NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, I've been recently doing a lot of research on Lesbians and the bible. Some really close friends of mine went from Christians to seaching because the wife had lesbian desires, and that built a conflict of how she could worship a G-d that hated her. She had always been taught that Homosexuality is a sin worth eternal punishment in hell and so she developed a self hating side to herself.

I have never found anything in the bible about Lesbians nor that they are sinners. The closest thing I have found is in Romans where it says something about Women losing natural interests in sex and find un-natural interests, and then it talks about how males will have sex with males. Doesn't really make sense to say it means women having sex with women, cause it would have just said it, like it does about Men loving men.

My arguement is that in ancient times men were allowed more then one wife. and that they were to be satisfied and they were to satisfiy you. Wouldn't it stand for reason that the husband would enjoy his wives together?

Another point is that guys are turned on by two women lesbians together but on average gals don't get turned on by two guys together. Perhaps built in programming?

If anyone has a verse in any holy book showing that lesbians are sinners, I would like to know about it.

duh god hates gays, i saw it on a church sign

*quikly writes Holy Scripture*
And he saw hot women making out with eachother. And he felt it was GOOOoood......

duh god hates gays, i saw it on a church sign
-=mindless banter slap slap=-

Being a lesbian doesn't make you anymore of a sinner then anyone else. But having lesbian sex is a sin apparently

Its alla crock of shit imo

Only if they're not videotaping.

I say that apparently it is, if the translations I've seen are right. Of course, they are most likely a bit skewed, but I dunno...

I don't really care either way though.

Are they hot? :)

just kidding. I don't know, but I think it's just a matter of opinion really. That's pretty much what everything comes down to if you think about it.

are lesbian sinners?

only if they do it right!

I say that apparently it is, if the translations I've seen are right. Of course, they are most likely a bit skewed, but I dunno...

I don't really care either way though.


what translations, and where? I'm trying to find out more on this subject.

I think the questiom here is:

Are they hot lesbians?

I'm not sure where it's written, but I think it went something like:

And you shall take thy camcorder unto thee, and tapeth the hot lesbians. Then all men shall watch of it and be glad.

Are they hot? :)

just kidding. I don't know, but I think it's just a matter of opinion really. That's pretty much what everything comes down to if you think about it.

that is very true, religion comes down to points of view and interpretations. I've often found myself standing outside the circle when it comes to what the church says and what I believe. I guess the only true way of finding out is by dying.

The bible isn't really specific on this matter and most of the Old Testiment Hebrew law was invalidadated by Jesus' sacrifice, according to Christion doctrine.
I'll go with if it isn't explicitedly prohibited then it isn't prohibited at all. As for God hating gays. I'd be suprised if the almighty were capible of that emotion.

on the threeveth day god made teh hot lesbians and saw that it was good

what translations, and where? I'm trying to find out more on this subject.
I dunno. Some people I've talked to have told me that the bible says they are and provided examples that seemed to say that. But I'd need to find which verses they were again, and go figure out if they actually *did* say that, and *then* get the original text and somebody who knows whatever odd language it's in...

I dunno. Some people I've talked to have told me that the bible says they are and provided examples that seemed to say that. But I'd need to find which verses they were again, and go figure out if they actually *did* say that, and *then* get the original text and somebody who knows whatever odd language it's in...

I've been searching a lot, and google doesn't give very good searching, since you'll find a lot of sites made by lesbians and gays and such, that argue that its not a sin, but no one ever mentions any verses.

I'm betting its more doctrine then anything else. One church I went to came to my mother and lectured her because at my brothers wedding they had champaigne, and the bible is obviously against drinking *rolls eyes* I didn't like that church anyways.

Well, I heard Jerry Falwell say that AIDS was god's punishment of homosexual men and, since lesbians are probably the least likely group to contract AIDS (even less likely than born again Christians) since there is little-to-no exchange of body fluids, then by extension lesbians must be god's chosen people.

Well, I heard Jerry Falwell say that AIDS was god's punishment of homosexual men and, since lesbians are probably the least likely group to contract AIDS (even less likely than born again Christians) since there is little-to-no exchange of body fluids, then by extension lesbians must be god's chosen people.

Jerry Falwell is of the Synagoge of Satan. He says he is Christian, and claims to teach Christian Values, but is nothing more then an adversary to all. I'm sure he would claim I am going to burn in hell just for thinking of this thread.

how can lesbian sex NOT be a sin?

isnt ALL sex that occurs outside the bonds of holy matrimony a sin?

