as wheat, I think) due to a digestive condition. If I am going somewhere where the host does not know me that well and may not be aware of my vegetarianism, I bring along a couple granola bars or something that I can surreptitiously eat, or have a small meal beforehand. Then I just eat side dishes and politely decline the entree. Simple as that. And when my meat-eating friends come over, I have no problem in serving them meat. I respect their wishes just as they respect mine. :)

It's when people are rude about that I get annoyed, as in when I was at a pizza place the other day and asked if a type of pizza had meat on it (it appeared to be covered in shredded cheddar cheese). The guy behind the counter replied with more than a bit of attitude that "what do you mean, that's our hot wing pizza, it's covered in chicken" *he and the other pizza guy snicker at me*. And in my defense, everyone else with me, including the meat eaters, agreed it looked like it was just a cheese pizza...

Forget the throat-slitter, there has been liberal use of the throat-rammer in this thread!

A red-blooded carnviore saying that vegetarianism is stupid is just as bad as a militant vegetarian saying that it's immoral to eat meat.

Kinda like religeon, I don't care what wierd things you believe, just don't tell me I'm wrong for not being the same.

Lol wow of all the reasons I'm going to hell (there are a few) this has to be the strangest. So vegitarians are being condemned to hell for not giving into a temptation?

It is not too late for you seek forgiveness.
Confess ALL your sins now and there may still be a place for
you when Rapture occurs.
Accept the flesh, and prepare for the second coming.

If you insist on refusing animal meat, try fish. Fish are acceptable
as Jesus served fish to the multitude.

If you reduce the strain on agricultural land (from livestock feed), you make agricultural products a lot cheaper. Cheap enough for more people to buy... cheap enough for even poor governments to buy for them.


Actually, no. It isn't a supply and demand issue. The supply is greater than the demand. massive amounts of Food go to waste every day. It is simply that those who control the food industry choose to set prices that make it impossible for some people to eat because doing so allows them to maximize profits.

It is not too late for you seek forgiveness.
Confess ALL your sins now and there may still be a place for
you when Rapture occurs.
Accept the flesh, and prepare for the second coming.

If you insist on refusing animal meat, try fish. Fish are acceptable
as Jesus served fish to the multitude.

Hmmm but what if I forget a sin. Then all that repenting would be for nothing as I would still come up short. Ahhhh I think I'll just live life and worry about the afterlife after life.

I dislike:

1. "Moral" Vegetarians. The ones who don't eat meat because they see eating meat as murder. This pisses me off in the same way anticapitalists see ownership/property as theft. MEAT WAS ALREADY DEAD, no one today has animals killed solely for their particular order at a restaraunt or grocery market. (Similarly, ITS ALREADY MINE, I didn't steal something just because I have it.)

I like:

2. Meat. I don't care how efficient it is. I'm human. I like eating meat.

I dislike:

1. "Moral" Vegetarians. The ones who don't eat meat because they see eating meat as murder. This pisses me off in the same way anticapitalists see ownership/property as theft. MEAT WAS ALREADY DEAD, no one today has animals killed solely for their particular order at a restaraunt or grocery market. (Similarly, ITS ALREADY MINE, I didn't steal something just because I have it.)

I like:

2. Meat. I don't care how efficient it is. I'm human. I like eating meat.

You are free to do as you wish. I would never accuse you of murder or say that everything belongs to mother nature. I would appreciate if you didn't think you had a right to tell me how I should feel.

Hmmm but what if I forget a sin. Then all that repenting would be for nothing as I would still come up short. Ahhhh I think I'll just live life and worry about the afterlife after life.

You Heretics always have an excuse for living your Godless ways.

Lord High Protector - I'd really appreciate it if you didn't keep on ramming your religion down my throat.

President of the local chapter of Carnivores R Us

Actually, no. It isn't a supply and demand issue. The supply is greater than the demand. massive amounts of Food go to waste every day. It is simply that those who control the food industry choose to set prices that make it impossible for some people to eat because doing so allows them to maximize profits.

Sounds like something that can be fixed to me.

Personally, i just feel that if animals weren't so tasty, i'd have no reason to eat them. Beyond that, i wouldn't dare fly in the face of my ancestors, who scrabbled their way to the top of the food chain so i could live a passively omnivorous life. The only reason i have to become a vegitarian is my undying hatred for plants.

Lord High Protector - I'd really appreciate it if you didn't keep on ramming your religion down my throat.

President of the local chapter of Carnivores R Us

2 posts in an evening is ramming?
Well pardon me for having an opinion on the subject.

I'll tell you a story: I used to work weekends as a security guard on a mill site that was being demolished. Up the road was a very large abbatoir and meatpacking plant. Every night I'd make my way there, there was a pervasive odour of...pig. Pork. Ham. Bacon. Whatever it was, it was essence of pig.

It struck me as being odd because there wasn't any cooking done on the premises, just butchery. One morning after working the night shift, I met my sister-in-law and her boyfriend for breakfast at a greasy spoon diner a little further than my usual walk to the subway.

I forgot Mike was a vegetarian - he made himself happy with the menu, I didn't notice the absence of meat on his plate - but when my sister-in-law asked about my experiences working in such an odd place, I mentioned the smell right away.

Mike chimed in rather intensely, 'that smell is the smell of their fear. They know what's going to happen and they get scared and that smell is the smell of hundreds of pigs' adrenaline running.

I replied without thinking, 'that's a helluva lousy evolutionary trait, then isn't it? Getting scared and smelling just like delicious, crispy bacon and pork chops? It wouldn't act to deter me in the right circumstances'

Mike looked like he was going to choke. My sister-in-law choked with laughter, anyway.

Eat a Vegan!

Here's a fun thing to do: if you have any vegetarian friends or acquaintances, and happen to be at their place for dinner, be sure to loudly request that they cook you a meat based dish, because you just know if the roles were reversed, they'd be demanding you serve them a vegetarian dish. :p

Look, like I said initially, I don't have any real problems with vegetarians and their diet choice, so long as they don't get in my face about what I eat. ;)

Whenever a meat eating friend of mine comes over I gladly offer to order them a meat pizza/ meat whatever I'm getting, I don't cook, but once I do I'd be glad to make them a meat dish... where's the beef? (ok bad pun, but still)

I've actually known some vegetarians who drink alcohol (in excess) and smoke cigarettes, then have the gaul to still give the "healthy lifestyle" sermon because of their diet...weird, huh?

I drink, and smoke cigarettes and pot... but I don't try to give the healthy lifestyle sermon.

That said however, I love it when exactly the opposite happens. Half of my friends wonder how I live on no meat, yet they're snorting coke on weekends and eat only junk food...

So tell me, your country is locked in a war in which food has been in shortage for many years. You family manages to get hold of a small chicken.

Would you eat it?

I dislike:

1. "Moral" Vegetarians. The ones who don't eat meat because they see eating meat as murder. This pisses me off in the same way anticapitalists see ownership/property as theft. MEAT WAS ALREADY DEAD, no one today has animals killed solely for their particular order at a restaraunt or grocery market. (Similarly, ITS ALREADY MINE, I didn't steal something just because I have it.)

C'mon, man. I like meat, but that line of reasoning is just wrong. The animal was killed for you so that you could eat it. It doesn't make any difference that you don't pick out the swine yourself, you create the demand and endorse it by eating the produce.

Theres a lot of fuzzy logic here along the lines of "oh, my ancestors did it" and so on which is needless. There is no cruelty in the production of [free range] meat, so there is no problem. QED.

