NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.detnews.com/2005/metro/0501/05/A01-50709.htm

A couple of teenagers decided to abort their baby by the boyfriend hitting his girlfriend in the stomach with a baseball bat. He hit his girlfriend repeatedly over a two week period until she miscarried, then they buried the baby in the backyard. The boy, 16, is charged with intentional conduct against a pregnancy or stillbirth, which is a felony. The girl is not being charged as there is no law on the books related to her involvement.

What do you think of this situation?

http://www.detnews.com/2005/metro/0501/05/A01-50709.htm

A couple of teenagers decided to abort their baby by the boyfriend hitting his girlfriend in the stomach with a baseball bat. He hit his girlfriend repeatedly over a two week period until she miscarried, then they buried the baby in the backyard. The boy, 16, is charged with intentional conduct against a pregnancy or stillbirth, which is a felony. The girl is not being charged as there is no law on the books related to her involvement.

What do you think of this situation?
Wow.
That's pretty fucked up.
:(
It makes me sad is what I think.

I actually feel fairly sick...

Wow . . .

I remember debating this ages ago.
I'm not surprised at all. We've got a society that's 100% conductive to this sort of thing - children being bombarded with sexual notions through the media, while getting no practical knowledge from school. Abortions are considered 'wrong', but single/young mothers are treated like shit. Guys are encouraged to have as much sex as soon as possible (not that they'd even need encouragement :p).

Personally I expect to see an increase in similar cases unless there are some drastic changes to the media/education/social stigmas.

Forgive them, Lord, for they know not what they do.

...


I remember debating this ages ago.
I'm not surprised at all. We've got a society that's 100% conductive to this sort of thing - children being bombarded with sexual notions through the media, while getting no practical knowledge from school. Abortions are considered 'wrong', but single/young mothers are treated like shit. Guys are encouraged to have as much sex as soon as possible (not that they'd even need encouragement :p).

Personally I expect to see an increase in similar cases unless there are some drastic changes to the media/education/social stigmas.
Personally, I am against abortion on the grounds that the fetus might be a person. However, I also believe that we need more comprehensive sex education. Adolescent children need to understand the moral, social, and financial consequences of getting pregnant. Just telling the kids "sex is bad for teens; don't do it" and leaving it at that is not going to cut it.


--The Democratic States of Cogitation

http://www.detnews.com/2005/metro/0501/05/A01-50709.htm

A couple of teenagers decided to abort their baby by the boyfriend hitting his girlfriend in the stomach with a baseball bat. He hit his girlfriend repeatedly over a two week period until she miscarried, then they buried the baby in the backyard. The boy, 16, is charged with intentional conduct against a pregnancy or stillbirth, which is a felony. The girl is not being charged as there is no law on the books related to her involvement.

What do you think of this situation?

WTF she's not being charged? That is Bullsh*t. Yea, i bet she had nothing to do with a baseball bat abortion. She's not responsible at all...

And what about this being a felony, huh? It strikes me funny that if you go to a doctor and pay to kill the baby in your uterus that's perfectly legal, but if you do it yourself you're a murderer? Seems the only difference is that a doctor is getting some $$ out of it. Maybe its a corporate/HMO conspiracy? Maybe the "intentional conduct against a pregnancy or stillbirth" law is one step on the road to overturning Roe v. Wade? Either case, one of these laws is wrong, I'm not gonna call it so as to not stir up that beehive again.

I don't actually know that it could be considered assault, since he really wasn't attacking her per se. Wouldn't she have to press charges? Or is it because she's a minor the state has to press charges?

He's being charged with this: "Smith charged the boy under a state law passed in 1999 - called the "Prenatal Protection Act" - that states only the person assaulting a pregnant woman resulting in a miscarriage is criminally liable."

What they were doing doesn't really fit that definition all too well.

why didnt the bimbo just get a normal abortion?

This is awful. Another baby murdered by abortion. Now about 30.2 million children have been killed by this genocide known as abortion. Those 2 people involved in this should be locked up for life since they murdered a helpless child. My prayers for the poor soul :( .

Forgive them, Lord, for they know not what they do.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

Amen. And they're only babies, themselves.

This is awful. Another baby murdered by abortion. Now about 30.2 million children have been killed by this genocide known as abortion. Those 2 people involved in this should be locked up for life since they murdered a helpless child. My prayers for the poor soul :( .

O.o

There's so much wrong with that I don't even no where to start.

At least in this case the use of 'child' was correct, since the girl getting the abortion was indeed only a child.

I don't actually know that it could be considered assault, since he really wasn't attacking her per se. Wouldn't she have to press charges? Or is it because she's a minor the state has to press charges?

Read the article. The charge is intentional conduct against a pregnancy or stillbirth.

why didnt the bimbo just get a normal abortion?

They were too scared to approach their parents, I think, and she was too scared to go through a medical abortion alone.

I've never heard anything quite like it before.

They were too scared to approach their parents, I think, and she was too scared to go through a medical abortion alone.


And how was beating that fetus to death and better then a medical abortion???

This stupid slut and her dumb**** boyfriend acted immoraly now they have to pay the price. But instead they just decide to have their baby butchered by beating it to death with a bat. Those stupid crapheads. They should be put on death row for what they did to that poor baby.

And what about this being a felony, huh? It strikes me funny that if you go to a doctor and pay to kill the baby in your uterus that's perfectly legal, but if you do it yourself you're a murderer? Seems the only difference is that a doctor is getting some $$ out of it. Maybe its a corporate/HMO conspiracy? Maybe the "intentional conduct against a pregnancy or stillbirth" law is one step on the road to overturning Roe v. Wade? Either case, one of these laws is wrong, I'm not gonna call it so as to not stir up that beehive again.
The law may be in place... I speculate because it's to provide for harsher punishments for assaults agaisnt pregnant mothers who want their children.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

...

This stupid slut and her dumb**** boyfriend acted immoraly now they have to pay the price. But instead they just decide to have their baby butchered by beating it to death with a bat. Those stupid crapheads. They should be put on death row for what they did to that poor baby.
I know that this is an emotionally-charged subject, but please do try to keep a level head. Losing it isn't going to help matters and, if overdone, will lead to an official warning for trolling.

Just a piece of advice from your friendly neighborhood Moderator.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

This stupid slut and her dumb**** boyfriend acted immoraly now they have to pay the price. But instead they just decide to have their baby butchered by beating it to death with a bat. Those stupid crapheads. They should be put on death row for what they did to that poor baby.

thats a bit extreme dont you think?

This stupid slut and her dumb**** boyfriend acted immoraly now they have to pay the price. But instead they just decide to have their baby butchered by beating it to death with a bat. Those stupid crapheads. They should be put on death row for what they did to that poor baby.

Um... Calling her a "stupid slut" doesn't make you look very moral yourself. Not to start a flame war, but they should have to go to prision their whole life for something they did when they were teenagers? I would hate it If I f'd up something real bad, and as an 80 year old was still being sodomized for it.

thats a bit extreme dont you think?

You think I'm being extreme? I'm not the one who beat a baby to death with a bat. Putting those two kids in a gassing chamber is being kind to them, believe me.

For those who think that any and all abortions should be legal...the baby was a 6 month fetus with a functioning nervous system and brain. The boy beat the girl and the baby repeatedly for 2 weeks. It is only logical to assume the baby suffered bruises, broken bones, and extensive pain for 2 weeks. Is this really an acceptable form of abortion that should not be punished?

And what about this being a felony, huh? It strikes me funny that if you go to a doctor and pay to kill the baby in your uterus that's perfectly legal, but if you do it yourself you're a murderer? Seems the only difference is that a doctor is getting some $$ out of it. Maybe its a corporate/HMO conspiracy? Maybe the "intentional conduct against a pregnancy or stillbirth" law is one step on the road to overturning Roe v. Wade? Either case, one of these laws is wrong, I'm not gonna call it so as to not stir up that beehive again.
a law created to punish people with criminal intent to cause miscarriages does in no way overturn or even go against a law that would allow abortions

This stupid slut and her dumb**** boyfriend acted immoraly now they have to pay the price. But instead they just decide to have their baby butchered by beating it to death with a bat. Those stupid crapheads. They should be put on death row for what they did to that poor baby.
*Kicks in balls and walks away, whistling tunelessy.*

They should both be punished to the extent of the law. If they didn't want a baby they shouldn't have been fooling around. With each generation society tries more and more to do away with the custom of taking responsibility for your actions.

thats sad that it had to come to that.

always use protection boys and girls.

You think I'm being extreme? I'm not the one who beat a baby to death with a bat. Putting those two kids in a gassing chamber is being kind to them, believe me.

The couple are only 16 and kids just don't think logically sometimes. I think I would look to a society that says it is acceptable to abort a baby.