The Bible is abundantly clear -- We all are sinners, whether saved or not.

For those who are saved, we have no right to boast or to condemn.

how can lesbian sex NOT be a sin?

isnt ALL sex that occurs outside the bonds of holy matrimony a sin?

Well perhaps it's not biblically speaking. The Bible says that male masturbation is a sin, but I can't remember anything about female masturbation. A lesbian relationship could be considered as mutual masturbation.

Perhaps it has to do with the high regard the ancients had for a man's seed. They literally thought a man's semen was "Seed" and a woman was just the only "Fertile Ground" that "Seed" would grow in. In sexual reproduction and society in general women had the status of dirt.

Well perhaps it's not biblically speaking. The Bible says that male masturbation is a sin, but I can't remember anything about female masturbation. A lesbian relationship could be considered as mutual masturbation.

Perhaps it has to do with the high regard the ancients had for a man's seed. They literally thought a man's semen was "Seed" and a woman was just the only "Fertile Ground" that "Seed" would grow in. In sexual reproduction and society in general women had the status of dirt.


you bring up interesting points, but lacking in the verse department. I've found where if a man touches his urine or sperm then he is unclean, but that doesn't mean its a sin, it just means he has to cleanse himself.

I think most of the sexual sin side of things comes from the Roman Catholic reign where they would shape things into their doctrine. There were more books of the bible at one point, but they tossed them out. Now its taboo to add books, even though the OT isn't one religous book, but many over the course of time, I feel that much is missed with the losing of other christian views from the period.

The Bible is abundantly clear -- We all are sinners, whether saved or not.

For those who are saved, we have no right to boast or to condemn.


I'm not trying to boast or condemn, I'm just trying to help find answers for my friend. As well as find answers for myself and others.

Well perhaps it's not biblically speaking. The Bible says that male masturbation is a sin, but I can't remember anything about female masturbation. A lesbian relationship could be considered as mutual masturbation.

Perhaps it has to do with the high regard the ancients had for a man's seed. They literally thought a man's semen was "Seed" and a woman was just the only "Fertile Ground" that "Seed" would grow in. In sexual reproduction and society in general women had the status of dirt.

i suppose youre right. especially considering that until 1975 most men didnt think that 2 women could HAVE sex. you know the old question " but what do they DO?"

thankfully the porn industry has answered that question to most men's utter satisfaction.

however, now that it IS understood that 2 women can have sex, doesnt it HAVE to be a sin?

IMHO Lesbians are sinners, just like everyone else. God loves them, just like everyone else. God wants you to love them too, just like he wants you to love everyone else. I don't know where so called 'Christians' (Like the "Family First" political party in Australia, some of who's party workers advocate that all lesbians are witches and should be burnt alive) get the idea that Jesus hates people. Jesus loves everyone, he wants us to try and do the same. This is why he eats with the tax collectors and prostitutes rather than 'hollier' or 'cleaner' Rabbis. Same sex sex may be a sin, but the magnificance of God is that he loves you anyway and will forgive you.

Feel the love people! :D :fluffle: :D

I've been searching a lot, and google doesn't give very good searching, since you'll find a lot of sites made by lesbians and gays and such, that argue that its not a sin, but no one ever mentions any verses.

I'm betting its more doctrine then anything else. One church I went to came to my mother and lectured her because at my brothers wedding they had champaigne, and the bible is obviously against drinking *rolls eyes* I didn't like that church anyways.

If drinking is a sin, then why did Jesus turn water into wine? Why did he drink wine himself, like at the last supper? And mostly, does this make holy communion sinful?

If drinking is a sin, then why did Jesus turn water into wine? Why did he drink wine himself, like at the last supper? And mostly, does this make holy communion sinful?
to quote the pastor of that church

It wasn't alcholic wine, it was pure and blessed.

they also used grape juice instead of wine.

Same sex sex may be a sin...

Yes, because we all know that the most important lesson the Bible teaches is that humanity was created by god to see if we could figure out how to properly use our genitals. The unrepentant incorrect use of genitals negates all existence and condemns one to eternal suffering.

God is mainly concerned with our genitals.

If drinking is a sin, then why did Jesus turn water into wine? Why did he drink wine himself, like at the last supper? And mostly, does this make holy communion sinful?

Your basic assumption is faulty. "Drinking" clearly is not a sin, per se. Now, flesh out what you mean by "drinking" and we might have a discussion.

My opinion is that MY witness for Christ is negatively affected by MY consuming alcoholic beverages. Now, when I drank booze, I drank in excess (ie: if I didn't end up hugging the toilet, it wasn't a good night.)

