NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20050113-091121-5993r.htm

When new Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas starts a new round of talks with Israel soon, it is a sure bet that one of his strongest motivating tools to spur the creation of a new Arab state is that surging Palestinian population figures mean that Jews will soon be outnumbered.
But a demographic study released this week could change all that. An eight-person team found that the actual number of residents in Gaza and the West Bank is nearly 1.4 million fewer than the published population of 3.8 million — and they derived much of that number from Palestinian figures. By any standard, the official tally of 3.8 million Palestinians is a breathtaking number. Both Israel and the then-new Palestinian Authority (PA) agreed in 1996 that the population was roughly 2 million — which would mean that the number of people living in Gaza and the West Bank has nearly doubled in eight short years.
During the same time frame, however, birth rates have declined all across the Arab world — except for Palestinians the standard of living for ordinary Palestinians is easily among the highest in Arab world, which should mean that their birth rates would be among the lowest in the region, not the highest.
As improbable as the official PA population figures are, they have not been challenged until now. The United States, the European Union, the United Nations, and even Israel have all accepted the claim that 3.8 million Palestinians live in the territories. And all have used that "fact," to varying degrees, to argue that Israel needs to have a separate Palestinian state and pronto. ( Article Cont. )

Interesting. Was this story carried in a real newspaper, or just the Washington Times?

It doesnt suprise me in the least. I think I'm a fool for even remotely thinking that they would reach peace.

For anyone who doubts the accuracy of the study, it is available for public consumption and inspection at www.pademographics.com.

As to any other newspapers, don't think so.

Woa, but but but but.. Arafat is dead, werent things supposed to be better now? :p

Besides, what is the big deal against the palestinians? They reasoning is simple: Either create a Palestinian state next to israel, or watch israel be eaten by demographics.

Or are you going to accuse the palestinians of being evil because they breed??

I'm not surprised. The palestinians are good at winning foreign support through propaganda, lies and spin.

Or are you going to accuse the palestinians of being evil because they breed??
The point is that they are losing numbers, but are saying their pop. is increasing in order get more UN funding and put pressure on Israel saying they are becoming overpopulated.

The point is that they are losing numbers, but are saying their pop. is increasing in order get more UN funding and put pressure on Israel saying they are becoming overpopulated.


And they fooled the Israelis, their natural enemies? mmmmmm.. Sounds fishy, and most of the errors apparently have been made out of incompetence, and not out of a big conspiracy to swell their numbers.

Still, if this is true, then we shall see more about this. If its not true.. then there are almost 4 millions palestinians out there. if 1% are freak zealots, that is 40000 suicide bombers.. aint maths wounderful.

"... birth rates have declined all across the Arab world."

It's a plot by the evil United States, lead by the even more evil GW Bush! They're using the "genetics bomb" which slowly lowers the sperm count of all members of whatever race is affected! Aieeee! Allah save us! [/scarcasm]

OK people, you really have to read something other than far right newspapers. The Israeli paper Haaretz did a report about this a few days ago.

www.http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/525005.html

Critics slam report debunking demographic threat
By Yair Ettinger

An extra-academic document that debunks one of the foundations of the disengagement plan, "the demographic bomb," will be presented in Washington today to a prestigious academic institution with substantial influence on the Bush administration. The document, which Haaretz has obtained, argues that 2.4 million Palestinians live in the West Bank and Gaza Strip today, and not the 3.8 million claimed by the Palestinian Authority.
In sharp contrast to population studies conducted in Israel by professors Arnon Sofer and Sergio della Pergola, the document argues that Jews continue to maintain a solid 60 percent majority between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.

An Israeli-American group whose members are clearly identified with the right authored the ABC Demographic Project. The group undercuts a prevailing assumption in Israel's public debate - that Jews have ceased, or will soon cease to be, a majority in that territory. The demographic danger is not "all it's made out to be," the writers state.

Della Pergola called the document "groundless," politically slanted and baseless from a research perspective. None of the signatories to the document is a professional in demographic research. Among its authors are former Israeli consul in Texas Yoram Ettinger (no relation to this reporter), former West Bank Civil Administration head Brigadier General (res.) David Shahaf and former Israeli health official Professor Ezra Zohar.

The research was initiated and funded by Los Angeles Jewish businessman Ben Zimmerman and U.S.-based partners, historian Dr. Roberta Seid of the University of South Carolina and businessman Michael Wise.

A great deal of the interest in the document stems from the seal of approval it received from U.S. demographers which paved the way for the invitation to its authors to present their findings to influential conservative think tank American Enterprise Institute in Washington.

Later this week, the document will be presented in New York to the Conference of Presidents of Major Jewish Organizations.

The document claims the updated 2004 statistic presented by the Central Bureau of Statistics on the Palestinian population in the territories - 3.8 million people - is unreliable. It doesn't incorporate emigration from PA territory, which they estimate at hundreds of thousands, a drop in fertility, or tens of thousands of deaths, and it includes about 200,000 residents of East Jerusalem, who are also counted in the Israeli census.

According to the document, Palestinian population growth was 2.4 percent in 2003, not the 4.5 percent reported by the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics.

In 2003, the population in Israel grew 1.7 percent.

PCBS data is based on a 1997 census. The figures are controversial, a controversy revived in recent days prior to the Palestinian elections, when the Palestinian legislature decided to update the voter registration list, adopting statistics from the population registry, which added 600,000 eligible voters to the rolls.

Data on the dead

Various Palestinian and foreign sources claim the population registry includes data on many who are dead or living abroad.

