NationStates Jolt Archive

Recent topic at a debate tournament at whether or not the United States should stop sending aid to Israel. What is your oppinion on this issue???

Stop? You mean just cut it off entirely? No. America could try scaling back the support, and seeing what happens though.

Maybe?? Maybe not??

(But specifically towards Isreal: I guess. I'm not sure. Do they need aide?)

The U.S. should cut aid on every nation we give aid to, just for a week, and see how pissed off people would get. :D

Darn. Colodia beat me to it.

I say we stealth nuke the whole world :D

I say we stealth nuke the whole world :D

I say we melt the Polar Ice Caps. Just one day of school, and being around those ignorant people makes you want to just end humanity as we know it.

Since money is the guiding force of the world and not the guiding force of Allah, no, the US may continue to give money to whom it wishes.

In the end, the money will not matter.

Well that's a tough one. Ending aid to Israel would sway Arab public opinion in our favor especially if we could get the French to sell the "Well what do you expect, their just big stupid cowboys?" line about Iraq. It will not sway Al Qaeda. For that we have to withdraw all American personnel out of Saudi Arabia who are not Muslims and cut a withdrawal deal out of Iraq.

Putting all the religion and democracy crap aside, what is Israel to the US and the EU. Well it's the land bridge from Asia to Africa, it's also the 100% sure land base, deepwater port, and collection of air strips if everything goes completely to hell in the Middle East.

With Israel in place, America and the EU can easily manage everything from a Chinese invasion of the Middle East to the aggression of some future Islamic or African Super State. That's the way the tacticians see it. Continued support for Israel depends on how much you think that tactical advantage is needed today and in the future.

By the way I'm currently 50/50 on continued support. Considering that Arab Israelis will have control in two or three generations, it's just good money after bad. However there is a massive tactical advantage in keeping that land from the control of another potential Super Power. The smart thing would be to increase direct support to the Arab Israeli community while continuing to fund Israel.

Cut all aid to Taiwan.

I say we NUKE Israel!

Cut all aid to Taiwan.The consequences of that would be hilarious.

Cut all aid to Taiwan.

Why?

I say we NUKE Israel!
Even as a joke that's not funny. I have many relatives there.

Why?
For random stupidity I suppose.

Maybe. I mean, where the hell did Tiawan come from? This is supposed to be a thread about the US/Israel relationship. Anyway, US aid to Israel should not be cut. I'd explain why, but it is 4 AM here and I am very sleepy.

Maybe. I mean, where the hell did Tiawan come from? This is supposed to be a thread about the US/Israel relationship. Anyway, US aid to Israel should not be cut. I'd explain why, but it is 4 AM here and I am very sleepy.
Yay, somebody else on the east coast who can't sleep!

The simple solution (alright, its not that simple, its just a methodology) is the "cost/benefit analysis".

What does aid to Israel cost? And this is not just in dollar terms, but would include such things as "opportunity cost" (what if the money had been spent on something else, or taxes reduced by that amount), and compare with the benefits (having an ally in the mid-east) as well as the other "intangibles" (how much support does the government get from its own citizens, how important is it appear to be "dependable" and "generous" to allies).

Compare the costs and the benefits.

Confused?

I must admit, after writing that, so am I.

The USA clearly has very strong ties with Israel. And that's fine by me. However, I think USA should use this position to its full potential. USA could use this position as a serious lever in the peace process. They could effectively financial force (or at least make it very attractive for) Israel to stop its targeted assasinations and illegal occupation of Palestinian territory with the threat of withdrawing, or considerably cutting back, their aid if Israel does not. This should be done in a planned way; i.e. it would need to be met with an equal peace effort on the Palestian side.

Erm, do they need aid? I thought they were supposed to be well off (ish). Well, seeing as its generally a good place for US troops waiting to pounce on the rest of the middle east (I don't mean that offensively, most countries there are tearing themselves apart, occupied or not. If anything, occupation of most of the middle east would mean secure places to bring in aid, as well as "Sharing" the oil from those lucky countries with it, instead of paying, meaning more aid for some countries there) I would keep aid going.

Well that's a tough one. Ending aid to Israel would sway Arab public opinion in our favor especially if we could get the French to sell the "Well what do you expect, their just big stupid cowboys?" line about Iraq. It will not sway Al Qaeda. For that we have to withdraw all American personnel out of Saudi Arabia who are not Muslims and cut a withdrawal deal out of Iraq.
-snip-


OR America and Israel could work on getting liked more, rather than constantly arming up.

OR America and Israel could work on getting liked more, rather than constantly arming up.Yeah, but you have to understand that a significant number of people dislike Israel simply because it exists. There are always going to be people who will hate Israel, and there's really nothing that can be done about it. As for America, I think to get more people to like us would require steps that would be detrimental to the economic, political, and military health of the USA. For better or for worse, we're not about to compromise ourselves to make us look better.

Israel gets billions of dollars a year from america and zionist jews control too many high ranking positions in america for that to stop !
I say let the arabs nuke the scum. :upyours:

I am in favor of ending aid to Israel. For that matter I am in favor of ending aid for all countries until problems here are addressed and rectified. There may be special cases of charity that need to be addressed but Israel is not one of them.

