NationStates Jolt Archive

How does Fascism in the 20th Century develope and grow in turmoil?

The three main Fascist states during the last century where most notably Spain, Italy and Germany. But how did these states come to be? What sort of things needed to happen for these states to survive and thrive?

For instance Italy was unhappy with it's territorial gains after world war one. They dreamed of a new "Roman Empire". Countless government failed to take drastic action and fell. Mussolini was asked by the king to take hold of the government. Didn't the king know this would have drastic consequences? I think in fact he did know that but Mussolini at the time seemed like the last chance for a great Italian state to be restored.

The Stock market crash of 1929 also lead to the rise of Facism in Germany for instance. Things were very bad just after the war but soon became better after Germany was given financial help from the United States. Things appeared to be going well once more and Communism and Facism didn't seem to hold as much sway as they once did. But after the economic collapse things once again slid into what they had once been and Hitler triumphed in the end.

For instance Italy was unhappy with it's territorial gains after world war one. They dreamed of a new "Roman Empire". Countless government failed to take drastic action and fell. Mussolini was asked by the king to take hold of the government. Didn't the king know this would have drastic consequences? I think in fact he did know that but Mussolini at the time seemed like the last chance for a great Italian state to be restored.
Mussolini kind off forced the kings hand with his march on Rome.

The Stock market crash of 1929 also lead to the rise of Facism in Germany for instance. Things were very bad just after the war but soon became better after Germany was given financial help from the United States. Things appeared to be going well once more and Communism and Facism didn't seem to hold as much sway as they once did. But after the economic collapse things once again slid into what they had once been and Hitler triumphed in the end.
Financial aid? What financial aid?

I would recommend you read Erich Fromm's Escape from Freedom.

Financial aid as in loans. Many countries were unwilling to give Germany loans but the United States was. When there economy crashed Germany was in the loop as well and was hit even harder than the U.S was.

Financial aid? What financial aid?
US loans. Brilliant system really, we loan Germany the money, Germany uses the loan money to pay the French, British, Italians, etc. and the F, B, I, etc. in turn pay the US back their war debts with the money. It was a very creative money making scheme for the US government.

But yeah I wanna hear your ideas on why it developed and thrived in the 20th century specifically.

Financial aid as in loans. Many countries were unwilling to give Germany loans but the United States was. When there economy crashed Germany was in the loop as well and was hit even harder than the U.S was.
Ah, you mean in the early 1920s after the hyper inflation?

US loans. Brilliant system really, we loan Germany the money, Germany uses the loan money to pay the French, British, Italians, etc. and the F, B, I, etc. in turn pay the US back their war debts with the money. It was a very creative money making scheme for the US government.

It's based on the I'll loan you this money so you can pay of your debt to so and so. So he can pay of his debt to so and so. The principle was based on the idea that a profit would be made. When a profit wasn't made this whole system collapsed.

Ah, you mean in the early 1920s after the hyper inflation?

Yes. For instance a loaf of bread cost 100,000 marks. Many people would be payed once in the morning and once in the afternoon because by then the price of food had gone up by several thousand marks in the space of several hours.

But yeah I wanna hear your ideas on why it developed and thrived in the 20th century specifically.
Because the people in Italy were disillisioned with successive governments after World War One who repeatedly failed to get them the terretorial gains they believed they had been promised, and couldnt stop the socialist strikes. What was it called...the Socialist "rising" in 1920 (?) where the Fascists were the ones who kept essential services going?

I dont remember it so well, i havent looked at the rise of fascism in Italy for about 2 years

The three main Fascist states during the last century where most notably Spain, Italy and Germany. But how did these states come to be? What sort of things needed to happen for these states to survive and thrive?
from what i can tell in germany: economic disparity, fear mongering, and convincing speakers.

all we need in america is a big economic bombshell, and if china pulls it little stick out that is holding up the dollar, all the boulders are going down the hill

edit: i forgot "terrorism"

US loans. Brilliant system really, we loan Germany the money, Germany uses the loan money to pay the French, British, Italians, etc. and the F, B, I, etc. in turn pay the US back their war debts with the money. It was a very creative money making scheme for the US government.
Oh that. I wouldn't call that financial aid.

I would recommend you read Erich Fromm's Escape from Freedom.

I've heard that's a good book. Have you heard of Paris 1919? Also another good book on the treaty with germany and splitting up Europe, Africa, Asia etc.