The ABC document claims data from Israeli Border Police indicates consistent negative emigration from the territories of about 10,000 departures annually. Its authors allege that 300,000 Palestinian expatriates living in the U.S., Arab countries, Europe and Latin America appear in the population registry. They support the claim by quoting Norwegian research institute Fafo, situated in Ramallah, that found negative Palestinian immigration of 100,000 in 2001-2002.

Yoram Ettinger said, "The demographic issue has great importance in shaping the approach of the administration, the press and the public on a critical matter to the future of Israeli society. These positions should be determined based on facts and not distortions."

Works by Sofer and della Pergola, based largely on data from the PCBS, find the Jewish population between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea is currently about 50 percent. Della Pergola deducted the population of East Jerusalem and found there were 3.53 million Palestinians in PA territory at the beginning of 2004. Sofer estimates Jews will be a minority of 40 percent in 2020, while della Pergola maintains the figure will be 46.7 percent (including foreign workers and non-Jews).

But della Pergola rejects the new document entirely. He refers to a figure that has no basis in the Israeli population registry, a claim in the document that 300,000 Palestinians have become Israeli citizens since 1967, noting the lack of segmentation of the statistics according to age, "critical in any Israeli-Palestinian demographic study."

He added, "The authors seek to prove the political theory that the status quo is good for us and time is on our side. They are trying to attach some demographic claims to that thesis." The demographer claims there are distorted figures in the document, in addition to a lack of familiarity with professional literature and accepted research methods." Sofer's response was unavailable.

I'm not surprised. The palestinians are good at winning foreign support through propaganda, lies and spin.

Compared to .....

Compared to .....
hell if i know, us does fien with propaganda and spin and government control of the media

Compared to .....
Fox News! ^^

Compared to .....
Well they're better at it than the USA apparently.

The Palestinians like to play the sympathy card with the world and say "Look at how evil Israel is, they're killing children". Then, people feel sorry for them. They often omitt other information and while it is unfortunate children have to die, the people there need to smarten up. If you kick a country in the nuts, it's gonna kick back.

I'm not surprised. The palestinians are good at winning foreign support through propaganda, lies and spin.
As apposed to the US who tries the same. :D

As apposed to the US who tries the same. :D
We're not nearly as good at it as the palestinians. They have most of Europe wrapped around their finger. May have something to do with the repressed antisemitism in Europe. All of my relatives in Europe and all of my family members who came to the USA from Europe are antisemites.

We're not nearly as good at it as the palestinians. They have most of Europe wrapped around their finger. May have something to do with the repressed antisemitism in Europe. All of my relatives in Europe and all of my family members who came to the USA from Europe are antisemites.

What the hell are you bitching about? I have seen you admit several times you are openly racist against muslims. What gives you the right to complain about bigotry when you are an admitted bigot yourself?

What the hell are you bitching about? I have seen you admit several times you are openly racist against muslims. What gives you the right to complain about bigotry when you are an admitted bigot yourself?
The first ammendment of the US constitution does.

We're not nearly as good at it as the palestinians.
Or the Jews.
They have most of Europe wrapped around their finger. May have something to do with the repressed antisemitism in Europe. All of my relatives in Europe and all of my family members who came to the USA from Europe are antisemites.
Thats just a familything.

Or the Jews.

Thats just a familything.
Could be. Could also be a common European prejudice. It seems to me that Europeans are quick to side with the palestinians over the Israelis every time.

Could be. Could also be a common European prejudice. It seems to me that Europeans are quick to side with the palestinians over the Israelis every time.
Would you care to give an example of this siding with? Unless you are reffering to Israeli tanks rolling into Gaza and other cities like the Red Army time and again. Or are you one of those that believes criticism of Israel and it's methods equals anti semitism?

Could be. Could also be a common European prejudice. It seems to me that Europeans are quick to side with the palestinians over the Israelis every time.



Especially the Greeks.

Would you care to give an example of this siding with? Unless you are reffering to Israeli tanks rolling into Gaza and other cities like the Red Army time and again. Or are you one of those that believes criticism of Israel and it's methods equals anti semitism?


Gee, I wonder why the are going into Gaza? Maybe because they keep getting attacked.

The Palestinians like to play the sympathy card with the world and say "Look at how evil Israel is, they're killing children". Then, people feel sorry for them. They often omitt other information and while it is unfortunate children have to die, the people there need to smarten up. If you kick a country in the nuts, it's gonna kick back.

Which country is occupying which?

Which has the refugee camps?

And which the "settlements" in what was the others territory?

And will you ever have a peace settlement without an independent Palestinian state?

Or are these factors information that you decided to "omit"?

Perhaps some "smartening up" is required.

Could be. Could also be a common European prejudice. It seems to me that Europeans are quick to side with the palestinians over the Israelis every time.
because the israelis are no better than the palestinians, and we blindly support the israelis

Would you care to give an example of this siding with? Unless you are reffering to Israeli tanks rolling into Gaza and other cities like the Red Army time and again. Or are you one of those that believes criticism of Israel and it's methods equals anti semitism?
No, Israel can be criticised for building settlements that infringe on land which should be given to the palestinians. It cannot, in my opinion, be criticised for taking strong action to defend it's citizens considering the random rocket attacks, suicide bombings, and shootings that palestinians inflict upon the Israeli civilians.

I'll preface the following point by saying that I don't get a lot of exposure to the European press other than BBC, but I do get some. Their coverage of the Israel/palestine conflict seems to me to be usually one sided in favor of the palestinians.

Which country is occupying which?

Which has the refugee camps?

And which the "settlements" in what was the others territory?

And will you ever have a peace settlement without an independent Palestinian state?