If a Christian is drinking to such an extent that he/she is "tipsy", I don't see how that person can effectively witness for Christ.

to quote the pastor of that church

It wasn't alcholic wine, it was pure and blessed.

they also used grape juice instead of wine.

There is nothing to substantiate that except your own desire that it be true. The alcoholic content was lower than modern wines, but it was alcoholic.

Your basic assumption is faulty. "Drinking" clearly is not a sin, per se. Now, flesh out what you mean by "drinking" and we might have a discussion.

My opinion is that MY witness for Christ is negatively affected by MY consuming alcoholic beverages. Now, when I drank booze, I drank in excess (ie: if I didn't end up hugging the toilet, it wasn't a good night.)

If a Christian is drinking to such an extent that he/she is "tipsy", I don't see how that person can effectively witness for Christ.


Drunkedness is the sin, OT and NT. It says its a sin because we lose control of one's self.

i suppose youre right. especially considering that until 1975 most men didnt think that 2 women could HAVE sex. you know the old question " but what do they DO?"

thankfully the porn industry has answered that question to most men's utter satisfaction.

however, now that it IS understood that 2 women can have sex, doesnt it HAVE to be a sin?\


Well yes we know it as sex and our secular society defines it as sex. Our secular society does not have the ability to define sin only to make laws. Currently being a lesbian is mostly legal.

Seeing a lesbian romp the ancients biblical sages might have thought, "Oh look those two fields are embracing". What is sin for most religions is a biblical issue and women might not have had the status for homosexuality to be considered a sin.

*Sigh* I have a better poll. How about "Are Christians Sinners?" Read Leviticus. There's entire chapters that say yes, they are. Or you could just say I Don't Give A Damn About Christian Ideologies and come hang out with Budda. More spiritual fulfillment, none of the guilt.

The Bible sucks more then lesbians ever have.

Lick, slurp, lick, slurp.
What was the question again?

Truthfully? who cares, the bible has been retranslated, and changed so many times through history, that if by ne chance it is true, we r all going to hell neways.... who can truly follow the bible step by step? no one, cause the whole bible is not in the translations we possess.

*Sigh* I have a better poll. How about "Are Christians Sinners?" Read Leviticus. There's entire chapters that say yes, they are. Or you could just say I Don't Give A Damn About Christian Ideologies and come hang out with Budda. More spiritual fulfillment, none of the guilt.

I thank you for your observations on the bible, though I don't see how your comments do anything more then waste space and time.

Lick, slurp, lick, slurp.
What was the question again?


very intelligent comment, tell me, did you graduate the 4th grade before making that post?

The Bible sucks more then lesbians ever have.

well, thank you for your comment, though I must say, not needed, not asked for, and lacking any real reason to be. If you don't care for the bible, make an intelligent statement and at least show you have reasons and understandings, not just prejudice.

Truthfully? who cares, the bible has been retranslated, and changed so many times through history, that if by ne chance it is true, we r all going to hell neways.... who can truly follow the bible step by step? no one, cause the whole bible is not in the translations we possess.


Yes, it has been retranslated many many times, though I don't think even when it was written that it was meant to be followed step by step. Too much logic for faith to work.

The OT has survived pretty well though, mainly because the Jewish faith is still around. They have changed here and there, but nothing major, and you still have Strict sects of Jewish faiths too.

http://www.phatpage.org/outarguefundamentalist.html

The bible doesn't condemn homosexuality.

http://www.phatpage.org/outarguefundamentalist.html

The bible doesn't condemn homosexuality.


Well, I don't buy that website.

It says since it doesn't mention lesbians in the frames that it talks about male homosexulity, then its obviously false. Seems like a rather long reach.

I would say its obvious that male on male is frowned upon, but its not the only spot its mentioned, and if it was a homophobic addition, then it would mention lesbians too. Just doesn't make sence.

As a theological concept (deliberate disobedience to the known will of god), I don’t believe in sin. As a secular concept (something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly wrong), no consensual sex is a sin as far as I'm concerned.

only if they're not hot.

:)

There are no sinners. Sin is all in your head.To be imperfect (which is what "sin means")is a choice you make, not something you are born with. To the pure everything including lesbians are pure.

As a theological concept (deliberate disobedience to the known will of god), I don’t believe in sin. As a secular concept (something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly wrong), no consensual sex is a sin as far as I'm concerned.

So you don't believe in a main deity, and thusly don't see how you can sin if there is not one main power or you feel there is no diety, so there is no sin.

