NationStates Jolt Archive

This is an interesting quote about the growth of France's Islamic population. Apparently, Muslims may yet "conquer" France by birthrate, having been unable to do so by force of arms.

"If current birthrates and immigration patterns continue, France will be a Muslim country sometime in this century. When Notre Dame is a mosque, and Paris has a Grand Mufti, let's see how smug the French are about their superior culture." --Don Feder

Perhaps. And? Whats it to you? Afterall thats what the US is planning for the rest of Europe as well.

Perhaps. And? Whats it to you? Afterall thats what the US is planning for the rest of Europe as well.
The US is behind the islamic take over of europe?
Tell us more sim!

Perhaps. And? Whats it to you? Afterall thats what the US is planning for the rest of Europe as well.
There's really something wrong with your thought processes. :eek:

There's really something wrong with your thought processes. :eek:
Shhh! It will be funny

The US is behind the islamic take over of europe?
Tell us more sim!
Who has an active interest to get Turkey into the EU and demanded we'd set a date for negotiations? Bush.

Afterall thats what the US is planning for the rest of Europe as well.
You've listened to Rammstein's Amerika too much.

Perhaps. And? Whats it to you? Afterall thats what the US is planning for the rest of Europe as well.
Oh shiiit...he's on to us. I'd best tell my Haliburton cronies that we've been found out...

Who has an active interest to get Turkey into the EU and demanded we'd set a date for negotiations? Bush.
Tell us more than that! We are bored and need entertainment

You've listened to Rammstein's Amerika too much.
Right. :rolleyes:

Who has an active interest to get Turkey into the EU and demanded we'd set a date for negotiations? Bush.
More of an attempt to europanize Turkey then anything. He wants to drag them into the modern age.

Tell us more than that! We are bored and need entertainment
Then go play with yourself. Should keep you occupied for a while.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2564339.stm

I have to admit, that song has a catchy tune and DOES make a bit of sense.

Oh shiiit...he's on to us. I'd best tell my Haliburton cronies that we've been found out...
If you could tell your McDonalds cronies to bring back supersizing It would be appreciated, these wussy extra large portions just dont do it.

More of an attempt to europanize Turkey then anything. He wants to drag them into the modern age.
Yes of course. Bush and the US are our friends.... :rolleyes:

Then go play with yourself. Should keep you occupied for a while.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2564339.stm
Tell us even more.

Tell us even more.
Why should I? I know where you stand.

Tell us more than that! We are bored and need entertainment
Well, since the secrets out I might as well tell you all about it, seeing as I'll be testifying before the Senate about this tomorrow morning...

The unpublished portion of PNAC has a design to relocate the center of western culture to the United States. To do this we'd either have to take out Europe, or change European culture.

Changing their culture is far more...civilized. And as such we decided to capitalize on a trend, islamic immigration to European nations. We decided to pay off the leaders of various islamic countries to export their citizens to Europe. Initially the tough German immigration laws were a problem, but since we got those repealed, we have been able to speed up the process tenfold.

Oh yeah, might as well reveal who I really am...

yours truly,
-Vice President Dick Cheney

Why should I? I know where you stand.
Cos i reckon if we get you talking enough you will slip up and reveal your secret recipe for Kartoffelsuppe.

Well, since the secrets out I might as well tell you all about it, seeing as I'll be testifying before the Senate about this tomorrow morning...

The unpublished portion of PNAC has a design to relocate the center of western culture to the United States. To do this we'd either have to take out Europe, or change European culture.

Changing their culture is far more...civilized. And as such we decided to capitalize on a trend, islamic immigration to European nations. We decided to pay off the leaders of various islamic countries to export their citizens to Europe. Initially the tough German immigration laws were a problem, but since we got those repealed, we have been able to speed up the process tenfold.

Eventhough this was meant as sarcasm. But that about sums it up. America's agenda since the end of WWII was to destroy European cultures.

Cos i reckon if we get you talking enough you will slip up and reveal your secret recipe for Kartoffelsuppe.
http://www.marions-kochbuch.de/rezept/0750.htm
Here you go.

Why should I? I know where you stand.
I have forgotten where I stand tho- could you remind me while i try and translate that recipe?

Eventhough this was meant as sarcasm. But that about sums it up. America's agenda since the end of WWII was to destroy European cultures.

I hope that's sarcasm, too.

I hope that's sarcasm, too.
Nope.

Then go play with yourself. Should keep you occupied for a while.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2564339.stm

Old news. Wed. Dec 11th. Also put out by the totaly unbiased, completely objective BBC. :gundge:

I think that there would be civil war before any of the Western European countries became Muslim.

I think that there would be civil war before any of the Western European countries became Muslim.
why?

Eventhough this was meant as sarcasm. But that about sums it up. America's agenda since the end of WWII was to destroy European cultures.
Or maybe America's just been trying to make a quick buck...

Old news. Wed. Dec 11th. Also put out by the totaly unbiased, completely objective BBC. :gundge:
its a damn sight more unbiased and objective than 90% of the worlds media organisations

I think that there would be civil war before any of the Western European countries became Muslim.
Thats what the US is hoping for as well. After that the utter destruction of the European cultures would be complete. Whats left will be absorbed into the US "culture".

Thats what the US is hoping for as well. After that the utter destruction of the European cultures would be complete. Whats left will be absorbed into the US "culture".

Conflict makes cultures stronger as nationalism and patriotism takes hold.

Conflict makes cultures stronger as nationalism and patriotism takes hold.
Yeah right. WWI&II didn't do much to strengthen European cultures. Didn't do much for nationalism and patriotism either.
It made us weaker. Allowing the Americanism to take hold.

Here, let's ponder on this.

If the US were able to get a civil war in Europe going, with the continent ravaged by mass chaos and violence, we could come crashing in to the defense of western culture. Some line like "Keeping the world safe for democracy"

Here, let's ponder on this.

If the US were able to get a civil war in Europe going, with the continent ravaged by mass chaos and violence, we could come crashing in to the defense of western culture. Some line like "Keeping the world safe for democracy"
Thats the plan.

Here, let's ponder on this.

If the US were able to get a civil war in Europe going, with the continent ravaged by mass chaos and violence, we could come crashing in to the defense of western culture. Some line like "Keeping the world safe for democracy"
Yeah I think VW is on a winner- the US has a secret plan to impoverish its biggest customer through civil war therby rendering them unable to purchase US ,,,,where was I going with this?

Who cares if France gets a majority Muslim population?

Yeah I think VW is on a winner- the US has a secret plan to impoverish its biggest customer through civil war therby rendering them unable to purchase US ,,,,where was I going with this?
No. The plan is to create an American outpost. Sattelite states if you like. They would still buy US goods. But they would not object anymore to US policies. Neither would they compete with US businesses anymore.

Thats what the US is hoping for as well. After that the utter destruction of the European cultures would be complete. Whats left will be absorbed into the US "culture".

See, these statements require evidence to back them up. I mean, maybe the US is backing turkey's bid to the EU becuase we want to islamisize Europe...or maybe its becuase Turkiey let us use their bases for the invasion of Iraq, and since Turkey wants to get into the EU and we want to have their bases open for future operations, we are backing their bid...or maybe its becuase the majority of our foreign textiles are produced in Turkey, and their adimittance to the EU would boots their economic development and provide security and thus profit American busniess that do business there... either/or, really.

Yeah I think VW is on a winner- the US has a secret plan to impoverish its biggest customer through civil war therby rendering them unable to purchase US ,,,,where was I going with this?
You were showing how silly it is to think that we want Europe in shambles. And I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Who cares if France gets a majority Muslim population?
Clearly the french dont, so why should we?

Clearly the french dont, so why should we?
And you know this how?

And you know this how?
The pisspoor showing of anti islamic parties in france in elections shows that while some frenchmen are very vocal on the creeping islamic takeover of france, the bulk of frenchmen dont give a fuck.

The pisspoor showing of anti islamic parties in france in elections shows that while some frenchmen are very vocal on the creeping islamic takeover of france, the bulk of frenchmen dont give a fuck.
People though the same about the Dutch.

People though the same about the Dutch.
People still think the same, europe is going to be islamic and nothing can be done to stop it.