That's not the point. Even if none of the land used to support livestock can be farmed for food crops, how about the land currently used to produce livestock feed crops?

You misunderstand me. I was referring to eating/raising/hunting meat in general. I was not trying to defend modern cattle or chicken 'plants' (I refuse to call them farms). The fact is though, that a cow, sheep, goat, or chicken can be raised on land that will not support growing crops, and can be raised without buying feed (or growing your own) from third world nations.

No more so than existing farms. So what is your point?

That it is much easier (less labor intensive) to put a cow out to pasture and let it eat grass, or to hunt the occasional free ungulent than it is to actively manage a farm capable of feeding your family well without any meat to back fill needed protein/calories.

Hmmm... Maybe if we had more land to produce crops, we would need fewer pesticides and fertilizers to keep up production?

You have probably noticed that vegetarians are, often enough, the ones supporting the organic foods industry.

But free range cattle (or deer, or elk, or buffalo, etc) who aren't force fed corn require no pesticides or fertilizers to raise, just a good sized and divided pasture on rotation. The pasture can even be done on land that won't grown anything but the grasses and weeds that the cow naturally eats anyway.

- Finally (and most compellingly) why does a nice juicy steak taste so good, while lentils are like something that came out of a baby's nappy?

Not that I don't love a juicy steak, but if your lentils taste bad, it's becuase you aren't cooking them right. Lentils are good.

Not that I don't love a juicy steak, but if your lentils taste bad, it's becuase you aren't cooking them right. Lentils are good.
no they are not :p (sorry dont like lentils lol)

no they are not :p (sorry dont like lentils lol)


Bah! There is no accounting for taste.

Bah! There is no accounting for taste.
My thoughts exactly :p

I think you should fire your cook. Lentils are kind of like some mushrooms in that they take on the flavor of the stuff around them. They soak it up like a sponge in fact, so much so that you pretty much HAVE to over season them.

Then again, I won't eat mushrooms, even the one's I can't taste, so I kinda see your point.

I think you should fire your cook. Lentils are kind of like some mushrooms in that they take on the flavor of the stuff around them. They soak it up like a sponge in fact, so much so that you pretty much HAVE to over season them.

Then again, I won't eat mushrooms, even the one's I can't taste, so I kinda see your point.
LOL same here not a mushroom sort of guy ... :) if I was vegitarian I would have to survive on grains letus and peanut butter :p

LOL same here not a mushroom sort of guy ... :) if I was vegitarian I would have to survive on grains letus and peanut butter :p

I am a very picky eater. I went vegetarian once. I lasted about a month and a half before I found my self eating meat and not realizing it.

I am trying to go to an all raw food diet, but my wife won't let me eat my bacon right out of the package anymore after watching me do it the first time.

So tell me, your country is locked in a war in which food has been in shortage for many years. You family manages to get hold of a small chicken.

Would you eat it?

If I need it to survive, yes. If you mean my family is excited over this "luxury", then no. (Hard to imagine how that would happen... my whole family is vegetarian.)

You misunderstand me. I was referring to eating/raising/hunting meat in general. I was not trying to defend modern cattle or chicken 'plants' (I refuse to call them farms). The fact is though, that a cow, sheep, goat, or chicken can be raised on land that will not support growing crops, and can be raised without buying feed (or growing your own) from third world nations.

Okay, then. I prefer free-range livestock to those huge industrial farms. Although on principle I think you should only eat meat that you or an immediate acquaintance have hunted and killed. I think that is the only circumstance in which the "food chain" argument works.

That it is much easier (less labor intensive) to put a cow out to pasture and let it eat grass, or to hunt the occasional free ungulent than it is to actively manage a farm capable of feeding your family well without any meat to back fill needed protein/calories.

Well, if all you're doing is letting it out to pasture to see what nature does to it... Yeah. But if all of our cattle farms take up that model, you're going to significantly reduce meat output anyway -- so fine with me, it's a start. But so what if agriculture is more labor-intensive? I fail to see how this is an argument against additional agriculture.

Warning - This link is NOT meant for those who feel sick when looking at starving children (http://images.google.com/images?q=starving&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search)

I don't get it. Vegitarians are among the luckiest of the few million people who are put into a world where food is everywhere. And yet, they refuse to eat meat. They claim that eating meat is evil. They claim that meat is intoxicating.

They say no thanks to food. Food is something that people would kill for. Food is a privelige (sp), not something that HAS TO be given to you.

I just don't understand it. I emphasize with atheists now when they say they don't understand why we believe in a God. VEGITARIANS DON'T MAKE SENSE!


*Vegitarian (sp?)

I haven't quite made it through all the posts, but:

Colodia, do you really think that vegetarians are all just rich white folk in the "first world". Are you unaware that many Hindus are vegetarians by faith? As are Jains, and many Buddhists? As well, millions of people in the developing world choose to be vegetarian for personal reasons. The number of vegetarians in 'poor' nations who are so by choice VASTLY outnumber those in the West. So you don't want to stop eating meat. Neither do I. No one is forcing us to.

even by the geiser up there who has some disease. I assume you mean me when you say that, yes? Note: I think you mean 'a disease', or possibly 'some diseases', though that seems unlikely.

Are you people in some way retarded. Get it through your heads, some people just dont like meat, some people don't like eating cheese off the ground, but because you do does that mean I should. This isn't a topic of argument it's a topic based around some guy who thinks everyone should walk, talk and act like him and eat what he wants. Get over it guys, some people don't eat meat, maybe its the flavour, animal cruelty, land production and religion. Fuck.

Dude, no offence, but I think you have some kind of problem. Every single post I have read by you has been a furious response to something else, and most of them are unconnected, and I'm sure one or two contradict each other. Maybe you just like being the wronged minority? I don't know.

And, also, I don't think I actually said that no one should be vegetarian. I said that I didn't understand vegetarians, and that I hold a grudge against them, because I am petty and because they voluntarily *choose* to restrict their diets, when people like me *have* to. Despite this, I have several close friends who are vegetarians, one who is a vegan, and even more who are 'vegetarians that eat fish' - you can ask them, if you like, but I have not yet beaten them up and such because they dislike the taste of meat, have peculiar religions, feel strongly about animal cruelty (and yet wear leather coats and shoes, and one owns a very tasteful suede bag - the vegan, strangely enough, but she says it was a gift.) or the various other reasons.

I am aware that they do not eat meat and I do and think that us meat eaters are slightly immoral for doing so, and they are aware that I and a few others of our friends do not get vegetarianism, and think it is slightly... well, weird (no better word).

Also, your last sentence there? It's a good use of a minor sentence, there's something very melodramatic about it (good way), but maybe it was unneccessary? I mean, surely if you're allowed to express your own opinion so freely, then doesn't it make sense that people with the opposite point of view can express their opinions also?

Not that I don't love a juicy steak, but if your lentils taste bad, it's becuase you aren't cooking them right. Lentils are good.

I'll tell you what, lentils are great with sausages.

Warning - This link is NOT meant for those who feel sick when looking at starving children (http://images.google.com/images?q=starving&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search)

I don't get it. Vegitarians are among the luckiest of the few million people who are put into a world where food is everywhere. And yet, they refuse to eat meat. They claim that eating meat is evil. They claim that meat is intoxicating.

They say no thanks to food. Food is something that people would kill for. Food is a privelige (sp), not something that HAS TO be given to you.