Yes. For instance a loaf of bread cost 100,000 marks. Many people would be payed once in the morning and once in the afternoon because by then the price of food had gone up by several thousand marks in the space of several hours.
Yea...

i remember of hearing of a basket that was full of hundreds of thousands of marks being stolen and the marks being tipped out because they were worthless

But yeah I wanna hear your ideas on why it developed and thrived in the 20th century specifically.
Well, in the twentieth century we saw several of the old Monarchies failing, namely the Hohenzollerns and the Hapsburgs. And without these monarchies to provide a paternal figure of sorts the people of these nations turned towards another type of strong father figure.

I'm not saying that nations need a father figure, but to remove one so entrenched and commonly recognized as those dynastys so rapidly was a fairly traumatic occurence.

That plus the worldwide depression led to an environment in which no hope in the normal sense existed, so people turned to what they saw as strength as a way to restore hope and as such, bam! We have the environment for fascism to spread.

Oh that. I wouldn't call that financial aid.
We call that financial aid for college students in the US, why can't we call it aid in this case?

Oh that. I wouldn't call that financial aid.

Well what would you call it? I think if you a country loans another country money I would call that finacial aid.

Yes. For instance a loaf of bread cost 100,000 marks. Many people would be payed once in the morning and once in the afternoon because by then the price of food had gone up by several thousand marks in the space of several hours.
100,000 marks would have been cheap. My great grandfather brought home bills of 1000,000 marks and later even more each day. As soon as he was home he and my great grandmother went to spend it all.

I think fascism developed because of the existence of a state of pathological collective narcissism, the groups involved in the creation and support of fascist states made a very clear decision to become what Hannah Arent would call "evi"l. Whether this decision was made on a subconscious or fully conscious level or not is irrelevant.

Well what would you call it? I think if you a country loans another country money I would call that finacial aid.
I would call it what it was. A loan. Aid generaly is given freely without the expectation of ever getting it back.

Well, in the twentieth century we saw several of the old Monarchies failing, namely the Hohenzollerns and the Hapsburgs. And without these monarchies to provide a paternal figure of sorts the people of these nations turned towards another type of strong father figure.

I'm not saying that nations need a father figure, but to remove one so entrenched and commonly recognized as those dynastys so rapidly was a fairly traumatic occurence.

That plus the worldwide depression led to an environment in which no hope in the normal sense existed, so people turned to what they saw as strength as a way to restore hope and as such, bam! We have the environment for fascism to spread.

I very much agree. To remove something so fundamental to the European self and how they viewed themselves was very traumatic indeed. There was a vacum as well as much social and political unrest. So Communism and Fascism seeked to exploit these voids.

I would call it what it was. A loan. Aid generaly is given freely without the expectation of ever getting it back.

Ok well if you want to get into the nitty gritty of it then yes we shall call it a loan. I think though that Financial Aid is generally expected back ie. good faith, returning favor in time of need. etc.

I'm not saying that nations need a father figure, but to remove one so entrenched and commonly recognized as those dynastys so rapidly was a fairly traumatic occurence.
Hitler would have been overthrown by the military resistance if they had a symbol figure like the emperor to rally behind. Like what happened with Mussolini.

Another important thing to notice is that the allies began to realize that their system was too harsh on Germany, so the reparations plan was slowly changed (the Young Plan in 1930 http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/history/A0853157.html), and would have probably become more lenient as time went on and if Hitler hadn't come to power.

I think many people of of the defeated nations in World War One felt they had been ripped off by the Allied powers and hadn't been given a fair deal. Germany for instance had much of her land taken away in the name of self determination.

Italy who was allied with Germany and Austro-Hungary and later sided with the allies felt they hadn't been given a fair deal they wanted territory in what became Yugoslavia as well as land in North Africa. They felt disenfranchised and unfairly treated.

The idea of self determination was a good excuse for Hitler to use when invading territory he claimed for Germany. Ie. Polish corridor, Anschluss with Austria etc.

Another important thing to notice is that the allies began to realize that their system was too harsh on Germany, so the reparations plan was slowly changed (the Young Plan in 1930 http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/history/A0853157.html), and would have probably become more lenient as time went on and if Hitler hadn't come to power.
But the thing they didn't realise was that it wasn't just about the money.

Another important thing to notice is that the allies began to realize that their system was too harsh on Germany, so the reparations plan was slowly changed (the Young Plan in 1930 http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/history/A0853157.html), and would have probably become more lenient as time went on and if Hitler hadn't come to power.

A yes I almost forgot. What would have happend if Hitler or someone like minded hadn't had come to power. What would Europe be like?

But the thing they didn't realise was that it wasn't just about the money.