The pisspoor showing of anti islamic parties in france in elections shows that while some frenchmen are very vocal on the creeping islamic takeover of france, the bulk of frenchmen dont give a fuck.
I salute the bulk of Frenchmen for not giving a fuck. It's not like North African countries are invading them like the Moors did to Spain.

Ok, yeah, just so we know, I've always had an image of VW as a sort of sane person, even if I didn't always agree with him.

I never really fully understood his reasons for being against the US, but I'd always assumed that they were either instinctual or based on real stuff.

But this thread has shown me more than I really care to know. I mean, you do realize how screwed up this theory of yours is, right? I mean, hell, for 45 odd years after the end of WWII we were busy just trying to not die in a nuclear holocaust, let alone worry about making Europe into an American colony. I mean, this idea is so totally twisted that it isn't even funny.

I'm not joking, I really don't see how anyone could think this way.

Yeah right. WWI&II didn't do much to strengthen European cultures. Didn't do much for nationalism and patriotism either.
It made us weaker. Allowing the Americanism to take hold.


Made who weaker?? You do realise that there are very strong national identities in Europe don't you?

NB... 1870 Italy united after years of civil war.
1871 Germany united since the days of the Holy Roman Empire due in part to the Franco-Prussian war. To name just two examples of when warfare give rise to stronger cultual and national identities.

What an opportunity for Bush , He can attack the french and muslims at the same time. Never underestmate the power of stupid people in lage groups Ie. The Republican Party. The War On Terror what is it their is terrorism in lots of countries. What is Bush gonna do attack them all ? He may as well seeing how it will build his mighty coalition of the willing bigger. Q- How do you get a bigger coalition for bogus wars ? A- Attack other countries for bogus reasons and then you have your army in that country that way they are technically taking place in the war on terror. What Bush has done has made a war that will never end. Sounds like a good song. This is the war that never ends , some people started fighting it not knowing what it was and they'll continue fighting forever just because (repeat infinite times ) Two anti war sites to check out
-www.hategun.com & www.michaelmoore.com

PS Look for Fahrenheit 9/11 to be up for an Oscar in the best picture category & a big congratulations to Michael for his Peoples choice award win for Best Film. More to come.

Ok, yeah, just so we know, I've always had an image of VW as a sort of sane person, even if I didn't always agree with him.

I never really fully understood his reasons for being against the US, but I'd always assumed that they were either instinctual or based on real stuff.

But this thread has shown me more than I really care to know. I mean, you do realize how screwed up this theory of yours is, right? I mean, hell, for 45 odd years after the end of WWII we were busy just trying to not die in a nuclear holocaust, let alone worry about making Europe into an American colony. I mean, this idea is so totally twisted that it isn't even funny.

I'm not joking, I really don't see how anyone could think this way.
It was worth it to get his recipe for spud soup.

It was worth it to get his recipe for spud soup.
well, of course.

Made who weaker?? You do realise that there are very strong national identities in Europe don't you?
Turn on a radio or the TV. What kind of music, if you can even call it that, do you hear the most?

NB... 1870 Italy united after years of civil war.
1871 Germany united since the days of the Holy Roman Empire due in part to the Franco-Prussian war. To name just two examples of when warfare give rise to stronger cultual and national identities.
Italy united in 1859. And Germany was all but united in the days of the Holy Roman Empire. And now please show me how the last 2 world wars have strenghtened the European cultures? Cause I fail to see it.

Man I didn't know Bush dictated French immigration law. In fact I didn't know Bush dictated immigration law to the rest of the EU. You know it just goes to show you how wrong I could be, here I thought the EU wouldn't let Bush dictate their foreign policy much less their domestic immigration laws.

I had no clue! Not a clue the EU regard of Bush was so high, but according to our good friend Von Witzleben anything he says goes by God! No wonder Bush is our President with the EU loving him so much. Must be like that Jerry Lewis thing with the French.

Man I didn't know Bush dictated French immigration law. In fact I didn't know Bush dictated immigration law to the rest of the EU. You know it just goes to show you how wrong I could be, here I thought the EU wouldn't let Bush dictate their foreign policy much less their domestic immigration laws.

I had no clue! Not a clue the EU regard of Bush was so high, but according to our good friend Von Witzleben anything he says goes by God! No wonder Bush is our President with the EU loving him so much. Must be like that Jerry Lewis thing with the French.
let alone the fact that Bush was influencing this before he was born...

People still think the same, europe is going to be islamic and nothing can be done to stop it.
That remains to be seen. If the plan of our arch enemy, the US, is succesfull we will all be singing the star spangled banner.

Man I didn't know Bush dictated French immigration law. In fact I didn't know Bush dictated immigration law to the rest of the EU. You know it just goes to show you how wrong I could be, here I thought the EU wouldn't let Bush dictate their foreign policy much less their domestic immigration laws.
He doesn't. But he can push Turkey down our throats which will be eaualy effective.

That remains to be seen. If the plan of our arch enemy, the US, is succesfull we will all be singing the star spangled banner.
Thats the plan of the US for its biggest market to become controlled by anti us muslims and to make the icbm arsenals of france and the uk fall under islamic control?.
The plan of the US to change its friend and ally into a enemy?
Sim I take my hat of to ya buddy , even lacadaemon would be proud of this :D

let alone the fact that Bush was influencing this before he was born...


I know amazing! Brilliant!

Here I thought Bush was a born again burned out party boy, but apparently he was dictating European domestic politics when he was a fetus! No wonder he's against abortion, Bush's fetal period must of been one of the most productive times of his life!

:rolleyes: It's a longterm strategy. Which started with the end of WWII. Allthough the Soviets probably slowed it down a bit. With the cold war and all the US didn't have the time to fully concentrate on it. Now with Turkey they are trying to make up for lost time.

He doesn't. But he can push Turkey down our throats which will be eaualy effective.

Then get your EU buddies together and demonstrate against it. Talk to some labor unions and tell them now would be a good time to call National Strikes, or at least threaten to call strikes. If you don't want Turkey I'm sure she'll fold into a Central Asia mutual defense and trade grouping.

Of course all the pipelines for the new vast deposits of Central Asian oil are, (and more will be) going through Turkey, which is why the EU might actually want them in the EU, despite xenophobic fears.

Then get your EU buddies together and demonstrate against it. Talk to some labor unions and tell them now would be a good time to call National Strikes, or at least threaten to call strikes. If you don't want Turkey I'm sure she'll fold into a Central Asia mutual defense and trade grouping.
I'm active in my own way.

Of course all the pipelines for the new vast deposits of Central Asian oil are, (and more will be) going through Turkey, which is why the EU might actually want them in the EU, despite xenophobic fears.
Just another carrot whith which they try to convince us Turkey must be a member. While the same could be reached with a privileged partnership.

This is an interesting quote about the growth of France's Islamic population. Apparently, Muslims may yet "conquer" France by birthrate, having been unable to do so by force of arms.


It is against Qur'an to force your children - or anyone - into Islam. You may raise them in Muslim tradition, but they are not Muslim until they declare shihadah and they must make that choice for themselves.

It isn't birthrate ... you'll find it's conversion.

With so many people converting to Islam - many of them intelligent, educated, rational people (myself included) - in recent years. Don't you think that maybe, just maybe, Islam isn't so bad?

Why is France so special? In 50 years the USA will be a hispanic country, Israel will be an arab country and Germany will probably be Turkish. Demographics are a bitch for white peoples with their low birthrates. Name one country which will have a stable white majority population in 2100 and I will give you a cookie.

Why is France so special? In 50 years the USA will be a hispanic country, Israel will be an arab country and Germany will probably be Turkish. Demographics are a bitch for white peoples with their low birthrates. Name one country which will have a stable white majority population in 2100 and I will give you a cookie.


Iceland.

I want my cookie.

It is against Qur'an to force your children - or anyone - into Islam. You may raise them in Muslim tradition, but they are not Muslim until they declare shihadah and they must make that choice for themselves.

It isn't birthrate ... you'll find it's conversion.
Nope it's birthrate. Given current muslim immigration and birthrate(the birthrate being 2 to 3 times that of France's) France will be more arab and african muslim then French in 20-40 years depending on how trends hold up.