Israel gets billions of dollars a year from america and zionist jews control too many high ranking positions in america for that to stop !
I say let the arabs nuke the scum. :upyours:You're trying way too hard. You've gotta be more subtle.

I'm not up on US-Israel stuff. Exactly why do we continue to give them aid anyway? What is it specifically used or needed for?

I'm not up on US-Israel stuff. Exactly why do we continue to give them aid anyway? What is it specifically used or needed for?For the military, primarily. We give it to them because A) they already have a strong military and having them on our side would be a benefit, and B) it gives us a base of operations if we ever need to launch an attack in the Middle East. I'm pretty sure that's the US's reasoning.

I think it would be far more beneficial to Israel if the United States began to slowly cut off aid to Israel and to allow it to establish an independence from the United States. Israel's a big boy now.

And for the benefit of those mistaking their facts, 1.3 billion/year does not quite qualify as billions in the plural, I don't think.

Furthermore, institute a plan. Take, say, a number - a hundred thousand dollars. For every Palestinian confirmed killed by an Israeli, the aid to Israel will be cut by a hundred thousand dollars. For every Israeli confirmed killed by a Palestinian the aid to Israel will be raised by a hundred thousand dollars.

Pretty much what I had assumed, can't be that simple though... or can it?

I'm not up on US-Israel stuff. Exactly why do we continue to give them aid anyway? What is it specifically used or needed for?

No one knows why we do, only that they're the number 1 recipient of foreign aid. Now foreign aid is dispensed for a number of reasons; humanitarian (haiti) and the like, which the US demands that they spend on specific stuff. But Israel is the only country where we give them money UNCONDITIONALLY. We have a whole industry trying to figure out why from a spartan military state to we feel bad about waiting 2 years to pitch into to stop Hitler.

The thing is, every time there has been a peace deal (oslo and camp david) we give them more money which leads to a lot of people saying it's a all a facade. Like a peace deal with the Egyptians? The only country that could militarily give them a run for their money... It sounds like Israel is just part of an American imperial agenda.

The biggest thing about Al-Aqaeda is ideology, we can shoot all the terrorists we like but if we keep giving them reasons then they'll just recruit more. So I say keep shooting but keep pushing the peace process, then they'll effectively be recognized as a nut group and American can finally be the "good guys".

Furthermore, institute a plan. Take, say, a number - a hundred thousand dollars. For every Palestinian confirmed killed by an Israeli, the aid to Israel will be cut by a hundred thousand dollars. For every Israeli confirmed killed by a Palestinian the aid to Israel will be raised by a hundred thousand dollars.

Ooooh. I like that one. Great idea! :)

[QUOTE=Ninurta] Israel's a big boy now.
QUOTE]

Not even! the amount they spend on the military is astonishing and can't be supported without American aid. Israel has a nuclear weapons program and the most high tech not to mention highly trained military force in the Middle East. More so than even most NATO countries.

did we not cut off founds to cuba by means of an embrago b/c god knows why. why don't we just do that to every other country we don't like. travel restrictions, no trades, no help, hey maybe then they'll see how much they need us . :rolleyes: I'm just being sarcastic.... the cuba thing just really pisses me off. I'm just saying why cut off founds to one country b/c one bs reson and then give help to another country thats just as bad. I dunno i just think somethings are really unfair :(

I say we NUKE Israel!

No.

The United States must never abandon our commitment to the lone democracy, the lone free state in the Middle East. To do that would be the abandonment of everything the United States of America stands for: freedom, equality, and dead terrorists.

End it and stop defending them when the UN wants to pass a resolution against them.

The US should give Israel it's entire annual budget for the next 20 years.

End it and stop defending them when the UN wants to pass a resolution against them.The UN is obscenely anti-Israel. That is one instance in which I am very glad the USA acts unilaterally.

End it and stop defending them when the UN wants to pass a resolution against them.

The UN General Assembly has passed (i think) 451 resolutions against Israel, and the Security Council has passed 88.

Do you know how many they've passed against the "Palestinians?" I'll give you a hint: It's less than one.

The UN General Assembly has passed (i think) 451 resolutions against Israel, and the Security Council has passed 88.

Do you know how many they've passed against the "Palestinians?" I'll give you a hint: It's less than one.Would the UN even have jurisdiction over the Palenstinians? I mean, they're not even really a country (yet).

Yes.

No.

The United States must never abandon our commitment to the lone democracy, the lone free state in the Middle East. To do that would be the abandonment of everything the United States of America stands for: freedom, equality, and dead terrorists.

This would be a valid point if Israel would actually HELP the spread of democracy in the Middle East. Sadly, the muslims hate Israel and the US so much for supporting Israel that the are more likely to turn away from democracy (by giving the religious zealots something to preach to the ignorant masses and convince then it is the wrong way to go, creating more theocratic states).

EDIT

And you do realize that this situation the US has gotten itself into is what CREATED these terrorists in the first place. Right?