Or are these factors information that you decided to "omit"?

Perhaps some "smartening up" is required.
The settlements are an Israeli screw up. I'll grant you that. Still, Israel is entitled to take action to protect it's civilians from random attacks.

It cannot, in my opinion, be criticised for taking strong action to defend it's citizens considering the random rocket attacks, suicide bombings, and shootings that palestinians inflict upon the Israeli civilians.
Like sending an attack chopper to kill a single guy? While he was surrounded by civilians? Sorry. But I think that deserves to be critizesed as well.

I'll preface the following point by saying that I don't get a lot of exposure to the European press other than BBC, but I do get some. Their coverage of the Israel/palestine conflict seems to me to be usually one sided in favor of the palestinians.
That may be cause they cover both sides. Not just Israels POV.

The first ammendment of the US constitution does.

Unfortunately, being a hypocritical and racist moron infringes on the spirit of the First Amendment. So while legally you are correct, morally you are just a jackass. A stupid one.

Like sending an attack chopper to kill a single guy? While he was surrounded by civilians? Sorry. But I think that deserves to be critizesed as well.

That may be cause they cover both sides. Not just Israels POV.
Terrorist leaders don't exactly walk around in the open, all alone, with a target painted on their shirt. If it's the only way to get to him, and it may save a dozen Israeli lives, then Israel is justified in taking a half dozen palestinian lives.

Which country is occupying which?

Which has the refugee camps?

And which the "settlements" in what was the others territory?

And will you ever have a peace settlement without an independent Palestinian state?

Or are these factors information that you decided to "omit"?

Perhaps some "smartening up" is required.



Israel as a country itself is less than a hundred years old. Many people that live their or their did, came from Europe and in particular the Soviet Union. This is the one place that was officially theirs and sadly, the are surrounded by countries that want to destroy them. Israel is not a large country (land wise). If these people want to live in a muslim country, they have Jordan, Syria and Egypt around them. And peace will only come when they stop killing Israeli civilians, then Israel will feel no need to attack them in retaliation, if they do, then Israel is in the wrong. Until then, it's a back and forth battle. Wow, such a bloody mess over a little strip land on the Med :headbang: Indeed, as I said, people need to "smarten up" . Sometimes Israel does things they shouldn't but they should be able to have their own god damn country.

Unfortunately, being a hypocritical and racist moron infringes on the spirit of the First Amendment. So while legally you are correct, morally you are just a jackass. A stupid one.
Unpopular speech is exactly the type the first ammendment is there to protect. Popular ideas need no protection.

But speech that expresses the desire to deny the rights guaranteed by that amendment to others goes against the spirit of the document. Once again, I am not talking legally, I am talking morally.

But speech that expresses the desire to deny the rights guaranteed by that amendment to others goes against the spirit of the document. Once again, I am not talking legally, I am talking morally.
Have I expressed the desire to deny someone his rights? I don't think I have. I'd appreciate it if you would find an instance where I did this.

Israel as a country itself is less than a hundred years old. Many people that live their or their did, came from Europe and in particular the Soviet Union. This is the one place that was officially theirs and sadly, the are surrounded by countries that want to destroy them. Israel is not a large country (land wise). If these people want to live in a muslim country, they have Jordan, Syria and Egypt around them. And peace will only come when they stop killing Israeli civilians, then Israel will feel no need to attack them in retaliation, if they do, then Israel is in the wrong. Until then, it's a back and forth battle. Wow, such a bloody mess over a little strip land on the Med :headbang: Indeed, as I said, people need to "smarten up" . Sometimes Israel does things they shouldn't but they should be able to have their own god damn country.
the problem here being we TOOK land from other people and GAVE it to the jews after world war twoish, just give palestine their own damn country and be done with it.

I'll preface the following point by saying that I don't get a lot of exposure to the European press other than BBC, but I do get some. Their coverage of the Israel/palestine conflict seems to me to be usually one sided in favor of the palestinians.

And the US media seems to me to be usually one sided in favour of Israel. Neither statement proves anything.

And stop with the suggestions of anti-Semitism. If you had actually lived in a European country for a significant period of time you'd realise how absurd a suggestion it is.

For the record:
criticisng the current Israeli regime != critising the state of Israel
criticising the state of Israel != criticising the idea of Zionism
criticising the idea of Zionism != anti-Semitism

To go from criticising the current regime to anti-Semitism requires a lot of leaps that are simply not justified.

Finally, the religion of the people of Israel simply is not a factor when Europeans I know consider the actions in the middle east. Indeed, those I know who condemn Israel also condemned Serbia in Kosovo and Indonesia in East Timor and continue to condemn Russia in Chechnya. The Israelis are not a unique example.

It seems to me the only people applying special rules are the Americans who support Israel. Or are you equally as nonchalant about what is going on in Chechnya?

In short, the fact that most Israelis are Jewish should not be a factor in judging the appropriateness of their government's actions. For either side.

And the US media seems to me to be usually one sided in favour of Israel. Neither statement proves anything.

And stop with the suggestions of anti-Semitism. If you had actually lived in a European country for a significant period of time you'd realise how absurd a suggestion it is.

For the record:
criticisng the current Israeli regime != critising the state of Israel
criticising the state of Israel != criticising the idea of Zionism
criticising the idea of Zionism != anti-Semitism

To go from criticising the current regime to anti-Semitism requires a lot of leaps that are simply not justified.

Finally, the religion of the people of Israel simply is not a factor when Europeans I know consider the actions in the middle east. Indeed, those I know who condemn Israel also condemned Serbia in Kosovo and Indonesia in East Timor and continue to condemn Russia in Chechnya. The Israelis are not a unique example.

