NationStates Jolt Archive

First of all, I would like to make it clear I'm not from the United States, thus having a limited scope of observation of the current everyday live in the United States beyond mainstream media sources and the experience of several friends there.

But from where I'm sitting, I'm seeing a social force of conservative population within the United States. These persons usually observe one sect of the christian religion, have very conservative social values and consider every other sectors of society as 'contaminated' 'immoral' 'pagan' or 'infidel'. They are usually avid and unconditional supporters of the Republcian Party/Adminstration.

So, as an outsider, I'd like to propose the question: If they had the power to remake America (I'm assuming it won't be 'United States'), what would the nation be like?

Is it what the rest of us would classify as a despotic, Imperialistic, 'Modern Crusader state' working under the guise of a moralist theological nation?

So, in short and simple terms, What would satisfy you neo-cons?!

Thank you for reading.
JiangGuo

Essentially what you said...
If you can't see the fnords they cant eat you
http://silt3.com/index.php?id=572
Hail Eris All Hail Discordia Fnord
And this basically talks about how and why the world is utterly doomed. Enjoy!

The term NEO CONS, is just a scare tactic by the democrats. Bottom line, it happens every election. The republicans do it too, they call the democrats, names all the time. It's really nothing new. As to what would THEY do if they were in power, THEY are in power now. Whoever dosent like what they do can vote them out of office in about 4 years.

Essentially what you said...
If you can't see the fnords they cant eat you
http://silt3.com/index.php?id=572
Hail Eris All Hail Discordia Fnord
And this basically talks about how and why the world is utterly doomed. Enjoy!
nothing's doomed, you watch too much news, alarmist. This article is rubbish.

The liberals in this country are really not all that much more liberal than the republicans, they just try to vocalize whatever they think the people want. Well, their problem is that they are usually wrong and when they flip flop their ideas to come in line with public sentiment its too late and they come out looking wishy washy and confused. I personally hope that they get their act together or they will lose their ability to counter the republicans, which would be unhealthy for the country.

nothing's doomed, you watch too much news, alarmist. everything is doomed, you trust politicians too much, antilapsarianist
[size=1]The greyfaces can only hide the fnords for so long[/zie
Both parties have too much of a lunatic fringe, only one party has a more vocal one that doesn't control it.

everything is doomed, you trust politicians too much, antilapsarianist
[size=1]The greyfaces can only hide the fnords for so long[/zie
Both parties have too much of a lunatic fringe, only one party has a more vocal one that doesn't control it.
have faith in you fellow man, the parties are just speaking heads for the people, write your congressman or something. Better yet Run for congress yourself!! You live in the land of the free...

The liberals in this country are really not all that much more liberal than the republicans, they just try to vocalize whatever they think the people want. Well, their problem is that they are usually wrong and when they flip flop their ideas to come in line with public sentiment its too late and they come out looking wishy washy and confused. I personally hope that they get their act together or they will lose their ability to counter the republicans, which would be unhealthy for the country.

1)Liberals already HAVE lost their ability to counter Republicans, at least on the federal level (we still maintain some local influence, thank God). This country is already in bad shape because there is no effective opposition.

2)The "liberal media" myth persists even though what passes for news nowadays is really more like entertainment. Nearly every major media outlet is trying to outfox Fox, which 1)ain't gonna happen and 2)has gotten rid of nearly all of the formerly moderate/liberal major media except maybe CBS. Notice that NBC is owned by General Electric (which also has its fingers in defense contracts) and ABC is owned by Disney. Both companies have a stake in media deregulation, specifically deregulating merger regulations, which the Bush administration supports. Hmm...I wonder if this has anything to do with the scarcity of investigative reporting on MSM in the last four years, even though scandals abound? Though you don't mention the media specifically, it has a lot to do with public perception of "those evul libruls."

3)The term "flip flopper" was ascribed to one man by Karl Rove and cronies, and yet you blanketly apply that term to tens of millions of people. There are several words for someone who never "flip flops"--inflexible, pompous, arrogant, etc.

1)Liberals already HAVE lost their ability to counter Republicans, at least on the federal level (we still maintain some local influence, thank God). This country is already in bad shape because there is no effective opposition.

2)The "liberal media" myth persists even though what passes for news nowadays is really more like entertainment. Nearly every major media outlet is trying to outfox Fox, which 1)ain't gonna happen and 2)has gotten rid of nearly all of the formerly moderate/liberal major media except maybe CBS. Notice that NBC is owned by General Electric (which also has its fingers in defense contracts) and ABC is owned by Disney. Both companies have a stake in media deregulation, specifically deregulating merger regulations, which the Bush administration supports. Hmm...I wonder if this has anything to do with the scarcity of investigative reporting on MSM in the last four years, even though scandals abound? Though you don't mention the media specifically, it has a lot to do with public perception of "those evul libruls."

