NationStates Jolt Archive

I was just wondering. Hopefully, this'll lead to a flame-free debate.

I'm pro-Israel.

Omg No Way!!!!1!! Isreeeaaaallll Suxorz 2 Da Maxorz~!!!!1!

I'm pro-Israel.
x2

pro...most definitely

Oh yeah! :D

I am half-Israeli, so I naturally feel allegiance. It is very disappointing with all the Europeans here, there is so much anti-Israeli sentiment. Israel has one friend and one friend only--this here US of A. I'm left-of-center in American politics, and right-of-center in Israeli politics, so it's a delicate balance.

Strong military, hot women, great beaches, what's not to like?

Plus, I admire any nation that restrains itself as much as they have in the last 58 years. I'd have probably started killing off mass numbers of heads of states in nearby nations were I one of them :)

Israelies are very brave and resilient people. They've gone through hell and high water, through thick and thin, and have not only survived, but thrived and prospered. In a hostile world where enemies abound and friends are few and far between, Israel has held its own. For that, I highly respect the nation and its people.

I'm pro-Israel too . . .

At this point my position has come 'round to something along the lines of pro-peace. People, Israeli and Palestinian, need to live, and there doesn't really seem to be the option of them living anywhere but where they are now.

I used to be fairly pro-Palestine (of the Said school), and I suppose I still lean that way. I have great hopes that the newly elected Palestinian government will be sensible. It'd be great if the Israeli military would stop acting in such as way as to drive people to horrible acts of terrorism. It would be great if the people of Palestine would realize that support for violence in response only leads to more violence on both sides (as many have). It would be great if suicide bombers would stop suicide bombing.

It would be great if everyone would grow up and get along, is I guess what I'm saying, in a horribly condescending and simplistic sense. Things are going kinda alright at the moment; hopefully this will continue.

Another pro-israeli here.

Very Pro-Israeli. I was stopped in Montreal by people angry about Israel and what they are doing in Palestine and I told them how I felt. You'd think they were looking at satan or a demon.

I support the Israelis. Not unquestioningly, but I do realize they aren't the ones who started the war.

While I disagree w/ some of their "blow up the infrastructure" style of attacks, I support Isreal and am also amazed at their restraint. Like the US, it's one of the countries that no matter what they do, they'll be attacked (directly or indirectly ) for it.

I am pro Israel, and the Mossad is badass.

Israel must survive at all costs. I am very much pro-Israel!

America must remain pro-Israeli, as two of the most hated nations on earth we need each other. God blessed Israel and America, thus we will be persecuted.

At this point my position has come 'round to something along the lines of pro-peace. People, Israeli and Palestinian, need to live, and there doesn't really seem to be the option of them living anywhere but where they are now.

I used to be fairly pro-Palestine (of the Said school), and I suppose I still lean that way. I have great hopes that the newly elected Palestinian government will be sensible. It'd be great if the Israeli military would stop acting in such as way as to drive people to horrible acts of terrorism. It would be great if the people of Palestine would realize that support for violence in response only leads to more violence on both sides (as many have). It would be great if suicide bombers would stop suicide bombing.

It would be great if everyone would grow up and get along, is I guess what I'm saying, in a horribly condescending and simplistic sense. Things are going kinda alright at the moment; hopefully this will continue.
How about the surrounding arab countries start accepting palestinian refugees, or how about the UN stops giving palestine a free ride?

You know, as a military buff, I must admit that I am more impressed by their success than anything else. I only wish the US got to fight like they do. In war, the Israelis have no qualms about using all necessary force. Unfortunately, America is unable to use the same force. Sigh. I'm pro-Israeli, because I just love the way they fight.

On a tangential note, I'd like to point out that in the Bible (yes, that stupid document of lies and false predictions that most of you hate) it says that peace will not come to Palestine until the end of days. So far, its been true. Damn, I gotta say I'm impressed. Like the Bible or not, its looks like its right on this one.

You know, as a military buff, I must admit that I am more impressed by their success than anything else. I only wish the US got to fight like they do. In war, the Israelis have no qualms about using all necessary force. Unfortunately, America is unable to use the same force. Sigh. I'm pro-Israeli, because I just love the way they fight.

Yes they are tough fighters. All of the wars they have had over the years, and the amount of success, is truely phenominal. We should just let them loose on Syria.


"Cry Havoc and let slip, the Dogs of War!"

I am neither pro nor anti ... guess I'm what you'd call "Israelindifferent".

They're there. They have the right to live in peace. I have no right to say otherwise. Same with Palestinians.

However, I am very anti-Minnesota.

However, I am very anti-Minnesota.

Thank you, thank you. :)

Yes they are tough fighters. All of the wars they have had over the years, and the amount of success, is truely phenominal. We should just let them loose on Syria.


Why bother? They would just get bitch-slapped back to Israel by Hezbollah (again). They let America do their fighting for them now.

And if the U.S.S.R. hated Israel, surely it can't be too bad, right? :D

I'm pro-Israel. Though this does mean that I hold the Israelis to a higher moral standard than, say, the Palestinians. If Israel does something I think is morally wrong I will not hesitate to make my feelings clear.

How about the surrounding arab countries start accepting palestinian refugees, or how about the UN stops giving palestine a free ride?

I'm not very well educated on the UN issue, so will leave that for somebody else to answer, or possibly I'll do some research and come back to it, time permitting :)

As to the first, other arab countries accepting refugees would be good, but that isn't a solution. Massive movements of peoples are problematic: ridiculously high cost in terms of money, human suffering etc.

More to the point, is it just or fair to force millions of people to either uproot or live in a hostile environment? The Israeli claim to the area is valid, and becoming more and more so everyday, but does that mean that Palestinians lose any right to live there? Their claim is certainly no less valid.

I support the Israeli state. Ever since the nation was created by the U.N, it's had to deal with shit that no one should have to put up with. Not only did they have to fight off pretty much every single Arab nation, but they kicked total ass.

Afterwards, the beaten aggressors have the nerve to complain that the land Israel currently occupies is illegal since they won it from their warlike neighbors. It's like a murderer complaining that he's an orphan since he killed his parents.

I'm not very well educated on the UN issue, so will leave that for somebody else to answer, or possibly I'll do some research and come back to it, time permitting :)

As to the first, other arab countries accepting refugees would be good, but that isn't a solution. Massive movements of peoples are problematic: ridiculously high cost in terms of money, human suffering etc.

Israel managed to do it beginning in 1947, and with much greater difficulty than the Arab states would have.


More to the point, is it just or fair to force millions of people to either uproot or live in a hostile environment?
Israel didn't force them to move, and the only people making it a "hostile environment" ARE the Arabs!

I support the Israeli state. Ever since the nation was created by the U.N, it's had to deal with shit that no one should have to put up with. Not only did they have to fight off pretty much every single Arab nation, but they kicked total ass.

Afterwards, the beaten aggressors have the nerve to complain that the land Israel currently occupies is illegal since they won it from their warlike neighbors. It's like a murderer complaining that he's an orphan since he killed his parents.

Can't wait to hear the lefties' response to this. :D

While I don't support it 100%, most of the time I agree with America's little sister . . . . eerr, I mean middle-eastern ally.

I'm not very well educated on the UN issue, so will leave that for somebody else to answer, or possibly I'll do some research and come back to it, time permitting :)

As to the first, other arab countries accepting refugees would be good, but that isn't a solution. Massive movements of peoples are problematic: ridiculously high cost in terms of money, human suffering etc.

More to the point, is it just or fair to force millions of people to either uproot or live in a hostile environment? The Israeli claim to the area is valid, and becoming more and more so everyday, but does that mean that Palestinians lose any right to live there? Their claim is certainly no less valid.
Many palestinians have tried to immigrate to another arab country, but they won't accept palestinian refugees because they want to put pressure on isreal, since they know they'd get their asses handed to them in an actual conflict.

I'm neither pro, nor anti.

It's no longer an issue of who's more right in the Palestine/Israel debate, so much as a matter of who's more wrong. I support neither, and it will stay that way until there is an affect on me.

Pro Isreal

I'm neither pro or anti, either. Both sides have screwed up, so neither of them deserve the land. It should be vacated and turned into a Buddhist holy land...or something.

Pro-Israel, Pro-Bush, and kept that way by the Second Amendment!

Pro-Israel.

Israel managed to do it beginning in 1947, and with much greater difficulty than the Arab states would have.

Yes, it was, by all accounts, hellish. It also took place over decades, before and after WWII.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#History)

Palestinians wouldn't be moving into hostile territory in quite the same way; the immense problems of integration faced by the Israelis would be less severe. But a quick, forced mass-migration would not be easy in any sense of the word.

Israel didn't force them to move, and the only people making it a "hostile environment" ARE the Arabs!

I disagree. The original aggressors were Arab, yes, but this is neither here nor there for the vast majority of people living in the region today. At this point, horrible things have been done by both sides, at all levels of responsibility; who started it is beside the point.

i guess im pro-isralie. i mean, you guys were there first, right? in realtion to a former statemnt, i am anti-american. this country is just not all its cracked up to be. :mad:

Many palestinians have tried to immigrate to another arab country, but they won't accept palestinian refugees because they want to put pressure on isreal, since they know they'd get their asses handed to them in an actual conflict.