I think the money was a very important thing for them as large tracts of Belgium and norther France had been devastated but they realized that having a weak and helpless Germany wasn't in their best interestes when dealing with Communist rebelions and the like. We need to realise that these restrictions on Germany were extremly harsh. The financial aspects of it were never explained it was just expected that Germany would pay until the allies decided it was enough. Resources where taken away, land was taken away along with colonial ambitions in Africa. The war guilt clause was another sticking point. When the treaty was decided unpon they wanted to break Germany's back and have her never rise again. In time they would change this idea as I have already described.

I think the money was a very important thing for them as large tracts of Belgium and norther France had been devastated but they realized that having a weak and helpless Germany wasn't in their best interestes when dealing with Communist rebelions and the like. We need to realise that these restrictions on Germany were extremly harsh. The financial aspects of it were never explained it was just expected that Germany would pay until the allies decided it was enough. Resources where taken away, land was taken away along with colonial ambitions in Africa. The war guilt clause was another sticking point. When the treaty was decided unpon they wanted to break Germany's back and have her never rise again. In time they would change this idea as I have already described.
I meant for the Germans it wasn't just about the money.

I meant for the Germans it wasn't just about the money.

hahaha, wow I went through all that trouble to illustrate a point. Sorry about that. Well now we have my point lets hear yours.

hahaha, wow I went through all that trouble to illustrate a point. Sorry about that. Well now we have my point lets hear yours.
The loss of territory, national humiliation, limitation of the army, not beeing allowed to research planes and modern technology, loss of the colonies, having to take the blame for the war, losing control of the Ruhr area and the Saarland stung a lot more then the payments on it's own. Not that that wasn't important as well. But it wasn't the most important thing.

another interesting question about fascism is what relationship did it bear to the militarist nationist state of japan. were the japanese fascists under a different name, or were they something entirely different.

also how does fascism relate to peronism in argentina in the fifties.

a particularly politically loaded question would also be how does it relate to third world nationalist governments in general. any of these states looked to the soviet union for aid, but there actual political models were in many ways more fascist, especially the arab nationalists who had ties to the axies powers against their colonial masters(the allies) during ww2 and became virilently antsemetic after the creation of isreal(to the point of accepting and adopting much of the european antisemetic tracts which were considered discredited in the west and the communist blocs after ww2)

Look please stop going on about how Germany is Fascist.
Germany was National Socialist NOT Fascist.
Fascist Italy had Jewish members in it's ranks.
Fascist Italy wasnt founded any racial principles because they didnt care about race.

By strong national pride and forgetting the past (WWII).

Look please stop going on about how Germany is Fascist.
Germany was National Socialist NOT Fascist.
Fascist Italy had Jewish members in it's ranks.
Fascist Italy wasnt founded any racial principles because they didnt care about race.
They still cared about nationality though - it was just so long as you were an Italian it was alright. That was until Mussolini started sucking up to Hitler and brought in anti-Semitic legislation. Hitler's fascism was a different brand to Mussolini's, and they didn't have that much in common. But the basic militaristic, nationalistic elements were there with both of them.

Hitler came to power for many reasons, you can't just pin it all on one.There was the result of the First World War/Versailles and all those implications. There was the hyperinflation of the early 20s and the crash of 1929, the consequences being polarised politics and depression. There was the Nazi party itself, which was a formidable political machine by the mid 1920s. Hitler was very charismatic and won many over, kept the party from splitting along Nationalist/Socialist line or SA/moderate lines. There manouverings of the old conservatives helped Hitler into power undoubtably, particularly von Papen. Also the support of the public got Hitler into power ultimatly, without it he would never have been considered for Chancellor. Even when he was Chancellor Hitler still had to rely on the fortuatous Reichstag Fire of 1933, and the SA violence which was a reason for the Enabling Act.

I did an exam on this a few days ago, this is all I can remeber! :confused:

True, the Italians didnt uphold Race they upheld the state. The Italian people were happy under Fascist Rule, thousands of people still visit Mussolinis grave every year.
Fascist rule really wasnt that bad. The Italians didnt live in fear. They were happy people.

It was a real shame however that Mussolini joined Hitler.
He should have remained neutral like Franco did.
If Mussolini did remain neutral Fascist Italy would still be around today.

True, the Italians didnt uphold Race they upheld the state. The Italian people were happy under Fascist Rule, thousands of people still visit Mussolinis grave every year.
Fascist rule really wasnt that bad. The Italians didnt live in fear. They were happy people.

It was a real shame however that Mussolini joined Hitler.
He should have remained neutral like Franco did.
If Mussolini did remain neutral Fascist Italy would still be around today.
well mussolini was no coward(militarily incompetent perhaps), he fought with his allies and died with them(well actually he was torn apart limb from limb by a mob, perhaps the grandparents of those tomb visitors)