NationStates Jolt Archive

I was in a conversation with a friend of mine the other day when I brought up disciplining kids. He thought spanking was wrong.
There's evidence that goes both ways: for some kids, spanking is effective. Hell, it worked for me. For others, it makes kids more violent and reenforces negative behavior.
What do you think about spanking? Do you consider it child abuse? Does the government have the right to tell parents how to raise their kids, so long as no real damage is inflicted (such as broken bones, burns, ect)?

Spank 'em when their young, play mind games when their old.

:D

Spanking and physical punishment develop mistrust, which can lead to long-term problems with other relationships that require a sense of trust.

I was in a conversation with a friend of mine the other day when I brought up disciplining kids. He thought spanking was wrong.
There's evidence that goes both ways: for some kids, spanking is effective. Hell, it worked for me. For others, it makes kids more violent and reenforces negative behavior.
What do you think about spanking? Do you consider it child abuse? Does the government have the right to tell parents how to raise their kids, so long as no real damage is inflicted (such as broken bones, burns, ect)?

Firstly, the government does have the legal right to to tell parents how to raise their kids, but I do not believe it has a moral right to do so. The lawmakers are in a difficult situation here. They have a moral obligation to protect their citizens and future citizens. this is one of the few basic reasons for having governments. However they are not privy to the details of each case.

Spanking should be a last resort punishment only. I know there are people who will say that it is always wrong, but these, in the vast majority are not parents and have no experience of parenting. I am a parent, I do have a real living child, for whom I am responsible. This responsibility includes teaching him what is and is not acceptable behaviour, the difference between right and wrong and so on. My responsibility is greater than just providing to his basic needs and then allowing him to do as he wants.

When he transgresses our social codes he is told off. This means a verbal reprimand, with an explanation of what he did wrong, and as far as possible, why it was wrong. Further transgressions draw further punishments, loss of privileges, restriction of options etc. (grounding for example). Ther comes a point, however, where consistent transgression has occurred and none of these punishments have worked. It is at this point that a physical punishment enters. It should be immediate upon the transgression. None of this "wait until your father comes home" psychological torture.

It may be an unpopular fact, but it is a fact that we are members of the animal kingdom, complewte with the inbuilt pleasure seeking pain avoiding responses. If the transgression results in pleasure, then the only really effective way of enforcing the code is pain. Limited in quantity, carefully controlled, but still pain.

I encounter too many parents who allow their children to behave in socially unacceptable ways in public. They are doing their kids no favours, the kid will suffer later in life when it finds out that it can not just do/have whatever it wants because it stamps its feet, screams, shouts and bawls its head off. Please parents, help create a good future for your kids by teaching them some limits.

Spanking is excellent. It teahes children that life is both cruel and unfair, also it toughens them up so that they do not grow up to be snivelling whining hippies.

Spanking and physical punishment develop mistrust, which can lead to long-term problems with other relationships that require a sense of trust.

It didn't for me. My dad spanked me and I love him more than I love my mom.
My little brother is rarely spanked and has severe obedience problems.

i was spanked as a child, i did not grow up violent or mistrust. i was spanked only when i old enough to understand that spanking is a consequence of my bad behaviour (around 4 or 5). my parents literally explained to me what i did wrong, what i should have done, and why they feel this punishment is fair (whether it was spanking, getting grounded, not being fed desert, no tv, etc). i feel it simply made me understand that certain actions lead to certain consequences.

what i don't agree with is completely abolishing spanking as a method of discipline or the government having the right to tell how to raise their children, as alien said. i don't believe it's abuse (just like drinking alcohol is not abuse, but of course moderation is key).

What, so that they become stone cold like me? It's not fun, and it takes a hell of a lot of effort to correct.

Why correct that? It just sounds well adjusted. Or can't you laugh at a joke or something.

If you are interested in this topic last week there was a corporal punishment thread too.
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=388741

If a child steps out of line and simple punishment fails, then a good spanking will teach them. If they don't learn, then repeat the same punishment. I was spanked, and I hated it, but it may have been a good thing.