Yes, the actions of the governments of many countries in the area are and have been despicable (<- not meant as a jab at Israel, although I just realized it could be read as one). Doesn't change the multitudes of more or less blameless people suffering during the conflict, nor validate the suffering on either side of it.

Even were other arab nations in the area to start accepting refugees (as they should), it won't solve the Israel/Palestine dispute, however. If the majority of Palestinians were willing and able to leave territory controlled by Israel, there wouldn't be a dispute in the first place.

i guess im pro-isralie. i mean, you guys were there first, right? in realtion to a former statemnt, i am anti-american. this country is just not all its cracked up to be. :mad:

Nah ... the Canaanites were there first. The Hebrews took it from them. But, then, you don't hear them complaining too much.

From what I understand Isreal needs the Palestinians as they make-up a large proportion of the workforce.

Isreal has the money and technology but Palestine has the manpower.

Isreal would not want the complete relocation of the Palestinian population (most of which Isreali friends have told me are reasonable an fun people) because it would impact too heavily on their economy.

Hence this is a reason why the Palestinians can still travel between Palestine and Isreal and the nut cases can get their backpack bombs on busses.

I am 100% behind Palestinian resistance groups such as Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa Martyr Brigades, Hamash, and Hezbollah. They are the modern day equivalent of the freedom fighters in 1776 in the American colonies, fighting for their land, for their liberties, for what is theirs, and for what they refuse to let others take from them.

I believe that the Palestinians are a people who are being oppressed, have been oppressed, and they are showing the world that you cannot hold down people forever, they will rise up. Forcing people to live worse than animals, it will not work for long.

You can kill them, defeat their fellow Islamic countries armies, you can bulldoze their homes, but you can't break their spirit. In the end, all you're left with is bodies and blood, you can't break their idea, their will, the idea of revolution lives on.

The only thing that will end their struggle is victory. Nothing can stop an idea, an idea is more dangerous than any army ever was.


The day will come, when Israel will be made to account for her atrocities, the white sex slave trade, the oppression of the native peoples, the mass murder of non-combatants, the ecstacy drug trade, the violations of more UN resolutions than Iraq and Afghanistan combined. The destruction of the USS Liberty, the spying on the USA, the pushing behind the scenes with their moles in the Pentagon, to agitate for the war with Iraq.


A nation built on lies will crumble to pieces when the truth finally comes out.

Proudly pro-Israel.
Am Yisrael Chai!!!

I am 100% behind Palestinian resistance groups such as Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa Martyr Brigades, Hamash, and Hezbollah. They are the modern day equivalent of the freedom fighters in 1776 in the American colonies, fighting for their land, for their liberties, for what is theirs, and for what they refuse to let others take from them.

I believe that the Palestinians are a people who are being oppressed, have been oppressed, and they are showing the world that you cannot hold down people forever, they will rise up. Forcing people to live worse than animals, it will not work for long.

You can kill them, defeat their fellow Islamic countries armies, you can bulldoze their homes, but you can't break their spirit. In the end, all you're left with is bodies and blood, you can't break their idea, their will, the idea of revolution lives on.

The only thing that will end their struggle is victory. Nothing can stop an idea, an idea is more dangerous than any army ever was.


The day will come, when Israel will be made to account for her atrocities, the white sex slave trade, the oppression of the native peoples, the mass murder of non-combatants, the ecstacy drug trade, the violations of more UN resolutions than Iraq and Afghanistan combined. The destruction of the USS Liberty, the spying on the USA, the pushing behind the scenes with their moles in the Pentagon, to agitate for the war with Iraq.


A nation built on lies will crumble to pieces when the truth finally comes out.

I see you've read "Masking Lack of Content Through Liberal Use of Vitriol and Rhetoric" as well. It's quite good, I must say.

There can be peace in the Middle East with Abbas in control, but the Palestinians are fully responsible for the lack of peace to this date. Barak offered 97% of the land sought by the Palestinians. Now the people who complain about the plan have no right to demonize Israel and Arafat didn't even offer a single counter-plan before calling off the talks. He could've possible gotten all 100% if he tried that, but he wanted to drive the Jews into the Sea as his predecesors tried unsuccessfully to their peril.

I am pro Israel, and the Mossad is badass.
Shin Bet :)

I see you've read "Masking Lack of Content Through Liberal Use of Vitriol and Rhetoric" as well. It's quite good, I must say.


Could not have said it better

Could not have said it better
I'm left-wing AND pro-Israel. They're not mutually exclusive. My dad was enlisted in the IDF during the Yom Kippur War, and he always votes Democrat. In the 2 Israeli elections he participated in, he voted for Avoda both times.

I'm not anti Israel but with Arab Israeli population reaching parity with the Jewish by the middle of the century you have to ask, "What is the point?".

This is why Abbas wants peace, the Palestinians need do nothing but let their Israeli relatives breed Israel in to non existence. They'll continue to 4 to 5 children in their teens, while Jewish Israelis have 2 in their late twenties and early thirties on average. By the end of this century Israel will either be an apartheid state or a Jewish ghetto.

I'm left-wing AND pro-Israel. They're not mutually exclusive. My dad was enlisted in the IDF during the Yom Kippur War, and he always votes Democrat. In the 2 Israeli elections he participated in, he voted for Avoda both times.

Of course you can be both. I'd say I am as well. But the stuff that Decisive Action posted isn't really conducive to a mutually acceptable solution.

There is no disputing that Israel belongs to the isaelis.....it has always been the seat of the jewish religion and it has always been the promised land for the jews....Jerusalem iswhere soloman's temple was.....the palestinians even want that for themselves.....the only reason the temple is gone is becasue the romans destroed it in the daesporea (sp)...the jews were sent across the world....they didn't choose to go.....romans occupied their land...when the roman empire left, jews already had found business other places and did not want to uproot and go back to a hostile land.....the muslims had claimed it for themselves and declared it a holy land.....ghey.....it was the jews first....jews have taken more crap than any people group ever has or ever will....i wish for their to be peace in the middle east but it will not happen until the antichrist comes and then it will merely be a false shadow of peace.....

Israel only "belongs" to the Israelis because we Jews killed the people who were there before us. We're the original genocidal maniacs and jihadists. Not a proud history. :(

In order for a conflict to exist and continue in such a fashion, there has to be a third party present between the two parties in conflict, stirring up the conflict. This third party is the source of the trouble between both sides, but someone over there needs to investigate to find out -- who is the third person keeping it stirred up, causing both sides continue to fight? This person has, as yet, gone unnoticed. I wish this individual would be located, for there will be no peace until this is done. This third party would be making bad statements to each side about the other.

By the way, I'm pro-people. This includes both the Israeli as well as the Palestinians.

I'm left-wing AND pro-Israel. They're not mutually exclusive. My dad was enlisted in the IDF during the Yom Kippur War, and he always votes Democrat. In the 2 Israeli elections he participated in, he voted for Avoda both times.

I think the LIBERAL was a reference to a large amount, not Left Liberal. Decisive Action seems to have a lot of pent-up frustration.

I was just wondering. Hopefully, this'll lead to a flame-free debate.

What's to debate?

Sorry about the confusion. Elsburytonia has the right idea.

I suppose one sticking point is the idea that it needs to be one or the other. By being slightly pro-Palestine, I'm in no way saying that I'm anti-Israel. I believe there can be no solution that doesn't involve the creation of a Palestinian state. I believe that there can be no solution that doesn't involve the preservation of the Israeli state.

Am I babbling about the obvious here, or is there disagreement from the many people here who are actually rational? (but thanks for your contribution, Decisive Action!)

Israel only "belongs" to the Israelis because we Jews killed the people who were there before us. We're the original genocidal maniacs and jihadists. Not a proud history. :(

Almost every race on earth has taken territory from another.

If we all went back from whenst we came Northern Europe, China and Africa would get crowded while South America, Australia and North America would get very lonely.

This is true. Though we could have tried sharing.

Actually if you read the history books most Arabs living in Palestine fled to neigboring Arab countries because Arab propoganda said the Jews would rape women, kill men, etc... When in fact the Jews did quite the opposite. They actually gave the Muslims equal rights, which is why there are 1.1 million Arabs who are Israeli citizens today.

By the way, after completely obsessing over the Israeli/Palestinian conflict for many years I'd have to say that Israel does most things right, and the people in my opinion are the nicest on earth.

Israel only "belongs" to the Israelis because we Jews killed the people who were there before us. We're the original genocidal maniacs and jihadists. Not a proud history. :(

If you are a jew...then you should know why you took it back....