Would the UN even have jurisdiction over the Palenstinians? I mean, they're not even really a country (yet).

True, but you can look at the amount of resolutions passed against other Middle Eastern countries as an indicator. Off the top of my head, I can think of 12 (all dealing with Iraq, none of which were enforced).

This would be a valid point if Israel would actually HELP the spread of democracy in the Middle East.

It's hard to spread democracy when you're focusing on avoiding terrorists blowing themselves up in cafes and daycare centers.

No.

The United States must never abandon our commitment to the lone democracy, the lone free state in the Middle East. To do that would be the abandonment of everything the United States of America stands for: freedom, equality, and dead terrorists.


Israel is no more a democracy or a free state than was South Africa under the apartheid regime.

It's hard to spread democracy when you're focusing on avoiding terrorists blowing themselves up in cafes and daycare centers.

Or when you are too busy using your military to terrorize civilians and enforce ghettos.

Or when you are too busy using your military to terrorize civilians and enforce ghettos.Which they wouldn't have to do if people didn't keep blowing themselves up.

Around and around we go!

Which they wouldn't have to do if people didn't keep blowing themselves up.

Around and around we go!


Yup, and if the israelis arent decent enough to take the intiative and stop their violence, they have no moral high ground and do not deserve foreign aid.

Yup, and if the israelis arent decent enough to take the intiative and stop their violence, they have no moral high ground and do not deserve foreign aid.I agree completely that Israel has to be the "bigger man" here, since it's becoming more and more obvious that the Palestinian leadership is either unwilling or unable to do so.

But we don't give the money because we think they're doing the right thing. We give them money so we can keep our grubby little fingers in the Middle East.

It's hard to spread democracy when you're focusing on avoiding terrorists blowing themselves up in cafes and daycare centers.

And why do they do that I wonder...

EDIT

Maybe I should ask a question myself:

How do people rationalize that having Israel around will actually spread democracy when it is so wildly despised in the Middle East?

did we not cut off founds to cuba by means of an embrago b/c god knows why. why don't we just do that to every other country we don't like. travel restrictions, no trades, no help, hey maybe then they'll see how much they need us . :rolleyes: I'm just being sarcastic.... the cuba thing just really pisses me off. I'm just saying why cut off founds to one country b/c one bs reson and then give help to another country thats just as bad. I dunno i just think somethings are really unfair :(
Cuba is a tyrannical Communist dictorship that almost caused a global thermonuclear war. Israel is a pluralistic, liberal democracy, the ONLY democracy in the middle of a cesspool of Arab tyranny and dictatorship. The only thing that's "unfair" is that people like you are permitted to participate in the democratic process.

No one knows why we do, only that they're the number 1 recipient of foreign aid. Now foreign aid is dispensed for a number of reasons; humanitarian (haiti) and the like, which the US demands that they spend on specific stuff. But Israel is the only country where we give them money UNCONDITIONALLY.
That's not even remotely true.




Furthermore, institute a plan. Take, say, a number - a hundred thousand dollars. For every Palestinian confirmed killed by an Israeli, the aid to Israel will be cut by a hundred thousand dollars. For every Israeli confirmed killed by a Palestinian the aid to Israel will be raised by a hundred thousand dollars.
Why should Israel be punished for defending her citizens and killing terrorists?


Cut all aid to Taiwan.
Why would the United States do a stupid-ass thing like that?

Yup, and if the israelis arent decent enough to take the intiative and stop their violence, they have no moral high ground and do not deserve foreign aid.

Everything the Israelis have done has been an act of self-defense. After the Yom Kippur War, Israel gave the Sinai back to Egypt. This meant a loss of oil revenue and advanced military bases to Egypt. Yet you still say that Israel doesn't hold the moral high ground? When every action they have taken has been to defend the lives of as many innocents as possible? Yes, they may kill an innocent Palestinian every once and awhile, but the key word is "accident!" Palestinian terrorists murder women and children almost everyday in their sick quest to push the Israelis into the sea.

As for Israel being an apartheid state, you are a fool. South Africa was an oppresive, racist regime that kept black down. In Israel, Arabs and other groups are given the same rights, privileges, and responsibilities as the Jews. Some could argue that they have it better than the Jews, because Arab Israelis aren't required to serve in the military.

Hmmm, if that happened it's possible that certain arab nations that shall remain nameless would think of it as America turning their backs on Israel and might try to attack them. In which case Israel would rip them apart and the entire middle east might very well go up in flames.

Would the UN even have jurisdiction over the Palenstinians? I mean, they're not even really a country (yet).
They have a diplomat at the UN so they could, but the ****ing frogs wouldn't allow it

The USA clearly has very strong ties with Israel. And that's fine by me. However, I think USA should use this position to its full potential. USA could use this position as a serious lever in the peace process. They could effectively financial force (or at least make it very attractive for) Israel to stop its targeted assasinations and illegal occupation of Palestinian territory with the threat of withdrawing, or considerably cutting back, their aid if Israel does not. This should be done in a planned way; i.e. it would need to be met with an equal peace effort on the Palestian side.

