NationStates Jolt Archive

tragedy n 1. an event resulting in great loss and misfortune.

Here's what I don't get: how can anybody who believes in an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God also believe in tragedy? If God is all-powerful then all things that occur are by God's will, and if God is all-good then all things the occur must be Good or else God wouldn't have allowed them to come about. So nothing that occurs can be classified as misfortune, by definition.

The tsunami disaster that hit southeast Asia has been a source of much religious speculation and chitter-chatter, and I just don't get that. If God is Good then the deaths and destruction were all Good, and we should be praising Him for bringing these blessings to us. How come God-believers thank God when He does things they like, but they won't thank him for this tsunami just because it wasn't what they personally wanted for Christmas? Isn't that awfully selfish, to only thank God for the blessings we like but to ignore all the other blessings He sends us (such as the tsunami)?

tragedy n 1. an event resulting in great loss and misfortune.

Here's what I don't get: how can anybody who believes in an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God also believe in tragedy? If God is all-powerful then all things that occur are by God's will, and if God is all-good then all things the occur must be Good or else God wouldn't have allowed them to come about. So nothing that occurs can be classified as misfortune, by definition.

The tsunami disaster that hit southeast Asia has been a source of much religious speculation and chitter-chatter, and I just don't get that. If God is Good then the deaths and destruction were all Good, and we should be praising Him for bringing these blessings to us. How come God-believers thank God when He does things they like, but they won't thank him for this tsunami just because it wasn't what they personally wanted for Christmas? Isn't that awfully selfish, to only thank God for the blessings we like but to ignore all the other blessings He sends us (such as the tsunami)?

Good point … there is a lot of problems with the omnipresent and omnipotent god out there (either combinations of the two or individual “syn” with reality

But those were heathens, everyone knows that God doesn't care about heathens. Just ask Tom DeLay.

But those were heathens, everyone knows that God doesn't care about heathens. Just ask Tom DeLay.


Or the Almighty Jack Chick.

But those were heathens, everyone knows that God doesn't care about heathens. Just ask Tom DeLay.

Yeah, that's why God offed those people on Sunday, on Christmas Day.

Even Rusch Limbaugh had something to say about it that essentially boiled down to "screw you" and "fuck off."

tragedy n 1. an event resulting in great loss and misfortune.

Here's what I don't get: how can anybody who believes in an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God also believe in tragedy? If God is all-powerful then all things that occur are by God's will, and if God is all-good then all things the occur must be Good or else God wouldn't have allowed them to come about. So nothing that occurs can be classified as misfortune, by definition.

The tsunami disaster that hit southeast Asia has been a source of much religious speculation and chitter-chatter, and I just don't get that. If God is Good then the deaths and destruction were all Good, and we should be praising Him for bringing these blessings to us. How come God-believers thank God when He does things they like, but they won't thank him for this tsunami just because it wasn't what they personally wanted for Christmas? Isn't that awfully selfish, to only thank God for the blessings we like but to ignore all the other blessings He sends us (such as the tsunami)?

Ah yes. The old "God vs Suffering" arguement. See here

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/gr5part1.html

And also here (Although in this one, skip down to where it says in big, bold, Times New Roman letters "At a surface level, I can identify three items for exploration:" because most of the stuff before that is unessecary and confusing)

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/natevl.html

tragedy n 1. an event resulting in great loss and misfortune.

Here's what I don't get: how can anybody who believes in an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God also believe in tragedy? If God is all-powerful then all things that occur are by God's will, and if God is all-good then all things the occur must be Good or else God wouldn't have allowed them to come about. So nothing that occurs can be classified as misfortune, by definition.

The tsunami disaster that hit southeast Asia has been a source of much religious speculation and chitter-chatter, and I just don't get that. If God is Good then the deaths and destruction were all Good, and we should be praising Him for bringing these blessings to us. How come God-believers thank God when He does things they like, but they won't thank him for this tsunami just because it wasn't what they personally wanted for Christmas? Isn't that awfully selfish, to only thank God for the blessings we like but to ignore all the other blessings He sends us (such as the tsunami)?

It is sad to me that so many died. I don't for a moment think that God caused this, but in some respect you are right that He didn't stop it. Let me take you through the subject from a Biblical perspective and see if it makes sense to you. I don't really want to argue with anyone about it, but I am willing to answer questions. Not the statements are not the texts themselves or even paraphrases as much as that the text is a statement of the same truth I mention, if you want to read them please feel free to look them up. Also, this is largely from a sermon by Dwight K. Nelson that can be found at www.pmchurch.tv under the title "In the Wake of the Tsunamis..."

The only real explanation is that there is a Great Controversy, between God and Lucifer being played out here on earth.

The universe has always ben ruled by God who is both Loving and Just. (1 John 48)

At sometime in the past Lucifer, one of the archangles attempted to usurp the throne and authority of God and started a rebellion. (Isaiah 14:12-14)

As a result there was war in heaven the leader and his followers were cast out. (Revelation 12:7-9)

He seduced Adam and Eve into joining his rebelion thus drawing our world under his dominion. (Genisis 3)

Human history is the story of this just and loving God doing everything in His power to woo us back to Himself while not forcing us to do so against our wishes. (Jeremiah 29:11-13)

Through out earth's history the rebel leader (Lucifer) has reigned here on earth and the human race has suffered under his dominion. (Matthew 13:24-29)

God intervened in human history by liking Himself to humanity for all of eterenity in send Christ, who was God, to take the penalty for our rebelion. (John 1:1-14 & 3:16)

Just as predicted in Genisis 3, Christ, the Messiah attacted and killed by the Serpent who is the author of death. (John 8:44)

Through Christ's death God triumphed over the rebelous leader and declared all of us "by default rebels" pardoned and free to come home to Him. (Colossians 2:14,15 and Romans 5:8-10)

Still for 2000 more years the great controversy has been raging even though its outcome is certain because God desires to save as many as will choose Him. (Joshua 24:15, 1 Kings 18:21)

Through it all the God who suffered in our place, still suffers with us in all of the pain and destruction caused by God's and our enemy while he waits for the final eradication of evil. (Isaiah 63:9, Revelation 21:1-4 and John 14:1-3)

Because He is not willing that any should perish, it appears, at least to us that His return has been delayed. (2 Peter 3:9 and Matthew 25:5)

He waits for as many as possible to be saved and a group of His children to be sanctified, made like Him to take His message and reveal His true, loving, just character to the world. (1 John 2:6, 1 Peter 2:21, Revelation 18:1 and Romans 9:28)

When that happens He will return as He promised to claim the final victory. (Matthew 24:14 and Romans 8:31-39)

However, before the end, in order to warn the inhabitants of earth that His final judgment is underway and that the return of Christ is imminent, He gradually releases the forces of entropy that would already be destroying this world, that He as been holding at bay for as long as possible, with the desperate hope that the escalating destruction and dysfunction might possibly awake earth's inhabitants, the people He longs to save, that this planet will eventually be destroyed. (Revelation 7:1-4 and 14:6-12)

It is an act of Parental desperation, a final effort to save as many as possible, because he doesn't want them to suffer eternal destruction. (Ezekiel 33:11)

He weeps with us over the loss of 155,000+, but is faced with the potentail loss of over 6 billion if we don't turn to Him. If you think about it, He has to attend over 170,000(approx. daily #of deaths in the world) funerals every day and is more heart broken over the suffering than even we are. How can He let it go on forever. He can't. Eventually, He has to bring it all to an end and allow those whose chose rebellion, who refuse to accept His gift of life to perish with this world at its destruction, so that evil, death, suffering, sin will never appear again.

tragedy n 1. an event resulting in great loss and misfortune.

Here's what I don't get: how can anybody who believes in an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God also believe in tragedy? If God is all-powerful then all things that occur are by God's will, and if God is all-good then all things the occur must be Good or else God wouldn't have allowed them to come about. So nothing that occurs can be classified as misfortune, by definition.

The tsunami disaster that hit southeast Asia has been a source of much religious speculation and chitter-chatter, and I just don't get that. If God is Good then the deaths and destruction were all Good, and we should be praising Him for bringing these blessings to us. How come God-believers thank God when He does things they like, but they won't thank him for this tsunami just because it wasn't what they personally wanted for Christmas? Isn't that awfully selfish, to only thank God for the blessings we like but to ignore all the other blessings He sends us (such as the tsunami)?

This depends if you follow the ripple arguement. Bad thing don't happen because God is a spiteful bastard, but because the consequences will lead to something beneficial for the human race.

I don't really buy it though.

This depends if you follow the ripple arguement. Bad thing don't happen because God is a spiteful bastard, but because the consequences will lead to something beneficial for the human race.

I don't really buy it though.

There is another option. There is an evil power that is destroying, causing mahem, pain, death and suffering and that God doesn't intervene because He has allowed us free choice instead of making us automotons.

This depends if you follow the ripple arguement. Bad thing don't happen because God is a spiteful bastard, but because the consequences will lead to something beneficial for the human race.

I don't really buy it though.

I do. I've never heard it called "the ripple argument' before, however.

There is another option. There is an evil power that is destroying, causing mahem, pain, death and suffering and that God doesn't intervene because He has allowed us free choice instead of making us automotons.

DEMIURGE

Isn't a demiurge (strictly speaking from a Catholic perspective), the same as the Architect in the Matrix trilogy?

DEMIURGE

Not a deity. A created being rebelious to the peace, harmony, love, justice and purity of God. A highly powerful one mind you, but one that will soon meet his end, thankfully.

Isn't a demiurge (strictly speaking from a Catholic perspective), the same as the Architect in the Matrix trilogy?

The Demiurge I am speaking of is an Aristotelian chaotic force. There was a God of order (I don't remember the name of that) and the God of Chaos, Demiurge.

Edit: But I am not very knowledgeble on it and could be mostly wrong.

Strictly speaking from a Catholic church perspective, the Demiurge is not the Creator, but is certainly the Architect.

The Demiurge I am speaking of is an Aristotelian chaotic force. There was a God of order (I don't remember the name of that) and the God of Chaos, Demiurge.

Edit: But I am not very knowledgeble on it and could be mostly wrong.

Strictly speaking from a Catholic church perspective, the Demiurge is not the Creator, but is certainly the Architect.

In either case, not the being I was referring to.

