NationStates Jolt Archive


There is no good fight but the fight for freedom (WARNING: Long read)

Industrial Experiment
15-01-2005, 11:00
In the last several months, especially in the last couple weeks, I have drifted from my real feelings. I have gone after the structure to fulfill my ideals, instead of concentrating on the ideals themselves. Long ago I told myself, rightly, that a man cannot know what needs to be done to make him happy until it is already done; this applies to many walks of life, life itself being the greatest one. In the end, I believe the people of the world need to be happy. The only sound axiom I can arrive at to make sure everyone is happy is to grant them the freedom they need to pursue their own ends.

Thus, I throw out my old beliefs in socialism, I would rather a man have the freedom to earn his own dollar than have the things he doesn't want or need given to him for free. But then I must also throw out capitalism, for such a utopian system is open to great abuses cannot guaruntee happiness for all forever. What does this leave me?

Well, it's really quite simple. I know I am already happy in today's world, but I also know many people are not. In the end, I can trace the feelings of these unhappy people to very abuses of the very system I have just thrown out. This seems to only prove my thoughts, but I must continue to think.

If socialism, especially extreme socialism, represents the absolute control of an economy and very little economic freedom, then the only possible opposite for this is capitalism. But, you say, you have thrown out capitalism as a utopian dream too vulnerable to be considered reality. The only way I can respond is with a time honored quote:

"Free trade can never be truely free unless it is also fair trade"

Thus, we arrive at Adam Smith's original precepts about capitalism, that the system would be self-regulating according to the whims of the people. Of course, in the modern world, the average person is not entirely intelligent enough to participate in this idea of an invisible, regulating hand. Now, unexpectedly, I run across the second axiom I now wish to use: available, preferably free education.

However, even this ideal has a problem in the question of "Who will provide this?". Of course, the first mention will not doubt go to the government. But, you might say, is not the government inherently corrupt, untrustable? Not so, say I, not so. Here are two very good quotes that are all the answer there is for the question asked:

"Founding Fathers Quotes

Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. "

The American Declaration of Independence

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States."

Noah Webster, Founding Father of the United States of America

These two quotes, in the end, strike upon the greatest principle of governance: the government only ever rules with the consent of the governed. Simplistically, there're more of us than there are of them.

However, why not take this a step further? Why make the "them" go away? In today's day and age of communications technology, it would be quite simple to provide the means of every man and woman of voting age to be able to vote on any issue that were to come up. This brings along the third axiom: absolute political freedom in the form of direct vote democracy.

While the logistics of setting up such a system would be quite formidible, once in place, it would fulfill one of the greatests criterion of all time, "A government of the people shall not perish from this Earth". It would, in essence, be invincible to the normal corruption of every other government in the world.

But this casual sentence brings up another issue: the world. It's quite well and simple ot provide the needed consumer knowledge to create the utopian capitalist system of Smith's dreams and skirt corruption in the government via a direct democracy in the United States, but there is a whole six billion odd other people in the world who don't live here, and thus would not be happy. Moving a direct democratic government up to the world stage would create even larger logistical problems and would already amplify the problem of ignorant mob rule, something I will touch upon later.

Now, it is necassary for me to step aside a moment and explain to you, the reader, my original reason for creating this topic. My intent, at least in the beginning, was to reaffirm my ardent pacifist views of the world via several very hard hitting quotes about the great crime against humanity that is war. However, I went off on a tanget rather early on that has branched out quite a bit to be a complete analysis of my philosophies on life.

Regardless, this is the point in the topic where I encounter a contradiction of the original intent and an explaination of the title.

I believe, in the end, that no war is a good war. No war is a war worth fighting, except for one. The revolution, the overthrowing of one's opressor and the grasping of one's right to happiness and freedom. However, even this war is a war that saddens me, "Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime". This quote, from Ernest Hemingway for those who are curious, personifies my feelings about war to a T.

However, there is another quote that also seems to show the apparent contradiction in my views.


"Better to fight for something than live for nothing."

