NationStates Jolt Archive

Indonesian authorities today announced foreign aid workers in Aceh province, where the government has long battled separatist guerillas, must have military escorts, raising new concerns about aid bottlenecks.

Um ... first they say that US military personnel devoting thousands of man-hours to helping those ruined by the tsunami, then they say all aid workers must have "military escorts' ( one must conclude they mean Indonesian military escorts ) ... what's wrong with this picture? Could it be the government would prefer that less aid ( or even NO aid ) reach Aceh province?

And now this ...

Troop Escorts For Aid Workers
CNN (BANDA ACEH, Indonesia JAN. 13)

The Indonesian military has ordered troops to escort aid workers into the country's tsunami stricken Aceh province because of alleged rebel activity, according to The Associated Press. But the army has said soldiers for such an exercise may be unavailable due to a lack of troop numbers. The statement is the latest in a series of security demands by Jakarta, which is attempting to exert more control over aid operations in Aceh. Jakarta has also told aid workers and reporters to keep the military informed about their locations and travel plans in the region, especially if venturing outside Banda Aceh or Meulobah.

It's their country - it's their disaster. If they want to make some rules, so be it.

How is that arrogant?

Perhaps they're suspicious that not all the American "aid workers" may be entirely focussed on aid ...

I will at this point note that for a quarter century the UK and US massively funded and supplied arms to the Indonesian regime that they put into power, as they subjugated Aceh. The reasoning for this was apparently something to do with a bulwark against communism, though the policy actually continued for several years after the end of the Cold War.

These troubles, are the West coming up against the very bureaucracy they built. :)

Perhaps they're suspicious that all the American "aid workers" may not be entirely focussed on aid ...

Watching the news this morning. Apparently, there are also German and Australian military in Indonesia handing out aid. The restrictions apply to them as well.

In any case, Indonesia wants all military personnel and craft out of Indonesia in a few months, no matter who it is.

So it's not just Americans.

I think that they're sensitive to their own sovereignty, and the problems in that region of their own country.

I still don't see how that is arrogant. Assertive, perhaps, but being assertive about your own country isn't arrogance.

This has been going on for years. They don't let journalists speak to the citizens there, either. I saw part of an ABC (that's our Australian Broadcasting Corporation, not the American ABC) report a while back by a man who left the army's "sanctuary" and managed to contact and and film his stay with the rebels which was quite interesting. The Indonesians were not impressed...but unfortunately I didn't catch all of the report. The army's tactics are quite brutal, from what I gathered and they'd like to keep them very quiet.

I will at this point note that for a quarter century the UK and US massively funded and supplied arms to the Indonesian regime that they put into power, as they subjugated Aceh. The reasoning for this was apparently something to do with a bulwark against communism, though the policy actually continued for several years after the end of the Cold War.

These troubles, are the West coming up against the very bureaucracy they built. :)
It must be nice to live in some country somewhere which has never made a mistake. Countries, like people, make the best decisions they can at the time they make them based on data they feel is accurate.

Countries, like people, make errors in judgement, errors in planning, errors in execution. I'm not saying any errors per se were or were not involved in this, all I'm saying is that any country would be unable to withstand such criticial scrutiny of the history of their foreign policy. Hindsight, as they say, is a wonderful thing. :)

Hindsight? C'mon. We're not talking the mists of time here. It was all OK until only a few years ago. Now the complaints about a culture of secrecy? What do they expect? For a switch to be thrown and a culture of government openness to instantly emerge?

It must be nice to live in some country somewhere which has never made a mistake

Andorra? :p

Perhaps they're suspicious that not all the American "aid workers" may be entirely focussed on aid ...

What else could the US be focused on there? Seems there is not much there to spy on.

What else could the US be focused on there? Seems there is not much there to spy on.
There was a vast communist conspiracy justifying enormous military aid expenditure until only a few years ago... :eek:

What else could the US be focused on there? Seems there is not much there to spy on.