Hate to tell you this but they do do this and neither side wants to cooperate. Every 'summit' they had going at Camp David starts out like this, and it eventually crumbles.

Why would the United States do a stupid-ass thing like that?What does the United States have to gain from an independant Taiwan?

What does the United States have to gain from an independant Taiwan?
An armed conflict with China. Think of the money the arms industry could make of it.

What does the United States have to gain from an independant Taiwan?
Because China doesn't need another country, and Taiwan likes capitalism perfectly fine.

Because China doesn't need another country, and Taiwan likes capitalism perfectly fine.The PRC is essentially capitalist now. Besides, I thought Capitalism vs. Communism was all but dead. I do agree with your first point though.

What does the United States have to gain from an independant Taiwan?
Free, liberal democracy is in the best interests of the United States. Anything that weakens the People's Republic of China, that serves to counter its unfortunate and disproportionate power is beneficial to the United States in particular, and the Free World in general.

Indeed, the United States has much to gain from an independant Republic of China, and much to lose from one re-assimilated by the PRC.

Free, liberal democracy is in the best interests of the United States. Anything that weakens the People's Republic of China, that serves to counter its unfortunate and disproportionate power is beneficial to the United States in particular, and the Free World in general.

Indeed, the United States has much to gain from an independant Republic of China, and much to lose from one re-assimilated by the PRC.The RoC is hardly a liberal democracy and the power of the PRC is hardly disproportionate. Whether it's unfortunate or not is obviously in the eye of the beholder.

Why should Israel be punished for defending her citizens and killing terrorists?
For the same reason Palestine should be punished for defending their state from invading Israeli soldiers. Because it's completely impossible to tell which cause its right, nor is it possible to tell whether or not someone is a terrorist or a civilian - or different based on who you give the same nameless description to.

Similarly, you'll note the plan wouldn't harm Israel at all if they killed fewer people than were killed by Palestinian attacks. I think you'll agree that Palestinian attackers number fewer than their targets, so if the numbers of casualties are in the same direction then this number should actually aid Israel, rather than harm it.

If my idea were to happen to come into effect, it shouldn't really be taken as a punishment at all. It should be viewed as an attempt by the United States to reassess exactly where their aid should be directed. Aid to Israel, I'm sure you agree, shouldn't be based on the political merits of trying to gain the "Jewish vote". Rather, it should be based on a judgement both quantitative and qualitative of which side is, in effect, murdering more members of the other side.

Furthermore, shrinking aid to Israel also aids Israel by allowing them to reduce their total dependence on the United States.


I'll note someone else just mentioned the Sinai. The next time someone says land for peace doesn't work, could someone else here just get out a globe and point right at it? Egypt has been a consistent moderating voice in Middle East peace, often coming out dangerously far toward Israel's position(for a gov't that could be toppled at any moment by radicals) after the Sinai was granted back to them.
The leader of Hamas, incidentally, said that all attacks by Hamas would cease if the boundaries went back to those held between 1948 and 1969.


Someone else tried to use Israel's massive military budget as justification for US aid, I think. I'd like to say that's not by any means a justification. So I will. That's not by any means a justification. Israel ranks up with Pakistan, North Korea, China, and India as the countries that are proven to possess and be actively developing more nuclear weapons. Israel already has an air force more than capable of wiping out a nation several times its size - and no, that's not a good thing either. Perhaps Israel should be spending some of its military funding on punishments for trigger-happy soldiers. But as long as they don't, I can't see any motivation for Abbas to do the same, especially considering that his position is far weaker.

Yup, and if the israelis arent decent enough to take the intiative and stop their violence, they have no moral high ground and do not deserve foreign aid.
If Israel laid down their arms, there would be no Israel. If Palestinians laid down their arms, there would be peace.

For the same reason Palestine should be punished for defending their state from invading Israeli soldiers. Because it's completely impossible to tell which cause its right, nor is it possible to tell whether or not someone is a terrorist or a civilian - or different based on who you give the same nameless description to.

There is no Palestinian state. Palestine was first an Ottoman province, then a British mandate. In 1917, the British issued the Balfour Declaration, declaring Palestine (Modern Israel and Jordan) to be the "Jewish National Home." However, in 1946, the British broke their promise, and gave 70% of Palestine to an Arab king named Faisal, who created the Kingdom of Transjordan. In 1947, the UN offered a partition plan of the remaining Palestine into Arab and Jewish sectors, which the Jews accepted and the Arabs flaty declined. So, in 1949, Palestine was granted independence as the State of Israel, and was promptly invaded by the armies of Syria, Saudi Arabia, Transjordan, Iraq, and Egypt. Since that day, Israel has been in a constant battle for survival.

And as for the land for peace idea not working, allow me to remind you of the Suedentland in 1938. Britain and France traded Czechoslovakia to Hitler in exchange for "peace." A year later, Hitler started the bloodiest war in history.

The RoC is hardly a liberal democracy and the power of the PRC is hardly disproportionate. Whether it's unfortunate or not is obviously in the eye of the beholder.
Where have you been for the last 15 years, a commune? Marxist Land? Lenin World? Stalin Camp?