And how was beating that fetus to death and better then a medical abortion???

Give me a break - they're practically babies themselves. For the GIRL, being hit in the stomach a few times would have seemed *far* less scary than having to go through the proper channels for a medical abortion.

Of *course* I agree that for the foetus it was appalling, especially since it was so late term. This is why I think early-term elective abortions need to have the stigma removed. If she was going to have an abortion, much better it happen before the foetus form a brain and be able to feel pain like it would have been in this case.

And how was beating that fetus to death and better then a medical abortion???
Shaed never said anything of the sort.

They should both be punished to the extent of the law. If they didn't want a baby they shouldn't have been fooling around. With each generation society tries more and more to do away with the custom of taking responsibility for your actions.
as correct as that mgiht be, the "they shouldnt have been fooling around" is getitng to be a bullshit response by the heads of society to try and take blame off themselves for not actually teaching kids what the fuck they should be or not be doing and trying to lay the blame on them

They should both be punished to the extent of the law. If they didn't want a baby they shouldn't have been fooling around. With each generation society tries more and more to do away with the custom of taking responsibility for your actions.
Well then why don't we take some responsibility and actually educate children in their sex-ed classes, instead of just saying 'Sex is bad, kiddies!" I'd say that would be a big step towards things getting better.

as correct as that mgiht be, the "they shouldnt have been fooling around" is getitng to be a bullshit response by the heads of society to try and take blame off themselves for not actually teaching kids what the fuck they should be or not be doing and trying to lay the blame on them

OK, for all of you who didn't know, unprotected sex can lead to unwanted pregnancies. Even worse, it can lead to diseases that antibiotics (or anything else) will not cure.

How many on here 16 or younger did not know this?

a law created to punish people with criminal intent to cause miscarriages does in no way overturn or even go against a law that would allow abortions

Normally true, but when used as it often is against people preforming their own moonshine abortions, a serious conflict arises.

OK, for all of you who didn't know, unprotected sex can lead to unwanted pregnancies. Even worse, it can lead to diseases that antibiotics (or anything else) will not cure.

So, the answer is? Use protection! And so <insert information about the various types of protection>

Rather than 'unprotected sex is bad, but then, so is sex in general. Don't have sex. Here, put this condom on a banana'.

I think getting hit in the parts with a baseball bat would hurt. Really bad. Yeah. You would think they could have found a better way. Ouch. :(

Well then why don't we take some responsibility and actually educate children in their sex-ed classes, instead of just saying 'Sex is bad, kiddies!" I'd say that would be a big step towards things getting better.

Sex education sucks. Not only does it promote immorality, but it leads to more pregnacies and STDs. Abstinance-only education teaches people to live moral lives and works better, even though these die hard liberals claim it doesn't. Yet these stupid and worthless sub-human potheads get pregnant anyway no matter what you tell them and should be forced to live with it. By allowing them to murder their baby you are not only helping in an evil genocide program worse than the holocaust you are telling them "Its ok do it again." We have to make a firm stand against abortion by outlawing it unless the mother will die. And if any stupid pricks like these kids decide to kill their children anyway we should put them in prison for life.

I think getting hit in the parts with a baseball bat would hurt. Really bad. Yeah. You would think they could have found a better way. Ouch. :(
She got hit in the stomach.

Sex education sucks. Not only does it promote immorality, but it leads to more pregnacies and STDs.
Yes, that is what abstinence-only education does. Right on the money.
Abstinance-only education teaches people to live moral lives and works better, even though these die hard liberals claim it doesn't.
You see, the problem is, we have facts on our side. You, on the other hand, have none.
Yet these stupid and worthless sub-human potheads get pregnant anyway no matter what you tell them and should be forced to live with it.
Doesn't your religion say to love everyone?

Sex education sucks. Not only does it promote immorality, but it leads to more pregnacies and STDs. Abstinance-only education teaches people to live moral lives and works better, even though these die hard liberals claim it doesn't. Yet these stupid and worthless sub-human potheads get pregnant anyway no matter what you tell them and should be forced to live with it. By allowing them to murder their baby you are not only helping in an evil genocide program worse than the holocaust you are telling them "Its ok do it again." We have to make a firm stand against abortion by outlawing it unless the mother will die. And if any stupid pricks like these kids decide to kill their children anyway we should put them in prison for life.

Hahahaha!

Ohhh, this is just so riduculous it's funny.

You know, you lose the moral high ground by being a reactionary pillock. Throwing around phrases like 'sub-human' just makes *you* appear morally wrong. *Also*, by insulting the girls who get pregnant (by calling them stupid sluts, and the like) you encourage them to try and hide pregnancies by, get this, having abortions! Go you!

as correct as that mgiht be, the "they shouldnt have been fooling around" is getitng to be a bullshit response by the heads of society to try and take blame off themselves for not actually teaching kids what the fuck they should be or not be doing and trying to lay the blame on them

Well then why don't we take some responsibility and actually educate children in their sex-ed classes, instead of just saying 'Sex is bad, kiddies!" I'd say that would be a big step towards things getting better.

Oh please. I'm fairly certain these kids knew enough about sex to know the consequences. A big step towards things getting better would be to teach people to hold sex for marriage, where it can actually be something meaningful instead of just a pass-time or a sport. Don't try to pull that "Well they didn't know!" nonsense.

Doesn't your religion say to love everyone?

Yes, it does. However I lose my temper on issues such as abortion as you have probably noticed. I honestly feel like I want to grab a tourch and burn down every abortion clinic in the country. Of course I would never do that because it is breaking Gods law and the countries law and I would be just as bad as the "pro-choice" nazis but I hate abortion beyond belief.

Sex education sucks. Not only does it promote immorality, but it leads to more pregnacies and STDs. Abstinance-only education teaches people to live moral lives and works better, even though these die hard liberals claim it doesn't. Yet these stupid and worthless sub-human potheads get pregnant anyway no matter what you tell them and should be forced to live with it. By allowing them to murder their baby you are not only helping in an evil genocide program worse than the holocaust you are telling them "Its ok do it again." We have to make a firm stand against abortion by outlawing it unless the mother will die. And if any stupid pricks like these kids decide to kill their children anyway we should put them in prison for life.
you've never had abstinence ed have you? and shit thats worse than sex ed, sex ed doesnt teach you shit and abstinence ed jsut says you should do it, naughty, then tells you lies and half truths and utter bullshit. hell, 1/3 of all abstienence ed programs are full of proven lies (tears can transmit aids anyone?)

i support life long abortion for the incurably stupid (like those people that think abstinence ed works and abortion is the new holocaust and trees and animals are our friends and we have no rights to eat/cut them up/keep them in cages, etc)

Yes, it does. However I lose my temper on issues such as abortion as you have probably noticed. I honestly feel like I want to grab a tourch and burn down every abortion clinic in the country. Of course I would never do that because it is breaking Gods law and the countries law and I would be just as bad as the "pro-choice" nazis but I hate abortion beyond belief.
oh please do, then we can put another lunatic in jail for killing innocent people or threatening their lives because unborn fetuses > real people

I ddon't no how anyone could live with themselves after doing some thing like that. You'd think just the knowledge of what they'd done would be punishment enough, not to say they shouldn't be punished in a number of painful ways.

I ddon't no how anyone could live with themselves after doing some thing like that. You'd think just the knowledge of what they'd done would be punishment enough, not to say they shouldn't be punished in a number of painful ways.

Because nothing says 'moral high ground' like wishing pain on other human beings, right? Right?

:rolleyes:

Oh please. I'm fairly certain these kids knew enough about sex to know the consequences. A big step towards things getting better would be to teach people to hold sex for marriage, where it can actually be something meaningful instead of just a pass-time or a sport. Don't try to pull that "Well they didn't know!" nonsense.
do you people have meetings where you sit around convincing yourselves shit like this will work?

Oh please. I'm fairly certain these kids knew enough about sex to know the consequences. A big step towards things getting better would be to teach people to hold sex for marriage, where it can actually be something meaningful instead of just a pass-time or a sport. Don't try to pull that "Well they didn't know!" nonsense.
The thing is, many of them *don't* know.
I didn't know anything about sex until my father took it upon himself to tell me at 15. Sex-ed at 2 different schools said nothing but "Sex is bad!". Nothing about contraception, nothing about STDs, nothing about anything. And teaching people to hold it for someone they love is a good idea, but *not* a good idea if you do it to the exclusion of everything else. There are some, hell, most teens won't listen to it, so it would be best to at least make sure they know what they are about to do and how to minimize risks.

do you people have meetings where you sit around convincing yourselves shit like this will work?

I'm not sure what you mean by "you people." I was under the impression that I'm nearly alone on this miserable planet as far as my moral standards.