Aceh is in the midst of a decades-long struggle for independence.

Aceh is in the midst of a decades-long struggle for independence.
Yeah, like I was saying, the grand communist conspiracy. :p

Yeah, like I was saying, the grand communist conspiracy. :p

Now I suppose it's the grand islamic conspiracy.

There was a vast communist conspiracy justifying enormous military aid expenditure until only a few years ago... :eek:
\
The US has so many other ways of getting information, as well as the other countries supplying aid, i doubt they would put spies in this way. As well, you have to realize that many of these countries already have spies in place.

Soldiers delivering food and supplies are not going to collect much intelligence.

Now if the US wanted to sow the seeds of uprising there.....or supply the rebels that are there....

But the US would NEVER do that.

Indeed, funny how the sands of politics shift.

Now I suppose it's the grand islamic conspiracy.

http://www.asia-pacific-action.org/southeastasia/indonesia/netnews/2003/ind_20v7.htm#Aceh

Within the article "Indonesia captures and kills rebels" it says "The region has a distinct language, culture and a stricter brand of Islam than practiced in the rest of Indonesia." So you are likely right.

Or maybe not...

http://www.asia-pacific-action.org/southeastasia/indonesia/netnews/2003/ind_20v7.htm#Aceh

Seems to suggest otherwise.

Well, hurry up and put a label on them so we can start bombing them...

Well, hurry up and put a label on them so we can start bombing them...

I was wrong, I edited that post :)

What else could the US be focused on there? Seems there is not much there to spy on.

From an Indonesian point of view? World domination. There is quite a bit of suspicion of Americans trying to take over/ pushing their culture upon natives.

Snip

Let me ask you this, Eutrusca:

How would you feel about soldiers from a country you view as hostile coming into the US unfettered, regardless of what their stated goal was?

From an Indonesian point of view? World domination. There is quite a bit of suspicion of Americans trying to take over/ pushing their culture upon natives.

The Indonesians have apparently made it clear to OTHER non-American armed forces (Chinese, Australian, German) that they don't want their troops there, either, after three months. And they don't want those troops (who are on the ground in Aceh) to set up camp either, or carry their guns either.

and they want them to have Indonesian Army escorts, too.

So it's not just mistrust of the Americans.

From an Indonesian point of view? World domination. There is quite a bit of suspicion of Americans trying to take over/ pushing their culture upon natives.

No, it's more that the Indonesian government doesn't want any publicity going into its activities there.

No, it's more that the Indonesian government doesn't want any publicity going into its activities there.

Shock and horror! You mean to tell me that there's a country doing bad things that it wants to keep secret - and it's not the United States!

I had no idea, because you know, everyone on this forum has been telling me that the United States is the ONLY evil country in the world doing bad things in secret...

Shock and horror! You mean to tell me that there's a country doing bad things that it wants to keep secret - and it's not the United States!

I had no idea, because you know, everyone on this forum has been telling me that the United States is the ONLY evil country in the world doing bad things in secret...

Don't be silly. All countries are evil. :p

No, it's more that the Indonesian government doesn't want any publicity going into its activities there.

How often have you been to Indonesia? How many people do you know who go there regularly? How much have you looked into Indonesian culture?

I can assure you that mistrust of the US government, and the West in general, is very prevalent.

Shock and horror! You mean to tell me that there's a country doing bad things that it wants to keep secret - and it's not the United States!

I had no idea, because you know, everyone on this forum has been telling me that the United States is the ONLY evil country in the world doing bad things in secret...
Wadda ya know! We were wrong.
Who da thunk it?
:)

How often have you been to Indonesia?

Haven't been.

How many people do you know who go there regularly?

A huge number of Australians, and I know some Indonesians personally. They are our second closest neighbour, after all.

How much have you looked into Indonesian culture?

So their distrust is purely cultural? Nonsense.

I can assure you that mistrust of the US government, and the West in general, is very prevalent.

