NationStates Jolt Archive

Reading the postings of people who are probably too young to remember the paranoid days of the Cold War, I feel like I'm reading stuff I heard a long, long time ago.

I was talking to my wife, who, BTW, is too young to remember the Cold War (she was born in the mid-1970s) in any paranoid detail, and she wondered if people were really "that" paranoid.

We were watching Fail-Safe, and I said, yes, we really were that strained at one time - and bombers were set up to do that sort of thing.

She seemed astonished. Somehow, we managed to live through the Cold War. I feel that the current war on terror will be equally long, bitter, and paranoid.

Just keep in mind that the paranoia is going to get worse over the next few decades before it gets better.

On that note, one of today's episodes of Star Trek: The Next Generation preemptively attacked the Patriot Act. It was #95: The Drumhead (http://sttng.epguides.info/?ID=269).

Who forgot what now?

On that note, one of today's episodes of Star Trek: The Next Generation preemptively attacked the Patriot Act. It was #95: The Drumhead (http://sttng.epguides.info/?ID=269).
That's what I was thinking as I watched it; Satie reminded me of Rumsfeld, in a way.

Who forgot what now?
We forgot the Cold War as well as Poland now. Christ, poor memories collectively in the world.

I'm too young to remember any of the cold war (I was only alive for 3 years of it) but I know how bad it was - look at the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Communist overthrows in SE Asia. Hell, watch a factorial video from that time about anything that can be remotely related to the USSR e.g. I watched a video in Physics from '87 by the UKAEA about nuclear reactors, and the presenter basically just took the piss out of the Russians for faked propaganda, shoddy workmanship and cruelty to workers. It was all true, but no-one knew at the time.

The thing about the cold war (having been alive for 18 years of it) is that it, like the French Revolution, remains too early to tell who won it.

We forgot the Cold War as well as Poland now. Christ, poor memories collectively in the world.

How dare they? Rise up my chilly bretheren! Do not go forgotten into that good night!

How dare they? Rise up my chilly bretheren! Do not go forgotten into that good night!
I'm sorry, who are you? Poland, you say. Sorry old bean, I haven't the foggiest who you are

*drinks Darjeeling tea with a slice of lemon in a china cup, sat in a large office with a roaring fire in the hearth*

I think the biggest difference between the current political situation and that of the cold war is that for the majority of the cold war, citizens were deeply ignorant of the actions of their governments, and therefore really trusted their governments to protect them from perceived threats. They lacked access to reliable information, and they had little or no contact with other view points. There are still people that fall into those categories, but I don't think many so blindly support their governments any more, and despite corporate censorship of the news, we have ready access to alternative viewpoints through the internet...as well as more heterogeneous societies that give us immediate exposure to other cultures. The 'enemy' is not as faceless as the Soviet threat was. That doesn't mean we are more understanding...just more exposed. Yes, people were extremely paranoid back then, but most of that paranoia was directed where the U.S government wanted it...at the Soviets. Now that paranoia includes the U.S government.

We were watching Fail-Safe, and I said, yes, we really were that strained at one time - and bombers were set up to do that sort of thing.

She seemed astonished. Somehow, we managed to live through the Cold War. I feel that the current war on terror will be equally long, bitter, and paranoid.
I've seen Falisafe too, and it is a scary film. Did the US and USSR really send bombers to prepare to nuke each other's cities?

That is astonishing and depressing.

The war on terror, if all goes to plan, will go on forever and become more paranoid.

I've seen Falisafe too, and it is a scary film. Did the US and USSR really send bombers to prepare to nuke each other's cities?

That is astonishing and depressing.

The war on terror, if all goes to plan, will go on forever and become more paranoid.

It was on Doctor Strangelove too so it has to be true :)

I've seen Falisafe too, and it is a scary film. Did the US and USSR really send bombers to prepare to nuke each other's cities?

Yeah, we had bombers up 'round the clock ready to head towards Russia as soon as the word came over the radio. We finally stopped about 1985, I think. Granted, i don't remember the Cold War either, as I was born in 1983.

The really scary thing about Sputnik in 1957 was not that Russia had beat up into space, but that Russia had a rocket which could launch something into space, or it could be used to launch a nuke at us. There was a mass paranoia after that one.

I remember doing Nuclear Alert tests.

Stupid.

You were supposed to put your head under your desk. :rolleyes:

At least the teacher had a good joke. "You know why you are supposed to do this? It's so the teachers can run from the room." ;)"

Fail-Safe is an excellent film!

You never had the stupid desk drill in the USSR. The government was brutally honest about the effects of nuclear war, public information films of tethered animals and buildings being vapourised in tests, etc. And casualty/fallout calculation sliderulers. The result being, a populace (and military) entirely against any nuclear exchange. The real threat to the world was probably from the West, as it was generally more ignorant and consequently gung-ho about nuclear war. The conscript Russian military would have almost certainly disregarded any first strike order.

Did the US and USSR really send bombers to prepare to nuke each other's cities?

Well, it depended on the exact alert and DEFCON (DEFense CONdition) status, but for most of the 50s, 1/3 of the fleet of B-52s were on ground alert (armed and ready to take off in a matter of minutes) and occassionally on airborne alert drills.