Ahem.....Abraham left Ur (where he was living at the time) with his nephew lot and their families to the place that God had set apart for them (somewhere near modern day jerusalem most likely).....they settled....Abraham Begat Isaac, begat Jacob/Israel, who begat joseph and his brothers.....josephs jealous brothers sold him into slavery.....he went to egypt....was slave to captain of the guard (potipher)...potipher's wife tried to get joseph to sleep with her.....she faild becasue he was faithful to god and his master, potipher.....she lied about him raping her, and he got sent to prison....well..he interpreted the dreams of two of pharoah's servents.....then pharoah had a dream...the sent for joseph to interpret dreams...blah blah blah.....dreams meant 7 years of plenty and 7 years of famine....he became gov. of egypt and stockpiled food for the famine that was coming.....he had two sons (Ephraim and Manasseh). Joseph's brothers came to get food becasue of the famine, didn't realize it was joseph...he tricked them..bnlah blah blah..then joseph's brothers and families and their father all came to egypt to live......this was probably about 100-150 people.....well.....joseph's 2 sons and 10 of his brother became the tribes of israel......they stayed there for the enteirety of the famine...and were honored as the relatives/desendants of joseph for many years unti lthey were eventually slaves......then years later (probably about 150 years actually) moses took the israelites back to canaan (israel).....then Caleb and joshua led israel to retake their promised land....

in a nutshell....it belonged to the jews in the first place....

Almost every race on earth has taken territory from another.

If we all went back from whenst we came Northern Europe, China and Africa would get crowded while South America, Australia and North America would get very lonely.

I think we agree here. For better or for worse, Israel is where it is; the need and demand for a homeland was very real, and now that they're there, there's nothing to do but make the best of it. Whether or not it was a bright idea to locate it in the midst of a number of very hostile countries in the first place is moot.

Israel is probably the staunchest ally of the United States...naturally, I am PRO-Israel. Of course, the Bible also specifies that any one who does well by Israel also does well by God, so there's another god reason.

If you are a jew...then you should know why you took it back....

I do. Thanks for the update and all. Though I still maintain that we should have shared. It's not like population densities were skyrocketing way back when.

I don't really want this to turn into a theological debate though. So we'll leave it at that and agree to disagree perhaps?

As far as what you said about the point being moot now is concerned, that is valid. We can't kick either side out of that area so the both of them will have to learn to live together.

Actually if you read the history books most Arabs living in Palestine fled to neigboring Arab countries because Arab propoganda said the Jews would rape women, kill men, etc... When in fact the Jews did quite the opposite. They actually gave the Muslims equal rights, which is why there are 1.1 million Arabs who are Israeli citizens today.

By the way, after completely obsessing over the Israeli/Palestinian conflict for many years I'd have to say that Israel does most things right, and the people in my opinion are the nicest on earth.

Exactly! As I mentioned before the Arab birthrate is much higher than the Jewish birthrate and the Arabs will have political control of Israel in fifty years. That's fifty freaking years!

Oh hell, but don't mind me or reality just keep spinning in your little pro-anti circles. The real issue is what we are going to do with an increasingly oppressed Jewish population in Israel. Will the EU and America open immigration to the Jews?

I do. Thanks for the update and all.
Sry it was more for the other peeps in this thread..just in case...i could delve deeper into things not in the bible.....but i doubt everyone wants to hear that.....

There are too many people that define themselves as "pro-Israel" or "pro-palestinian". The issues are hugely contentious, but lots of young people (especially on campuses) tend to simply export intense animosity and confrontationalism across the world by adopting rigid and intense beliefs that they back up with a battery of out-of-context stats which they drop on anyone who dissagrees like a brick.
I define myself as a Zionist more than anything else, despite the dirty connotation the word has lately adopted. By Zionist I mean that I believe in Israel absolute right to exist, and for Jews to have a homeland where they're a majority. A Palestinian state is essential in this view.

Exactly! As I mentioned before the Arab birthrate is much higher than the Jewish birthrate and the Arabs will have political control of Israel in fifty years. That's fifty freaking years!

Oh hell, but don't mind me or reality just keep spinning in your little pro-anti circles. The real issue is what we are going to do with an increasingly oppressed Jewish population in Israel. Will the EU and America open immigration to the Jews?

I'm sure america will...but the EU is too....too.....idk....they have opec's dick up their ass...i know that much...but that isn't the point...the point is that they are anti anything that directly or indirectly has to do with the US so i doubt they will....

Actually if you read the history books most Arabs living in Palestine fled to neigboring Arab countries because Arab propoganda said the Jews would rape women, kill men, etc... When in fact the Jews did quite the opposite. They actually gave the Muslims equal rights, which is why there are 1.1 million Arabs who are Israeli citizens today.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

The Deir Yassin massacre took place following a battle in the town of Deir Yassin on April 9, 1948, during the Israeli War of Independence. The massacre occurred during Jewish attempts to break the siege of Jerusalem (imposed by raids of Arab irregular forces upon the sole Tel-Aviv-Jerusalem road).

Between 107 and 120 Palestinian civilians were killed (many sources originally reported many more deaths for various reasons, but these numbers have been disproved - see below). There is still controversy sorrounding even those deaths[1] (http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/deiryassin.html#howman) as in all heated points of history dealing with the Arab-Israeli Conflict.

The Jewish forces participating in the battle belonged to two Jewish paramilitary groups, which at the time, were generally characterized as "terrorist" by the British Authorities, the Irgun (Etzel) and the Lehi. Both groups were known for their direct, aggressive tactics that included reprisal attacks against civilians after similiar attacks by Arab fighters.

The incident had a large impact on the outcome of the war, It greatly stimulated Palestinian Arab refugee flight (see Palestinian Exodus) and although the Arab states had already a significant presense in the form of the Arab Liberation Army, the event appeared to have played a critical role in the final decision of the Arab states to intervene more intensely in Mandate Palestine in 1948 to thwart the creation of the state of Israel. It also inflamed hatred among Jews and Arabs while simultaneuously intensifying the conflict.

Israel is probably the staunchest ally of the United States...naturally, I am PRO-Israel. Of course, the Bible also specifies that any one who does well by Israel also does well by God, so there's another god reason.

Bible-thumping christian evangalists like you appear to be are the LAST thing israel needs to support it. Anyone who has a religious agenda in supporting israel needs to stop being a selfish prick and realize that there are lives at stake and people sufffering - your shot at a spot in heaven has nothing to do with our nation. And contrary to what many of these people think, they're vocal support of israel is viewed with discomfort and suspision by mos of the Jewish community

But beggars can't be choosers.

Israel only "belongs" to the Israelis because we Jews killed the people who were there before us. We're the original genocidal maniacs and jihadists. Not a proud history. :(

There's not much that's more pathetic than a self-hating Jew

There's not much that's more pathetic than a self-hating Jew

very very good point my friend...

There's not much that's more pathetic than a self-hating Jew

Oh gee. Thanks for telling me what I am. You know, I really wasn't sure up until now but you've been nice enough to come along and tell me.

Look it doesn't matter if you pro or anti Israel, it's like asking if your pro or anti boat with the ship sinking. Israel is doomed by the simple matter that Arabs out breed them more than two to one, and they are doing it at a much younger age. An Arab Israeli may well be a grandparent by the time their Jewish peer has a first child.

The Arab population is growing exponentially faster than the Jewish. In order to match Arab population growth you would have to forcibly relocate Jews from the US and the EU, and even then it would just delay the inevitable.

Hey guys lay off Recondum, he was just lamenting on the negative side of his people's history as we all should.

We must learn form our mistakes and ensure no one survives to tell anyone about them.

Ein be'ad ma! cheers Reconditum.

There's not much that's more pathetic than a self-hating Jew
You know you sound like those Nazis who are complaining about self hating whites and mixed race marriages and shit. The Nazis say that the "kikes and muds" are responsible for all the shit in the world, are you going to complain about the goy? Anyone can be a repugnant self righteous racist, whether white or Jewish. There is nothing sacred about one's race or one's past, you should be judged on solely your own character... Reconditum is a much more civilized individual than you are.

I probably should have posted something more along the lines of what Elsburytonia said. Sorry about the snappishness.

Personally, I think that both sides have had various individuals and groups who have done things they really shouldn't have done. Lots of them. Over and over and over again.

You know you sound like those Nazis who are complaining about self hating whites and mixed race marriages and shit. The Nazis say that the "kikes and muds" are responsible for all the shit in the world, are you going to complain about the goy? Anyone can be a repugnant self righteous racist, whether white or Jewish. There is nothing sacred about one's race or one's past, you should be judged on solely your own character... Reconditum is a much more civilized individual than you are.

Here here!

You know you sound like those Nazis who are complaining about self hating whites and mixed race marriages and shit. The Nazis say that the "kikes and muds" are responsible for all the shit in the world, are you going to complain about the goy? Anyone can be a repugnant self righteous racist, whether white or Jewish. There is nothing sacred about one's race or one's past, you should be judged on solely your own character... Reconditum is a much more civilized individual than you are.

WHoa, I think you completely misunderstood me. Perhaps my word-choice could have been better, but I was thinking of Jews I know who, like reconditum, are enormously burdened by wrongs commited in their people's past, which, I freely agree, are legion in our case (as they are in ANY nation that's been around for a while, and gone through hell and high water). I was just saying that there's no need to feel this self-loathing for things you a) had nothing to do with and b)if you are a student of history, will find out were unfortunate, but definately not "genocide" - it was more along the lines of "war"- in all its revolting bloodshed and senselesness.

I guess you like 'em, you don't, or you're indifferent. I don't see room for 'debate', per se, just opinion.

I'm sad to say that in all my years, I've yet to meet an Israeli who proved likeable or unobtrusive - and yes, I've had occasion to meet more than a few. That's not to say that likeable Israelis don't exist, just that I've not had a wide experience of same.