It seems to me the only people applying special rules are the Americans who support Israel. Or are you equally as nonchalant about what is going on in Chechnya?

In short, the fact that most Israelis are Jewish should not be a factor in judging the appropriateness of their government's actions. For either side.
I have little sympathy for Chechens as well. If they would just fight the Russian army, then it's fine. They don't need to slaughter schoolchildren and take theaters full of people hostage. It accomplishes nothing.

hell if i know, us does fien with propaganda and spin and government control of the media
Oh, come on. I hate Bush, but there is NO WAY you can compare him to the PA.

Oh, come on. I hate Bush, but there is NO WAY you can compare him to the PA.
are you kidding me? the bush white house runs a propanda machine that would make joseph goebbels proud, geez look it even got him REELECTED after failing to stop the biggest terrorist hit in our history AND invading a country on an unfounded basis

are you kidding me? the bush white house runs a propanda machine that would make joseph goebbels proud, geez look it even got him REELECTED after failing to stop the biggest terrorist hit in our history AND invading a country on an unfounded basis
Actually, it was because any way you cut it, Kerry fucking sucked as a presidential candidate.

Actually, it was because any way you cut it, Kerry fucking sucked as a presidential candidate.
yeah - only if you were too .. not stupid, but rather not intelligent enough.. to get past all the bush lies and mud slinging and the obvious bullshit lies being thrown around by the swift boat vets against kerry- i mean for truth

I have little sympathy for Chechens as well. If they would just fight the Russian army, then it's fine. They don't need to slaughter schoolchildren and take theaters full of people hostage. It accomplishes nothing.

I think maybe we're now seeing where the difference in perception lies. Probably many in the US have a much more hostile attitude to any group that uses any terrorist methods, for understandable reasons. Many European countries, though, have had long standing terrorist problems of their own and so have a different attitude, having seen attempts to beat the terrorist groups fail and/or backfire.

Just out of curiosity what was your attitude towards the IRA?

I think maybe we're now seeing where the difference in perception lies. Probably many in the US have a much more hostile attitude to any group that uses any terrorist methods, for understandable reasons. Many European countries, though, have had long standing terrorist problems of their own and so have a different attitude, having seen attempts to beat the terrorist groups fail and/or backfire.

Just out of curiosity what was your attitude towards the IRA?
I didn't think about them much.

Israel as a country itself is less than a hundred years old.

And is composed of land taken from (amongst others) the Palestinians.

surrounded by countries that want to destroy them. Israel is not a large country (land wise).

Palestine is divided and occupied by a country that many believe wishes to destroy it. Palestine is not a large country. And your point is ...????

If these people want to live in a muslim country, they have Jordan, Syria and Egypt around them.

Why can there not be a Palestinian state?

And peace will only come when they stop killing Israeli civilians,

Both sides kill innocent civilians. And both are wrong to do so. Or is there a special exemption for one side only?

Sometimes Israel does things they shouldn't but they should be able to have their own god damn country.

And sometimes the Palestinians commit what can only be called atrocities. I am not for a moment defending their actions. But, do they not also deserve to "have their own god damn country". Or is there another special rule which applies here?

And is composed of land taken from (amongst others) the Palestinians.



Palestine is divided and occupied by a country that many believe wishes to destroy it. Palestine is not a large country. And your point is ...????



Why can there not be a Palestinian state?



Both sides kill innocent civilians. And both are wrong to do so. Or is there a special exemption for one side only?



And sometimes the Palestinians commit what can only be called atrocities. I am not for a moment defending their actions. But, do they not also deserve to "have their own god damn country". Or is there another special rule which applies here?
If all the palestinians want is their own country, why don't they take the west bank and gaza and live in peace. No, they keep insisting that they need right of return. For fuck's sake, they left so it would be easier for Israel's arab neighbors to exterminat the jews. I wouldn't let them back in. Israel shouldn't be forced to either.

Terrorist leaders don't exactly walk around in the open, all alone, with a target painted on their shirt. If it's the only way to get to him, and it may save a dozen Israeli lives, then Israel is justified in taking a half dozen palestinian lives.
By the same logic the Palestinians have the same right to strike back. If Isael has the "right" to take palestinian civilian lives to get to one guy they have the same right in taking Israeli civilian lives.

By the same logic the Palestinians have the same right to strike back. If Isael has the "right" to take palestinian civilian lives to get to one guy they have the same right in taking Israeli civilian lives.
How exactly does gunning down a mother and her daughters help the plaestinians? It only causes the Israelis to use more force against them. The palestinians target civilians almost exclusively.

I didn't think about them much.

So why do Palestinian terrorists raise your ire but Irish terrorists don't (or didn't)?

How exactly does gunning down a mother and her daughters help the plaestinians? It only causes the Israelis to use more force against them. The palestinians target civilians almost exclusively.
Oh but gunning down women and children indicriminatly just to get to one man is ok? How is that supposed to help either side?

So why do Palestinian terrorists raise your ire but Irish terrorists don't (or didn't)?
I just didn't get much news about it when I started paying attention to international politics.

Oh but gunning down women and children indicriminatly just to get to one man is ok? How is that supposed to help either side?
Like I said. If it keeps more people alive then it's a tradeoff that must be made.

Oh but gunning down women and children indicriminatly just to get to one man is ok? How is that supposed to help either side?
They don't do it indiscriminantly - the fact is that collateral damage can and will occur when an armed force engages the enemy

They don't do it indiscriminantly - the fact is that collateral damage can and will occur when an armed force engages the enemy
You make it sound like it happened on a battlefield instead of in the crowded streets of a city.