The thing is, many of them *don't* know.
I didn't know anything about sex until my father took it upon himself to tell me at 15. Sex-ed at 2 different schools said nothing but "Sex is bad!". Nothing about contraception, nothing about STDs, nothing about anything. And teaching people to hold it for someone they love is a good idea, but *not* a good idea if you do it to the exclusion of everything else. There are some, hell, most teens won't listen to it, so it would be best to at least make sure they know what they are about to do and how to minimize risks.

Don't get me wrong. I agree that the previous generation is also at fault, but I think at this point it's evident that they're quite content with what they've done, or the lack there-of. One generation must stand up to correct this, and if it's going to be ours, "ignorance" can be no excuse.

People, this is worth discussing, but tone down the insults.

do you people have meetings where you sit around convincing yourselves shit like this will work?

Do you people have meetings discussing cruel new ways to kill the next generation?

Do you people have meetings discussing cruel new ways to kill the next generation?
yes, yes we do.

Do you people have meetings discussing cruel new ways to kill the next generation?

If they die before they're classified as 'organisms', I don't think they count as the 'next generation'.

But I concur with Chess Squares - we do indeed. I provide the cookies for said meetings, in fact.

Sex education sucks. Not only does it promote immorality, but it leads to more pregnacies and STDs. Abstinance-only education teaches people to live moral lives and works better, even though these die hard liberals claim it doesn't. Yet these stupid and worthless sub-human potheads get pregnant anyway no matter what you tell them and should be forced to live with it. By allowing them to murder their baby you are not only helping in an evil genocide program worse than the holocaust you are telling them "Its ok do it again." We have to make a firm stand against abortion by outlawing it unless the mother will die. And if any stupid pricks like these kids decide to kill their children anyway we should put them in prison for life.

I can't believe you even have abstainance only sex ed, it's like some bad joke.

yes, yes we do.

My meetings have punch. Do your meetings have punch?

My meetings have punch. Do your meetings have punch?
hell, we have PIZZA from papa *bleep*ing john's

My meetings have punch. Do your meetings have punch?
They have cookies!
Shaed said so.

My meetings have punch. Do your meetings have punch?

I'll have to put that on the agenda at our next meeting.

iLock pending Moderator review.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

*Kicks in balls and walks away, whistling tunelessy.*
Armed Bookworms: Official Warning - Flamebait
Sex education sucks. Not only does it promote immorality, but it leads to more pregnacies and STDs. Abstinance-only education teaches people to live moral lives and works better, even though these die hard liberals claim it doesn't. Yet these stupid and worthless sub-human potheads get pregnant anyway no matter what you tell them and should be forced to live with it. By allowing them to murder their baby you are not only helping in an evil genocide program worse than the holocaust you are telling them "Its ok do it again." We have to make a firm stand against abortion by outlawing it unless the mother will die. And if any stupid pricks like these kids decide to kill their children anyway we should put them in prison for life.
Commando2: Official Warning - Trolling

This particular post, above, is actually borderline trolling. I've merely taken into account Posts #17 and #21 and based the warning on all three.
Hahahaha!

Ohhh, this is just so riduculous it's funny.

You know, you lose the moral high ground by being a reactionary pillock. Throwing around phrases like 'sub-human' just makes *you* appear morally wrong. *Also*, by insulting the girls who get pregnant (by calling them stupid sluts, and the like) you encourage them to try and hide pregnancies by, get this, having abortions! Go you!
Borderline flaming. Under the circumstances, your tone-of-voice is not wise.
i support life long abortion for the incurably stupid (like those people that think abstinence ed works and abortion is the new holocaust and trees and animals are our friends and we have no rights to eat/cut them up/keep them in cages, etc)
Chess Squares: Official Warning - Trolling. Considering that another NationStates player was advocating abstinence-only sex education earlier in this thread, this could be construed as implicitly threatening another NationStates player.
oh please do, then we can put another lunatic in jail for killing innocent people or threatening their lives because unborn fetuses > real people
Chess Squares: Official Warning - Flaming.
Do you people have meetings discussing cruel new ways to kill the next generation?
Commando2: Official Warning - Flamebait.
But I concur with Chess Squares - we do indeed. I provide the cookies for said meetings, in fact.
Borderline flamebait. Do not taunt other NationStates players.

...

Abortion and related issues are extremely controversial subjects. I understand that opinions on this are strong, but that does not excuse bad behavior on the forums.

Chess Squares and Commando2: If we have to deal with either of you again, you will be forumbanned.

...

iUnlock. I expect the remainder of this discussion to remain civil.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
NationStates Game Moderator

iUnlock. I expect the remainder of this discussion to remain civil.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
NationStates Game Moderator
:eek:
Well, you guys sure do mean business!
Whew, this should make it a bit easier to discuss the issue, hopefully.

:eek:
Well, you guys sure do mean business!
Whew, this should make it a bit easier to discuss the issue, hopefully.

Also reminded me why I need to stay away from abortion debates. -sigh-

but we were talknig about teh cookies!

iLock/iUnlock-----> where do I get one of those? Does Wal-Mart sell them (they sell everything else). I assume it would be by the padlocks, et al.

Did anyone here actually read either the article or the first post? What kind of guy would think of hitting his girlfriend (who he supposedly cared for) with a baseball bat for two weeks? How would any of you like to get hit with a baseball bat for two weeks? You think a stomach has no pain nerves? And what kind of girl would agree to this kind of mistreatment? You-all are debating the wrongs and rights of abortion. I'm thinking this sounds like assault and battery of the girl. She doesn't need to be charged. She needs a shrink if she agreed to go along with this. And so does he.

This is awful. Another baby murdered by abortion. Now about 30.2 million children have been killed by this genocide known as abortion. Those 2 people involved in this should be locked up for life since they murdered a helpless child. My prayers for the poor soul :( .


I don't know whats worse! American law and education (or lack of) that ultimately was responsible for the two teenagers taking the action they did or Commando2 immediately taking the moral high ground without even thinking what it must have been like for the couple involved.

I am not pro abortion for abortions sake BTW, I hate the idea of abortion in most circumstances but I am a man so really I don't have that much of a right to force my view on the women who have them[abortions]

I can understand a rape victim wanting an abortion and would fully support whatever action she decided to take, likewise in the case of incestual rape.
Where sex education is non existant I would think that teenage girls would get sympathetic advice and a termination if she was unwilling or unable to care for a child, but only if it were within the first 12 weeks of pregnancy.

These two teenagers need help and councelling, not jail and persecution.

Did anyone here actually read either the article or the first post? What kind of guy would think of hitting his girlfriend (who he supposedly cared for) with a baseball bat for two weeks? How would any of you like to get hit with a baseball bat for two weeks? You think a stomach has no pain nerves? And what kind of girl would agree to this kind of mistreatment? You-all are debating the wrongs and rights of abortion. I'm thinking this sounds like assault and battery of the girl. She doesn't need to be charged. She needs a shrink if she agreed to go along with this. And so does he.

Yeah it's really quite scary. I'm guessing she was so terrified that anything seemed like a good alternative to telling her parents. I suppose I can relate in a way because my parents are extremely strict and if I had ever gotten pregnant as a teen I very likely would have run away or killed myself rather than face the shame of telling them and seeing my mother cry. (Luckily for me boys avoided me with a thirty-foot pole. :p)

The whole situation is awful...probably they both should get counselling on how to handle crisis situations, safe sex and whatnot. Legally...can he be charged with assault if the girl explicitly gave him permission and isn't pressing charges? Would either one of them be considered legally competent to be responsible for their actions, since evidently they were under some serious anguish (the girl particularly, if she'd let him beat her...with the boy it's harder to tell but still possible.) I'll have to ask my husband (he's a lawyer) about this one...

All I can say is that I'd hate to be the judge or a juror on this case.

I don't know whats worse! American law and education (or lack of) that ultimately was responsible for the two teenagers taking the action they did or Commando2 immediately taking the moral high ground without even thinking what it must have been like for the couple involved.



You want me to look at it from the murdering teenagers perspective? Get real. Those two infidels who killed that innocent baby should be put on death row. They made the choice to have sex before marriage. Thats bad and immoral enough. Then they decide to kill their own kid? Disgusting.

Disguisting. Sentence them both.

http://img142.exs.cx/img142/923/vomit4pf.gifhttp://img142.exs.cx/img142/923/vomit4pf.gifhttp://img142.exs.cx/img142/923/vomit4pf.gifhttp://img142.exs.cx/img142/923/vomit4pf.gifhttp://img142.exs.cx/img142/923/vomit4pf.gifhttp://img142.exs.cx/img142/923/vomit4pf.gifhttp://img142.exs.cx/img142/923/vomit4pf.gifhttp://img142.exs.cx/img142/923/vomit4pf.gifhttp://img142.exs.cx/img142/923/vomit4pf.gifhttp://img142.exs.cx/img142/923/vomit4pf.gif

ALL abortion is evil. Why won't people realize that?