3)The term "flip flopper" was ascribed to one man by Karl Rove and cronies, and yet you blanketly apply that term to tens of millions of people. There are several words for someone who never "flip flops"--inflexible, pompous, arrogant, etc.
I'm just tired of all the doom and gloom, these things have cycles. The democrats will probably regain the office next election and try to undo everything bush is doing now, and the teeter tottering will continue. Look at a news reel from the good ol 50's, its all the same. Everyone should remember to put a little perspective on things.

Also, I never said liberals were evil, thou I appreciate your misspelled bushism insinuating that I'm stupid.

come join our region!!!!

I don't have faith in mankind's ability to change because on a deep level, it never has. How can I have faith in my fellow man when they are a bunch of slovenly consumerists that beat up their girlfriends so they can abort an illegitimate child and whine on the internet about how much their life sucks(forget about the tsunami victims), when they attend church then vote not to help the poor, then quote the latest stereotypical joke, gossip about rich corporate icons with boobs, and ignore the fact that of all their stuff is made in Chinese sweatshops thanks to the ever tightening grip of nationless corporations as their government sends kids to die(they need money for college, not like the colleges couldn't lower their prices) in a far off sandtrap for a cause that doesn't exist anymore?
fnord fnord fnord fnord fnord
The parties are voices for whoever has money and an agenda that happen to give the people treats for their votes.

Now the thing that makes this different from the 50s is we don't have a clearly defined enemy. Russia had borders, terrorists have apartments. Also, unlike Russia, our enemies are actively trying to create a war with no fear(hell they love the idea) of the consequences. Unfortunetly when you put a perspective on things you are reminded of all the other times civilization has collapsed.

Know what I find funny? If there was ever a Utopian movement it would be crushed by illegal economic pressure and called evil communism because politicians are afraid it might succeed.

So, as an outsider, I'd like to propose the question: If they had the power to remake America (I'm assuming it won't be 'United States'), what would the nation be like?


First of all, let me clarify that "neocon" is not just a buzz word used to scare children. It is a legitimate term. A Neo-Conservative is the modern version of the old conservative movement. A better word for neocon is "moralist".

Now ... what would the US be like if the moralist neocons had their way?

Easy: Just like Iran in the 1980s only Christian instead of Muslim.

It would suck ass to be anything but a male WASP (white anglo-saxon protestant). Anyone who doesn't believe me merely needs look at the RNC Platform.

The fact that neocons are growing in power is the only reason I'm glad for the 2nd amendment.

I don't have faith in mankind's ability to change because on a deep level, it never has. How can I have faith in my fellow man when they are a bunch of slovenly consumerists that beat up their girlfriends so they can abort an illegitimate child and whine on the internet about how much their life sucks(forget about the tsunami victims), when they attend church then vote not to help the poor, then quote the latest stereotypical joke, gossip about rich corporate icons with boobs, and ignore the fact that of all their stuff is made in Chinese sweatshops thanks to the ever tightening grip of nationless corporations as their government sends kids to die(they need money for college, not like the colleges couldn't lower their prices) in a far off sandtrap for a cause that doesn't exist anymore?
fnord fnord fnord fnord fnord
The parties are voices for whoever has money and an agenda that happen to give the people treats for their votes.

Now the thing that makes this different from the 50s is we don't have a clearly defined enemy. Russia had borders, terrorists have apartments. Also, unlike Russia, our enemies are actively trying to create a war with no fear(hell they love the idea) of the consequences. Unfortunetly when you put a perspective on things you are reminded of all the other times civilization has collapsed.

Know what I find funny? If there was ever a Utopian movement it would be crushed by illegal economic pressure and called evil communism because politicians are afraid it might succeed.

Again too much news, take a nap, walk outside and enjoy the day. It's not that bad, for goodness sakes your scaring the foreigners.

First of all, let me clarify that "neocon" is not just a buzz word used to scare children. It is a legitimate term. A Neo-Conservative is the modern version of the old conservative movement. A better word for neocon is "moralist".

Now ... what would the US be like if the moralist neocons had their way?

Easy: Just like Iran in the 1980s only Christian instead of Muslim.

It would suck ass to be anything but a male WASP (white anglo-saxon protestant). Anyone who doesn't believe me merely needs look at the RNC Platform.