The quick and easy smartass answer: Spanking is a-okay between consenting adults. :D

For kids... Before a certain age, let's say 4 years old for a ballpark figure, kids don't reason very well. A swat on the butt adequately conveys that they were doing something wrong or dangerous.

That said, spanking should never be done in anger and it should be done as close time-wise to the action needing punishment as possible. The child should understand, as well as possible, <i>why</i> they're getting a spanking. It should never leave bruises (on the kid). And it should never be the only punishment used.

I enjoy a good spanking...

I enjoy a good spanking...Receiving or giving? :cool:

I enjoy a good spanking...
Mmm me too :D

Spanking is immoral. It is a form of violence and it can lead to psychological disorders including paraphilias, which conservatives hate.

My dad hit me, I turned out alright.

Spanking is immoral. It is a form of violence and it can lead to psychological disorders including paraphilias, which conservatives hate.

Not spanking your children lets to them being bratty little shits.

Spanking is immoral. It is a form of violence and it can lead to psychological disorders including paraphilias, which conservatives hate.
I... don't... fantasize about little boys...

I'll say this for it: it did me the world of good. Fundamentally, what most humans, nay, all humans understand is the concept of violence; fail to apply physical force when it's expected and necessary and your reprimands, no matter how harsh, will be of little effect.

If I were to do something extreme, I would be smacked. I quickly realised the pattern that went on, resulting in a healthy respect for my parents' authority; even though there was resentment there, I came to thank them for it, because out of what was once fear of pain has grown respect for discipline. Too often, I see kids wandering around and causing trouble, and nobody can do anything more than tell them (or more accurately ask them) to stop it. Kids don't fear words, of course; they fear pain, like all humans do, and if you can connect extreme bad behaviour with physical pain at an early age, it will stick; the quuestion is merely one of proper and judicious application, and is one each parent must judge for himself/herself.

Though there is of course the potential for such methods to be abused, but based upon that premise, we would outlaw cars in case some unstable loon goes on a rampage with them, plastic bags because they can be used to suffocate, and fires because they can be used to burn people.

There seems to be the general sentiment of "I was spanked and I turned out just fine" on this thread, so I would like to offer an alternative viewpoint.

I was spanked. I am not turning out fine at all. And I know it.

The problem probably lies more in my parents' disciplinary methods as a whole than just the spanking alone, but I feel that corporal punishment lies at the heart of the matter. My father believes that the punishment should exceed the crime (instead of fitting) - thus fairly drastic consequences for pretty minor offenses. Overall I was a good kid - it's not like I ran with the "wrong crowd", hooked up with unpleasant boys, did drugs/alcohol, or whatever. I got, and continue to get, quite good grades and overall my parents seem proud of me. But like any kid I pushed the limits and thus deserved discipline from time to time. My father instead exacted punishment - what was spankings when I was little became threats of being slapped or hit as I got older. Going on the computer when I was told not to, for instance, might result in several weeks of being banned from it entirely. When I was in elementary school I would stay up past my bed time reading; this would result in my books being taken away. The thing is, I never learned from any of this. I always resented my father for his excessive punishments, and my mother for never saying anything even when I knew she thought my father was wrong. This made me even more stubborn and rebellious and more inclined to do things I knew could get me in trouble. I was bound and determined to prove to my father that his methods would not work. His threats - and occasional follow-throughs - of physical violence only reinforced that belief.

Now I am nearly an adult (by the government's standards, at least) and am dealing with the consequences of my own stubborn actions. As a result of my anger and resentment towards my parents, I never really bonded with them. I was always far too busy brooding. Now I do indeed have trust issues, and seem to be co-dependant. I haven't been to a therapist/psychologist, so that's just a guess on my part. I would discuss this problem with my parents to see if I can get counseling before things get worse, but that would require an actual working relationship with my parents...When I get very close to someone (ie my boyfriend) I get very clingy for fear that they'll leave me - and then turn into a control freak who expects very certain things out of them. If they don't meet these standards I become very upset and try to control them even more. Sounds just like my father, except I don't slap people.

