NationStates Jolt Archive

In the "I would like to clarify" thread Jenn Jenn Land posted Most Christians believe gays and non-Christians are going to Hell,

and Battlestar Christiania replied with
Yeah, the Bible is pretty clear on that.

Now my question is, do you as a Christian believe that those who are not Christians but worship the same God as you do are going to hell? Jews, which I believe the Bible refers to as "God's choosen people" (although I could be wrong), Muslims who think of Jesus as a prophet and Mormons who share two testiments with us and think of themselves as Christians, are they going to hell? I mean, we worship the same God despite our religions, don't we?

Another question, but less relevant is, do you believe in the existance of purgutory?

I am not trying to start a holy war in this thread, just wondering what things look like from other perspectives.

Post Script: Just a reminder, THIS IS NOT A GAY THREAD!!! If you want to debate/state opinions about that go and create your own thread. It's an over done topic in this forum, frankly I don't want to hear about where so-and-so puts his such-and-such, or where Lara licks. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: My time is valuable, I'm a very important person with lots of important things to do, like de-canting the dipping sauce, so I don't want my time wasted talking about the morals of where people put their willies. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: THIS IS NOT A GAY THREAD!!!

I don't, but then my parish is quite liberal.

Mormons consider themselves Christians. Muslims consider Jesus a prophet, but reject their divinity. Jews...now, they're a tricky group.

John 14:6, KJV: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I have to admit, however, I'm just not sure about Jews...they are our spiritual predecessors, and I believe there is a special bond between Jews and Christians. According to the Biblical prophecies, the return of Jews to Holy Land, and the reconstitution of the Israeli state (in 1948, as it would turn out), were orchestrated (on some level) by God, and are a necessary precondition for the Second Coming of Christ; the Book of Revelation suggests some righteous Jews will ascend into Heaven during the Second Coming.

I am a politically and theologically conservative Christian. I have a deep and abiding respect for the Jewish people and the Jewish faith. I believe that Christians should seek close partnership with religious Jews in spiritual matters (ie. such groups as "Christian Action for Israel"), and work in support, as I do, of the Israeli State.

Ultimately, God will sort out this question. In the meantime, I will continue to work closely, and learn more about, the Israelities, the Chosen People of God.
In the words of the Reverend Jerry Falwell, "He who stands against Israel stands against God." I intend to be one of Jerusalem's 'watchmen' (Isiah 62:6).

I hope that makes some kind of sense. :)

I hope that makes some kind of sense. :)

Yes thankyou, and I have ammended my first post as a result.:)

I believe that God has been revealed to various peoples in varying ways. My boyfriend has the best analogy - that of a broken mirror. Suppose a mirror were built to reflect God. However, it was shattered into many pieces. Every religion has a piece of that mirror, a part of the aspect of God, if you will. It is my personal belief that Christianity has the biggest piece. However, I believe that there is a great deal of truth in many other religions as well.

That said, I do not believe that those who worship in other ways are going to "Hell" as it is most often described. Those who have completely separated themselves from God may be relegated to that separation forever (the actual meaning of hell). I am unsure on all other religions, but I do not believe that all members of other faiths are going to be separated from a God they worshiped, albeit not necessarily in the most correct way. In truth, I don't believe that anyone has it all right, and thus no one follows in exactly the correct way.

I'm quite the liberal Catholic, when it comes to issues such as these. The vast majority of my friends are not Christian, and I have never once believe that they shall burn for all eternity. As long as they fairly moral people, I see nothing wrong with it-my closest friend practices Dartessianism (sp?), which is about as far removed from Catholisism as one can get. I also believe that most religions do worship the same god, albeit under a different name. If one looks at the same basic tenents, they are fairly close in structure across the board-commandments such as "Do not steal" and "Do not lie" are fairly common.

In the "I would like to clarify" thread Jenn Jenn Land posted

and Battlestar Christiania replied with


Now my question is, do you as a Christian believe that those who are not Christians but worship the same God as you do are going to hell? Jews, which I believe the Bible refers to as "God's choosen people" (although I could be wrong), Muslims who think of Jesus as a prophet and Mormons who share two testiments with us and think of themselves as Christians, are they going to hell? I mean, we worship the same God despite our religions, don't we?

Another question, but less relevant is, do you believe in the existance of purgutory?

I am not trying to start a holy war in this thread, just wondering what things look like from other perspectives.


The thing is God doesn't judge you based on what religion you identify yourself with. He doesn't judge you based on which sect you identify yourself with.

God loves all people. He loves people regardless. Yes it's true we worship the same God but there's something that stands in between us. According to Christianity God can not be where sin is. We all have sin. Therefore we can not be with God. However, Jesus is like that bridge that connects the two. Through him we can be with God.

This is why Christians say that the only way to Heaven is to be a Christian.

My view is, the only way to God is through Jesus. Religion isn't whats in question. It's your faith that is.

I don't know about purgatory. I need to continue studying more. I'll get back to you when I figure it out.

Purgatory is supose to be were anyone who isn't babtized goes if I remember correcctly.

Purgatory is supose to be were anyone who isn't babtized goes if I remember correcctly.
no, that's limbo.

the believers go to purgatory.

no, that's limbo.

the believers go to purgatory.
Thats right I was trying to remeber which was which. Purgatory is were you go until you have repented all your sins and can get into heaven.

Don't worry, I confused the two of them as well. I only bought it up because I thought someone who supported the idea of only Christians going to heaven might try and say that all Jew before Jesus came to save us would go there rather than hell.

I believe that humans are too stupid to ever know what happens to us when we die. I just try to live my life making others and myself as happy as possible without letting people walk all over me. I think that's all anyone could ask of anybody, even God. I was raised Baptist. Now I'm agnostic and pray for the Baptist. Many of their religion preach hate and judgement, which is not the message of Jesus, who they claim to believe in. I believe God/Jesus/Allah or whatever you want to call him just wants us to be happy and enjoy our lives, not make other people miserable or calling people out as evil. Who are we to know what true evil is? Our minds cannot comprehend that just as we cannot know what pure love is, which some people call God. We can only know how people treat us. Those that are vicious and cause destruction certainly are not the best of the human race, but we cannot determine whether they will be in heaven or hell (if those places even exist as we imagine they do). All we can do is defend ourselves and take precautions against people who would do us harm, but never attack them except in retaliation and defense.

Edit:
As far as gays and non-Christians going to hell, that is just silly. We cannot know what God requires of us to be in his good graces. The Bible was written by men who are imperfect. Besides, the Bible also says that people should not wear clothing of different cloths and that we should not eat shellfish. I seriously doubt that the creator of the entire universe cares anything about the gender of who we love, what we eat, or what we wear. As far as Christianity is concerned, I realize that they believe that Christ was the sone of God and he died for our sins. However, I also realize we are all children of our creator, even the people who lived before Christ. I think God is too loving and compassionate to cast anyone to hell simply because they were not saved by Jesus. Many people have never even had the opportunity to hear the gospels of Jesus, so what happens to them? If God were to cast them all to hell I personnally would be very dissappointed. There are plenty of good people who are not Christian and not religious. I believe we should not focus on what happens when we die but instead focus on our daily lives, making them as full and wonderful as we can. :fluffle:

If you want information about the special relationship between jews and christians, read Romans chapter 11 on bible.com NIV is my favorite translation. It is described in great detail.

Romans 12 verse 9 - 20

9Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality.
14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.[c] Do not be conceited.

17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d]says the Lord. 20On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”[e] 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

I believe this should disspell a few myths about christianity..

I believe that as long as you're nice, you can go to heaven. Doesn't that make more sense?

You don't have to think a certian way, or believe this or that. Just love your neighbor as yourself for once. You'll be fine. Even if many Christians are hypocrites in this area, it is the best way to go in my opinion.

Romans 12 verse 9 - 20

9Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality.
14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.[c] Do not be conceited.

17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d]says the Lord. 20On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”[e] 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

I believe this should disspell a few myths about christianity..


This is true. It's sad how most people will ignore this, but they can't ignore the crusades...

This is true. It's sad how most people will ignore this, but they can't ignore the crusades...

Because actions speak louder than words

There is no god.
There is no devil
There is no heaven
There is no hell

There is only life and death.
Get used to it and live.

I guess this makes me not a christian, but good for me.

Have fun.

There is no god.
There is no devil
There is no heaven
There is no hell

There is only life and death.
Get used to it and live.

I guess this makes me not a christian, but good for me.

Have fun.
I believe that was completely off-topic.

Am I annoying you guys by putting scripture in here, or would you like me to add another. I dont want to take over the thread but I feel that its the best was to describe christian theology.

I believe that humans are too stupid to ever know what happens to us when we die. I just try to live my life making others and myself as happy as possible without letting people walk all over me. I think that's all anyone could ask of anybody, even God. I was raised Baptist. Now I'm agnostic and pray for the Baptist. Many of their religion preach hate and judgement, which is not the message of Jesus, who they claim to believe in. I believe God/Jesus/Allah or whatever you want to call him just wants us to be happy and enjoy our lives, not make other people miserable or calling people out as evil. Who are we to know what true evil is? Our minds cannot comprehend that just as we cannot know what pure love is, which some people call God. We can only know how people treat us. Those that are vicious and cause destruction certainly are not the best of the human race, but we cannot determine whether they will be in heaven or hell (if those places even exist as we imagine they do). All we can do is defend ourselves and take precautions against people who would do us harm, but never attack them except in retaliation and defense.

Edit:
As far as gays and non-Christians going to hell, that is just silly. We cannot know what God requires of us to be in his good graces. The Bible was written by men who are imperfect. Besides, the Bible also says that people should not wear clothing of different cloths and that we should not eat shellfish. I seriously doubt that the creator of the entire universe cares anything about the gender of who we love, what we eat, or what we wear. As far as Christianity is concerned, I realize that they believe that Christ was the sone of God and he died for our sins. However, I also realize we are all children of our creator, even the people who lived before Christ. I think God is too loving and compassionate to cast anyone to hell simply because they were not saved by Jesus. Many people have never even had the opportunity to hear the gospels of Jesus, so what happens to them? If God were to cast them all to hell I personnally would be very dissappointed. There are plenty of good people who are not Christian and not religious. I believe we should not focus on what happens when we die but instead focus on our daily lives, making them as full and wonderful as we can. :fluffle:



You're my hero...that's my belief entirely.

I believe that was completely off-topic.

Only if it is strawberry flavored....*8-}

You're my hero...that's my belief entirely.

romans chapter 14 verse 13

13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

reguarding the Evil food myth, shellfish, pork etc

I, as a non-demonational Christian, believe that engaging in homosexual behaviour is a sin. But, none of us are without sin.

It is not my place to say who is and who is not going to hell. That is God's decision and his alone. No where in the Bible does it say that one sin or another will damn you. It's very arrogant for any true Christian to say they know who is going to Hell. Only God knows. God and many of the things he does are beyond our understanding.

I do not agree with the homosexual lifestyle. But neither can I damn those who are homosexual. I pray for them. I know that God loves them as much as He loves me. My sin is no greater then theirs in the eyes of the Lord.

One thing is clear in the Bible. They way to God's Kingdom is through Christ. A Christian believes that if they accept Him as their personl Savior and humble themselves by admitting that they can not make it into Heaven by their own merits, they will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

I, as a non-demonational Christian, believe that engaging in homosexual behaviour is a sin. But, none of us are without sin.

It is not my place to say who is and who is not going to hell. That is God's decision and his alone. No where in the Bible does it say that one sin or another will damn you. It's very arrogant for any true Christian to say they know who is going to Hell. Only God knows. God and many of the things he does are beyond our understanding.

I do not agree with the homosexual lifestyle. But neither can I damn those who are homosexual. I pray for them. I know that God loves them as much as He loves me. My sin is no greater then theirs in the eyes of the Lord.

One thing is clear in the Bible. They way to God's Kingdom is through Christ. A Christian believes that if they accept Him as their personl Savior and humble themselves by admitting that they can not make it into Heaven by their own merits, they will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
well said...

I, as a non-demonational Christian, believe that engaging in homosexual behaviour is a sin. But, none of us are without sin.

It is not my place to say who is and who is not going to hell. That is God's decision and his alone. No where in the Bible does it say that one sin or another will damn you. It's very arrogant for any true Christian to say they know who is going to Hell. Only God knows. God and many of the things he does are beyond our understanding.