You want me to look at it from the murdering teenagers perspective? Get real. Those two infidels who killed that innocent baby should be put on death row. They made the choice to have sex before marriage. Thats bad and immoral enough. Then they decide to kill their own kid? Disgusting.


Lets hope that if you have kids, you make available or give them enough sex education and guidance to make a similar scenario with your own teenage daughter/son hughly unlikely.
I think that foir a so called human your sadly lacking in humanity for others, but before you start shouting at me "What about the baby they killed?" try to imagine what it would be like to be a young teenager, pregnant, with strict parents who would probably disown you if they knew you were pregnant outside marriage and the thought that your entire family and community would ostracise you because of it. These are huge pressures for anyone let alone a teenager who has maybe had little or no sex education.

How would you feel if it was your little sister?

Charge the boy, he came up with the idea. They could have gotten a regular abortion. He should also be charged with assaulting his girlfriend.

The boy should probably be charged with child endangerment - not for the fetus, but the danger he caused to the girlfriend. If the boyfriend is charged, the girlfriend should be charged with something, but I'm not sure what.

... Is this really an acceptable form of abortion that should not be punished?Then why let the mom walk?

If the boyfriend is charged, the girlfriend should be charged with something, but I'm not sure what.

i don't know either, but the punishment had better include some solid factually based sex-ed and a tattoo of the phone number for the nearest family planning office on her arm.

of course, i don't think either of them should be charged with anything really.

..I honestly feel like I want to grab a tourch and burn down every abortion clinic in the country. Of course I would never do that because....
lame :gundge:

Lets hope that if you have kids, you make available or give them enough sex education and guidance to make a similar scenario with your own teenage daughter/son hughly unlikely.
I think that foir a so called human your sadly lacking in humanity for others, but before you start shouting at me "What about the baby they killed?" try to imagine what it would be like to be a young teenager, pregnant, with strict parents who would probably disown you if they knew you were pregnant outside marriage and the thought that your entire family and community would ostracise you because of it. These are huge pressures for anyone let alone a teenager who has maybe had little or no sex education.


I have no sympathy for those 2 infidel kids. They murdered their child without regret and should be punished. If I were an eye for an eye type of person I would say we beat them both to death over a 2 week period. But since I'm nice I think we should just give them the electric chair. I probably would disown my kid if she got pregnant and had an abortion. She'd be thrown right out of my house. That "Its my body my choice" shit isn't going to fly with me for one damn minute. Those 2 kids deserve to be hated by their community and they deserve death row.

I have no sympathy for those 2 infidel kids. They murdered their child without regret and should be punished. If I were an eye for an eye type of person I would say we beat them both to death over a 2 week period. But since I'm nice I think we should just give them the electric chair. I probably would disown my kid if she got pregnant and had an abortion. She'd be thrown right out of my house. That "Its my body my choice" shit isn't going to fly with me for one damn minute. Those 2 kids deserve to be hated by their community and they deserve death row.

So you think disowning your daughter and calling for two 16 year olds to be executed is "nice"?

So you think disowning your daughter and calling for two 16 year olds to be executed is "nice"?
DUh, they killed an unliving baby THUS they are spawn of satan and not worth living themselves.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/metro/0501/05/A01-50709.htm

A couple of teenagers decided to abort their baby by the boyfriend hitting his girlfriend in the stomach with a baseball bat. He hit his girlfriend repeatedly over a two week period until she miscarried, then they buried the baby in the backyard. The boy, 16, is charged with intentional conduct against a pregnancy or stillbirth, which is a felony. The girl is not being charged as there is no law on the books related to her involvement.

What do you think of this situation?

hmmmi think i saw this on the "family guy" once...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42239

After the beatings, the dead baby boy was delivered at approximately 6 months gestation on Oct. 4. After the police were notified, the buried body was discovered in November.

The report of the county's medical examiner indicates the baby was premature and not viable at the time of the miscarriage. The report lists the cause of death as blunt impact of the maternal abdomen.

So, the baby was not viable as it was dead due to beating. Shouldn't a murder charge be considered?

It looks like hiding it from the parents didn't figure in.

http://www.detnews.com/2004/metro/0411/17/A01-7649.htm

Police said the boy's mother helped transport the fetus to her home and bury it in the backyard.

The police should have done what they always do when the pearsons been a dumbass, charge them with careless driving.

I have no sympathy for those 2 infidel kids. They murdered their child without regret and should be punished. If I were an eye for an eye type of person I would say we beat them both to death over a 2 week period. But since I'm nice I think we should just give them the electric chair. I probably would disown my kid if she got pregnant and had an abortion. She'd be thrown right out of my house. That "Its my body my choice" shit isn't going to fly with me for one damn minute. Those 2 kids deserve to be hated by their community and they deserve death row.

Oh your just full of love and niceness, arent you! I pity any child you may have, with such an unbending sense of morality you are no better than the two teenagers you are condemning, in fact your probably worse!

Oh your just full of love and niceness, arent you! I pity any child you may have, with such an unbending sense of morality you are no better than the two teenagers you are condemning, in fact your probably worse!

How am I worse than those two infidels? I am for life, they are murderers. There is a big difference between protecting life and killing innocent children.

How am I worse than those two infidels? I am for life, they are murderers. There is a big difference between protecting life and killing innocent children.
didnt you say they should kill the SIXTEEN year olds?

you know what hypocrisy is right? or irony?

Yes, I said we should put the sixteen year olds on death row for killing an innocent baby. Sounds fair to me. If they ask for forgiveness and publicly renounce their crime they can get life in prison.

How am I worse than those two infidels? I am for life, they are murderers. There is a big difference between protecting life and killing innocent children.


Your unbelievably stupid arent you!
You think it's ok to kill two teenagers for being ill informed and probably a bit stupid, their actions were because they are the product of society, a society that, in their case, suppressed sex ed and made them feel that to get rid of the unborn child was the only way out of a bad situation.
Your attitude just stinks.

You are way worse than the two kids are, no question.

They should both be prosecuted for first-degree murder.

Your unbelievably stupid arent you!
You think it's ok to kill two teenagers for being ill informed and probably a bit stupid, their actions were because they are the product of society, a society that, in their case, suppressed sex ed and made them feel that to get rid of the unborn child was the only way out of a bad situation.
Your attitude just stinks.

You are way worse than the two kids are, no question.

Abstinance only education would have helped them. But evil things like pornography and MTV videos made them do it. Our society is disgusting because we let the hollywood elitists run everything. We let people make idols out of them. And we allow evil groups like playboy to exist. They are to blame, not abstinance ed, which helps.

Abstinance only education would have helped them. But evil things like pornography and MTV videos made them do it. Our society is disgusting because we let the hollywood elitists run everything. We let people make idols out of them. And we allow evil groups like playboy to exist. They are to blame, not abstinance ed, which helps.

Are you for real?

Abstinence ed doesn't work, telling kids not to do something is a sure way to arouse their curiosity and is more likely to lead them down the path you think they should avoid.

MTV and pornography have little to do with anything, kids have been experimenting with sex long before MTV came on air or pornography became easy to aquire.

I get the feeling you are either just taking the piss for the fun of it or you are sadly lacking in any kind of sex ed or compassion yourself.

Yes, I said we should put the sixteen year olds on death row for killing an innocent baby. Sounds fair to me. If they ask for forgiveness and publicly renounce their crime they can get life in prison.
Let me guess, do you live in Texas?

Let me guess, do you live in Texas?

Nope, Massachusetts.

Abstinance only education would have helped them. But evil things like pornography and MTV videos made them do it. Our society is disgusting because we let the hollywood elitists run everything. We let people make idols out of them. And we allow evil groups like playboy to exist. They are to blame, not abstinance ed, which helps.

Anyone who knows me on these boards know that I am pro-life. I am also pro-kids. When I see something like this happen, I think we need to look around and see what influences made these kids think this was an appropriate way to deal with an unwanted pregnancy. Why couldn't they go to their parents, or a teacher, or a minister with their problem? Why were they so uninformed of the availability of adoption for their child? Why did they even conceive of beating a child to death in utero? Where were the adults that should have been teaching these kids about right and wrong? How can we warehouse our kids at school then shuffle them out of our way at home and expect them to raise themselves to be reasonable, responsible people?
They have done something very stupid and extremely brutal and they should be punished in some way. But execution or life in prison? These are kids who did something stupid, not serial killers. In my opinion, the best thing to do is to give both of them something like probation and extensive counseling. Then their homes should be looked at to find out how they are being raised...or not raised.

Yes, kids have some poor role models and pornography is readily available. But, they also have some very good role models and they can be taught the damage that pornography, drugs, alcohol, premarital sex, etc can cause. These kids are the product, not the source, of what is wrong.

