NationStates Jolt Archive

... And has no regrets! Yesterday a soldier sentanced to 10 years behind bars for the Abu Ghraib prisoner torture scandel said he had no regrets and said "bad things happen" You can see him being escorted from court by other marines, he is laughing. Justice is served. A witness said he often disobeyed orders.

They've better send the guys that ordered him that to do to jail. From dirty Rummy till the officers. They arer all fucking Nazi"s.

Yeah I loved how that moron had "no regrets". You have no regrets really? You are happy to be going to federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison for a decade? Its not like he even did anything cool like Ollie North, running a secret unauthorized govt' program running arms to terrorists in central america. He just engaged in kinky S&M fun with a bunch of naked Iraqis. Plus he looks like a total dork, especially with his coke bottle glasses.

They've better send the guys that ordered him that to do to jail. From dirty Rummy till the officers. They arer all fucking Nazi"s.

Calm down little buddy! Can you prove "Rummy" gave the orders?

Did you get this outraged when Clinton sent his jack-booted thugs to burn up innocent civilians, and shoot unarmed women?

Yeah I loved how that moron had "no regrets". You have no regrets really? You are happy to be going to federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison for a decade? Its not like he even did anything cool like Ollie North, running a secret unauthorized govt' program running arms to terrorists in central america. He just engaged in kinky S&M fun with a bunch of naked Iraqis. Plus he looks like a total dork, especially with his coke bottle glasses.


Why should you have to feel sorry and have regrets for your actions if you believed you were in the right, even if you were found guilty. Sounds kind of like being a mamby pamby sissy girlie-man!

He should have been turned over to the Iraqi's.

I wonder just how long it will be until he becomes someone's bitch. The prison population will already know that he's intimately familiar with man sex.

Should be a fun 10 years for him.

I wonder just how long it will be until he becomes someone's bitch. The prison population will already know that he's intimately familiar with man sex.

Should be a fun 10 years for him.

Federal lock-up isn't as bad as some state pens. I doubt he will become someones bitch, unless he screws up in there and disrespects the wrong man.

Calm down little buddy! Can you prove "Rummy" gave the orders?

Well, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that people in the Bush administration gave orders for the soldiers to abuse detainees, but there is evidence of blatant disregard for the safety of others (not enough training for soldiers, not enough supervision, etc, etc - blatant disregard for safety can be a prosecutable criminal offense) and flaunting of UN rules against torture.

"Gonzales’ adversaries, including the New York Times editorial page, Human Rights First, (formerly the Lawyers Committee for Human Rights) and some retired military officers such as Marine Gen. Joseph Hoar, contend that he wrote one memo and approved another, written by former Justice Department official Jay Bybee, which either authorized or at least set the stage for torture of al-Qaida and Taliban detainees." (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6790622/)

Im sure the prisoners in the jail he's going to will beat him down...you know show him what prison abuse is all about

Federal lock-up isn't as bad as some state pens. I doubt he will become someones bitch, unless he screws up in there and disrespects the wrong man.

Well, I wouldn't know ... never been to either. I'm sure, though, that with his smug attitude, he'll piss someone off. If nothing else, the Black Muslims in prison will probably like to have a little talk with him.

Federal lock-up isn't as bad as some state pens. I doubt he will become someones bitch, unless he screws up in there and disrespects the wrong man.
Who even ends up in Federal Prison anyway? Aren't almost all criminal offenses covered by state law like murder, robbery etc.

Is federal prison just for people who rob mail trucks and sell arms to al-quaida and stuff like that?

He'll probably get sent to Fort Leavenworth Military Prison. Tough gig, I wouldn't want to spend a day there. He'll have plenty of regrets soon enough, but being in military prison you won't hear much out of him.

After WWII men have been court-martialed and shot for less...

Anyway, justice has been served now. And I agree, he looks like a dork AND he has a damn ugly girlfriend, that Lyndie England girl - the one with the leash and all. *ack!*

Well, I wouldn't know ... never been to either. I'm sure, though, that with his smug attitude, he'll piss someone off. If nothing else, the Black Muslims in prison will probably like to have a little talk with him.

