NationStates Jolt Archive

I was just wondering that. If the Japense never atkked Pearl Harbour then would have the U.s entered WW2?? How would the world be today if the Japs never attked us? Of course the USSR was doing a good job of beating off the Germans but if the japense decided to help out and come from behind Russia threw china... So many questions

I was just wondering that. If the Japense never atkked Pearl Harbour then would have the U.s entered WW2?? How would the world be today if the Japs never attked us? Of course the USSR was doing a good job of beating off the Germans but if the japense decided to help out and come from behind Russia threw china... So many questions
Germany declared war on the US, not the other way around.

Didn't the Germans declare war on the US after PH?

Yeah but only because we declared war on the Japs.

Germany declared war on the US, not the other way around.

Ah nuts

Yeah but only because we declared war on the Japs.
Japan attacked us first. Von Ribbentrop even told Hitler that, because Japan was the agressor, Germany didn't have to declare war on America.

They didnt have to but they were allies with the Japs so they didnt want to risk losing that alliance by not declaring war on the U.S>

Yeah but only because we declared war on the Japs.

I believe the way it went was that the attack at Pearl Harbour took place, then Japan declared war on the US, and then Germany had to follow suit.

IIRC it was a communication in breakdowns that lead to the attack taking place before the declaration of war from Japan.

They didnt have to but they were allies with the Japs so they didnt want to risk losing that alliance by not declaring war on the U.S>
Japan didn't declare war on the USSR when Germany attacked...

Well maybee Japan was still expanding in China.

I was just wondering that. If the Japense never atkked Pearl Harbour then would have the U.s entered WW2??

I think a Japanese/US conflict at that time was pretty much inevitable: the Japanese would not have been able to form their East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere if the US had remained the dominant naval power in the Pacific. Even if the attack on Pearl Harbour hadn't taken place, then I believe the Japanese would have either attacked elsewhere, or sought some kind of pretext for declaring war on the US so as to avenge some imaginary sleight.

Well maybee Japan was still expanding in China.
And Germany was fully engaged in the USSR, and to a lesser extent Africa, by December of 1941.

Germany screwed over Germany by declaring war on the US. Although Roosevelt might have attacked Germany anyway.

I think if the Germans hadn't decided, "hey! Those lousy Yanks just declared war on our friends that Japs, let's get 'em!" they could have got away without incurring the wrath of the Americans...

i believe the japanese believed they had very limited times tables to acheive victory in the pacific. i know after pearl harbor they believed they had only a certain period of time to acheive victory and negotiate peace before american industrial production would simply overwhelmed them.

they may also have believed(i'm not sure) that they needed to attack before the us began to ramp up military production, which they may have believed the us was already beginning to do.

They should have waited for German victory then attacked Pearl Harbour and had the Germans go after east coast of the US...

Okay, so here's the story:

Japan signed a non-agression treaty with Russia in 1939.

Japan joined the Axis in 1940. This allowed them to take things like French Indo-China from Gremany's enemies.

Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, and the declaration of war was a few hours late getting delivered. So we were "offically" notified about the time that the attack was ending, rather than just before, which was the plan.

The US reciprocates with a declaration of war with Japan on the 8th.

Germany and Italy, for what ever reason (soldarity?), declares war on the 10th.

The US gives them a declaration of war on the 11th.

Yes, but was the German and Italian declaration of war necessary?

I think the Germans should have let the Italisn make fools of themselves then marched on Italy without declaring war on the Americans, and saying that they are doing this to help the Americans...

They should have waited for German victory then attacked Pearl Harbour and had the Germans go after east coast of the US...
i doubt the german were really interested in a transatlantic war with the us if they could avoid it. they would certainly have needed to secure bases in latin america before they could even have seriously considered it. that all might well have taken a decade or more if the germans had been interested, far longer than the japanese were willing to wait, far longer than the us would have been willing to sit around and allow the nazis to prepare for.

i doubt the german were really interested in a transatlantic war with the us if they could avoid it. they would certainly have needed to secure bases in latin america before they could even have seriously considered it. that all might well have taken a decade or more if the germans had been interested, far longer than the japanese were willing to wait, far longer than the us would have been willing to sit around and allow the nazis to prepare for.
You make a good point, but I do think that the Japanese should have waited until they could be guaranteed full German support...