I do not agree with the homosexual lifestyle. But neither can I damn those who are homosexual. I pray for them. I know that God loves them as much as He loves me. My sin is no greater then theirs in the eyes of the Lord.

One thing is clear in the Bible. They way to God's Kingdom is through Christ. A Christian believes that if they accept Him as their personl Savior and humble themselves by admitting that they can not make it into Heaven by their own merits, they will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Spoken like a true Christian. Good on you!

This tag is brought to you by Romandeos.

.....
Now my question is, do you as a Christian believe that those who are not Christians but worship the same God as you do are going to hell? Jews, which I believe the Bible refers to as "God's choosen people" (although I could be wrong), Muslims who think of Jesus as a prophet and Mormons who share two testiments with us and think of themselves as Christians, are they going to hell? I mean, we worship the same God despite our religions, don't we?

Another question, but less relevant is, do you believe in the existance of purgutory?

I am not trying to start a holy war in this thread, just wondering what things look like from other perspectives.

Well, I think its a matter of faith, as Jesus had said its not law, or deed, its the faith of the heart. He also said, all those that seek him will find him, he didn't say, all those that seek me will find my teachings or the teachings of my students. So the whole issue with gays going to hell, it depends, we all have sinned, so we are all imperfect, so the faith is what really matters, not the deed.

I feel the jewish people are still covered by the covenant that G-d gave them, cause Jesus said he didn't come to take away, but to bring a deeper understanding, and to save the non-jewish. I do think that many jews have lost track of it all, but I also feel that most faith has that. I've found I respect and get along best with the Orthadox Jews, they seem to have some of the strongest faith I've seen in a long time, and they still seek after the Messiah, in my point of view, they are seeking Jesus, they just don't know it.

I'm not as sure about Muslims, because it seems that a good number of those that follow it do have a more violent side, not saying all of them, and I know that Christians and Jews have a violent past too, but it seems just that, in the past. They do have a lot of truth to them though, I just feel its been distorted, though once again its faith and such, though I'm not the clearest on my feelings towards Islam.

Purgatory, in my opinion is based on Abraham's bossum, where the Jewish people go until the day of judgement comes. I also think there is a limbo state as well, where the gentiles go. Those that have lead lives not so pure end up in Shol, the land of the dead that got changed to hell by later christians, mainly the Catholic church. Everything that I've read states that all must go to the Land of the Dead and await the coming judgement. I also feel that Jesus appears to those lost in limbo and appears to them. With this in mind, and that time doesn't imply upon the divine, its only a physical essance, I believe that all those that die without knowledge of Jesus, and yet have G-d in there hearts will find him.

The bible seems to show that only those that are truely rebellious of G-d, even after seeing it and knowing him as truth, still turn from him, or those that side with The Adversary will be tossed into the burning pool of fire and consumed by the flames. Though the fallen angels, and The Adversary will be tossed into the endless pit made for the angels that rebelled.

I also feel that the Jews are to be the Priests after the New Heaven and New Earth is formed. They, in my opinion, are to reside in the presence of G-d for all eternity, living in the city that knows not of darkness, but only the purity of G-d and his divine essence.

These are just my beliefs, and I myself feel very strongly in them, having my own reasons, though I will not share them here, because I fear that many will think I'm nuts.

Ok, this sux, I find a thread that really interested me, I made a post, and now nothing. :headbang:

still pondering your words, more in a minute

still pondering your words, more in a minute
really? I'm being pondered? wow, I feel I just went up a notch in the world, normally I just get told that I'm nuts or a "heathen godless bastard"

Oh I love how naïve religious people are, God is their world, The Bible is their life, Why and How can't they see that we all end up in the same place when we die?????

The Bible is sexist, homophobic and manys a time it contradicts itself!!!! Oh, i forgot to mention that it is a book of Stories!!!!! :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Oh I love how naïve religious people are, God is their world, The Bible is their life, Why and How can't they see that we all end up in the same place when we die?????

The Bible is sexist, homophobic and manys a time it contradicts itself!!!! Oh, i forgot to mention that it is a book of Stories!!!!! :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :eek: :eek: :eek:
18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[c]
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things - and the things that are not - to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”[d]

Oh I love how naïve religious people are, God is their world, The Bible is their life, Why and How can't they see that we all end up in the same place when we die?????

The Bible is sexist, homophobic and manys a time it contradicts itself!!!! Oh, i forgot to mention that it is a book of Stories!!!!! :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :eek: :eek: :eek:

to each their own, though I would say that most history books contradict themselves too, as new knowledge is shown. The old books were written at different times, thats why they repeat themselves. Most of the contradictions come from numbers, I once looked at the skeptics bible, and found they made so many points based off different numbers then on anything really meaningful.

We are all seeking to find the answers to the ever after, just because some people seem to care more about the way to a good reward is more important then why the world turns doesn't mean they are any stupider or smarter then anyone else, its all different courses to find the same end.

still pondering your words, more in a minute

hey, are you still pondering, or did that other person distract you?

Oh I love how naïve religious people are, God is their world, The Bible is their life, Why and How can't they see that we all end up in the same place when we die?????

The Bible is sexist, homophobic and manys a time it contradicts itself!!!! Oh, i forgot to mention that it is a book of Stories!!!!! :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :eek: :eek: :eek:
Grr. Another off-topic flame!

I mean, really, this thread does have a purpose. Care to read the first post?

Aren't we in purgatory now?

sorry i got distracted

Aren't we in purgatory now?
I saw a movie once where people were in purgatory, and they were faced with the tempations that had placed them there. It was a western movie, and some how a guy rode to it, and there was some gun fight, that went against the rules, and the wagon came to take the fighter to hell, but since he did it as a self sacrifice, he was taken to heaven instead.

Very odd movie, not too bad, but very very odd.

As for my own view point, no, we are not in purgatory. We are in our life, which in my opinion is a test. How we score now is what we will be rewarded with in the next. The bible hints that we will be placed above the angels, and have more powers then they do. Kinda like we are children, we have our rules, and if we do well, we get rewarded.

Anyway, to clear things up from my point of view... My beliefs I would think is probably similiar to Slinao.

First of all. Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and fall short of the Glory of God.

Hence, Everybody is a sinner, homosexual, non-homosexual.. doesn't really matter... Everybody is a Sinner

I do believe to some extent that all religion were once similar, or the intent was the same. Notice that all religions preach 'Do good'. Because that was the decree that if you 'Do good, you get to heaven, do bad, you go to hell'. Ever since the 10 commandments and other commandments soon after. Because the bible only talks about the Jews, I'm sure every other race had their own connections with God, hence people know what the concept of 'Good is'.

However it was always a question of "How good do you have to be?" And the answer to that is PERFECTION. Which is impossible.

I don't believe God wants us to depend on ours own good works for redemption. He wants us to have a continual relationship with him depending on him not on our own good works lest we boast. Something like during the time of Adam and Eve before the fall.

God wants to be a part of our lives. Hence he sent Jesus. Jesus is the loophole. Believe in him, and you would be saved.

Every other religion is still preaching the old wineskin, or The Law.

Jesus and his Grace and redemption is the new.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Concerning Homosexuality, I believe it is a sin. No more, no less than stealing, lying, cheating, and other sinful acts.

And if the person accepts Jesus Christ, he (the person) should know what is right, and ask God for the renewing of his mind to make things as they were. If he still wants to continue homosexual acts, it is up to him.

BECAUSE: My God isn't so weak as to let homosexuality or any sin stop Jesus's blood from washing him clean.

I believe the homosexual would still go to heaven. However I do not believe he would enjoy the fullness and blessings while his time here on earth. Like having his own born and bred kids, and a beautiful relationship with a partner of another sex. That is all.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Purgatory? No idea. I thought it was probably a Catholic concept.

Or it was probably another place known also as 'Abrahams Bosom' where the jews (and I believe people of the old testament before Jesus, who kept a decent life and sincerely wanting to know God) went, and where Jesus descend down there to take them up to heaven on the 3rd day. (Bible say Jesus descended into Hell, don't think it's Hell, rather just another place)

When will everybody realize that every main religion worships the same damn guy?

Seriously. The main difference between Christianity, Jewish, and Muslim religions are merely differences in which they choose to honor God (by practice and by interpreting his intent). After these few minute points, it all boils down to loving God.

So I say, lets not have Jihads and holy wars, but rather embrace eachother knowing that in the end we all speak to the same dude.

Can't we all just get along??? :-)

My beliefs I would think is probably similiar to Slinao.

based on other posts you have made, I expected something close to this from you. You, though, are better at using verse and chapter, I always forget.

In response to the first post:
No, it's not exactly true that Christianity means homosexuals go to hell.
Homosexuallity is a sin. Murder is a sin. Thinking "naughty" thoughts is a sin. But the whole point of Christianity is that God is willing to forgive us.
Theoretical Examples:
I deserve to go to hell because I got angry at someone.
Criminal Bobby deserves to go to hell because he killed someone.
Gays deserve to go to hell because they practice homosexuality.
The Pope deserves to go to hell because he once had impure thoughts towards a woman.

But all of this can be forgiven.

Now as for your actual question... Jesus "is The Way, The Truth and The Life." Nobody can come to the father except through him.

Although, I do believe that God "gives everyone a chance". So at one point in life they will have a chance to turn to Christianity... and if they die young or never hear about Christianity... God will judge them and he is a loving god, so he's not going to just say "You, Hell *points out door*"

well, I am off to bed, I'll catch up on this thread tomorrow if I have time.

based on other posts you have made, I expected something close to this from you. You, though, are better at using verse and chapter, I always forget.

Because I have PC BIBLE!! :D A program where I can search up any word or phrase in the Bible instantaniously.

However had to reformat my computer recently, and I kinda lost the program. :( Probably have to buy it again.

Didn't Jesus say something about the Kingdom of God being here between ourselves? Shouldn't that then apply to Hell as well (and Purgatory for that matter?) - i. e. wheather one's life and surroundings are Heaven or Hell or some kind of a Purgatory of indecision depends alltogether on our own choices and actions?

P.S. Infinity is infinite while the human race only consists of a few billion individiuals. Therefore it is highly unlikely that any mere mortal would have stumbled upon the one true answer to the big question about life, the universe and everything. Ergo: Respect other's faith - they're probably wrong, but then again so are you.

P.S.S. Death to Zionism - Long live free Palestine!

I don't believe God wants us to depend on ours own good works for redemption. He wants us to have a continual relationship with him

This is one of the most important, and most forgotten, things about the Christian faith. What matters most is your PERSONAL relationship with The Lord. Yes, one should pray for others to come to Him, and even discuss it with individuals who show interest. But, this doesn't mean we are supposed to judge. A sin is a sin is a sin. One is not worse then another.

I'm just glad you pointed that out. A lot of people, Christians included, seem to forget about the relationship part.

Purgatory? No idea. I thought it was probably a Catholic concept.



I don't recall any mention of Purgatory in the Bible. This leads me to believe that it is just a Catholic concept. I have a lot of problems with the Catholic faith. This is one of them. :confused:

The Good news.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

What God thinks of Homosexuality and other sins.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written. The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew

Well, I think that about wraps it up. :)





P.S.S. Death to Zionism

Over my own dead body.

What God thinks of Homosexuality and other sins.

Don't people read? I put it in large red, bold, italicised, underlined letters and clearly stated that this is not a gay thread! :rolleyes:

P.S.S. Death to Zionism - Long live free Palestine!
Me>100% agreed. FREE FREE PALESTINE. FUCK ISRAEL

Over my own dead body.
I know you ain't talking about supporting Zionism. Are you a fuckin Israeli? If not then you are just plain stupid, as opposed to being stupid and a heathen

I don't think this is a palestine thread, so go somewhere else.

To address part of the origional question about Jews. The Isrealites were God's chosen people, but they kept turning away from God. As a result, we have the new covenant. (The Jews don't get a free pass.) If any person (a Jew, Muslim, Morman, Hindu, Buddist or anything else you can conjure up) does NOT believe that Jesus is our saviour who died for our sins and rose again, then they will not enter heaven. The Bible is very clear cut on that point.

As far as sins go, there have been several good posts that are quite accurate, no one sin is greater than another. They are all just as bad in God's eyes.

I don't think this is a palestine thread, so go somewhere else.