I thought your "religion" was about peace and love?

Who even ends up in Federal Prison anyway? Aren't almost all criminal offenses covered by state law like murder, robbery etc.

Is federal prison just for people who rob mail trucks and sell arms to al-quaida and stuff like that?


If you steal a car and transport it across state lines that is federal, kidnapping as well. Many other crimes are federal, pretty much as long as you cross state borders it is federal.

Yeah I loved how that moron had "no regrets". You have no regrets really? You are happy to be going to federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison for a decade? Its not like he even did anything cool like Ollie North, running a secret unauthorized govt' program running arms to terrorists in central america. He just engaged in kinky S&M fun with a bunch of naked Iraqis. Plus he looks like a total dork, especially with his coke bottle glasses.
He's not going to 'pound me in the ass prison,' dip. He's going to military prison with other soldiers.
Plus, while it was wrong, I can't say I wouldn't want to beat the crap out of captured terrorists, too. So quit whining. 10 years was too harsh.

Well, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that people in the Bush administration gave orders for the soldiers to abuse detainees, but there is evidence of blatant disregard for the safety of others (not enough training for soldiers, not enough supervision, etc, etc - blatant disregard for safety can be a prosecutable criminal offense) and flaunting of UN rules against torture.

"Gonzales’ adversaries, including the New York Times editorial page, Human Rights First, (formerly the Lawyers Committee for Human Rights) and some retired military officers such as Marine Gen. Joseph Hoar, contend that he wrote one memo and approved another, written by former Justice Department official Jay Bybee, which either authorized or at least set the stage for torture of al-Qaida and Taliban detainees." (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6790622/)


It's all hearsay and wouldn't stand up in court.

10 years was too harsh.

TOO harsh? You got to be kidding me! He tortured and abused people who had been put under his protection physically and sexually. If you ask me, he´d deserve 10 years just for the sheer stupidity of takling pictures of yourself while commiting a crime. It´s like robbing a bank without using a mask or hood to cover your face.

With a maximun sentence of 15 years he got away ratehr good with only 10 years - especially after he showed NO regret and went for the totally lame and unacceptable "I was only following orders"-excuse. Sure, Fritz Führertreu at Auschwitz was only following orders as well! Wow! What a great guy! Give him a medal and a parade!

*insert roll-eyes here*

He's not going to 'pound me in the ass prison,' dip. He's going to military prison with other soldiers.
Plus, while it was wrong, I can't say I wouldn't want to beat the crap out of captured terrorists, too. So quit whining. 10 years was too harsh.

You are kidding, right?

10 years wasn't nearly enough. This guy not only abused prisoners, doing such things as forcing them to eat out of a toilet, but has actually *increased* the likelihood of death of every other American soldier (or Westerner in general) in the Middle East by being the perfect terrorist recruiting tool. These idiots set possible good relations behind by quite a bit. As far as I'm concerned, he should've gotten the max possible sentence, something liek 25 years.

Makes you wish that they hadn't abolished whipping eh?

I thought your "religion" was about peace and love?

It is. However, the Nation of Islam is not. The Black Muslims in prison are generally Nation of Islam.

He's not going to 'pound me in the ass prison,' dip. He's going to military prison with other soldiers.
Plus, while it was wrong, I can't say I wouldn't want to beat the crap out of captured terrorists, too. So quit whining. 10 years was too harsh.

You'd be surprised how harsh military prison can be.