Iceland.

I want my cookie.
COOKIES FOR YOU.

Sim I take my hat of to ya buddy , even lacadaemon would be proud of this :D

Yes, his theory shows promise. I like it.

However, the truth of the matter is that we - the white christian population of the US - are buiding a huge secret spaceship which we intend to use to leave earth and move on to "greener pastures." That's why we don't give a fuck about the enviroment, nevermind european "culture." And I use culture in the broadest possible sense of the word.

On the other hand, there is fuck all chance of getting our security deposit back.

Edit: I've been told by my friends at the CIA, that we might let a few of the smarter jews come along too; as long as they are not to ethnic and promise to leave their Woody Allen movies behind.

Iceland.

I want my cookie.
Go Iceland is cool.
Þetta er sjálfsagt.

Iceland.

I want my cookie.

Whats your address? It will be shipped immediately.

PS. I am not really sure about Iceland, but I'll let it slide. It has less than 300,000 people which means a boatload or two of immigrants and its over for the white Icelander's little majority. Luckily for them, I have no idea how any immigrants could possibly get there.

Nope it's birthrate. Given current muslim immigration and birthrate(the birthrate being 2 to 3 times that of France's) France will be more arab and african muslim then French in 20-40 years depending on how trends hold up.

Arab and African, maybe, but you cannot be born a Muslim any more than you can be born a Christian. Islam is a religion, a way of life, not a race.

Uruguay. I want a cookie!!

Uruguay. I want a cookie!!

That would entail argentina and chile then too, would it not?

Montevideo is cool.

Uruguay. I want a cookie!!

There is only one cookie. Ask Curtis E LeMay for a bite!

Arab and African, maybe, but you cannot be born a Muslim any more than you can be born a Christian. Islam is a religion, a way of life, not a race.
Face it, the Arabs and Africans of Muslim background in France are very very likely to call themselves Muslim when they grow up. These kids aren't accepting Islam just because they think its good and wonderful, there are powerful social and familial pressures that have nothing to do with any religious doctrine. Basically they are Muslim out of habit. So there is a direct and undeniable correlation between the high birthrate of Muslim families in Europe and the increasing number of Muslims, making birthrate much more influential than conversion in the spread of Islam. And in France, most of those Muslims(-by-birth) tend to accept a more conservative and restrictive form of Islam, they are not like the rational converts like yourself. Hence the violent anti semitism and relatively reactionary opinions toward social issues among European Muslims.

That would entail argentina and chile then too, would it not?

Montevideo is cool.
Two cookies for you.

There is only one cookie. Ask Curtis E LeMay for a bite!
Damn. Good thing I have my own vault of cookies.

Do you all know that when put to the question of what they wanted to see more of in film and culture, the French population overwhelmingly chose Napoleon. All these predicitons about end of French civilization I think are grossly premature. After all, if youll all remember, it was the French King Charles Martel that turned back the Muslim invaiders in the 8th Century AD.

As a side note I do not find any credince amont the accusations of Americans wanting to turn Europe into the USA. Sometimes I think people turn politics into melodrama. If anything, all sane Americans will tell you they have great respect for their European forefathers. But its true, in every Europeanish country, as the great Historian James Burke predicted, the death of the West is indeed at hand. Of course, conversely to the decline of Rome, our decline is based on the downfall of Christianity, not its rise.

Does anyone think a muslim Europe might not suck? Oh it certainly very well could suck very hard, but is there a chance it could be like the old Muslim world, the Mulsim world which kept the candle of science and enlightenment burning throughout the dark ages, the Muslim world which made tremendous advancements in math and science, and which translated great classic works of philosophy and spread rationality?

It is against Qur'an to force your children - or anyone - into Islam. You may raise them in Muslim tradition, but they are not Muslim until they declare shihadah and they must make that choice for themselves.

It isn't birthrate ... you'll find it's conversion.

With so many people converting to Islam - many of them intelligent, educated, rational people (myself included) - in recent years. Don't you think that maybe, just maybe, Islam isn't so bad?

Yay, another post by Keruvalia! I just love these, I have to admit. You need to be real smart and tolerant when you start reading.

Sourate IV.89: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

IV.76: Those who believe fight in the cause of God.

IV.74: Let those who fight in the cause of God who barter the life of this world for that which is to come; for whoever fights on God's path, whether he is killed or triumphs, We will give him a handsome reward.

V.51: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

VIII.39-42: Say to the Infidels: if they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven; but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God's.

VIII.12: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

IX. 5-6: Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them.


Now, let's watch ol'Keru here trying to prove that "it's a mistranslation", as always.

About France. Mind if I talk about it, Keru? Most of the "smart" people "joining" Islam are born in immigrant families whose second, hell, even some of the third-generation don't yet speak french.

More and more people are realizing that of all the immigrant populations, only one has utterly failed to integrate itself, because it didn't even try. But too many socialists dwell in france, which has led to hallal cantinas in some french schools, the cancelation of "christ"mas in more than a few cities, the huge rise of antisemitism in general, fueled by the Middle-east conflict.

That's right, they are so scared of being so-called "assimilated" (something the europeans, asians, and other africans have managed to do while maintaining their identity) that they identify themselves with the palestinians instead of the french.

They do not learn Islam because they've thought about it and said "well, I'm so smart and I hate jews anyways, so I might as well convert", they do it because they do not talk to christians, jews, sikhs, hindi, and instead remain together.

Now, the french "p"Resident, Youssouf Ben Shirak as I like to call him, is certainly happy about the whole situation, but most people on the street now recognize for a fact that anti-white racism now exists. It's not a few klanists in the woods chanting about that; it's the rise of insecurity that helped this happen.

To say the truth, I don't really give a fuck about the situation, either. I know a few languages myself and I wouldn't mind moving from this soon-to-be islamic "republic".

blablabla, death to amerika, tinfoil hat monologue, one-lined replies to arguments, more blablabla...

You're a very special person, and I can think of only one word for people who choose mecca-cola over coca-cola, or the red army choirs over rock'n'roll : blöde arschloch.

Okay, I lied, two words.

You're a very special person, and I can think of only one word for people who choose mecca-cola over coca-cola, or the red army choirs over rock'n'roll : blöde arschloch.

Okay, I lied, two words.
I don't think that was a very good idea if you were planning to maintain your nation's current staus of existence.
That sure looked like a flame to me. I'd advise you to be more careful.

Now, let's watch ol'Keru here trying to prove that "it's a mistranslation", as always.

Nope ... not necessarily a mistranslation, just taken out of context. Can't really pull a single line out of Qur'an and use it as "Gospel Truth".

Actually, I don't recall ever saying anything about mistranslations when it comes to people posting things in Qur'an. If you could provide a link to a quote of mine about it, I'd appreciate it, but since I don't speak/read/write Arabic, I couldn't tell you if something is mistranslated or not - though your use of the Roman numbering system for the Surah is a little strange and your translation is not that of Yusuf Ali, who wrote the accepted English translation and I will use it as my basis.

But I'll break it down for you, if you like.

Surah 4:89 is speaking of people who demand you reject your faith. You damn well better believe that if you come to my house and demand I reject my faith, you'll get the business end of my boot up your tush.

Surah 4:74-79 (you only mention 74 and 76) speaks of fighting only for the cause of Allah and not for the cause of men (you know ... cause of men ... the reason 99% of all Christian wars were started ... greed, power, lust, etc). This is a bad message .... how?

Surah 5:51 speaks of not taking friends from among Jews and Christians *as protectors* (a tidbit your translation leaves out for some reason). Allah is the only protector.

I'm not sure where you're getting your translation of Surah 8:39-42 ... but I can't find any copy or transaltion of Qur'an that even comes close to matching what you've typed.

The beginning of al Anfal (Surah 8), which you've taken only verse 12, is actually a message of hope for soldiers in the field. Do you not support your nation's troops with messages of hopeful victory? *shrug* Maybe not.

You mention Surah 9:5-6, but don't post the entirety of Surah 9:5-6. You post one tiny part of it.