Thankyou, I was just about to post that since I cannot find a way to lock the thread. :headbang:

I don't think this is a palestine thread, so go somewhere else.
Its relevant because ir shows just how far they'll go, doing the wrong thing in the name of their warped religion, including bulldozing villages, and murdering countless civilians. This goes to show that the Jews have much to attone for

Its relevant because ir shows just how far they'll go, doing the wrong thing in the name of their warped religion, including bulldozing villages, and murdering countless civilians. This goes to show that the Jews have much to attone for

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Strapping explosives to children and sending them to blow up civilians is not murder? I think the pot is calling the kettle black here. I don't think you are qualified to call anyone else's religion "warped."

It takes two to make peace. I don't see you trying very hard.

neither palestinians nor israelis deserve anything but contempt and disgust. evacuate them, irradiate the "Holy Land," and force them to find a new piece of desert to argue over...they can have part of the Gobi if they want, i am sure. they are nothing but selfish, murderous babies, and they should be firmly spanked by the rest of the world.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Strapping explosives to children and sending them to blow up civilians is not murder? I think the pot is calling the kettle black here. I don't think you are qualified to call anyone else's religion "warped."

It takes two to make peace. I don't see you trying very hard.

Hmmmm gee thats a toughy
for an idiot

No one forces children to strap themselves. That is an abjucated lie. Pre-teens have done it of their own accord. I would not call a single Israeli a civilian because they are an occupying force and as such, are subject to death if they get caught in the heat of it. Thats tough for them, but I wont cry over it. This is equivalent to the white people coming to America to take the natives' land. First they start the genocide, then build their settlements over theirs, and finally start the propaganda that they are mindless, barbaric savages that attack innocents

GET OVER YOUR FUCKIN MIND TRIP
It is a morality thing that they be allowed to drive out anyone there, because they are the ones whose currently being sealed off from contact with the outside, while Israelis can come and go as they please. Their idea of an accord is squashing all resistance so they can go right in and finish the job. Israel was founded on false pretense for peace. Why the fuck can they be trusted anymore now? They wouldnt be satisfied until they have everything

neither palestinians nor israelis deserve anything but contempt and disgust. evacuate them, irradiate the "Holy Land," and force them to find a new piece of desert to argue over...they can have part of the Gobi if they want, i am sure. they are nothing but selfish, murderous babies, and they should be firmly spanked by the rest of the world.
I just saw this retard's post. and all I can say is: HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA Stupid bitch
I guess racism is okay in the U.S as long as it's against Arabs. I guess blacks, hispanics, asians, and other groups are taboo. Well go on demonstrate some more of your fuckin ignorance. Say something about mexicans, or africans. Dont forget the eskimos.

You put yourself out there as a "Spamgirl" Well you're either incredibly young, or incredibly old. Either way, you definetely are a marshmellow: Whatever color you are on the outside, you're PURE WHITE INSIDE

Btw, Bottle, are you christian? If you are, then you should know what you just said about nuking Jesus' birthplace made alot of baby angels cry

Its relevant because ir shows just how far they'll go, doing the wrong thing in the name of their warped religion, including bulldozing villages, and murdering countless civilians. This goes to show that the Jews have much to attone for

doesnt just about evry country in the wrld have something to atone for? ripping jews or for that matter anyone else just makes you look a. bigoted b. misinformed and c. ignorant

The thing is (rants about Palestine aside and back to the original question) according to Christianity, you CAN be saved by good works if you adhere strongly to them. So I reason that according to that anyone, Muslims, Jews, whoever, who sticks to a morality that in any way corresponds with that of the Ten Commandments--which many cultures and religious profess in one way or another to regardless of whether they're Christian--can go to Heaven. However, that means you have to do it and according to the Bible will be judged by how well you followed it at the end. The main difference between Christians and those of other religions according to the Bible is that Christians have the grace of God that gives them forgiveness even if they do stray.

just checked out this forum, very interesting.
I would like to see the Jews and the Palestinians live in peace however if one of the 2 has a greater claim to the land surely it would be the Jews. They were in the region before the Palestinians moved in when the Jewish people were forced out by the Romans. Why shouldn't Jews be allowed back to where they belong? or should they be forced to have no homeland and discriminated against everywhere else?
Palestine was very sparsely populated when the Jews first arrived and they were initially welcomed by many Palestinians for their wealth and technology. I cannot understand why there is so much hatred towards Jews and their homeland still unless its due to people just not knowing their facts and history.

a excellent point well made

just checked out this forum, very interesting.
I would like to see the Jews and the Palestinians live in peace however if one of the 2 has a greater claim to the land surely it would be the Jews. They were in the region before the Palestinians moved in when the Jewish people were forced out by the Romans. Why shouldn't Jews be allowed back to where they belong? or should they be forced to have no homeland and discriminated against everywhere else?
Palestine was very sparsely populated when the Jews first arrived and they were initially welcomed by many Palestinians for their wealth and technology. I cannot understand why there is so much hatred towards Jews and their homeland still unless its due to people just not knowing their facts and history.
LOFL. There is no one more informed than me on that topic. The fact is there was already Jewish settlements all along there, they were never alienated or hated against, because they didnt bother anyone, unbeknownst to the other indigineous peoples that they were biding their time waiting for the Zionist movement. The Jews could've gone back to their region anytime they wished, but chose to migrate through Europe. If you recall your fuckin history, you would see that it was the Prime Minister of Britain at the time who "allowed" (like it was his to give) the Jewish refugees to settle on half of Palestine. Now the Palestinians werent ecstatic about it, but they welcomed them as refugees of war. THE VERY NEXT DAY! They led an attack on several agricultural villages, flattened the neighborhoods, and killed EVERYONE (Man, Woman, Child). I could go into how many things are wrong with this subhuman's post, but the fact it they got greedy, they wanted it ALL, and bulldozed countless Palestinian homes with people inside to build Jewish homes over them. An incident, or incidents, kept from the American public is that several times, Israeli soldiers would go door to door, knocking on people's doors, and whoever answered would get shot in the head with a rifle, then they would storm the place and wreck everything. Before you go attempt to take the high ground and pretend to know what the fuck you're talking about, keep in mind that
I WAS THERE

just checked out this forum, very interesting.
I would like to see the Jews and the Palestinians live in peace however if one of the 2 has a greater claim to the land surely it would be the Jews. They were in the region before the Palestinians moved in when the Jewish people were forced out by the Romans. Why shouldn't Jews be allowed back to where they belong? or should they be forced to have no homeland and discriminated against everywhere else?
Palestine was very sparsely populated when the Jews first arrived and they were initially welcomed by many Palestinians for their wealth and technology. I cannot understand why there is so much hatred towards Jews and their homeland still unless its due to people just not knowing their facts and history.

How can you claim Jewish claim to the land?

Haven't you read your bible?

If anyone can be clearly and definitively defined as aggressor and interloper, it is the Jews. I suggest you read the book of Joshua.

Regarding the 'being forced to have no homeland'... well, that's the fate of nomadic peoples. The Hebrews were nomads, until their genocide in Canaan.

The Romani are largely nomadic... I don't see anyone making a big fuss about creating a Romani 'homeland'...

whether the palestinians wanted or didnt want any Jews in Palestine is in my opinion not the most important point, its their homeland, you said it yourself when you said that some Jews were still there living in harmony. The British owning Palestine (kind of) at the time allowed the however many Jews as wanted to return and why not? its their homeland. Im British and if we had been kicked out of Britain a long time ago and persecuted for a long time in minorities i would be quite happy to return to a very sparsley populated Britain which i would view correctly as my land.
Your claims that Israeli forces committed autrocities probably has substance to it but then again so did the Palestinians.
Even then at the end of the day the only reason Israel survived its early years was mainly due to the incompetence of the Palestinians and surrounding Arab states at the time

How can you claim Jewish claim to the land?

Haven't you read your bible?

If anyone can be clearly and definitively defined as aggressor and interloper, it is the Jews. I suggest you read the book of Joshua.

Regarding the 'being forced to have no homeland'... well, that's the fate of nomadic peoples. The Hebrews were nomads, until their genocide in Canaan.

The Romani are largely nomadic... I don't see anyone making a big fuss about creating a Romani 'homeland'...

Well if your going to be like that then there is probably is no such thing as homeland as most of the world has changed hands and people on many occassions it would be impossible to tell whos land it was first.
I do believe in the Bible, but if we are following that far back then its fair to say anyone can live anywhere because we all date back to Adam and Eve who could inherit the whole earth

how much claim the Jews have is questinable but i believe it to be greater than Palestinian claim to the land

Well if your going to be like that then there is probably is no such thing as homeland as most of the world has changed hands and people on many occassions it would be impossible to tell whos land it was first.
I do believe in the Bible, but if we are following that far back then its fair to say anyone can live anywhere because we all date back to Adam and Eve who could inherit the whole earth

Except that Cain quite clearly married a non-Adamic bride... so there must have been other people somewhere already, even if you buy the biblical myth.

how much claim the Jews have is questinable but i believe it to be greater than Palestinian claim to the land

What you 'believe' is irrelevent.

The truth of the matter is, a concerted effort by western powers enforced the relocation of a people, to suit their own political goals.

That was wrong, and means that Israel (as a state) was born of contention.

You would have thought that the lessons of Manifest Destiny would have been learned... enforced relocations NEVER solve problems.

Because actions speak louder than words

Not always.

whether the palestinians wanted or didnt want any Jews in Palestine is in my opinion not the most important point, its their homeland, you said it yourself when you said that some Jews were still there living in harmony. The British owning Palestine (kind of) at the time allowed the however many Jews as wanted to return and why not? its their homeland. Im British and if we had been kicked out of Britain a long time ago and persecuted for a long time in minorities i would be quite happy to return to a very sparsley populated Britain which i would view correctly as my land.
Your claims that Israeli forces committed autrocities probably has substance to it but then again so did the Palestinians.
Even then at the end of the day the only reason Israel survived its early years was mainly due to the incompetence of the Palestinians and surrounding Arab states at the timeIts their homeland, sure, fine. Its the Arabs' too. The british had no fuckin place to make that decision about someone else's land. You used a theoretical statement of how IF you had been kicked out you would want to return... yes theoretically it would be all within youre claim, but that has NO RELEVANCE!! Well I could go on but I want to end this with a question that I think has the answer you are too ignorant to see: What is the Palestinians' homeland?

How can you claim Jewish claim to the land?

Haven't you read your bible?

If anyone can be clearly and definitively defined as aggressor and interloper, it is the Jews. I suggest you read the book of Joshua.

Regarding the 'being forced to have no homeland'... well, that's the fate of nomadic peoples. The Hebrews were nomads, until their genocide in Canaan.

The Romani are largely nomadic... I don't see anyone making a big fuss about creating a Romani 'homeland'...
Also to point out if one uses the Bible to back up his point he can't just pick and chose, the land in question was given to Israel from God and so it says in the Bible.

Also to point out if one uses the Bible to back up his point he can't just pick and chose, the land in question was given to Israel from God and so it says in the Bible.
You do realize that the Israelites included western arabs?

Its their homeland, sure, fine. Its the Arabs' too. The british had no fuckin place to make that decision about someone else's land. You used a theoretical statement of how IF you had been kicked out you would want to return... yes theoretically it would be all within youre claim, but that has NO RELEVANCE!! Well I could go on but I want to end this with a question that I think has the answer you are too ignorant to see: What is the Palestinians' homeland?
what the Palestinians homeland is i don't know but if the Jews are placed anywhere else then Jews will be persecuted far more than if Palestinains were placed elsewhere. Particularly in the surrounding Arab states were the Palestinians would not be kanywhere near as persecuted as Jews would be.
Personally my ideal scenario would be for 2 states to live alongside each other in Israel or be incorporated into one larger state

You do realize that the Israelites included western arabs?
Whats the relevance of that? serious question

Whats the relevance of that? serious question
THE RELEVANCE IS: If you are going to give all claim to the jews because the bible says "Israelites" KNOW THE FUCKIN DEFINITION

what the Palestinians homeland is i don't know but if the Jews are placed anywhere else then Jews will be persecuted far more than if Palestinains were placed elsewhere. Particularly in the surrounding Arab states were the Palestinians would not be kanywhere near as persecuted as Jews would be.
Personally my ideal scenario would be for 2 states to live alongside each other in Israel or be incorporated into one larger state
NOW Do you understand why I ended that post with a Question? The Hebrews have lived on that land for roughly 3,000 years. Evidence shows that the Palestinians were there since the Pre-Neolithic age (18,000 bce) IT IS THEIR HOMELAND. Now you asked if the jews were placed anywhere else, they would get persecuted. The answer is: IRRELEVANT!!!! that doesnt give them the right to force onto other's land, and YES I DO ACKNOWLEDGE SOME OF THEIR CLAIM BUT NOT TOTAL!!! THEY NEVER HAD IT ALL (only 1/6 at best)!!! Then you say they would get persecuted more than the palestinians... What about Poland? Russia? First of all theres several other areas they coulda been deposited. Now the way you said it, you said the jews would be placed there while the palestinians were relocated? What the fuck kind of hypothetical is that? Just because they would be persecuted and get their feelings hurt, does that mean to avoid that, place them somewhere where they can persecute and commit genocide? You can see why I wouldnt cry over that predicament. Now you're Ideal situation was the most reasonable thing you said, and i'm not against sharing... BUT THEY ARE THE ONES WHO ARE TAKING IT ALL, They are the greedy ones!!!