He's not going to 'pound me in the ass prison,' dip. He's going to military prison with other soldiers.
Plus, while it was wrong, I can't say I wouldn't want to beat the crap out of captured terrorists, too. So quit whining. 10 years was too harsh.
You really are fuckin stupid. First of all they werent terrorists. If you watch any news channel in the WORLD except the United States of Opression, you would know that teams of soldiers went into neighborhoods suspected of "terror activities" and kidnapped every juvenile and adult without prejudice to age or record and just threw them in there. Practically all of them didnt do shit. Now I support even if they did because its their fuckin homeland, and the US are the invaders. In any case that is mutilation and unnecessary, and unwarranted humiliation. All the public in the us knows about is the pyramid. What they dont say is that there were bodies found under the prison floors that were packed in ice. Really what it sounds like you're saying is that you "want to beat the crap out of" Arabs, in which case you better fuckin pray we never meet face to face. I personally agree with some others who posted they should've handed him over to the Iraqis, but they should've handed him to me, thats all i'm gonna say, the details I would include about proper punishment toward him and Lynndie England would make you vomit on your keyboard.

THATS REAL, MUTHFUCKA

Heheh. He should be sent to Guantanamo.

Anyway, his life is nearly over whereever he goes. Don't think when he comes out he'll be able to get a decent life and a decent job. Unless he gets hired by some neocon company.

I'm glad they're doing something about it, but I hope they don't give the lower ranks a few dozen years in prison to cover up the higher ranks that are involved. Did you see the interview with the guy's parents were they ask all mothers to prevent their children from joining the army because it's just not worth it?

Yesterday a soldier [was] sentanced to 10 years behind bars for the Abu Ghraib prisoner torture scandal ...
Good. He brings dishonor on all US military personnel and deserves to be incarcerated. :headbang:

I'm glad they're doing something about it, but I hope they don't give the lower ranks a few dozen years in prison to cover up the higher ranks that are involved. Did you see the interview with the guy's parents were they ask all mothers to prevent their children from joining the army because it's just not worth it?

Follow an order and you can go to prison or die.
Disobey an order and you can go to prison or be shot.

Joining the military isn't like applying for a job at McDonalds, for one thing you just can't up and quit. You're under a whole other set of laws than your average citizen called "The Uniform Code of Military Justice".

When you're in the military you have actually less rights than a committed mental patient, with the exception that in the military they pay you, and there are some educational bennies. Still you can't go anywhere unless they give you permission, they won't release you until they want to, and they can call you back at anytime for years. They can also use you with out your permission for weapons testing and medical experiments.

Oh yes, if you screw up and get a less than Honorable Discharge it will mark you for life. If you go in, go in with your eyes open and in the words of my CC from boot. " Don't Volunteer For Anything".

Follow an order and you can go to prison or die.
Disobey an order and you can go to prison or be shot.

Joining the military isn't like applying for a job at McDonalds, for one thing you just can't up and quit. You're under a whole other set of laws than your average citizen called "The Uniform Code of Military Justice".

When you're in the military you have actually less rights than a committed mental patient, with the exception that in the military they pay you, and there are some educational bennies. Still you can't go anywhere unless they give you permission, they won't release you until they want to, and they can call you back at anytime for years. They can also use you with out your permission for weapons testing and medical experiments.

Oh yes, if you screw up and get a less than Honorable Discharge it will mark you for life. If you go in, go in with your eyes open and in the words of my CC from boot. " Don't Volunteer For Anything".
Being a competent, dedicated, responsible soldier is a difficult and high calling. Most of what you say here is very true. I could take issue with the "weapons testing and medical experiments" thing though.

As far as not volunteering for anything, most of the best training opportunities, the ones which make you stretch and grow and which make you eligible for more rapid promotion, require that you volunteer. In addition, you cannot become an officer without volunteering to be trained as one.

:gundge: I do believe there WERE orders given, probably by CIA operatives that will remain nameless (due to National Security, of course), but his self-satisfied attitude and complete lack of conscience frightens me MORE than what he did. If THIS is the kind of soldier we're training to "democratize" the world, God help us. Frankly, we'd better root these monsters out, beginning with the officers at the TOP, before our military begins to LOOK like nazies. I remember Mei Lai, back in the Vietnam War, and you just KNOW that high-ranking officers had to have at least looked AWAY while this was going on. Unfortunately, the Geneva Accords are restricted to uniformed troops only, but that doesn't mean we have the right to do THIS, for God's sake! And God only knows WHAT our troops might be doing to the detainees at Gitmo as well. Torture? Not in MY name! And what, exactly, was the status of the Viet Cong, I wonder? I don't remember any of THEM being tortured, even though they wore black pajamas---or am I deluding myself? Probably.