You make it sound like it happened on a battlefield instead of in the crowded streets of a city.
Sometimes the battlefield is a city.

Sometimes the battlefield is a city.
And sometimes it's an Israeli city.

And sometimes it's an Israeli city.
But the palestinians don't target the Israeli military or government often. They'd rather blow up a bus full of workers and students.

But the palestinians don't target the Israeli military or government often. They'd rather blow up a bus full of workers and students.
And Israel blows up entire buildings. Cause one occupant was in the Hamas, Al Aksa or whatever they are called.

And Israel blows up entire buildings. Cause one occupant was in the Hamas, Al Aksa or whatever they are called.
And that one person has been responsible for many deaths. If he is allowed to live he will cause many more. What's the palestinian's excuse for killing a bunch of laborers, students, janitors, etc.?

And Israel blows up entire buildings. Cause one occupant was in the Hamas, Al Aksa or whatever they are called.

Some of those buildings are bomb/rocket factories.

And that one person has been responsible for many deaths. If he is allowed to live he will cause many more.
They do it to punish the families of a suicide bomber. Him beeing dead is pretty much a given.
What's the palestinian's excuse for killing a bunch of laborers, students, janitors, etc.?
What's Israels excuse for making his wife, children and all others that happend to live their homeless?

Some of those buildings are bomb/rocket factories.
And I'm sure they are building WMD's there as well.

And I'm sure they are building WMD's there as well.

Ah, rhetoric. :headbang: I can see that there is no point in having a logical debate with you.

They do it to punish the families of a suicide bomber. Him beeing dead is pretty much a given.

What's Israels excuse for making his wife, children and all others that happend to live their homeless?
They bulldoze them or go in and place explosives. Those buildings aren't bombed from the clear blue sky while they are being occupied. It's a financial disincentive against families who raise their kids to be suicide bombers.

Ah, rhetoric. :headbang: I can see that there is no point in having a logical debate with you.
Ah. Cause I'm not backing Israel without questioning?

Ah. Cause I'm not backing Israel without questioning?
Because you are backing palestine without questioning.

Ah. Cause I'm not backing Israel without questioning?

No, because you are using a technique called rhetoric, which is a clear sign of pompous and bombastic ignorance.

They bulldoze them or go in and place explosives. Those buildings aren't bombed from the clear blue sky while they are being occupied. It's a financial disincentive against families who raise their kids to be suicide bombers.
Oh yes. That of course makes it all alright then. Cause they say the kids are raised to be bombers. :rolleyes: Whey not just kill them pre emptivly? Better yet. Whipe out all Palestinians. The US will have their backs at this. As always.

Oh yes. That of course makes it all alright then. Cause they say the kids are raised to be bombers. :rolleyes: Whey not just kill them pre emptivly? Better yet. Whipe out all Palestinians. The US will have their backs at this. As always.
It's a fact that there is a financial incentive to have suicide bombers in the family. Saddam used to pay the families of suicide bombers. Hamas still does. This takes away that financial incentive. If you doubt that some palestinian families encourage their children to be suicide bombers there are plenty of pictures of little kids in street protests and parades wearing suicide vests as a show of support for the terrorists. That's basically brainwashing kids to become weapons. Instead of what do you want to be when you grow up it's more like who do you want to kill when you blow up.

It's a fact that there is a financial incentive to have suicide bombers in the family. Saddam used to pay the families of suicide bombers. Hamas still does. This takes away that financial incentive. If you doubt that some palestinian families encourage their children to be suicide bombers there are plenty of pictures of little kids in street protests and parades wearing suicide vests as a show of support for the terrorists. That's basically brainwashing kids to become weapons. Instead of what do you want to be when you grow up it's more like who do you want to kill when you blow up.
oh please, i doubt they are going and blowing themselves up so their family can get money. well they are but let me explain

the israelis are fucking around and destroying peoples homes and are discriminating against the palestinians, why wouldnt the husbands go and blow themselves up for the cause and to get back at israel for bulldozing their home or work place or preventing them from working or living normally and get their family moeny they would sorely need?

paying the families doesnt encourage the suicide bombers, it is hatred and oppression encouraging it.

oh please, i doubt they are going and blowing themselves up so their family can get money. well they are but let me explain

the israelis are fucking around and destroying peoples homes and are discriminating against the palestinians, why wouldnt the husbands go and blow themselves up for the cause and to get back at israel for bulldozing their home or work place or preventing them from working or living normally and get their family moeny they would sorely need?

paying the families doesnt encourage the suicide bombers, it is hatred and oppression encouraging it.
Don't you think a person would be less likely to be a suicide bomber if he knew his family would lose their home as a consequence?

oh please, i doubt they are going and blowing themselves up so their family can get money. well they are but let me explain


CONTRADICT'D

Don't you think a person would be less likely to be a suicide bomber if he knew his family would lose their home as a consequence?
do you think they would care if they are going to lose their home anyway?

do you think they would care if they are going to lose their home anyway?
Houses aren't bulldozed randomly.

Houses aren't bulldozed randomly.
no, only if the israelis think they shouldnt be where they are

no, only if the israelis think they shouldnt be where they are
Actually it's if the Israelis beleive there's a weapons factory inside or if it was the home of a terrorist.

Actually it's if the Israelis beleive there's a weapons factory inside or if it was the home of a terrorist.
suuuure, whatever you say

suuuure, whatever you say
No, you win. Israelis randomly destroy houses. They have nothing better to do. They just go around risking the lives of their soldiers and trying to provoke more terrorism for fun.