Please don't confuse my feelings regarding the cross-section of Israelis I've encountered with anti-semiticism or anti-judaic sentiments. The only common thread I've ever been able to put my finger on, where these disagreeable people I've met would seem to have something in common, was (from my point of view) a distortion of the innate sense of self - of oneself, and of other-than-self.

I noticed that the people I'd met all seemed to have a very inflated sense of self - as though their life were a documentary, and their eyeballs the viewfinder (presumably the dream state is the editing room, what do I know?). All invariably placed their own comforts and considerations above those of the people in their orbit - and in socially inappropriate ways to boot. There was an unspoken and occasionally spoken sense of tribalism, and that was perhaps the most healthy light in which to see their...retarded sense of other-than-self. They were at their ease only in the presence of fellow Israelis, no matter how welcoming or inclusive the setting, or at least in the presence of fellow Jews, if not Israelis. The furthest away from the sense of 'self' that these people were able to get was usually something along the line of, 'you Christians - you know, we've got things in common'. Oh how they'd blanch when I'd casually mention that I wasn't raised a Christian.

I recall an event wherein a few of my non-Israeli Jewish friends were cornered by a strangely aggressive Israeli who seemed to take issue with them for not being Jewish 'enough' for his liking. He wasn't asked to return. On another occasion, an Isaeli happened upon a conversation regarding corruption in politics, and he insisted on jumping into the exchange by proclaiming loudly that there was 'no such thing' as corruption in Israeli politics, and made some rather impolite insinuations as to the moral compass of gentiles. He was also not asked to return.

I can't say I'm happy with Israeli politics, but really, there's exceedingly few places on the planet that have policy I readily agree with. So, to recap: I've yet to (knowingly) encounter an Israeli that I've had a truly positive experience with, and I'm not wild about Israel's foreign or domestic policies. Still and all, that doesn't make me anti-Israeli; I'm just dumb enough to hold to the idea that there are Israelis, and presumably more than a few, who don't have the same oddly-portioned psyche - who can see things from more than just their own perspective - who can, well - empathize. Compromise. And not fall into the trap of rampant nationalism. Or dare I say it, ethnic nationalism.

What was it I said at the beginning of this post? Something about, liking, disliking, or being indifferent? I still say 'dislike' is too strong a word. I'll say that all things taken into consideration, I'm indifferent. If I had more of a sense of genuine neighbourliness, of bonhomie from the people I've met...well, maybe it'd be different. But, it's not. So...I remain indifferent.


DT.

If you are a jew...then you should know why you took it back....

Ahem.....Abraham left Ur (where he was living at the time) with his nephew lot and their families to the place that God had set apart for them (somewhere near modern day jerusalem most likely).....they settled....Abraham Begat Isaac, begat Jacob/Israel, who begat joseph and his brothers.....josephs jealous brothers sold him into slavery.....he went to egypt....was slave to captain of the guard (potipher)...potipher's wife tried to get joseph to sleep with her.....she faild becasue he was faithful to god and his master, potipher.....she lied about him raping her, and he got sent to prison....well..he interpreted the dreams of two of pharoah's servents.....then pharoah had a dream...the sent for joseph to interpret dreams...blah blah blah.....dreams meant 7 years of plenty and 7 years of famine....he became gov. of egypt and stockpiled food for the famine that was coming.....he had two sons (Ephraim and Manasseh). Joseph's brothers came to get food becasue of the famine, didn't realize it was joseph...he tricked them..bnlah blah blah..then joseph's brothers and families and their father all came to egypt to live......this was probably about 100-150 people.....well.....joseph's 2 sons and 10 of his brother became the tribes of israel......they stayed there for the enteirety of the famine...and were honored as the relatives/desendants of joseph for many years unti lthey were eventually slaves......then years later (probably about 150 years actually) moses took the israelites back to canaan (israel).....then Caleb and joshua led israel to retake their promised land....

in a nutshell....it belonged to the jews in the first place....

In related news, all white, black and asian people are leaving the Americas. Parting words to the natives: "Woops. Didn't notice you there. Sorry."

WHoa, I think you completely misunderstood me. Perhaps my word-choice could have been better, but I was thinking of Jews I know who, like reconditum, are enormously burdened by wrongs commited in their people's past, which, I freely agree, are legion in our case (as they are in ANY nation that's been around for a while, and gone through hell and high water). I was just saying that there's no need to feel this self-loathing for things you a) had nothing to do with and b)if you are a student of history, will find out were unfortunate, but definately not "genocide" - it was more along the lines of "war"- in all its revolting bloodshed and senselesness.
I agree with your points. Glad we could clear this misunderstanding up, and sorry if I offended you in any way.

KML - No worries. I simply try to acknowledge that we aren't perfect. And, to me, the invasion/reoccupation of Canaan does bear many of the hallmarks of genocide. It's just something I like to keep in mind when I find myself around people who advocate killing all the Palestinians.

Elsburytonia and TC - Thanks. But KML's okay, I think. Everyone is entitled to their odd little misunderstanding and/or overreaction.

THE F%@K THEY ARE


sorry! :D

I think I fall into the pro-HeyLetsCutTheCrapAndStopFightingOverDesertLandTheSizeOfRhodeIsland category.

no hard feelings, though I do believe I'v never been compared to a nazi before, and I'd rather not repeat the experience....ah well, as Calvin'd dad often says, shitty stuff builds charachter

During the Six Day War between Israel and the Arab States, the American intelligence ship USS Liberty was attacked for 75 minutes in international waters by Israeli aircraft and motor torpedo boats. Thirty-four men died and 172 were wounded.

The attack, which was a war crime, has been a matter of controversy ever since. Survivors and many key government officials including Secretary of State Dean Rusk and former JCS Chairman Admiral Thomas Moorer say it was no accident. Israel and its supporters insist it was a "tragic case of misidentification" and charge that the survivors are either lying or too emotionally involved to see the truth.

Israel claims they mistook our ship for the out-of-service Egyptian horse carrier El Quseir and that we brought the attack upon ourselves by operating in a war zone without displaying a flag. Not so. We were in international waters, far from any fighting, and flew a bright, clean, new American flag. The flag we flew is on display at the National Cryptologic Museum, Fort Meade, Maryland and can be seen there, or in the USS Liberty Images Archive.

Our commanding officer, Captain William Loren McGonagle, received the Congressional Medal of Honor for conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty during the attack. The Congressional Medal of Honor is the highest award our country can bestow. To avoid embarrassing our attackers, Captain McGonagle's Medal of Honor was presented in a quiet ceremony in the Washington Navy Yard instead of in the White House by the President as is customary.

The USS Liberty Web Page presents part of the story along with some historical information and links to other sources.

source http://www.ussliberty.org/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

BBC Documentary – Dead in the Water

During the Six-Day war, Israel attacked and nearly sank the USS Liberty, claiming mistaken identity. The truth turns out to be more sinister...

http://sf.indymedia.org/uploads/libertypart1.ram

http://sf.indymedia.org/uploads/libertypart2.ram

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no hard feelings, though I do believe I'v never been compared to a nazi before, and I'd rather not repeat the experience....ah well, as Calvin'd dad often says, shitty stuff builds charachter

Give credit where credit is due; the Nazi's were snappy dressers.

During the Six Day War between Israel and the Arab States, the American intelligence ship USS Liberty was attacked for 75 minutes in international waters by Israeli aircraft and motor torpedo boats. Thirty-four men died and 172 were wounded.
<vastly snipped>


Oh, like the US has never committed a war crime, and gotten away with it.

During the Six Day War between Israel and the Arab States, the American intelligence ship USS Liberty was attacked for 75 minutes in international waters by Israeli aircraft and motor torpedo boats. Thirty-four men died and 172 were wounded.

... And a whole lot of other stuff too.

So, I take it you're pro-Israel then? Join the club.

Actually neither.. But probably leaning more to pro-Isreal. At least they seem to be doing something about terrorists.

During the Six Day War between Israel and the Arab States, the American intelligence ship USS Liberty was attacked for 75 minutes in international waters by Israeli aircraft and motor torpedo boats. Thirty-four men died and 172 were wounded.

The attack, which was a war crime, has been a matter of controversy ever since. Survivors and many key government officials including Secretary of State Dean Rusk and former JCS Chairman Admiral Thomas Moorer say it was no accident. Israel and its supporters insist it was a "tragic case of misidentification" and charge that the survivors are either lying or too emotionally involved to see the truth.

Oh man. That's pretty lame. No, the attack was not a war crime. It was an act of war, if you want to see it as such, but not a war crime. While I feel for the families of the men who died, I'm sick of seeing it brought up time and time again by the anti-Israel crowd.

But I agree it was no accident. A US Navy ship was spying on Israel, trying to determine exactly how the war was progressing. The US wanted to know as much as it could about how US/NATO gear fared against Soviet stuff, and the Six Day War was a good place to get some info. Israel wanted to keep their secrets. Yeah, even allies can have squabbles.

Point worth mentioning: The US now keeps its spy ships well clear of Israel's coast. Even if we still deny we were breaking our own laws and spying on an ally.

So, I take it you're pro-Israel then? Join the club.