In 1959 SAC went to a system of round the clock airborne alert. The number of aircraft in the air was usually 12, but on certain occassions (the Cuban Missile in particular) many more were on airborne alert.
The airborne alert system was ended in 1968, partly due to the danger of crashes (we lost a few B-52s in crashes between 1966 and 1968, but more to the fact that the missile forces were able to respond more quickly by that time.

This explains alot about it: http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avb52_1.html#m6

You never had the stupid desk drill in the USSR. The government was brutally honest about the effects of nuclear war, public information films of tethered animals and buildings being vapourised in tests, etc. And casualty/fallout calculation sliderulers. The result being, a populace (and military) entirely against any nuclear exchange. The real threat to the world was probably from the West, as it was generally more ignorant and consequently gung-ho about nuclear war. The conscript Russian military would have almost certainly disregarded any first strike order.
It was some US military advisors who thought that a nuclear war was winable. As I understand it the USSR thought that it was suicide. It was this kind of thinking that lead to the USA bring the world to the edge in the Cuban Missile Crisis and luckily led to the USSR backing down. Who were the good guys when the one we are told it was was ready to blow us all up on what was not much more than a point of principal when all is said and done. When misslie can cross half the world it makes no difference where they launch from.

Well, today the best protection against terror attacks is allegedly duct tape. I guess it's marginally more effective than putting your head under the desk. Nothing ever changes, does it?

I've seen Falisafe too, and it is a scary film. Did the US and USSR really send bombers to prepare to nuke each other's cities?

That is astonishing and depressing.

The war on terror, if all goes to plan, will go on forever and become more paranoid.

In real life, the system was called Positive Control. US and Soviet bombers routinely spent time on constant patrol at sites in mid-air a few hours outside of the enemy airspace. They stayed there for hours on each shift, waiting for the go code. The idea was that they could not be surprised on the ground by a sneak attack.

Missile systems were on 24 hour alert, ready to launch in a matter of minutes after receiving the go code. Both sides did this.

What I find interesting is that a great deal of so-called "paranoid" statements that were made about the Soviet Union turned out to be true. Many here on the Left were adamant that these things the US was saying about the USSR were false, made up, paranoid, etc., but they turned out to be true.

Some turned out to be false, of course. The bomber gap, the missile gap. But the more "gray area" subjects - how prosperous the USSR actually was, how well they treated their citizens - those turned out to be horrifyingly true.

So, for those who want to believe what they see and hear on Al-Jazeera, will history prove in the end that the Arab spin on things is largely false? And will we find out sooner rather than later?

Not saying that everything the US is saying is true, either. But will they be more true than not (as in the nearly fascist super paranoid past)?

It was some US military advisors who thought that a nuclear war was winable. As I understand it the USSR thought that it was suicide. It was this kind of thinking that lead to the USA bring the world to the edge in the Cuban Missile Crisis and luckily led to the USSR backing down. Who were the good guys when the one we are told it was was ready to blow us all up on what was not much more than a point of principal when all is said and done. When misslie can cross half the world it makes no difference where they launch from.

Hmm.. Khruschev said later that the whole idea of putting missiles in Cuba was his idea. He thought that Kennedy would back down.

Is that the US bringing the world to the brink of war, or is it the USSR moving missiles first... And if the US should back down in a situation like that, should the US just go ahead and surrender completely?

Glad you weren't President.

Neither side was right, I personally think nukes are an insanity and they both brought us to the brink. What difference does it make how far the misslile travels to kill you. In Europe we lived with them on our doorsteps. We were no more, or less, safe than a US citizen. Was it worth destroying the planet over how close the launch site was? No. Was it worth pushing the US to make such a decision just for pride's sake? No.

While I believe we could have destroyed most of Western Civilization at the time, by no means do I believe that everyone on Earth would have died.

Taking the world back to the 19th century, and eliminating Europe, the US, and most of Russia might not have really made for a bad outcome.

Radio active dust clouds spreading over the surface of the planet blocking out the sun. Nuclear winter. Potential ice age. Mass extinctions. Humanity would be very unlikely to survive a nuclear war on that scale and we would have a fairly high chance of taking everything but the cockroaches with us.

Well the US and Russia still maintain nuclear arsenals that can each destroy all human life on the planet many times over. During the Clinton Administration we stopped targeting each other with them.

Who actually won the Cold War is harder to fathom.

If the Us had lost the Cold War, our technologies and factories would have been bundled up and shipped to Communist Countries. Much like they are today.

The Middle Class would have been eliminated and their wealth would have been siphoned off producing one vast underclass. Much like it is today.

Control over media would have been tightened and political dissent discouraged. Much like it is today.

The above is sold by the Republican party as capitalism and patriotism, but if you were appointed political governor of the United States by the Soviet Union, how would you go about changing the USA, if you wanted to avoid a costly revolt.

Ask yourself America, is this really a public forum or just a way for our masters to monitor what we are thinking. I may be a KGB agent who really wants to know how far the "Truth" will actually float with average American now that we have gone into full scale deconstruction of your imperialist economy. :D

I think that the massive reduction in nuclear arsenals seems to have passed you by.

Taken a recent count? It's nowhere near what it used to be.