General George S. Patton

For one human to shed the blood of another human is always wrong, no matter what, but sometimes it is a necessary evil. If it is the overthrow of a tyrant by the oppressed masses, then they must fight their fight.

This puts into scope the problem I face. For the world, for the majority of humanity to be free to pursue their own happiness, then war seems almost unaviodable, especially in our world of dictators and genocides. I find it hard to reconcile my views with foriegn intervention in the form of a democracy warring against a dictator, I feel only the oppressed can truely be the ones to rise up against their so-called "leader".

But, in the end, I do not think it is possible to accomplish the uniting of the world without resorting to war; a war for freedom is still a war, and still a crime, but there is nothing else that can be done. This is the fourth, and most reluctuant, axiom: the necessary fight for the freedom of the world's people.

You say, though, that what happens after this is accomplished? Once the entire world is one big direct democracy? What happens when the minority becomes disallusioned with the decisions of the majority, simply because the majority is so different form the minority?

The only possible answer is the the abolishment of comlicated law and the simplification of what we need to ban. In the end, the only thing that man really needs to be rid of are the things that impede someone's search for happiness. Muder, assault, other violence, theft, racism, all the great threats to a man's life, freedom, and search for happiness. This is the fifth axiom: the establishment of limits on even the government of the people, for the majority is not always correct.

The end result of all this, it would seem, is a world that is one step from anarchy, but full enough of people who are well enough educated to avoid being duped by the likes of the massive corporations which, in truth, wouldn't exist in such a world, but all the people are happy simply because they can do anything they need to do to achieve that happiness.

This is my view of the perfect world.

I am a true liberal.

Judge me.
BlatantSillyness
15-01-2005, 11:08
Judge me.
Ok , but not until after we see you in the swimwear section of the pageant.
Lacadaemon
15-01-2005, 11:23
Maybe you could go a step further, and just let other people work out their own destiny, instead of starting a global war for democracy.

Also direct democracy doesn't work: Look at homeowners associations. You need to seperate the people from political power at all possible costs.
Armed Bookworms
15-01-2005, 15:59
Read this : http://www.webscription.net/10.1125/Baen/0743471792/0743471792___1.htm

I promise you'll like it. Of course, all the UN sucking bastards won't, but such is life. :D
Eutrusca
15-01-2005, 16:05
Of course, in the modern world, the average person is not entirely intelligent enough to participate in this idea of an invisible, regulating hand.
NOTE TO CHESS SQUARE: THIS is the very thing I am talking about when I speak of the arrogance of elitists. EDIT: And this is just as bad - "You need to seperate the people from political power at all possible costs."

The thinking goes: "You are obviously too stupid to know what is best for you, so I, the highly educated intellectual, am going to take charge of your government and decide FOR you what you really need."

MOST LIBERALS AND OTHER LEFTISTS DO NOT TRUST THE PEOPLE!
Chess Squares
15-01-2005, 16:21
i mustve missed something in government class, but i dont recall noah webster being a founding father

and current day, it doesnt take an uprising from the government to subdue and control the people, look at nazi germany, look at current day america. people are so dumb as to be convinced losing their freedoms is a good thing and the people in support of bearing arms and fighting tyranny are the first to support it and last to realise what the hell is going on.

"Those willing to give up a bit of liberty for temprorary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, a REAL Founding Father
Taka
15-01-2005, 16:23
The problem with dirrect democracy is that it tends to lead to Tyrany by the majority. Besides the infeasability of such a system, a small minority, say 51% of the population could dictate the lives of 49% of the population. . . a situation that I hope never comes to pass. A better system would be one that allows the people a more dirrect voice to thier representatives, but a political system that forces reprasentatives to come to a concentual and mutualy agreeable position on all topics. No more would you have one party blocking anouther while the dominate party simply tries to force it's agenda down the minoritys throat, rather, both would be forced to come to agreement in the middle. I must disagree with you slightly on war as well, as War has been a driving force for all of humanity for the entirty of our existance. It is something which we moraly stand very firmly against, but can not, and for many reasons, should not ever stop. Technology, wealth, power, and freedom come in the aftermaths of war, albeit at a terrible price. It is a military drive for improvement that has led to the avalibility of computers that can fit onto your lap. It was in the fires of war that antibiotics were brought into full use. It is the eternal struggle of man against man, that brings out both our best and our darkest of hours.
Superpower07
15-01-2005, 16:23
"Those willing to give up a bit of liberty for temprorary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, a REAL Founding Father
I love this quote!