Is spanking wrong? Perhaps not, when administered in the correct context and done very carefully so as to not leave psychological damage. But I feel that most spankings are done out of frustration with the child - the parent has no idea how to control their kid except through physical coercion. Then the parent does not learn proper discipline techniques that they can use when the kid is too old to go over the parent's knee, as is with my case. (I'm the oldest, thus I was the "guinea pig".) In a worst case scenario, it can lead to child abuse. Or it can lead to a case like mine - I function just fine physically and have no lasting scars, except for the ones in my mind.

The problem probably lies more in my parents' disciplinary methods as a whole than just the spanking alone, but I feel that corporal punishment lies at the heart of the matter. My father believes that the punishment should exceed the crime (instead of fitting)

Welcome to life, kiddo.

You commit a seemingly simple and paltry crime, but can get 20 years in prison for it. Your dad was apparently trying to prepare you for life. Thank him.

Other; In the bedroom :D

Other; In the bedroom :D
Mmm indeed.
Lol, but it feels so wrong talking about the two different kinds in the same thread...

I can't help but notice the popularity of certain uses of spanking.

Firstly, the government does have the legal right to to tell parents how to raise their kids,
Governments don't have rights. They have powers and authorities. ;)

Welcome to life, kiddo.

You commit a seemingly simple and paltry crime, but can get 20 years in prison for it. Your dad was apparently trying to prepare you for life. Thank him.


No, he just felt that if the punishment was draconian enough, it'd prevent me from doing it. Unfortunately I was one of those kids who possessed some logical thinking skills and thus saw that he was overreacting to everything and not "picking his battles" or whatever that pop psychology phrase is. Yes, he's one of those "life isn't fair so get used to it" types, but psychologically traumatizing your child is certainly not preparing them to succeed in life... :rolleyes:

I can't help but notice the popularity of certain uses of spanking.
I like it.

No, he just felt that if the punishment was draconian enough, it'd prevent me from doing it. Unfortunately I was one of those kids who possessed some logical thinking skills and thus saw that he was overreacting to everything and not "picking his battles" or whatever that pop psychology phrase is. Yes, he's one of those "life isn't fair so get used to it" types, but psychologically traumatizing your child is certainly not preparing them to succeed in life... :rolleyes:

Trust me ... he's doing you a favor! Otherwise, what would you have to talk to your therapist about? :D

I don't believe in spanking children as a form of discipline, or actually physically hurting them in anyway, but I also don't believe in government intervention unless the parent is putting the child through irresponsibly administered 'discipline' that would be better off defined as child abuse.

That said, holy grail references!

And after that...spank me. Oh, and me! Spank me! Yes! Give us all a good spanking! And after the spanking...the oral ---

I was in a conversation with a friend of mine the other day when I brought up disciplining kids. He thought spanking was wrong.
There's evidence that goes both ways: for some kids, spanking is effective. Hell, it worked for me. For others, it makes kids more violent and reenforces negative behavior.
What do you think about spanking? Do you consider it child abuse? Does the government have the right to tell parents how to raise their kids, so long as no real damage is inflicted (such as broken bones, burns, ect)?

Spanking does not reinforce violent tendencies. Beating does. Parents should certainly be able to use spanking, as long as they stop short of beating.

Otherwise, what would you have to talk to your therapist about? :D

aw, I'm sure we could find plenty to discuss...my obsessive reading of the NS general forum perhaps :p (I'm just rarely inclined to post, being rather introverted)

Sometimes the best answer is violence.

I don't believe in spanking children as a form of discipline, or actually physically hurting them in anyway, but I also don't believe in government intervention unless the parent is putting the child through irresponsibly administered 'discipline' that would be better off defined as child abuse.

That said, holy grail references!

And after that...spank me. Oh, and me! Spank me! Yes! Give us all a good spanking! And after the spanking...the oral ---
I remember that scene! "Well, I suppose I could stay a bit longer..."

Sometimes the best answer is violence.
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no.

I like it.