The fact that neocons are growing in power is the only reason I'm glad for the 2nd amendment.
You are truly one paranoid dude, I've got an assignment for you. Find one thing that dosent freak you out so much and do that instead of discussing politics.

I dont mean to attack you guys, I'm sure your nice fellas but irrational rants about doom and gloom are just silly.

You are truly one paranoid dude, I've got an assignment for you. Find one thing that dosent freak you out so much and do that instead of discussing politics.

That's just the way it is. Moralist Republicans - the ones who now hold the power - want to do a few things:

1] Invade people's privacy by defining marriage based on their religious views.
2] Finally put it in legal documentation that the US is a Christian nation.
3] Illegalize dissent.
4] Repeal Roe v. Wade - again based on their religious views.

And so on and so on ...

If you can actually prove those statements wrong, be my guest. However, I've got the RNC Platform ready for copy/paste rebuttal.

It's not paranoia, it's their own platform.

Also, Utopian movement!!!!!! Ok I admit I said have faith in you fellow man but not that much. It's impossible. Communism dosent work because power produces greed. Nothing can ever be evenly distributed. Also it is unfair not to reward harder working people over lazy people.

That's just the way it is. Moralist Republicans - the ones who now hold the power - want to do a few things:

1] Invade people's privacy by defining marriage based on their religious views.
2] Finally put it in legal documentation that the US is a Christian nation.
3] Illegalize dissent.
4] Repeal Roe v. Wade - again based on their religious views.

And so on and so on ...

If you can actually prove those statements wrong, be my guest. However, I've got the RNC Platform ready for copy/paste rebuttal.

It's not paranoia, it's their own platform.

Like I said in four years the democrats will probably undo everything bush does. It has always been this way... I repeat it has always been this way. Also you are sensationalizing bush's initiatives because you dont agree with them. Thats perfectly ok but it is not totally honest in its presentation, it is alarmist.

Like I said in four years the democrats will probable undo everything bush does. It has always been this way... I repeat it has always been this way. Also you are sensationalizing bush's initiatives because you dont agree with them. Thats perfectly ok but it is not totally honest in its presentation, it is alarmist.

I didn't say anything about Bush. I'm more concerned with Congress. Bush has no power to make laws ... that's all Congress.

I also have a concern with constructionist judges being placed on the Supreme Court in the next few years - something that could take another 50 years to "undo".

If it was me simply disagreeing with Bush, I'd just shake my head and not worry about it. However, all it takes is a few carefully placed documents in front of Congress with a little pork and a little kickback and a whole lot of flowery dialogues and *boom* ... suddenly I'm required to wear an armband and carry a special ID card because I'm Muslim.

This sort of thing has happened before, you know. It's not paranoia.

Hell ... look at the Patriot Act ... that thing went through with only 5% of Congress actually reading it! A huge number of Congressmen now say they would not have permitted it to go through had they actually read it at the time.

Just how am I being paranoid? Some things cannot be undone.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Eternal.

I like your passion, I think you should do something with it. I just dont agree that things are as bad as you insinuate. It has always been hard to provoke social change in this country and there are enough level headed good poeple that well be ok. Cmon, do you really think you'll have to wear an armband. If so you'll be a rich armband wearin son of a gun and you can take your money and buy yourself an island because some liberal judges would give you fort knox for your pain and suffrin.

The term NEO CONS, is just a scare tactic by the democrats. Bottom line, it happens every election. The republicans do it too, they call the democrats, names all the time. It's really nothing new. As to what would THEY do if they were in power, THEY are in power now. Whoever dosent like what they do can vote them out of office in about 4 years.

Assuming elections are held in four years.

Assuming elections are held in four years.
funny

Blessed Assurance is honestly assuring people that the reactionary elements in society will be undone and lose power if people just stop complaining and do other things for a few years.

...hmm? That sounds very odd to me. Political activism is part and parcel of stimulating change no? People freaking out on political forums might only cause 1 in 1000 to actually act; but that's still 1 more person trying to make a difference.

I must disagree with your assessment, Blessed Assurance. Things will only change if MORE people freak out online, start waving around theories about Pogroms against muslims and Neo con shennanigans.

A grassroots movement from the left might be the most effective counter from the recent grassroots campaigns from the right, no? Why wouldn't you support this, if as you say, things move in cycles?

The fact that neocons are growing in power is the only reason I'm glad for the 2nd amendment.
You mean the same amendment which the Dummicrats are trying to either take away or otherwise render null and void? Real smart.