Ah yes. The old "God vs Suffering" arguement. See here

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/gr5part1.html

And also here (Although in this one, skip down to where it says in big, bold, Times New Roman letters "At a surface level, I can identify three items for exploration:" because most of the stuff before that is unessecary and confusing)

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/natevl.html

As usual Neo you give links to sites full of double speak and that are so hard to read coherantly they leave a person willing death on themselves.

Why is it that Christians always have to give their excuses for his non-performance on the benevolant side of his nature?
It's a simple question that deserves a simple answer; If God is good why does he let so much shitty things happen to INNOCENT lives?

It is sad to me that so many died. I don't for a moment think that God caused this, but in some respect you are right that He didn't stop it. Let me take you through the subject from a Biblical perspective and see if it makes sense to you. I don't really want to argue with anyone about it, but I am willing to answer questions. Not the statements are not the texts themselves or even paraphrases as much as that the text is a statement of the same truth I mention, if you want to read them please feel free to look them up. Also, this is largely from a sermon by Dwight K. Nelson that can be found at www.pmchurch.tv under the title "In the Wake of the Tsunamis..."

The only real explanation is that there is a Great Controversy, between God and Lucifer being played out here on earth.

The universe has always ben ruled by God who is both Loving and Just. (1 John 48)

At sometime in the past Lucifer, one of the archangles attempted to usurp the throne and authority of God and started a rebellion. (Isaiah 14:12-14)

As a result there was war in heaven the leader and his followers were cast out. (Revelation 12:7-9)

He seduced Adam and Eve into joining his rebelion thus drawing our world under his dominion. (Genisis 3)

Human history is the story of this just and loving God doing everything in His power to woo us back to Himself while not forcing us to do so against our wishes. (Jeremiah 29:11-13)

Through out earth's history the rebel leader (Lucifer) has reigned here on earth and the human race has suffered under his dominion. (Matthew 13:24-29)

God intervened in human history by liking Himself to humanity for all of eterenity in send Christ, who was God, to take the penalty for our rebelion. (John 1:1-14 & 3:16)

Just as predicted in Genisis 3, Christ, the Messiah attacted and killed by the Serpent who is the author of death. (John 8:44)

Through Christ's death God triumphed over the rebelous leader and declared all of us "by default rebels" pardoned and free to come home to Him. (Colossians 2:14,15 and Romans 5:8-10)

Still for 2000 more years the great controversy has been raging even though its outcome is certain because God desires to save as many as will choose Him. (Joshua 24:15, 1 Kings 18:21)

Through it all the God who suffered in our place, still suffers with us in all of the pain and destruction caused by God's and our enemy while he waits for the final eradication of evil. (Isaiah 63:9, Revelation 21:1-4 and John 14:1-3)

Because He is not willing that any should perish, it appears, at least to us that His return has been delayed. (2 Peter 3:9 and Matthew 25:5)

He waits for as many as possible to be saved and a group of His children to be sanctified, made like Him to take His message and reveal His true, loving, just character to the world. (1 John 2:6, 1 Peter 2:21, Revelation 18:1 and Romans 9:28)

When that happens He will return as He promised to claim the final victory. (Matthew 24:14 and Romans 8:31-39)

However, before the end, in order to warn the inhabitants of earth that His final judgment is underway and that the return of Christ is imminent, He gradually releases the forces of entropy that would already be destroying this world, that He as been holding at bay for as long as possible, with the desperate hope that the escalating destruction and dysfunction might possibly awake earth's inhabitants, the people He longs to save, that this planet will eventually be destroyed. (Revelation 7:1-4 and 14:6-12)

It is an act of Parental desperation, a final effort to save as many as possible, because he doesn't want them to suffer eternal destruction. (Ezekiel 33:11)

He weeps with us over the loss of 155,000+, but is faced with the potentail loss of over 6 billion if we don't turn to Him. If you think about it, He has to attend over 170,000(approx. daily #of deaths in the world) funerals every day and is more heart broken over the suffering than even we are. How can He let it go on forever. He can't. Eventually, He has to bring it all to an end and allow those whose chose rebellion, who refuse to accept His gift of life to perish with this world at its destruction, so that evil, death, suffering, sin will never appear again.


One question ... how do you put forth a semi sucessfull rebelion against someone who is both omnipotant and omnipresent ?

One question ... how do you put forth a semi sucessfull rebelion against someone who is both omnipotant and omnipresent ?

Because God won't lie or force His perspective on any, and Lucifer's deception was good enough to fool some of those who live in the very presence of God. As a result, short of ruling from fear or making automoton out of us all, He had to allow the universe and us to see the results of living apart from the only perfect way of life.

He weeps with us over the loss of 155,000+, but is faced with the potentail loss of over 6 billion if we don't turn to Him. If you think about it, He has to attend over 170,000(approx. daily #of deaths in the world) funerals every day and is more heart broken over the suffering than even we are. How can He let it go on forever. He can't. Eventually, He has to bring it all to an end and allow those whose chose rebellion, who refuse to accept His gift of life to perish with this world at its destruction, so that evil, death, suffering, sin will never appear again.

And everyone who died in the tsunami tragedy were rebels?

Because God won't lie or force His perspective on any, and Lucifer's deception was good enough to fool some of those who live in the very presence of God. As a result, short of ruling from fear or making automoton out of us all, He had to allow the universe and us to see the results of living apart from the only perfect way of life.
But if he cant force his perspectives on us he could have at least gave us more info … if he truly created us in his image we would have at least understood logic rather then eating the apple (unless that was not the specific Adam and eve instance you meant)

And everyone who died in the tsunami tragedy were rebels?

As Neo Cannon stated in his recent thread...

"All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God." So yes. There may have been many "saved" rebels in the group, but we have all rebelled.

As Neo Cannon stated in his recent thread...

"All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God." So yes. There may have been many "saved" rebels in the group, but we have all rebelled.
Ok let me get this strait we are all sinners because we are not god? (or of the same “glory” ?)

As Neo Cannon stated in his recent thread...

"All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God." So yes. There may have been many "saved" rebels in the group, but we have all rebelled.


So what you are saying is that your god can snuff us all out in one go regardless of how "blameless" a life you have led? We are not God so our lives are meaningless?

I think I am a better person than God, I have never intentionally hurt (physically or mentally) anyone.

I do. I've never heard it called "the ripple argument' before, however.
Well I was kinda pissed when it was explained to me. Which expalins my lack of clarity on the subject

Strictly speaking from a Catholic church perspective, the Demiurge is not the Creator, but is certainly the Architect.
Catholic Encyclopedia: Demiurge (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04707b.htm)

Years ago, a priest from our Church was killed by the driver of a stolen car, while being pursued by the police. The priest's car was stranded, he was waiting for his son to arrive after placing a phone call home for help. The accident made headline news here in Toronto.

My father was stunned by this man's death, and then stunned me with the summation that this was God's will, and that God had a better plan for this man. My instant reply was what kind of God would take a man of the cloth by hitting him with a car travelling at a high rate of speed, wouldn't he save that horrific death for a child molestor? (I know the comparison is ironic, but I'm not making any insinuations - it just came out that way) Why not just take the man peacefully in his sleep?

Like the tsunami victims, this priest was in the wrong place at the wrong time. However, if people want to take this discussion on the tsunami to a higher plane, and I don't believed in a higher plane, then IMHO I would look at the guy with the pointy tail and the pitch fork.

Just like darkness is an absence of light, evil happens in the absence of good.

Yeah, whatever. Sh*t just happens according to Forrest Gump.

But if he cant force his perspectives on us he could have at least gave us more info … if he truly created us in his image we would have at least understood logic rather then eating the apple (unless that was not the specific Adam and eve instance you meant)

IMO, He has given us plenty, see Luke 16:27-31. The problem is that we have to chose to follow the light that we have, and Lucifer is deceptive and the only way that we won't get entangled in his deceptions is if we learn to distrust ourselves and depend on God and trust in His revelation of Himself to us.

Not always easy, I know.

So what you are saying is that your god can snuff us all out in one go regardless of how "blameless" a life you have led? We are not God so our lives are meaningless?

I think I am a better person than God, I have never intentionally hurt (physically or mentally) anyone.

Not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that none of us is blameless, that the world, not God, will destroy itself and that if you want not to be destroyed with it, all you have to do is choose to accept God's gift of love.

tragedy n 1. an event resulting in great loss and misfortune.

Here's what I don't get: how can anybody who believes in an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God also believe in tragedy? If God is all-powerful then all things that occur are by God's will, and if God is all-good then all things the occur must be Good or else God wouldn't have allowed them to come about. So nothing that occurs can be classified as misfortune, by definition.

The tsunami disaster that hit southeast Asia has been a source of much religious speculation and chitter-chatter, and I just don't get that. If God is Good then the deaths and destruction were all Good, and we should be praising Him for bringing these blessings to us. How come God-believers thank God when He does things they like, but they won't thank him for this tsunami just because it wasn't what they personally wanted for Christmas? Isn't that awfully selfish, to only thank God for the blessings we like but to ignore all the other blessings He sends us (such as the tsunami)?

I posted this in a similiar thread. I think ideally that followers of what ever Prophet do thank God for the "good and bad" in our lives. I believe that is a common teaching in many religions including American Indian teachings. Understand, of course, that just because one says he/she believes doesn't mean they have arrived in the port. The ship may have set sail, but the journey is just begun. Too lose your family, home, belongings in the flash of a moment and not expect some out pouring of grief and sorrow is seting some pretty high standards for your fellow human beings.

Ok, I'll bite.
This thread was hit pretty hard shortly after the event first happened. It just seems to me if you don't believe in God you can't blame him for not having your sense of what goodness or justice is or isn't. Why aren't you blaming evolution for what happened? Why don't you say there is no goodness in evolution? Because you realise that evolution is a process that follows certain laws. You don't ask evolution to step in and temporarily violate the laws of science.

If you believe in God then you accept that the Creator also created the laws of science. Hopefully you understand there is some wisdom in the events that place. You may not understand the reason, but faith steps in and you accept, with a heavy heart, but you accept. I don't have a answer for everything bad thing that happens, but scientists don't have answers for all of the mysteries of life.

If we can find any silver lining in this terrible tragedy it is that we as a world are being forced to work together, to a least temporarily set aside our differences and recognize that we are one human family, and it is imperative that we forget our religious, political, ethnic differences and work for the common good.

