NationStates Jolt Archive

Do Americans really think, as Lightning_Star seemed to be saying in another thread, that the USA is todays equivalent of Imperial Rome?

I Hope not.

Do Americans really think, as Lightning_Star seemed to be saying in another thread, that the USA is todays equivalent of Imperial Rome?

I Hope not.

For non-US citizens present times appear to be just like US's own film depictions of the decline of Roman Empire.

For non-US citizens present times appear to be just like US's own film depictions of the decline of Roman Empire.

Rome declined because Roman armies fought Roman amries, this isn't happening in the US.

As an American citizen, I can tell that an American Empire (such as it is) does exist, though it is an economic one, rather than a geographic one. Americans are, by nature, distrustful of the word "empire," and I honestly don't think the world needs to worry about us, unless you're an evil dictator who's buddies with France. Then we'll lay the smackdowon on you. Eventually.

*awaits flammage*

Americans are, by nature, distrustful of the word "empire," and I honestly don't think the world needs to worry about us, unless you're an evil dictator who's buddies with France. Then we'll lay the smackdowon on you. Eventually.

*awaits flammage*
*flame ahoy!*

Okay, we do have an Empire, both economic and political. Our little islands in the south pacific and caribbean is our political empire and anywhere where a US company is is the economic empire.

Why did you bring France into this though? And why an evil dictator who likes France? Have they done anything to you to warrant your apparent hate? And Yes, the US will lay the smackdown until Europe unites into the superstate and can lay the smackdown on the US

Rome declined for many reasons. There was corruption, the bread and circuses, population decline, barbarian invasions, decaying values, weakened legions (no longer were the legions comprised of mostly disciplined Italians, they were comprised of mostly Germanic/Gallic barbarians and mercenaries.), etc.

There are similarities:

Corruption (Patriot Act?)

Bread and Circuses (Welfare?)

Population decline (Not 100% sure, but I recall something about the immigration into the US being the main factor for the growth in US population)

Barbarian invasions (Immigrants?)

Decaying values (Spears's wedding, Monica Lewinsky, etc.)

Weakened legions (Not yet, I don't think, you could argue it, but I won't.)

*flame ahoy!*

Okay, we do have an Empire, both economic and political. Our little islands in the south pacific and caribbean is our political empire and anywhere where a US company is is the economic empire.

Why did you bring France into this though? And why an evil dictator who likes France? Have they done anything to you to warrant your apparent hate? And Yes, the US will lay the smackdown until Europe unites into the superstate and can lay the smackdown on the US

Yeah, we do have a physical empire (i.e. Puerto Rico, Guam, etc), but it's nothing compared to what Britain, France, Spain, Portugal, Russia, or hell, even the Netherlands had at their respective heights.

As for France and evil dictators, that was a not-so-subtle jab at Saddam Hussein, and his dealings with France and the U.N. And as for Europe being able to take down the US...no. Won't happen in our lifetimes unless the US goes down the shitter real fast. And Europe stops being socialist and gutting their armies to pay for sub-par universal healthcare. But, what do I know? I'm just a conservative, and therefore stupid. Ah.

And as for Europe being able to take down the US...no. Won't happen in our lifetimes unless the US goes down the shitter real fast. And Europe stops being socialist and gutting their armies to pay for sub-par universal healthcare. But, what do I know? I'm just a conservative, and therefore stupid. Ah.

Actually its quite feasable. A combined European army is roughly twice the size of the US army. The only thing they really need to do is update some of their equipment. The Navies and Armies are on par with the US forces. The Euro Air Forces could use some upgrades though.

Corruption (Patriot Act?)

Bread and Circuses (Welfare?)

Population decline (Not 100% sure, but I recall something about the immigration into the US being the main factor for the growth in US population)

Barbarian invasions (Immigrants?)

Decaying values (Spears's wedding, Monica Lewinsky, etc.)

Weakened legions (Not yet, I don't think, you could argue it, but I won't.)