Anyone who knows me on these boards know that I am pro-life. I am also pro-kids. When I see something like this happen, I think we need to look around and see what influences made these kids think this was an appropriate way to deal with an unwanted pregnancy. Why couldn't they go to their parents, or a teacher, or a minister with their problem? Why were they so uninformed of the availability of adoption for their child? Why did they even conceive of beating a child to death in utero? Where were the adults that should have been teaching these kids about right and wrong? How can we warehouse our kids at school then shuffle them out of our way at home and expect them to raise themselves to be reasonable, responsible people?
They have done something very stupid and extremely brutal and they should be punished in some way. But execution or life in prison? These are kids who did something stupid, not serial killers. In my opinion, the best thing to do is to give both of them something like probation and extensive counseling. Then their homes should be looked at to find out how they are being raised...or not raised.

Yes, kids have some poor role models and pornography is readily available. But, they also have some very good role models and they can be taught the damage that pornography, drugs, alcohol, premarital sex, etc can cause. These kids are the product, not the source, of what is wrong.

Well said!

They're 16, well old enough to know the difference between right and wrong. He'll, in a year, they'll be old enough to join the United States military -- they're already old enough to join up in Canada. They should be prosecuted to the full extent the law permits.

Well said!

Thank you. I adopted 4 kids that were headed the wrong way and others had given up on them. Each one of them grew up to be hard working, responsible adults. The best part is that each of them became loving, giving parents and gave me 9 (2 of which are adopted) grandchildren. I tried to raise them as my folks raised me and it must have worked.

They're 16, well old enough to know the difference between right and wrong. He'll, in a year, they'll be old enough to join the United States military -- they're already old enough to join up in Canada. They should be prosecuted to the full extent the law permits.

I think we all know they that knew what they did was wrong but right and wrong is subjective.
They may have thought it less of a wrong than having to tell the girls parents she was pregnant.

16 may be adult in the eyes of the law in some places but as the father of a 16 year old I can say with experience that at 16 some people are still more of a kid than adult and they have still to develop a maturity that would let them make a more informed and sensible choice.

I just have one thing to say... these people violated the law and thus should be punished as according the law.

That said... these people are fucking monsters. I would wish that these two be spayed/neutered like the animals they are.

Thank you. I adopted 4 kids that were headed the wrong way and others had given up on them. Each one of them grew up to be hard working, responsible adults. The best part is that each of them became loving, giving parents and gave me 9 (2 of which are adopted) grandchildren. I tried to raise them as my folks raised me and it must have worked.

My wife was brought up in care, she could easily have been one of those two teenagers if it were not for some loving undertanding of her adoptive parents. I get so angry when lynch mobs condemn children (and these two teenagers *are* still kids) for making a tragic mistake.

I think we all know they that knew what they did was wrong but right and wrong is subjective.

No it isn't. There are no shades of grey when it comes to morality.


They may have thought it less of a wrong than having to tell the girls parents she was pregnant.

They thought that slaughtering an unborn child incapable of defending itself was the more morally correct of the two options. Are you defending them? Sounds to me like you're making a case for the death penalty.


16 may be adult in the eyes of the law in some places
You're right, and that's the only thing that matters.

I just have one thing to say... these people violated the law and thus should be punished as according the law.

That said... these people are fucking monsters. I would wish that these two be spayed/neutered like the animals they are.

There have been a few monstors posting on this thread and I'm not talking about the two teenagers who are the subject of the thread.
I think it would do you and commando2 some good to take a long hard look at yourselves, I don't think you would like what you see.

Both are disturbed, misguided children. Frankly, the world is better without their offspring.

On a more serious note, this is symptomatic of the larger dilemma of governmental regulation of reproductive rights. Before Roe v. Wade, there were back alley abortions in the U.S..

The answer is simple and obvious, folks. Once men are able to have babies, then we can tell women what to do with their bodies.

Until that day comes, the choice is hers. Period.

There have been a few monstors posting on this thread and I'm not talking about the two teenagers who are the subject of the thread.
I think it would do you and commando2 some good to take a long hard look at yourselves, I don't think you would like what you see.

Congratulations on totally misreading what I said. As I stated previously, they should be punished according to law. However, my personal wish is for castration/legs sewn up so these people can never commit such a disgusting act again.

For the record, I generally support the right for abortion, slong as you aren't doing stuff like this.

No it isn't. There are no shades of grey when it comes to morality..

Of course there are! Morality itself is subjective.
I think killing *anyone* is morally wrong, some people would disagree with that.


They thought that slaughtering an unborn child incapable of defending itself was the more morally correct of the two options. Are you defending them? Sounds to me like you're making a case for the death penalty..

I never said they made the correct moral choice, I said that in their minds it may have seemed the lesser of two evils, or to put it another way they may have thought that by aborting the child the problem would sort itself and they wouldn't have to face up to the girls parents.
What we really have to ask is what kind of moral guidance, support and love could the young girl hope to get from her parents if she told them she was pregnant? Maybe she knew all too well what the answer to that was and thats maybe why they took the action they did.

(I am against the death penalty for any reason and against anyone by the way)

16 may be adult in the eyes of the law in some places

You're right, and that's the only thing that matters.
No it isn't, like I said earlier 16 doesn't mean you can reason like an adult or have the experience to make rational decisions, 16 years old still means you have a lot of learning to do.

Congratulations on totally misreading what I said. As I stated previously, they should be punished according to law. However, my personal wish is for castration/legs sewn up so these people can never commit such a disgusting act again.

For the record, I generally support the right for abortion, slong as you aren't doing stuff like this.

I really hope no kids of yours ever make a mistake.

Of course there are! Morality itself is subjective.

Killing without sufficient justification is wrong. Period.


I think killing *anyone* is morally wrong, some people would disagree with that.
I imagine you would find yourself very much alone in holding that opinion.




I never said they made the correct moral choice, I said that in their minds it may have seemed the lesser of two evils, or to put it another way they may have thought that by aborting the child the problem would sort itself and they wouldn't have to face up to the girls parents.

They were wrong, and should be fully prosecuted and punished for their disgusting offense.


What we really have to ask is what kind of moral guidance, support and love could the young girl hope to get from her parents if she told them she was pregnant? Maybe she knew all too well what the answer to that was and thats maybe why they took the action they did.
[quote]
Then she should have DAMN well kept her legs closed!

(I am against the death penalty for any reason and against anyone by the way)

I'm not surprised.



No it isn't, like I said earlier 16 doesn't mean you can reason like an adult or have the experience to make rational decisions, 16 years old still means you have a lot of learning to do.
The law considers themselves to be adults for the purposes of criminal prosecution, and that's the only thing that matters.

Killing without sufficient justification is wrong. Period. .

There is no justification for taking a life, but sometimes there are laws which allow it, that does not make it right.
The teenage couple were wrong to take the action they did, I'm not saying otherwise, but I believe they need help not persecution, they probably couldn't see any other way out of the situation and that is the fault of their parents and the education system.


I imagine you would find yourself very much alone in holding that opinion..

I am not alone, far from it!
Try here for a start http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news/press/15647.shtml



They were wrong, and should be fully prosecuted and punished for their disgusting offense..

Yes they were wrong but I think they have been punished enough, they need help and understanding now and above all we need to widen our sex ecucation in schools and perhaps give parenting lessons to those who are still in the dark ages.




The law considers themselves to be adults for the purposes of criminal prosecution, and that's the only thing that matters.

Nothing is ever as balck and white as you would like it to be. If they had abducted a child and killed it I would agree with you to an extent but they didn't, they aborted a foetus to save the girl from the wrath of her parents and the community at large, ironically by doing so they have brought an even greater wrath upon themselves, do you really believe they did this for any other reason than I have already said?

When people are scared, they don't think straight. I do not condone in any way the wrong they have done.

And they will pay for this the rest of their lives - do you truly think the pair are monster enough that they have no consciences? I think they do.

They are barely more than scared children, who in panic and fear came up with a hideously bad idea, and yes a potential life has had it's chance taken away....but as I believe in reincarnation, to me this life has a chance to come again....these two, already here will have to live their lives with the consequences of what they've done...and yes I believe that there should be some punishment dealt out to them, and A LOT of counceling.

But it does sound as if the families of this pair have failed them as well. Why were they so afraid to speak to some one that they were driven to this?

My heart aches for all three.

and before you start screaming - I am pro abortion, and pro death penality.

and before you start screaming - I am pro abortion, and pro death penality.

I say we bring back the death penalty for every crime. Including traffic offences. Of course..

you guys didnt even listen to cog did ya's??