Ok let me get this strait we are all sinners because we are not god? (or of the same “glory” ?)

Getting closer. We are all sinners because in some way or another we have all chosen to follow self or someone other than God at some point in our lives. The only way to life is to follow the source of life. The actual word for "Glory" in that text is more accurately translated "beautiful purity" or holiness.

If God is good why does he let so much shitty things happen to INNOCENT lives?

What innocent lives?

Romans 3: 23

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God

If that doesnt suit you, then would you care to elaborate on your definition of innoncence

Years ago, a priest from our Church was killed by the driver of a stolen car, while being pursued by the police. The priest's car was stranded, he was waiting for his son to arrive after placing a phone call home for help. The accident made headline news here in Toronto.

My father was stunned by this man's death, and then stunned me with the summation that this was God's will, and that God had a better plan for this man. My instant reply was what kind of God would take a man of the cloth by hitting him with a car travelling at a high rate of speed, wouldn't he save that horrific death for a child molestor? (I know the comparison is ironic, but I'm not making any insinuations - it just came out that way) Why not just take the man peacefully in his sleep?

Like the tsunami victims, this priest was in the wrong place at the wrong time. However, if people want to take this discussion on the tsunami to a higher plane, and I don't believed in a higher plane, then IMHO I would look at the guy with the pointy tail and the pitch fork.

[QUOTE]Just like darkness is an absence of light, evil happens in the absence of good.

It seems to me you answered your own problem here. Some one stole a car. God didn't make him take the car. But in the absence of good--bad things happened.

The simple, straight forward, cop-out answer is "God has a plan." In the end, though, that's basically bullshit, the idea that Gods plan could involve the suffering of many leads logically to the belief that only the self matters, which is kind of contradictory to most philosophies which posit an omnibenevolent diety.

It seems to me you answered your own problem here. Some one stole a car. God didn't make him take the car. But in the absence of good--bad things happened.

You would think that an omnipotent, omnibenevolent being would not allow an absence of good anywhere wouldn't you? If not, then there's no reason to use the word omnibenevolent because inaction is as the same as malaction.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/gr5part1.html

And also here (Although in this one, skip down to where it says in big, bold, Times New Roman letters "At a surface level, I can identify three items for exploration:" because most of the stuff before that is unessecary and confusing)

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/natevl.html

No one could be bothered to read these the first time, and I think honestly that If you cant be bothered to read these then frankly you dont deserve to know the ansewers to your own questions. You asked a question. I answered. The arguement "I cant be bothered to read them" is not valid.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/gr5part1.html

And also here (Although in this one, skip down to where it says in big, bold, Times New Roman letters "At a surface level, I can identify three items for exploration:" because most of the stuff before that is unessecary and confusing)

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/natevl.html

No one could be bothered to read these the first time, and I think honestly that If you cant be bothered to read these then frankly you dont deserve to know the ansewers to your own questions. You asked a question. I answered. The arguement "I cant be bothered to read them" is not valid.

I started reading... and got through a bit, but got fed up, it's just making excuses basically. The whole thing seems to be trying to escape reality based on a variety of invented distinctions to allow technicalities and loop holes.

I started reading... and got through a bit, but got fed up, it's just making excuses basically. The whole thing seems to be trying to escape reality based on a variety of invented distinctions to allow technicalities and loop holes.
And yet we manage to use technicalities and loopholes in their religion(among other things) against them ... hypocracy?

tragedy n 1. an event resulting in great loss and misfortune.

Here's what I don't get: how can anybody who believes in an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God also believe in tragedy? If God is all-powerful then all things that occur are by God's will, and if God is all-good then all things the occur must be Good or else God wouldn't have allowed them to come about. So nothing that occurs can be classified as misfortune, by definition.

The tsunami disaster that hit southeast Asia has been a source of much religious speculation and chitter-chatter, and I just don't get that. If God is Good then the deaths and destruction were all Good, and we should be praising Him for bringing these blessings to us. How come God-believers thank God when He does things they like, but they won't thank him for this tsunami just because it wasn't what they personally wanted for Christmas? Isn't that awfully selfish, to only thank God for the blessings we like but to ignore all the other blessings He sends us (such as the tsunami)?

But explain how one can judge what is right or wrong, good and bad from a self-righteous point of view. "No formalities" Tells me there is no formal way about doing anything in reality. "No labels" tells me that all the names (labels, stereotypes, etc..) that we place upon everyone and everything don't mean a thing. "Seek peace" tells me that God wants peace just as we do. "Stay away from politics" tells me why we have the problems we have today from a human standpoint. The deal with the tsunami is one that only God knows 'why'. The question that remains unanswered in all situations the most is why. Why ask why since there is no universal answer to this question. These are always based upon personal truths. Unless you are a mind reader or the one with the reason 'why', Why can only be answered by God or the individual. Each individuals heart has a answer to our own questions of why with no two the exact same (exempting twins). Our hearts intentions are as random as our faces are.

And yet we manage to use technicalities and loopholes in their religion(among other things) against them ... hypocracy?

I don't know about you, but I avoid winning by technicality as often as possible, though I like to find loop holes and point them out in the hope that people will close them.

But explain how we can judge what is right or wrong, good and bad from a self-righteous point of view. "No formalities" Tells me there is no formal way about doing things in reality. "No labels" tells me that all the names (labels, stereotypes, etc..) that we place upon everyone and everything don't mean a thing. "Seek peace" tells me that God wants peace just as we do. "Stay away from politics" tells me why we have the problems we have today from a human standpoint. The deal with the tsunami is one that only God knows 'why'. The question that remains unanswered in all situations the most is why. Why ask why since there is no universal answer to this question. These are always based upon personal truths. Unless you are a mind reader or the one with the reason 'why', Why can only be answered by God or the individual. Each individuals heart has a answer to our own questions of why with no two the exact same. Our hearts intentions are as random as our faces are.
Assuming there is an omnibenevolent omnipresent omnipotent god there … he himself supposedly set the “right” and “wrong” and among them were “Thou shall not kill” (taking the Christian faith … but about 95 percent of all religions have a variant of such rule supposedly from a higher being)

I don’t proscribe to that and I can see your relativistic morals argument

tragedy n 1. an event resulting in great loss and misfortune.

Here's what I don't get: how can anybody who believes in an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God also believe in tragedy? If God is all-powerful then all things that occur are by God's will, and if God is all-good then all things the occur must be Good or else God wouldn't have allowed them to come about. So nothing that occurs can be classified as misfortune, by definition.

The tsunami disaster that hit southeast Asia has been a source of much religious speculation and chitter-chatter, and I just don't get that. If God is Good then the deaths and destruction were all Good, and we should be praising Him for bringing these blessings to us. How come God-believers thank God when He does things they like, but they won't thank him for this tsunami just because it wasn't what they personally wanted for Christmas? Isn't that awfully selfish, to only thank God for the blessings we like but to ignore all the other blessings He sends us (such as the tsunami)?
Being all-powerful does not equate to using that power.

I don't know about you, but I avoid winning by technicality as often as possible, though I like to find loop holes and point them out in the hope that people will close them.
But can they close loopholes in scripture? was not aware that they could edit that …

As for technicalities most people use them in arguments against religion … wording … word choice really they can all be technicalities when you consider the overall drift that the religion (if people do truly follow it) should be taking (off most of its base teachings)

(though thinking more of arguments about Christianity mostly … it can be applied to other religions as well)

Assuming there is an omnibenevolent omnipresent omnipotent god there … he himself supposedly set the “right” and “wrong” and among them were “Thou shall not kill” (taking the Christian faith … but about 95 percent of all religions have a variant of such rule supposedly from a higher being)

I don’t proscribe to that and I can see your relativistic morals argument

Saying God is a he, labels God with an assumption... The only known true word from God is "God". As in when God states "I am God". I have taken nothing from my experience with God as from the bible, only from what is stated from God. You don't have to read the bible or any other religious context to experience God. You don't have to be 'labeled' a bible thumper or a skateboarder or any other 'label' out there. Meaning you can be anyone and do anything and experience God at anytime in life. God does state "go to church" but no definition of what a church is or what denomination to attend ("No formalities" "No labels"). There are Churches that have virtually "no formalities" and "no labels" just some good ole truths. Especially during their normal services. A church is a time of gathering with friends to thank God for all that has been given to us (life,love,truth and family & friends of our past and present etc.. all the good things in life). God gave a Perfect world to a perfectly imperfect people.

But can they close loopholes in scripture? was not aware that they could edit that …

As for technicalities most people use them in arguments against religion … wording … word choice really they can all be technicalities when you consider the overall drift that the religion (if people do truly follow it) should be taking (off most of its base teachings)

(though thinking more of arguments about Christianity mostly … it can be applied to other religions as well)

Most of the time closing the loop holes in scripture takes the form of reinterpreting the original texts. Since it has been translated many times, and is a heavily interpretation based text, problems in one view can be fixed in another.

Saying God is a he, labels God with an assumption... The only known true word from God is "God". As in when God states "I am God". I have taken nothing from my experience with God as from the bible, only from what is stated from God. You don't have to read the bible or any other religious context to experience God. You don't have to be 'labeled' a bible thumper or a skateboarder or any other 'label' out there. Meaning you can be anyone and do anything and experience God at anytime in life. God does state "go to church" but no definition of what a church is or what denomination to attend ("No formalities" "No labels"). There are Churches that have virtually "no formalities" and "no labels" just some good ole truths. Especially during their normal services. A church is a time of gathering with friends to thank God for all that has been given to us (life,love,truth and family & friends of our past and present etc.. all the good things in life). God gave a Perfect world to a perfectly imperfect people.

You know you have strong faith when you believe in something that is to everyone else basically just gibberish.

The simple, straight forward, cop-out answer is "God has a plan." In the end, though, that's basically bullshit, the idea that Gods plan could involve the suffering of many leads logically to the belief that only the self matters, which is kind of contradictory to most philosophies which posit an omnibenevolent diety.

Call it a cop-out if you will. But isn't everything part of some organization or plan. Doesn't every rock, plant, bird exsist only because of a plan or organization. Science is organization. Then why is it if someone says God has a plan its a cop-out. Gods plan is for people to put aside the war, poverty, disease and avoidable problems of this world and live together as one human family. It is a plan that the world has been rejecting for centuries. Today God's Plan is quickening day by day.