Look, man, I've taken the time to go through what you've posted. What you have isn't necessarily mistranslation, but it is incomplete. I can do the same thing to a Bible, picking words here and there, and rewrite it to make it look like Jesus had sex with pigs ... but that doesn't make what I've done true. Many copies of Yusuf Ali's translation of Qur'an into English abound on the internet. Grab one of those, read it, and decide for yourself.

However, seeing your post count, it is obvious what you're trying to do and will continue to try to do. I, however, will always be there debunking every attempt by every one of your incarnations to spread hatred through misinformation. I will never tire in that cause.

As for the rest of your drivel, I am a Jew ... my mother is a Jew ... my mother's family are Jews. I don't hate myself or my mother or her family. Frankly, I'm not really sure where you're going with all of this.

Read the quote in my sig. Be well and joy joy feelings all around.

You're a very special person, and I can think of only one word for people who choose mecca-cola over coca-cola, or the red army choirs over rock'n'roll : blöde arschloch.
Okay, I lied, two words.

At least get it right. blödes Arschloch.
And just because someone has another taste in softdrinks and music he is retarded and worth only your contempt? Is it only me or are you the one looking rather intolerant and ignorant?

You're a very special person, and I can think of only one word for people who choose mecca-cola over coca-cola, or the red army choirs over rock'n'roll : blöde arschloch.

Okay, I lied, two words.
Dude I know what arschloch is but what is blode?

blöde means stupid

blöde means stupid
Thanks man

blöde means stupid
No, Blode is that character from those wierd Flash cartoons on Rathergood.com(I think that's the right URL).
:D

At least get it right. blödes Arschloch.
And just because someone has another taste in softdrinks and music he is retarded and worth only your contempt? Is it only me or are you the one looking rather intolerant and ignorant?

You look to the form, but not to the meaning. I'm feeling exceptionnaly nice today, so I AM going to bother explainin' some stuff to you.

Coca-cola and Rock'n'roll are arguably the very icons of america, and, like it
or not, most of the entire western civilization. Against it used to be set the red choirs (which did have musical talent, mind you, but let's get on with it for argument's sake), and nowadays, the burnt-plastic-tasting but politically-motivated arabic colas. (zam-zam cola, mecca-cola, algeria-cola, a whole lot of them)

What VW criticized in his diatribe against America was american culture, which he assuredly despises because apparently, someone forced him to watch TV or listen to the radio.

Now, ask him to compare a virgin megastore in paris, and... um... well, pirated audio cassettes of "infidel radio" or infidel christian bibles that might earn you a nice trip to jail in any of these dictatures? (see the parrallel? communism in russia = dictature, islamic republic = dictature, and there's the reference to the cultural icon!)

Anyways. A less flamebait response would be "you're using the internet, and that just disqualifies you to criticize those that made it possible almost 60 years from now".

But really, should there be /sarcasm tags everywhere? :rolleyes:

Italy united in 1859. And Germany was all but united in the days of the Holy Roman Empire. And now please show me how the last 2 world wars have strenghtened the European cultures? Cause I fail to see it.[/QUOTE]

You should really by a history book as the kingdom of Italy was proclaimed in 1861, whilst total unification did not happen unto 1870.

Look, man, I've taken the time to go through what you've posted. What you have isn't necessarily mistranslation, but it is incomplete. I can do the same thing to a Bible, picking words here and there, and rewrite it to make it look like Jesus had sex with pigs ... but that doesn't make what I've done true. Many copies of Yusuf Ali's translation of Qur'an into English abound on the internet. Grab one of those, read it, and decide for yourself.


But in fact, Jesus didn't marry or have sex with nine-year olds. He didn't wipe out the arabic peninsula from any jews within. You certainly know about those episodes about muhammad, but you won't answer about it anyways, so I wonder why I even bother.


However, seeing your post count, it is obvious what you're trying to do and will continue to try to do. I, however, will always be there debunking every attempt by every one of your incarnations to spread hatred through misinformation. I will never tire in that cause.


The best part is that you didn't debunk anything. Post the entire sourates all you want, it's still there, and the context doesn't replace the fact that at its formation, Islam was by no means a religion of peace, and mahomet certainly not a man of peace.


As for the rest of your drivel, I am a Jew ... my mother is a Jew ... my mother's family are Jews. I don't hate myself or my mother or her family. Frankly, I'm not really sure where you're going with all of this.


They must be so proud. I'm not even going to comment the koran about what happens to apostates. You live in the states. We're talking about France. Honor crimes, lapidations and apostate killings have become a very real problem. On a monthly, sometimes biweekly basis. But nobody cares anymore, since it's "arab vs arab business", as we say.

Let's get back on track anyways : Islam and antisemitism in france are rampant, and are not the result of conversions, but shameful upbringing by irresponsible parents.

But in fact, Jesus didn't marry or have sex with nine-year olds.

Neither did Muhammed. It has been proven time and time and time again that Aisha was 14 when she married Muhammed and 17 when they consummated.

Cling to your ignorance, though. It will serve you well soon enough.

Islam and antisemitism in france are rampant, and are not the result of conversions, but shameful upbringing by irresponsible parents.

Islam is the result of shameful upbringing by irresponsible parents?

Geeze ... what bigot tree were you plucked from? Oh ... never mind ... France ... (oy) ... :rolleyes:

Neither did Muhammed. It has been proven time and time and time again that Aisha was 14 when she married Muhammed and 17 when they consummated.
Just out of curiosity what age was muhammed when he married a 14 year old and what age was he when he fucked a 17 year old, and how was it proven time and time and time again?

Neither did Muhammed. It has been proven time and time and time again that Aisha was 14 when she married Muhammed and 17 when they consummated.

Cling to your ignorance, though. It will serve you well soon enough.

Devout scholars don't agree with you. Time and time again. They even justify it... (http://www.jamaat.org/qa/ayeshara.html)

Look, call me a bigot or anything you want, I don't really care, they're only words.
Only white, non-muslim people can be called bigots, right? Beheading christians or jews is just an act of resistance, I suppose. Refusing to speak french when you've lived long enough in France for your grandson to hit maturity is not bigotry, nor is it a complete refusal to adapt to a host country. And black is white.

At least, I don't worship pedophiles... :)

EDIT : Turns out that scholars who justify this are more than a handful! (http://www.iol.ie/~afifi/BICNews/Sabeel/sabeel6.htm)

Just out of curiosity what age was muhammed when he married a 14 year old and what age was he when he fucked a 17 year old, and how was it proven time and time and time again?

What does it matter? It was 1400 years ago! Just a couple of generations ago, age of marriage was 15 in most states in the US. For 1400 years ago, Aisha was on the verge of being an "old maid" at 14.

Plenty of scholarly reviews out there on Aisha's age.

As for worshipping pedophiles, even if you consider Muhammed a pedophile ... *nobody* worships Muhammed.

What does it matter? You stated that it had been proven "time and time and time again" that aisha was 14 at the time of marriage and 17 at the time of consumation. I am asking you how this was proved time and time and time again.
Just so people wont think you are a lying son of a bitch; you know?Tell us how it was proved time and time and time again
Help me to help you, help me to help you , help me to help you.

Conquer by birth rate. That's a load of bullshit.
Islam is not genetic.
We have more to fear from capitalisation of France and the sell-out of democracy than from islam.
France has more influence on Maghreb than Maghreb has influence on France.

Plenty of scholarly reviews out there on Aisha's age.
there are? great! which of these scholarly reviews convinced you to make the statement that it has been proved time and time and time again that aisha was 14 at marriage and 17 at consumation?.

there are? great! which of these scholarly reviews convinced you to make the statement that it has been proved time and time and time again that aisha was 14 at marriage and 17 at consumation?.