I don't think the Patriot Act is corrupt. Dangerous, yes. Corrupt, no.
I'm against the welfare state that exists in this country.
I plead ignorance concerning population growth or lack thereof.
I wouldn't call Mexicans barbarians. It's not PC.
I agree about the values.
Our army isn't weak. It's a weaker than before Clinton got elected, but not truly weak yet.

Bread and Circuses (Welfare?)

sitcoms and shopping malls

Actually its quite feasable. A combined European army is roughly twice the size of the US army. The only thing they really need to do is update some of their equipment. The Navies and Armies are on par with the US forces. The Euro Air Forces could use some upgrades though.

Germany and France, the European military powerhouses (aside from Britain, of course) can together put about 20,000 troops outside of Europe. The US can put hundreds of thousands in Europe.

Europe can't invade America. Our navy would stop them. A bloody fight, no doubt, but I think we'd prevail. On the other hand, our numbers if nothing else would allow us to force a landing in Europe.

Thirdly, a simple war of attrition. America's greater resources would let us fight longer than the Europeans.

I'm not advocating war with Europe. I'm just saying it's a good bet we'd win.

Rome declined because Roman armies fought Roman amries, this isn't happening in the US.

Rome declined, principally, because the evil barbarians swept through the empire so quickly they became unstoppable - their corruption and natural force of decay spread to the very limits of the great empire.

Rome declined, principally, because the evil barbarians swept through the empire so quickly they became unstoppable - their corruption and natural force of decay spread to the very limits of the great empire.

And the Empire was overextended; they couldn't hold their lands with the population they had.

Rome declined for many reasons. There was corruption, the bread and circuses, population decline, barbarian invasions, decaying values, weakened legions (no longer were the legions comprised of mostly disciplined Italians, they were comprised of mostly Germanic/Gallic barbarians and mercenaries.), etc.

There are similarities:

Corruption (Patriot Act?)

Bread and Circuses (Welfare?)

Population decline (Not 100% sure, but I recall something about the immigration into the US being the main factor for the growth in US population)

Barbarian invasions (Immigrants?)

Decaying values (Spears's wedding, Monica Lewinsky, etc.)

Weakened legions (Not yet, I don't think, you could argue it, but I won't.)
This is quite possibly the most retarded post I've ever seen. How can you equate britney spears with the morality of the whole country. She is just a pop star, she'll be forgotten as soon as her boobs sag. I dont think she can bring the usa to her knees.

I'm against the welfare state that exists in this country.


America is a welfare state? Since when? I thought you guys didn't give stuff like universal healthcare (I thought you had a 'user pays' system), unemployment benefits for the long term unemployed et cetera?

Rome declined, principally, because the evil barbarians swept through the empire so quickly they became unstoppable - their corruption and natural force of decay spread to the very limits of the great empire.

I'm sorry, but who are the barbarians sweeping through the USA? NAFTA supporters?

America is a welfare state? Since when? I thought you guys didn't give stuff like universal healthcare (I thought you had a 'user pays' system), unemployment benefits for the long term unemployed et cetera?

America does not have a welfare state in the Canadian or European sense, no. What we do have is a ridiculous amount of money wasted each year on social programs that either don't work, or worse, perpetuate the problem.

Forgive my choice of words, I can see how they were confusing.

*Just had midterm on this & got A+*
Western Rome Declined:
Socioeconomic Reasons: In the West the trade was not near as good as it was in the East. The west did have farming but they could not trade with the Great Eastern cities because of the long distances. The aristocrats, when leadership became poorer, refused to pay taxes and ended up making their own armies to fight off tax collectors.

Military Reasons: As discussed earlier, when the trade became less, so did the army. The Romans had armies in Gaul and in Brittain, but when an attack of barbarians besieged Rome those armies were taken back to Rome and the territories were lost.

Poor Leadership: The great emperors had diminished and now the leaders would make poor decisions of war and would be crushed. They broke alliances and opened the borders to attacks. Those attacks eventually brought the fall of Rome.

I'm not advocating war with Europe. I'm just saying it's a good bet we'd win.