Woooo! :D :D :fluffle:

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no.
Yes I'm sure that the best answer to Hitler was to talk to him. Yes I'm sure the best way to stop a muderer is to talk to him. I am not saying that violence is always the answer, I'm not an idiot, I'm saying that sometimes violence is the best answer. Again I'm not saying it is ever the right answer I am saying it is sometimes the best answer. You can't refute that. There are many times when talk and diplomacy are the best answer, there are others, rarer occasions, where violence is the best answer.

I am a parent... I have given my son a swat on the butt when i feel i have no other alternitive to getting my point across or if the behaviour is inherently detrimental to his or someone elses health. A swat on the ass hurts a lot less then getting hit by a car. Now I can count on one hand how many times i have ever had to go to that extreme. My son is very well behaved. Now abuse is a whole different animal altogether, that is hurting for the sake of hurting, or not caring at all what the result to the child might be... I was raised by a parent who was an abused child. I felt lucky she broke the chain and did not do the same thing nor went to the other extreme and let us run all over her. I was spanked when i did something that would hurt me or hurt someone else, for everything else i got grounded or privilages taken from me whatever else... But I feel parents are getting afraid to do any kind of discapline of their children at all in case some person that has never had kids says they are abusing their children, those kids learn there are no concequences and then end up surprised when life hits them right between the eyes... that is not healthy either... there has to be a balance...

Oppress! Oppress! Use iron fisted diplomacy with them! Stalin executed or made disappear anyone who he believed was doing something bad. NO ONE stepped out of line! So, if one of your children do something bad, or you think they are planning something bad, off one. The other child will NEVER think about doing a single misdeed. They'll even call you sir, polish your shoes, and obey every thing you want them to do. Otherwise, you'll get liberal pansy-ass children who bitch about not getting every toy in their sight. 5 across the eyes/ass is all it takes! "OOO, that's not fair" Guess what little kiddies, Life isn't fair. You can expect the same treatment all throughout life!

BITCH :mp5:

I remember that scene! "Well, I suppose I could stay a bit longer..."
You are in great peril!

Spanking can be useful under some very specific circumstances, but it should be used with extreme caution because it can potentially lead to severe psychosocial repercussions in the child if misused.

I used to believe that spanking a child under some extreme circumstances was justified to make the seriousness of a situation apparent, if the child refused to see the seriousness.
I never had children of my own, despite having always wanted them, but that would be a different thread. However my first wife and I adopted a girl years ago. She was native Canadian and 7 years old. She had a history of neglect (left alone sometimes for days while the birth mother would binge drink)
When she was 11, we found out she was stealing money from my wallet or my wifes purse, to buy glue, she was sniffing with a group of friends.
Yes, after raising the matter, and being unable to get her to see where this would lead I spanked her, a couple of swats at the butt, with the obligatory "don't do this"
Kids today know the system. 2 days later she didn't return from school. Instead 2 police offices came to the house and arrested me for abuse.
I was charged. It took a year before the charge went to a preliminary hearing (the justice system is slow, not like an episode of Law and Order)
The charge was dropped, but the experience really destroyed the life I had. After a over a year of forced seperation, my wife wanted a divorce. I lost my business and had to move to another city.
This girl tried the same trick on my ex-wife, but neither the police nor social services believed her. She also accused another man of rape, which was shown to be fake.
I havn't seen her in years, last I heard she was living on welfare with a grade 8 education, addicted to drugs and possibly prostituting herself.

So be warned, if you think a spank will help a situation.

Some people like a good spanking.

Some people like a good spanking a lot:D

In my case, I strongly disagree with corporal punishment -- for children who were like me, or who had parents like mine. More often than not, I was hit, slapped, or struck with projectiles for no apparent reason. This continued until I was nearly 18. To this day, my mother thinks it is right to try to slap me when we have a difference of opinion. When I was about 12, I started hitting back when I was struck. Anyone who would strike a 12 yr old girl because of a difference of opinion has some serious issues. Hell, most of the times my mother raised a hand to me were when she had called one of my classmates a bitch, and I disagreed with her, calling her comment rude. (If an adult is going to call a kid he/she does not even know a profane name, of course it's going to be considered rude, right?!)