I think they were quite creative in thinking of such an effective and cheap method, those abortion clinics cost a fortune!

seriously Abstinance education is useless, these kids needed to be tought there was other ways to prevent this

When people are scared, they don't think straight. I do not condone in any way the wrong they have done.

And they will pay for this the rest of their lives - do you truly think the pair are monster enough that they have no consciences? I think they do.

They are barely more than scared children, who in panic and fear came up with a hideously bad idea, and yes a potential life has had it's chance taken away....but as I believe in reincarnation, to me this life has a chance to come again....these two, already here will have to live their lives with the consequences of what they've done...and yes I believe that there should be some punishment dealt out to them, and A LOT of counceling.

But it does sound as if the families of this pair have failed them as well. Why were they so afraid to speak to some one that they were driven to this?

My heart aches for all three.

and before you start screaming - I am pro abortion, and pro death penality.


Yes! These are kids we're talking about. From first hand experience with 16 year olds, they often do not take the time to formulate several options and then pick the best one. They look at a situation and go with the first thing that looks like it might work. They don't have the life experiences to understand the ramifications of their actions. That is where adult supervision and guidance is required. What these kids did is horrendous, but, I say again, they are the product, not the source of the real problem.

They should both be punished to the extent of the law. If they didn't want a baby they shouldn't have been fooling around. With each generation society tries more and more to do away with the custom of taking responsibility for your actions.

We're not that far from 0% personal responsibility, at least when it comes to sexual behavior, with the exception of rape. That was well said Correction.

There is no justification for taking a life, but sometimes there are laws which allow it, that does not make it right.

Nothing is ever as balck and white as you would like it to be. If they had abducted a child and killed it I would agree with you to an extent but they didn't, they aborted a foetus to save the girl from the wrath of her parents and the community at large, ironically by doing so they have brought an even greater wrath upon themselves, do you really believe they did this for any other reason than I have already said?

You are probably right about what they were trying to do. That doesn't make it any less a murder. All the good intentions in the world can't justify what they did to an innocent life.

As for your first statement, if someone was attacking, torturing, murdering your child and the only way you could stop them was to kill them, would you?

Sex education sucks. Not only does it promote immorality, but it leads to more pregnacies and STDs. Abstinance-only education teaches people to live moral lives and works better, even though these die hard liberals claim it doesn't. Yet these stupid and worthless sub-human potheads get pregnant anyway no matter what you tell them and should be forced to live with it. By allowing them to murder their baby you are not only helping in an evil genocide program worse than the holocaust you are telling them "Its ok do it again." We have to make a firm stand against abortion by outlawing it unless the mother will die. And if any stupid pricks like these kids decide to kill their children anyway we should put them in prison for life.
You do know that statisticaly abstinence only education leads to both a higher std and pregnancy rate right?

Wrong. Sex education promotes immoral sex in the first place, and encourages contraception and the evil morning after pill(murder) while you act immorally.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/metro/0501/05/A01-50709.htm

A couple of teenagers decided to abort their baby by the boyfriend hitting his girlfriend in the stomach with a baseball bat. He hit his girlfriend repeatedly over a two week period until she miscarried, then they buried the baby in the backyard. The boy, 16, is charged with intentional conduct against a pregnancy or stillbirth, which is a felony. The girl is not being charged as there is no law on the books related to her involvement.

What do you think of this situation?
I think that they couldn't afford a normal abortion and they had no choice; they didn't want to try to raise a child when they knew they can't. Yeah, it's a sick way of doing it, but it had to be done.

Wrong. Sex education promotes immoral sex in the first place, and encourages contraception and the evil morning after pill(murder) while you act immorally.

^ Wow, this is almost as good as Neo's assertion once that bacteria don't multiply. Not quite, but almost as idiotic a statement.

How am I worse than those two infidels? I am for life, they are murderers. There is a big difference between protecting life and killing innocent children. Ummm, how can someone say they are for life when they are advocating the death penalty for minors, or the death penalty for anyone for that matter? I still don't get you people who call yourself pro-life. A person who was truly pro-life would not only be anti-abortion but would be anti-death penalty and anti-war.

. . . if someone was attacking, torturing, murdering your child and the only way you could stop them was to kill them, would you? Uh, yes, but that's not what is being discussed here.

You're actually saying if someone had attacked, tortured, or murdered your child would you advocate the death penalty?

The fetus is dead, not in the process of being murdered.

There is no threat to the fetus at this point because it's dead -- beyond threat. There's two teenagers who have IQs in the single digits. One, the boy, attacked the girl and his child. The other, the girl, agreed to be assaulted every day for two weeks.

Had I come upon the boy beating the girl during the two week period, no, I don't think the only way to stop him would have been to kill him or his beaten-up, dumb-ass girlfriend.

I would have frog-marched him to the nearest police station and had him charged for assault and battery and probably terroristic threatening. If he was too big for me I would've called the cops.

The real irony of this story is that the kids wanted an abortion and they chose a method that caused undue suffering to an unborn child, and endangered the mother's life. Though I don't agree with it, legal, safe abortions are pretty much available on demand in this country. Hundreds of thousands are performed every year. Why did these kids resort to such a method? Why did they feel they had to? Were they informed of alternatives to abortion, such as adoption? Obviously, they didn't choose abortion by beating as an easy alternative. Why?

This is awful. Another baby murdered by abortion. Now about 30.2 million children have been killed by this genocide known as abortion. Those 2 people involved in this should be locked up for life since they murdered a helpless child. My prayers for the poor soul :( .

I once again tell you to look up the word genocide.

The real irony of this story is that the kids wanted an abortion and they chose a method that caused undue suffering to an unborn child, and endangered the mother's life. Though I don't agree with it, legal, safe abortions are pretty much available on demand in this country. Hundreds of thousands are performed every year. Why did these kids resort to such a method? Why did they feel they had to? Were they informed of alternatives to abortion, such as adoption? Obviously, they didn't choose abortion by beating as an easy alternative. Why?

One can only assume that lack of education and a break down in parental guidance are to blame for the choices these two teenagers made.

The questions that really need to be answered are;

Why couldn't the girl tell her parents she was pregnant?
What would their reaction be if she had told them?
Could she have got an abortion without her parents consent?
Did she even know what steps to take when enquiring about abortion?
Were the young couple taught anything about contraception and was it easily available to them?

Like I said earlier, I believe they are more to be pitied than vilified, they need help and councelling and perhaps their parents need some councelling too.

The real irony of this story is that the kids wanted an abortion and they chose a method that caused undue suffering to an unborn child, and endangered the mother's life. Though I don't agree with it, legal, safe abortions are pretty much available on demand in this country. Hundreds of thousands are performed every year. Why did these kids resort to such a method? Why did they feel they had to? Were they informed of alternatives to abortion, such as adoption? Obviously, they didn't choose abortion by beating as an easy alternative. Why?

Maybe they were scared of the rabid mobs of anti-abortion protestors that harrass and abuse anyone even seen approaching a abortion clinic? Hrm?

Maybe they were scared of the rabid mobs of anti-abortion protestors that harrass and abuse anyone even seen approaching a abortion clinic? Hrm?

Puh-leez. Abortion clinics operate freely all over this country and my tax dollars partially support these "family planning" clinics. I, nor anyone I know, have never protested in front of one of these places. We strive to let would-be parents know that there are alternatives to abortion. We also try to let them know that the life that is being threatened is a human child. We do this through a call-in hotline, shelters, and free counseling. Many would prefer to give birth, but don't know how to deal with adverse family and peer pressures.

If they were smart they would of gone to the local abortionary and used the baseball bat to chase away the crazies out front harassing people who need abortions. ;)

the boy shall be lynched and the girl will commit suicide


i'm a vigilante :D

Puh-leez. Abortion clinics operate freely all over this country and my tax dollars partially support these "family planning" clinics. I, nor anyone I know, have never protested in front of one of these places. We strive to let would-be parents know that there are alternatives to abortion. We also try to let them know that the life that is being threatened is a human child. We do this through a call-in hotline, shelters, and free counseling. Many would prefer to give birth, but don't know how to deal with adverse family and peer pressures.

Oh, I wasn't directing that at you by any means - you're one of the most reasonable people in this thread... sorry it came across wrong.

But there *are* protestors outside of a large number of them (here in Australia, at any rate), and they're fucking scary. I had to go into four abortion clinics for a school project I was doing (stupid debate team... *mutters*). I'm female and was 16 at the time. And hurrah, I got my hair pulled, spat on and beaten with signs. At three of the four clinics. What fun.

And people wonder why I find the radical anti-abortion people distasteful :rolleyes:

Oh, I wasn't directing that at you by any means - you're one of the most reasonable people in this thread... sorry it came across wrong.

But there *are* protestors outside of a large number of them (here in Australia, at any rate), and they're fucking scary. I had to go into four abortion clinics for a school project I was doing (stupid debate team... *mutters*). I'm female and was 16 at the time. And hurrah, I got my hair pulled, spat on and beaten with signs. At three of the four clinics. What fun.