You know you have strong faith when you believe in something that is to everyone else basically just gibberish.
Booya! That's me.

Maybe God doesn't mix in with dailey life and nature for a reason. If someone saw him appear on land and walk up to a giant wave and make it disapper instantly, he could kill them, which is BAD, which is something a GOOD god doesn't do. The person could lose it and end up in a mental hospital for the rest of their life.

Look at The Passion of The Christ, some guy saw that movie, began to think he was god, made a cross out of plywood in his back yard and nailed his hand to it. He then called a hospital and told them he was god, and asked if they could come nail his other hand and feet to the cross.


Maybe proof of God is to much for some to handle.

okay, a whole bunch of people "replied" to my post in a totally irrelevant manner. i wasn't trying to claim that a Good God should have done things differently, since i would never be so arrogant as to claim to understand an all-powerful being's trains of thought. i wasn't trying to say that the tsunami is proof God isn't all-good or all-powerful. on the contrary, i was simply saying that if you believe God is all-good, and you believe He is all-powerful, then you should be celebrating the tsunami (and all other "tragedies") because they are clearly the will of the all-good being that determines all of existence. they are, therefore, Good, even if we can't see how. to fail to thank your God for this tsunami is selfish and hypocritical, since He obviously brought it about or allowed it to happen because it was the best possible course of events.

so how can any believer in an all-good and all-powerful God complain about disasters? why be sad? why not be singing His praises, as you rightfully should?

At sometime in the past Lucifer, one of the archangles attempted to usurp the throne and authority of God and started a rebellion. (Isaiah 14:12-14)

Isaiah 14: 12-14 is part of a prophecy against Babylon, and has nothing to do with a rebel archangel.

Call it a cop-out if you will. But isn't everything part of some organization or plan. Doesn't every rock, plant, bird exsist only because of a plan or organization. Science is organization. Then why is it if someone says God has a plan its a cop-out.

because science generates testable theories that make predictions, and thus the "plans" set forth by science have application in life. if science determines the "plan" of a crystal structure then that information can be used in a variety of fields; if a religious leader says God has a plan then that is just a nice way of saying that we don't know and never will...no prediction, no testable theory, no practical application. it's just a philosophical throwing up of one's hands. that's not necessarily wrong, just useless.


Gods plan is for people to put aside the war, poverty, disease and avoidable problems of this world and live together as one human family. It is a plan that the world has been rejecting for centuries. Today God's Plan is quickening day by day.
it always amazes me how many believers express sentiments that directly contradict the beliefs they claim to hold. how can you possibly be so arrogant as to claim you know God's plan? is your God really so pathetic and limited that a mere human can know and comprehend his will? kind of a wussy God, if that's the case, and if not then perhaps you should focus more on the world you can comprehend instead of speculating about things you will never be able to know.

so how can any believer in an all-good and all-powerful God complain about disasters? why be sad? why not be singing His praises, as you rightfully should?
Maybe it's not the believers making complaning posts, but atheists trolling for a response?

Maybe it's not the believers making complaning posts, but atheists trolling for a response?
i didn't just mean around here, but in the papers and on the news as well. numerous articles have run in several papers i read, asking religious leaders and believers about how the tragedy impacts their God-belief, and i have yet to hear one single person voice what seems to be the obvious sentiment that would arise if one truly thought there was an all-powerful and all-good God. this suggests to me that nobody actually fully believes that their God is all-powerful and all-good, but that leads me to wonder what they actually believe and why they would claim to believe in something they don't really believe in.

the tsunami has nothing to do with good and evil. god did not kill 170,000 people in order to give us an example of what might happen if we dont shape up. to think that god would kill the innocent in order to punish the guilty is just sick. no wonder people stop believing in god if that is the kind of thing you are taught in church.


god has created an imperfect world full of imperfect people. if that is of itself EVIL, then i guess you can take it up with god. this is the world he chose to make and we are the imperfect free-willed people he made to live on it.

so shit happens. people get killed in all kinds of natural ways every day. things that are caused by the imperfect nature of our world. floods, mudslides, avalanches, diseases, lightning, earthquakes, volcanos, <insert bad thing here>. and then of course people get killed because other people exercise their free will to kill them or to not act to prevent their deaths.

this is the way the world is made. to live is to die.

WE ARE ALL DOOMED. we are all going to die. there is NO GOOD WAY to die. so a bunch of people get killed all from one horrible tragedy. they were already doomed. just as we are. we didnt die on december 26th but it is inevitable. if it is wrong of god to kill 170,000 in a tsunami, isnt it also wrong for him to kill the other 6 billion of us? and if its NOT evil for god to kill every last one of the 6 billion people alive today, why is it evil for him to have made a world that can kill 170,000 all at once?

so does the very fact of death mean that god is NOT benevolent?

and more importantly, do i have to answer that question?

the tsunami has nothing to do with good and evil. god did not kill 170,000 people in order to give us an example of what might happen if we dont shape up. to think that god would kill the innocent in order to punish the guilty is just sick. no wonder people stop believing in god if that is the kind of thing you are taught in church.


god has created an imperfect world full of imperfect people. if that is of itself EVIL, then i guess you can take it up with god. this is the world he chose to make and we are the imperfect free-willed people he made to live on it.

so shit happens. people get killed in all kinds of natural ways every day. things that are caused by the imperfect nature of our world. floods, mudslides, avalanches, diseases, lightning, earthquakes, volcanos, <insert bad thing here>. and then of course people get killed because other people exercise their free will to kill them or to not act to prevent their deaths.

this is the way the world is made. to live is to die.

WE ARE ALL DOOMED. we are all going to die. there is NO GOOD WAY to die. so a bunch of people get killed all from one horrible tragedy. they were already doomed. just as we are. we didnt die on december 26th but it is inevitable. if it is wrong of god to kill 170,000 in a tsunami, isnt it also wrong for him to kill the other 6 billion of us? and if its NOT evil for god to kill every last one of the 6 billion people alive today, why is it evil for him to have made a world that can kill 170,000 all at once?

so does the very fact of death mean that god is NOT benevolent?

and more importantly, do i have to answer that question?
none of which is on topic, but thanks anyhow...:P

Why is it that Christians always have to give their excuses for his non-performance on the benevolant side of his nature?
It's a simple question that deserves a simple answer; If God is good why does he let so much shitty things happen to INNOCENT lives?
Because he doesn't have free will.

One question ... how do you put forth a semi sucessfull rebelion against someone who is both omnipotant and omnipresent ?
I don't think it was a success.

Because he doesn't have free will.

If your God doesn't have free will how could he give it to man?

If I don't have ten pennies, I cannot give them to the poor!

In order to give something you must possess it first, that applies to knowledge, love, hate, wisdom, stupidity, material possessions, idea's....etc etc.

Because he doesn't have free will.
then he is not omipotent. that was contained in my thesis, so please address the topic i set forth. if one believes in an all-powerful and all-good God, then all tragedies (like the tsunami) should be hailed with celebration and thanks, just as all "miracles" are currently celebrated. please explain how people who believe in the God-type i described can express sorrow at some of God's blessings without being utter hypocrites.

so how can any believer in an all-good and all-powerful God complain about disasters? why be sad? why not be singing His praises, as you rightfully should?

Because many people have died. Call it a tragedy or a miricle the result is the same. While death in itself is not a sad thing, what it does to those it leaves behind is. The effects of death is what we are mourning, not death itself.

Because many people have died. Call it a tragedy or a miricle the result is the same. While death in itself is not a sad thing, what it does to those it leaves behind is. The effects of death is what we are mourning, not death itself.

If you have ever watched someone close to you die a horrible painful death you would never be so crass as to say that Neo.
Death may be welcomed by people who are suffering from an incurable affliction/disease/illness/injury but that doesn't make it any less sad for the 17 year old who has everything to live for but no time left to do anything about it.
How many children died on Boxing day?
As a christian you should be doing as Bottle says, and rejoicing in the disaster your god brought about. You call yourself a believer in Creation over evolution and in God and live by the word of the bible, therefor you should be singing the praises of your God for managing to ruin millions of lives in one go.

If you have ever watched someone close to you die a horrible painful death you would never be so crass as to say that Neo.
Death may be welcomed by people who are suffering from an incurable affliction/disease/illness/injury but that doesn't make it any less sad for the 17 year old who has everything to live for but no time left to do anything about it.


I agree there is potential lost, and that is sad. What I was saying is death itself (IE the end of life) for the individual person is not something sad. What is sad is for all those people who knew that individual person and will never know them again.


How many children died on Boxing day?
As a christian you should be doing as Bottle says, and rejoicing in the disaster your god brought about. You call yourself a believer in Creation over evolution and in God and live by the word of the bible, therefor you should be singing the praises of your God for managing to ruin millions of lives in one go.

And precisiely why should I do that? I don't see anything in the Bible that would encourage me to do anything of the sort? I would be interested to see why you think I should think like that.

Isaiah 14: 12-14 is part of a prophecy against Babylon, and has nothing to do with a rebel archangel.

Actually it is a mixed prophecy that has to do with more than one event, much like Christ's own prophecies in Matt. 24 and 25 that deal both with the destruction of Jerusalem and His second coming.

I agree there is potential lost, and that is sad. What I was saying is death itself (IE the end of life) for the individual person is not something sad. What is sad is for all those people who knew that individual person and will never know them again..

My friend died of an incurable illness, he was 19 years old and lucid right up to when he drew his last breath, I was there beside him until the end and believe me not only was it incredibly sad for me and his family it was immensley sad for him, with so much to live for and so much still to do and achieve he was far from ready to die, he wanted much more from life than he was allowed.
If he had been 70 or 80 he may have welcomed the release from pain but he was barely into adulthood and felt incredibly robbed.............I bet he is not the only one to feel that way just before they die.



And precisiely why should I do that? I don't see anything in the Bible that would encourage me to do anything of the sort? I would be interested to see why you think I should think like that.