IE, you said you are a liberal - do you mean it in the sense of a 'classical liberal'?
Chess Squares
15-01-2005, 16:24
MOST LIBERALS AND OTHER LEFTISTS DO NOT TRUST THE PEOPLE!
i think ill go quote several founding fathers saying the people cannot be trusted, give me a bit though ill edit after i look up the quotes, why do you think we DONT have a direct democracy, and as the people are the government as well, that is the reason for the checks and balances, the framers and founding fathers were far more intelligent than you, your buddies and most anyone else today: neither the government NOR THE PEOPLE can be trusted

edit: A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine. -- Thomas Jefferson
Eutrusca
15-01-2005, 16:34
I love this quote!

IE, you said you are a liberal - do you mean it in the sense of a 'classical liberal'?
What happened to your statement that "Skapedro is my hero?" Don't tell me you've suddenly turned chicken on us! :D
Superpower07
15-01-2005, 16:35
What happened to your statement that "Skapedro is my hero?" Don't tell me you've suddenly turned chicken on us! :D
What happened to it? It's still in my profile! The guy is awesome, if not crazy :D
Keruvalia
15-01-2005, 16:39
the framers and founding fathers were far more intelligent than you

Damn fine looking, too ...

http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/images/jm4.gif

:D
Eutrusca
15-01-2005, 16:39
What happened to it? It's still in my profile! The guy is awesome, if not crazy :D
Hmmm. It was in your post above but is no longer. Strange. Could Jolt be acting up???
Pershikia
15-01-2005, 16:40
i think ill go quote several founding fathers saying the people cannot be trusted, give me a bit though ill edit after i look up the quotes, why do you think we DONT have a direct democracy, and as the people are the government as well, that is the reason for the checks and balances, the framers and founding fathers were far more intelligent than you, your buddies and most anyone else today: neither the government NOR THE PEOPLE can be trusted

edit: A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine. -- Thomas Jefferson

And of course the holy text of the Founding fathers can't be wrong!
Chess Squares
15-01-2005, 16:45
And of course the holy text of the Founding fathers can't be wrong!
if he wants to insult liberals and "leftists" for not trusting the people i honestly believe he should move as the people who made this government did not believe the people could be trusted as far as you could throw them, nor did they trust government
Eutrusca
15-01-2005, 16:54
if he wants to insult liberals and "leftists" for not trusting the people i honestly believe he should move as the people who made this government did not believe the people could be trusted as far as you could throw them, nor did they trust government
Quite frankly, I don't trust ANYone I haven't learned a lot about. I retain a very healthy skepticism about any government and those who run it. There are many, many so-called "conservatives" I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw them. One of the primary reasons I tend to post more about some liberals and other leftists on here is that they tend to predominate ... or at least dominate the discussions.

Just so you know, I despise arrogance in almost any form, which is another reason for me to almost totally dispise Hollywood. The thinking there is very similar to that of some in government, although based more on money and popularity rather than power: "My fans love me. I'm filthy rich. I must be something great, so anything I say about any subject is like words from a God!"
Chess Squares
15-01-2005, 17:10
Quite frankly, I don't trust ANYone I haven't learned a lot about. I retain a very healthy skepticism about any government and those who run it. There are many, many so-called "conservatives" I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw them. One of the primary reasons I tend to post more about some liberals and other leftists on here is that they tend to predominate ... or at least dominate the discussions.