Oh no. As I stated before, I think both sides are messed up. At least in regards to those who actually pick up the guns, bombs, knives, rockets, etc.

I'm pro-peacefull civilians who just want to get along.

Personally, I took UAP's post as your basic "ok, I have nothing logical to work on, so I'll pull people's patriotism/emotional levers, and see if I can get them to agree with me based on that instead" attack.

Israel bombed the uss liberty to try and draw america into its war with the arab countrys, because of this they almost nuked egypt thinking they attacked them and not israel.
The libertys communications were jammed so they could not call for help.
The only country that could have jammed the communications was israel because america had gave them the technology.

watch this documentary
http://sf.indymedia.org/uploads/libertypart1.ram
http://sf.indymedia.org/uploads/libertypart2.ram

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And here is something else

It turns out that Israel has had a potential wiretap on every phone in America for years, along with the ability to monitor and record who any person is calling, anywhere in America; information of great value even if one does not listen to the calls themselves. Amdocs, Inc., the company which subcontracts billing and directory services for phone companies around the world, including 90 percent of American phone companies, is owned by Israeli interests. Yet another company, Comverse Infosys, is suspected of having built a “back door” into the equipment permanently installed into the phone system that allows instant eavesdropping by law enforcement agencies on any phone in America. This includes yours.

http://100777.com/media/israelispiespart3.ram?PHPSESSID=d7d65bdab5f0ea2a9e93eae034d47d4d

http://100777.com/media/israelispiespart4.ram?PHPSESSID=d7d65bdab5f0ea2a9e93eae034d47d4d

http://100777.com/media/israeli.WMV?PHPSESSID=d7d65bdab5f0ea2a9e93eae034d47d4d

United - bit hung up on this aren't you?

Though I am not Jewish, I am pro-Israeli and being a war-buff in all, I would have to say the Israeli military pretty impresive. In 1967, during the Six Day War, the Israeli airforce managed to find out the average respnse time of the Egyptian airforce and even when Egyptian pilots took a coffee break. Because of this the Israeli airforce manage to destroy most of the Egyptian airforce, in a preemptive strike, before Egyptian planes could even take off.

United - bit hung up on this aren't you?

Well i saw this ridiculous thread with everybody saying israel is good, israel is great, israel is just perfect. And i figured i would add a little reality .

Though I am not Jewish, I am pro-Israeli and being a war-buff in all, I would have to say the Israeli military pretty impresive. In 1967, during the Six Day War, the Israeli airforce managed to find out the average respnse time of the Egyptian airforce and even when Egyptian pilots took a coffee break. Because of this the Israeli airforce manage to destroy most of the Egyptian airforce, in a preemptive strike, before Egyptian planes could even take off.

Yes because america gave them the technology and the money to do it !

And while im on the subject of technology, did you know it was israel who gave the chinese the ability to hit america with nuclear icbm technology the americans gave israel, isn't that funny.
It's great how Israel can sell advanced military technology to china, possess nuclear weapons, and have the pick of all of the new US military technology, but will not tolerate her neighbors buying ordnance for their militaries.
I guess that will be a good reason for america to attack them on a fake wmd hunt and get another enemy of israel out of the way !

Pro Israeli.

United wants to bring up old biased articles. Well here's some facts that have been taken by recent things.

The Israelis have not used terrorist tactics for their survival. Example:

Israeli's assasinate a famous terrorist leader in Palestine. Palestinian suicide bomber blows up bus of civilians. Israeli's assasinate heir to famous terrorist leader. Palestinian suicide bomber blows up playground of school children.

Every attack by Israel is precision and based on specific targets. Palestinian terrorists blow themselves up at every turn to kill ANY Israelis.

Well i saw this ridiculous thread with everybody saying israel is good, israel is great, israel is just perfect. And i figured i would add a little reality .

Isreal is not perfect. They have their bad sides (spies, nukes.. Etc). And their arrogance.

But to some extent.. they have to be paranoid..

Majority of the world actually does hate them. Especially since their surrounded by totally muslim nations. Their only ally is US.

Strange how much prejudice against Isreal stems from the Isreal-Palestinian conflict. Especially the muslim nations.

Pro Israeli.

United wants to bring up old biased articles. Well here's some facts that have been taken by recent things.

The Israelis have not used terrorist tactics for their survival. Example:

Israeli's assasinate a famous terrorist leader in Palestine. Palestinian suicide bomber blows up bus of civilians. Israeli's assasinate heir to famous terrorist leader. Palestinian suicide bomber blows up playground of school children.

Every attack by Israel is precision and based on specific targets. Palestinian terrorists blow themselves up at every turn to kill ANY Israelis.

Dropping a 500 pound bomb in a crowed square to kill 1 person but killing a dozen is not precision bombing ! in fact it is the same and has the same effect as bombing a bus ! the only difference is israel has planes and tanks supplied by america and palestine has explosives strapped to people who have had family and friends blown up by israels rockets and bombs. Wouldn't you want to kill someone if they killed someone you loved? And wouldn't you want to kill the person giving that person the power to kill? think about that !

It turns out that Israel has had a potential wiretap on every phone in America for years, along with the ability to monitor and record who any person is calling, anywhere in America; information of great value even if one does not listen to the calls themselves. Amdocs, Inc., the company which subcontracts billing and directory services for phone companies around the world, including 90 percent of American phone companies, is owned by Israeli interests. Yet another company, Comverse Infosys, is suspected of having built a “back door” into the equipment permanently installed into the phone system that allows instant eavesdropping by law enforcement agencies on any phone in America. This includes yours.


conspiracy theorists tend to be insecure, under-educated bastards United, could this include you? And while you're at it, why don't you at least give us something a bit more original than monitored phones and "back doors". honestly.

I'm pro-Israel because they are a beacon of democracy in a region drowning in religious ignorance.

Some of the posts support the suicide bombers targeting civilians as the last resort of a desperate people. Why, then, have the American Indians not resorted to this device? Or African-Americans? The Australian Aborigines? Or any other "oppressed" minority in the world? It seems to be an Islamic problem.

Some people are alwsy screaming about peace & love & understanding...on one side. Why are the Muslims exempt from this? The U.N. established the state of Israel in 1948, when it was immediately attacked by it's neighbors. Why does nobody protest this violation of U.N. doctrine?

Israel is not perfect, but at least they are trying to have a civilized country. I don't see the surrounding nations doing so.

Pro Israeli.

United wants to bring up old biased articles. Well here's some facts that have been taken by recent things.

The Israelis have not used terrorist tactics for their survival. Example:

Israeli's assasinate a famous terrorist leader in Palestine. Palestinian suicide bomber blows up bus of civilians. Israeli's assasinate heir to famous terrorist leader. Palestinian suicide bomber blows up playground of school children.

Every attack by Israel is precision and based on specific targets. Palestinian terrorists blow themselves up at every turn to kill ANY Israelis.

If they wish to fight, their options are limited... Not many palestinians have access to so-called precision weaponry. They also tend to have a hard time getting into Israeli military instalations or other "valid targets".

If they wish to fight, their options are limited... Not many palestinians have access to so-called precision weaponry. They also tend to have a hard time getting into Israeli military instalations or other "valid targets".

So you feel Palestinian leaders are justified in their efforts to massacre school children and civilians?

I'd like to ask anyone that justifies their support of Isreal by saying "the jews were there first" how they can defend the alottment of land based on ethnicity or religion.

The way the Isrealis treat the Palestinians is dispicable. The way the Palestinians respond is dispicable.

America is more pro-Isreal than the Isrealis.

The way the Isrealis treat the Palestinians is dispicable. The way the Palestinians respond is dispicable.

The thing is, I don't think the Israelis would treat the Palestinians so "despicably" if they would just accept reality,take the land that has been offered, and go about building a peaceful nation.

I see Isreal as a Rich version of Iraq when we were buddies, with nukes.

A state based on religion and/or racial lines (Depending who you ask) is a BAD set up.

It's not necessarily Israel that's at fault, so much as the Zionists.

A state based on religion and/or racial lines (Depending who you ask) is a BAD set up

Agreed. Most of the Muslim nations are set up that way. Israel at least gives full civil rights to it's Muslim citizens. There are even "Israeli Arab" members of the Israeii parliament. Contrast that with the treatment of other religions in most Muslim countries, excepting perhaps Turkey.

A state based on religion and/or racial lines (Depending who you ask) is a BAD set up

Agreed. Most of the Muslim nations are set up that way. Israel at least gives full civil rights to it's Muslim citizens. There are even "Israeli Arab" members of the Israeii parliament. Contrast that with the treatment of other religions in most Muslim countries, excepting perhaps Turkey.

Thats pretty much true now. However before Israel was founded, there were significant jewish minorities just about everywhere in the middle east, under muslim law they were a protected minority. Jews were more integrated in the Middle East than in Europe where they lived in ghettos. The current defense minister of Israel for example is an Jew of Iraqi descent . This only really changed after the creation of Israel when hundreds of Palestinian villages were simply emptied, as Palestinians fled Israeli terrorist groups like the Irgun. It was only after this point that semetism really took hold in the Muslim world.

I'm pro-Israel because they are a beacon of democracy in a region drowning in religious ignorance.