Hitler had wanted to declare war on the U.S. for a long time, but he was (justifiably) worried that declaring war would bring the wrath of the U.S. to his doorstep. After the U.S. declared war on Japan, Hitler, thinking they would be too busy in the Pacific theater to fight him, delared war on the U.S.

You make a good point, but I do think that the Japanese should have waited until they could be guaranteed full German support...

Something I have never been clear on is just how much the European Axis and Japan supported each other in physical matters of even intelligence: the two theatres of war seem very separate. I know that Italian POWs ended up in Australia working on farms at one point, but where they came from I have absolutely no idea.

Anyhow... was the bracketting of Japan with the European Axis just a result of a piece of paper, or was there actual solid co-operation between them at any point?

i doubt the german were really interested in a transatlantic war with the us if they could avoid it. they would certainly have needed to secure bases in latin america before they could even have seriously considered it. that all might well have taken a decade or more if the germans had been interested, far longer than the japanese were willing to wait, far longer than the us would have been willing to sit around and allow the nazis to prepare for.

I think the Germans, if they had won the war in Europe and the US had not intervened, might have developed nuclear weapons before the US could have. After which they would have probably bullied the US into becoming cooperative, rather then outright conquering it. (actually they might have done this without nukes too.) Or at least drive America into isolation.

Or maybe the US would have even had a rise of nazism of its own after a German victory without their direct interference. (but of course with lots of indirect interference.)

They might have still tried to conquer America later on though. Either way German victory in WWII would have been a bad thing for the US too really. I mean, they were the Nazi's. Its not as though they could have been trusted to leave the US unmolested had America been content to let them do as they pleased, in case they had had that choice.

I know that Italian POWs ended up in Australia working on farms at one point, but where they came from I have absolutely no idea.
From Italy most likely. :p

Anyhow... was the bracketting of Japan with the European Axis just a result of a piece of paper, or was there actual solid co-operation between them at any point?
It was mostly paper. There were visits from both sides to another. And some cooperation in terms of trading technology I think. Not sure. Couldn't have been much. But not much more then that.

If Germany had not invaded Russia, the entire Nazi army would probably have defeated the U.S.

If Germany had not invaded Russia, the entire Nazi army would probably have defeated the U.S.
They'd have to be able to get to the US, first.

If Germany had not invaded Russia, the entire Nazi army would probably have defeated the U.S.
If Hitlers aids had woken him the night of D-day, Rommel could have used the tank reserves to repel the invasion before the Allies had gained a foothold.

I was just wondering that. If the Japense never atkked Pearl Harbour then would have the U.s entered WW2?? How would the world be today if the Japs never attked us? Of course the USSR was doing a good job of beating off the Germans but if the japense decided to help out and come from behind Russia threw china... So many questions
about 3 week before pearl harbour a German U-boat almost sunk a US Battle Ship. aswell the US was more or less looking for a good reson to join the war, but were worried about civil unrest often caused and a war the people do not back. so the US would have found some reson sooner or later.

But if Japan didn't attack pearl habour Japan might have never join the war because pearl harbour was attacked on the same day HongKong was. Japan was try to stop the USA for send supply ships to Brittish bases. They knew this would pull USA into the war but they underestamanted American's abilty to repair the sunk ships and Japan was winning the war until the battle of midway, where they lost most of there carriers.

Interesting little fact, WWII is not formally over yet, Japan and Russia still have nor signed a peace treaty.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ja.html
(at bottom of page)

Re: Italian POWs in Australia

From Italy most likely. :p

Yeah, it appears that they were just shipped over from North Africa as a cheap labour force to toil the fields and farms of Australia. I did do some research on this a few years ago on the net and nothing came up, but now I'm getting a flood of results. Times change.