Cuba is a tyrannical Communist dictorship that almost caused a global thermonuclear war. Israel is a pluralistic, liberal democracy, the ONLY democracy in the middle of a cesspool of Arab tyranny and dictatorship. The only thing that's "unfair" is that people like you are permitted to participate in the democratic process.





so what if there a communist dictorship there not the only on once in the world, but there the only one with an embrago on them, and the thermonuclear war forget that! what about north korea? and last i've heard Isreal isn't that liberal.

Where have you been for the last 15 years, a commune? Marxist Land? Lenin World? Stalin Camp?What? The RoC was no better than the PRC in terms of political freedoms until the very recent election of Chen Shui-bian, and even then the KMT tried to assassinate him. The "country" is run by people who are descended from mainland Chinese; the Taiwanese don't even control their own island. So, no, the RoC is not a liberal democracy. Sorry.

And I misinterpreted your other statement. I assumed when you said "disproportianate power" you meant global/economic power, not political power within the nation. My bad.

If Israel laid down their arms, there would be no Israel. If Palestinians laid down their arms, there would be peace.
Well there would be peace in any war if one side stops fighting and gives up into all the other side's demands. That is nothing new. If the Palestinians stopped fighting I don't see what incentive Israel would have to remove its settlements. Unless the settlements are removed, or the settlements are are absorbed by a Palestinian state, the Palestinians would be still denied a state of their own, a minimal demand of the Palestinian people.

Additionally people who think that if the Palestinians simply stopped fighting obviously have little understanding of the history or the situtation. The territories were occupied in 67' and there was little terrorism from the Palestinianns living in the occupied territories really until the late 80s. Even the first intifada started off relatively peacefully, but was met with violent Israeli response.

Anyway sanctions should not be imposed on Israel as long as they are dismantaling settlements, but they should be imposed otherwise.

Terrorism by Arabs/Palestinians against Jews/Israelis has been going on for many many years.
To say that there was hardly any before '67 is not correct. Although I see Soviet Narco State is hardly pro Israel ;-) Anyway... you must take in the full picture of the ME before making calls like this.
This is one link for some more info...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_terrorism

By giving Israel military $$ aid, this serves quite a few purposes, of which I can think of a few, although I am sure there is many more.
1. This aid give the US leverage over the weapons tech, that Israel develops. I am sure you read that both US and Isael do alot of tech development together. (UAV's, laser ...)
2. The US has a yay/nay say to which countries Israel sells military tech/weapons... re China and Phalcons.
3. Joint training. Guerilla (ME style) and fighting in ME cities/towns.
4. Intelligence for the ME.

I could go on and on.... taking that and the fact that US jews exist. Yes Jews do live in the US, and they support Israel... surprised? No.. Israel has an almost sybiotic relationship with the US, hell you could say Israel is another state of the US. The amount of Israelis that have relations in the US is huge.

Anyway... the reasons are many.... I know people don't like a winner....but realize that Hamas and the ilk want to create a "hub" for the Islamic world on this turf, and ... well we are not going to give in so easy, and we will not lay down arms just to appease ... the UN .. laugh...

Everything the Israelis have done has been an act of self-defense. After the Yom Kippur War, Israel gave the Sinai back to Egypt. This meant a loss of oil revenue and advanced military bases to Egypt. Yet you still say that Israel doesn't hold the moral high ground? When every action they have taken has been to defend the lives of as many innocents as possible? Yes, they may kill an innocent Palestinian every once and awhile, but the key word is "accident!" Palestinian terrorists murder women and children almost everyday in their sick quest to push the Israelis into the sea.

As for Israel being an apartheid state, you are a fool. South Africa was an oppresive, racist regime that kept black down. In Israel, Arabs and other groups are given the same rights, privileges, and responsibilities as the Jews. Some could argue that they have it better than the Jews, because Arab Israelis aren't required to serve in the military.


A good life in Jenin, no?

Wow, I wish I COULD BE SO LUCKY AS TO LIVE ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE ISRAELI WALL!

BY GEORGE, IMMA GIT MY TRUCK N MOVE DOWN TO PALESTINE.

LIKE THE FRANCH RIVIARA BUT CHEEPER!

A good life in Jenin, no?

Wow, I wish I COULD BE SO LUCKY AS TO LIVE ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE ISRAELI WALL!

BY GEORGE, IMMA GIT MY TRUCK N MOVE DOWN TO PALESTINE.

LIKE THE FRANCH RIVIARA BUT CHEEPER!I'm pretty sure he meant Arabs who were Israeli citizens, ie not Palestinians.

Hello Mr. Israeli government! You know all that money we've been spending on you? Yeah, well, you have two weeks to stop being fuckers, or we'll start spending it on the Pals.

Israel needs support, but they also need to stop being fuckers. The solution I've come to is an ultimatum.