I just don't understand it. I emphasize with atheists now when they say they don't understand why we believe in a God. VEGITARIANS DON'T MAKE SENSE!


*Vegitarian (sp?)Ah, one of you who understands somewhat! Do keep that in mind. Personally, I'm a corpse-picking omnivore (which probably explains my unusual affinity for scavenger species). I eat what first catches my eye, and I eat gluttonously and still somehow manage to remain at middle weight, possibly because I have dogs and do enough horseplay with them that I manage to stay fit. The key here is that humans like eating meat, and until better and cheaper substitutes come along, they'll always eat meat. If the vegans really wanted to put a halt to omnivory, PETA and other such organizations would throw all of their funds into developing economical and safe meat substitutes that look and taste just like the real thing. People very rarely go to the trouble of buying an actual steak because it's expensive and a bitch to cook, plus that you have to pony up real money to get fresh meat off of locally-raised livestock (which I prefer to do in part because they are raised more humanely but mostly because the stuff you get from grocers tastes like duckshit). Therefore, a really good and inexpensive meat substitute would quickly replace real meat in processed foods like hotdogs and give the companies a whole new demographic to profit from (which is larger than one might think because there are millions of people with vegetarian mindsets who never completely give up their meats).

Unfortunately, many animal rights organizations defend the "sanctity of nature" more ferociously than numbskull Christians defend the "sanctity of marriage" and with as little regard for the welfare of actual, living human beings. Therefore, they are unlikely to take advantage of modern technology in order to meet this end.

after being a meat-eater for most of my life, and then working in produce for a year...I'm still a meat-eater. When people talk about meat having chemical enhancements, they really should take a look at what's being sprayed on their vegetables too. As sort of a human supremacist, I don't much care about the suffering of the lower life forms, outside of the most intense cruelties which have nothing to do with food or medecine. Vegetables, to me, have an unimpressive taste and a litany of textures which I find unsavoury. I'll stick to meat, bread, milk, juice, and snacks, with special allocation for massive quantities of potato products.

after being a meat-eater for most of my life, and then working in produce for a year...I'm still a meat-eater. When people talk about meat having chemical enhancements, they really should take a look at what's being sprayed on their vegetables too. As sort of a human supremacist, I don't much care about the suffering of the lower life forms, outside of the most intense cruelties which have nothing to do with food or medecine. Vegetables, to me, have an unimpressive taste and a litany of textures which I find unsavoury. I'll stick to meat, bread, milk, juice, and snacks, with special allocation for massive quantities of potato products.Infidel! Learn to cook collard and mustard greens! They taste incredible! Besides spinach, however, those are nearly the only greens I actually like aside from munching on jumbo bags of crisp and tasty lettuce every once in a while, though I do eat them in hefty amounts. Hey, absolute omnivore here. I've never tried something that I didn't like at least a little, and I try a lot of things.

The most famous vegetarian that I can think of is .........Adolph Hitler.

No further comment needed.

The most famous meat eater I can think of was Jeffrey Dahmer.

Infidel! Learn to cook collard and mustard greens! They taste incredible! Besides spinach, however, those are nearly the only greens I actually like aside from munching on jumbo bags of crisp and tasty lettuce every once in a while, though I do eat them in hefty amounts. Hey, absolute omnivore here. I've never tried something that I didn't like at least a little, and I try a lot of things.

Acutally, several plants from the spinach family, including spinach, irritate my skin. These are the things you discover when you have to arrange it at four in the morning.

Alright, you veggie sissy-boys and -girls. I just wanted to write in to let you know that, as a red-blooded American, I only eat the meat of apex predators. Wolves, bears, tuna, a little lion sometimes. Good stuff like that. I don't eat any second rate goat or pig. I only et what ets the pigs. This means every pound of lion flesh I stuff down my gullet is worth somewhere between one hundred and one thousand pounds of grain. And every bite is smooth and classy as a big old Cadillac de Ville. I'm doing the work of a thousand vegetarians! Here in America, we don't take kindly to you Prius driving, SmartDog-fellating ecomos complaining about a nice cut of lion steak. You all must have never played any sports as kids. Your parents should have done more to cultivate a healthy interest in competitive eating when you were young.

C'mon, man. I like meat, but that line of reasoning is just wrong. The animal was killed for you so that you could eat it.

It was killed for the general public so that the general public could eat it. Perhaps if the general public chose not to eat it, and I was some sort of last holdout, then I could accept blame for the animal's death. (Every tasty bite.)

It doesn't make any difference that you don't pick out the swine yourself, you create the demand and endorse it by eating the produce.

The general public's demands are the only ones that matter, a single individual's is only as important as that single individual's economic impact. And so what if I do endorse it?

Theres a lot of fuzzy logic here along the lines of "oh, my ancestors did it" and so on which is needless. There is no cruelty in the production of [free range] meat, so there is no problem. QED.

I never said anything about ancestors doing it, did I? And I know I said nothing about cruelty in meat production.

Okay, then. I prefer free-range livestock to those huge industrial farms. Although on principle I think you should only eat meat that you or an immediate acquaintance have hunted and killed. I think that is the only circumstance in which the "food chain" argument works.

It is the point which I am trying to get to. To only eat food I raised, hunted, or grew myself. It's pretty freaking hard to do with a regular job though.

Well, if all you're doing is letting it out to pasture to see what nature does to it... Yeah. But if all of our cattle farms take up that model, you're going to significantly reduce meat output anyway -- so fine with me, it's a start. But so what if agriculture is more labor-intensive? I fail to see how this is an argument against additional agriculture.

I am not arguing against additional agriculture. I am not arguing against vegetarianism (or veganism). I was arguing against your (or whoever it was that initially started this discussion) logic that made growing crops out to be much more effecient than raising cattle (or other animals), when in fact it isn't (except when you are comparing a VERY highly orginized farm to a Feed-lot cattle plant or something similar).

Hell, I am all for people being vegetarians or vegans if they want to. Bully for them. I was just saying that the argument that, "X amount of land can feed 5x the herbivores as it can omnivores," is a statement that needs to be made with some signifigant caveats.

When we take communion we accept Christ's body and his blood.
It is God's will take we partake of the flesh.
Vegitarians are sinners, and are doomed to spend an eternity in Hell.
So sayeth the Lord

Spoken like a good Catholic. If you recall the creation story, we were made to be vegetarian. God didn't tell people to eat meat until after the flood. The prophecies in Isaiah make it clear that even carnivorous animals like lions will return to being vegetarian in the earth made new. Note also, that John the Baptist and Daniel, Shadrach, Mishach and Abednego, were all vegetarian and in the latter 4 examples they came out in 10 times better health and intelligence than their peers.

That disparity may be hard to reproduce scientifically at the present time, but meat eating has been linked to cancer, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, obesity, early onset mensturation along with several neurological disorders, which would tend to suggest that a vegetarian diet when done properly, may well be the healthiest way to live.

As some have already noted, it is also far less expensive and more efficient to grow and store crops than livestock.

I'll tell you what, lentils are great with sausages.

I make a really great paste (I can't think of a better word) that is made from lentils, split peas, chicken, rice, and mixed vegitables with garlic and olive oil.

Great stuff. Even great cold the next day.

Makes your ass a air cannon.

Oh, I forgot to mention, I'm currently on a 6 week, juiced fruits and vegetables to purify my system and lose a little weight. I'm not completely vegetarian, and there are some very justifeable reasons to be a carnivor under the right circumstances, but, particularly in the North America and Europe, it is unnecessary to be a carnivore for most people.