And people wonder why I find the radical anti-abortion people distasteful :rolleyes:

I'm sorry that happened to you and is happening to others. You never get through to people by beating them with your opinions. I've found that most people visualize a fetus as an unrecognizeable blob of inanimate flesh. Fairly early on in a pregnancy the fetus develops recognizeable human characteristics. Often, the awareness of this causes people to realize that abortion is truly the killing of another person...your own child. Once they make that connection and they are provided with examples of the mutilation and dismemberment (and accompanying pain) involved in an abortion, they are willing to make the effort of a few months pregnancy.

I'm sorry that happened to you and is happening to others. You never get through to people by beating them with your opinions. I've found that most people visualize a fetus as an unrecognizeable blob of inanimate flesh. Fairly early on in a pregnancy the fetus develops recognizeable human characteristics. Often, the awareness of this causes people to realize that abortion is truly the killing of another person...your own child. Once they make that connection and they are provided with examples of the mutilation and dismemberment (and accompanying pain) involved in an abortion, they are willing to make the effort of a few months pregnancy.

I see. I'm not going to comment, because I don't handle abortion debates well, and have already been almost-officially-warned twice.

Suffice it to say I think you're battle to inform people would be much better placed before the women is pregnant - by providing thorough sex-ed in schools, and removing sexual messages from the media.

They're both kids themselves, I don't think either should get charged- at least not that harshly.

The fact they chose such a drastic measure- they must have been terrified to have anyone find out about it. Personally I don't think people of any age would try to abort a baby with that method without having severe emotional/mental problems that should be dealt with.

Psych evaluation, counsling- an investigation to see if they are in abusive situations. If you're afraid of being beaten to death for having sex/getting pregnant by a family member, I think you'd be more willing to get beaten by someone to prevent that.

Personally, I'm pro-choice, but only if done early- and I feel it should never be used as a form of birth control... but I don't think jail is the answer for the boyfriend. You send a kid in, especially for something like that- they come out worse then they went in.

But then again I was a psych major for a while and believe more in rehabillitation of people when it's possible and appropriate, and in a case like this- I think it's really what they need.

So many people want answers right now. They want to know what's going to happen to these children, what punishment will be inflected on someone else.

So little people want to ask "why." Because getting to the root of the problem is painful when it involves yourself, and admitting mistakes can be so hard...



Why did they do it? Probebly because of us.

I'm pro-abortion. I think women should be able to have an abortion before the foetus is viable. But that story is just sick. They should both be charged equally, and there should be no parole.

This actually happened in the town I grew up in. I've seen the boy around, and suprisingly, they are still together after all this. Personally, I think they should both be charged, along with the mother who helped bury the kid.

I think just the boy should be charged, not only is he punished, while he is in prison or a young offenders institution or whatever, the girl has to cope with the idea her boyfriend is in prison over something she wanted and allowed him to do. Also, with them seperated, they might actually think of the wrongly deceased child.

This actually happened in the town I grew up in. I've seen the boy around, and suprisingly, they are still together after all this. Personally, I think they should both be charged, along with the mother who helped bury the kid.

We've all been speculating on the family backgrounds of these kids and how it may have influenced their decision. Any insight?

There is no justification for taking a life, but sometimes there are laws which allow it, that does not make it right.

And would that include self-defense?


Yes they were wrong but I think they have been punished enough, they need help and understanding now and above all we need to widen our sex ecucation in schools and perhaps give parenting lessons to those who are still in the dark ages.

They murdered, in cold blood and with pre-meditation, an innocent, defenseless unborn child. It is not possible for them to be "punished enough" on this world.





Nothing is ever as balck and white as you would like it to be. If they had abducted a child and killed it I would agree with you to an extent but they didn't, they aborted a foetus to save the girl from the wrath of her parents and the community at large, ironically by doing so they have brought an even greater wrath upon themselves, do you really believe they did this for any other reason than I have already said?
They murdered, in cold blood and with pre-meditation, an innocent, defenseless unborn child, and why? So they wouldn't be inconvenienced. I can think of no crime more henious than this.

Ok, I'm gonna say what nobody else appears to have said barring "they must've been scared".

You're 16 years old and have had sex with your girlfriend, you've been in a meaningful relationship for seven months. One day you find out that you're pregnant, and at 16, any thoughts of college you once had dissapear infront of your eyes.

What do you do?

You can't afford an abortion, thats 300 bucks, and thats IF your parents would let you get one anyway.

Nowhere in this story was it mentioned whether these two kids did or didn't use protection when having sex. It is entirely plausible that they did, contraception, female (pill) male (condom) and even both in conjunction can fail.

So what're you left with? Both of your futures conceivably ruined by an accident? A Child that you couldn't hope to raise as you know your children should be raised? Or as a messed up, emotional and terrified teenager are you gonna think of this and see it as the only feasible way out? (Barring giving birth).

I don't agree with what these kids did, but I think everyone needs to pay close attention to the fact that when it came to abortion, these kids didn't see themselves as being given a choice, so they acted out of desperation.

When you're that young and scared, maybe to you shouldn't be having sex. But kids will and do, that's what a legal age of sexual consent is for. As for abstinence only sex education, I think I can quite safely tell you that it is an extremely bad idea. Abstinence only education and pledges only end in more STD's and unplanned pregnancies as when sexual encounters do occur (and this IS before marriage in the majority of cases) no protection is used.

They murdered, in cold blood and with pre-meditation, an innocent, defenseless unborn child, and why? So they wouldn't be inconvenienced. I can think of no crime more henious than this.
killing some one already alive?

They murdered, in cold blood and with pre-meditation, an innocent, defenseless unborn child, and why? So they wouldn't be inconvenienced. I can think of no crime more henious than this.

Your like a broken record!
You also seem to have no ability to see further than your own blood lust for retribution at all costs.

We are talking about two young kids, not hardened criminals or murderers. One of the kids could have been you, easily, if you had no access to sex ed, contraception and maybe had strict fundamentalist god botherers for parents. No teenager would wan't to find themselves in the same situation as these two but maybe other teenagers would have understanding parents to turn to, or would have had some sex education and guidance to allow them the information they needed to make the "right" choice.

Wouldn't the world be a better place if everyone were as pure as you?

They murdered, in cold blood and with pre-meditation, an innocent, defenseless unborn child, and why? So they wouldn't be inconvenienced. I can think of no crime more henious than this.

I think killing an actual person would be more heinous.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/metro/0501/05/A01-50709.htm

A couple of teenagers decided to abort their baby by the boyfriend hitting his girlfriend in the stomach with a baseball bat. He hit his girlfriend repeatedly over a two week period until she miscarried, then they buried the baby in the backyard. The boy, 16, is charged with intentional conduct against a pregnancy or stillbirth, which is a felony. The girl is not being charged as there is no law on the books related to her involvement.

What do you think of this situation?Hey, eh, remember the coathanger abortions the crazy pro-choice people were going on about? Yeah. You see, we didn't make that stuff up, Richard Cranium. Pardon me while I become a little ill.

I'm pro-choice, but this is just crazy. I think they should both be charged equally. The girl should have just gotten a regular abortion, in my opinion.

I'm pro-choice, but this is just crazy. I think they should both be charged equally. The girl should have just gotten a regular abortion, in my opinion.Perhaps that wasn't an option.

Whew!

I've just got to throw in my two cents here.
In the town that I live in, there is an abnormally high rate of teenage pregnancy. Something like 50% of girls have at least one child by the time they are in their senior year of high school. It is very unusual to see a 20-year old girl without a couple of kids in tow.
There are reasons for this--first of all, it is a vicious cycle. Their moms had kids early and had little education, and so on.
The nearest Planned Parenthood is 30-45 minutes away. Not too many girls have a way to get there. The clinic that was in town closed down due to lack of funding.
There is a lack of sex ed in the two local high schools. For example, the special ed kids have a health class in middle school that deals somewhat with sex, mostly about how the male and female body works. There is no class for them in high school. Well, just because you have a learning disability doesn't mean you're not going to have sex.
I had an excellent sex ed class in high school that talked about every type of contraceptive, abstinence, adoption, etc. so I don't know about abstinence-only type education, but it seems like only addressing part of the problem.
First off, it is not uncommon for people get married in their late 20's or even 30's nowadays. I find it highly doubtful that very many people are able to wait that long before having sex. I personally managed to wait until I was 20, but I didn't get married until I was 25.
Second, what if you get married but decide not to have children, or at least wait for a while? Not to mention the fact that having sex outside of marriage is 'wrong' only if your religion or personal beliefs dictate so. You cannot say that it is wrong for the entire populace to have sex without being married.
Anyway, I feel that I have the right to know what options are available to me as a married person if I don't want any children.
My point is, education. In school. I know an intelligent young woman who is starting her first year of college has a 10 month old son. She herself said that she might not have this child if the clinic came to their school and talked about contraceptives, or even handed them out. She had a difficult time getting to the clinic which as I mentioned is over half an hour away.
In fact, she originally planned to give the child up for adoption but her boyfriend and her parents would not allow it.