Terrorism by Arabs/Palestinians against Jews/Israelis has been going on for many many years.
To say that there was hardly any before '67 is not correct. Although I see Soviet Narco State is hardly pro Israel ;-) Anyway... you must take in the full picture of the ME before making calls like this.
This is one link for some more info...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_terrorism

By giving Israel military $$ aid, this serves quite a few purposes, of which I can think of a few, although I am sure there is many more.
1. This aid give the US leverage over the weapons tech, that Israel develops. I am sure you read that both US and Isael do alot of tech development together. (UAV's, laser ...)
2. The US has a yay/nay say to which countries Israel sells military tech/weapons... re China and Phalcons.
3. Joint training. Guerilla (ME style) and fighting in ME cities/towns.
4. Intelligence for the ME.

I could go on and on.... taking that and the fact that US jews exist. Yes Jews do live in the US, and they support Israel... surprised? No.. Israel has an almost sybiotic relationship with the US, hell you could say Israel is another state of the US. The amount of Israelis that have relations in the US is huge.

Anyway... the reasons are many.... I know people don't like a winner....but realize that Hamas and the ilk want to create a "hub" for the Islamic world on this turf, and ... well we are not going to give in so easy, and we will not lay down arms just to appease ... the UN .. laugh...

Oh gee Soviet Narco State is hardly pro Israel wow I love how Pro Israel people always start off with a cheap shot, at least you didn't call me an antisemite like most cowards do, or even better a "self hating jew", whatever that is, considering for all you know I could be Jewish.

Anyway to elaborate on my earlier comments, I never claimed there was no Palestinian terrorism before the first intifada, just that there terrorism from the occupied territories themselves was not widespread since being occupied in 1967. The first sucide bombing didn't occur until 1994, and there was no real uprising from the territories until like I said the first intifada which was mostly at first just stone throwers and the like. The PLO was a Jordan based organisation at its inception, then it moved to Lebanon, then Tunisia.

Hamas, the most dangerous terrorist group in the occupied territories today was actually nothing more than a charity in the 70s and was believe it or not heavily supported by Israel in through the 80s becasue the Israelis hoped that by supporting an Islamic movement they would weaken the influence of the secular nationalist PLO which was really the only game in town.

This whole wretched conflict could have been over by now if after the signing of the Oslo accords Israel had dismantled its settlements, instead of exploiting the peace process by building many, many more settlements, and established a palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza. Sure there would be the occasional terrorist act, but Palestinians would be much more willing to fight terror to preserve their own state, rather than simply doing the dirty work of the Zionists like the PA is expected to do now.

As for your comments about American Jews you are just contributing to the misconsception that all american Jews are simply for Israel Uber Alles in the Middle East, there are plenty of Jews in peace groups like B'Tselem, Tikkun, Jews Against the Occupation and various others. It is just the goons like AIPAC that shout louder so everybody assumes they speak for the entire Jewish Community which they most certainly do not.

The US has a yay/nay say to which countries Israel sells military tech/weapons... re China and Phalcons.

Who sold Communist China the Advanced Warning and Control (AWACS) System the Patriot Missile Defense System, the Tomahawk Missile, the Sidewinder Missile, the Battlefield Laser Gun, the F16 Fighter, and dozens of other high-tech military weapon systems? The Arabs? No, it was Israel.

That's not all. For the first time, Chinese nuclear missiles are capable of reaching our continent. The Israelis sold them the required ICBM targeting Technology

Congressman Paul Findley published a book in the 1970s called "They Dare to Speak Out" about individuals who challenge the straglehold of Israeli lobby in US affairs. (It has recently been updated) At the time, there were few but persistent and vocal Jewish voices against the Israeli brutalities and most of those he listed were non-Jews. Today, there is a proliferation of groups and sites that represent growing Jewish voices against Israeli policies. Those thousands of individuals are frequently labeled by Zionists as "self-hating Jews." The myth that Zionism=Judaism has fallen just like all the other myths used by self-righteous Israel to justify its persecution and ethnic cleansing of the native Palestians.

Bill, in your eyes we are ... "fuckers" ... you forget, or perhaps chose to ignore that we do not turn the other cheek, but prefer to defend ourselves, whilst doing so we manage to piss the rest of the world off, because we don't do it with kid gloves..
Your simplistic ultimatum will not work, because there is more than one player here, Israel is just one of them, and then you need to break that up to smaller fractions representing the peoples in Israel, do that for the Palestinians, other ME states, Europe, US ..
Were it that simple the area would have relative peace following the Oslo "agreements".

Soviet... well I touched a nerve didn't I ?
The pro statement as you can see was with a wink.... chill out it was meant in humour as well as fact... I don't have a problem that you are not for Israel...
Hamas .... nothing more than a charity ??? There is so much info out there about Hamas If you want I will provide a link or three...
"Sure there would be the occasional terrorist act...." This is not acceptable.... don't you understand???? This is why for many many years there has been conflict between the peoples here ... "occasional terrorist act " .... !!!!
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"
Who sold Communist China the Advanced Warning and Control (AWACS) System the Patriot Missile Defense System, the Tomahawk Missile, the Sidewinder Missile, the Battlefield Laser Gun, the F16 Fighter, and dozens of other high-tech military weapon systems? The Arabs? No, it was Israel."