Just read back to the original post and again very interesting. Again i cannot say that i know how people will be exactly judged by God, however if we are to believe the Bible (the word of God) as all Christians should do then it does seem quite clear that Muslims are not allowed into heaven. This is simply because they do not acknowledge Christ for who he is and so cannot benefit from Christs divine gift of grace and forgiveness. If you believe Jesus was only a prophet and not the son of God how can you then believe he will be able to forgive your sins.
I cannot be sure whether homosexuals will go to hell, homosexuality is certainly a sin but some claim just like other sind it can be forgiven. I agree it can be forgiven but in order to forgive one must repent and ask for forgivness in the belief that Jesus will forgive them. Therefore if a gay person doesnt regard it as a sin is he truely repentant?, also would a person who truely worships and believes in God continue to live a sinful way of living without acknowledging it as a sin and trying to stop. Again i stress who am i to judge who will be allowed in to Heaven or go to Hell, however there is a grave warning that most Gays do appear to be going to Hell. Of course there is still time to change their sinful ways and turn to Christ for forgiveness but if not although i cannot claim to haver the definitive answer they seem to be heading for Hell, something which must be urgently resolved

I could care less about what other people believe.
What matters to me is what I believe, and if anyone's going to work on going to heaven for anyone, I'm working for me before I worry about someone else.

I'm not worried, for instance, whether or not you're going to hell for what you do. So you can live your life however you like. I'm not God and I don't make the rules. As long as you leave me alone, I could care less if you like putting rabid weasels in your pants.

And as for Purgatory, who cares?

Just read back to the original post and again very interesting. Again i cannot say that i know how people will be exactly judged by God, however if we are to believe the Bible (the word of God) as all Christians should do then it does seem quite clear that Muslims are not allowed into heaven. This is simply because they do not acknowledge Christ for who he is and so cannot benefit from Christs divine gift of grace and forgiveness. If you believe Jesus was only a prophet and not the son of God how can you then believe he will be able to forgive your sins.
I cannot be sure whether homosexuals will go to hell, homosexuality is certainly a sin but some claim just like other sind it can be forgiven. I agree it can be forgiven but in order to forgive one must repent and ask for forgivness in the belief that Jesus will forgive them. Therefore if a gay person doesnt regard it as a sin is he truely repentant?, also would a person who truely worships and believes in God continue to live a sinful way of living without acknowledging it as a sin and trying to stop. Again i stress who am i to judge who will be allowed in to Heaven or go to Hell, however there is a grave warning that most Gays do appear to be going to Hell. Of course there is still time to change their sinful ways and turn to Christ for forgiveness but if not although i cannot claim to haver the definitive answer they seem to be heading for Hell, something which must be urgently resolved
ROFLMFAOOL HAHAHAHAHAHA

Okay okay let me regain my composure from reading the hilarious bullshit and actually say something.

You said you are British, and normally something so heinous would sorta give a hint about a community, but I happen to have a few British friends myself, one of which is homosexual, and he is a great person. I also have friends who are homosexual and bisexual who are American. I am straight, and have never felt that way or anything like that, but I have a certain respect for them as humans, which is more than you seem to, and my British friends, gay and straight, have no qualms or think twice about it. You must be from a polar opposite.
Btw what religion are you? What sect of Christianity. I would like to read that pamphlet...

NOW Do you understand why I ended that post with a Question? The Hebrews have lived on that land for roughly 3,000 years. Evidence shows that the Palestinians were there since the Pre-Neolithic age (18,000 bce) IT IS THEIR HOMELAND. Now you asked if the jews were placed anywhere else, they would get persecuted. The answer is: IRRELEVANT!!!! that doesnt give them the right to force onto other's land, and YES I DO ACKNOWLEDGE SOME OF THEIR CLAIM BUT NOT TOTAL!!! THEY NEVER HAD IT ALL (only 1/6 at best)!!! Then you say they would get persecuted more than the palestinians... What about Poland? Russia? First of all theres several other areas they coulda been deposited. Now the way you said it, you said the jews would be placed there while the palestinians were relocated? What the fuck kind of hypothetical is that? Just because they would be persecuted and get their feelings hurt, does that mean to avoid that, place them somewhere where they can persecute and commit genocide? You can see why I wouldnt cry over that predicament. Now you're Ideal situation was the most reasonable thing you said, and i'm not against sharing... BUT THEY ARE THE ONES WHO ARE TAKING IT ALL, They are the greedy ones!!!
im not sure i would agree with all of your reasoning though, i feel you are somewhat subject to bias in favour of the Palestinians. I think the Jews being persecuted elsewhere is highly relevant. I also think that the Jews probably had significantly greater territory before than now anyway. Proving who used to own how much land is nearly impossible anyway

im not sure i would agree with all of your reasoning though, i feel you are somewhat subject to bias in favour of the Palestinians. I think the Jews being persecuted elsewhere is highly relevant. I also think that the Jews probably had significantly greater territory before than now anyway. Proving who used to own how much land is nearly impossible anyway
Well I am Palestinian, and maybe that MIGHT have a bearing on "bias", aside from the fact that I visited and saw the carnage firsthand. And theoretically, even if it was relevant, LIKE I SAID, there were many other places, I listed a couple, they coulda been put on. As for what you think about who had what, you already demonstrated your stupidity. You dont know shit. Just resign your account and stop posting, before your perceived IQ drops another 10 points (careful, you already teeter on the retarded side)

ROFLMFAOOL HAHAHAHAHAHA

Okay okay let me regain my composure from reading the hilarious bullshit and actually say something.

You said you are British, and normally something so heinous would sorta give a hint about a community, but I happen to have a few British friends myself, one of which is homosexual, and he is a great person. I also have friends who are homosexual and bisexual who are American. I am straight, and have never felt that way or anything like that, but I have a certain respect for them as humans, which is more than you seem to, and my British friends, gay and straight, have no qualms or think twice about it. You must be from a polar opposite.
Btw what religion are you? What sect of Christianity. I would like to read that pamphlet...
The fact that you have gay friends is irrelevant, Christians who claim homosexuality is not a sin are not actually christians but just people who read what they want to hear and ignore the hard truths. Clear enough as that. I dont hate Gays i disagree with homosexuality but do not hate gays rather "like" them as people but if they fail to acknowledge the unnatural act of homosexuality is wrong then they are heading to hell, although they can always change their mind and be forgiven. Those christians who claim homsexuality is ok basically undermine christianity as they dont believe what God tells them in the Bible.

Well I am Palestinian, and maybe that MIGHT have a bearing on "bias", aside from the fact that I visited and saw the carnage firsthand. And theoretically, even if it was relevant, LIKE I SAID, there were many other places, I listed a couple, they coulda been put on. As for what you think about who had what, you already demonstrated your stupidity. You dont know shit. Just resign your account and stop posting, before your perceived IQ drops another 10 points (careful, you already teeter on the retarded side)
Well are you going to prove the old territories with your non existant evidence or just make vague, sweeping comments because you dont like the fact that the Jews have more of a claim to the land than you do and that the fact that they currently occupy so much of Palestine is due to yiour failings, point the finger at yourself. Where is the evidence of old territories or are you just going to be rude ansd insult rather than hold an intellectual conversation

I am ample able to hold an intelligent conversation. Any outburst on my part are at you incredulous rants. The last 2 posts you just did covers what we went over. I wont dignify it with a direct response, but there is EXISTANT EVIDENCE!!!

ROFLMFAOOL HAHAHAHAHAHA

Okay okay let me regain my composure from reading the hilarious bullshit and actually say something.

You said you are British, and normally something so heinous would sorta give a hint about a community, but I happen to have a few British friends myself, one of which is homosexual, and he is a great person. I also have friends who are homosexual and bisexual who are American. I am straight, and have never felt that way or anything like that, but I have a certain respect for them as humans, which is more than you seem to, and my British friends, gay and straight, have no qualms or think twice about it. You must be from a polar opposite.
Btw what religion are you? What sect of Christianity. I would like to read that pamphlet...
i respect gays as humans, its just they are sinning and nt acknowleding it, i love them as much as any other person

BTW, your IQ just dropped to 60. CONGRATS!!! You are below retarded.

I am ample able to hold an intelligent conversation. Any outburst on my part are at you incredulous rants. The last 2 posts you just did covers what we went over. I wont dignify it with a direct response, but there is EXISTANT EVIDENCE!!!
where is this evidence and how may i see it, is it conclusive? objective? is it just territories at one point in time?

is it just territories at one point in time?Isnt that what they all are? besides, the main point was the genocide and destruction

BTW, your IQ just dropped to 60. CONGRATS!!! You are below retarded.
so where do u currently live? are u religious?

Isnt that what they all are? besides, the main point was the genocide and destruction
which the Palestinians committed aswell and continue to commit more than the Jews whilst exaggerating the autrocities the Jews do commit, ie Dier Yassin

Isnt that what they all are? besides, the main point was the genocide and destruction
stop avoiding the question and tell me where i can find?see this evidence you speak of

which the Palestinians committed aswell and continue to commit more than the Jews whilst exaggerating the autrocities the Jews do commit, ie Dier Yassin
I wish the Palestinians were doing it more. Actually it started to even out only recently, it used to be only the jews. considering they are the invaders, they need to be eradicated, but considering your people have been on that side of the spectrum for centuries, I cant expect you to relate.

I am ample able to hold an intelligent conversation. Any outburst on my part are at you incredulous rants. The last 2 posts you just did covers what we went over. I wont dignify it with a direct response, but there is EXISTANT EVIDENCE!!!
Then allow me an incredulous rant. The "Palestinians" so called, have no right to the land they claim. None whatsoever, they gave up whatever meager claim (and it wasn't a particularly strong one) when they started blowing up busloads of schoolkids. Now they all need to be relocated somewhere they can't blame Israel for the problems they create on their own, and where they can't be a threat to anyone else. Try an island in the South Pacific, which we can guard them to make sure none of the murderous lunatics get off.

so where do u currently live? are u religious?
I live in the U.S. My town? as it said, a little place called NONE OF YOUR FUCKIN BUSINESS!, I know i got h8rs out there and I don't want them rolling up here. Am I religious? Moderately. I am equally involved in politics and social freedoms, the latter which is the real topic of my grievances

If the Palestinian claim is so strong, why hasn't the world risen to their defense? If their claim is so true, why aren't Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon invading Israel and destroying it?

Why, instead of wearing silly costumes and waving AK rifles in the air, aren't the Palestinians putting together an actual fighting force?

Why do they have their most effective attacks against unarmed civilians?

Why do they, in infantry vs. infantry street battles, end up taking 10 times the casualties as the Israeli troops?

Why do they make such poor soldiers? Why did their leader loot his own people to the tune of billions of dollars?

If Arabs so outnumber the Jews, how is it that they can't just pick up a rock in each and and walk the Jews into the sea?

[QUOTE=Phallahstine]I wish the Palestinians were doing it more. Actually it started to even out only recently, it used to be only the jews. considering they are the invaders, they need to be eradicated, but considering your people have been on that side of the spectrum for centuries, I cant expect you to relate.[/QUOT
"I wish the Palestinians were doing it more", typical idiotic Palestinian view when a significant number of Plaestinians are not as ridiclious as you but rather more hopeful of peace. Actually you have your facts wrong again as probably more people in the UK support the Palestinian cause than the Jewish cuase, granted however the more educated and knowledgable people still overwhelmingly support the Jews on the basis of them having more of a case and being subjected to constant, uneccessary evil terror.
By the way i would like to know if you still live in Palestine or even whether you are religious?