Some of the posts support the suicide bombers targeting civilians as the last resort of a desperate people. Why, then, have the American Indians not resorted to this device? Or African-Americans? The Australian Aborigines? Or any other "oppressed" minority in the world? It seems to be an Islamic problem.

Some people are alwsy screaming about peace & love & understanding...on one side. Why are the Muslims exempt from this? The U.N. established the state of Israel in 1948, when it was immediately attacked by it's neighbors. Why does nobody protest this violation of U.N. doctrine?

Israel is not perfect, but at least they are trying to have a civilized country. I don't see the surrounding nations doing so.

Civilization has no place in war, and visa versa.

Throughout most of history, there was little distinction between killing civilians and killing soldiers. I think that whole idea evolved out of the desire to make war "cleaner", more like a civilized aristocratic bloodsport, than the chaotic hell it's supposed to be. Soon as you start putting rules into it, it stops being war, and becomes a game. War doesn't have rules. Pretending it does, for whatever reason, isn't necessarily a good thing.

War should be bloody. It should be violent. There should be shards of bone, sprays of bloody, and every conceivable mangling of the human form. It should be indescriminate - everybody at risk rather than just those trained to fight. It should be terrifying. It should be dirty. It should be the absolute and utter embodiment of everything any remotely sane person hates and fears. It should be utterly dehumanizing in every conceivable way, an example of every bit of dark demented bloodlust and rage that crouches in the back corners of the human psyche. And people should be fully aware of it for what it is. No glory. No honor. No heros. Simply, and solely people reduced to the level of beasts killing and maiming each other because they (or, rather the people pulling their chains) can't agree on some point.

If war was like that all the time, every time, there would be far less of it.

Civilization has no place in war, and visa versa.

Throughout most of history, there was little distinction between killing civilians and killing soldiers. I think that whole idea evolved out of the desire to make war "cleaner", more like a civilized aristocratic bloodsport, than the chaotic hell it's supposed to be. Soon as you start putting rules into it, it stops being war, and becomes a game. War doesn't have rules. Pretending it does, for whatever reason, isn't necessarily a good thing.

War should be bloody. It should be violent. There should be shards of bone, sprays of bloody, and every conceivable mangling of the human form. It should be indescriminate - everybody at risk rather than just those trained to fight. It should be terrifying. It should be dirty. It should be the absolute and utter embodiment of everything any remotely sane person hates and fears. It should be utterly dehumanizing in every conceivable way, an example of every bit of dark demented bloodlust and rage that crouches in the back corners of the human psyche. And people should be fully aware of it for what it is. No glory. No honor. No heros. Simply, and solely people reduced to the level of beasts killing and maiming each other because they (or, rather the people pulling their chains) can't agree on some point.

If war was like that all the time, every time, there would be far less of it.

I agree with what you just said....but don't ever let me hear you complaining about geneva convention or inhumane treatment of prisoners or colatteral damage....because if you do..this post will come flying back at you....

Civilization has no place in war, and visa versa......

I believe that in some ways would be most effecient. Cruel, yet efficient. Could be finally the eventual outcome if this conflict isn't resolved.

Heck, Arab nations have all turned on Isreal before, whats stopping them from doing it again?

I was just wondering. Hopefully, this'll lead to a flame-free debate.

Hell yeah.

I have read this thread, and UAP seems to be talking about the USS Liberty, without actually knowing about it.
This is what actually happened, from someone who was in the Israeli Navy at the time.
The USS Liberty was a US spy ship. The whole debate was whether it was in Israeli waters or not. Lets accept it was on the brink of Israeli waters. When Israel saw an unidentified ship on the edge of its waters, they demanded that it identify itself. When they refused Israel delivered it a 24 hour ultimatum, to get out or be sunk. They still didn't move 24 hours later, so Israel moved in and sank it. Its understandable that they didn't wish to identify themselves, as they were a US spy ship. However when told to get out, they should have. What is slightly less understandable in my opinion is why, when the Liberty sent out a distress signal, three times the US recalled the fighter planes sent from a carrier in the Med. Twice by the Secretary of Defence and once the President himself. Maybe the Liberty was doing something, less than legal?

There it is, the whole story. I am getting tired of all the BS surrounding this story, picturing the Liberty as some kind of cruise ship or something. You people honestly believe that one day an Israeli General woke up and decided to go destroy an American ship?:rolleyes:

Well i saw this ridiculous thread with everybody saying israel is good, israel is great, israel is just perfect. And i figured i would add a little reality .

Have you always had this trouble with reading?

Sanctaphrax - Thanks for that. Interesting.

i am pro israel considering im jewish

I am, but not because I think they are righteous, holy, or 'G-d's chosen people' or anything.

I have two simple reasons. One is logical (I think), the other superstitious.

Reason 1) Nearly every country in the middle east has a religious, tribal, etnic, or other minority that is mistreated abused or downright slaughtered wholesale. Nearly every regime in the region has blood on it's hands. The fact that the world (and especially the middle-east) only bothers to protest or get upity when the Israelis do it makes me want to support it. In my own philosophy hypocracy is a greater sin than warfare. Since neither side in the actual conflict has performed a greater sin than warfare, and since Palenstine's supporters are generally hypocrites (except for the actual Palestinians) and possibly even racist ones, I tend to defend Israel first. (Though I recognize that both are in the wrong in the actual continuation and perpetration of the conflict.)

Reason 2) Someone once told me, and I can't remember who, "Never bet against a Jew. Not even if the whole world is about to lynch him and all he has is a sling. It's a bad Idea. Something will happen that defies sense and the Jew will be the only one left standing." Looking back, History seems to support this hypothesis, and I would rather not take the chance.

I was just wondering. Hopefully, this'll lead to a flame-free debate.

Why not? Don't they deserve their own country?

Of course, I could say the same thing about the Palestinians.

I'm pro Israel.

Sanctaphrax - Thanks for that. Interesting.
*tips hat*
No problem, anytime.

I'm pro Israel.


I remember you saying that you thought Sharon was the best current world leader, so this doesn't surprise me. Mind you, I said him as well, so you can guess my answer.

I'm pro Israel

I am. They are among the sturdiest people on Earth, thriving in the environment they are in. And while we can debate about their actions, it is undeniable that, right now, they can grind the Palestinians and their Arab neighbors to a pulp, but they choose not to. That amazes me.
I also support the creation of a Greater Israel one day, encompassing the Sainai Peninsula, most of Jordan, all of Lebannon, and Syria up to Damascus. However, I know that this can't happen in my lifetime, at least peacefully.

Jewish, Pro-Israel.

Just look at my posts :p

I think the LIBERAL was a reference to a large amount, not Left Liberal. Decisive Action seems to have a lot of pent-up frustration.
DA is just a neo-Nazi who blames his failures on the Jews.

I am pro-Israel.

Israelis should be able to live in peace in the land of their fathers.... but NO, the Arabs have to run the whole damn region.

I bet if Palestinian freaks would stop terrorizing Israelis, Isrealis would stop attacking Palestinian bad guys.

Conversely, if the Israelis stopped punching back... the Palestinians wouldn't stop their terrorism. To me, that makes Israel the good guy in the situation: theirs is a reactive defense/aggression.

I am. They are among the sturdiest people on Earth, thriving in the environment they are in. And while we can debate about their actions, it is undeniable that, right now, they can grind the Palestinians and their Arab neighbors to a pulp, but they choose not to. That amazes me.
I also support the creation of a Greater Israel one day, encompassing the Sainai Peninsula, most of Jordan, all of Lebannon, and Syria up to Damascus. However, I know that this can't happen in my lifetime, at least peacefully.

You are right, they could... but they don't.

Reverse the situation as a litmus test: what would happen if the Palestinians' and Israelis' roles were reversed? Would the Palestinians slaughter the Israelis with the help of the other Arab countries? Probably.


Once again why I think Israel is to be held in favorable regard.

They could pulverize the middle east, or at least their closest neighbors. lol

Nope. Not me.
All you pro-Israelis should read more history books :D
(no offence or anything..)

Usual issues:
Yes, the rest of the Arab world (and a fairly large portion of the world in general), in general, is racist/religionist/otherwise full of evil nutjobs. They, too, suck. Their being screwed up doesn't make anyone doing the same to them less screwed up.

The notion of a right to state is ludicrous. We're one species, and every single human being has a slightly different world view, no matter how derived from others it may be. If there 'has' to be a country for Jewish people, there 'has' to be one for every single seperate tribe of Native groups, every long-term sub-culture (A Goth Country, a Biker Country, a Transvesdite Country...), every religion (A Catholic Country, a Wiccan country, a Satanist Country), and every philosophy (A humanist country, an ethical egoist country...), and, if you're doing it based on race rather than beliefs, then you have to have a country for half-breeds of every single variety, you have to give the KKK their Land of Whitey, again, the native cultures... there's just not enough land for all of these borders.

Nope. Not me.
All you pro-Israelis should read more history books :D
Ladies and Gentlemen, a self hater has entered the building!

Ladies and Gentlemen, a self hater has entered the building!