Well, here's a good one:

“A great misconception prevails as to the age at which Aisha was taken in marriage by the Prophet. Ibn Sa‘d has stated in the Tabaqat that when Abu Bakr [father of Aisha] was approached on behalf of the Holy Prophet, he replied that the girl had already been betrothed to Jubair, and that he would have to settle the matter first with him. This shows that Aisha must have been approaching majority at the time. Again, the Isaba, speaking of the Prophet’s daughter Fatima, says that she was born five years before the Call and was about five years older than Aisha. This shows that Aisha must have been about ten years at the time of her betrothal to the Prophet, and not six years as she is generally supposed to be. This is further borne out by the fact that Aisha herself is reported to have stated that when the chapter [of the Holy Quran] entitled The Moon, the fifty-fourth chapter, was revealed, she was a girl playing about and remembered certain verses then revealed. Now the fifty-fourth chapter was undoubtedly revealed before the sixth year of the Call. All these considerations point to but one conclusion, viz., that Aisha could not have been less than ten years of age at the time of her nikah, which was virtually only a betrothal. And there is one report in the Tabaqat that Aisha was nine years of age at the time of nikah. Again it is a fact admitted on all hands that the nikah of Aisha took place in the tenth year of the Call in the month of Shawwal, while there is also preponderance of evidence as to the consummation of her marriage taking place in the second year of Hijra in the same month, which shows that full five years had elapsed between the nikah and the consummation. Hence there is not the least doubt that Aisha was at least nine or ten years of age at the time of betrothal, and fourteen or fifteen years at the time of marriage.”

-- Maulana Muhammad Ali "Living Thoughts of the Prophet Muhammad"

Research subsequent to the time of Maulana Muhammad Ali has shown that she was older than this. An excellent short work presenting such evidence is the Urdu pamphlet Rukhsati kai waqt Sayyida Aisha Siddiqa ki umar (‘The age of Lady Aisha at the time of the start of her married life’) by Abu Tahir Irfani.

The famous classical historian of Islam, Ibn Jarir Tabari, wrote in his ‘History’:

“In the time before Islam, Abu Bakr married two women. The first was Fatila daughter of Abdul Uzza, from whom Abdullah and Asma were born. Then he married Umm Ruman, from whom Abdur Rahman and Aisha were born. These four were born before Islam.”

Being born before Islam means being born before the Call.

The compiler of the famous Hadith collection Mishkat al-Masabih, Imam Wali-ud-Din Muhammad ibn Abdullah Al-Khatib, who died 700 years ago, has also written brief biographical notes on the narrators of Hadith reports. He writes under Asma, the older daughter of Abu Bakr:

“She was the sister of Aisha Siddiqa, wife of the Holy Prophet, and was ten years older than her. … In 73 A.H. … Asma died at the age of one hundred years.”

http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.gif

This would make Asma 28 years of age in 1 A.H., the year of the Hijra, thus making Aisha 18 years old in 1 A.H. So Aisha would be 19 years old at the time of the consummation of her marriage, and 14 or 15 years old at the time of her nikah. It would place her year of birth at four or five years before the Call.

I can get more if you like, but that should do for now.

Well, here's a good one:
This would make Asma 28 years of age in 1 A.H., the year of the Hijra, thus making Aisha 18 years old in 1 A.H. So Aisha would be 19 years old at the time of the consummation of her marriage, and 14 or 15 years old at the time of her nikah. It would place her year of birth at four or five years before the Call.

I can get more if you like, but that should do for now.
No you dont need to "get more" I am looking for what you clearly already have- a link backing up your assertion that :


It has been proven time and time and time again that Aisha was 14 when she married Muhammed and 17 when they consummated.

There is only one cookie. Ask Curtis E LeMay for a bite!
[ Eutrusca sits on the floor, staring at the cookie. Suddenly, it bends! How is this possible? ] There IS no cookie. :D

That remains to be seen. If the plan of our arch enemy, the US, is succesfull we will all be singing the star spangled banner.
You could do lots worse. Hmm. As a matter of fact, you already ARE! :D

No you dont need to "get more" I am looking for what you clearly already have- a link backing up your assertion that :

Bah ... 17 ... 19 ... the age ranges from scholar to scholar, come on ... it's very early in the morning where I'm at.

For the most part, Islamic scholars agree that Aisha was between 13 and 15 when she married and between 16 and 20 when it was consummated. Some do maintain that she was 9 when betrothed - which is entirely possible and I don't dispute that - but this "6 when married/9 when poked" business is a right out lie.

When concerning ones self with the age problem, I can only point out that women in Islam cannot be forced into marriage and the reason the space between betrothal and consummation is so long is because a woman who is given into marriage in adolescense has the right to break the deal.

As for links, I'm sorry. I don't like using the internet as a scholarly source. I could just as easily link you to a "my dog farts golden cheese wedges" site.

I can, however, refer you to the following books (which are most likely available at your local library, or perhaps on the net ... Google if you like):

Tirmidhi, "Abwab-ul-Manaqib", Chapters on Excellences, under ‘Virtues of Aisha’.
"Muslim Saints and Mystics", abridged English translation of "Tadhkirat-ul-Auliya", by A.J. Arberry

One link I will provide: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/058.sbt.html
go down to reports listed as Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234 and 236. (USC is pretty reliable)

That's Muhsin Khan’s English translation of "Bukhari" (see also Volume 3, Book 37, Number 494: Aisha's own words)

As for the other offhanded comments made about pedophelia, let's everyone try to remember that Mary was only 12 when she was given to Joseph, who was 90! (Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913 edition)

If that's not enough, then I give up.

if you moved to new country and had to go straight out to work in a factory for ten hours a day, support your entire family plus possibly your extended family back in your original country would you really have time for evening classes to learn french? :headbang:

if you moved to new country and had to go straight out to work in a factory for ten hours a day, support your entire family plus possibly your extended family back in your original country would you really have time for evening classes to learn french? :headbang:What are you talking about? Most of them already know french when they come to France because their country was colonized by the french. And 10 hours a day doesn't exist in France. This is not the US.

the islam bashing i've read so far on this thread is basically nuts. As someone has pointed out above, 14 was the legal marriage age in lots of the US not so long ago. furthermore, the vast majority of the population of turkey is muslim, but it is not a islamic state any more than france is a christian state. likewise tunisia. and imagining for one tiny moment that islam was the majority religion, so what? france sensibly has laws prohibiting religious interference in the life of the state.

the curiously german-centred desire to keep turkey out of the eu is equally illogical. Anybody subscribing to the theory that turks are both religious zealots and criminal masterminds, with dirty habits and natural enmity towards christian whites would benefit from learning about the rise of antisemitism in germany up to 1945. And anyone who doesn't want to live in an area where much of the population likes different food from them and prefers to speak another language is entitled to move house.

You could do lots worse. Hmm. As a matter of fact, you already ARE! :D
We aren't Americans. Yet.

We aren't Americans. Yet.
True. But I meant you could do worse than be Americans ... and you already ARE doing worse than being Americans. :D

the curiously german-centred desire to keep turkey out of the eu is equally illogical. Anybody subscribing to the theory that turks are both religious zealots and criminal masterminds,
Curiously German-centred? :rolleyes: There seems to be alot of that going on in Austria and the Netherlands as well. Allthough in most countries most parties simply ignore the peoples feelings as if they didn't exist.
natural enmity towards christian whites
Which many of the Turks in Germany and other places I've been to actually have.
would benefit from learning about the rise of antisemitism in germany up to 1945.
:rolleyes: Weak. Always trying to squash public opinion with the same old tales.
And anyone who doesn't want to live in an area where much of the population likes different food from them and prefers to speak another language is entitled to move house.
:rolleyes: Or we could just not let it come to that. How about that? And if you don't like that your free to move house.

True. But I meant you could do worse than be Americans ... and you already ARE doing worse than being Americans. :D
Nothing, short of losing it's own cultural identity, could be worse then beeing American. We'd all be better of dead.

For the most part, Islamic scholars agree that Aisha was between 13 and 15 when she married and between 16 and 20 when it was consummated. Some do maintain that she was 9 when betrothed - which is entirely possible and I don't dispute that - but this "6 when married/9 when poked" business is a right out lie.


Then why do the scholars rationalize and justify the "6 when married/9 when poked" business?

@Independent Homesteads : do you live in europe? Please refrain from comparing a religion that has produced the sharia and 9/11 to judaism. There's pretty much grounds for any lack of trust shown towards muslims in general, and moreso arabs. Granted, some people who have never seen a person of color in their lives and hate them are bigots. Here, they represent 10% of the population! But right now, it's the jews that fear being seen in public while wearing a kippah or a star of David. The most recent statistics show that it is not racism or "islamophobia" that is on the rise, but antisemitism. One full segment of france's population is behind it, proud of it, and continuing it, and if naming them makes me a bigot, then anyone who's been mugged or attacked by arabs is one.