Anyway, I have no problem with corporal punishment for children who respond to it. For others,however, I'm strongly against it. We don't need parents and kids getting any more fucked up than they already are.

I don't believe in Spanking..

I believe in Caning.

I don't believe in Spanking..

I believe in Caning.

Caning is for those who do not love those they cane.
Flogging, publicly shows your love for God's law and your love for the child.

The problem is, every child is different. You can't spank a child and expect it to work even half the time. What you need is parents who are actually educated and trained in what they're doing, for best effect.

Of course, comming from personal experiance, a child will turn out as themselves, regardless of what the parent does or doesn't do.

When she was 11, we found out she was stealing money from my wallet or my wifes purse, to buy glue, she was sniffing with a group of friends.
Yes, after raising the matter, and being unable to get her to see where this would lead I spanked her, a couple of swats at the butt, with the obligatory "don't do this"
Kids today know the system. 2 days later she didn't return from school. Instead 2 police offices came to the house and arrested me for abuse.
I was charged.

Kids today do indeed know the system. Here's the point: the system is wrong, in every important respect. This isn't just with regard to kids and punishing them, but everything; Manchester has groups of kids who walk around slinging abuse at people, but you can't do anything about them, because the "justice" system supports their rights - the rights of the transgressor of the law! - above the rights of those who choose to abide within it.

That story just makes me even more angry about the stupid, inverted nature of today's justice systems, where fools and criminals are prioritised above their victims, but it doesn't provide an argument against smacking. Nor, for that matter, does it make me any less inclined to corposal punishment of crime in later life. Imagine if that girl had, if the police discovered her glue sniffing, lost a hand? I'll bet you anything she'd not sniff glue again. I wouldn't. But no, instead the system decides to side with her, when she's guilty of both theft and solvent abuse (a law there to protect her!) and yu're guilty of nothing at all.

If anything, that merely makes me consider that corporal punishment for those who transgress the law is of greater necessity.

I think some women appreciate them now and then! :D

Oh! You were speaking of children! Sorry about that! Heh!

I think the only time it's appropriate to spank a child is when s/he is in immenent danger of being severely injured, another child is in immenent danger of being injured by him/her, or valuable property is in immenent danger of being destroyed, but only after two warnings. There are lots better ways of driving home a point than spanking.

I have no problem with a swat on the butt (with a hand, not an object) on a small child to reinforce something is wrong. For example, if a little kid ran ahead to cross the street without waiting for their parent or looking both ways, mom or dad is justified to snatch them quickly out of danger, exclaim that they could have been hit by a car, and smack them on the butt to reinforce it.

But by the time they're old enough to think things through and recognize the consequences of their actions, spanking just doesn't work. Spanking an 11 or 12 year old doesn't teach anything other than 'don't get caught'. Punishments need to either a) withhold priviledges or b) be integrally connected to what the kid did wrong.

In the case of the native child mentioned above who sniffed glue and stole money from mom, the kid probably had fetal alcohol syndrome on top of the glue habit. My foster sister is very typically of a child with FAS - she's very manipulative, destructive, incapable of understanding consequences and relationships, and has difficulty performing tasks that aren't in a logical sequence. Spanking means nothing to her, it's just another form of the attention she constantly craves. The only punishment method that has any effect on her is ignoring her. Basically it's the same as a time out. You sit her down and explain that what she just did was wrong and was unacceptable behaviour. Then you give her the time out. Chances are good that she won't accept the time out and will continue to act out to get your attention. The important thing is to make sure that no one else in the house acknowledges the behaviour. You don't talk to her, touch her, or interact with her (except to keep her out of danger if necessary), until the time limit is up. In the case of FAS kids (at least in my experience, and I used to work with the developmentally disabled, including FAS), they are usually so desperate for your attention (good or bad) that this is practically the worse thing you can do to them.

The other problem is that once they are able to get out on their own, its pretty hard to stop them from making their own mistakes anyway. My parents are on a farm about 20 k from town, so their kids and foster kids are pretty limited when it comes to escape, at least until they have cars.