Interesting little fact, WWII is not formally over yet, Japan and Russia still have nor signed a peace treaty.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ja.html
(at bottom of page)

Complicated, no doubt, by the fact that the USSR no longer exists.

about 3 week before pearl harbour a German U-boat almost sunk a US Battle Ship.

The US lost no Battleships to German or Japanese submarines durig the Second World War, the only two permanently lost were the Utah and Arizona, both at Pearl Harbor (the former not even really being a battleship at the time).

aswell the US was more or less looking for a good reson to join the war, but were worried about civil unrest often caused and a war the people do not back. so the US would have found some reson sooner or later.

But this would have led to an almost certain abandonement of the Germany First Policy, not to mention it would take months of political negotiating to get the US to join the war against Germany (though it was probably inevitable).

But if Japan didn't attack pearl habour Japan might have never join the war because pearl harbour was attacked on the same day HongKong was.

As were several smaller garrisons and the Philippines

Japan was try to stop the USA for send supply ships to Brittish bases.

Given the British were heavily concentrated in Europe, they really weren't too worried about the British and their bases (only Malaya, and they already had a force to deal with that). The Japanese relied on the colonial powers in the region (including the USA) for most of it's industrialized supplies, especially oil and many metals. They did not wish to be held at the whim of these powers, so they decided to grab these resources themselves, unfortunately there was still a powerful frce in the Pacific, the United States, with the Philippines jutting in like a knife aimed at Japan's heart.

They knew this would pull USA into the war but they underestamanted American's abilty to repair the sunk ships and Japan was winning the war until the battle of midway, where they lost most of there carriers.

Actually, they had been checked at Coral Sea, which prevented 2 of their carriers from joining the First Air Fleet.

Complicated, no doubt, by the fact that the USSR no longer exists.

I don't think it matters much, since technically, wars are carried over unless both powers agree it's over. One section of Britain is still at war with Russia, when Britain declared war on Russia in the Crimean War, the decleration of war listed England, Scotland, so on and so on, and one particular small county. The Peace treaty (Treaty of Paris) however, restated all names except this one, so technically, this small county has been at war with Russia since the 1850's.

If Hitlers aids had woken him the night of D-day, Rommel could have used the tank reserves to repel the invasion before the Allies had gained a foothold.

I don't think we need to rehash the Normandy campaign in this thread, some might ask exactly what divisions would move, considering only three might be able to make it in some form of order over the next week, the rest would be decimated by Allied control of the air. However, this is OT, so if you wish to continue, please start another thread.

here's what really happened, although i dont know the exact dates:
-Germany started fighting with USSR after Germany invaded Poland
-Britan defended itself from frequent bombing from german-occupied France
-Germany tells Japan to attack Pearl Harbor, thus causing us to declare war on Japan, and in turn, Germany.
-We invade Normandy and Italy and total war is underway

im in freaking high school and i know more than most of u tards, besides Bodies w/o Organs and possibly Robbopolis

why do i associate with such riff-raff :confused:

Given the British were heavily concentrated in Europe, they really weren't too worried about the British and their bases (only Malaya, and they already had a force to deal with that).


And the British in Malaya were hideously ill-supplied, and this seems likely to have been known to the Japanese.

IIRC the correspondence between Malaya and the UK went something like this:

Percival: We have only 10,000 rounds. What should we do?

Churchill: Fire them at the enemy.

There is still a modicum of hostility directed towards Churchill for his apparent abandonment of the British in Malaya.

I don't think we need to rehash the Normandy campaign in this thread, some might ask exactly what divisions would move, considering only three might be able to make it in some form of order over the next week, the rest would be decimated by Allied control of the air. However, this is OT, so if you wish to continue, please start another thread.
I simply replied to the invasion of Russia. Don't try and tell me what to do.

If Germany had not invaded Russia, the entire Nazi army would probably have defeated the U.S.

In what? Rowboats? Not only did the US possess manpower resources only slightly smaller than the Soviets, their war production was several times larger (about 50% of the entire world's GDP in 1944), so I'm wondering a bit on how they would win? Besides, Russia would eventually go to war with Germany at some point, those two ideologies simply could not exist beside each other.