You believe in God, you believe he has a good reason for anything, if he orchestrates a disaster then by your faith you believe he has good reason to bring that disaster on the world, therefor you should rejoice in his reasoning.
You can't have it both ways Neo, you cannot call your God good and benevolent and beyond question and just ignore his will. You can't rejoice in his goodness and ignore his evil side, your either for him, or against him.

i didn't just mean around here, but in the papers and on the news as well. numerous articles have run in several papers i read, asking religious leaders and believers about how the tragedy impacts their God-belief, and i have yet to hear one single person voice what seems to be the obvious sentiment that would arise if one truly thought there was an all-powerful and all-good God. this suggests to me that nobody actually fully believes that their God is all-powerful and all-good, but that leads me to wonder what they actually believe and why they would claim to believe in something they don't really believe in.

Please re-read my first post and the supporting scripture. God is both benevolent and all powerful, but what you're missing is that an enemy has done destructive things here. Yes, God could stop it all, but not without violating His own benevolence that has granted us free will and the freedom to live with the results of our choices that have made this planet and we as those to whom diminion of the planet was given and who subsequently abdicated that diminion to Lucifer, suffer the effects of cutting ourselves and this planet off from God's care.

Again, He has the power to intervene, but is benevolent enough to let us chose for ourselves who we will serve and to live without His intervention if that is our desire, even while it breaks His heart like a rebelious child breaks a parents heart.

tragedy n 1. an event resulting in great loss and misfortune.

Here's what I don't get: how can anybody who believes in an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God also believe in tragedy? If God is all-powerful then all things that occur are by God's will, and if God is all-good then all things the occur must be Good or else God wouldn't have allowed them to come about. So nothing that occurs can be classified as misfortune, by definition.

The tsunami disaster that hit southeast Asia has been a source of much religious speculation and chitter-chatter, and I just don't get that. If God is Good then the deaths and destruction were all Good, and we should be praising Him for bringing these blessings to us. How come God-believers thank God when He does things they like, but they won't thank him for this tsunami just because it wasn't what they personally wanted for Christmas? Isn't that awfully selfish, to only thank God for the blessings we like but to ignore all the other blessings He sends us (such as the tsunami)?

i think it IS on topic to point out that god created an imperfect world full of imperfect people. god did not CAUSE the tsunami except in that he created a world in which such things DO happen. he did not give it to us as a blessing and expect us to rejoice in things that are not capable of rejoicing in.

it is not in any way a lack of faith that causes religious people to mourn the dead. we mourn the dead because we are human.

You believe in God, you believe he has a good reason for anything, if he orchestrates a disaster then by your faith you believe he has good reason to bring that disaster on the world, therefor you should rejoice in his reasoning.
You can't have it both ways Neo, you cannot call your God good and benevolent and beyond question and just ignore his will. You can't rejoice in his goodness and ignore his evil side, your either for him, or against him.

The problem is that you are wanting to hold or wanting us to hold God culpeable for this, when its source is the antithesis of God. It would be like blaming the government there when a socio-path murders someone. Make sure you are casting blame where it is due.

i think it IS on topic to point out that god created an imperfect world full of imperfect people. god did not CAUSE the tsunami except in that he created a world in which such things DO happen. he did not give it to us as a blessing and expect us to rejoice in things that are not capable of rejoicing in.

it is not in any way a lack of faith that causes religious people to mourn the dead. we mourn the dead because we are human.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with that. God created a perfect world. When we, the human race, chose sin and seperation from God rather than connection and unity with Him and His divine will, this planet began the process of self-destruction. He has slowed that process to give as many people as is possible to chose to reconnect their lives with Him as the source of life, but at some point, everyone that can be convinced will have been and He will allow those who have chosen to remain eternally, completely seperated from Him to the natural results of their choice and this planet will self-destruct along with them.

He pleads with us, sacrificed His only Son to try to woo and win us back to connection with Him and still so many perfer to go their own way and even worse to blame Him when bad things happen.

The problem is that you are wanting to hold or wanting us to hold God culpeable for this, when its source is the antithesis of God. It would be like blaming the government there when a socio-path murders someone. Make sure you are casting blame where it is due.
So boils down to the devil did it not god … if so being omnipotent and present why did he let the devil do it… I can see not intervening with the devil trying to corrupt people … (kind of a test to see how good they are) but why did he let the devil kill all those people then? not really a test

So boils down to the devil did it not god … if so being omnipotent and present why did he let the devil do it… I can see not intervening with the devil trying to corrupt people … (kind of a test to see how good they are) but why did he let the devil kill all those people then? not really a test

Because the world is destroying itself and at some point know to God, no one else will ever chose to reconnect their lives with Him as the source of life and this world that has been progressively destroying itself and been subject to Lucifer's quest to harm that which God loves will destroy itself and those who chose seperation from God along with it.

It isn't a test, it is the awful result of sin/seperation from a God that will not force Himself on us against our wishes.

because science generates testable theories that make predictions, and thus the "plans" set forth by science have application in life. if science determines the "plan" of a crystal structure then that information can be used in a variety of fields; if a religious leader says God has a plan then that is just a nice way of saying that we don't know and never will...no prediction, no testable theory, no practical application. it's just a philosophical throwing up of one's hands. that's not necessarily wrong, just useless.


[QUOTE]it always amazes me how many believers express sentiments that directly contradict the beliefs they claim to hold. how can you possibly be so arrogant as to claim you know God's plan? is your God really so pathetic and limited that a mere human can know and comprehend his will? kind of a wussy God, if that's the case, and if not then perhaps you should focus more on the world you can comprehend instead of speculating about things you will never be able to know.

I think the whole purpose of God sending Messengers to humanity is so that we will know His plan. Why else would God send Messengers? If God doesn't want us to live together then why would He have created us? I realise that you don't believe in God which is your right. I am just explaining why I would make a seemly arrogant statement that God's plan is for us to live as one human family. The fact that humanity is one is something that religions have been expressing for a long time and science has only recently caught on to.

Baha'u'llah spoke clearly of humanity's oneness over 160 years ago when science was still claiming that black and other dark skinned people were inferior. It took religion, politics and science to make this acceptable in society. It is a task that remains unfinished.

If the statement about believers expressing sentinments directly contradicting beliefs that I or others claim to hold is directed at me I am unware of what that statement might be. Please feel free to share just what it is that is contradicting previous statements.

If your God doesn't have free will how could he give it to man?

If I don't have ten pennies, I cannot give them to the poor!

In order to give something you must possess it first, that applies to knowledge, love, hate, wisdom, stupidity, material possessions, idea's....etc etc.
Free will isn't a thing that God implanted into Man; it's the ability to willfully make choices. He "gives" it to us by stepping back and doing nothing, because any action on his part would limit the choices.

God doesn't have free will, he has God's Will. This means he can only "act" in accordance with his nature, which is as creator.

then he is not omipotent. that was contained in my thesis, so please address the topic i set forth. if one believes in an all-powerful and all-good God, then all tragedies (like the tsunami) should be hailed with celebration and thanks, just as all "miracles" are currently celebrated. please explain how people who believe in the God-type i described can express sorrow at some of God's blessings without being utter hypocrites.
Yeah, sorry. I couldn't resist. I won't post anymore off-topic.

I'm not going to reply to the topic at hand, as obviously it's addessed to those who a) subscribe to the literalist version of the omnipotent God, and b) that small minority of them who believe God is all-whatever.

The problem is that you are wanting to hold or wanting us to hold God culpeable for this, when its source is the antithesis of God. It would be like blaming the government there when a socio-path murders someone. Make sure you are casting blame where it is due.

The point I am making is that *you* believe in a God who is *supposed* to be *all good*, you also believe that he created us and the earth and that he has a hand in everything that goes on.
*If* your god was as omnibelevolent as you say he is then why did he stand back and watch/let/instigate such a disaster (or any disaster/war for that matter) as the boxing day tsunami?

Governments don't claim to be able to control every citizen (though I am sure they would like to) so your analogy is just a tad off base with the real question.

I don't believe in your God, or any invisible entity therefor I can see the tsunami for what it was. (i.e. the result of an undersea earthquake caused by either a weak spot in the earths crust or tectonic plates going for a wee wander).
Many Christians, on the other hand, see the disaster as God "testing" humanity or the result of "sin/seperation from a God that will not force Himself on us against our wishes."
Do you really believe that every one of the people killed in any disaster are Athiests or have denied God?

Now I'm not really a "religious" man, nor much of what you might call a "reader," but isn't this what Job is all about?

Free will isn't a thing that God implanted into Man; it's the ability to willfully make choices. He "gives" it to us by stepping back and doing nothing, because any action on his part would limit the choices.

God doesn't have free will, he has God's Will. This means he can only "act" in accordance with his nature, which is as creator.

So your not denying that he *could* do something if he so desired, but by not doing something he is doing mankind the favour of letting them make their own choices?

The problem with all your answers here is that it would take an enormous leap of faith to be comfortable with anything your God did or didn't do for mankind.

I just find it incredibly hard to relate to a God, who if I were to believe in had created all (the earth and mankind and every microbe and beast on the planet) and then sat back and (metaphorically speaking) gradually pulled the legs of the spider.

tragedy n 1. an event resulting in great loss and misfortune.

Here's what I don't get: how can anybody who believes in an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God also believe in tragedy? If God is all-powerful then all things that occur are by God's will, and if God is all-good then all things the occur must be Good or else God wouldn't have allowed them to come about. So nothing that occurs can be classified as misfortune, by definition.

The tsunami disaster that hit southeast Asia has been a source of much religious speculation and chitter-chatter, and I just don't get that. If God is Good then the deaths and destruction were all Good, and we should be praising Him for bringing these blessings to us. How come God-believers thank God when He does things they like, but they won't thank him for this tsunami just because it wasn't what they personally wanted for Christmas? Isn't that awfully selfish, to only thank God for the blessings we like but to ignore all the other blessings He sends us (such as the tsunami)?


I believe that not everything is God's will. I believe that he sets things in motion and then lets it take their course under the rules he's set for them. He only interferes when it isn't his will and our will get in the way.

I believe that not everything is God's will. I believe that he sets things in motion and then lets it take their course under the rules he's set for them. He only interferes when it isn't his will and our will get in the way.
So he sets up the rules … if he is in control of all the rules everything that happens within those rules is his will (being omnipresent)

You believe in God, you believe he has a good reason for anything, if he orchestrates a disaster then by your faith you believe he has good reason to bring that disaster on the world, therefor you should rejoice in his reasoning.
You can't have it both ways Neo, you cannot call your God good and benevolent and beyond question and just ignore his will. You can't rejoice in his goodness and ignore his evil side, your either for him, or against him.