The sad thing is that it still doesn't always help. My parents had the mother of the little girl described above when she was a pre-teen. She also had FAS. Despite all the love and discipline provided by my parents, the mom took to drugs in high school and had her babies pretty young - so the cycle continued. Mom and Dad are trying again with her daughter, who they've had for 6 years now (she's 8 yrs old), and probably will have her until she's adult.

Not spanking your children lets to them being bratty little shits.
not diciplining your children leads to them being bratty little shits
it doesnt have to include spanking, just firm consistant dicipline.

spanking is not the best form of dicipline. spanking should NEVER be your primary form of dicipline

but it is very much better to spank your child (on the butt with an open hand) then it is to never dicipline them at all. kids who are spanked occasionally-- NOT beaten--turn out just fine.

too many parents who spank dont know where to draw the line. its better to study up on what you can expect out of your kid at different ages and to tailor your punishments to their maturity. for example, dont beat your kid for saying NO when he turns 2, its a necessary stage of development. you just pick him up and make him do whatever it is he said no to. end of problem.

I'm 15, almost 16 and until quite recently my dad used to smack me a lot. He used to use the belt on me. He still hits me across the back of my head whenever I do anythng which he sees as wrong. It hasn't made me feel any respect for him, just fear. And I still fear him because he's a lot bigger than me and there's no chance of me standing up to him physically. A few days ago though, smacking with belts and such was banned. Can't wait until I move out.

Yeah, so I disagree with spanking, in all forms.

I'm 15, almost 16 and until quite recently my dad used to smack me a lot. He used to use the belt on me. He still hits me across the back of my head whenever I do anythng which he sees as wrong. It hasn't made me feel any respect for him, just fear. And I still fear him because he's a lot bigger than me and there's no chance of me standing up to him physically. A few days ago though, smacking with belts and such was banned. Can't wait until I move out.

Yeah, so I disagree with spanking, in all forms.That is, by definition, abuse. It has nothing to do with constructive discipline. You have been too old for a spanking for a long time. Good luck and know that you aren't the cause of your father's abuse.

That is, by definition, abuse. It has nothing to do with constructive discipline. You have been too old for a spanking for a long time. Good luck and know that you aren't the cause of your father's abuse.


No, it's only defined as abuse in Canada and the US (And other places too I assume), but the UK has only recently banned it. As this person has pointed out.

The one problem with abuse in this case, when it's used as "dicipline" is that the child is not always smaller then the father.
Example, although my father never hit me (I found out recently he was way too scared of me to try.. but that's another story), he did threaten to "smack me upside the head" if I disbehaved, but later-on when I got bigger then him I just repeated it back to him.

Anyway, moral of the story, you won't always be the smaller one.

I voted that it is absolutely wrong to spank a kid.

If you want stupid, aggressive, frightened kids who turn into mindless rebels with a wish to kick people in the head in a sort of revenge for what you did to them, then continue spanking them. What do I care?

Mmm indeed.
Lol, but it feels so wrong talking about the two different kinds in the same thread...

The problem is that the line between spanking and *wink* *wink* *eyebrow raise* spanking is prety think.

Mmmmm paraphilia.......

Referance Oedipal complexes and the subgenere of erotic fiction that deals with fathers getting off on spanking their daughters.

Receiving or giving? :cool:
Either/or. -_-

If you want stupid, aggressive, frightened kids who turn into mindless rebels with a wish to kick people in the head in a sort of revenge for what you did to them, then continue spanking them. So that's what's wrong with my brother and I and most of our friends. My dad used to get the strap at school - is that why he's such a nice guy? and by "nice" I mean psycho, no really I do...okay so no.

I won't really know until I have kids of my own, but I can say that spanking worked for me. On the other hand, washing my mouth out with soap didn't work so well when I swore.

It is my personal belief that spanking is a sign that the parent is incapable of non-violent discipline, and thus of ineptitude, but I do not view it as "wrong" unless it reaches an abusive stage. It also depends on the parent and child--some children will not be receptive to pacifistic measures no matter what, though in pretty much all circumstances I view physical discipline for children as a sign of inability.