Vegetarians should hunt.

Warning - This link is NOT meant for those who feel sick when looking at starving children (http://images.google.com/images?q=starving&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search)

I don't get it. Vegitarians are among the luckiest of the few million people who are put into a world where food is everywhere. And yet, they refuse to eat meat. They claim that eating meat is evil. They claim that meat is intoxicating.

They say no thanks to food. Food is something that people would kill for. Food is a privelige (sp), not something that HAS TO be given to you.

I just don't understand it. I emphasize with atheists now when they say they don't understand why we believe in a God. VEGITARIANS DON'T MAKE SENSE!


*Vegitarian (sp?)

are you 7 years old?

Vegetarians should hunt.

Been there... done that... didn't like it much... won't do it again unless I'm starving.

I am not arguing against additional agriculture. I am not arguing against vegetarianism (or veganism). I was arguing against your (or whoever it was that initially started this discussion) logic that made growing crops out to be much more effecient than raising cattle (or other animals), when in fact it isn't

yes actually it is

the food and water that they give cattle to raise them (whether on land that grows somethgn or not) can feed several times more people than those cattle.

at least thats what logic would seem to dictate

yes actually it is

the food and water that they give cattle to raise them (whether on land that grows somethgn or not) can feed several times more people than those cattle.

at least thats what logic would seem to dictate

What kind of food do cattle eat again?

lol we should all eat grass and hay!

okay the water they feed them could grow much more food than the cattle themselves produce

Hell, I am all for people being vegetarians or vegans if they want to. Bully for them. I was just saying that the argument that, "X amount of land can feed 5x the herbivores as it can omnivores," is a statement that needs to be made with some signifigant caveats.

Well, the real evidence comes into play when you look at how much water it takes to produce a pound of steak versus a pound of grain. (I forget the exact numbers, but without exaggeration it takes on the order of 5000 times as much water.) There are similar figures with respect to other resources, as well... but it's been too long. I forget the exact numbers.

Well, the real evidence comes into play when you look at how much water it takes to produce a pound of steak versus a pound of grain. (I forget the exact numbers, but without exaggeration it takes on the order of 5000 times as much water.) There are similar figures with respect to other resources, as well... but it's been too long. I forget the exact numbers.

There aren't any caveats. Figuring the use of arable land, water, fertilizer, and labor, each pound of beef raised using the techniques employed in America today could instead be 10 pounds of grains. The reason for this is that open range cattle are a small percentage of American beef compared to feed lot cattle. Feed lot cattle aren't given hay. They are as likely to be given grains or corn. You want to check these numbers, look into Harper's. Last July, or thereabouts, they had a piece on the weaknesses of American agriculture. Or read Fast Food Nation. There are a hundred pages on how beef is raised.

There aren't any caveats. Figuring the use of arable land, water, fertilizer, and labor, each pound of beef raised using the techniques employed in America today could instead be 10 pounds of grains. The reason for this is that open range cattle are a small percentage of American beef compared to feed lot cattle. Feed lot cattle aren't given hay. They are as likely to be given grains or corn. You want to check these numbers, look into Harper's. Last July, or thereabouts, they had a piece on the weaknesses of American agriculture. Or read Fast Food Nation. There are a hundred pages on how beef is raised.

Yep, sounds about right. :D


By the way, I disagree with all of these people who cop out and say, "Oh sure, I cook meat if my non-vegetarian friends come over."

No way. If we go out, they can order whatever they want -- although if they are real friends they will try to pick a restaurant with a decent vegetarian selection. If we order food for delivery, I don't care what their order is -- although if we're sharing a pizza, there can be no meat.

If my friends invite me to their homes for a meal, they are considerate enough to offer a vegetarian option. Most of the time, they just plan a whole meal that is vegetarian, seeing as they also enjoy vegetarian foods (like spinach lasagna) in addition to their favorite meaty dishes.

They do this because I do not eat meat. It is a lifestyle decision, and they respect that.

But if I have people over to my house and I cook, I make vegetarian food -- which they eat and enjoy.

For them to come over and demand burgers would be just as bad as me going to their homes and saying, "Lasagna? I was really in the mood for manicotti. Why don't you make some?"

There aren't any caveats. Figuring the use of arable land, water, fertilizer, and labor, each pound of beef raised using the techniques employed in America today could instead be 10 pounds of grains. The reason for this is that open range cattle are a small percentage of American beef compared to feed lot cattle. Feed lot cattle aren't given hay. They are as likely to be given grains or corn. You want to check these numbers, look into Harper's. Last July, or thereabouts, they had a piece on the weaknesses of American agriculture. Or read Fast Food Nation. There are a hundred pages on how beef is raised.
Last time I checked, I had heard it was more than 10 pounds of grain, but I'm nowhere near certain on that fact.

I'm thinking about going vegetarian, in a combination of ethical issues, price, and my own health. Unfortunately, I'm really lazy and can't bring myself to do it for some odd reason or other. Although, I figure that I've been eating mostly pasta and vegetables for the past two months, so I'm almost a vegetarian already. So I'm mostly just being a hypocrite, I guess.

Figures.

Since it ended the last debate, I'll do the same for this thread:

As I've stated in another thread, I've only been a full-fledged meat eater for almost three months now.. after 12 years of vegetarianism.
Where I was a believer, I no longer am. I understand (and even commend, if only on the basis of pure intention) the reasoning behind the vegetarian lifestyle.
However, I feel that a lot of it (all of that energy) is misguided (and therefore, unfortunately wasted).
Everyone seems to be focusing on the fact that more food can be provided if people would use the land to grow veggies as opposed to producing livestock.
Fair enough, but so what? We're not hungry because of limited real estate!
There's plenty of room in Africa to grow these vegetables. Where are they?
Why, with all this land isn't it being used for growing crops, enough to feed the multitudes?
Because it's not about meat vs. veggies. It's about poverty.
I shouldn't be commended, really for not doing anything. If so, I should pat myself on the back everyday from refraining from rape and theft. Wow! I'm a hero!
It's easier to not do anything than to get up off your ass and do something.
Actively working for the extinction of hunger in the world (hard, and not very rewarding, but very admirable) is worth more than just refraining from doing something.
You'd be doing far more to ease real suffering in the world if you ate meat and volunteered at the local soup kitchen, rather than just denying yourself meat (or alcohol or tobacco or anything really).
At least be an active veggie and send all that money you save on quality meats to those who need it to eat at all.
Other than that, you're either picky or a health nut. Get active by doing something, not just abstaining from an activity or holding a preference.
Just don't brandish an ethical flag in the name of "passively" saving the world. It aint happenin'.
My love to the veggies, my ex-brethren. Even more love to those who eat meat and act to better the world we live in.

It is about more than just the "hunger" issue... but you should know that.

It is also about the environment. (The beef industry, for example, is the single largest destroyer of rainforests.)

Moreover, most vegetarians (that I know) do not simply adopt the diet as if this were the only thing that could be done (or that they can do). It is merely one component in our active protection of human and animal welfare.

It is about more than just the "hunger" issue... but you should know that.

It is also about the environment. (The beef industry, for example, is the single largest destroyer of rainforests.)
Also about the animal cruelty, in many cases.
Sometimes it's also about health, what with some of the creepy things going on in the beef industry and such.

Want to help the environment leaps and bounds more than not eating meat?
Do what I do, walk everywhere, don't drive a car.