Furthermore, the vast majority of the population of turkey is muslim, but it is not a islamic state

People tend to forget that. Hell, there are Muslim womens groups in Turkey protesting and fighting for their right to wear a headscarf in, of all places, University classes.

But, hey, we live in a time where Muslim == Evil Angry Terrorist.

I don't mind so much. I put on a groovy hat like this:

http://www.simplyislam.com/images/dbase/50055t.jpg

and even my blue eyes and pale skin doesn't stop people from giving me a wide berth in a shopping mall. After all ... I might just have a bomb on me.

It's like having complete power over an entire crowd. It's impressive. Try it sometime.

The most recent statistics show that it is not racism or "islamophobia" that is on the rise, but antisemitism. One full segment of france's population is behind it, proud of it, and continuing it, and if naming them makes me a bigot, then anyone who's been mugged or attacked by arabs is one.
And the majority of these anti semitic attacks come from the muslims.

Then why do the scholars rationalize and justify the "6 when married/9 when poked" business?


They don't. There is no reason to justify something that never happened. However, if someone is sitting around openly calling Muhammed a pedophile, explanations will be given. Frankly, I don't even know where the "6 when married/9 when poked" business originated.

"Refusing to speak french when you've lived long enough in France for your grandson to hit maturity is not bigotry, nor is it a complete refusal to adapt to a host country. And black is white."

i was basing my post on the above quote. And you think ten hours a day doesn't exist in Europe? Obviously you've never encountered the black market in illegal immigrant labour or the desperation of even the legal immigrants who will work any length of time for a pittance in order to have a decent standard of living.
That is what i'm talking about. :D

And 10 hours a day doesn't exist in France. This is not the US.

You're right ... in the US, we have 24 hours a day. :D

"Refusing to speak french when you've lived long enough in France for your grandson to hit maturity is not bigotry, nor is it a complete refusal to adapt to a host country. And black is white."

i was basing my post on the above quote. And you think ten hours a day doesn't exist in Europe? Obviously you've never encountered the black market in illegal immigrant labour or the desperation of even the legal immigrants who will work any length of time for a pittance in order to have a decent standard of living.
That is what i'm talking about. :D
Those illegal immigrants come from Asia for the most part. Immigrants from Maghrebs have easy legal access to french nationality, because there are special immigration agreements with the former colonies.
As for legal work, anything above 35 hours/week is illegal in France.

You're right ... in the US, we have 24 hours a day. :D
lol. Strange country.

@Independent Homesteads : do you live in europe? Please refrain from comparing a religion that has produced the sharia and 9/11 to judaism. There's pretty much grounds for any lack of trust shown towards muslims in general, and moreso arabs. Granted, some people who have never seen a person of color in their lives and hate them are bigots. Here, they represent 10% of the population! But right now, it's the jews that fear being seen in public while wearing a kippah or a star of David. The most recent statistics show that it is not racism or "islamophobia" that is on the rise, but antisemitism. One full segment of france's population is behind it, proud of it, and continuing it, and if naming them makes me a bigot, then anyone who's been mugged or attacked by arabs is one.Judaism is pretty much like any other religions. They've produced their fair share of atrocities, starting with zionist terrorism.
BTW there are 6 million jews in France, and they're 10% of the population too and islamophobia is still higher than anti-semitism, despite anti-semitism been on the rise. You being the first example of islamophobia.

They don't. There is no reason to justify something that never happened. However, if someone is sitting around openly calling Muhammed a pedophile, explanations will be given. Frankly, I don't even know where the "6 when married/9 when poked" business originated.
http://www.chick.com/tractimages9587/1054/1054_14.gif?

Who cares if France gets a majority Muslim population?
If France gets a majority muslim population could they then impose sharia law? If so then I think non-muslim French people should care.

I salute the bulk of Frenchmen for not giving a fuck. It's not like North African countries are invading them like the Moors did to Spain.
Yes, let's salute them for embracing hordes of foreigners who reject the advanced, secular, liberal French culture and seek to impose a tribal, fundamentalist, backward North African culture. Cultural suicide is admirable.

It'll never happen though because all muslisms don't want to impose sharia law and those who want will not be the majority in France until the year 51739543

Yes, let's salute them for embracing hordes of foreigners who reject the advanced, secular, liberal French culture and seek to impose a tribal, fundamentalist, backward North African culture. Cultural suicide is admirable.
You don't understand the events it seems. It's the other way around. Last time I checked, France was the colonial country. Go check french influence in North Africa.

It is against Qur'an to force your children - or anyone - into Islam. You may raise them in Muslim tradition, but they are not Muslim until they declare shihadah and they must make that choice for themselves.

It isn't birthrate ... you'll find it's conversion.

With so many people converting to Islam - many of them intelligent, educated, rational people (myself included) - in recent years. Don't you think that maybe, just maybe, Islam isn't so bad?
Actually the North African imigrants are outbreeding the native French by a huge margin. In fact the French aren't even breeding fast enough to replace all of those who die.

Actually the North African imigrants are outbreeding the native French by a huge margin. In fact the French aren't even breeding fast enough to replace all of those who die.
Ah because islam is a genetic desease?

Why is France so special? In 50 years the USA will be a hispanic country, Israel will be an arab country and Germany will probably be Turkish. Demographics are a bitch for white peoples with their low birthrates. Name one country which will have a stable white majority population in 2100 and I will give you a cookie.
Mexicans and Guatemalans don't seek to impose sharia law. I'd rather live in a hispanic country than an arab one any day.

Arab and African, maybe, but you cannot be born a Muslim any more than you can be born a Christian. Islam is a religion, a way of life, not a race.
Face facts. These immigrants aren't integrating. They don't interact socially with non-muslims with the exception of screwing a non-muslim girl now and then. They aren't exposed to other ideas and end up embracing the religion of their community.

Mexicans and Guatemalans don't seek to impose sharia law. I'd rather live in a hispanic country than an arab one any day.
because arab and sharia is the same thing obviously.

Does anyone think a muslim Europe might not suck? Oh it certainly very well could suck very hard, but is there a chance it could be like the old Muslim world, the Mulsim world which kept the candle of science and enlightenment burning throughout the dark ages, the Muslim world which made tremendous advancements in math and science, and which translated great classic works of philosophy and spread rationality?
Or it could just be a horde of barbarians sacking a modern, liberal culture.

Face facts. These immigrants aren't integrating. They don't interact socially with non-muslims with the exception of screwing a non-muslim girl now and then. They aren't exposed to other ideas and end up embracing the religion of their community.
Come in France and check. Most french with arab origins aren't muslim. Only a small minority in Paris' suburbs are still muslim when they're first-generation immigrants. 3rd generation rarely even speack arabic. Actually, in Morocco or Algeria you'll find that you can talk french anywhere with anybody.

Nope ... not necessarily a mistranslation, just taken out of context. Can't really pull a single line out of Qur'an and use it as "Gospel Truth".

Actually, I don't recall ever saying anything about mistranslations when it comes to people posting things in Qur'an. If you could provide a link to a quote of mine about it, I'd appreciate it, but since I don't speak/read/write Arabic, I couldn't tell you if something is mistranslated or not - though your use of the Roman numbering system for the Surah is a little strange and your translation is not that of Yusuf Ali, who wrote the accepted English translation and I will use it as my basis.

But I'll break it down for you, if you like.

Surah 4:89 is speaking of people who demand you reject your faith. You damn well better believe that if you come to my house and demand I reject my faith, you'll get the business end of my boot up your tush.

Surah 4:74-79 (you only mention 74 and 76) speaks of fighting only for the cause of Allah and not for the cause of men (you know ... cause of men ... the reason 99% of all Christian wars were started ... greed, power, lust, etc). This is a bad message .... how?

Surah 5:51 speaks of not taking friends from among Jews and Christians *as protectors* (a tidbit your translation leaves out for some reason). Allah is the only protector.

I'm not sure where you're getting your translation of Surah 8:39-42 ... but I can't find any copy or transaltion of Qur'an that even comes close to matching what you've typed.