I certainly do not condone what these two young people did. It is a horrible tragedy for all three of the individuals involved. There needs to be increased education. Parents need to be involved with their children's lives. Sure, 16-year olds shouldn't be having sex, but there are some 30-year old people out there who shouldn't be having children either.

I don't really know how to fix the situation with the parents. All I can say is please love and support your kids and let them know they can always rely on you for help. If you believe sex outside of marriage is wrong then by all means teach them that, but also teach them WHY you feel that way. Let them know (when they are old enough) about stories like this one. Help them understand that there are serious consequences to their actions and that there are ways to avoid these consequences. (I don't mean just sex, I mean everything: drinking, drugs, stealing, etc etc etc.) If they make a mistake they must fix it but they need to know the proper way to do so (for example SUPPORT ADOPTION). I am big on adoption because there is a huge stigma attached. What, for example, if we had a second child (which we don't want and have taken permanent efforts to avoid--read sterilization) and we wanted to give it up for adoption? Do you think we would find any support from friends, family, the community? Of course not.
These kids are just a symptom of a really sick society that needs to help and support its children.

I think we should beat both of them in the face with a baseball bat and see how they like it.

killing some one already alive?
it was already alive

it was already alive
compared to what? it wasnt "alive" as it could not survive being removed from the womb without being put in a sci-womb

compared to what? it wasnt "alive" as it could not survive being removed from the womb without being put in a sci-womb
so you werent alive when you were six months in existence? So i coulda just walked up there and kicked you in the face and i would be charged with what? Maybe we should throw you in there and beat the three of ya with that baseball bat

http://www.detnews.com/2005/metro/0501/05/A01-50709.htm

A couple of teenagers decided to abort their baby by the boyfriend hitting his girlfriend in the stomach with a baseball bat. He hit his girlfriend repeatedly over a two week period until she miscarried, then they buried the baby in the backyard. The boy, 16, is charged with intentional conduct against a pregnancy or stillbirth, which is a felony. The girl is not being charged as there is no law on the books related to her involvement.

What do you think of this situation?
neither should be charged.

i mean, if anything, the girl was assaulted with a baseball bat, and you can not press charges against someone who assaults you, correct?

i think it's silly that they didn't just go to a clinic and get it taken care of, unless they couldn't afford it or something. or unless the fetus was past the point of viability... but i don't see why they'd put off dealing with it until that point.

so you werent alive when you were six months in existence? So i coulda just walked up there and kicked you in the face and i would be charged with what? Maybe we should throw you in there and beat the three of ya with that baseball bat

Stop appealing to emotion. If you have any thing pertinent to add to the debate, please do, but the stupid emotional attacks don't prove a thing.

neither should be charged.

i mean, if anything, the girl was assaulted with a baseball bat, and you can not press charges against someone who assaults you, correct?

i think it's silly that they didn't just go to a clinic and get it taken care of, unless they couldn't afford it or something. or unless the fetus was past the point of viability... but i don't see why they'd put off dealing with it until that point.

Nah, the final decision about goiong forward with a case is up to the prosecutor, not the victim. Usually they defer to the victims wishes (after all they make shit witnesses if they don't want the case to go ahead) but victims still don't have the final say.

If it goes ahead, they'll have to go to a grand jury next for an indictment.

so you werent alive when you were six months in existence? So i coulda just walked up there and kicked you in the face and i would be charged with what? Maybe we should throw you in there and beat the three of ya with that baseball bat
yeah sure lets go, if you walked up and kicked me int he face at 6monnth (in the womb), you wouldbe kicking a 6month pregnant women and have your sss charged with assault

I think we should beat both of them in the face with a baseball bat and see how they like it.You don't even know the circumstances, sir. Try to be more understanding.

*In reply to the story*
Oh, so now they decide to start putting people in jail for aborting a fetus, it's about time.

*In reply to the story*
Oh, so now they decide to start putting people in jail for aborting a fetus, it's about time.What is it with the conservatives and their obsession with putting people in prison? I don't get it.

It looks to me like two confused teenagers made a mistake that ended up leading to a desperate, horrible act. Have a cup of sympathy.

What is it with the conservatives and their obsession with putting people in prison? I don't get it.

It looks to me like two confused teenagers made a mistake that ended up leading to a desperate, horrible act. Have a cup of sympathy.

Sadly there seems to more people out there (and on this forum) who wouldn't know a cup of understanding if it jumped up and bit them on the arse.
All they seem to see is a rather nasty abortion, they don't wan't to know the why's or the circumstances, they don't seem to have any compassion or understanding for people who, for various reasons, sometimes do silly and nasty stuff to each other.
The bottom line is this, a couple of kids make a mistake and don''t have the where withall to make a rational decision. Perhaps the parents of the girl were too frightening for her to face, perhaps the realisation that she was pregnant was too big a thing for them to deal with. The thought of facing her parents, and the community may have been even more frightening than giving birth out of wedlock.
None of us here can ever know the real reasons, we can only speculate but to condemn a couple of children that more than anything need help and guidance and compassion and care makes all you people shouting for jail time, or the death penalty, or saying that the two kids need belting with a baseball bat, well....in my mind it makes you worse than animals.

Sadly there seems to more people out there (and on this forum) who wouldn't know a cup of understanding if it jumped up and bit them on the arse.
All they seem to see is a rather nasty abortion, they don't wan't to know the why's or the circumstances, they don't seem to have any compassion or understanding for people who, for various reasons, sometimes do silly and nasty stuff to each other.
The bottom line is this, a couple of kids make a mistake and don''t have the where withall to make a rational decision. Perhaps the parents of the girl were too frightening for her to face, perhaps the realisation that she was pregnant was too big a thing for them to deal with. The thought of facing her parents, and the community may have been even more frightening than giving birth out of wedlock.
None of us here can ever know the real reasons, we can only speculate but to condemn a couple of children that more than anything need help and guidance and compassion and care makes all you people shouting for jail time, or the death penalty, or saying that the two kids need belting with a baseball bat, well....in my mind it makes you worse than animals.

As stated, I am pro-life. I cringe at the thought of killing a child in utero. To condemn a child is a mind-set that I am totally unable to understand. That is why I agree with you 100%. These are children we're talking about. The people that should be punished for this are the adults that were responsible for teaching, guiding, and helping these kids.

What is it with the conservatives and their obsession with putting people in prison? I don't get it.

its all part of their brilliant plan to make government smaller by vastly expanding the scariest parts of it.

This is a tragedy of circumstance; however, neither should be charged.

This is awful. Another baby murdered by abortion. Now about 30.2 million children have been killed by this genocide known as abortion. Those 2 people involved in this should be locked up for life since they murdered a helpless child. My prayers for the poor soul :( .

And by the way, I've noticed you keep saying "genocide known as abortion". Abortion is not a genocide: a genocide is the intentional killing of an ethnic group in order to destroy it. Last time I checked, 1) Foetuses wern't an ethnic group and 2) people arn't trying to kill ALL foetuses.

As stated, I am pro-life. I cringe at the thought of killing a child in utero. To condemn a child is a mind-set that I am totally unable to understand. That is why I agree with you 100%. These are children we're talking about. The people that should be punished for this are the adults that were responsible for teaching, guiding, and helping these kids.I am so very pleased to finally meet a compassionate pro-lifer. Thank you for existing. You have made me a happy man.

Actually, most of the pro-lifers I know irl are pretty cool. The ones I meet online, however, kind of put dents in my faith in humanity.

Those who clamour strongest about punishment, cry loudest against education.

The more someone wants someone else to "pay," the less they're interested in the question of "why?"





There is a reason for this...

http://www.detnews.com/2005/metro/0501/05/A01-50709.htm

A couple of teenagers decided to abort their baby by the boyfriend hitting his girlfriend in the stomach with a baseball bat. He hit his girlfriend repeatedly over a two week period until she miscarried, then they buried the baby in the backyard. The boy, 16, is charged with intentional conduct against a pregnancy or stillbirth, which is a felony. The girl is not being charged as there is no law on the books related to her involvement.

What do you think of this situation?

That is sick.

stupid people :sniper: :mp5: :gundge:

And before you flame me, I am pro-choice (not pro-abortion).
But that is still sick.

How about locking up their teachers and parents?

Was there nobody around who could tell them where to get a proper abortion?

Or how to use a condom and a pill in the first place?