Hee. OK, I admit: I'm an Israeli. *But* that just means I have more experience, and knowledge, and whatnot.. Well, at least I've heard more about it than the average, say, Japanese or Swede. I hope I have, anyway. But I didn't say I have anything against the Israelis, I just have a lot against the actions the IDF is committing in the name of Israel. And against the Israeli government. I assumed that was what was meant by 'pro-Israeli'.

So i'm not a self hater!

Well, that is an interesting point. What is it to be "pro-Israeli"? For me it means supporting the rights of Israelis as a people to exist and prosper. So, by my definition, Jifore would be pro-Israeli. He could be pro-Palestinian as well, who knows?

I also support the creation of a Greater Israel one day, encompassing the Sainai Peninsula, most of Jordan, all of Lebannon, and Syria up to Damascus. However, I know that this can't happen in my lifetime, at least peacefully.

Lets just remember that NA is the guy that wants to ban sex, so you'll exuse me for not taking him entirely seriously. Most Israelis do not support the creation of a "greater Israel" so I don't see why you should. Jews don't need an empire, they need a homeland.

The day will come, when Israel will be made to account for her atrocities, the white sex slave trade, the oppression of the native peoples, the mass murder of non-combatants, the ecstacy drug trade, the violations of more UN resolutions than Iraq and Afghanistan combined. The destruction of the USS Liberty, the spying on the USA, the pushing behind the scenes with their moles in the Pentagon, to agitate for the war with Iraq.

OMG THE EVIL JOOOS CONTROL TEH WORLD!!!11!1!1 :rolleyes: http://genmay.com/images/smilies/tard.gif

I distinctly remember that the colonists fought against British domination without resorting to murdering children. Go ahead and keep spewing your half-truths and vitriol, the United States will remain supportive of the ONLY democracy in that part of the world.

Once again I say it doesn't matter because the Arab Israelis are going to be the electoral majority in Israel in fifty years. If you want a links here, or just google, The hard core Zionists are starting to get concerned.

http://www.meforum.org/article/478

To sum up,

Basically the Israeli population breaks down 4.75 million Jews, 887,000 Muslims, 128,000 Christians, 123,000 Druze, and 128,000 without religious classification. The current birth rate for Muslim women is at 4.6, for Jews 2.6. What's more the average age of Muslims is 18, it's 30 for Jewish Israelis. That means the Arab Israelis are headed for a baby boom. In 18 years they'll have another baby boom. In fifty years they'll be close to electoral equality.

It doesn't matter what you believe, if you’re an Orthodox Rabbi or a goose stepping moron. The babies will be born, they will grow up, and have lots more babies. Muslims are not big on birth control. I'm sorry people, but in this case your opinions don't mean a damn thing. What will decide the future of Israel is the old bump and grind.

In my opinion the Israelis and Palestinians are as bad as each other.

I'm Pro-Peace! There is plenty of blame to go around on both sides.

Well, that is an interesting point. What is it to be "pro-Israeli"? For me it means supporting the rights of Israelis as a people to exist and prosper. So, by my definition, Jifore would be pro-Israeli. He could be pro-Palestinian as well, who knows?

First of all, I'm female.
Anyway, I was assuming pro-Israel meant pro-the actions Israel, or whatever body represents Israel (the police, military etc..), take/s. I don't know what exactly I think about Israel's right to exist (which is how you defined pro-Israeli), but it's rather irrelevant in the current situation, since Israel's there, and you can't just eliminate the whole population (same goes for the Palestinians).

So I'm not pro- either, really..

If you are a female you ought to be pro-Israel, They've had a female PM and have many females in government. Take that versus their enemies in the Arab world. In most Mid-Eastern nations women can't even drive.

If you are a female you ought to be pro-Israel, They've had a female PM and have many females in government. Take that versus their enemies in the Arab world. In most Mid-Eastern nations women can't even drive.

There are also women in the Palestinian Authority..

Lets just remember that NA is the guy that wants to ban sex, so you'll exuse me for not taking him entirely seriously.
And let's not forget he also would let his grandparents happily starve to death. If they were so stupid to not save enough money for their old age.

Israel all the way!

And just so I don't look too much like an idiot, I didn't read pages 2-9, so if there's a debate about Israel I don't know about it.

Pro-Israel

Does this mean if you're pro-Israel, you then must be anti-Palestine? Or can you be Pro both and just wish for them to both do well and finally arrive at a peaceful solution? Because I think that should be what most thinking people who are objective would desire.

I interpret pro-Israel as meaning that Israel is in the right. Pro-Israel does not inherently mean anti-Palestinian.

I interpret pro-Israel as meaning that Israel is in the right. Pro-Israel does not inherently mean anti-Palestinian.

Right about what? Is there really a right or wrong here any more? Isn't that part of the problem? Perhaps if both sides had a piece of humble pie they could resolve the conflict. I mean really, isn't right and wrong in a situation of war of this type rather pointless? Shouldn't the objective be to stop it, even if that means a little compromise by all sides involved?

Right about what? Is there really a right or wrong here any more? Isn't that part of the problem? Perhaps if both sides had a piece of humble pie they could resolve the conflict. I mean really, isn't right and wrong in a situation of war of this type rather pointless? Shouldn't the objective be to stop it, even if that means a little compromise by all sides involved?

You are right that the situation as a whole is more complex and nuanced than "Pro-Israel" or "Pro-Palestine."

I actually should have said Anti-Israel instead of Pro-Palestine, since that is where there isn't any complexity or nuance. On message boards there are many people who are plain anti-Israel who only post Israeli "atrocities" and rhetoric (their posts usually barely even talk about Palestinians). Pro-Israelis are the people who come in and produce facts that rebut the anti-Israeli rhetoric.

However, in a logical discussion about the conflict and how to stop it and make life better for all, you are right. There really isn't pro-Israel and pro-Palestine in that sense.

I am definitely pro israel. I have spent some time in the region and it is has made the benifits of democracy very clear to me. Driving up from Sinai penninsula into Israel is like quite literally entering the promised land, milk and honey, all that stuff. One side of the border=barren wasteland. Once inside Eilat = tropical paradise. I had a drink at a bar in Tel-Aviv called Saddam on fire. Of course the drink was flaming. There was a piece of a scud that landed nearby hanging on the wall. The pople didnt want revenge, they were just thankful that they restrained from being suckered into WW3 by saddam. Good honest people.

You are right that the situation as a whole is more complex and nuanced than "Pro-Israel" or "Pro-Palestine."

I actually should have said Anti-Israel instead of Pro-Palestine, since that is where there isn't any complexity or nuance. On message boards there are many people who are plain anti-Israel who only post Israeli "atrocities" and rhetoric (their posts usually barely even talk about Palestinians). Pro-Israelis are the people who come in and produce facts that rebut the anti-Israeli rhetoric.

However, in a logical discussion about the conflict and how to stop it and make life better for all, you are right. There really isn't pro-Israel and pro-Palestine in that sense.

You're a smart dude. Good for you! I agree 100%. People treat it on the net as though it was simply an issue of right or wrong, sure there have been tactics employed that are clearly wrong such as the use of terrorism to further a cause. However I think it only hurts the cause. If only the people could get the extremists to stop, there would be at least a chance. However as long as people will allow their children etc. to strap bombs to themselves to make their point, it hurts their cause and people assess "right & wrong"

I truly believe given the choice both sides would prefer peace to war. I'm talking your average person. The Israeli who goes to a cafe yet fears the bomber, or the Palestinian who lives in a refugee camp fears the bomb sent in to nab one terror suspect. People never seem to think of the average Joe who just wants to live in peace and raise their family. If the fighting could just stop.. then the possibilities are endless. However, the fighting in it's self is complex I suppose. However to most of us it's as easy as just not doing it!

I truly believe given the choice both sides would prefer peace to war. I'm talking your average person. The Israeli who goes to a cafe yet fears the bomber, or the Palestinian who lives in a refugee camp fears the bomb sent in to nab one terror suspect. People never seem to think of the average Joe who just wants to live in peace and raise their family. If the fighting could just stop.. then the possibilities are endless. However, the fighting in it's self is complex I suppose. However to most of us it's as easy as just not doing it!

A good point. I'm anti-Israeli, but only ever-so-slightly pro-Palestinian.
The problem in the situation is that to give up fighting the other side would de-legitimise much of what the person stands for, or put them in a weaker position politically.
Most Palestinian terrorist / freedom-fighter leaders couldn't survive in the world of politics because they're ignorant of anything that doesn't kill people. And many of Israel's political leaders have built their careers on war, and the screwing over of various peoples. It just wont work.

Again, with so many of the current problems the world is facing, it's really the fault of Britain, America and the other imperialist powers. And as an English bloke, I apologise for the actions of my country that have led us to this situation!