Want to stop animal cruelty? Get a second job and donate the proceeds to your local SPCA. Been there, done that.

If you truly take an active sance on issues (instead of just inactive), then I commend you for what you do.
Not what you refrain from.

Also about the animal cruelty, in many cases.
Sometimes it's also about health, what with some of the creepy things going on in the beef industry and such.
Depending on things like your metabolism, health is a great reason to go veggie (especially if you're fat). Just don't try to include yourself as an activist because you have a healthy lifestyle.

BTW- Nice Front242 sig.

Depending on things like your metabolism, health is a great reason to go veggie (especially if you're fat). Just don't try to include yourself as an activist because you have a healthy lifestyle.
Yeah. I have no idea why the hell I put that in the post, I wasn't thinking too clearly.

BTW- Nice Front242 sig.

*adopts ominous euro-accent*

"Today he has no means
he's alone and anonymous
but written in his cells
he has the mark of the genius
I'm looking for this man
to sell him to other men
to sell him to other men at ten times the price at least
I'm looking for this man
who knows the rules of the game
who's able to forget them to realize my aim
I'm looking for this man to make us rich and famous"

:D

Yay Fronnt 242!
I'm surprised nobody mentioned that to me sooner. I had almost forgotten I had it there!

Yay Fronnt 242!
I'm surprised nobody mentioned that to me sooner. I had almost forgotten I had it there!
I'm an uberfan of Industrial...
Not many of us still around. That's why nobody mentioned it, we're an endangered speices.

I'm an uberfan of Industrial...
Not many of us still around. That's why nobody mentioned it, we're an endangered speices.
They should put rivetheads on the protected list.
Actually, I'm surprised that it's us that are dying off and not everybody else.
:D

May I cut in?

There are many reasons people are vegetarians. Moral reasons ("it's wrong to kill"), economic reasons (it's cheaper to be a vegetarian), health reasons (ever seen a vegetarian die of heart disease?), religious, and, of course, the famous animal abuse reason.

I, personally, am a vegetarian not because I'm up in arms over animal rights, but because it's a lot healthier in today's society.

Thousands of years ago, the human diet consisted of small amounts of lean meat along with basic plants. In order to procure both, large amounts of physical work/labour were required, which resulted in humans burning as much fat/calories as they took in.

However, in today's world, we don't hunt for hours to get some lean venison or spend hours gathering berries; we go down to the supermarket. We have upset the balance between energy intake and energy utilisation. It no longer makes sense for humans to consume meat because meat has far higher concentrations of fat and cholesterol than we need. Plants, far more resource-effective to produce and containing less fat, are the logical choice.

The most famous vegetarian that I can think of is .........Adolph Hitler.

No further comment needed.

Implied logical fallacy. You state that Hitler was a vegetarian, and it is known that Hitler was a...morally questionable person, thus saying that vegetarians are doomed to follow in Hitler's footsteps. A curious argument...

You state that Hitler was a vegetarian, and it is known that Hitler was a...morally questionable person, thus saying that vegetarians are doomed to follow in Hitler's footsteps. A curious argument...

You are reading considerably more than I wrote.

As I have previously said, I made the analogy for three basic reasons.

Hitler was a vegetarian.

He was famous.

I am tired of vegetarians claiming, often with little evidence, that famous people were or are vegetarians, thus claiming their own 'halo" effect. And, of course, there are those who claim that a vegetarian diet makes one calmer, less aggressive, more relaxed etc. I think Hitler does provide a rather good counter to those arguments.

Personally, I eat and enjoy meat. I believe that the existence of your teeth in their present format pretty well shows what they are designed to do. Why argue against millions of years of evolution?

The animals in question are only in existance due to the fact that we humans have farmed them and bred them for meat. If everyone turned vegetarian, we would no longer have any use for pigs, many types of cow would no longer be needed, only those that produce milk and eggs would be required.

Free the cows!

Free the cows!

Free cows.....mmmm, delicious.

Want to help the environment leaps and bounds more than not eating meat?
Do what I do, walk everywhere, don't drive a car.

Want to stop animal cruelty? Get a second job and donate the proceeds to your local SPCA. Been there, done that.

If you truly take an active sance on issues (instead of just inactive), then I commend you for what you do.
Not what you refrain from.

Why not do both?

You are reading considerably more than I wrote.

As I have previously said, I made the analogy for three basic reasons.

Hitler was a vegetarian.

He was famous.

I am tired of vegetarians claiming, often with little evidence, that famous people were or are vegetarians, thus claiming their own 'halo" effect. And, of course, there are those who claim that a vegetarian diet makes one calmer, less aggressive, more relaxed etc. I think Hitler does provide a rather good counter to those arguments.

Personally, I eat and enjoy meat. I believe that the existence of your teeth in their present format pretty well shows what they are designed to do. Why argue against millions of years of evolution?

I argue against millions of years of evolution because I want to and because I can.

I've been a vegetarian for 9 years now and not once have I heard anyone defending vegetarianism as making you less aggressive.... thats just daft.

Plants scream.

Personally, I eat and enjoy meat. I believe that the existence of your teeth in their present format pretty well shows what they are designed to do. Why argue against millions of years of evolution?

The only human teeth that look anything like they were designed for eating meat are the canine teeth. If anything, they look something like an evolutionary after-thought, perhaps to deal with an extended period in which our natural diet was unavailable. Besides which, I am not entirely convinced they are for eating meat... don't plenty of animals have nice big teeth in about those positions that are designed for fighting each other rather than eating a meat diet?

Suppose they were... If humans are designed to fight each other, does that make it right?

Moreover, practically every other aspect of our physiology (e.g. our long intestine) is unfit for the consumption of meat.

Plants scream.
I scream.
You scream.
We all scream.
For ice cream!

Well, the real evidence comes into play when you look at how much water it takes to produce a pound of steak versus a pound of grain. (I forget the exact numbers, but without exaggeration it takes on the order of 5000 times as much water.) There are similar figures with respect to other resources, as well... but it's been too long. I forget the exact numbers.

That too is a misnomer. Water can be recycled (in fact, it naturally is). A well irrigated and well managed farm or cattle ranch can use the the same water over an over again, with losses to the environment recovered from rain and natural watershed.

It's not like you lose the water forever to get the steak (or the corn), and it's not like the process ruins the water so that noone can ever use it again.

There aren't any caveats. Figuring the use of arable land, water, fertilizer, and labor, each pound of beef raised using the techniques employed in America today could instead be 10 pounds of grains. The reason for this is that open range cattle are a small percentage of American beef compared to feed lot cattle. Feed lot cattle aren't given hay. They are as likely to be given grains or corn. You want to check these numbers, look into Harper's. Last July, or thereabouts, they had a piece on the weaknesses of American agriculture. Or read Fast Food Nation. There are a hundred pages on how beef is raised.

The bolding is added. This is exactly the caveat I was trying to point out. The techniques used in America are those designed to maximize the profits of the people producing the food. They are not designed to maximize the food output. If non-arable land, capable of growing only grasses is used to provide all the food for the cattle, and they use either recycled water or natural watersheds for water then that land is INFINITLY more effecient being used as a meat production farm rather than as a plant one (since produce can't be grown on the land and you aren't stealing any water from a farm that is growing produce).

The inequality in their efficiencies is due to profiteering among the major meat producing corporations, not due to anything else.