Keruvalia, just chill and have some ham. Yummy! :)

FIRE, BRIMSTONE, DISEASE, SLAUGHTER, FAMINE, PANIC, DEATH!!!!11

Anyway........ I love watching the political damage control echos at work. Say something against someone's political party, they and hundreds of supporters and stooges rush to defend it. Unfortunetly people have the tendency to want to play devils advocate when no one else seems to come to a party's rescue, out of pity or for fairness sake, regardless of how scumtacular the thing they're defending is...

Conservatives defending neoconservatives is like the honest worker party supporters defending Nazism. By lending support to the fanatics instead of ostracizing them from the legitimate party, you give an extremist viewpoint an unbalanced portion of power. The Democrats too should try as hard as possible to lose the lunatic fringers like the people that want to ban all firearms and present a more agreeable middle-ground party.

You should find out what the neocons stand for then decide whether or not you agree with them. If you don't, you shouldn't be afraid of criticizing them. If necessary one may have to smear the republican party's reputation so people understand it is no longer an entirely honest conservative body, but is being run by a small amount of influential nutcases. If necessary a new conservative political party must be founded to escape their influence. They are riding a wave of misconceptions using a party's reputation as a surfboard.

I'm not voting for any candidate who want to take away my right to own the firearm of my choice, or take away the right for me to wear and carry it.

Democrats don't seem to get it. They think that by consistently voting against something and then going for a duck hunt, they'll convince gun owners that voting Democrat is good for your gun rights.

The problem Democrats have is that they believe the average voter is a complete idiot, easily stage mangaged to the polls, even if the candidate is completely inconsistent at all levels.

The Republicans don't seem to have emulated this strategy. If Bush had been emulating this strategy, he would have gone to a mosque five times a day for prayers, given half his speeches in Arabic, and constantly said he was the friend of Islam all while maintaining the current fiasco in Iraq.

No, he went to conservative Christian churches, spoke in English and Spanish (which he's fluent in), and said he's on a crusade.

Which one is more consistent (regardless of whether they're right or wrong)?

... from where I'm sitting, I'm seeing a social force of conservative population within the United States. These persons usually observe one sect of the christian religion, have very conservative social values and consider every other sectors of society is 'contaminated' 'immoral' 'pagan' or 'infidel'. They are usually avid and unconditional supporters of the Republcian Party/Adminstration.
You have a seriously warpped view of the US. Just to take my own example, I'm not a "Christian" in the sense you described, I'm centrist in my political leanings, I don't like much of what "conservatives" posit as a domestic agenda, I worry about the environment, etc. Yet I voted for President Bush's reelection. And I know many more like me. I think you seriously overstate the case for both the "neocon" movement and the influence of "Christian fundamentalists."

That's just the way it is. Moralist Republicans - the ones who now hold the power - want to do a few things:

1] Invade people's privacy by defining marriage based on their religious views.
2] Finally put it in legal documentation that the US is a Christian nation.
3] Illegalize dissent.
4] Repeal Roe v. Wade - again based on their religious views.

And so on and so on ...

If you can actually prove those statements wrong, be my guest. However, I've got the RNC Platform ready for copy/paste rebuttal.

It's not paranoia, it's their own platform.
I can see one and four on the RNC platform, but can you say (quote and what page) two and three are on?

What would satisfy me? The following-

- Ban all abortion unless the mother will die
- Ban fornication
- Ban sodomy
- Ban homosexual marriage, homosexual civil unions, homosexual adoptions
- Ban Flag burning
- Ban atheism
- Ban NAMBLA and arrest its members
- Ban alcohol except for religious puposes or limit people to 1 beer a week
- Ban smoking
- Ban the KKK
- Ban this morning after pill

The term NEO CONS, is just a scare tactic by the democrats. Bottom line, it happens every election. The republicans do it too, they call the democrats, names all the time. It's really nothing new. As to what would THEY do if they were in power, THEY are in power now. Whoever dosent like what they do can vote them out of office in about 4 years.
Pat Buchanan is a democrat O.o? Seriously, he invented the term.

What would satisfy me? The following-

- Ban all abortion unless the mother will die
- Ban fornication
- Ban sodomy
- Ban homosexual marriage, homosexual civil unions, homosexual adoptions
- Ban Flag burning
- Ban atheism
- Ban NAMBLA and arrest its members
- Ban alcohol except for religious puposes or limit people to 1 beer a week
- Ban smoking
- Ban the KKK
- Ban this morning after pill

Unfortunately, that would make many, many millions of people unsatisfied.

