NationStates Jolt Archive

Hello!

anybody who has read "paradise lost" OR his "dark materials" will probably be familliar with the passage:

Into this wild abyss,
The womb of nature and perhaps her grave,
Of neither sea, nor shore, nor air, nor fire,
But all these in their pregnant causes mixed
Confusedly, and which thus must ever fight,
Unless the almighty maker them ordain
His dark materials to create more worlds,
Into this wild abyss the wary feind..

etc etc

"dark matter" is a modern concept, and as many physicists/physics students will tell you, it is a phrase that is thrown about rather too often for something that is essentially unproven (there is X mass/energy missing...so its dark matter...even though we cant prove its there, we can prove that something ISNT there that should be...not quite the same thing).

So, unless somone can confirm that the phrase "dark matter" is somehow derived from the above passage in a bust of rather dark (pun not intended) humor...or can explain Milton's words, and how he came to them (i belive that he thought himself to be "guided by voices", didnt he?)...then i am wondering can anybody explain why there is not a connection between the two?

its interesting because some of the more...well...pseudo-science-type approaches to the formation of the universe seem to cite dark matter and dark energy (attractive and replusive forces unexplained by the known ammounts of matter and energy) as a mechanism for the universes creation, and probably by coincidence, milton hints at a simillar-sounding process.

Some background for y'all: I personally do belive in god, and that to a degree, everything is pre-ordained - which is why this ocurred to me while talking with a friend who studies physics about dark matter...not as a result of the recent channel4 documentries, i hasten to add..it was long before that...those were TERRIBLE examples of dcumentry making (i hardly ever watch television - i.e. less than once a week on average - because whenever i do switch it on i am bored into a catatonic state by it...or made so angry by the vapid and mindless pursuits of the modern age ;) )

anyway - anybody who thinks they will get away with insulting my belifes had better think again - maybe in a differant thread but not this one - this is a discussion on the history and origin of the terms "dark matter" and "dark materials"....for now, anyway.

Because if Milton were alve today, he would be a Trekkie.

But seriously, "dark material" may not necessarily refer to dark matter. The most realistic explanation is that Milton was referring to sin and vice, and the translation turned out as dark material.

...create an initially perfect universe out of sin and vice?

i know he was crazy and he contradicts his own faith many times in PL....but..erm...come again?

Many Christian sects, especially Old World ones, believe that God created the universe "out of" sin and vice, then put humans in it. To put it more simply, he put humans on the planet to try and survive in a world of vice and sin. As Milton was from a time and place in history where this viewpoint was particularly predominant, I would not be surprised if this was his meaning. Of course, I am no theologian so if anyone can prove me wrong, feel free.

Into this wild abyss,
The womb of nature and perhaps her grave,
Of neither sea, nor shore, nor air, nor fire,
But all these in their pregnant causes mixed
Confusedly, and which thus must ever fight,
Unless the almighty maker them ordain
His dark materials to create more worlds,
Into this wild abyss the wary feind..

this doesn't seem to have anything to do with the scientific concept of dark matter and furthermore,

"dark matter" is a modern concept, and as many physicists/physics students will tell you, it is a phrase that is thrown about rather too often for something that is essentially unproven (there is X mass/energy missing...so its dark matter...even though we cant prove its there, we can prove that something ISNT there that should be...not quite the same thing).

dark matter includes say, brown dwarfs which don't shine, but are massive. it would also include white dwarves that have cooled to the point of being dead and not emitting energy anymore, thus would be dark. it can also be rather hard to detect black holes unless they're absorbing something...

it's dark energy that's essentially unproven.

Dark matter is not energy, per se. It really is a category all of is own, from what I've read.

Because if Milton were alve today, he would be a Trekkie.

But seriously, "dark material" may not necessarily refer to dark matter. The most realistic explanation is that Milton was referring to sin and vice, and the translation turned out as dark material.
Nope, in the passage Milton is refering to God creating the universe with his "dark materials". Milton was an artist and a visionary. I totally agree with Blakes assessment of the man.

Sin and vice are entirely compatible with the context. Many Christian sects believe the world was created in sin and vice.

Dark matter is not energy, per se. It really is a category all of is own, from what I've read.
yes, dark matter is still matter, as i said, brown dwarves, black dwarves (i think that's what they end up calling dead white dwarves, and if not, they should) et c.

dark energy is something that is entirely different and weird.

Sorry, I didn't read your entire post. I thought you were equating dark matter with dark energy.

Sin and vice are entirely compatible with the context. Many Christian sects believe the world was created in sin and vice.
Yeah, the Gnostics. But I think what Milton his trying to say here is that God created the universe in a veil of mystery. Thats atleast the sense I get when i read the passage.

That makes sense as well.

Okey im back

right..first off - Sin and vice are entirely compatible with the context. Many Christian sects believe the world was created in sin and vice.

im afraid not, the book clearly describes god creating the universe with no sin in it. at all. nor pain, evil, etc etc - sin in miltons view was an anthromorpholgical (hope i got that one right!) concept personified in a beautiful creature who appeared as i recall from a flaming hole in the side of satans head back when he was still un-fallen. Sin and Lucifer (as he was then) basically had it off, and thats where death came from.

thus, in miltons version of the creation it is not at all possible in any way that the universe was created from sin etc - i promise you - not at all, read PL...sorry if that sounds condascending - it really isnt meant that way - i hadnt even thoght of what you suggested...but alas its also not possible, because that wasnt what milton said...and he didnt contradict himself on *that* issue at least..


As for dark matter and dark materials...materials is the plural of matter. Also, the passage DOES suggest that the lord creates using "his dark materials".


...are you sure brown and white stars are dark matter? im certain they are not...dark matter relates to the unobservable matter in the universe..no..no im dead certain on that one...are you sure?

...are you sure brown and white stars are dark matter? im certain they are not...dark matter relates to the unobservable matter in the universe..no..no im dead certain on that one...are you sure?
yes, i'm certain that brown dwarves are dark matter. they are massive objects which do not emit radiation, thus cannot be observed. similarly a white dwarf that has cooled down does not emit radiation and thus is not observable.

i am certain that dark matter involves brown dwarves... we did learn about that in astronomy last year.

alrighty...i certainaly cant say your wrong, i do architecture! curses.

though i was sure that dark matter was as yet unobservable..at all...but that is i guess what seperates the physics community from everyone else, myself included lol!

*bow*

i conceede.

but still - about paradise lost? anyone?