That too is a misnomer. Water can be recycled (in fact, it naturally is). A well irrigated and well managed farm or cattle ranch can use the the same water over an over again, with losses to the environment recovered from rain and natural watershed.

It's not like you lose the water forever to get the steak (or the corn), and it's not like the process ruins the water so that noone can ever use it again.
It does, however, tie it up for a bit so it can't be used elsewhere...which is the problem. You remove enough water from one area, you'll start running out of water in another.

... they say they don't understand why we believe in a God...
And there it started to make sense. Just wanted to find someone to pick on, hey?

I adore vegetarians, too bad I'm not one of them.

It does, however, tie it up for a bit so it can't be used elsewhere...which is the problem. You remove enough water from one area, you'll start running out of water in another.

~75% of the earth's surface is covered in water. Between .5 and 3% of our atmosphere is water vapor at any given time. Water is in our soil, plants, animals, and our very bodies in enourmous quantities. Water can be manufactured if necessary through a number of various chemical reactions.

You will have to forgive me if I am not overly concerned with the amount a well regulated farm or ranch is using in their recycling process (at least, not as long as it is relatively effecient).

Water is only ever a problem because of weather patterns, natural phenomenon, pollution in the local (or global) environment, and/or poor managment on the part of the local population. It is not ever a problem because bill the cattle farmer down the road has some (in his cows) and is keeping charlie the soy farmer from having it.

The most famous vegetarian that I can think of is .........Adolph Hitler.

No further comment needed.

Um.. Einstein was also and advocated its adoption by others.

Plus, why is it that just because meat is available, I have to eat it? I am a whiner if I don't eat what is in front of me?! Christ, no wonder this country is sooo fat. The FDA has called it an obesity epidemic. Other countries have epidemics of cholera or malaria. America has an epidemic of not being able to keep its mouth shut around food.

Look, there is some lovely crap over there, why don't you go eat it an PROVE your an omnivore? In fact, bugs are higher in protein than the same amount of meat so you can just switch and prove that God truly wants you to CONSUME everything.

Beetles do taste good.

Hmm...I wonder if I could switch from meat to insects....They have better fats in them too.

I wonder what I would need to farm beetles.

~75% of the earth's surface is covered in water. Between .5 and 3% of our atmosphere is water vapor at any given time. Water is in our soil, plants, animals, and our very bodies in enourmous quantities. Water can be manufactured if necessary through a number of various chemical reactions.

You will have to forgive me if I am not overly concerned with the amount a well regulated farm or ranch is using in their recycling process (at least, not as long as it is relatively effecient).

Water is only ever a problem because of weather patterns, natural phenomenon, pollution in the local (or global) environment, and/or poor managment on the part of the local population. It is not ever a problem because bill the cattle farmer down the road has some (in his cows) and is keeping charlie the soy farmer from having it.


Unfortunately the pollution is very expensive to clean out in order to use the water, otherwise the pollutants get into the crops or into the livestock and on up the food chain. Plus if so much water is easily available, why do we even have droughts and deserts?
Because most of it is SALT water, which is great if you are an ocean creature, but sucks if not. You cannot drink it, you will die. You cannot irrigate crops with it, they will wilt and nothing will grow there until you remove the salt. Removing salt from water is costly and there is not much incentive for the rich countries to develop the technology as they are busy trying to privatise the water supplies so that western corporations can make a profit off of it. Which, believe me is a GREAT idea. Look at Bolivia, where the IMF and World Bank mandated that they privatise their water. Before the American company even fuly set up shop water prices rose over 600% and quality fell by half. This caused the price of water to exceed the yearly income of large portions of the country. Finally after several hundred thousand protestors took to the streets, led by a catholic cardinal, the govt. relented and made the water public once again.

There was a comment that 50 vegetarians can be fed from the land that 1 omnivore requires. This is innaccurate. The truth is that for every 5 calories of grain that you give livestock, you only get 2 back. SO it is a losing calculation, but distorting the facts and figures never helps anyone. It only makes the discussion more radical and polarizing.

**I worked in the Meat and Seafood dept. of a natural food store(Wild Oats) and was inundated with statistics and figures from all over the industry**
I think that places me slightly above "kooky vegetarian spirit guru" in terms of opinion. :)

There was a comment that 50 vegetarians can be fed from the land that 1 omnivore requires. This is innaccurate. The truth is that for every 5 calories of grain that you give livestock, you only get 2 back. SO it is a losing calculation, but distorting the facts and figures never helps anyone. It only makes the discussion more radical and polarizing.

All of your first paragraph I agree with, and mentioned even, in not so many words in my last paragraph, if you will reread it.

As to your second paragraph, yes, absolutely. If you feed corn/soy/grain to a cow instead of to a person, you are going to get less food from the meat/fat of the cow than you would just feeding the people corn. It is definately a losing algorythm. However, since you can feed a cow lots of things that humans can't eat, that conveniently enough can be grown where you can't grow corn/soy/grain (or at least not well enough to provide for anyone other than the people growing it) you can create plenty of scenarios where the omnivore lifestyle is much MORE effecient than the vegetarian one.

I am certainly not trying to say that one is 'better' or more moral than the other. I for one could care less what you eat, or how you eat it, as long as I am afforded the same freedoms and opportunities as you.

I am just trying to point out that the efficiency argument from either the staunch carnivore or vegan/vegitarian camp is propaganda and little else.

All of your first paragraph I agree with, and mentioned even, in not so many words in my last paragraph, if you will reread it.

yeah, I wasn't really trying to contradict, just add some points.

However, since you can feed a cow lots of things that humans can't eat, that conveniently enough can be grown where you can't grow corn/soy/grain (or at least not well enough to provide for anyone other than the people growing it) you can create plenty of scenarios where the omnivore lifestyle is much MORE effecient than the vegetarian one.

What types of substances are you talking about? Not edible by humans? Grown in Siberia? The main thing I can think of that cows are fed, that humans wouldn't WANT to eat, is the ground up remains of cows that were slaughtered prematurely for some reason. They say not sick ones, but.... how do we know. The USDA does not check much anymore, they rely on the industry to point out problems. So you want me to point out a problem that will cost be millions?! haha ok, sure thing.
This practice is how Mad Cow Disease is spread. One cow is fed the brains of an infected cow.

That is worth repeating. One cow is fed the infected brains of another cow.

Now, god/nature definitely intended for the cow to be vegetarian, right? So not only do we feed it meat, we make it a cannibal as well.

As well, you need to consider that you are what you eat. So the cow is what it eats and then you eat the cow. Cows naturally eat grass, but we feed them grain and corn to make them fat quicker. The result? A grass fed cow has the roughly the same cholesterol level as fish(very low). While a grain fed cow is more than 20 times higher and is linked to massive levels of heart disease as well as a recent study that showed eating red meat every week increased your chance of colon cancer by 50%. Must be all that wonderfully healthy meat rotting away inside your digestive track

I am certainly not trying to say that one is 'better' or more moral than the other. I for one could care less what you eat, or how you eat it, as long as I am afforded the same freedoms and opportunities as you. .

While from a "health" standpoint some could argue successfully that a vegetarian diet is better. I agree that no one should be forced to do anything. The moral argument has no ground with me as then how many other "morals" will need to be passed into law.

I am just trying to point out that the efficiency argument from either the staunch carnivore or vegan/vegitarian camp is propaganda and little else.

I agree, both camps use propaganda to "prove" their position. Most not based on science at all. Besides we don't need the whole world to be vegetarian to solve some of the problems. just more balance and variety.