Can you also assure me that the Indonesian government has never been known to be dictatorial, the Indonesian army is corruption and brutality free, and a perfectly stable democracy where human rights are cherished above all else?

I'm not stupid enough to believe that all Indonesians love us- the Bali bombings were primarily targeted against westerners, particularly Australians, but its stupid to believe that the Indonesian government isn't trying to cover up what is happening in Aceh.

In another more recent thread here, it appears that the real reason the Indonesians want these restrictions is to keep aid away from the Aceh region because they've been oppressing them.


But, some people on this forum are not going to believe that, because only the United States is evil, and only the United States oppresses people.

Certainly not Indonesia, and certainly not part of their own country.

Actually, I agree that's what they are doing. I'm just surprised people have discovered it now after they have been doing it for a quarter of a century at our request. Like, where have you been?

But, some people on this forum are not going to believe that, because only the United States is evil, and only the United States oppresses people.

Certainly not Indonesia, and certainly not part of their own country.

I really don't understand. I mean, I disagree with the USA's foreign policy and many of its actions (though certainly not attempting to get aid into the area) too. But what's wrong with criticizing the Indonesian government for what it is just to disagree with the US on yet another point?

So their distrust is purely cultural? Nonsense.

Please point out exactly where I said that?

However, their distrust is certainly largely cultural - and largely due to a bias instilled in them very early in life.

Can you also assure me that the Indonesian government has never been known to be dictatorial, the Indonesian army is corruption and brutality free, and a perfectly stable democracy where human rights are cherished above all else?

Find me any country meeting this description.

I'm not stupid enough to believe that all Indonesians love us- the Bali bombings were primarily targeted against westerners, particularly Australians, but its stupid to believe that the Indonesian government isn't trying to cover up what is happening in Aceh.

It is equally stupid to believe that your average Indonesian (government or not) is going to be ok with seeing Western soldiers tromping around their land armed to the teeth.

Find me any country meeting this description.

Not possible, but seriously, Indonesia is still basically in transition from a semi-fascist regime.


It is equally stupid to believe that your average Indonesian (government or not) is going to be ok with seeing Western soldiers tromping around their land armed to the teeth.

Fine. But explain why the area has been basically locked off to all foreigners for many years now (before this tsunami) when they are free to travel to most other areas (curiously, they also blocked access into East Timor before it's independence. Funny, that.)

I really don't understand. I mean, I disagree with the USA's foreign policy and many of its actions (though certainly not attempting to get aid into the area) too. But what's wrong with criticizing the Indonesian government for what it is just to disagree with the US on yet another point?

I think you're missing the point.

It has just come out that the real reason the Indonesian government wants the following conditions:

a) no US aircraft overflights without their permission
b) no aircraft from any country landing in Indonesia to deliver aid without Indonesian military on board
c) no military from any country with any weapons in Indonesia
d) no military from any country with a base camp on Indonesian soil
e) no military from any country in Indonesia after a few months

is because the Indonesians are, and have been, oppressing the people in Aceh, and want to stifle the aid that the region will receive. They have also mandated that ALL aid workers, even the cute unarmed European types, will have Indonesian military escorts at all times - or else.

So, does this sound like rampant anti-Americanism, or does it sound like the Indonesian government taking it upon itself to screw the Aceh region when it's down? :eek:

So, does this sound like rampant anti-Americanism, or does it sound like the Indonesian government taking it upon itself to screw the Aceh region when it's down? :eek:
Hey, I am in full agreement with you. I'm just astonished why you are shocked by it when they have already been screwing them for decades at the West's request? :confused:

I think you're missing the point.

It has just come out that the real reason the Indonesian government wants the following conditions:

a) no US aircraft overflights without their permission
b) no aircraft from any country landing in Indonesia to deliver aid without Indonesian military on board
c) no military from any country with any weapons in Indonesia
d) no military from any country with a base camp on Indonesian soil
e) no military from any country in Indonesia after a few months

is because the Indonesians are, and have been, oppressing the people in Aceh, and want to stifle the aid that the region will receive. They have also mandated that ALL aid workers, even the cute unarmed European types, will have Indonesian military escorts at all times - or else.