Then allow me an incredulous rant. The "Palestinians" so called, have no right to the land they claim. None whatsoever, they gave up whatever meager claim (and it wasn't a particularly strong one) when they started blowing up busloads of schoolkids. Now they all need to be relocated somewhere they can't blame Israel for the problems they create on their own, and where they can't be a threat to anyone else. Try an island in the South Pacific, which we can guard them to make sure none of the murderous lunatics get off. Oh, you mean the seeds of the oppresors? I call that preventative measures, grim as they may be, seeing as they woulda grown up and started killing Palestinians. but your last part takes the cake
ARE YOU CALLING PALESTINIANS MURDEROUS LUNATICS?

Ok, rant over. Seriously, I think Palestinian cause has been severely weakened by their espousal of terrorism, one which none of their leaders are willing to give up. So, since the Israelis have established a stable, democratic society, I think we could ask say, Saudi to give up some of its land for a permanent Palestinian homeland. They have plenty of it, and they won't miss a bit of the coastline. Then the Jews can kick all the Palestinian out (just like the Arabs did to all the Jews in 1948) and send them all to this new land. Then we'll see if they really can form a peaceful state on their own, or if all the claims that they can are so much bull. Once the national hobby of blaming the Jews or killing them is gone, maybe they'll be able to apply themselves in a useful manner and we'll have peace.

Oh, you mean the seeds of the oppresors? I call that preventative measures, grim as they may be, seeing as they woulda grown up and started killing Palestinians. but your last part takes the cake
ARE YOU CALLING PALESTINIANS MURDEROUS LUNATICS? Some of them, sure. Are you saying Fatah, Hamas, and their ilk are a)not murderous or b)not Palestinian? It is pretty tough to argue either you know.

If the Palestinian claim is so strong, why hasn't the world risen to their defense? If their claim is so true, why aren't Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon invading Israel and destroying it?

Why, instead of wearing silly costumes and waving AK rifles in the air, aren't the Palestinians putting together an actual fighting force?

Why do they have their most effective attacks against unarmed civilians?

Why do they, in infantry vs. infantry street battles, end up taking 10 times the casualties as the Israeli troops?

Why do they make such poor soldiers? Why did their leader loot his own people to the tune of billions of dollars?

If Arabs so outnumber the Jews, how is it that they can't just pick up a rock in each and and walk the Jews into the sea?
well the answer is that the Palestinians dont have that great a claim and that also the main reason for the creation and survival of Israel from 1948 is due to Arab and particularly Palestinian failings. I dont want racial hatred but Palestinians blaming everyone but themselves for why the Jews are in Palestine despite their valid claim is ignorance

Oh, you mean the seeds of the oppresors? And you know, calling innocent kids "seeds of the oppressors" doesn't exactly make you out to be a rational human yourself.

"I wish the Palestinians were doing it more", typical idiotic Palestinian view when a significant number of Plaestinians are not as ridiclious as you but rather more hopeful of peace. Actually you have your facts wrong again as probably more people in the UK support the Palestinian cause than the Jewish cuase, granted however the more educated and knowledgable people still overwhelmingly support the Jews on the basis of them having more of a case and being subjected to constant, uneccessary evil terror.
By the way i would like to know if you still live in Palestine or even whether you are religious?
I would gladly take peace, you keep missing the point, I said that the Jews are the ones that are prolonging it and trying to drive them completely off the borders. There cant be peace under those conditions, and you say the majority of the UK supports us but you dont, so what in the hell does that make you? WHAT YOU CALL TERRORISTS I CALL FREEDOM FIGHTERS

Ok, rant over. Seriously, I think Palestinian cause has been severely weakened by their espousal of terrorism, one which none of their leaders are willing to give up. So, since the Israelis have established a stable, democratic society, I think we could ask say, Saudi to give up some of its land for a permanent Palestinian homeland. They have plenty of it, and they won't miss a bit of the coastline. Then the Jews can kick all the Palestinian out (just like the Arabs did to all the Jews in 1948) and send them all to this new land. Then we'll see if they really can form a peaceful state on their own, or if all the claims that they can are so much bull. Once the national hobby of blaming the Jews or killing them is gone, maybe they'll be able to apply themselves in a useful manner and we'll have peace.
i have to say i agree with most of this, the palestinian guys suggestion that they have evidence of their better claim to the land than the Jews is a lie

WHAT YOU CALL TERRORISTS I CALL FREEDOM FIGHTERS I call them murderous lunatics. To each their own I guess.

i have to say i agree with most of this, the palestinian guys suggestion that they have evidence of their better claim to the land than the Jews is a lie
And what evidence have you got?

no point in having a purely subjective discussion on this - any jewish person can point out the death and suffering visited on their people. ask a bosnian, ask a serb, ask a pole, ask a russian, ask a roundhead, ask a cavalier - the oher side is always a murderous lunatic/freedom fighter

Anyone who spends his time walking around in a "terrorist outfit" and waving an AK, while actually recruiting stupid teenagers to wear bombs into a shopping mall to kill themselves is:

a) cowardly
b) completely stupid
c) militarily ineffective
d) diplomatically ineffective

At least when the US President sends people overseas, he expects most of them to come back.

And you know, calling innocent kids "seeds of the oppressors" doesn't exactly make you out to be a rational human yourself.
There are NO INNOCENT Israelis. Not a single one

There are NO INNOCENT Israelis. Not a single oneAh, the voice of reason. What ever do you mean? So, with this attitude, do you really expect anything but complete dismissal of your lunatic objections and friends?

There are NO INNOCENT Israelis. Not a single one
right im leaving this conversation now that the obvious conclusion is clear. Obviously the Jews do belong there and have been persecuted everywhere else. The jews are there to stay so get used to it!

There are NO INNOCENT Israelis. Not a single one

Since it is well within the technical and political means of Israel to annihilate the remaining Palestinian population, could you enlighten me as to what is stopping them?

Could it be simple morality? They don't want to do the evil that was done to them - an evil you claim they are doing?

If they were doing the Final Solution to the Palestinians, they would all be dead within a few months.

Anyone who spends his time walking around in a "terrorist outfit" and waving an AK, while actually recruiting stupid teenagers to wear bombs into a shopping mall to kill themselves is:

a) cowardly
b) completely stupid
c) militarily ineffective
d) diplomatically ineffective

At least when the US President sends people overseas, he expects most of them to come back.How very true. I would like to quote Golda Meir, who said "As soon as the Arabs love their children more than they hate Israel, we will have a chance at peace." I might have mixed up a word or two there. the sentiment remains, and it is true. No one who espouses suiccide bombing is going to actually want peace, so the unfortunate solution is either to a)separate the two parties (see my plan above) or b)kill all the lunatics, in this case the Palestinians, since they don't have an economy or any productive output besides killing people themselves. I vote (a) but I understand (b).

Anyone who spends his time walking around in a "terrorist outfit" and waving an AK, while actually recruiting stupid teenagers to wear bombs into a shopping mall to kill themselves is:

a) cowardly
b) completely stupid
c) militarily ineffective
d) diplomatically ineffective

At least when the US President sends people overseas, he expects most of them to come back.
Everything you, SW, and G said has been dispelled by me, and I can handle this one too
They are recruited, but the ultimate choice to die free or live oppressed is theirs. Giving your life for freedom is not cowardly

Giving your life for freedom is not cowardlyTrue, in isolation. When this involves killing innocents (and theirs are often innocent victims, despite your murderous assertions otherwise) it is false.

Everything you, SW, and G said has been dispelled by me, and I can handle this one too
They are recruited, but the ultimate choice to die free or live oppressed is theirs. Giving your life for freedom is not cowardly

Anyone who attacks civilians instead of military is a coward. If you want to say you are fighting for your freedom for something, you fight for your freedom against the government, etc. oppressing you.

right im leaving this conversation now that the obvious conclusion is clear. Obviously the Jews do belong there and have been persecuted everywhere else. The jews are there to stay so get used to it!
Hah still never heard a good reason

Everything you, SW, and G said has been dispelled by me, and I can handle this one too
They are recruited, but the ultimate choice to die free or live oppressed is theirs. Giving your life for freedom is not cowardly

You'll notice it hasn't gotten anywhere. You've only gotten bad press.

Wars aren't won by dying for your country. Wars are won by making some other poor bastard die for his country.

It's a stupid tactic, and it makes the guys who walk around in those parades in the black scarves who do the recruiting look like well dressed cowards.

The idea behind a war is that you win - not that you blow yourself up.

When you get into urban combat with Israelis, one might conclude that the military objective is to at least hit some of them with your rifle fire.

Current statistics show that in a purely man on man fight (that is, men with rifles against men with rifles in close combat with no other supporting elements such as armor or helicopters), the Israeli inflicts ten or more times the casualties than the typical Palestinian will.

Much, much better shots. Much, much better soldiers. Put succinctly, even as military individuals, Palestinians suck.

Anyone who attacks civilians instead of military is a coward. If you want to say you are fighting for your freedom for something, you fight for your freedom against the government, etc. oppressing you.

damn right, except sometimes its not possible, sometimes people are so angry hat they lash out at anyone they can with no rational thought...witness phallahstine.......

Since it is well within the technical and political means of Israel to annihilate the remaining Palestinian population, could you enlighten me as to what is stopping them?

Could it be simple morality? They don't want to do the evil that was done to them - an evil you claim they are doing?

If they were doing the Final Solution to the Palestinians, they would all be dead within a few months.
They arent that powerful as you put it. The palestinians dont have as much artillery, but they have that and rocketry. A nuke would hurt everyone in such a small area, so that isnt a practical solution. They dont have the irradicating force you think they do, plus the palestinians can infiltrate. now that you see why they attack civilians (or not, if you're stupid) you can see the face of the situation

Also to point out if one uses the Bible to back up his point he can't just pick and chose, the land in question was given to Israel from God and so it says in the Bible.

Ridiculous... claiming that the historic elements of the bible guarantee the mythic elements is just silly.

The Hebrews CLAIM that god gave them the land... but Son of Sam 'claimed' Satan made him kill people... and Manson blamed the Beatles...

Read Joshua, why don't you.

God giving them the land, doesn't equate to systematic execution of prisoners, etc...not in my book.

They arent that powerful as you put it. The palestinians dont have as much artillery, but they have that and rocketry. A nuke would hurt everyone in such a small area, so that isnt a practical solution. They dont have the irradicating force you think they do, plus the palestinians can infiltrate. now that you see why they attack civilians (or not, if you're stupid) you can see the face of the situation
I know a couple people in the IDF, and from what I hear, the Palestinians aren't that great at infiltrating. Plus, the whole restraint thing bothers them sometimes, since they aren't shown the same courtesy by the lunatics they are fighting, but the IDF is restrained because they don't want to kill innocent Palestinians. The funny thing is that they do believe some of the Palestinians are innocent. Now, who sounds like the good guys?

They arent that powerful as you put it. The palestinians dont have as much artillery, but they have that and rocketry. A nuke would hurt everyone in such a small area, so that isnt a practical solution. They dont have the irradicating force you think they do, plus the palestinians can infiltrate. now that you see why they attack civilians (or not, if you're stupid) you can see the face of the situation

Why then, when they do fight Israeli soldiers face to face, do they die at more than ten times the rate (in man on man close quarters fighting - excluding artillery, tanks, helicopters, etc)?

Do Palestinians just suck at being soldiers? Is that it?

I think that it is not the place of human beings to tell annother human being that they are going to hell. only God has the perspective to know the thoughts and intents of our hearts, which will make up a large portion of how each of us is judged.

*a reminder to my fellow christians*

The Lord has warned us against judging:

(Mathew 7:1-5)
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou ahypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

(a mote was a small particle, and a beam a much larger particle)

we are all in the same boat, all of us sin and are in need of mercy. then how can we in good concience condemn another?

there is a quote I'm fond of,

"when you get to heaven
I think that you will view
many folks whos presence there will be a shock to you

but keep it very quiet
and do not even stare
likely there'll be many who're suprised to see you there"

I think that it is not the place of human beings to tell annother human being that they are going to hell.Hooray for citing the most often twisted piece of the Bible in the world. Tolstoy used the same text to argue that we shouldn't have prisons, or any punishment for any criminal, no matter the crime. Pragmatism is the answer there. And sure, we shouldn't be telling other people they are going to hell, but if they are actively murdering others, then it is a pretty good bet they need a change of heart before they're going anywhere good.

I've read this topic from both sides and have considered my opinions long and hard before posting.