The beginning of al Anfal (Surah 8), which you've taken only verse 12, is actually a message of hope for soldiers in the field. Do you not support your nation's troops with messages of hopeful victory? *shrug* Maybe not.

You mention Surah 9:5-6, but don't post the entirety of Surah 9:5-6. You post one tiny part of it.

Look, man, I've taken the time to go through what you've posted. What you have isn't necessarily mistranslation, but it is incomplete. I can do the same thing to a Bible, picking words here and there, and rewrite it to make it look like Jesus had sex with pigs ... but that doesn't make what I've done true. Many copies of Yusuf Ali's translation of Qur'an into English abound on the internet. Grab one of those, read it, and decide for yourself.

However, seeing your post count, it is obvious what you're trying to do and will continue to try to do. I, however, will always be there debunking every attempt by every one of your incarnations to spread hatred through misinformation. I will never tire in that cause.

As for the rest of your drivel, I am a Jew ... my mother is a Jew ... my mother's family are Jews. I don't hate myself or my mother or her family. Frankly, I'm not really sure where you're going with all of this.

Read the quote in my sig. Be well and joy joy feelings all around.
Isn't it true that there are many interpretations of the Koran? Isn't it also true that the more violent interpretations are gaining ground in the Islamic world?

Those illegal immigrants come from Asia for the most part. Immigrants from Maghrebs have easy legal access to french nationality, because there are special immigration agreements with the former colonies.
As for legal work, anything above 35 hours/week is illegal in France.

I'm confused - I wasn't disputing that they come from Asia, I meant black market as in...oh never mind.
What I am actually trying to say is that it is easy to criticise people for not integrating, but in reality they have more than enough reasons not to. It's true that more than 35 hours a week is in fact illegal in France but if you cant speak French how would you know that? And if you need money and the boss needs workers who is going to say anything? People are vulnerable, thats all I'm saying.

Neither did Muhammed. It has been proven time and time and time again that Aisha was 14 when she married Muhammed and 17 when they consummated.

Cling to your ignorance, though. It will serve you well soon enough.
I had read that she was 6 at marriage and 9 at consummation. I think that Greenmanbrys even admitted on this forum that some interpretations show those ages, although he said that they were false.

I'm confused - I wasn't disputing that they come from Asia, I meant black market as in...oh never mind.
What I am actually trying to say is that it is easy to criticise people for not integrating, but in reality they have more than enough reasons not to. It's true that more than 35 hours a week is in fact illegal in France but if you cant speak French how would you know that? And if you need money and the boss needs workers who is going to say anything? People are vulnerable, thats all I'm saying.
Then I agree with you.
But I think that people here talk about something they know nothing about. They're mostly US people who are angry because they've got 2 towers down.
If they could check some facts about France, especially about history, they would know that France owes a debt to north Africa and that North Africa is more french than France is north african. They would also know that islamists extremists (like the wahhabists) are on to drive non-islamic people out of THEIR land (especially the Mecca) but they don't plan on taking over Europe, they feel better in their land with their sharia law. But I'm not talking about you.

if you moved to new country and had to go straight out to work in a factory for ten hours a day, support your entire family plus possibly your extended family back in your original country would you really have time for evening classes to learn french? :headbang:
Nobody in France works ten hours per day. Also France gives a significant ammount of benefits in housing and welfare to the immigrants. They aren't facing hardships. Even the large numbers of unemployed make a decent living off of the French dole.

You don't understand the events it seems. It's the other way around. Last time I checked, France was the colonial country. Go check french influence in North Africa.
The trend's reversed now. The North Africans are swarming into France and refusing to assimilate. They are trying to bring their way of life into France, and I have no doubt that they will try to impose it on the native French whenever they have enough votes.

Ah because islam is a genetic desease?
Because the immigrants don't assimilate. They don't allow their children to absorb secular values. Instead they try to impose muslim values.

because arab and sharia is the same thing obviously.
Please name me one Arab country that doesn't at least pay lip service to sharia as the basis of it's laws.

Cultural suicide is admirable.
We are told it is. Although most people seem to think otherwise. As long as it's PC the politicians will try and paint it as something we should embrace.

Come in France and check. Most french with arab origins aren't muslim. Only a small minority in Paris' suburbs are still muslim when they're first-generation immigrants. 3rd generation rarely even speack arabic. Actually, in Morocco or Algeria you'll find that you can talk french anywhere with anybody.
Mainly because the first Arab and N. African immigrants into France were Christians fleeing from muslim persecution. Ask yourself where all the christian communities in the Arab world are disappearing to. They want out because they face religious and cultural persecution.

Mainly because the first Arab and N. African immigrants into France were Christians fleeing from muslim persecution. Ask yourself where all the christian communities in the Arab world are disappearing to. They want out because they face religious and cultural persecution.
I think the first real wave of north African immigrants were in fact the pied noir. Who returned to France from Algeria.

Please name me one Arab country that doesn't at least pay lip service to sharia as the basis of it's laws.Does that mean every arab immigrant want to impose sharia in France and that his children will want to impose sharia forever?

Mainly because the first Arab and N. African immigrants into France were Christians fleeing from muslim persecution. Ask yourself where all the christian communities in the Arab world are disappearing to. They want out because they face religious and cultural persecution.
They were fighting for their freedom and the french are not necessarily christian BTW. Remember France is not the US.

Does that mean every arab immigrant want to impose sharia in France and that his children will want to impose sharia forever?
Not every arab, but quite a few. Not forever, I expect that someday all people will abandon religion.

They were fighting for their freedom and the french are not necessarily christian BTW. Remember France is not the US.
I never claimed the French were christian. Several times in this thread I clearly stated they had a secular society.

Not every arab, but quite a few. Not forever, I expect that someday all people will abandon religion.
The point is that in France school is mandatory and that in school religious propaganda is forbidden. The bottom line is that muslim immigrants quickly loose their religion when they come to France, if not before.

The point is that in France school is mandatory and that in school religious propaganda is forbidden. The bottom line is that muslim immigrants quickly loose their religion when they come to France, if not before.
I'm not so sure they do. And they certainly don't embrace French culture.

The point is that in France school is mandatory and that in school religious propaganda is forbidden. The bottom line is that muslim immigrants quickly loose their religion when they come to France, if not before.
Oh please. Do you actually believe that?

I'm not so sure they do. And they certainly don't embrace French culture.
At my school they did.

Oh please. Do you actually believe that?
Come in France and talk to the young arabs about islam. Few can even spell Qu'ran (sorry I can't myself) and they only know how to say "hello" and "thanks" in arabic. They usually teach what they learnt in school to their parent. They identify themselves to zinedine zidane or to djamel more than to muhammed.

The point is that in France school is mandatory and that in school religious propaganda is forbidden. The bottom line is that muslim immigrants quickly loose their religion when they come to France, if not before.

And by "religious propoganda" they mean, "any article of clothing remotely related to your religion that implies you actually are an individual with your own beliefs."

And by "religious propoganda" they mean, "any article of clothing remotely related to your religion that implies you actually are an individual with your own beliefs."
No. They mean religious propaganda. The law you are refering about is about ostentatoire symbols. Ostentatoire means just that : propaganda.

No. They mean religious propaganda.

If they really meant that, they wouldn't be banning articles of clothing on *individuals* which happen to be related to a religion and are in no way an attempt to convert/indoctrinate others.

If they really meant that, they wouldn't be banning articles of clothing on *individuals* which happen to be related to a religion and are in no way an attempt to convert/indoctrinate others.
Ostentatoire.

The law you are refering about is about ostentatoire symbols. Ostentatoire means just that : propaganda.

By "ostentatoire", I'll assume you mean "ostentatious." However, even ostentatious symbols in no way equate to propaganda.

By "ostentatoire", I'll assume you mean "ostentatious." However, even ostentatious symbols in no way equate to propaganda.
It doesn't mean "any article of clothing remotely related to your religion that implies you actually are an individual with your own beliefs." either.

It doesn't mean "which happen to be related to a religion and are in no way an attempt to convert/indoctrinate others" either.

Actually, it does mean exactly that. The fact that I am wearing purple today (and this fact is obvious) does not in any way pressure anyone who sees me to wear purple. Those who wear articles of clothing that happen to be related to their religion are not trying to convert/indoctrinate anyone else, they are simply minding their own business.