I honestly can't beleive you're serious. Are you just trying to fuck with me?

No, you win. Israelis randomly destroy houses. They have nothing better to do. They just go around risking the lives of their soldiers and trying to provoke more terrorism for fun.

I honestly can't beleive you're serious. Are you just trying to fuck with me?
neither side is very rational, and it seems the israelis are the least rational of the two

oh theres a guy in this huge, closely grouped crowd we want to kill, hes a very prominent guy and wwe know who he is and where he is and can see him, but instead of shooting him in the head we are going to launch a missile at his car


well this palestinian settlement is in palestinian territory, but its too close to israel or something, so we are going to just bulldoze it and kill anyone if they dont move out of the way or stay in their homes

neither side is very rational, and it seems the israelis are the least rational of the two

oh theres a guy in this huge, closely grouped crowd we want to kill, hes a very prominent guy and wwe know who he is and where he is and can see him, but instead of shooting him in the head we are going to launch a missile at his car


well this palestinian settlement is in palestinian territory, but its too close to israel or something, so we are going to just bulldoze it and kill anyone if they dont move out of the way or stay in their homes
How do you get close enough to shoot him in the head and get away with your life? It's not that easy. Even the best sniper needs a line of sight to hit a target. In a city you have to be relatively close to get a line of sight. The hellfire missile can be launched from the safety of a helicopter miles away and is much more effective than a rifle fired from said helicopter.

And is composed of land taken from (amongst others) the Palestinians.



Palestine is divided and occupied by a country that many believe wishes to destroy it. Palestine is not a large country. And your point is ...????



Why can there not be a Palestinian state?



Both sides kill innocent civilians. And both are wrong to do so. Or is there a special exemption for one side only?



And sometimes the Palestinians commit what can only be called atrocities. I am not for a moment defending their actions. But, do they not also deserve to "have their own god damn country". Or is there another special rule which applies here?



If Israel doesn't deserve their own country, then Palestine doesn't. Also, people here seem to think that if we back Israel, we are some how immoral or evil. Believe me, Israel does shit, Palestine does shit. I personally am more Pro-Israel although that is for more personal reasons.

How do you get close enough to shoot him in the head and get away with your life? It's not that easy. Even the best sniper needs a line of sight to hit a target. In a city you have to be relatively close to get a line of sight. The hellfire missile can be launched from the safety of a helicopter miles away and is much more effective than a rifle fired from said helicopter.
irrelevant, these peopel dont give a fuck any more, they COULD have used a sniper and killed him, instead they just launch a missile into a mass of people. both sides stopped giving a damn years ago and no one should try to be defending EITHER side, palestine OR israel, the only fix is to just give palestine their own damn country, that would stfu alot of crap.

irrelevant, these peopel dont give a fuck any more, they COULD have used a sniper and killed him, instead they just launch a missile into a mass of people. both sides stopped giving a damn years ago and no one should try to be defending EITHER side, palestine OR israel, the only fix is to just give palestine their own damn country, that would stfu alot of crap.
I don't think they want their own damn country. I think they want Israel.

I don't think they want their own damn country. I think they want Israel.
is that some magic excuse for denying them a country on some part of the land stripped from them to give to the jews?

is that some magic excuse for denying them a country on some part of the land stripped from them to give to the jews?
I have no problem with them taking the west bank and gaza. I just don't think they want to settle for that. They want the whole thing in my opinion.

I don't think they want their own damn country. I think they want Israel.

Given who occupies who, who has the refugee camps and who the settlements, it rather looks much more like Israel wants to keep Palestine.

Why not just try letting both have their own country?

Seems more like a way to achieve peace.

And that is what we want at the end of the day, isn't it?

I don't think they want their own damn country. I think they want Israel.

Given who occupies who, who has the refugee camps and who the settlements, it rather looks much more like Israel wants to keep Palestine.

Why not just try letting both have their own country?

Seems more like a way to achieve peace.

And that is what we want at the end of the day, isn't it?

My solution is simple ...

There are more Jews in New York than there are in Israel. Give the Palestinians Israel and give the Jews New York.

Everybody wins!

I have no problem with them taking the west bank and gaza. I just don't think they want to settle for that. They want the whole thing in my opinion.

And "your opinion" is based on what ?

Something that you dreamed up to suit your argument?

Every peace proposal made commences with the right of the Palestinians to have their own state.

And it is peace that is the desired outcome is it not?

Given who occupies who, who has the refugee camps and who the settlements, it rather looks much more like Israel wants to keep Palestine.

Why not just try letting both have their own country?

Seems more like a way to achieve peace.

And that is what we want at the end of the day, isn't it?
Some people on both sides don't want peace. They want victory.

And "your opinion" is based on what ?

Something that you dreamed up to suit your argument?

Every peace proposal made commences with the right of the Palestinians to have their own state.

And it is peace that is the desired outcome is it not?
Based on their insistance that any peace must include right of return which would let them gain control of Israel through demographics.

My solution is simple ...

There are more Jews in New York than there are in Israel. Give the Palestinians Israel and give the Jews New York.

Everybody wins!
City or state?

City or state?


I'm sure he means city. Rural New York (State) is pretty light on them I believe.

Based on their insistance that any peace must include right of return which would let them gain control of Israel through demographics.

So you in effect support "ethnic cleansing" ?

So you in effect support "ethnic cleansing" ?
No, I support the existance of a Jewish state.

I'm sure he means city. Rural New York (State) is pretty light on them I believe.
Well if they're just getting the city we should throw in Long Island too. The city's too crowded as it stands now.