Why should you have to feel sorry and have regrets for your actions if you believed you were in the right, even if you were found guilty. Sounds kind of like being a mamby pamby sissy girlie-man!He may be stupid enough to believe he was in the right when he was playing his little hom-erotic games, but you'd think he regretted being stupid enough to take photos and get caught, surely? How about regretting that 10 years of his life are gone? Or regretting that the world's image of him is one of a red-necked, racist scumbag who is too stupid to know when he is screwed (metaphorically and probably physically) for life? Or regretting that he (as somebody else mentioned) has undermined the efforts of the country he's supposed to be upholding by acting as a prime recruiting aid for people who would otherwise have been neutral?

Even this psychotic bitch regrets being caught..... http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,11953407%255E421,00.html

Just a thought. Or two ;)

Being a competent, dedicated, responsible soldier is a difficult and high calling. Most of what you say here is very true. I could take issue with the "weapons testing and medical experiments" thing though.

As far as not volunteering for anything, most of the best training opportunities, the ones which make you stretch and grow and which make you eligible for more rapid promotion, require that you volunteer. In addition, you cannot become an officer without volunteering to be trained as one.


Did you forget about the nuclear Trinity Tests, and the LSD drug trials? There were also bio warfare trials in the Navy on staffed ships. It's not like they're going to line you up to see how far the new ammunition will penetrate, but if they have a totally new technology to test your might end up a lab rat. A lot of armed forces personnel have, and many never volunteered for that kind of duty.


On the volunteering thing, it depends on if your in for the long or short haul. If your going to make the military your career you will have to go for constant vocational upgrade if you don't want to be cut before retirement.

He may be stupid enough to believe he was in the right when he was playing his little hom-erotic games, but you'd think he regretted being stupid enough to take photos and get caught, surely? How about regretting that 10 years of his life are gone? Or regretting that the world's image of him is one of a red-necked, racist scumbag who is too stupid to know when he is screwed (metaphorically and probably physically) for life? Or regretting that he (as somebody else mentioned) has undermined the efforts of the country he's supposed to be upholding by acting as a prime recruiting aid for people who would otherwise have been neutral?

Even this psychotic bitch regrets being caught..... http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,11953407%255E421,00.html

Just a thought. Or two ;)


Well isn't that what the guy is really getting sent to prison for? For being stupid enough to take photos and to allow those photos to land in the hands of the press? The other solders will be sent to prison for being stupid enough to allow their photo to be taken by a dumb ass.

That's exactly my point. He doesn't even regret being stupid enough to get himself into the situation in the first place.

He wasn't the only one, certainly. Even people who ostensibly knew better joined in the fun. This one's now backpedalling frantically and claiming he was compelled to participate, even though he knew it was wrong. http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,11954508%255E2,00.html

Who is worse - the one who thought it was perfectly fine to treat people like this or the one who knew it was wrong (read: against the rules) and did it anyway?

You really are fuckin stupid. First of all they werent terrorists. If you watch any news channel in the WORLD except the United States of Opression, you would know that teams of soldiers went into neighborhoods suspected of "terror activities" and kidnapped every juvenile and adult without prejudice to age or record and just threw them in there. Practically all of them didnt do shit. Now I support even if they did because its their fuckin homeland, and the US are the invaders. In any case that is mutilation and unnecessary, and unwarranted humiliation. All the public in the us knows about is the pyramid. What they dont say is that there were bodies found under the prison floors that were packed in ice. Really what it sounds like you're saying is that you "want to beat the crap out of" Arabs, in which case you better fuckin pray we never meet face to face. I personally agree with some others who posted they should've handed him over to the Iraqis, but they should've handed him to me, thats all i'm gonna say, the details I would include about proper punishment toward him and Lynndie England would make you vomit on your keyboard.