There is a reason/purpose/meaning behind many things (I wont say all, because I am not God and I don't know if there is meaning behind everything. The Bible makes it clear there is meaning behind many things though). What exactly the meaning is I do not know. But one thing I know for sure is that there is meaning. God does'nt have an "Evil side" as you so elequently put it. He is not evil in anyway. Lets just take your logic for a second. Assume that he did stop the Tsunami. Would we be grateful? No because we didnt know. So then the logic would be is that we should be grateful for the fact that there are no Tsunamis/Earthquakes/Volcanos/Asteroid impacts etc etc at this very moment. Now then, lets continue your logic. If God stoped the Tsunami, then presumably he would stop every other kind of serious nautral disaster. Fine, but then we would get angry at low level storms for nature causeing any kind of damage. We would go down and down and down untill we get angry at winter for giving us a cold.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with that. God created a perfect world. When we, the human race, chose sin and seperation from God rather than connection and unity with Him and His divine will, this planet began the process of self-destruction. He has slowed that process to give as many people as is possible to chose to reconnect their lives with Him as the source of life, but at some point, everyone that can be convinced will have been and He will allow those who have chosen to remain eternally, completely seperated from Him to the natural results of their choice and this planet will self-destruct along with them.

He pleads with us, sacrificed His only Son to try to woo and win us back to connection with Him and still so many perfer to go their own way and even worse to blame Him when bad things happen.
but the WE who chose were 2 human beings who werent even told the whole story. god is the one who decided that the fall meant that the world had to be imperfect, we didnt decide that. god made the world imperfect.

in any case the world you and i were born into is far from perfect. bad things happen geologically because of that imperfection not because god decided that today was a good day to kill 170,000 people en masse. god has decided that we will all die. god has decided that "life is suffering" but that doesnt mean that everything that happens is god's PLAN.

but the WE who chose were 2 human beings who werent even told the whole story. god is the one who decided that the fall meant that the world had to be imperfect, we didnt decide that. god made the world imperfect.

in any case the world you and i were born into is far from perfect. bad things happen geologically because of that imperfection not because god decided that today was a good day to kill 170,000 people en masse. god has decided that we will all die. god has decided that "life is suffering" but that doesnt mean that everything that happens is god's PLAN.
Seems so … sadistic

There is a reason/purpose/meaning behind many things (I wont say all, because I am not God and I don't know if there is meaning behind everything. The Bible makes it clear there is meaning behind many things though). What exactly the meaning is I do not know. But one thing I know for sure is that there is meaning. God does'nt have an "Evil side" as you so elequently put it. He is not evil in anyway. Lets just take your logic for a second. Assume that he did stop the Tsunami. Would we be grateful? No because we didnt know. So then the logic would be is that we should be grateful for the fact that there are no Tsunamis/Earthquakes/Volcanos/Asteroid impacts etc etc at this very moment. Now then, lets continue your logic. If God stoped the Tsunami, then presumably he would stop every other kind of serious nautral disaster. Fine, but then we would get angry at low level storms for nature causeing any kind of damage. We would go down and down and down untill we get angry at winter for giving us a cold.

Which is exactly why I don't believe in God, he doesn't live up to what Christians preach.
The earth evolved, as did man and every other living thing.
Religion evolved through mans writings and moral code, in other words it was invented as a device to give as many people (at the time of it's conception) guidance in a semi moral way.
It served it's purpose to a degree but nowadays, with the advancement of science it is becoming more and more absurd. The basic principles of it's moral code (or ten comandments or any number of the parables etc) still hold strong i.e. don't kill, steal, sleep with neighbours wife etc but the God thing just doesn't hold water any more.

The earth is very unstable, we can only cling to life on around 5% of the planets surface as it is. Tsunami's, earthquakes etc have all been shown to be the work of the earth itself and not some omnipotent being.

Let's go in the other direction - what if the tsuanami was 'man made'. "Hey let's drop a nuke in the ocean, say where fault lines are known to be, and set it off a pre-determined time. Let's estimate what the results would be and see how we stack up realitically. A little far fetched, maybe not. Watch from satelite, and when no ships are around, let it go! Boom baby!

Yeah, I know it's sound like it's out of the X-files, but then again I personally think the AIDS virus is man 'altered', and nobody with any expertise wants to admit it. Humans have been having sex since the dawn of time, but it takes 1000's of years for years to develope, and then just explode in the last 20 years. Sorry, but someone slipped this one past us. Perhaps someone's grand plan of wiping out people with a sexual preference different from their own; never imagined it going over to another continent and threaten to wipe it out.

I don't mean to hi-jack the thread, perhaps there is a 'grand plan', it's just not on a divine level.

Those damn Stone Cutters.

So your not denying that he *could* do something if he so desired, but by not doing something he is doing mankind the favour of letting them make their own choices?
God is not all-powerful in the interpretation of "power do to all"; that's not what it means, in my opinion. God's power is the power of creation, or in astrological terms, the spark of creation within an infinite creative potential. And yes, I personally consider it a good thing to be able to make my own choices --don't you?

Let's go in the other direction - what if the tsuanami was 'man made'. "Hey let's drop a nuke in the ocean, say where fault lines are known to be, and set it off a pre-determined time. Let's estimate what the results would be and see how we stack up realitically. A little far fetched, maybe not. Watch from satelite, and when no ships are around, let it go! Boom baby!

Yeah, I know it's sound like it's out of the X-files, but then again I personally think the AIDS virus is man 'altered', and nobody with any expertise wants to admit it. Humans have been having sex since the dawn of time, but it takes 1000's of years for years to develope, and then just explode in the last 20 years. Sorry, but someone slipped this one past us. Perhaps someone's grand plan of wiping out people with a sexual preference different from their own; never imagined it going over to another continent and threaten to wipe it out.

I don't mean to hi-jack the thread, perhaps there is a 'grand plan', it's just not on a divine level.

Those damn Stone Cutters.

Except that AIDS is a virus that has been in monkeys in Africa for years and this is what started the Aids epidemic, it's not a gay disease in fact there are more hetero sufferers than gay ones.

I can relate to the nuke idea though, it's highly likely we can destroy our own planet without the help of an invisible God.

Let's go in the other direction - what if the tsuanami was 'man made'. "Hey let's drop a nuke in the ocean, say where fault lines are known to be, and set it off a pre-determined time. Let's estimate what the results would be and see how we stack up realitically. A little far fetched, maybe not. Watch from satelite, and when no ships are around, let it go! Boom baby!

Yeah, I know it's sound like it's out of the X-files, but then again I personally think the AIDS virus is man 'altered', and nobody with any expertise wants to admit it. Humans have been having sex since the dawn of time, but it takes 1000's of years for years to develope, and then just explode in the last 20 years. Sorry, but someone slipped this one past us. Perhaps someone's grand plan of wiping out people with a sexual preference different from their own; never imagined it going over to another continent and threaten to wipe it out.

I don't mean to hi-jack the thread, perhaps there is a 'grand plan', it's just not on a divine level.

Those damn Stone Cutters.

but you have to concider in the past travel was long and rarly undertaken ... as travel picks up so will the rate of international spread of viruses

God is not all-powerful in the interpretation of "power do to all"; that's not what it means, in my opinion. God's power is the power of creation, or in astrological terms, the spark of creation within an infinite creative potential. And yes, I personally consider it a good thing to be able to make my own choices --don't you?

Yup, I sure do like making my own choices, but that comes with living in a free country, not because your God decreed it so.

Yup, I sure do like making my own choices, but that comes with living in a free country, not because your God decreed it so.
D'uh.

Which is exactly why I don't believe in God, he doesn't live up to what Christians preach.
The earth evolved, as did man and every other living thing.
Religion evolved through mans writings and moral code, in other words it was invented as a device to give as many people (at the time of it's conception) guidance in a semi moral way.
It served it's purpose to a degree but nowadays, with the advancement of science it is becoming more and more absurd. The basic principles of it's moral code (or ten comandments or any number of the parables etc) still hold strong i.e. don't kill, steal, sleep with neighbours wife etc but the God thing just doesn't hold water any more.

The earth is very unstable, we can only cling to life on around 5% of the planets surface as it is. Tsunami's, earthquakes etc have all been shown to be the work of the earth itself and not some omnipotent being.


1) Christians never preach that God goes around the world ending all suffering. Nor do they say "If you become a Christian, life will be peachy". I dont know what your refering to exactly here and I would be interested to know

2) Science may explain how certian things happened, but it does not disprove God. The Bible never says anything like "And God causes X to happen to Y by doing Z A B and C method". By proving that there are specific causes to specific events (like the Tsunami) you have not disproven God's existance since God never said how he interacted with the world. God never said "You will know that I have caused this because you will see X/detect Y/observe Z" etc. So science has not disproved something. To disprove something you have to have a comparable model to disprove, for example I have to say "I belive that X happens because Y causes it". But if someone did an experiment removing Y and X still happened then I am wrong. But thats not the case here. You cant take God out of the equation. There is no way to prove or disprove certianly God's involvement in anything. You cannot claim "The idea of God is wrong because..." as there is no way for you to fill in the blanks. Christianity is not (as you seem to think it is) the way of explaining all the strange things in the world. Read the Bible and you will see what it is. A relationship with God.

3) I would like to know your specific reasons why you believe the notion of God no longer holds water.

Because God won't lie or force His perspective on any, and Lucifer's deception was good enough to fool some of those who live in the very presence of God. As a result, short of ruling from fear or making automoton out of us all, He had to allow the universe and us to see the results of living apart from the only perfect way of life.


and according to your religion what being, who knows every single aspect of the future anyway purposely *created* Lucifer just as he was, knowing that Lucifer would act as he did, so that he would do what he does and cause all these problems, hmm??

and according to your religion what being, who knows every single aspect of the future anyway purposely *created* Lucifer just as he was, knowing that Lucifer would act as he did, so that he would do what he does and cause all these problems, hmm??


I am going to jump in here. Lucifer, the devil and the story of Adam and Eve and many other writings in both the OT and NT are not meant to be taken literal.

The following comes from the Baha'i Faith.
"Regarding your question relative to the condition of those people who are described in the Gospel as being possessed of devils; this should be interpreted figuratively; devil or Satan is symbolic of evil and dark forces yielding to temptation."