First my background: Atheist, 21yo Student, British

Whether or not anybody is going to hell is none of my concern, each to their own beliefs (sorry if what follows seems to be off topic)

Zionism is plain racism – just as condemnable as Nazism

As to Israel being a promised land because the Jews were driven from it over 2000 years ago is not a great argument. So is America the Native American’s promised land? The Europeans drove them from their homeland. 2000 years ago! Entire peoples have been driven and have migrated all over the world, you don't see anybody else claiming back their "rights" to a promised land.

It would make about as much sense if I go to Africa, where the entire human race has its roots (unless you are an uneducated, stubborn creationist), and claim it as my promised land.

Another point - any religious control of government is a bad idea. Israel was bad enough, but now the US is under the control of a fundimentallist nutcase. (My heartfelt sympathy goes out to all Americns having to endure 4 more years of Bush)

Thank-you very much for reading my views.

Karl Williams

--=Deadlight=-

PS: George W Bush and Tony Blair… now that’s a threat to the safety of the world (but I better be careful, don’t want to end up in camp X-ray without trial now do I)

Since it is well within the technical and political means of Israel to annihilate the remaining Palestinian population, could you enlighten me as to what is stopping them?

Could it be simple morality? They don't want to do the evil that was done to them - an evil you claim they are doing?

If they were doing the Final Solution to the Palestinians, they would all be dead within a few months.

The only thing that seems to have held back Israel at all, for the last 50 years... is that every so often, even their allies can't stomach the abuse they inflict on their neighbours.

If the US gave them the backing they'd like.. Israel would have scoured the Middle East clean, decades ago.

Luckily for them - Islam is a faith of peace... and they've only had to deal with a few of the more inflamed members of the population.

Luckily for them - Islam is a faith of peace... and they've only had to deal with a few of the more inflamed members of the population.This would be the funniest thing I have read all day, if it weren't for the fact that so many people die because this happens to be accepted. Islam is a religion of peace only when most of the Koran is ignored, or creatively interpreted. I don't have a problem with the people who do that, because they are the ones who aren't out there killing innocent kids.

...Mormons who share two testiments with us and think of themselves as Christians...

the definition of Christian is:

Chris·tian Pronunciation Key (krschn)
adj.
1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.

The first article of faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (commonly refered to as "the mormons"):

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

also a passage out of the Book of Mormon:

(2nd Nephi 25:26)
And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

You may not agree with our techings, but we are Christian, by defenition and by practice.

If you'd like to learn more about our beliefs you can visit http://www.mormon.org/

The first article of faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (commonly refered to as "the mormons"):

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

also a passage out of the Book of Mormon:

(2nd Nephi 25:26)
And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

You may not agree with our techings, but we are Christian, by defenition and by practice.

If you'd like to learn more about our beliefs you can visit http://www.mormon.org/Except for the fact that you also believe that the Bible is false where it contradicts the book of mormon, that you believe Jesus is not one with G-d, that you believe Jesus is a created being, that you believe in salvation by works and not by faith, and that you believe anything that polygamist charlatan Jospeph Smith said is true, you'd be right.

This would be the funniest thing I have read all day, if it weren't for the fact that so many people die because this happens to be accepted. Islam is a religion of peace only when most of the Koran is ignored, or creatively interpreted. I don't have a problem with the people who do that, because they are the ones who aren't out there killing innocent kids.

One assumes you've never actually read the Koran.

One assumes you've never actually read the Koran.
You assume incorrectly, with bonus snob points for using "one" as a pronoun. I have a copy on my shelf which I have read cover to cover and annotated. If you are bothered about the translation, well it is the one the Saudi embassy sends you for free if you ask them.

The muslim reliion is counterfit, it's a direct assault by satan on the forces of good. Read this excerpt form the koran....

"Kill you mother, kill your mother, kill your father, we are al evil, evil is good" Oh sorry thats from my dragnet movie transcript......

You assume incorrectly, with bonus snob points for using "one" as a pronoun. I have a copy on my shelf which I have read cover to cover and annotated. If you are bothered about the translation, well it is the one the Saudi embassy sends you for free if you ask them.

I'm sorry, how was I a snob? Did I accidentally use the English language correctly? And you are attacking me for that?

Curse you, education... look at the trouble you get me into.


But, on topic (as much as it is)... if you don't see Islam as a religion of peace, maybe you should read it again... this time, without the perspective of preformed conceptions.

The muslim reliion is counterfit, it's a direct assault by satan on the forces of good. Read this excerpt form the koran....

"Kill you mother, kill your mother, kill your father, we are al evil, evil is good" Oh sorry thats from my dragnet movie transcript......
Thank you for that singular contribution to sane discourse. [/sarcasm]

I'm sorry, how was I a snob? Did I accidentally use the English language correctly? And you are attacking me for that?

Curse you, education... look at the trouble you get me into.


But, on topic (as much as it is)... if you don't see Islam as a religion of peace, maybe you should read it again... this time, without the perspective of preformed conceptions.
You know, I was wrong to attack your language usage, I apologize. But on the topic of Islam, I would ask you to read Sura 9 with an open mind, bearing in mind that most Islamic scholars believe it was the last Sura revealed, and as such supercedes all the others. This is the winner which contains such gems as:
Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, among the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they feel themselves subdued.
And
So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate(convert to Islam, ed.), leave their way free to them; verily Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
So, when you read those, and realize that the most respected school of Sunni Islam (Al-Ahazar University) states that these refer to physical combat, which is a duty of all Muslims, I think it is you that needs to dispense with preconceptions.

I'm sorry, how was I a snob? Did I accidentally use the English language correctly? And you are attacking me for that?

Curse you, education... look at the trouble you get me into.


But, on topic (as much as it is)... if you don't see Islam as a religion of peace, maybe you should read it again... this time, without the perspective of preformed conceptions.
you remind me of the baby on family guy..... Rather the way you speak.

you remind me of the baby on family guy..... Rather the way you speak.

Thank you... I take that as a compliment... I think... :)

ok excuse my feeble attempts @ brevity, but this argument is silly. Let me inject some scriptually based common sense here. The tree can be judged by what kind of fruit it bears, not by what is carved in to the trunk.......
End of discussion, hopefully

You know, I was wrong to attack your language usage, I apologize. But on the topic of Islam, I would ask you to read Sura 9 with an open mind, bearing in mind that most Islamic scholars believe it was the last Sura revealed, and as such supercedes all the others. This is the winner which contains such gems as:
Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, among the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they feel themselves subdued.
And
So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate(convert to Islam, ed.), leave their way free to them; verily Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
So, when you read those, and realize that the most respected school of Sunni Islam (Al-Ahazar University) states that these refer to physical combat, which is a duty of all Muslims, I think it is you that needs to dispense with preconceptions.

Any book, quoted out of context (ESPECIALLY in translation), can be made to sound twisted.

I can quote the bible in such ways that you'd think ALL that was in it was incest and genocide.

you remind me of the baby on family guy..... Rather the way you speak.


*sighs at the way the Grave One speaks* (yum)

ok excuse my feeble attempts @ brevity, but this argument is silly. Let me inject some scriptually based common sense here. The tree can be judged by what kind of fruit it beard, not by what is carved in to the trunk.......
End of discussion, hopefullyI don't think so. Brief and unclear would be the correct summary.

Any book, quoted out of context (ESPECIALLY in translation), can be made to sound twisted.

I can quote the bible in such ways that you'd think ALL that was in it was incest and genocide.
You aren't addressing the issue. I cited those passages because they prove my point. They are, if anything, more damning in context, and I am asking you to do a serious examination of the facts. However, your preconceptions are evidently more dear than the truth. When you can prove, from the Koran, that Islam is a relgion of peace, and prove that those passages I cited are no longer accepted as the truth by Islam as a whole, I'll believe you. I don't want your generalizing platitudes. Facts, supported from respected Islamic writings, is what you need to make your case.

*sighs at the way the Grave One speaks* (yum)

There's only one way to reply to that: :)

I don't think so. Brief and unclear would be the correct summary.
it is brief but not unclear, some things are just simple, with a little god given common sense. Islam does not bear good fruit rather fruity killers, simple as that.

You aren't addressing the issue. I cited those passages because they prove my point. They are, if anything, more damning in context, and I am asking you to do a serious examination of the facts. However, your preconceptions are evidently more dear than the truth. When you can prove, from the Koran, that Islam is a relgion of peace, and prove that those passages I cited are no longer accepted as the truth by Islam as a whole, I'll believe you. I don't want your generalizing platitudes. Facts, supported from respected Islamic writings, is what you need to make your case.

I've been through this before, with others.. on this forum.

I have shown the errors... explained the signifcance. Youare citing these passages as violent... which means you don't comprehend the context.

I find it curious that my 'preconceptions' would shape my response... which 'preconceptions' did I arrive at the matter with, pray tell?

what was the question again? :confused:

You're right Im outta here, i'll start another thread for my musings.

Hooray for citing the most often twisted piece of the Bible in the world. Tolstoy used the same text to argue that we shouldn't have prisons, or any punishment for any criminal, no matter the crime. Pragmatism is the answer there. And sure, we shouldn't be telling other people they are going to hell, but if they are actively murdering others, then it is a pretty good bet they need a change of heart before they're going anywhere good.

yes that passage is often misinterpreted. that's why people need to have the Spirit with them when they read the Bible.

(Jeremiah 17:5)
Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm...

(Proverbs 3:5)
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

(James 1:5)
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

in other words, understanding of the scriptures comes from the LORD, and no where else. most misinterpretations of the Bible come from people trying to understand it without the aid of the Spirit.

(John 14:26)
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

besides Christ taught the jews to obey the law when he taught,

Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s (Mathew 22:21).

Christ also said to Pilate that "My kingdom is not of this world (John 18:26)" therefore his teachings don't apply to human law.

yes that passage is often misinterpreted. that's why people need to have the Spirit with them when they read the Bible.

(Jeremiah 17:5)
Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm...

(Proverbs 3:5)
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

(James 1:5)
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

in other words, understanding of the scriptures comes from the LORD, and no where else. most misinterpretations of the Bible come from people trying to understand it without the aid of the Spirit.

(John 14:26)
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

besides Christ taught the jews to obey the law when he taught,

Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s (Mathew 22:21).

Christ also said to Pilate that "My kingdom is not of this world (John 18:26)" therefore his teachings don't apply to human law.
right on, see, simple truth....

Except for the fact that you also believe that the Bible is false where it contradicts the book of mormon, that you believe Jesus is not one with G-d, that you believe Jesus is a created being, that you believe in salvation by works and not by faith, and that you believe anything that polygamist charlatan Jospeph Smith said is true, you'd be right.

we believe the bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly.

there are many scriptures in the Bible its self that throw the doctrine that Christ and God are one being into doubt.

We believe that Jesus is litterally the son of God.

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. (2nd Nephi 25:23).

and your last comment is simply name calling, I tell you this, I know that Joseph Smith jr. was a prophet of God. I have felt the Spirit bare testomony of this, and no slander directed at his character can shake my faith.

I do not say this because I want an argument. I simply wish to defend what I know to be true.

It all goes back to ancient human wisdom, god given. That you can know what kind of tree it is by the fruit it bears. Over intellectualizing dosent make it any clearer, it just dilutes the truth.

we believe the bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly.

there are many scriptures in the Bible its self that throw the doctrine that Christ and God are one being into doubt.

We believe that Jesus is litterally the son of God.

For we labor diligently to write, to apersuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. (2nd Nephi 25:23).

and your last comment is simply name calling, I tell you this, I know the Joseph Smith jr. was a prophet of God. I have felt the Spirit bare testomony of this, and no slander directed at his character can shake my faith.

I do not say this because I want an argument. I simply wish to defend what I know to be true.
As long as you put the bible first and have jesus christ as your personal savoir then your a christian. Hovever the bible warns about divisions between christians. Just walk in the light and thts al you can do. Ibelieve romans has a few verses of scripture that apply here.
Romans 14 -1
1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Just in case you dont get it, this food spoken of is food sold by street venders in those days. Some venders were pagans and they sacrificed the animals to their gods. A man of strong faith would know that all food is from god and it dosent matter if it was killed in the name of some silly false god. It 's still good food. However there is a duality to the passage that refers to the overall preferences of christians. That if it is a sin t you then it is a sin to you, but not necessarily to me. By adding too many rules and regulations, I feel that some denominations strangle the spirit. I'm not bashing mormons, I dont know much about them but the point is, it dosent matter.