Well to get back to the demographics thread, yes Israel is screwed. The only reason Israel doesn’t annex the occupied territories, is that the Arabs would have close to an electoral majority now, if you add the nearly 900,000 Arab Israeli citizens who have an average age of 18, and are about to have a massive baby boom.

The population of Arab Israeli citizens, and I'm not talking the occupied territories but those eligible to vote in Israel, has grown nine fold since the founding of Israel with out the help of immigration. That's just in fifty seven years. In another fifty years they'll be approaching electoral majority. The Jewish population is only 4,740,000 according to the latest numbers I've seen.

I keep telling you people who are arguing on both sides of this issue it just doesn't matter. As the Arab population approaches equity, Jewish emigration will increase and hasten the slide to total Arab control.

No, I support the existance of a Jewish state.

Whereas those who would really like peace and an end to the conflict recognise that the only thing that will end this conflict is a political solution that ends up with both an Israeli and a Palestinian state.

Or do you have some other means of ending the conflict?

Or is that not the desired objective here?

Whereas those who would really like peace and an end to the conflict recognise that the only thing that will end this conflict is a political solution that ends up with both an Israeli and a Palestinian state.

Or do you have some other means of ending the conflict?

Or is that not the desired objective here?
I have no problem with a palestinian state as long as the Jewish state continues to exist and remains secure.
What did you think? Do I come off as one of those evangelical christians who want to hasten armageddon or something?

City or state?

Why not both? Gotta have some room to spread out, ya know. Besides, not giving the Jews the Catskills would be damn near blasphemy ... not to mention the Hamptons.

Why not both? Gotta have some room to spread out, ya know. Besides, not giving the Jews the Catskills would be damn near blasphemy ... not to mention the Hamptons.
Or we could just give the Palestinians Arizona. On second thought, no. I'd prefer to keep them an ocean away.

I have no problem with a palestinian state as long as the Jewish state continues to exist and remains secure.
What did you think? Do I come off as one of those evangelical christians who want to hasten armageddon or something?

No, just as someone who only argues one side of a conflict.

The situation will, as I have said, only be resolved by a political solution that gives a state to both sides.

I find some of the actions of both sides to be dreadful.

And am disappointed that the announced Bush "peace iniative" has disappeared without trace. But not really surprised.

No, just as someone who only argues one side of a conflict.

The situation will, as I have said, only be resolved by a political solution that gives a state to both sides.

I find some of the actions of both sides to be dreadful.

And am disappointed that the announced Bush "peace iniative" has disappeared without trace. But not really surprised.
Well it hardly makes sense to argue both sides. I don't have a split personality.

Or we could just give the Palestinians Arizona. On second thought, no. I'd prefer to keep them an ocean away.

Oh, c'mon now ... Palestinians are not that bad. How many have you personally met? I know and speak with on a regular basis 5 Palestinians - 2 of whom come to my house regularly and my children love them - with me being a Jew and not one of them saying anything ugly or rude to me.

Yes, they were quite please when I embraced Islam, but it didn't change my relationship with these friends in any way. They were my friends before, they are still my friends now - unlike 100% of the Christians and Pagans I know, who haven't said a word to me since my conversion and avoid me like I'm covered in fire breathing ticks.

Meh ... doesn't matter.

Why not both? Gotta have some room to spread out, ya know. Besides, not giving the Jews the Catskills would be damn near blasphemy ... not to mention the Hamptons.



I declare that New York State be re-named The Israeli State of New York.

So you in effect support "ethnic cleansing" ?

NON SEQUITUR'D

I declare that New York State be re-named The Israeli State of New York.
And unlike the arab nations' treatment of the palestinians, New Jersey will gladly accept the former residents of New York as citizens.

Well it hardly makes sense to argue both sides. I don't have a split personality.

Or a balanced viewpoint.

Or a balanced viewpoint.
What's a balanced viewpoint? Must I insist that the Israelis' hands are just as dirty as the palestinians even if it doesn't look that way to me?

Or we could just give the Palestinians Arizona. On second thought, no. I'd prefer to keep them an ocean away.
give them north dakota, no one lives there

give them north dakota, no one lives there
American Indians do. What are you going to do, force them off the last bit of land they still hold?

American Indians do. What are you going to do, force them off the last bit of land they still hold?
indian reservations are mostly in oklahoma, and north dakota is big and fucking empty, palestinians wouldnt need that much

indian reservations are mostly in oklahoma, and north dakota is big and fucking empty, palestinians wouldnt need that much
Wouldn't it make more sense to give it to the Indians then? The palestinians are used to a hot arid environment.

What's a balanced viewpoint? Must I insist that the Israelis' hands are just as dirty as the palestinians even if it doesn't look that way to me?

Until you can learn to look at conflict objectively and from both sides there is no point in discussing it with you.

And until it is resolved peacefully, innocents from both sides will continue to suffer.

But that is not as important as your viewpoint, is it? And plays no part in your thinking anyway.

You can put the Palestinians in Saskatchewan, it's bigger than any US state and all it's residents, including aboriginals are leaving within the next 5 years or less.

Until you can learn to look at conflict objectively and from both sides there is no point in discussing it with you.

And until it is resolved peacefully, innocents from both sides will continue to suffer.

But that is not as important as your viewpoint, is it? And plays no part in your thinking anyway.
There's no point in discussing it with me? Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm not being objective. I've looked at the facts available to me and come to my conclusion.

You can put the Palestinians in Saskatchewan, it's bigger than any US state and all it's residents, including aboriginals are leaving within the next 5 years or less.
Just how much money would it cost to build a wall across the US/Canadian border in the event the palestinians were given saskatchewan?