I'll agree with you there. Right now, Euorpe can't take America but with veru little effort, it wuite possibly could.

The Euorpean army right now is roughly 2 million strong. (AP Comp Gov class, w00t). They have a population of 500 mil. The US is at about 300 mil. Europe also has a stronger economy as a whole, not including GBR. I think, within the next twenty years, America could be facing down a European superstate that could quite feasably batter down the US in military conflict.

America does not have a welfare state in the Canadian or European sense, no. What we do have is a ridiculous amount of money wasted each year on social programs that either don't work, or worse, perpetuate the problem.

Forgive my choice of words, I can see how they were confusing.

No problems. I personally call this the 'feel good econemy,' because you spend some money on something and it does not matter if it works or helps people or not, as long as people can feel good about doing something, even if that something is nothing.;)

America is a welfare state? Since when? I thought you guys didn't give stuff like universal healthcare (I thought you had a 'user pays' system), unemployment benefits for the long term unemployed et cetera?
We don't its just this country's so right of center that the right wingers can claim this and be taken seriusly(sp).

I'll agree with you there. Right now, Euorpe can't take America but with veru little effort, it wuite possibly could.

The Euorpean army right now is roughly 2 million strong. (AP Comp Gov class, w00t). They have a population of 500 mil. The US is at about 300 mil. Europe also has a stronger economy as a whole, not including GBR. I think, within the next twenty years, America could be facing down a European superstate that could quite feasably batter down the US in military conflict.

Have you all forgot about the Nuclear deterrent!! No nation could ever invade the usa without getting its homeland burnt to a crisp. The wars will still happen but they wont be on our soil.

*Just had midterm on this & got A+*
Western Rome Declined:
Socioeconomic Reasons: In the West the trade was not near as good as it was in the East. The west did have farming but they could not trade with the Great Eastern cities because of the long distances. The aristocrats, when leadership became poorer, refused to pay taxes and ended up making their own armies to fight off tax collectors.

Military Reasons: As discussed earlier, when the trade became less, so did the army. The Romans had armies in Gaul and in Brittain, but when an attack of barbarians besieged Rome those armies were taken back to Rome and the territories were lost.

Poor Leadership: The great emperors had diminished and now the leaders would make poor decisions of war and would be crushed. They broke alliances and opened the borders to attacks. Those attacks eventually brought the fall of Rome.

The Capitalists who want no taxes are the aristocrats, and that is one of the only declines I see

I'll agree with you there. Right now, Euorpe can't take America but with veru little effort, it wuite possibly could.

The Euorpean army right now is roughly 2 million strong. (AP Comp Gov class, w00t). They have a population of 500 mil. The US is at about 300 mil. Europe also has a stronger economy as a whole, not including GBR. I think, within the next twenty years, America could be facing down a European superstate that could quite feasably batter down the US in military conflict.

But Europe is really too diverse (nationally, not ethnicly). Assume Great Britain and America's new friends in Eastern Europe Stay neutral. That leaves, militarily speaking, France, Germany, Spain, and Italy. All of these nations, we have defeated before. None of them have beaten us. Consider that effect on both sides' morale, and suddenly Europe is much less impressive.

But Europe is really too diverse (nationally, not ethnicly). Assume Great Britain and America's new friends in Eastern Europe Stay neutral. That leaves, militarily speaking, France, Germany, Spain, and Italy. All of these nations, we have defeated before. None of them have beaten us. Consider that effect on both sides' morale, and suddenly Europe is much less impressive.

When has America defeated France? They were on your side during the war of Independance, during WWI & WWII...

okay, first off. Nuclear deterrant is not a viable option. Its just meant to stop others from launching their nukes. If the US were to make a nuclear strike, the US would take so much political, social, and economic flak from the rest of the world that it would not survive as a power for more than five years after the strike.