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Where the hell did you get this info from ????!!!!! Anyway you are wrong... prove me wrong!

Ethnic cleansing, you cheapen the horror that means... and Jews have been "natives" here in this land for many years.... before Europe got in and then out of the "Dark Ages" !!!

Soviet... well I touched a nerve didn't I ?
The pro statement as you can see was with a wink.... chill out it was meant in humour as well as fact... I don't have a problem that you are not for Israel...
Hamas .... nothing more than a charity ??? There is so much info out there about Hamas If you want I will provide a link or three...
"Sure there would be the occasional terrorist act...." This is not acceptable.... don't you understand???? This is why for many many years there has been conflict between the peoples here ... "occasional terrorist act " .... !!!!

Provide the links then, as long as they aren't from that MEMRI or whatever that website people seem to be fond of quoting is called. Anyway you keep taking things out of context, Hamas was supported actually supported by Israel in the early years before it turned violent see the wikipedia article below. Obviously it has expanded its activities since then, which you don't have to point out to me.

Anyway it doesn't really bother me that you are pro Israel, although I don't really see how you could classify me as anti Israel, since all I have ever advocated for is the abolishment of most or all of the settlements and a limited right to return for Palestinian refugees which is the approach of the unfortunately unofficial Geneva peace accord which enjoys widespread but far from universal support in Israel. If I were an Israeli I'd probably be in the Yahad (very leftist) party, but this whole notion that only those who want to expand the settlements and maybe even create a greater Israel taking over neighboring countries are patriotic is a load of crap.

Anyway Arayan guy is sort of right about Israel selling weapons to china, but not totally. It was Pakistan who sold China the F-16, although Israel sold them some of the components from their Lavi fighter jet which included American militatary technology. The Israelis recently tried to sell AWACs to China but the US got very very upset and put a stop to it. I just saw an AP article which talked about the Japanese PM asking Israel to stop selling military hardware to its "neighbors" obviously meaning China. I don't know about some of the other stuff Aryan person talked about though.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#History
Hamas was funded directly and indirectly during the 1970s and 1980s by various states including Saudi Arabia and Syria. The political/charitable arm of Hamas was officially registered and recognized within Israel at this time: indeed Israel supported and encouraged Hamas' early growth in an effort to undermine the secular Fatah movement of Yasser Arafat. Hamas abstained from politics throughout the 1970s and early 1980s, concentrating on social issues such as exposing corruption, administration of waqf (trusts) and organizing community projects. Towards the mid-80s, however, the movement was taken over by a militant faction led by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin.
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Japan asks Israel to end arms sales to East Asia

By The Associated Press
Last Update: 17/01/2005 01:08

Foreign Minister Nobutaka Machimura of Japan has asked Israel to end weapons sales to his country's neighbors, while stressing that Japan wants to expand defense cooperation with Israel and play a greater role in the Mideast peace process.

Machimura, who has arrived for talks with Israeli and Palestinian officials, said at a press conference yesterday that he had privately passed on the request about stopping weapons sales East Asian countries to Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom. Machimura added that his government had recently made similar requests to Russia and the European Union, but did not specify which Asian countries he meant.

Soviet...the link you provided is good enough for me, as you can see it started out as a charitable organization and was against the curruption of the plo.... which it is today. Hamas is just a name of an off shoot of radical islamic teachings, it could be called anything.
http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html just more info...

brb... more later ...

Israel sells alot of arms/tech to the world. The fact that the US does have a say in what Israel sells. The reasons are many, some I have listed ... (all of which are my own opinion and does not represent fact).
In my opinion, one of the reasons Israel gets the aid, is to limit the amount of weapons sales Israel does. Like the opinion or not, I believe it has merit. The Phalcon sales alone would have made $1 bill + and this was scrapped.
Another reason in my opinion is that the actions of the Israeli elected government are limited to the actions it takes against it's enemies are agreeded upon with the US government.

For all the anti/pro Israel/jew and/or arab/islamic opinions out there.

There is a large amount of people in Israel who want and vote for peace. Whether this means exiting areas that have been won from past wars and to the creation of a State, or whatever .. We have as well people that are made up of an idiology that has been present in the Jewish people since the time of the bible/s .. These people firmly believe that Jews belong to this land because G-d gave it to them. There is terrible strife in this country amounst the Jews with both left and right point's of view. This same strife is present in the Arab population/s as well. One attacks the other, the other reacts.... it is a cycle whereby just stating ... that one should take the "higher moral" outlook just does not work. Lives are lost. For Jews this is not acceptable. For this reason, AND.... to show weakness in this region is very very very ... bad. Just look at the leadership of Israel's neighbors....all of whom are dictatorships... Egypt included . Anyway....


By the way Memri is direct translations of articles and TV programs in the middle east, and not reports written from opinion. (I may be wrong... but this is how I read it ;-) )

Published on Thursday, May 9, 2002 by CommonDreams.org
U.S. Arms Sales to Israel End Up In China, Iraq
by Jonathan Reingold
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0509-07.htm

From 1990 to 2000 U.S. military aid to Israel totaled over $18 billion. No other nation in the world has such a close relationship with the U.S. military and arms industry.