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 513)

1) Christians never preach that God goes around the world ending all suffering. Nor do they say "If you become a Christian, life will be peachy". I dont know what your refering to exactly here and I would be interested to know.

I never said that either but, from my own experience in the church (I did used to be a christian and did believe the bible at one time) I was taught to surrender myself to Christ and God and all would be well with my life.
Sadly, this turned out to be lie.


2) Science may explain how certian things happened, but it does not disprove God. The Bible never says anything like "And God causes X to happen to Y by doing Z A B and C method". By proving that there are specific causes to specific events (like the Tsunami) you have not disproven God's existance since God never said how he interacted with the world. God never said "You will know that I have caused this because you will see X/detect Y/observe Z" etc. So science has not disproved something. To disprove something you have to have a comparable model to disprove, for example I have to say "I belive that X happens because Y causes it". But if someone did an experiment removing Y and X still happened then I am wrong. But thats not the case here. You cant take God out of the equation. There is no way to prove or disprove certianly God's involvement in anything. You cannot claim "The idea of God is wrong because..." as there is no way for you to fill in the blanks. Christianity is not (as you seem to think it is) the way of explaining all the strange things in the world. Read the Bible and you will see what it is. A relationship with God..

I do not need to even try to disprove or prove a concept like God, the onus is on the believer to prove his exsistance.
I *know* but cannot prove that God doesn't exist for me.
I know that I believe in the science of evolution even though I also know that nothing is set in stone and that even science continues to evolve and correct itself constantly.

I am happy for you and your relationship with your God, I really am, just as I am happy with my wifes relationship with God and my sons relationship with his church but it is a personal thing and if it gives you comfort then great! it's just not for me. It doesn't make sense and is too far fetched to be meaningful in any way.

3) I would like to know your specific reasons why you believe the notion of God no longer holds water.

I think I have already explained this many times to you Neo.

God is supposed to be good yet lets bad things happen.
God is supposed to have created the world but lets disasters happen.
God is supposed to be omnibenevolent/omnipresent and all the other "omni" that go with him, yet I have yet to feel/hear/see/touch or taste anything that I could remotely attribute to an invisible being/entity/diety/whatever.

The point I am making is that *you* believe in a God who is *supposed* to be *all good*, you also believe that he created us and the earth and that he has a hand in everything that goes on.
*If* your god was as omnibelevolent as you say he is then why did he stand back and watch/let/instigate such a disaster (or any disaster/war for that matter) as the boxing day tsunami?

Governments don't claim to be able to control every citizen (though I am sure they would like to) so your analogy is just a tad off base with the real question.

I don't believe in your God, or any invisible entity therefor I can see the tsunami for what it was. (i.e. the result of an undersea earthquake caused by either a weak spot in the earths crust or tectonic plates going for a wee wander).
Many Christians, on the other hand, see the disaster as God "testing" humanity or the result of
Do you really believe that every one of the people killed in any disaster are Athiests or have denied God?

I don't claim that God is in control of every person. He is able to be, but chooses to give us freedom of choice for ourselves, in much the same way that a parent doesn't make every choice for an mature adult child. He allows us the freedom to chose and the freedom to experience the consequences of our choices.

As to the issue of testing, I don't believe God was "testing"/intentioally harming anyone, to test the rest of us. Nor do I believe that everyone who was killed, or even the majority, not that I would judge any of them even if I knew them, because they were evil. There deaths are the result of a world decomposing under the weight of 6,000+ years of sin. One of the heinous results of sin is that it in non-discriminatory in who it hurts. That is why God will one day re-create this earth in it original sinless, painless, deathless, destructionless perfection and offers a free invitation to any who wish to join Him them and He wrote that invitation in His own blood.

Seems so … sadistic

Except that God did tell them what would happen. Eve chose not to believe Him and Adam chose to fall with Eve rather than to follow God.

There are two great commandments that are the only way to perfectly govern the universe and when they are defied they severe us from the source of life. We are to, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your strength and with all might. This is the first great commandment and the second is like unto it. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Upon these two hang all the law and the prophets."

Rendering God first allegience, above self or others is the only way to live in harmony within the universe.

What exactly is the excuse for someone who is ALL-KNOWING, who CREATED EVERYTHING and is ALL-POWERFUL, to have anything happen NOT within his "plan?" You mean something happens and God goes, "whoa, I didn't see THAT coming!?" I don't think so. He foresaw everything, EVERYTHING when he was creating the whole universe. And he fashioned the universe in order to fulfill what he saw.

Housing contractor builds a house, some unforeseen thing happens, it collapses and kills a family. Contractor's fault? (Morally?) I don't think so. He can't be blamed for the mistakes of other people or random chance.

God, on the other hand, knows every nut, bolt, frame, beam, surface and material of the house. He knows exactly where all the most microscopic of stress fractures are, and knows at all times that it will collapse, and innocents will die as a result. He builds it anyway. Is he to blame? YES.

In our society, though, the housing contractor would get his ass sued and then pounded when he spends 30 years in prison for murder (next to some guy who raped twenty schoolkids and is serving 6 months for it). Meanwhile, God gets off totally, because the jury says "oh well, it was part of some plan he had - so it was OK."

Of course it's all moot, since God doesn't exist and we're applying logic to the revamped, quasi-modernized tribal/racial spiritual mythology of the Hebrews. Mixed usually with worship of a particular dead hebrew. Doesn't actually have much relevance in my way of thinking.

Ok, you have a child, and that child has a bike, it rides the bike but falls off and cuts it's knee. You love the child, and you have the power to take the bike away and prevent further injury, but you don't as that is all part of learning, and it is better to let the child learn from it's own mistakes then be massivly over protective.

Tom

and according to your religion what being, who knows every single aspect of the future anyway purposely *created* Lucifer just as he was, knowing that Lucifer would act as he did, so that he would do what he does and cause all these problems, hmm??

Because He believes in a service out of love based on free will. The only way for this to be a reality is to allow the possibility of rejection as well.

Well, I practice a very nature-based pagan religion, so I blame the tragedy on more of a lack of balance than anything else. Something in nature became unbalanced, so there was a tsunami. It's rather similar to the butterfly effect. I believe it is this statement (Please, by gods, correct me if I'm wrong. I'll be rather grateful.) "a butterfly flapping its wings in japan could cause a tsunami in brazil"


In other words, if something small upsets the balance, it can cause something catastrophic.

What exactly is the excuse for someone who is ALL-KNOWING, who CREATED EVERYTHING and is ALL-POWERFUL, to have anything happen NOT within his "plan?" You mean something happens and God goes, "whoa, I didn't see THAT coming!?" I don't think so. He foresaw everything, EVERYTHING when he was creating the whole universe. And he fashioned the universe in order to fulfill what he saw.

Housing contractor builds a house, some unforeseen thing happens, it collapses and kills a family. Contractor's fault? (Morally?) I don't think so. He can't be blamed for the mistakes of other people or random chance.

God, on the other hand, knows every nut, bolt, frame, beam, surface and material of the house. He knows exactly where all the most microscopic of stress fractures are, and knows at all times that it will collapse, and innocents will die as a result. He builds it anyway. Is he to blame? YES.

In our society, though, the housing contractor would get his ass sued and then pounded when he spends 30 years in prison for murder (next to some guy who raped twenty schoolkids and is serving 6 months for it). Meanwhile, God gets off totally, because the jury says "oh well, it was part of some plan he had - so it was OK."

Of course it's all moot, since God doesn't exist and we're applying logic to the revamped, quasi-modernized tribal/racial spiritual mythology of the Hebrews. Mixed usually with worship of a particular dead hebrew. Doesn't actually have much relevance in my way of thinking.

And now we run into the problem of predestination. Does foreknowledge = causation? The answer still lays in the issue of free will. Just becuase I know you are going to do something bad doesn't mean I have the right to kill you or force you to stop and if I do either, I have not allowed you free will.

i do not belive in a god however you can see the tsunami as a harsh ability of nature, its not just this but lots of areas around the world have been affected by freak weather nyet no one has even said the word global warming nature is a force that we cannot control and this may remain in the future however nature has a way of destroying the population as a population control this has happened many times before and the reason for this i unknown. if effects like these are happening now what could be happening soon within the next few years please try to conserve our world. if you did want to see atleast a good example of the power of people look to the generous donations, care and affection that people have shown for the victims it is a sign of the human greatness rather than religious greatness.


ps i do not wih to offend anyown who say this message as a lack of respect for the victims those who suffered and those who suffered becuase of the suffering

What exactly is the excuse for someone who is ALL-KNOWING, who CREATED EVERYTHING and is ALL-POWERFUL, to have anything happen NOT within his "plan?" You mean something happens and God goes, "whoa, I didn't see THAT coming!?" I don't think so. He foresaw everything, EVERYTHING when he was creating the whole universe. And he fashioned the universe in order to fulfill what he saw.

Housing contractor builds a house, some unforeseen thing happens, it collapses and kills a family. Contractor's fault? (Morally?) I don't think so. He can't be blamed for the mistakes of other people or random chance.

God, on the other hand, knows every nut, bolt, frame, beam, surface and material of the house. He knows exactly where all the most microscopic of stress fractures are, and knows at all times that it will collapse, and innocents will die as a result. He builds it anyway. Is he to blame? YES.

In our society, though, the housing contractor would get his ass sued and then pounded when he spends 30 years in prison for murder (next to some guy who raped twenty schoolkids and is serving 6 months for it). Meanwhile, God gets off totally, because the jury says "oh well, it was part of some plan he had - so it was OK."

Of course it's all moot, since God doesn't exist and we're applying logic to the revamped, quasi-modernized tribal/racial spiritual mythology of the Hebrews. Mixed usually with worship of a particular dead hebrew. Doesn't actually have much relevance in my way of thinking.

yes god is to "blame"

he has set up an imperfect world in which bad things happen almost constantly.