THATS REAL, MUTHFUCKA

Another real big man over the internet. Are you the toughest Arab on the net these days? I've beaten the crap out of Arabs amoung others. They were kind of easy, and didn't really endanger my welfare at all. Esp that one guy who was running the 7-11, after 9-11. ;)

Well, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that people in the Bush administration gave orders for the soldiers to abuse detainees, but there is evidence of blatant disregard for the safety of others (not enough training for soldiers, not enough supervision, etc, etc - blatant disregard for safety can be a prosecutable criminal offense) and flaunting of UN rules against torture.

"Gonzales’ adversaries, including the New York Times editorial page, Human Rights First, (formerly the Lawyers Committee for Human Rights) and some retired military officers such as Marine Gen. Joseph Hoar, contend that he wrote one memo and approved another, written by former Justice Department official Jay Bybee, which either authorized or at least set the stage for torture of al-Qaida and Taliban detainees." (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6790622/)
That was for the bastards in Cuba dumbass, he had nothing to do with Iraq.

Federal prison eh.....well im sure any federal prision probably has a rat pack of vets, probably consider him a folk hero in a twisted way. He'll do fine is he finds himself in that situation.

Well, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that people in the Bush administration gave orders for the soldiers to abuse detainees, but there is evidence of blatant disregard for the safety of others (not enough training for soldiers, not enough supervision, etc, etc - blatant disregard for safety can be a prosecutable criminal offense) and flaunting of UN rules against torture.

"Gonzales’ adversaries, including the New York Times editorial page, Human Rights First, (formerly the Lawyers Committee for Human Rights) and some retired military officers such as Marine Gen. Joseph Hoar, contend that he wrote one memo and approved another, written by former Justice Department official Jay Bybee, which either authorized or at least set the stage for torture of al-Qaida and Taliban detainees." (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6790622/)


Perhaps you should read more on why men do what they do in combat or prison situations.

There are regulations (even aside from the Geneva Conventions) in most armies, including the US Army, against torture, against shooting prisoners, etc. Yet why does it happen in every war, and in every army, without exception, that prisoners are shot and abused? The answer lies in the same reason that soldiers stand and fight, or alternatively, in why soldiers turn and run.

John Keegan, in his book, The Face of War, outlines why this happens. He first documents that prisoners are murdered by all sides in every war. Then he asks why. The answer is found in ground-breaking research conducted by Americans (yes, the Americans wanted to know why it happened to see if there was a way to stop it). During WW II, there was extensive research by the US - who found that small group dynamics - the dynamics of groups of 6 to 8 people - ruled all actions of the individuals in the group - regardless of orders.

So, you could give an order to charge an enemy position. You could make the penalty for disobedience death by firing squad. You could even have someone there making a personal threat to carry out the punishment. But the determining factor of whether or not the men actually charged boiled down to the dynamics within their personal group.

The same thing was found for mistreatment or murder of prisoners. Even though men knew that it was a capital offense to murder prisoners, it happened anyway, even when an officer who might report (and did report) the offense was present. British troops during WW II, for instance, on many occasions, would accept the surrender of Germans they met at the beginning of an engagement - but within 20 to 30 minutes, would answer German requests to surrender with the traditional line, "Too late, chum" and either bayonet or shoot the surrendering prisoners. This happened on a wide scale, regardless of official policy, regulation, and attempts to stop it.

If you are wanting to say that the abuse at the Iraqi prison is the result of orders from on high, then you'll have to prove it. It would be as difficult to prove that President Clinton ordered FBI agent Horiuchi to shoot Mrs. Weaver (an unarmed woman holding a baby) through the head. Agent Horiuchi did what he did on purpose, but it is far more likely that the gruop dynamics in force at the time had more to do with why he shot her than any orders or regulations in place.

These things cannot be fully addressed or stopped by regulations (regulations which, BTW, already exist). They cannot be stopped by oversight (because the overseers become part of the group). They are going to happen in war.