What would satisfy me? The following-

- Ban all abortion unless the mother will die
- Ban fornication
- Ban sodomy
- Ban homosexual marriage, homosexual civil unions, homosexual adoptions
- Ban Flag burning
- Ban atheism
- Ban NAMBLA and arrest its members
- Ban alcohol except for religious puposes or limit people to 1 beer a week
- Ban smoking
- Ban the KKK
- Ban this morning after pill
Do you even know what 'fornication' is? Seriously, America won't hang around long if no-one's having sex.

Do you even know what 'fornication' is? Seriously, America won't hang around long if no-one's having sex.

Fornication is sex between two unmarried people. He wants to ban pre-marital sex, not all sex.

Fornication is sex between two unmarried people. He wants to ban pre-marital sex, not all sex.
I'd have to go get the dictionary, but I'm fairly certain that fornication is simply 'sex'

I'd have to go get the dictionary, but I'm fairly certain that fornication is simply 'sex'

Fornication (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fornication)

Check out the second definition.

Believe me, as soon as I saw that, I looked up the word. I found it just as unbelievable as you.

I can see one and four on the RNC platform, but can you say (quote and what page) two and three are on?
#3 is the patriot act, haven't seen 2

Democrats don't generally want to ban ownership of firearms. I'm very much left of center and I would never want that. Gun control is not the same thing. I very much agree with background checks before buying a gun. Anyone read Margeret Atwood's " A Handmaids Tale?" Realize most people never thought the Nazis would go as far as they did? Sure it's doubtful things would go that far, but I don't think it's paranoia to see the possibility.

#3 is the patriot act, haven't seen 2
The Patriot Act bans dissent?

Thats news to me.

What would satisfy me? The following-

- Ban all abortion unless the mother will die
- Ban fornication
- Ban sodomy
- Ban homosexual marriage, homosexual civil unions, homosexual adoptions
- Ban Flag burning
- Ban atheism
- Ban NAMBLA and arrest its members
- Ban alcohol except for religious puposes or limit people to 1 beer a week
- Ban smoking
- Ban the KKK
- Ban this morning after pill
You realize that only ONE of those is actually constitutionally sound, and also, how the HELL do you ban atheism? Beat him up while screaming "BELIEVE IN A GOD DAMN YOU!!!"? Seriously, you can't ban believing in something or not believing in something. If it seriously happens, we get into the realm of "thought crimes" I strongly suggest every person reading this go out and get a copy of 1984, check it out from the library or something, just read it.

The Patriot Act bans dissent?

Thats news to me.
Not in so many words, but in spirit it comes damn close.
Also, #3 is embodied by the RNC having any protester within a BLOCK of itself (and the occassional person who wasn't even protesting but was in the wrong place at the wrong time) arrested.

Not in so many words, but in spirit it comes damn close.
Also, #3 is embodied by the RNC having any protester within a BLOCK of itself (and the occassional person who wasn't even protesting but was in the wrong place at the wrong time) arrested.
Keruvalia said it was in the RNC platform. Surely it shouldn't be that hard to show that somewhere, in the RNC platform, they want to ban dissent? Not just point to something that has the intent to curb terrorist activities, or something that both parties did (the DNC had "Free Speech Zones" as well).

Edit : Although the fact that the Dems did it dosen't excuse the fact that the Republicans did it, too.

The sky is falling, the sky is falling woo hoo. You lunatic liberals (not all liberals, just the nutty ones on here) are the only lunatics I see. The NEOCONS as they are so lovingly nicknamed are just about 5 guys that have little or no pull. Go to the newamericancentury.org website and read their literature. Not quite the beasts of of the evil rebellion you had envisioned? Tha's because its all propoganda......

What would satisfy me? The following-

- Ban all abortion unless the mother will die
- Ban fornication
- Ban sodomy
- Ban homosexual marriage, homosexual civil unions, homosexual adoptions
- Ban Flag burning
- Ban atheism
- Ban NAMBLA and arrest its members
- Ban alcohol except for religious puposes or limit people to 1 beer a week
- Ban smoking
- Ban the KKK
- Ban this morning after pill
OK, you are the one who is freaking everyone out, this list is rediculous, 1 beer a week? Yeah sure prohibition works let's start imprisoning everyone for drinking beer. It would be funny though because there would be more people in prison than are free. We could start our own new nation, with liberty and justice for all behind bars.
I think you may be a ittle overboard..........

Also, NAMBLA is banned dude...... Geesh its like i'm debating my sisters kids or something...

Also, NAMBLA is banned dude...... Geesh its like i'm debating my sisters kids or something...
Besides the fact that a child can't give meaningful consent. I believe the thread is about consensual sex.

Oops! wrong thread!