I use the term "pro existence of Israel" but i am pretty much reconciled that the Israel-palestine issue will never be solved while Sharon is in office. I for one, would love to the US use its' influence to force a return to 1967 armistice lines and enforce the border with UN troops.....i know, a fantasy, but Palestine has to have a country, but Israel's existence is sacrosanct. the single fastest way to begin a settling of the wild middle east to force a resolution on this issue, which has grown so complex you can;t even really define what side you are on without sounded at least insensitive or at most tyrannical and crazed. they both deserve a country. sooner rather than later. makes me wish Hamas and Al AQSA brgades would just go away, then Israel would HAVE to meet a resolution, or the whole world would turn against them. as long as those other freak groups exist, and people are blowing themselves up in busloads of women and children, the sympathy for the Palestinians will always be muted. Take that away, and you have a situation where Israel has no choice due to world opinion

makes me wish Hamas and Al AQSA brgades would just go away, then Israel would HAVE to meet a resolution, or the whole world would turn against them. as long as those other freak groups exist, and people are blowing themselves up in busloads of women and children, the sympathy for the Palestinians will always be muted. Take that away, and you have a situation where Israel has no choice due to world opinion

this isn't meant as one of those 'Zionist conspiracy plot' rants, but the above isn't that simple - as you have said in another section.
the strength of the Jewish / Zionist (call it what you will) lobby in America means that the US will never pass serious / meaningful sanctions against Israel, even if world opinion is against the two. Really, any change has to come from within, between the Palestinians and the Israelis. So that makes it even less likely!

The smartest thing the Palestinians could do is to stop any and all support of these fundi groups. If the suicide bombing stopped. It would force Israel to deal with them. As long as Palestine keeps letting the terrorism go on, no solution will happen. If peace is what is really sought, they will stop it.

I understand and agree that the Palestinians have been oppressed on many levels, I also understand that Israel has felt a need to avenge these acts.. it's a never ending cycle of violence. I think it would show a lot of good will honestly if Palestine would stop first. It would force Israel's hand.

It's a start.

Pro-Israeli.

I'm rather confused why people are demanding that Israel withdraw to pre-1967 borders. Wasn't it the Egyptians who started the whole mess by decided to initiate a blockade of the Straits of Tiran? Hmmm?

I suppose that those who want Israel to withdraw also want the United States to withdraw from the Southwest, after all, that was originally territory of the Republic of Mexico... :rolleyes:

I'm rather confused why people are demanding that Israel withdraw to pre-1967 borders. Wasn't it the Egyptians who started the whole mess by decided to initiate a blockade of the Straits of Tiran? Hmmm?

I suppose that those who want Israel to withdraw also want the United States to withdraw from the Southwest, after all, that was originally territory of the Republic of Mexico... :rolleyes:

I think it's a matter of ideology vs. a realistic peace.

If people want to stick to an ideology, chances for peace is slim, if people (Israel & PA) really want peace they will make compromises.. because if they don't, peace is a far off distant thought. You can be right or wrong, which ever side you wish to come down on. Both sides have and do make valid arguments. If the point is to find a peaceful solution, the "why should they" people need to shut up and let these people work it out. If going back to 1967 borders would end the conflict it's more than worth it. Israel would still maintain the majority of the land.

Tyrandis, not sure how you make the comparison, but hey, not omportant. 1067 was the last "agreed" lines.....simpliostic, but at least a starting point. the fact is, both sides have to give up something they don;t want to, most specifically, palestinian right of return and the Israel has to give up w bank and e jerusalem....or it won;t fly. yes, much more complicated than that, i know, my point is it doesn;t need to start from scratch......

I really don't know what I am. I guess pro-Israeli. I know that ever since ancient times Israel has been fighting off the Egyptians, Romans and the Palestines. It's sad, really, that many of the Israelis do not know peace. :( I really hope this whole shebang is over soon. Otherwise, the children growing up in this will be even more...corrupted by constant warfare. And the only thing they will know is war. :sniper: and :mp5: will be their future. :confused: *sigh*

The smartest thing the Palestinians could do is to stop any and all support of these fundi groups. If the suicide bombing stopped. It would force Israel to deal with them. As long as Palestine keeps letting the terrorism go on, no solution will happen. If peace is what is really sought, they will stop it.

I understand and agree that the Palestinians have been oppressed on many levels, I also understand that Israel has felt a need to avenge these acts.. it's a never ending cycle of violence. I think it would show a lot of good will honestly if Palestine would stop first. It would force Israel's hand.

It's a start.

Unfortunately, it's not simply as easy as cutting Palestinian support to groups such as Hamas. This would be like the U.N. telling all countries to immediately disarm all nuclear weapons; it's simply unfeasible. Very gradual steps have to be taken in order to put a stop to Palestinian terrorist groups. What makes it even more difficult is that it's not like these groups represent a small minority of Palestinians. It's not like Hamas:Palestinians::KKK:Americans. Most people believe that the KKK is founded on BS and ignorance in America, but Hamas has popular support from a relatively large number of Palestinians. It is essential that groups such as Hamas be reduced to almost nothing, with very little support, but it is a very difficult task. Groups like Hamas are the ones that are prolonging the conflict and bringing a possible peace process to an impasse.

With the new Palestinian leadership, now is the opportunity to help the terrorist groups (particularly Hamas) lose power. However, this also depends on whether Abbas is for peace (like another Sadat) or for war (like Arafat). Now is the time for skeptical optimism, so hopefully Abbas is in fact for peace.

I have conversed with Israelis online and they have said that at the very least, the first step to grudual destroying Palestinian terrorist group influence (which would start a peace process and a return to normalcy) would be for the PA to stop broadcasting anti-Israeli/Jew propaganda on Palestinian Television. It is pretty obvious why this needs to be stopped, so I don't really need to go into it. This could be the start of more things that would reduce terrorist influence and could help bring peace.

There are a lot of very nice looking Isreali women. National service does it I suppose.

but Hamas has popular support from a relatively large number of Palestinians. It is essential that groups such as Hamas be reduced to almost nothing, with very little support, but it is a very difficult task. Groups like Hamas are the ones that are prolonging the conflict and bringing a possible peace process to an impasse.

I totally agree that the Palestinians must make the first move. That move must be the total condemnation of all terrorism and Hamas and their ilk. If they really want peace, this is what they must do. I understand that it won't be easy and Hamas will probably never go away all together, however to make them nothing more than a nuisance as in the case of the KKK in the United States would speak volumes to the rest of the world.

You know, I really do want to go to Israel one day. Unfortunately my parents think we'll get killed if we go there, which is ridiculous. Statistics show that you have more of a chance of getting killed in America today than in Israel (though of course it's different for terrorist attacks). Being safe in Israel is no different than being safe in New York. Plus, El Al is supposed to be the best airline in the world. I have friends who go to Israel and they don't get killed, so why can't I go? :headbang:

I totally agree that the Palestinians must make the first move. That move must be the total condemnation of all terrorism and Hamas and their ilk. If they really want peace, this is what they must do. I understand that it won't be easy and Hamas will probably never go away all together, however to make them nothing more than a nuisance as in the case of the KKK in the United States would speak volumes to the rest of the world.

In a perfect world, the PA could condemn all terrorism and Hamas without any consequences, but the truth is, if Abbas does this, Hamas and the terrorist groups would revolt, Abbas would probably be assassinated, and there would be civil war. Abbas simply can't denounce these groups, which is why steps must be taken gradually to destroy support for terrorists.

In a perfect world, the PA could condemn all terrorism and Hamas without any consequences, but the truth is, if Abbas does this, Hamas and the terrorist groups would revolt, Abbas would probably be assassinated, and there would be civil war. Abbas simply can't denounce these groups, which is why steps must be taken gradually to destroy support for terrorists.

Sigh.. sadly you're probably correct. If it was as easy as the ideas we have put forth in this thread, the conflict would of been over years ago. I do know that. The answer seems so obvious and in many respects easy.. yet, both sides have such strong ideologies, that common sense seems to escape both sides. That's why I've always disliked extreme ideologies in general.

Maybe there will come a day when the PA could ask for Israel's help in doing away with these extremists. I fear that simple request is far more than the Palestinians are prepared to do, even if so many might want it. Pride is such a double edge sword.

You know, I really do want to go to Israel one day. Unfortunately my parents think we'll get killed if we go there, which is ridiculous. Statistics show that you have more of a chance of getting killed in America today than in Israel (though of course it's different for terrorist attacks). Being safe in Israel is no different than being safe in New York. Plus, El Al is supposed to be the best airline in the world. I have friends who go to Israel and they don't get killed, so why can't I go? :headbang:


I went on business trip to Israel at the start on the Intefada, it was OK. I flew on El Al, (man do they screen the crap out of you) and stayed at the King David which has a nice Kosher Buffet. Nothing happened to me while I was there and it was predominately a pleasant trip. A lot of the places I visited have since had at least one suicide bombing, which gives you a weird feeling when you see it on the news, but the chances of you being there when it happens are low.

I never give people advice on go or stay issues, because you can kick the bucket either way. If you go, catch up on all Israeli safety data and US State Department warnings. You don't want to end up in the wrong place at the wrong time.

There are also women in the Palestinian Authority..
Very few since the PA tries to keep them down as they do in most Middle Eastern Nations. Now to be honest, I doubt Israel will elect another woman in the near future since many of those still voting remember 1973 and Golda Meir's one big mistake.

I have to pose the question, where else in the world can a Wisconsin school teacher end up becoming the PM?

None of the 2nd intifada is Israel's fault. I seem to recall they offered 97% of PLO demands. If the PLO made a counter-proposal Israel would bear some responsibility, but Arafat had been planning the intifada before Camp David and wanted to go through with it instead of making peace. He didn't even make a counter-offer and thus didn't want peace.