Why not do both?
That would be great. But as stated before, I'd commend you for what you do, not what you refrain from.

I agree, both camps use propaganda to "prove" their position. Most not based on science at all. Besides we don't need the whole world to be vegetarian to solve some of the problems. just more balance and variety.

There is no evidence that a cow, raised humanely and dispatched quickly, suffers. That's pretty scientific.

What types of substances are you talking about? Not edible by humans? Grown in Siberia?

Uh, last I checked, humans were incabable of digesting cellulose as well as a lot of other long chain carbohydrates. These are called 'dietary fiber'. Cattle, and other ungulents have specialized digestive systems that are capable of breaking down this course material into shorter and easier to burn sugars (like glucose, frutose, and lactose). It is because of this that Cows are able to eat grasses that humans are incapable of eating (or at least, receiving nourishment from). This means a cow can be raised in an environment that could not support people (because the soil is too poor to grow anything other than grasses and other high fibre foods).

Of course, you probably knew that, but decided to go on a tirade about modern cattle 'farming' practices, which, if you couldn't read between the lines in all my posts, I am also against. The horrendous nature and truths about those practices are arguments against buying from those meat plants, not against eating meat. Free-range/Organic meats are not subject to those treatments, and neither are wild game animals, both of which can be the primary staple in an omnivore(like me)'s diet.

Still stuck on the beetle thing though.

Found a really good article about it here, for anyone else interested...

http://www.hollowtop.com/finl_html/mealworms.htm

Farm animals depend on humans for survival.

Farm animals have lived before humans domesticated them. There are still wild pigs, cows and horses.

Of course, you probably knew that, but decided to go on a tirade about modern cattle 'farming' practices, which, if you couldn't read between the lines in all my posts, I am also against.

Still stuck on the beetle thing though.

Found a really good article about it here, for anyone else interested...

http://www.hollowtop.com/finl_html/mealworms.htm

actually, I did know that, but had a spinal SQL error and couldn't retrieve that fact earlier. :rolleyes: I also am an omnivore. I eat meat sparingly and usually avoid the beef in favor of chicken or even the occasional buffalo patty. But always the natural stuff.

I did go on a little tirade. Most people want to bring in ASPCA humane issues and believe that by refuting the "Moral" argument, that all the modern practices are proven good.

hehe nice article. I don't think I could go there just yet. Maybe if the supermarkets all closed overnight or something.

you're probably the stupidest leader ever. and for that I declare WAR ONTO YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :sniper: :sniper:

Well i'm a vegitarian, and i'll tell you right now: while i care about animal rights, it's a much more selfish reason that. i don't trust most food availible now; i'm one of those annoying health food nuts that only shop at the weird stores.

obviously the facts have already been said ( vegetarians waste less land then meat consumers) The fact that this is being disputed is idiotic in my opinion. I myself am a vegetarian, (Lacto-Ovo-Pesco-Vegetarian to be exact.) I didn't start for moral reason, but for health reasons, and i try to only eat organic seeing as it will preserve our earth unlike the industialized farming industry americans are far too fond of. I don't knock any omnivores but i would like it if you would become educated of the benefits of vegetarianism and to not make ignorant threads like such.... And to the "uber" christian saying "god" made humans to eat meat and will go to "hell" if they don't (Can't people think for themselves anymore or is that what the bible is for) is obviously not very educated, or is just completely brain washed like any other modern christian (yeah i over generalize, i know). just to inform you christianity is not the only religion people follow. have a good day, peace.

Warning - This link is NOT meant for those who feel sick when looking at starving children (http://images.google.com/images?q=starving&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search)

I don't get it. Vegitarians are among the luckiest of the few million people who are put into a world where food is everywhere. And yet, they refuse to eat meat. They claim that eating meat is evil. They claim that meat is intoxicating.

They say no thanks to food. Food is something that people would kill for. Food is a privelige (sp), not something that HAS TO be given to you.

I just don't understand it. I emphasize with atheists now when they say they don't understand why we believe in a God. VEGITARIANS DON'T MAKE SENSE!


*Vegitarian (sp?)

Maybe I should have bothered to read all the posts on all the pages, but this first post pissed me off so very much that I couldn't bring myself to do it.

I've been a vegetarian for 5 years now, and not once have I said that meat is intoxicating, or that the ingestion of said meat is evil. I have never tried to force my views on others, nor have I ever said "no thanks" to food.

Yeah, I've said no thanks to meat. My sincere apologies to you if you're offended by my diet. The idea of ingesting rotting animal flesh simply does not appeal to me in the least bit. It's not because I feel for the animals, it's because the idea of it makes me feel almost...zombified.

And I fail to see how my lack of meat makes me ungrateful, or affects the poor, starving children in any way.

That too is a misnomer. Water can be recycled (in fact, it naturally is). A well irrigated and well managed farm or cattle ranch can use the the same water over an over again, with losses to the environment recovered from rain and natural watershed.

It's not like you lose the water forever to get the steak (or the corn), and it's not like the process ruins the water so that noone can ever use it again.

Are you sure the costs of recycling cow pee are worth it? :)

I assume you mean me when you say that, yes? Note: I think you mean 'a disease', or possibly 'some diseases', though that seems unlikely.



Dude, no offence, but I think you have some kind of problem. Every single post I have read by you has been a furious response to something else, and most of them are unconnected, and I'm sure one or two contradict each other. Maybe you just like being the wronged minority? I don't know.

And, also, I don't think I actually said that no one should be vegetarian. I said that I didn't understand vegetarians, and that I hold a grudge against them, because I am petty and because they voluntarily *choose* to restrict their diets, when people like me *have* to. Despite this, I have several close friends who are vegetarians, one who is a vegan, and even more who are 'vegetarians that eat fish' - you can ask them, if you like, but I have not yet beaten them up and such because they dislike the taste of meat, have peculiar religions, feel strongly about animal cruelty (and yet wear leather coats and shoes, and one owns a very tasteful suede bag - the vegan, strangely enough, but she says it was a gift.) or the various other reasons.

I am aware that they do not eat meat and I do and think that us meat eaters are slightly immoral for doing so, and they are aware that I and a few others of our friends do not get vegetarianism, and think it is slightly... well, weird (no better word).

Also, your last sentence there? It's a good use of a minor sentence, there's something very melodramatic about it (good way), but maybe it was unneccessary? I mean, surely if you're allowed to express your own opinion so freely, then doesn't it make sense that people with the opposite point of view can express their opinions also?

But I can't see why people would have a problem with the fact some people don't like meat. Ya know, everything aside, I for one didn't eat red meat for ages, and still don't eat lamb and pork, just because I don't like it, no hidden agenda. Why is it so weird to not eat meat? Thats like me saying "OMG You type more with your left hand HEATHEN!!"

Furthermore, you'll find yeah, I am over-dramatic, but I like to either make people laugh at me or be angry. You'll find I support choice and safety. Not fear or judgement.

Speaking of urine, here is what Vegan Tony Robbins has to add about the savory taste of meat:

"In addition, do you know what gives meat its taste? Uric acid, from that now dead animal you're consuming. If you doubt this, try eating kosher-style meat before it's spiced. As the blood is drained out, so is most of the taste. Meat without uric acid has no flavor. Is that what you want to put in your body, the acid normally eliminated in the urine of an animal?"