I simply replied to the invasion of Russia. Don't try and tell me what to do.

I didn't, I asked politely, a concept foreign on some, but I digress, forget I said anything.

here's what really happened, although i dont know the exact dates:
-Germany started fighting with USSR after Germany invaded Poland
-Britan defended itself from frequent bombing from german-occupied France
-Germany tells Japan to attack Pearl Harbor, thus causing us to declare war on Japan, and in turn, Germany.
-We invade Normandy and Italy and total war is underway

im in freaking high school and i know more than most of u tards, besides Bodies w/o Organs and possibly Robbopolis

why do i associate with such riff-raff :confused:
Yeah. I can tell your still in high school.
-Germany started fighting with USSR after Germany invaded Poland
About 2 years inbetween.
-Germany tells Japan to attack Pearl Harbor, thus causing us to declare war on Japan, and in turn, Germany.
Germany told Japan to attack Pearl? And the US declared war on Germany?
-We invade Normandy and Italy and total war is underway
Total war had already begun long before.

-We invade Normandy and Italy and total war is underway

Well, actually Italy was invaded before Normandy.

You appear to have left out the North African campaign which lead into the Allied invasion of Italy, Operation Torch - the assault on Vichy French held Morroco and Algeria, which has a certain importance, if only as it marks the actual entry of US fighting forces on the ground to the European theatre.

im in freaking high school and i know more than most of u tards, besides Bodies w/o Organs and possibly Robbopolis

Ur... I'll take that as a compliment. The Sword and Sheild is someone to listen to on these matters.

-Germany started fighting with USSR after Germany invaded Poland

Poland was invaded on September 1, 1939 by Germany, in cooperation with the Red Army after September 18, 1939, and they split Poland according to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Germany launched Operation Barborossa (the invasion of Russia) on June 22, 1941.

-Germany tells Japan to attack Pearl Harbor, thus causing us to declare war on Japan, and in turn, Germany.

Germany never told Japan to attack, in fact, a point of interest is that Hitler was never told of any of the plans of the Japanese yet still declared war. And Japan declared war on the US first, as did the Germans, the US declared war on both nations a day after each one DOW'd the US.

-We invade Normandy and Italy and total war is underway

Total War had been underway on the Eastern Front since 1941 on a scale that dwarfs the Western fighting, and the Italian invasion was in 1943, and the Normandy/Provence invasion was in 1944, years after the Eastern Front had already suffered massive amounts of blood.

I don't think it matters much, since technically, wars are carried over unless both powers agree it's over.

It was an actual 'this situation is complicated, no doubt, by the fact that...' comment, rather than a snarky one, although it would have been very easy to take it as such.

One section of Britain is still at war with Russia...

Yes, I know this story, but I can't remember which part it is. Somewhere on the East coast?

I don't think it matters much, since technically, wars are carried over unless both powers agree it's over. One section of Britain is still at war with Russia, when Britain declared war on Russia in the Crimean War, the decleration of war listed England, Scotland, so on and so on, and one particular small county. The Peace treaty (Treaty of Paris) however, restated all names except this one, so technically, this small county has been at war with Russia since the 1850's.
Russia doesn't stand a chance. Just a few more years and they'll be singing God save the Queen!!!! :D

It was an actual 'this situation is complicated, no doubt, by the fact that...' comment, rather than a snarky one, although it would have been very easy to take it as such.



Yes, I know this story, but I can't remember which part it is. Somewhere on the East coast?
Its berwick dude.

Yes, I know this story, but I can't remember which part it is. Somewhere on the East coast?

Berwick-upon-Tweed, in between Scotland and England.