U.S. Aid to Israel Subsidizes a Potent Weapons Exporter
"U.S. defense chiefs say Israel sold China the missiles without informing the United States."
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/p-krane.html




China's Missile Imports and Assistance From Israel

China's missile-related imports and assistance from Israel have been a subject of particular concern in the United States because of worries that Israel may be providing China with "back door" access to controlled, sensitive US technology. For example, in the early 1990s, reports surfaced that Israel had secretly transferred information on the US Patriot missile system to China, in violation of Israel's promise to the United States not to transfer the Patriot technology to any third country. Although both China and Israel denied the allegations, US government sources concluded that it was almost certain that a transfer of technology (though not physical equipment) had taken place.
http://www.nti.org/db/china/imisr.htm

US demands Israel confiscate UAVs sold to China
Israel sold Harpy unmanned aerial vehicles to China in the early 1990s. The UAVs are currently in Israel for upgrading.
http://www.globes.co.il/DocsEn/did=866941.htm

Panel cites Israel, Russia as aiding Chinese military
http://www.taiwandc.org/nws-9737.htm

U.S., Israel in dustup over weapons upgrade for China


SPECIAL TO WORLD TRIBUNE.COM
Thursday, December 16, 2004
TEL AVIV — Defense relations between Israel and the United States are in crisis over Israel's continued defense and security relations with China.

The United States has accused Israel of concealing a recent upgrade of a major Israeli weapons system sold to China in the mid-1990s.
http://216.26.163.62/2004/me_israel_12_16.html

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42166



This should be enough information to prove beyond a doubt that israel is a parasite and needs to be put in its place. :upyours:

United_Aryan_Peoples.... you examples for the Phalcon are not hidden by me, and I mentioned them. As you might have read, Israel listened to the US and handed the Phalcon back without the upgrades. Put in place if you like.

The fact of the military aid is also not hidden and is well know... as for your Ted Turner NTI, I could give you a right wing Israeli site as well to counter this just to carry on the pissing contest of urls.

Like I said, Israel is a world leader in arms sales...limited by US needs and demands. Not that I mind.... the US is our big brother, whether you like it or not. And people like you, are like water on a ducks back to me (Aryan connotation to Nazis ?? ) with all due respect to this site.... up yours too !

While I am pro-Israeli . . . my isolationist foregin policy means that we'd have to cut aid to all nations, gradually though

so what if there a communist dictorship there not the only on once in the world, but there the only one with an embrago on them, and the thermonuclear war forget that!

Why should we? Why should we forgot that Fidel Castro almost destroyed the entire world?


what about north korea?

The United States is still in a state of war with the DPRK, which means the equivilent of a complete embargo is in place.

and last i've heard Isreal isn't that liberal.
The State of Israel is a liberal democracy. Period.

What? The RoC was no better than the PRC in terms of political freedoms until the very recent election of Chen Shui-bian, and even then the KMT tried to assassinate him.

Key word "WAS"

The "country" is run by people who are descended from mainland Chinese; the Taiwanese don't even control their own island. So, no, the RoC is not a liberal democracy. Sorry.

And the ethnically Chinese compose the majority of the population. Australia, Canada and the United States are unquestioningly liberal democracies. They are run by people desecended from Europe. They are not controlled by the natives of those countries. Your argument is baseless; the RoC is indeed a liberal democracy.

And I misinterpreted your other statement. I assumed when you said "disproportianate power" you meant global/economic power,
That is what I meant, and they do.

The State of Israel is a liberal democracy. Period.

The likud party is in power and they are right-wing !

-sigh-

Time for a lesson in politics. The term "liberal democracy" is not a reference to modern (or "welfare liberalism). It's "classical liberalism," that, is a democracy limited by a Constitution, protecting the right and liberties of people beyond the normal reach of a democracy's elected officials. A liberal democracy can indeed have a conservative or libertarian party in power.

The United Nations - in resolutions agreed on by every nation that is not effectively under US control - has affirmed the right of the Palestinian people to their own state. The total number of countries that have ever voted against these resolutions is 6: Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau, United States, and Israel.

I acknowledge the right of Israel to exist - if any of you see me challenging that in any of my posts please point that out to me. What I don't acknowledge is their right to shoot at civilians because they possibly might in a certain light be terrorists. I don't think that the suicide bombers can possibly be excused for what they've done, but the only position I've seen that justifies the actions of the trigger-happy Israeli soldiers is one of guilt by association, and that's not much of a justification.

Recent topic at a debate tournament at whether or not the United States should stop sending aid to Israel. What is your oppinion on this issue???
On the one hand, Israel is probably the closest thing to a democracy in the region, so we should be supportive and encouraging. An incredibly determined group of people created a country despite the best efforts of the British (who put the Jews BACK into concentration camps at the end of WWII) and the Arabs...very impressive!

On the other hand, they commit terroristic acts on a pretty much daily basis by sending missiles and tanks through residential neighborhoods without warning, so that aid should be contingent on how they act.

Flame away folks.