:D

I am a healthy eater but in time to come I think they will find that meat is an essential part of the human diet. We simply are not herbovores. In fact besides a few tibetan monks( they eat insect poop for vit b12) there are no vegetarians vitaman b12 comes from animal sources only and is essential for life. I only eat meat about twice a month but I believe there are micro nutrients not yet discovered in foods and I truly believe that meat is essential though most tend to consume far more than what is needed.It is indeed an interesting subject and people should have the freedom to consume only vegetable matter if that is what they wish.

I am a healthy eater but in time to come I think they will find that meat is an essential part of the human diet. We simply are not herbovores. In fact besides a few tibetan monks( they eat insect poop for vit b12) there are no vegetarians vitaman b12 comes from animal sources only and is essential for life. I only eat meat about twice a month but I believe there are micro nutrients not yet discovered in foods and I truly believe that meat is essential though most tend to consume far more than what is needed.It is indeed an interesting subject and people should have the freedom to consume only vegetable matter if that is what they wish.

First of all, we need VERY little B12.

Second of all:

"A number of reliable vegan food sources for vitamin B12 are known. One brand of nutritional yeast, Red Star T-6635+, has been tested and shown to contain active vitamin B12. This brand of yeast is often labeled as Vegetarian Support Formula with or without T-6635+ in parentheses following this new name. It is a reliable source of vitamin B12. Nutritional yeast, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, is a food yeast, grown on a molasses solution, which comes as yellow flakes or powder. It has a cheesy taste. Nutritional yeast is different from brewer's yeast or torula yeast. It can often be used by those sensitive to other yeasts.

The RDA (which includes a safety factor) for adults for vitamin B12 is 2.4 micrograms daily [4]. 2.4 micrograms of vitamin B12 are provided by a little less than 1 Tablespoon of Vegetarian Support Formula (Red Star T-6635+) nutritional yeast. A number of the recipes in this book contain nutritional yeast.

Another source of vitamin B12 is fortified cereal."

http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm

...

You bring up another point


Why do damn idiotic girls go "Just kidding" when they say something stupid and have someone else point out their stupidity?

Girl: Oh, so when is this due?
Teacher: I just said, next week
Girl: Oh...just kidding


First time, okay haha fine. Second time, whatever. Twelfth time, STFU YOU STUPID GIRL!
Baaaaahahahahahaha. Those girls.. Oh man, funny as. I had like two of them in my class.. They were "joking/kidding" like 3 times a day atleast. Being blonde and good looking probably didnt help.
Sorry if this is off topic, just had to say.

actually, I did know that, but had a spinal SQL error and couldn't retrieve that fact earlier. :rolleyes: I also am an omnivore. I eat meat sparingly and usually avoid the beef in favor of chicken or even the occasional buffalo patty. But always the natural stuff.

I did go on a little tirade. Most people want to bring in ASPCA humane issues and believe that by refuting the "Moral" argument, that all the modern practices are proven good.

hehe nice article. I don't think I could go there just yet. Maybe if the supermarkets all closed overnight or something.

I am trying to get to where I grow/raise/hunt at least 75% of my food and only buy organic free range beyond that, but it's very hard with a full time job. I have already switched over to organic/freerange meats/eggs in my grocery, except for sandwich meats, which I can't seem to find in my area. But I live in the sticks, in a red state, so I don't see it getting here any time soon. Unfortunately I still find myself often too busy to eat anything other than packaged/fast-food, so I am trying to figure out how to get around that.

I am doing it not because of any moral reasons, but for the health concerns mostly. Plus, I just feel dirty buying crap from places where I know the cows grew up in a pen.

Come on, be one of us. Eat the beetle grubs. I promise they are quite good.

Are you sure the costs of recycling cow pee are worth it? :)

It's a lot easier than all that if you plan it right. You can even generate power (cleanly) and create topsoil to replace any losses you have in the process.

Speaking of urine, here is what Vegan Tony Robbins has to add about the savory taste of meat:

"In addition, do you know what gives meat its taste? Uric acid, from that now dead animal you're consuming. If you doubt this, try eating kosher-style meat before it's spiced. As the blood is drained out, so is most of the taste. Meat without uric acid has no flavor. Is that what you want to put in your body, the acid normally eliminated in the urine of an animal?"

:D

mmmmm....uric acid

First of all, we need VERY little B12.

Second of all:

"A number of reliable vegan food sources for vitamin B12 are known. One brand of nutritional yeast, Red Star T-6635+, has been tested and shown to contain active vitamin B12. This brand of yeast is often labeled as Vegetarian Support Formula with or without T-6635+ in parentheses following this new name. It is a reliable source of vitamin B12. Nutritional yeast, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, is a food yeast, grown on a molasses solution, which comes as yellow flakes or powder. It has a cheesy taste. Nutritional yeast is different from brewer's yeast or torula yeast. It can often be used by those sensitive to other yeasts.

The RDA (which includes a safety factor) for adults for vitamin B12 is 2.4 micrograms daily [4]. 2.4 micrograms of vitamin B12 are provided by a little less than 1 Tablespoon of Vegetarian Support Formula (Red Star T-6635+) nutritional yeast. A number of the recipes in this book contain nutritional yeast.

Another source of vitamin B12 is fortified cereal."

http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm

According to this source that yeast is not exactly a safe alternative. There is a probelm when one must go to such lengths to find out how to properly give the body it's nutrients. We are simply designed to consume meat.Perhaps eating insects would subsitute for meat of mammals and fish??

http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/vegansources

Just thought you'd all like to know what myself and my friend had for dinner last night at the bistro:

I had the "mixed grill platter": chips, egg, bacon, a sausage, a lamb chop, two pieces of steak (two different types) and a hamburger patty.

My friend had the 800 gram rump steak with chips.

Diagnosis - delicious! :D

This might have been posted before but I don't know, I didn't want to read this whole thread but not all vegetarians think eating meat. I just don't like the way any of it tastes me being a vegetarian after all... :)

This might have been posted before but I don't know, I didn't want to read this whole thread but not all vegetarians think eating meat.
:confused: :confused:

meat is neat :cool:

This might have been posted before but I don't know, I didn't want to read this whole thread but not all vegetarians think eating meat. I just don't like the way any of it tastes me being a vegetarian after all... :)
Gravedigging is against the rules.

um...the only thing that bugs me about some vegetarians (kaykami,your reason i understand,so don't get mad at me) is that it seems that the ones who want to protect the animals aren't going about it the right way.not eating something that is already dead does not help it in any way.if someone wants to help the animals,why can't they just try to save the living animals?what's done is done,and it doesn't make sense to dwell on the past.or at least,it doesn't make sense to me.

those pictures are simply heartbreaking. :(

Cow munching happily in the sunshine?
*cough (http://www.themeatrix.com)
Even in the rare case that animals are treated nicely in their lives, the slaughterhouse is a different story. Its a conveyor belt where the animals are placed on live, their throats slit by a machine and then they are skinned and their limbs are cut off. Pigs and poultry are boiled to remove their feathers/bristles. What's wrong with that? The throat-slitting machine doesn't always get them, and even if it does it doesnt always kill them that quickly. The result? The animals are boiled alive/skinned and have their limbs cut off when they are conscious. In the words of a slaughterhouse worker who had his arm shattered by a kicking cow who wasn't killed by the throat slit: "The line doesn't stop just because it's alive."
Then you go into factory farming and such, the whole thing is fucking horrific. No one in their right mind would eat butcher's meat.
Methinks you need a different namesake.