I've been through this before, with others.. on this forum.

I have shown the errors... explained the signifcance. Youare citing these passages as violent... which means you don't comprehend the context.

I find it curious that my 'preconceptions' would shape my response... which 'preconceptions' did I arrive at the matter with, pray tell?Where, pray tell? And what errors are you talking about? I am quoting the Koran, in context, and quoting the accepted interpretations of it by the foremost Sunni theological school in the world. You are giving me platitudes about "Islam being a religion of peace." You are the one without proof, without sources, and without a substative background to your argument. The preconception you come to the issue with is that Islam is a religion of peace. You are so unwilling to give that idea up that you refuse to examine the evidence uncritically. When you can quote the Koran, like I said, and prove me wrong, and then demonstrate that your quoting and inferences are accepted by the majority of the Islamic world, then you'll have a case. Until then, you are blowing smoke, and speaking with style, but no substance, on a topic you fundamentally misunderstand.

Where, pray tell? And what errors are you talking about? I am quoting the Koran, in context, and quoting the accepted interpretations of it by the foremost Sunni theological school in the world. You are giving me platitudes about "Islam being a religion of peace." You are the one without proof, without sources, and without a substative background to your argument. The preconception you come to the issue with is that Islam is a religion of peace. You are so unwilling to give that idea up that you refuse to examine the evidence uncritically. When you can quote the Koran, like I said, and prove me wrong, and then demonstrate that your quoting and inferences are accepted by the majority of the Islamic world, then you'll have a case. Until then, you are blowing smoke, and speaking with style, but no substance, on a topic you fundamentally misunderstand.

Well, thank you for the compliment. I like to think I do bring a certain style... a certain flair. Thank you for noticing.

I read the Koran about the same time I read the Bible, which would mean that I read both of them for the first time about 20 years ago. At that point, I had no conceptions about EITHER faith, since I didn't REALLY know much about either, except for the standard western immersion in quasi-christian culture.

Having read it first, I came to the conclusion that there were parts I disliked - like the punishments for adulterous women... but the same was true for the Bible... in fact, reading both parallel, it is easily clear that the Bible is much more pro-violence in it's content.

So - I came away from the Koran with the idea that, although I don't find it perfect, I find Islam no less tolerable than Christianity, and much more peaceful. I wouldn't be the only person to have said that Islam is a peace religion, there have even been vociferous condemnations of the recent violences by some prominent Islamic figures.

Since you quoted the verses utterly out of context - I see no reason to touch what you are proposing... and as for having to "then demonstrate that your quoting and inferences are accepted by the majority of the Islamic world"... well, I think you are just being silly, now.

After all, what a book teaches, and what it's followers do in it's name, are often two very different things.

Personally, I believe that Islam is a peaceful religion, just like Christianity is. And, I believe both have their dangerous elements, who corrupt the concepts for their own ends. I have met many Moslems, and they have been as peaceful as anyone else I have met... and often, far more 'spiritual'.

I think that no matter what form of christianity you believe, what religion you believe it all advertises this:


1 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.
<b> 4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not selfseeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. </b>

(I Corinthians 13: 1-8)


there are people who are going to make religion a banner underwhich to make personal war; in truth, in my opinion, you cease to be a true believer, a true christian/muslim/jew/buddhist/hindu or anything else, when you forget what the true purpose of your religion - peace and salvation- in order to make war and damn others.

"Muslims who think of Jesus as a prophet and Mormons who share two testiments with us and think of themselves as Christians, are they going to hell? I mean, we worship the same God despite our religions, don't we?" Quoted by PAtra something.

Jews will go to heaven because the hold the original covenant with god, Mormons are not christians but a cult of chiristianity who are actualy polytheistic at heart believing that there are different levels of god hood that they can attain and even become the residing god over another world. There founder was was a treasure hunter who found gold plates talking about christs supposed visit to the north american continent. Muslims I am not sure about and am open minded. True christians believe that everyone can go to heaven no matter what your sins. All you have to do to attain heaven and eternal life is to openly and with all your heart take Jesus into your life as your personal savior and ask for forgiveness. Accept Jesus as your savior and ask forgivenss for your sins and you will be saved its simple.

Since you quoted the verses utterly out of context - I see no reason to touch what you are proposing... and as for having to "then demonstrate that your quoting and inferences are accepted by the majority of the Islamic world"... well, I think you are just being silly, now. 20 years can do a lot to your memory. Go back and read the context, and then read the commentaries. You have "no reason to touch" what I am proposing because you can't. You either know I am right, or you are too lazy to actually read what Muslims are writing about. I don't care about the comparisons to the Bible, that isn't the point. The point is that, if you actually read the context and read the commentaries, and then look how those commentaries are being interpreted, you'll see that Islam is not, in fact, a religion of peace. Prove otherwise, I challenge you. It shouldn't be hard if you are right. Don't give me this "personally I think" line. Prove what you are saying. Quotations from the Koran, and commentary. I have done it, you haven't. Like I said before, I have the facts on my side, and you have no substance to your arguement.

I personally don't believe in the christian faith, I think it is twaddle. But from when I was practising, I was taught about hell, although I know that there are beliefs that the bible means death when it says hell, ie. Hades.

I am now very much in the belief that we just have to live our lives as best as we can and learn, obtain knowlege. Leave something of ourselves behind. That is eternal life to me. A "hell" would be leaving behind bad memories. We all have the potential to be great, its just getting there that is the hard part.

I don't think the bible is the word of God. Inspired by a belief perhaps, but I don't think IF there was a God he would limit himself to a book. Its very hard to explain away things like the tsunami with God. He either has not intervened making him evil, could not intervene making him weak, or does not care for our lives. Or of course he doesn't exist!

Its very hard to explain away things like the tsunami with God. He either has not intervened making him evil, could not intervene making him weak, or does not care for our lives.

GAWD IS EVIL AND THE DEBBILE WILL SAVE YOU.

As far as I'm concerned, there's no reason the Davidic Covenant and Mosaic Covenants aren't valid.

I know you ain't talking about supporting Zionism. Are you a fuckin Israeli? If not then you are just plain stupid, as opposed to being stupid and a heathen
I am a Canadian, and a Christian Zionist. I stand with the State of Israel, and I can tell you right now, sir, that there will be no "death to Zionism," no destruction of the Israeli State, so long as I'm around.

Its their homeland, sure, fine. [SIZE=4][B]Its the Arabs' too
There are three dozen predominantly Arab countries, covering an area 500 times that of Israel.

What is the Palestinians' homeland?
Since there was no such thing as a "Palestinian" between 1948 and 1967 (and prior to 1948 referred only to someone living in what is better described as "Eretz Israel), the best answer I can give you is: The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.

You do realize that the Israelites included western arabs?
And which of the Twelve Tribes did they belong to?

On that topic, all I can say is : Ma Fish Falastin.

i think it's not for us to decide who's going to heaven or not. besides, we're all gonna be judged differently anyways, so i think we should choose the path which we think is the best.

If the Palestinian claim is so strong, why hasn't the world risen to their defense? If their claim is so true, why aren't Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon invading Israel and destroying it?

Why, instead of wearing silly costumes and waving AK rifles in the air, aren't the Palestinians putting together an actual fighting force?

Why do they have their most effective attacks against unarmed civilians?

Why do they, in infantry vs. infantry street battles, end up taking 10 times the casualties as the Israeli troops?

Why do they make such poor soldiers? Why did their leader loot his own people to the tune of billions of dollars?

If Arabs so outnumber the Jews, how is it that they can't just pick up a rock in each and and walk the Jews into the sea?
Why are Kalashnikov-weilding terrorists regularly defeated in urban combat by Israeli shopkeepers with 9mm Jericho pistols? ;)

oh yeah, and as for purgatory, i don't really believe in it because the Bible doesn't mention it. i really have no idea where the idea of purgatory was concieved.

Oh, you mean the seeds of the oppresors? I call that preventative measures, grim as they may be, seeing as they woulda grown up and started killing Palestinians. but your last part takes the cake
ARE YOU CALLING PALESTINIANS MURDEROUS LUNATICS?


They [Jews] should be eradicted


Hmm....are you a "Palestinian"? 'Cause of I'm of leaning towards "yes" on this one.

There are NO INNOCENT Israelis. Not a single one
Does that include Israeli Muslims and Druze?

Now my question is, do you as a Christian believe that those who are not Christians but worship the same God as you do are going to hell? Jews, which I believe the Bible refers to as "God's choosen people" (although I could be wrong), Muslims who think of Jesus as a prophet and Mormons who share two testiments with us and think of themselves as Christians, are they going to hell? I mean, we worship the same God despite our religions, don't we?

Another question, but less relevant is, do you believe in the existance of purgutory?

In the Bible Jesus is VERY clear by stating that "NOONE comes to the Father but through me" this leaves very little room for debate. As for the Mormons (my son's godparents and an uncle of mine are all Mormon) if you look at the background of the religion and the Biblical history then the only conclusion is that Mormonism is the true Satanism. The very belief system says that after they die they are revived to join the "Council of Gods" and this is the exact same desire that got Lucifer thrown out of Heaven. I admit that this is an extremist look at it and I do believe that those in the Mormon faith are good people and do good in the community but they are being mislead. The Bible does refer to Satan as the great deciever! Jews are worshiping the same God but they are operating under the old testiment. Think of it as a constitution under the original you must live up to all the rules all of the time. Break even one rule and you are subject to the full punishment. But under the latest amendment Jesus took all of our sins and wiped them away making us pure and able to avoid the punishment we as mortals are due. The only catch is that we must accept his cleansing. After all if you walked out of a radioactive zone but chose not to go through the decon process you would not be allowed into the general population again would you?

Oh, he admitted it already. Along with saying "there are no innocent Israelis" and defending the blowing of of schoolchildren by calling them "seeds of the oppressors." He pretty much takes the cake as far as racism goes. Phallahstine that is.

i am strong christian, but i beleve that if everyone falloed their reglion whather bouddisiam, hindu, jewish, musliam ect. the world would be a better place. :)

They arent that powerful as you put it. The palestinians dont have as much artillery, but they have that and rocketry. A nuke would hurt everyone in such a small area, so that isnt a practical solution.
...so? Do you think they care about a "practical solution"? They'd use a nuke in a heartbeat if they had one.

i am strong christian, but i beleve that if everyone falloed their reglion whather bouddisiam, hindu, jewish, musliam ect. the world would be a better place. :)
Unfortunately, not true, since Islam includes as one of its tenets that no other religion should be allowed to hold public office, and that any other religion has to pay a special tax if they want to be left alive. However, offering the option of that tax is optional, and killing all non-Muslims is acceptable too. It is a real winner of a religion, as some of my earlier posts point out.

...so? Do you think they care about a "practical solution"? They'd use a nuke in a heartbeat if they had one.The Israelis have nukes. They are just the good guys, so no, they wouldn't kill innocent humans with one.

but when a reglion goes that far issant that a cult

but when a reglion goes that far issant that a cultIf you look at the definition of cult, most religions count. Heck, the Democratic party counts. When a religion goes that far though, it is mostly just incompatible with reality.

The Israelis have nukes. They are just the good guys, so no, they wouldn't kill innocent humans with one.
I was talking about the "Palestinians," mate. ;)

I was talking about the "Palestinians," mate. ;)
My mistake. Yes, let's cross our fingers and hope that never happens.

i agree did you see the "somthing(i forget the word but it startss with a h) cell" on abc last night, the movie about the cultss and terrisuam

i agree did you see the "somthing(i forget the word but it startss with a h) cell" on abc last night, the movie about the cultss and terrisuam
The Hamburg Cell. No, I missed it.

I don't own a TV. So yeah, missed it.

thees people think that what there doing is right to the point that they will kill them seves for what they beleve is justace

Though being the Conservative Christian that I am, I believe that Christians, Jews, and Muslims are all sort of "brothers," (though "cousins" may be a better term,) and they are all admissable into Heaven. Though not necessarily, they could be "Christian" but a hypocritical sinner and then go to Hell. Also, my mother has always believed that if someone truly tries to find the truth, and do good in humanity, they will go to Heaven. However, the Bible tells us distinctly that Jesus is the only way to Heaven.

Now, I have a Catholic friend, and he believes in Purgatory, of course. That's a nice thing, because someone who does Good Works but has no Faith goes to Purgatory for a while, then is admitted into Heaven, the idea being that after enough centuries of Fire and Brimstone, they'll Believe.