So, does this sound like rampant anti-Americanism, or does it sound like the Indonesian government taking it upon itself to screw the Aceh region when it's down? :eek:

Oh no, I got that point and understand completely. Like I said, they've been forcing journalists to take military escorts for years as well. (it's late, so if I wasn't making sense or something that's why...i was meaning Demipublicents in that post you quoted btw :p)

It's been obvious what they've been up to for years, at least over here. Maybe now the US will start paying interest...

No, it's more that the Indonesian government doesn't want any publicity going into its activities there.I agree.

Oh no, I got that point and understand completely. Like I said, they've been forcing journalists to take military escorts for years as well. (it's late, so if I wasn't making sense or something that's why...i was meaning Demipublicents in that post you quoted btw :p)

It's been obvious what they've been up to for years, at least over here. Maybe now the US will start paying interest...
The US Gov was perfectly aware of the situation, The American public is not aware...only because the US media was avoiding the subject.

we supported Suharto because he was an "ally", just like Saddam was an "ally".

The reason that troops have been asked to leave within three months is simple, the Indonesian President was pressured by their government to set a date for the withdrawal of foreign troops. They do not want us there for perpetuity, which is understandable. I imagine that in 3 months many troops would have left, but I suspect that where there are people in need that can only be helped by outsiders we will be allowed to stay and help, providing that the government likes them.

...where there are people in need that can only be helped by outsiders we will be allowed to stay and help, providing that the government likes them.
The region that needs neutral ousiders is ...Aceh.

I don't find this arrogant. I find this shameful. They are not doing this out of arrogance, I believe, but it is because they want to keep the spotlight away from Aceh. With their civil war, the last thing they need is the world spotlight shimmering on them. That I can see. But even worse, they will not allow aid workers outside Banda Aceh without escort. This I see as dirty fighting, as the Indonesians are using these aid workers as pawns in their war.
I also didn't like how they won't allow the Marines to set up camp on Indonesian soil. I mean, how will they able to provide humanitarian support in the two remaining months?

Hey, I am in full agreement with you. I'm just astonished why you are shocked by it when they have already been screwing them for decades at the West's request? :confused:
Well, I am. The government in Indonesia has just changed. The last president was actually pro-Western.

The US Gov was perfectly aware of the situation, The American public is not aware...only because the US media was avoiding the subject.

That's what I mean :)

we supported Suharto because he was an "ally", just like Saddam was an "ally".

That's right.

Hey, I am in full agreement with you. I'm just astonished why you are shocked by it when they have already been screwing them for decades at the West's request? :confused:

I'm wondering why the American press seems shocked - and some posters here seem to think that the US wanted to put armed soldiers in to take the place over, and they also believed that Indonesia was rightfully keeping armed US soldiers out.... they could scarcely believe that it was to keep EVERYONE from seeing what's going on in Aceh.

I'm wondering why the American press seems shocked - and some posters here seem to think that the US wanted to put armed soldiers in to take the place over, and they also believed that Indonesia was rightfully keeping armed US soldiers out.... they could scarcely believe that it was to keep EVERYONE from seeing what's going on in Aceh.

i think it's mostly the fact that the press very rarely actually investigates anything, prefering to just get information from one of the various talking heads or government officials. and nobody had bothered to give them any stories recently on the aceh rebellion, so it obviously must not exist. it was hard enough to get the press to cover east timor, and that was easy to portary as downright fluffy by comparison. you also don't ever hear much about the free papua movement either...

the press is utter crap (and for some reason has come to the belief that analysis consists of having two blowhards yell at each other), and the moderately 'informed' american public therefore tends to not have much of a clue other than the bullshit that has been passed on to them.