The German-Japanese alliance during WWII was more an alliance of convenience than an ideological unification (how can two nations be TRUE allies when they both believe that the other is racially inferior?) The Japanese had already made up their minds to start a war with some western power years before Pearl Harbor. They had their own set of ambitions, which were completely independant of those of Germany. The Japanese eventually decided to attack the U.S. mainly because America was the only western power that had a strong presence in the Pacific at the time. Japan was going to attack America no matter what, even if it guaranteed defeat for Germany.
The concept of Japan and Germany attacking the U.S.S.R. simultaneously might sound like a good idea at first; but when you look at more closely it seems less so. First of all, such an attack would be a logistical and strategic nightmare. They would have to either transport troops and supplies nearly 1/3 of the way around the world with very few cities or military resources along the way, or attempt to transport their fleet through arctic waters and attempt an amphibious invasion, while leaving Japan relatively defenseless. And if such an attack were to fail, it would be extremely difficult to retreat back to the home islands and regroup, and would weaken their hold on already occupied territory in the Pacific. On the other hand, if the attack succeeded, who would get to control Russia? Might Russia become to Japan and Germany what Germany ended up being to Britain/U.S. and U.S.S.R?
That's why I think the question of whether or not Japan ended up screwing over Germany isn't very relevant; yes, they probably did; but it's not like attacking the U.S. was a mistake that cost the Axis the war. Rather it was something that had been planned out long before the German-Japanese alliance.

A question I would like to pose for debate is this: would Britain and the U.S.S.R. still have won the war if Japan and Germany had never become allies?

I don't think it matters much, since technically, wars are carried over unless both powers agree it's over. One section of Britain is still at war with Russia, when Britain declared war on Russia in the Crimean War, the decleration of war listed England, Scotland, so on and so on, and one particular small county. The Peace treaty (Treaty of Paris) however, restated all names except this one, so technically, this small county has been at war with Russia since the 1850's

is it just me, or has the been a lot of treaties of Paris?

What no-one seems to have mentioned is that before Japan attacked Pearl Harbour, the US and GB were enforcing a naval oil blockade on Japan. Japan struck American and British bases and colonies because it was stuck like a rat in a corner. It was a case of a proud nation conceding to two colonial powers or fighting them. As for the German / Russian thing, the Soviet Union comes out of this with no credit or glory whatsoever, despite being the power that really finished Germany off. When Hitler attacked Poland, triggering war with Britain and France, he already had a nice non aggression pact with Stalin tucked in his belt. The Soviets then carved Poland up jointly with Germany. Stalin was quite happy to sit back and watch the Nazis overun Western Europe, sure that he was safe from them. He continued to supply Hitler with oil right up to the German attack on the Soviet Union. Then as the Nazis stormed towards Moscow, he bleated and begged Churchill to open up a second front in the west. The British were making plans and launching hit and run attacks on the continent as well as bombing Germany but Churchill knew that without US aid, it would be years before a 'Commonwealth' invasion force could be prepared. What he did do was send convoys to Murmansk and Archangel to supply the Soviets with equipment that the british sorely needed themselves. Several ships and many British lives were lost in those convoys to our 'ally'. Add to that, Stalin never declared war on Japan until the last months when it was beaten, then he declared war on Japan and invaded a few northern Japanese islands, One at least, Russia still refuses to hand back. Not a glorious war record. One more thing. After WW1, when germany was forbidden all sorts of military equipment and France insisted on reparations (where the US and Britain did not), Stalin allowed an embryonic Lufftwaffe (sp) to grow and practice deep inside Russian territory. You can make a case for saying that the French insistance on financial reparations from a deeply broken Germany and Stalins willing assistance to Hitler during the 30's was a major factor in Hitler being willing and able to start the war.

IMO, Germany felt almost obliged to declare war on the United States, Hitler thought the Japanese would imedialty launch an invasion after Pearl Harbor becuase statistics show that if the Japanese had launched an invasion 4 days after Pearl Harbor, the US woudnt have been able to stop them until the Midwest Region. Hitler I guess put to much faith in the Japs abilitys.

Plus Hitler wasnt exactly the smartest guy, most of his Generals were angry he declared war on the US, more were even madder he broke his pact with Russia, (IMO his stupidest mistake).

Berwick-upon-Tweed, in between Scotland and England.

It's no longer at war with Russia. They signed a peace treaty in the nineties.

is it just me, or has the been a lot of treaties of Paris?