There are no atheists in Hell, remember.

Phallahstine: Instead of dwelling on the post, spewing mindless rhetoric (all I've seen from you is rhetoric, and hopefully you know what that is), letting your hatred out by saying "**** Israel" or "The Jews should be eridicated," you should be trying to connect with the Jews and thinking of ways to create peace.

Whether you think it is right or not, the Jews are there to stay, and they will not be leaving. Instead of trying to do a poor job of "proving" that the Palestinians are the rightful owners and the Jews have no right to be there, you should be trying to post ways to aid a peace process. Palestinians like you are holding back the peace process.

By the way, there actually are Palestinians who try to become friends with the Jews. There are Palestinians and Jews who have tried to heal past wounds and become the best of friends. It's not too late for you to do the same.

I'm too tired to rebuke most of what you said (only when someone posts anti-Israel/Jew rhetoric do I step in and set the facts straight and argue, but otherwise when talking about the conflict I would talk of ways for peace).

Are you willing to take a shot at befriending the Jews/Israelis. Even if you think they are completely wrong, YOU should be the better person and try to make amends.

I know you ain't talking about supporting Zionism. Are you a fuckin Israeli? If not then you are just plain stupid, as opposed to being stupid and a heathen
I am a Canadian, and a Christian Zionist. I stand with the State of Israel, and I can tell you right now, sir, that there will be no "death to Zionism," no destruction of the Israeli State, so long as I'm around.
I also am Canadian and I too stand with Isreal!!! The original agremment with Britain was that after World War 2 the Jews would receive the lands from the Med to the Iranian border, from Turkey to the Suadi border for services rendered during the war. After the war the Jews were gracious enough to accept the smaller state and how were they thanked? Serveral Arab nations joined together having had months to prepare to attack Isreal that hadn't even made it through it's first day. Then the so-called palestinians, who were encouraged by the Jewish gov't to stay and continue their long standing peace with the Jews, up and moved to other countries. Countries, I will point out, that 1) didn't want them and 2) have kept them in "refugee" camps for 60 years. Those who are alive in these camps now can't even lay claim to any lands inside the Isreali border. I have studied more of the background of the region than most everyone alive. So I will and can contest anything you are willing to throw at me. And if you are a palestinian then why did your own leaders admit that if there were truely to be a palestinian state it would be in Jordan? The more and more that you study the Facts and not the doctrine supplied by the palestinian indoctrinators. It is no different than alquada and company brainwashing children to hate and give up their lives for a doctrine that is as far removed from the Truth of their Faith as can be. The Muslim faith is actually one of the most accepting in the world yet by twisting the religion they make a doctrine that is based in hate. Hate I add for people that have nothing more than the haters and substantially less than the ones teaching the twisted dogma. Honestly who is the corrupt ones? Those living from hand to mouth or those with 4 mansions 2.5 Billion in the banks and 22 wives? Give me a break!
Unfortunately, not true, since Islam includes as one of its tenets that no other religion should be allowed to hold public office, and that any other religion has to pay a special tax if they want to be left alive. However, offering the option of that tax is optional, and killing all non-Muslims is acceptable too. It is a real winner of a religion, as some of my earlier posts point out. And again I point out that the original Muslim faith is one of the most accepting on the planet! Don't quote Dogma with me around it carries no weight with me. Besides the closest the Isrealis have ever come to slaughtering "innocent"arabs is by killing those living in the same houses/buildings that are used for terrorist bases. That is self-defence in the international book. As for Isreal giving back land they "unjustly" took from "innocent" arab countries correct me if I am wrong but didn't the States keep land they "won" from the Native Americains? Or how about territories traded back and forth between France and Germany or France and England over the centuries these countries have existed, trade by force I add. You can't tell me Saddam had any intention of giving Kuwait back after he invaided. China has kept Tibet after conquering them and has no intention of returning their independance. I could go on and on but I think you have my point! I fear that all this will continue to fall on deaf ears but hopefully those on the fence will learn something out of this. :sniper:

Your response confuses me a bit. Ic an't tell if you are for or against my position. I would recommend you read my earlier posts for proof oof anything I said about Islam. I quote the Koran, and a modern theological school that is widely accepted. You can dismiss it as "dogma" but the simple fact is that the interpretations I referred to are accepted by a majority of the Islamic world. I can quote further commentaries, but I am afraid they will fall on deaf ears. No one is willing to objectively examine the facts in this area, they point pretty conclusively to the fact that religious Islam usually equals violent Islam, and those who would make Islam a religion of peace have a lot of tradition and history to go against. I applaud those who try, but it is an uphill battle.

And again I point out that the original Muslim faith is one of the most accepting on the planet! Don't quote Dogma with me around it carries no weight with me. This is just a silly platitude. You can't prove it with anything but your own (laudable but mistaken) sense of goodwill. I can cite, and will tomorrow when I have time, studies, polls, scriptures, commentary, sermons and actions to show that Islam is not exactly accepting, and has been quite the opposite throughout its history. Whether or not Christianity has been the same is not the issue. I am talking about Islam now, and Islam in history.

20 years can do a lot to your memory. Go back and read the context, and then read the commentaries. You have "no reason to touch" what I am proposing because you can't. You either know I am right, or you are too lazy to actually read what Muslims are writing about. I don't care about the comparisons to the Bible, that isn't the point. The point is that, if you actually read the context and read the commentaries, and then look how those commentaries are being interpreted, you'll see that Islam is not, in fact, a religion of peace. Prove otherwise, I challenge you. It shouldn't be hard if you are right. Don't give me this "personally I think" line. Prove what you are saying. Quotations from the Koran, and commentary. I have done it, you haven't. Like I said before, I have the facts on my side, and you have no substance to your arguement.

You've quoted out of context... and I don't recall seeing much commentary.

Just looks like Christianity indoctrinated anti-different-religion-propoganda to me.

if you accept Jesus as your savior and lord then your a christian the bible says that even the demons believe in God so you just believing doesnt mean you are saved
the muslims believe Jesus was a prophet
the mormons believe that God came down from heaven and had an affair with Mary which goes against the bible where it says that mary was a virgin until after she had Jesus
the Jews rejected Jesus as the messiah and are still waiting for the first coming

20 years can do a lot to your memory. Go back and read the context, and then read the commentaries. You have "no reason to touch" what I am proposing because you can't. You either know I am right, or you are too lazy to actually read what Muslims are writing about. I don't care about the comparisons to the Bible, that isn't the point. The point is that, if you actually read the context and read the commentaries, and then look how those commentaries are being interpreted, you'll see that Islam is not, in fact, a religion of peace. Prove otherwise, I challenge you. It shouldn't be hard if you are right. Don't give me this "personally I think" line. Prove what you are saying. Quotations from the Koran, and commentary. I have done it, you haven't. Like I said before, I have the facts on my side, and you have no substance to your arguement.You've quoted out of context... and I don't recall seeing much commentary.

Just looks like Christianity indoctrinated anti-different-religion-propoganda to me.See, all you can do is say "that is out of context." You haven't actually attempted to show context, or quotations to support your side. I have offered some commentary (hence you said not "much commentary") and a host of quotations which I maintain are in context. Your continued insistence that they are out of context, without proof, makes you the propagandist. So again I ask you, show me the quotations, show me the commentary, show me the facts. I have done that, and if you want to prove you are more than a hack, you'll have to do the same.

Hmm....are you a "Palestinian"? 'Cause of I'm of leaning towards "yes" on this one.
Yeah BC. I would have to totally agree. It is the only way that you will have peace in the middle east since if not for fighting for their "homeland"-which is a complete falicy- then they would find another "cause" to fight for.

Does anyone else think being Buddist sounds cool?
I mean you sit around all day relaxing and laughing
o yea, and meditating but that goes without saying

I also think reincarnation sounds cool

See, all you can do is say "that is out of context." You haven't actually attempted to show context, or quotations to support your side. I have offered some commentary (hence you said not "much commentary") and a host of quotations which I maintain are in context. Your continued insistence that they are out of context, without proof, makes you the propagandist. So again I ask you, show me the quotations, show me the commentary, show me the facts. I have done that, and if you want to prove you are more than a hack, you'll have to do the same.
If you want to compare histories then you must take into account the Crusades they were some of the most violent time in our history as we fought across Europe and into the Middle East. The actual Muslim faith is very accepting of everyone it is only the cults that have spun off from the original belief system. That is like holding all of us Christians responsible for nut cases like those at Wacko Etc.... You can't hold all Muslims responsible for these so-called palestines they are no more Muslim than the so-called Christian that was a central member of Hussiens Iraqi gov't. I could keep the parallels going all night but I am afraid that you have closed your mind to the truth; not unllike some "scientists"/Darwinists I know.

Does anyone else think being Buddist sounds cool?
I mean you sit around all day relaxing and laughing
o yea, and meditating but that goes without saying

I also think reincarnation sounds cool
For your sake I implore you to choose a religion/faith based on your own research and beliefs not by selecting what sounds cool.

If you want to compare histories I don't. I want someone to offer an intelligent defense of Islam as a peacful religion. This means quotes form the Koran, commentary on it, proof that the view you are promoting is actually accepted... you know? No one has been able to. I doubt anyone can.

The actual Muslim faith is very accepting of everyone This isn't true either. The Muslim faith was spread, from the very beginning, with conquer and pillage, rape and murder. Muhammed actually presided over a sort of 4th century version of My Lai, and from that taught that killing innocents was OK, as long as they weren't Muslim. So unfortunately, you are wrong. Again, I ask you to go to the sources, read the Koran, read the hadith, read the siras, and commentary, and then try making a point you can support with more than rhetoric.

This isn't true either. The Muslim faith was spread, from the very beginning, with conquer and pillage, rape and murder. Muhammed actually presided over a sort of 4th century version of My Lai, and from that taught that killing innocents was OK, as long as they weren't Muslim. So unfortunately, you are wrong. Again, I ask you to go to the sources, read the Koran, read the hadith, read the siras, and commentary, and then try making a point you can support with more than rhetoric.

It's no more violent than the book of Joshua. Does that excuse anti-Semitism? I didn't think so.

well, technically, the bible says whoever believes in me shall not perish, but have everlasting life, or something close to that, i don't have one with me. the point is, with the God in Three thing, believing in one is believing in the other, even if you say you don't, because they're the same. so, muslims and jews, even though they say they don't technically believe in the holy trinity, because they believe in God. now Eastern religions, i have to say is a little tricksy. the best way to explain it is to use a Buddhist saying, "The Way of the Greater can be achieved through the lesser."

well, technically, the bible says whoever believes in me shall not perish, but have everlasting life, or something close to that, i don't have one with me. the point is, with the God in Three thing, believing in one is believing in the other, even if you say you don't, because they're the same. so, muslims and jews, even though they say they don't technically believe in the holy trinity, because they believe in God. now Eastern religions, i have to say is a little tricksy. the best way to explain it is to use a Buddhist saying, "The Way of the Greater can be achieved through the lesser."
How is your premise related at all to the conclusion? Trinitarians believe that the Lord is God, and that this God is three persons in one. Jews and Muslims and non-orthodox Christians don't believe that.

In the "I would like to clarify" thread Jenn Jenn Land posted

and Battlestar Christiania replied with


Now my question is, do you as a Christian believe that those who are not Christians but worship the same God as you do are going to hell? Jews, which I believe the Bible refers to as "God's choosen people" (although I could be wrong), Muslims who think of Jesus as a prophet and Mormons who share two testiments with us and think of themselves as Christians, are they going to hell? I mean, we worship the same God despite our religions, don't we?

Another question, but less relevant is, do you believe in the existance of purgutory?

I am not trying to start a holy war in this thread, just wondering what things look like from other perspectives.

Post Script: Just a reminder, THIS IS NOT A GAY THREAD!!! If you want to debate/state opinions about that go and create your own thread. It's an over done topic in this forum, frankly I don't want to hear about where so-and-so puts his such-and-such, or where Lara licks. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: My time is valuable, I'm a very important person with lots of important things to do, like de-canting the dipping sauce, so I don't want my time wasted talking about the morals of where people put their willies. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: THIS IS NOT A GAY THREAD!!!

Only those who worship God "In Spirit and in Truth" will be saved. Who those people are isn't my place to judge, but I do believe the Bible provides some pretty clear guidelines as to what a person's behavior should be like.

As for a belief in purgatory, I don't believe in it and can't find scriptural support for it.