Until you can learn to look at conflict objectively and from both sides there is no point in discussing it with you.

And until it is resolved peacefully, innocents from both sides will continue to suffer.

But that is not as important as your viewpoint, is it? And plays no part in your thinking anyway.

AD HOMINEM'D

Just how much money would it cost to build a wall across the US/Canadian border in the event the palestinians were given saskatchewan?



Build a wall around the provinces borders, it would be cheaper. They'll all end up living in the far southeastern part because it's the only relatively warm part.

let me start by saying that the palestinians deserve their own state, whatever happened to Wilson's 14 points? to the declaration of Human Rights? self-determination is meant to be a right respected internationally. now i know that it would be too naive to beleive it is guarateed everywhere but not going to get into tibet etc. these people have been robbed of their homes, their jobs, their lives. who has the right to do that? i dont support the existence of an isreali state. how can they simply claim it is their god-given land and move in?
i mean firstly, a significant amount of today's jewish population originated not from isreal, but from russia. back in the day, one of the Russian kings converted to jeudism and so all of his people had to, at least officially, follow suit. yet somehow they belong in the middle east...of all the spots to pick! as some ppl said, new york is much more fitting.
and as to
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drunk commies
Or we could just give the Palestinians Arizona. On second thought, no. I'd prefer to keep them an ocean away.

what, do you think they are somehow lesser than you or something? the palestinians are people just like us, but in a very different situation. although i in no way vindicate teh suicide bombings, we must ask what has driven these people to do such a thing? what is the cause of this tragic effect? what these people want is to have a safe home, one they know will not be bulldozed by the patented D-12 catepillars (house-sized bulldozers used to flatten builings in theoccupied territories).
to be able to once again work and earn a stable income, which has been greatly hindered by the numerous isreali trasportation blocks.
to know that their children will get home safetly.

to finish i want to relate a story, mainly for all those who may beleive the isrealis have no or little blood on their hands:

a few weeks ago, a 9-year-old girl was walking home, unfortunately she got confused and wandered onto one of the many Restricted Areas, guared by isreali soldiers. these change frequently and it is quite understandable that the little girl had lost her way. from the watchtower, two privates and a sergeant spotted her. the privates thought to just let her be as it was clearly visible she was lost and petrified, however, the sergeant was ardent that she not go unpunished. no, he shot her in the leg. after she fell to the ground in pain, he walked over and fired, not one, but seven more shots into her little body.
he was soon promoted.

let me start by saying that the palestinians deserve their own state, whatever happened to Wilson's 14 points? to the declaration of Human Rights? self-determination is meant to be a right respected internationally. now i know that it would be too naive to beleive it is guarateed everywhere but not going to get into tibet etc. these people have been robbed of their homes, their jobs, their lives. who has the right to do that? i dont support the existence of an isreali state. how can they simply claim it is their god-given land and move in?
i mean firstly, a significant amount of today's jewish population originated not from isreal, but from russia. back in the day, one of the Russian kings converted to jeudism and so all of his people had to, at least officially, follow suit. yet somehow they belong in the middle east...of all the spots to pick! as some ppl said, new york is much more fitting.
and as to
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drunk commies
Or we could just give the Palestinians Arizona. On second thought, no. I'd prefer to keep them an ocean away.

what, do you think they are somehow lesser than you or something? the palestinians are people just like us, but in a very different situation. although i in no way vindicate teh suicide bombings, we must ask what has driven these people to do such a thing? what is the cause of this tragic effect? what these people want is to have a safe home, one they know will not be bulldozed by the patented D-12 catepillars (house-sized bulldozers used to flatten builings in theoccupied territories).
to be able to once again work and earn a stable income, which has been greatly hindered by the numerous isreali trasportation blocks.
to know that their children will get home safetly.

to finish i want to relate a story, mainly for all those who may beleive the isrealis have no or little blood on their hands:

a few weeks ago, a 9-year-old girl was walking home, unfortunately she got confused and wandered onto one of the many Restricted Areas, guared by isreali soldiers. these change frequently and it is quite understandable that the little girl had lost her way. from the watchtower, two privates and a sergeant spotted her. the privates thought to just let her be as it was clearly visible she was lost and petrified, however, the sergeant was ardent that she not go unpunished. no, he shot her in the leg. after she fell to the ground in pain, he walked over and fired, not one, but seven more shots into her little body.
he was soon promoted.


Hate the sergant for being an asshole but not the others, if as you say the did not see any reason to harm her.

well yeah i dont hate isrealis as a rule, its useless to generalize, this was just one example. and it was interesting to note he was promoted no?
i mean there are those who, in isreal, oppose the occupation, those conscience objectors are now doing jail time...
further, almost just by living there one supports the occupation as they apparently believe that land is theirs.
many foreigners travel to what should be palestine to help protest against the occupation and help protect the refugees.
one of these was a british university student. she travelled there and met her end while peacefully protesting. a home that housed a large family was found to somehow be a threat and ordered to be bulldozed. the familiy and she joined hands in the bulldozers path. it did not slow. the family fled as teh bulldozer neared reletlessly so that only she and a young boy remained. at the last moment she told him to leave, while her body was crushed along with the family's home
then again one could say they were lucky, some recieve little or no warning and meet their end still inside the house, some have seen their children die in the backseat, an isreale bullet passed through her head.
its a constant tragedy, for all involved, it just seem sthat one side, armed with D-12 Catepillars, apache helicopters and smart bombs (which too often manage to miss the proper target), funded, mostly unbeknowestly, by american taxpayers, with billions of dollars, and especially since they are the invaders, is more at fault.