It certainly seems to be the place for peace treaties, the Spanish-American War was ended by the Treaty of Paris IIRC. And Versailles, not too far from Paris, has two major treaties to its own name, the one that ended the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-71, and the Great War of 1914-18. Rheims was also the sight of the formal surrender of the German Army to the Allies, although the procedure was repeated a few days later for the Soviets. France just seems to be the place to end wars.

IMO, Germany felt almost obliged to declare war on the United States, Hitler thought the Japanese would imedialty launch an invasion after Pearl Harbor becuase statistics show that if the Japanese had launched an invasion 4 days after Pearl Harbor, the US woudnt have been able to stop them until the Midwest Region. Hitler I guess put to much faith in the Japs abilitys.

Plus Hitler wasnt exactly the smartest guy, most of his Generals were angry he declared war on the US, more were even madder he broke his pact with Russia, (IMO his stupidest mistake).

I don't think he expected the Japanese to invade the Continental US, except for scared civilians and politicians, almost everyone privy to actual strength estimates of both sides realized such an invasion was impossible, even if it was December 8th. I think it was more of a case of him hoping for Japan to be the Mexico of 1917, sap away US forces from being deployed against Germany, and besides, it finally let his U-boats go indiscrimately against the Americans, I just don't think he anticipated the Europe First strategy.

What no-one seems to have mentioned is that before Japan attacked Pearl Harbour, the US and GB were enforcing a naval oil blockade on Japan. Japan struck American and British bases and colonies because it was stuck like a rat in a corner.

I mentioned it, but it was also not the only thing they embargoed and controlled, things like tin were quite important as well.

He continued to supply Hitler with oil right up to the German attack on the Soviet Union.

In fact, a shipment of material crossed the border on the early hours of June 22, the last shipment obviously.

Then as the Nazis stormed towards Moscow, he bleated and begged Churchill to open up a second front in the west. The British were making plans and launching hit and run attacks on the continent as well as bombing Germany but Churchill knew that without US aid, it would be years before a 'Commonwealth' invasion force could be prepared.

Not only that, he was deathly afraid of repeating the bloody struggle of the Great War, and not very keen on attacking the Continent, plus his reputation with amphibious operations was not very good. He was more keen on a periphereal strategy, nipping at the corners of the Nazi Empire, it took Marshall and Roosevelts strong-arming to keep them fixated on Western Europe.

Add to that, Stalin never declared war on Japan until the last months when it was beaten, then he declared war on Japan and invaded a few northern Japanese islands, One at least, Russia still refuses to hand back.

Not the last months, the last week, facing the heavily depleted and demoralized Kwantung Army, and recapturing Sakhalin (which they refuse to hand back, the southern half anyway, that Japan captured in 1905).

One more thing. After WW1, when germany was forbidden all sorts of military equipment and France insisted on reparations (where the US and Britain did not),

The US did not insist on reperations, but Britain did, albeit not quite as feircely as Clemenceau.

damn, crackers, some of u are smart (i.e. only sword/shield and bodies w/o organs)
i admit i was wrong about the fact that US declared war on germany, and that germany told japan to attack pearl harbor
it was only a layman's history ,so i ommitted dates and relitave chronological distance between individual events, and by total war i meant that US was engaged in both fronts

I apologise for any malcontent my post may have caused anyone (NOT!!!)

and anyone who disapproves of my existence, u will be :) :sniper: or :mp5:

and Zackaroth needs to take some spelling lessons

damn, crackers, some of u are smart (i.e. only sword/shield and bodies w/o organs)
i admit i was wrong about the fact that US declared war on germany, and that germany told japan to attack pearl harbor
it was only a layman's history ,so i ommitted dates and relitave chronological distance between individual events, and by total war i meant that US was engaged in both fronts
Layman's history? More like dumbass's history.
I apologise for any malcontent my post may have caused anyone (NOT!!!)

and anyone who disapproves of my existence, u will be :) :sniper: or :mp5:

and Zackaroth needs to take some spelling lessons
so do you.