With the European status now, each EU member is actually beholdent to the EU. The European Assembly can declare other nation's laws to be unconstitutional, can draft, and control economic options. The EU has 25 members right now with Turkey and two Eastern European nations being considered for membership. If the UK drops out but all others are accepted, it leave 27 nations under the EU.

okay, first off. Nuclear deterrant is not a viable option. Its just meant to stop others from launching their nukes. If the US were to make a nuclear strike, the US would take so much political, social, and economic flak from the rest of the world that it would not survive as a power for more than five years after the strike.

With the European status now, each EU member is actually beholdent to the EU. The European Assembly can declare other nation's laws to be unconstitutional, can draft, and control economic options. The EU has 25 members right now with Turkey and two Eastern European nations being considered for membership. If the UK drops out but all others are accepted, it leave 27 nations under the EU.

You obviously dont understand the nuclear deterrent. The USA will never be attacked by any sane nation because it would mean the complete and utter destruction of their homeland. It dosen't matter what would happen to the usa afterwards.

Germany and France, the European military powerhouses (aside from Britain, of course) can together put about 20,000 troops outside of Europe. The US can put hundreds of thousands in Europe.

Europe can't invade America. Our navy would stop them. A bloody fight, no doubt, but I think we'd prevail. On the other hand, our numbers if nothing else would allow us to force a landing in Europe.

Thirdly, a simple war of attrition. America's greater resources would let us fight longer than the Europeans.

I'm not advocating war with Europe. I'm just saying it's a good bet we'd win.

I think it's a bit of a pointless debate. IMO the US would probably beat Europe, as a single nation it has a more cohesive military. However, if it was a nuclear war, the fallout would probably make losers of us all.

Most definitely! More economically than physically (land) though. But both are the same as far as expansion of cultural influence.

You obviously dont understand the nuclear deterrent. The USA will never be attacked by any sane nation because it would mean the complete and utter destruction of their homeland. It dosen't matter what would happen to the usa afterwards.
Why not Europe has nukes to they could just bomb us back.

I think it's a bit of a pointless debate. IMO the US would probably beat Europe, as a single nation it has a more cohesive military. However, if it was a nuclear war, the fallout would probably make losers of us all.

Hehe.. not at all. Europe would defeat the US anytime.

We must also begin to realize that the future warfare will not be bombs, planes and tanks but rather attacks and threats on the economy, and guerilla organizations.
If you really want to get the US, attack it's economy. Everyone feels the pain that way. Globally too.

When has America defeated France? They were on your side during the war of Independance, during WWI & WWII...

Quasi War, 1799-1800.

Hehe.. not at all. Europe would defeat the US anytime.

We must also begin to realize that the future warfare will not be bombs and plans and tanks but rather attacks and threats on the economy.
If you really want to get the US, attack it's economy. Everyone feels the pain that way. Globally too.

Bring down the US economy, you bring the world down with it. The world market, Europe included, needs American capital.

Bring down the US economy, you bring the world down with it. The world market, Europe included, needs American capital.

yea, isnt that what I said?

Why not Europe has nukes to they could just bomb us back.
The point is.... They would never start a war on American soil because they would return home to a piece of charred earth. By provoking the USA you would seal the fate of everything you hold dear. Nobody wants this to happen to anyone, but it has been the basis of world stability for over 50 years. You may want to nuke us back but it wouldn't matter, all would be lost with no hope of ever recovering.

The point is.... They would never start a war on American soil because they would return home to a piece of charred earth. By provoking the USA you would seal the fate of everything you hold dear. Nobody wants this to happen to anyone, but it has been the basis of world stability for over 50 years. You may want to nuke us back but it wouldn't matter, all would be lost with no hope of ever recovering.

Hence the US is holding a sense of "forced" peace in the western world. Such things only last so long.

It sounds very gloomy but its true, luckily if you're a member of NATO, then you are also under this protective blanket. No nation on earth could stop it, we have enough nukes to destroy the entire earth 150 times. Why do you think that the soviets never attacked the usa. They hated us but they also loved their own country, they loved their mothers and their children. If they ever invaded then it would all be gone in one big poof. They realised that no bickering is worth ending the world as we know it.

