NationStates Jolt Archive

I just wanted to clear up this point as sevearl people have annoyed me and others by continually claiming that America is somehow a supiror democracy or that everyone around the world aspires to "American democracy". Let me just clear up these myths right away

1) The first recorded democracy of any kind was in the Athenian system in Anchient Greece. This was a form of direct democracy.

http://mars.acnet.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/wc1/lectures/07democracy.html

2) The first Parliament was in Iceland, known then as Althing in 930 AD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Althing

3) The reason that unlike all other nations in the world, the US has not had kings, kaisers, Tsars, Emperors or other absolutist rulers is not because the American system is in anyway supiror, but because it was concieved at the time when Democracy was becoming more widespread in Europe.

4) The American system of democracy was based on the British system, simpley because it was the British who colonised America the most and had the greatest domination over its colonies prior to the war of independence.

It appears to me that in general there is almost something mythical about the concept of democracy. Yes I know that the earliest democracy was that of the Athenian city state, with the electorate being limited to male property owners. I know that the early forms of modern democracy were also extremely limited in their electorate base. Yes, in modern times sufferage has spread, and in most democratic nations everyone over a specified minimum age (usually late teenage) is included in the demos. But does any of this mean that democracy is, inherently better than monarchy, dictatorship, oligarchy, meritocracy (now there is a myth) or any other ...ocracy.
Neo Cannen is upset with the self serving superiority complex of the americans with regard to their democracy, I am upset with the self serving superiority complex of democracy in itself.

I. on the other hand, am NOT upset. Got no real reason to be. :D

It appears to me that in general there is almost something mythical about the concept of democracy. Yes I know that the earliest democracy was that of the Athenian city state, with the electorate being limited to male property owners. I know that the early forms of modern democracy were also extremely limited in their electorate base. Yes, in modern times sufferage has spread, and in most democratic nations everyone over a specified minimum age (usually late teenage) is included in the demos. But does any of this mean that democracy is, inherently better than monarchy, dictatorship, oligarchy, meritocracy (now there is a myth) or any other ...ocracy.
Neo Cannen is upset with the self serving superiority complex of the americans with regard to their democracy, I am upset with the self serving superiority complex of democracy in itself.
It is true that democracy sucks, yet it seems to work better than the other options.

It is true that democracy sucks, yet it seems to work better than the other options.
That was Churchill wasn't it? "Worst form of government, except for all the others"

Technically, the United States of America is not a Democracy - it is very clearly a Republic. Which was still not an original concept. However, the particular form of Republic, involving three tiers of government and three branches of government, may have been an innovation, which would be enough to call anything mimicing that the "American system."

Yes I know that the earliest democracy was that of the Athenian city state, with the electorate being limited to male property owners.

I think you dont understand the Athenian system. The electorate didnt just chose the people in power. They also voted on the legislation. IE it was just people who were in the legislature deciding what should go through. Every citizen had the right to attend the assembly. It was direct democracy, arguably the best sort.

Technically, the United States of America is not a Democracy - it is very clearly a Republic. Which was still not an original concept. However, the particular form of Republic, involving three tiers of government and three branches of government, may have been an innovation, which would be enough to call anything mimicing that the "American system."

The British system has three tiers and branches of government, and was around before the American system. I think its fair to call your system British if thats the case.

Technically, the United States of America is not a Democracy - it is very clearly a Republic.

Oh, I get so tired of hearing this. The US is a democratic republic. There is nothing in the concept of a "republic" that makes it less of a democracy. No, you do not have a direct democracy like, say, the REPUBLIC of Switzerland, but you have a representative democracy like, say, the REPUBLIC of Germany.

However, the particular form of Republic, involving three tiers of government and three branches of government, may have been an innovation, which would be enough to call anything mimicing that the "American system."

Nope, nothing specially American about it. It is based on the ideas of Charles de Secondat, Baron de la Brède et de Montesquieu. (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/montesquieu/)

Actually, the Native Americans (though techinically they were aboriginal...) might have had the first democratic form of government. There were federations and democracies in America long before the Europeans came, and we have no idea how long that had been going on. It has been guessed to have been at least 3 millenia.

Actually, "American Democracy" is orginially Scottish from when the Calvinist Churches were forming. The Congregations would vote directly and those ideas spread to England and on to America.

Other Democracies were all over the place.

I think you dont understand the Athenian system. The electorate didnt just chose the people in power. They also voted on the legislation. IE it was just people who were in the legislature deciding what should go through. Every citizen had the right to attend the assembly. It was direct democracy, arguably the best sort.

Yes, but who was allowed to be a citizen?
Far from being "democratic" really.
I guess if you weren't a citizen you couldn't really say you were part of the demos huh.

Our idea of democracy did spring from Ancient Athens though, that I will agree with. But you have to be critical with regard to how well the achieved democracy.


Apart from that, democracy is a lovely utopian myth. Sure we can tend toward democracy but there is nowhere and never will be true democracy. It's simply impossible.

Well, I already knew that.

Our idea of democracy did spring from Ancient Athens though, that I will agree with. But you have to be critical with regard to how well the achieved democracy.

They achieved pretty much perfect democracy on their own terms: what it seems that you haven't picked up on is that their definition of 'the people' is different to ours.

It is true that democracy sucks, yet it seems to work better than the other options.
I guess that's it then. There are worse things in this world, so we shouldn't try to make things any better. Pack it up-anything that is still wrong can be ignored now, there are things worse somewhere else where we don't live so even suggesting that we might be able to fix the things here or at least examine them is silly, if not treasonous.

Forget all of that adjustability built into our government-the real genuis of the founding fathers being that they realized that they might not have gotten everything right so they made the government adaptable-well screw that. There are things that are worse, so we needn't examine it any further.

We wouldn't want Eutrusca to acuse us of being bitter about Kerry's loss, after all....

I guess that's it then. There are worse things in this world, so we shouldn't try to make things any better. Pack it up-anything that is still wrong can be ignored now, there are things worse somewhere else where we don't live so even suggesting that we might be able to fix the things here or at least examine them is silly, if not treasonous.

Forget all of that adjustability built into our government-the real genuis of the founding fathers being that they realized that they might not have gotten everything right so they made the government adaptable-well screw that. There are things that are worse, so we needn't examine it any further.

We wouldn't want Eutrusca to acuse us of being bitter about Kerry's loss, after all....

Ur, are you being sarcastic? If so, I completely concur - just because a system is the best compared with others doesn't make it faultless, or even acceptably functional.

Technically, the United States of America is not a Democracy - it is very clearly a Republic. Which was still not an original concept. However, the particular form of Republic, involving three tiers of government and three branches of government, may have been an innovation, which would be enough to call anything mimicing that the "American system."

The three branches of government were borrowed from the Swiss, who came up with the idea during or shortly after the time of John Calvin.

Technically, the United States of America is not a Democracy - it is very clearly a Republic. Which was still not an original concept. However, the particular form of Republic, involving three tiers of government and three branches of government, may have been an innovation, which would be enough to call anything mimicing that the "American system."

Technically, democracy and republic are not mutually exclusive. The United States is both.

Yes, but who was allowed to be a citizen?
Far from being "democratic" really.
I guess if you weren't a citizen you couldn't really say you were part of the demos huh.


Every male non slave over 18.