Just so you know, I despise arrogance in almost any form, which is another reason for me to almost totally dispise Hollywood. The thinking there is very similar to that of some in government, although based more on money and popularity rather than power: "My fans love me. I'm filthy rich. I must be something great, so anything I say about any subject is like words from a God!"
You, sir, are a liar and a hypocrite and have no right to stand around preaching the errors of arrogance and superiority complexes while CONSTANTLY grouping all people who are liberals and leftists together and saying they are bad and evil without informed or explained basis and without provocation, you only say anything bad about conservatives when pressed for an intelligent retort, and you only say things about them in generalizations so as not to group the lot of them together.
BlatantSillyness
15-01-2005, 17:38
You, sir, are a liar and a hypocrite and have no right to stand around preaching the errors of arrogance and superiority complexes while CONSTANTLY grouping all people who are liberals and leftists together and saying they are bad and evil without informed or explained basis and without provocation, you only say anything bad about conservatives when pressed for an intelligent retort, and you only say things about them in generalizations so as not to group the lot of them together.
You tell him Chessie, why I heard a rumour that nasty man went and had lunch instead of voting what a hypocritical gasbag eh?
Armed Bookworms
15-01-2005, 17:45
You, sir, are a liar and a hypocrite and have no right to stand around preaching the errors of arrogance and superiority complexes while CONSTANTLY grouping all people who are liberals and leftists together and saying they are bad and evil without informed or explained basis and without provocation, you only say anything bad about conservatives when pressed for an intelligent retort, and you only say things about them in generalizations so as not to group the lot of them together.
Noo, he just thinks they're all stupid bastards. Not all of them are bad or even inherently malicious.
Armed Bookworms
15-01-2005, 17:53
Read this : http://www.webscription.net/10.1125/Baen/0743471792/0743471792___1.htm

I promise you'll like it. Of course, all the UN sucking bastards won't, but such is life. :D
A few quotes in the book:

"If a man neglects to enforce his rights, he cannot complain if, after a while, the law follows his example."

—Oliver Wendell Holmes

"I would say that my position is not too far from that of Ayn Rand's; that I would like to see government reduced to no more than internal police and courts, external armed forces—with the other matters handled otherwise. I'm sick of the way the government sticks its nose into everything, now."

—Robert A. Heinlein, as quoted by J.
Neil Schulman in The Robert Heinlein
Interview and Other Heinleiniana

"The essence of war is violence. Moderation in war is imbecility."

—Admiral Sir John A. Fisher

"Prostitution involves sex and free enterprise. Which of these are you opposed to?"

—Joseph A. Hauptman

"There are those who don't understand military rituals. Some even ridicule them. I feel pity for those people."

—Sergeant Mel Butler, US Army

"Democracy is based on the assumption that a million men are wiser than one man. How's that again? I missed something.

"Autocracy is based on the assumption that one man is wiser than a million men. Let's play that over again, too. Who decides?"

—Robert A. Heinlein, in Time Enough for Love

"Human nature is bad. Good is a human product . . . A warped piece of wood must be steamed and forced before it is made straight; a metal blade must be put to the whetstone before it becomes sharp. Since the nature of people is bad, to become corrected they must be taught by teachers and to be orderly they must acquire ritual and moral principles."

—Sun Tzu

"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property . . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."

—Thomas Paine

" . . . the most expensive thing in the world is a second-best military establishment, good but not good enough to win."

—Robert A. Heinlein,
"The Happy Days Ahead"
in Expanded Universe

"People in large masses may as well be sheep. Their collective intelligence drops to that of the weakest-minded member of the group. They bleat, they panic and are easily herded to safety, or to the slaughter."

—Alan Gunn

"The limitation of tyrants is the endurance of those they oppose."

—Frederick Douglass

"The real destroyer of the liberties of the people is he who spreads among them bounties, donations and benefits."

—Plutarch

"The enemy of my friend, he is my enemy. The friend of my enemy, he is my enemy. But the enemy of my enemy, he is my friend."

—Arab proverb

"It doesn't require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires to people's minds."

—Samuel Adams