The point is.... They would never start a war on American soil because they would return home to a piece of charred earth. By provoking the USA you would seal the fate of everything you hold dear. Nobody wants this to happen to anyone, but it has been the basis of world stability for over 50 years. You may want to nuke us back but it wouldn't matter, all would be lost with no hope of ever recovering.
Yes but the same thing would happen if the US attaked Europe

Quasi War, 1799-1800.

Today is a good day because I have learnt something! http://www.history.navy.mil/biblio/biblio4/biblio4a.htm

Yes but the same thing would happen if the US attaked Europe

Now you are getting the idea...

Now that Europe has become more united both economically and culturally, it may seem they are gaining the capability to break from US capital. But the US also has China to deal with, a very worthy opponent to come in later years.
To some of you it may seem ridiculous to hear now, but China and Europe WILL become the focus of the world in this century, and they will discover many feats which can either benefit the world, or destroy it.

Thus the Nuclear DETERRENCE........... Notice the key word in caps.

Nevertheless, Atlantis has a point - only I would allocate Juvenal's "bread and circuses" description to our preoccupation with cinematic achievements and, of course, McDonald's.

The European Union is practically as evil and worthless as the United Nations and the U.S. Senate (concerning sheer corruption). :)

The European Union is practically as evil and worthless as the United Nations and the U.S. Senate (concerning sheer corruption). :)

Unfortunately, you may have to include some of the House of Reps as many of them do the same thing the Senate does without care or responsibility. In fact, the whole system has gone kaplunk. The EU, UN, & US

Bring down the US economy, you bring the world down with it. The world market, Europe included, needs American capital.

That's an interesting thought, re-start the world economy from scratch. I wonder what the outcome of that would be.

That's an interesting thought, re-start the world economy from scratch. I wonder what the outcome of that would be.

You know what I DO wonder, what if colony of Roanoke would have survived whatever it was that made it disappear. I wonder how different the US or whatever nation would derrive from them would be like. I wonder if karma did that to prevent a model society of greatness and good, and that it was destroyed through planning to have men suffer more in the world and/or discover on their own because of it. I know it's way off topic, but just think about it. I don't think it would have evolved into being the Puritan country we have today.

The European Union is practically as evil and worthless as the United Nations and the U.S. Senate (concerning sheer corruption). :)

Harldy as worthless as the UN. As the US senate. . . I think its still much mor effective. The US senate has slacked off. Too many special interests.

It's not just the Senate, guys

A little info:

Russia's land- and submarine-launched strategic warheads have a total explosive power equal to about 120,000 bombs of the size that destroyed Hiroshima.

The USA has about 30 percent more. Together we could destroy the entire earth about 350 times. A little overkill if you ask me...

Rome declined for many reasons. There was corruption, the bread and circuses, population decline, barbarian invasions, decaying values, weakened legions (no longer were the legions comprised of mostly disciplined Italians, they were comprised of mostly Germanic/Gallic barbarians and mercenaries.), etc.

There are similarities:

Corruption (Patriot Act?)

Bread and Circuses (Welfare?)

Population decline (Not 100% sure, but I recall something about the immigration into the US being the main factor for the growth in US population)

Barbarian invasions (Immigrants?)

Decaying values (Spears's wedding, Monica Lewinsky, etc.)

Weakened legions (Not yet, I don't think, you could argue it, but I won't.)
bread and circuses?...how about welfare and reality TV
another one of the "decaying values" might be the increased divorce rate (some wouldn't argue this, some would, i'm not going for either, just an idea)
a gun loving american citizen (i'm not a bush supporter though) :sniper:

Yes, I forgot to mention increasing divorce rates. The fact remains, Rome declined for many reasons and not just one. America will fall in the same way, not through being conquered by an enemy but by collapse from the inside.

We might not fall tomorrow but some of the things going on today will lead to our eventual fall.