Actually, it does mean exactly that. The fact that I am wearing purple today (and this fact is obvious) does not in any way pressure anyone who sees me to wear purple. Those who wear articles of clothing that happen to be related to their religion are not trying to convert/indoctrinate anyone else, they are simply minding their own business.You said "any article of clothing remotely related to your religion that implies you actually are an individual with your own beliefs."
It hardly means ostentatious.

(from dictionary.com)
ostentatious

adj 1: intended to attract notice and impress others; "an ostentatious sable coat"

You said "any article of clothing remotely related to your religion that implies you actually are an individual with your own beliefs."
It hardly means ostentatious.

(from dictionary.com)
ostentatious

adj 1: intended to attract notice and impress others; "an ostentatious sable coat"

And neither crosses, unless they are large to the point of being unwieldy, nor headscarves, nor yamakuhs (I know this is spelled wrong) even come close to meeting this definition.

Edit: In other words, the French do ban any article of clothing even remotely related to your religion which might imply that you actually have one. It has nothing to do with being ostentatious.

And neither crosses, unless they are large to the point of being unwieldy, nor headscarves, nor yamakuhs (I know this is spelled wrong) even come close to meeting this definition.

Edit: In other words, the French do ban any article of clothing even remotely related to your religion which might imply that you actually have one. It has nothing to do with being ostentatious.
You can wear small crosses or headscarves provided they're discrete.
Sorry for bursting your religious right hero warrior bubble but you'd better concentrate on where you are needed. OMG some countries have the uniform. WTF in some countries pupils are obligated to go to the swimming pool even if they are muslim. In some countries, you are not even allowed to pray during class. But of course after watching Fox news you are after France on your religious freedom war.

And neither crosses, unless they are large to the point of being unwieldy, nor headscarves, nor yarmulkes (you're welcome) even come close to meeting this definition.

Edit: In other words, the French do ban any article of clothing even remotely related to your religion which might imply that you actually have one. It has nothing to do with being ostentatious.

This was needed because the middle-east conflict now takes place in france, like it or not. I'd never dream of sending my kid to his school wearing a star of david or a cross medallion nowadays, for fear of not seeing him live through the day.

On the other side, it is forbidden to wear hats in the classroom, or any kind of headgear for that matter. And that has nothing to do with religion.

So the refusal for muslim youths to remove their headscarves during class is their best message to France : "we will never integrate ourselves, and you will change your laws to accomodate us conquerors".

@psylos : we don't live in the same france.

This was needed because the middle-east conflict now takes place in france, like it or not. I'd never dream of sending my kid to his school wearing a star of david or a cross medallion nowadays, for fear of not seeing him live through the day.You should go to Gaza and check if the conflict is the same there. Do you have tanks rolling over your house or did someone explode in your local supermarket? A few people shouting "fucking jew" or "sale arabe" is not the same as the middle-east conflict. The worst event which happened on the last few months in France was a psychopat jewish girls who said she was beaten by arabs when in fact she beat herself and draw swatsikas on herself in order to get attention.
So the refusal for muslim youths to remove their headscarves during class is their best message to France : "we will never integrate ourselves, and you will change your laws to accomodate us conquerors".They were like 70 pupils out of all of France (60 million people). They refused to remove their headscarves. As a comparison, Israel has 6 million people and there extremists blow themselves up twice a month whereas tanks destroy about 100 houses every month.
How many arab did you cross and with how many of them did you have any problem. Of course it doesn't count if the problems you have had with arabs occured after you insulted them.

@psylos : we don't live in the same france.Of course we don't. Where do you live again? Nice?

The worst event which happened on the last few months in France was a psychopat jewish girls who said she was beaten by arabs when in fact she beat herself and draw swatsikas on herself in order to get attention.

Of course we don't. Where do you live again? Nice?

No commentary on the rest because it's only a matter of time, but the girl pretended to be jewish. She wasn't, really.

And yes, I live in Nice, travel often to Marseilles, and realized something you won't until it's too late.

No commentary on the rest because it's only a matter of time, but the girl pretended to be jewish. She wasn't, really.You see? she was not even jewish. I'm sure psychopats like that are not specific to France. We are still about 100 000 years away from a conflict like the one in the middle east.

And yes, I live in Nice, travel often to Marseilles, and realized something you won't until it's too late.I see, FN's stronghold. FN can go to hell. I think italian mafia is the first problem to deal with in Marseille. Despite being christians they still cause much more trouble than muslisms there.

BTW I was in holidays in Morocco last summer and my girlfriend is from Algeria (she barely know what the Qu'ran is). she was there this christmas. And OMG, those people are so friendly and they have so much hospitality I was ashamed of my country.

You can wear small crosses or headscarves provided they're discrete.
There is no such thing as a "discreet" headscarf. If it couldn't be seen, it wouldn't be covering the hair, now would it?

Sorry for bursting your religious right hero warrior bubble but you'd better concentrate on where you are needed. OMG some countries have the uniform. WTF in some countries pupils are obligated to go to the swimming pool even if they are muslim. In some countries, you are not even allowed to pray during class. But of course after watching Fox news you are after France on your religious freedom war.

(a) The discussion at hand was about France, thus I made a comment about France. Get off your martyr complex.

(b) I wouldn't touch Fox News with a 30 ft pole unless it was all I had access to (which it is not).

(c) What on earth makes you think I speak out about other injustices any less strongly than this one?

So the refusal for muslim youths to remove their headscarves during class is their best message to France : "we will never integrate ourselves, and you will change your laws to accomodate us conquerors".

Would you force a young girl to go out without a shirt on if she didn't want to? The very fact that you think a girl has to do something which she believes to be immodest and dress the way you want her to in order to be part of society demonstrates pure bigotry.

This is an interesting quote about the growth of France's Islamic population. Apparently, Muslims may yet "conquer" France by birthrate, having been unable to do so by force of arms.

Could the same not be said about the United States fastest growing minority? People of Lantino origin.

There is no such thing as a "discreet" headscarf. If it couldn't be seen, it wouldn't be covering the hair, now would it?

Despite this fact they are allowed to cover their hair. They can wear a bandana for instance. What is forbidden is their big traditional veil because it is thought to be ostentatious.

(a) The discussion at hand was about France, thus I made a comment about France. Get off your martyr complex.

(b) I wouldn't touch Fox News with a 30 ft pole unless it was all I had access to (which it is not).

(c) What on earth makes you think I speak out about other injustices any less strongly than this one?
The problem is that you seem to focus on this simply because there is the word "religious" in the law. OMG they attack RELIGION.
Actually there are many laws worse than this one. Pupils work on friday for instance. Some religions forbid to work on friday.

This is an interesting quote about the growth of France's Islamic population. Apparently, Muslims may yet "conquer" France by birthrate, having been unable to do so by force of arms.

"If current birthrates and immigration patterns continue, France will be a Muslim country sometime in this century. When Notre Dame is a mosque, and Paris has a Grand Mufti, let's see how smug the French are about their superior culture." --Don Feder
Actually it is funny because I noticed there are less and less muslims. They usually forget about their religion when they have to work. They start eating pork and they drink alcohol. Don Feder assumes that arab immigration is necessarily increasing the muslim population but it is not the case.

Could the same not be said about the United States fastest growing minority? People of Lantino origin.
Perhaps so. What do you think, Steph? :)

Nothing, short of losing it's own cultural identity, could be worse then beeing American. We'd all be better of dead.

Your wish is GRANTED! :mp5:

So the refusal for muslim youths to remove their headscarves during class is their best message to France : "we will never integrate ourselves, and you will change your laws to accomodate us conquerors".

So what you're saying here is that everyone needs to be the same regardless of cultural identity, spirituality, and family history and that this conformity should be based solely upon arbitrary national borders?

Joseph McCarthy would be proud of you, son. Very proud. So would Hitler.

I don't think that's what he is saying.
He is saying that they want to impose theis cultural identity on others.
Not that I agree with him since it is obviously the other way around. One just has to go to Morocco or Algeria to understand that it is the other way around.
Those people fought the nazis in WW2 along with french forces and now we're saying that they should stay home but France is their home as much as ours.