I can see the secular concept too, though I would have to say underage sex is still wrong due to mental damage that can happen. Consensual sex should be for people that have the understanding to understand their actions.

Stupid question.

Of course they are sinners.

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.

Doesn't matter if their lesbians or not.

There are no sinners. Sin is all in your head.To be imperfect (which is what "sin means")is a choice you make, not something you are born with. To the pure everything including lesbians are pure.

I can see that point, though from a biblical point of view sin is serpation from G-d. Even hell is just seperation from G-d, though I don't like the concept that most christians push for hell, eternal burning punishment, since that doesn't even happen until the very end of all, and its only for those that despite being shown the truth, still despise G-d and still stand against him. It seems everyone that realizes the truth is saved, and that those that rebuke the truth even after seeing it as truth are the ones lost, based on the readings of Revelation.

Stupid question.

Of course they are sinners.

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.

Doesn't matter if their lesbians or not.

So? Just because I may have sinned doesn't make me a sinner. I've washed windows, but I'm not a window washer. I don't define myself by any single action, but rather by the collective existential choices I have made throughout my life.

Stupid question.

Of course they are sinners.

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.

Doesn't matter if their lesbians or not.

But I'm not asking for that, I'm looking to see if its mentioned in the bible as a sin. Though I might point out that you can only sin if you go against the law of G-d, and if you don't have the law anymore, then you can't sin, much like it was in the Gardan of Eden. Jesus said that when you become a christian you are dead to the law, thusly the law holds you no more. Instead he gets rid of it all, and puts it to, Know G-d with all your heart, mind and soul, and have faith in Christ. So yes, all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of G-d, but by grace we are divine.

So you don't believe in a main deity, and thusly don't see how you can sin if there is not one main power or you feel there is no diety, so there is no sin.

I can see the secular concept too, though I would have to say underage sex is still wrong due to mental damage that can happen. Consensual sex should be for people that have the understanding to understand their actions.

The key is the "known will of god" (deliberate disobedience to the known will of god). I do not know if there is a diety or not, and therefore do not know what the will of that diety is.

I agree consensual sex implies the ability to give informed consent.

I can see that point, though from a biblical point of view sin is serpation from G-d. Even hell is just seperation from G-d, though I don't like the concept that most christians push for hell, eternal burning punishment, since that doesn't even happen until the very end of all, and its only for those that despite being shown the truth, still despise G-d and still stand against him. It seems everyone that realizes the truth is saved, and that those that rebuke the truth even after seeing it as truth are the ones lost, based on the readings of Revelation.

How can finite beings, temporal in nature comprehend an eternal truth? Seems unfair to punish them for that. And didn't david say in the Psalms "If you make your bed in Hell , He (Jehovah) is there." Anyway, being is always a good thing, so how could a good God place what He himself called good in a place that is evil?

only if they're not hot.

:)
You forgot Poland.

Lick, slurp, lick, slurp.
What was the question again?
very intelligent comment, tell me, did you graduate the 4th grade before making that post?





I can see that point, though from a biblical point of view sin is serpation from G-d.

Stones, glass houses.

What the bible condemns is lust. The verses usually used to condemn homosexuality, only really condemn lust (except Leviticus, which was translated wrong, and actually has NOTHING to do with homosexuality at all).

So - in those terms, lesbian love must be sinful, because there is lust.

Of course - it is always possible that the Bible doesn't condemn lesbianism explicitly, because they didn't 'believe' in it. Perhaps, lesbian love isn't even considered 'sex' in biblical terms... perhaps, more of an 'aided masturbation'.

And there are no specific condemnations of masturbation - so, perhaps lesbianism is 'okay', in scriptural terms.

Personally - since biblical 'sex laws' were designed to increase numbers of offspring within 'the faith', I would argue that they are largely irrelevent now... so, even if a missing bible book turns up that DID condemn lesbianism, I don't think it would hold much weight now.

Any more than biblical laws about trading slaves have any REAL relevence any more.

We're all sinners, are we not?

Stones, glass houses.

I asked a question based on the appearance of lower intelligence. If you took it as an insult, I am sorry, truely I am. I tend to have a sarcasim in my speech. Think of it this way, if I respond, I have a point to ponder, if I laugh, I found humor in it. If I call names, which is very very rare, its cause it insulted me.

In this case, I merely wish people to think before speaking. Too often these threads get filled mindless banter.

We're all sinners, are we not?
yes, very much so.

yes, very much so.

Not me.