OK To clarify some things:

A US- EU war is just impossible. It would mean the destruction of both, regardless of the question who wins. Both have nukes, both have huge armies. They would fight for so long and destroy so much, that for sure some other power (China?) would emerge and dominate both, exactly as WW II left previously dominant Europe as a mere pawn in the hands of the superpowers.

The second problem is that the EU and the US just have too close a relationship to actually start a war. So many Europeans live and study in the US, so may Americans live, study and visit the EU euch year. Even more importantly, big European companies get 30% of their profits from the US, big American companies sell 30% of their products in the EU. Just imagine your life without BMW, Mercedes, Airbus and French Champagne if you are American, or without Microsoft, IBM, Boeing and Cisco if you are European.

There is a possibility of a small conflict, but this would be outside the respective homelands. Europeans and Americans have sometimes conflicting world views, conflicting interests. So it is conceivable that a disagreement over the future of say the Middle East becomes so severe, that the EU and the US stop speaking to each other.

This would be a big problem for international cooperation, it would be bad for trade relations, but it could not mean a prolonged fight.
The European and American economies are really too interdependent. And unlike what somebody has said here, the US needs european capital much more than the EU needs american capital (just think who is financing the huge American trade deficit: The EU and Japan ofcourse).

If you still want to imagine the impossible event of a big conflict, then the EU would eventually have the upper hand. It has superior resources, a slightly bigger economy, much bigger population and actually more friends (e.g. Russia) !

PS Comparing the Us with the Roman Empire is a laugh. The Roman empire was the undisputed dominant power in every important aspect. Nowadays the US can not even win one trade war against the EU, not to say against the whole world.

You know what I DO wonder, what if colony of Roanoke would have survived whatever it was that made it disappear.

roanoke probably went native.

or else ken macleod got it right in the "engines of light" trilogy, and they were picked up by saurs and taken to a planet called croatan in the second sphere and will eventually be found by cosmonauts who are tricked by the gods that inhabit the asteriods...

The US defeated France during the French-Indian War( 7 Years War)

War between the EU and the US? Are you kidding? It will nver happen! The EU is to dependent on the US's consumerism. But if it happened the US would definitely win.
1. Europe could NEVER unite, its to diverse, and they all still hate each other.
2. US is to vast to conquer. The Brits found that out when we were still just 13 colonies.
3. the US has a technologically superior army, with combat experience (when is the last time a european fought a real war?)


I hope it never happens still. In the case o nuclear war we'd all be the losers

PS Comparing the Us with the Roman Empire is a laugh. The Roman empire was the undisputed dominant power in every important aspect. Nowadays the US can not even win one trade war against the EU, not to say against the whole world.

Which sums up what I thought when I stated this thread, thank you.

The US defeated France during the French-Indian War( 7 Years War)

War between the EU and the US? Are you kidding? It will nver happen! The EU is to dependent on the US's consumerism. But if it happened the US would definitely win.
1. Europe could NEVER unite, its to diverse, and they all still hate each other.
2. US is to vast to conquer. The Brits found that out when we were still just 13 colonies.
3. the US has a technologically superior army, with combat experience (when is the last time a european fought a real war?)


I hope it never happens still. In the case o nuclear war we'd all be the losers

Why is it that the Americans think that the world depends on their consumerism. There are what, 270 million Americans, and more than 6 Billion people in the world, that makes America, the USA, about 5% of the worlds consumers. Not a critical numer. The USA does have the highest capital turnover, but that does not mean anything more when you also consider that they have the highest level of personal debt.

Europe is pretty united. There are language and minor cultural barriers. And the CAP to cause internal conflict, but it is no more diverse than say Miami and Salt Lake City are.

Nowhere is too vast to conquer. Ask Genghis Khan.

The US army has experience, but no technological advantage. Experience can of courese be good and bad, look at the Gulf war syndrome, what we called shell shock after WWI, post combat fatigue etc. Take your average college age recruit and push him or her through a war does not necessarily make him a better soldier, it may make them worse.

However, this thread was not about a US vs EU war, it was about the image of america as having an imperial attitude.