(that god knows it will happen doesnt mean he wants it to happen. its just the way this world works.)

the more you are in tune with your humanity, the more you suffer. even if you life a pretty good life (like i do) you are affected by the suffering of those around you. (ask not for whom the bell tolls.....)

there is no way out of it. (ok maybe if you are a serious buddhist but i dont know that i want to live without caring) either you die young, thus being robbed of your lifes potential or you live long enough to see many of those you love die. the more you love, the more you suffer but life without love is empty.

so god has intended us to suffer. that is the central mystery of religion isnt it? why did god make the world this way? is there a greater good that is acheived by putting us through this life? (not unlike the pain your child has when getting an inoculation) does it make "heaven" better because we lived through this hell?

beats me. all i know is that god didnt decree any particular tragedy. they are just in integral part of the world he chose to create (for reasons you can ask him when you get to see him in person)

i do not belive in a god however you can see the tsunami as a harsh ability of nature, its not just this but lots of areas around the world have been affected by freak weather nyet no one has even said the word global warming nature is a force that we cannot control and this may remain in the future however nature has a way of destroying the population as a population control this has happened many times before and the reason for this i unknown. if effects like these are happening now what could be happening soon within the next few years please try to conserve our world. if you did want to see atleast a good example of the power of people look to the generous donations, care and affection that people have shown for the victims it is a sign of the human greatness rather than religious greatness.


ps i do not wih to offend anyown who say this message as a lack of respect for the victims those who suffered and those who suffered becuase of the suffering

fu

I never said that either but, from my own experience in the church (I did used to be a christian and did believe the bible at one time) I was taught to surrender myself to Christ and God and all would be well with my life.
Sadly, this turned out to be lie.


Your Church needs to do some serious study of the Bible then. If you read it, you will see that it never promises that life will be all nice and wonderful in this world if you become a Christian. Quite the oppisite infact.


I do not need to even try to disprove or prove a concept like God, the onus is on the believer to prove his exsistance.
I *know* but cannot prove that God doesn't exist for me.
I know that I believe in the science of evolution even though I also know that nothing is set in stone and that even science continues to evolve and correct itself constantly.


I too *know* that God does exist but cannot prove it. Thats what faith is.


God is supposed to be good yet lets bad things happen.
God is supposed to have created the world but lets disasters happen.
God is supposed to be omnibenevolent/omnipresent and all the other "omni" that go with him, yet I have yet to feel/hear/see/touch or taste anything that I could remotely attribute to an invisible being/entity/diety/whatever.

God never promises to stop bad things happening. I have already explained this in a previous post but now I will just quote myself to make the point.


Lets just take your logic for a second. Assume that he did stop the Tsunami. Would we be grateful? No because we didnt know. So then the logic would be is that we should be grateful for the fact that there are no Tsunamis/Earthquakes/Volcanos/Asteroid impacts etc etc at this very moment. Now then, lets continue your logic. If God stoped the Tsunami, then presumably he would stop every other kind of serious nautral disaster. Fine, but then we would get angry at low level storms for nature causeing any kind of damage. We would go down and down and down untill we get angry at winter for giving us a cold.


Now I agree that if God had promised that life would be fine and peachy for everyone then yes he is not keeping up with his end of the promise. But he did not promise that. You are making an asumption here which has no bearing in Christian logic. Non Christians, trying to disprove Chrisitanity using Christian infomation but interpriting said infomation in a Non Chrisitan manner is always flawed. Heres an extract from a web page explaing how most modern philosphers reject this argument completely and why


The standard form of the PoE (a non-technical statement) looks like this:

a. God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-good, and therefore should have the will and the ability to eliminate evil and/or suffering.

b. Such a god would be obligated by His/Her/Its/Their ethics to eliminate evil and suffering (i.e. there is no adequate reason for it to be allowed to eventuate/continue);

c. Evil and suffering ostensibly occur.

Therefore, the god described in proposition A does not, in fact, exist.

It is now well known in philosophy that this argument is considered by the majority to be unsustainable, especially its logical form [cf. RRB, chapter 6; and Howard-Snyder's intro in his book TH:EAE, noting that the logical argument "has found its way to the dustbin of philosophical fashions" (p.xiii)] due to the inability (logically) to demonstrate the truthfulness of the parenthetical clause in Step B. Since we cannot even conceive of all the possible "permissible reasons" that would render evil "justifiable", we cannot therefore show that there are no such reasons. We can perhaps show that all historical proposed "reasons" are inadequate so far, but this is a far cry from showing that any future conceivable one would likewise fail

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/gr5part1.html

Full link

And now we run into the problem of predestination. Does foreknowledge = causation? The answer still lays in the issue of free will. Just becuase I know you are going to do something bad doesn't mean I have the right to kill you or force you to stop and if I do either, I have not allowed you free will.
But god is omnipotent ... not really killing if you never existed in the first place

I too *know*

No you THINK you know god exists.

(thought it all maters with the "beyond certenty" part but we can argue if anything is certian)

Ok, you have a child, and that child has a bike, it rides the bike but falls off and cuts it's knee. You love the child, and you have the power to take the bike away and prevent further injury, but you don't as that is all part of learning, and it is better to let the child learn from it's own mistakes then be massivly over protective.
Okay, you have a child, and that child has a chemistry set and develops a neurotoxin that can wipe out all of mankind. You love the child, and you have the power to take away his chemistry set and prevent further injury, but you don't as that is all part of learning, and it is better to let the child learn from its own mistakes than be massively over-protective.

Believe me, it works. This is free will.

No you THINK you know god exists.


And you THINK he doesnt. Neither one of us can be completely certian

There is no such thing as evil. Suffering is an illusion created by worldly attachments and human ignorance. In reality, everything is good.

Because God won't lie or force His perspective on any, and Lucifer's deception was good enough to fool some of those who live in the very presence of God. As a result, short of ruling from fear or making automoton out of us all, He had to allow the universe and us to see the results of living apart from the only perfect way of life.
Umm...If you believe biblical accounts, may I remind you of Noah's flood, Soddom & Gomorrah...etc. If that isn't God forcing his perspective, I don't know what is.

And you THINK he doesnt. Neither one of us can be completely certian
Exactly ... Never said any different

A quote from Wrath II seems to sum up this whole thing...

"And on the sixth day, God created man. By the seventh day, he'd realized his mistake.....and "BUGGER!" was the word."

But god is omnipotent ... not really killing if you never existed in the first place


It would still be limitation of free will wouldn't it?

Because He believes in a service out of love based on free will. The only way for this to be a reality is to allow the possibility of rejection as well.

What I am saying is that as long as one blames the devil, or says that the world is imperfect or one of those other things, then the idea of God being omnibenevolent, omniscinent, and omnipotent is not internally logical.

Of the Christian *literalists* in this thread (which I believe excludes Willamena and GoodThoughts as they do not seem to believe in the literal traditions) the only one who is really being internally consistant is Neo. In order for God to be all the omni's he *has* to have caused it all, and it has to have been good, even if humans can't fathom how or why it would be could be so (which lack of understanding would also be part of the good yet ineffible plan thus allowing for sadness and a potential crisis of faith - ie free will and whatnot). Not saying that I personally believe that, just that it is the only viewpoint that I have seen in this topic that is logically consistent with a biblically literal view of a God that would be all those omni's who also allows for free will.

Umm...If you believe biblical accounts, may I remind you of Noah's flood, Soddom & Gomorrah...etc. If that isn't God forcing his perspective, I don't know what is.

Pre Crucifixtion, nice try though

i think it IS on topic to point out that god created an imperfect world full of imperfect people.

what does the imperfection of humans have to do with a natural disaster? human actions did not bring about the tsunami.

god did not CAUSE the tsunami except in that he created a world in which such things DO happen.

if God is all powerful then He has the power to stop things like the tsunami. if He chooses not to stop them, that means he has decided they should occur.


he did not give it to us as a blessing and expect us to rejoice in things that are not capable of rejoicing in.

we are supposed to rejoice in many things that are illogical, irrational, and contrary to the simple realities of human nature. why should this be any different? and how can you possibly presume to know what God's intentions are, or what He wishes us to celebrate?


it is not in any way a lack of faith that causes religious people to mourn the dead. we mourn the dead because we are human.
if a person truly believes in an all-powerful and all-good God, and particularly if that person also believes in the afterlife presided over by said God, then there is no reason to mourn at all. if you claim to believe in that God and yet you also mourn the dead then either you are lying, or you are amazingly selfish, or you are holding inconsistent beliefs.

Ok, you have a child, and that child has a bike, it rides the bike but falls off and cuts it's knee. You love the child, and you have the power to take the bike away and prevent further injury, but you don't as that is all part of learning, and it is better to let the child learn from it's own mistakes then be massivly over protective.

Tom
er, or how about we describe a situation that actually applies here?

you have a child, and that child has a bike. one day, as your child is riding the bike, you see a tidal wave heading down your street, about to kill your child. you could grab your kid and head into the safety of your home (we'll pretend your home is tidal-wave-proof, in this case), or you can allow your child to be killed.

what does the imperfection of humans have to do with a natural disaster? human actions did not bring about the tsunami.
the imperfection of humanity is a huge cause of suffering in the world that is often whined about GOD letting happen. "why did god let that man shoot my child?"


if God is all powerful then He has the power to stop things like the tsunami. if He chooses not to stop them, that means he has decided they should occur.
no it just means he has chosen not to interfere with the natural working of the universe he has created. i think that that is obvious to us all, god does not mess with the running of the universe.


we are supposed to rejoice in many things that are illogical, irrational, and contrary to the simple realities of human nature. why should this be any different? and how can you possibly presume to know what God's intentions are, or what He wishes us to celebrate?
because no religious text tells us to. if one believes in god and that he has revealed things to us in scripture, one relies on that scripture for guidance in such things.


if a person truly believes in an all-powerful and all-good God, and particularly if that person also believes in the afterlife presided over by said God, then there is no reason to mourn at all. if you claim to believe in that God and yet you also mourn the dead then either you are lying, or you are amazingly selfish, or you are holding inconsistent beliefs.
as you know i DONT believe in god. but religious people are HUMAN. and human beings mourn the dead. (god made us that way) we dont stop being human because we become christians and believe in the resurrection of the dead. belief doesnt overcome human emotions. in the END after a period of mourning, we still miss the dead but a religious person who believes that their dead loved ones are in heaven, comes to a peace about it and looks forward to being reunited with them in the afterlife.

[QUOTE]Which is exactly why I don't believe in God, he doesn't live up to what Christians preach.

Blobites, I just have to comment, God is not supposed to live up to what Christians preach. Christians are supposed to live up to the teachings of Christ. If they are not able to "live up" to Christs teachings it doesn't seem fair to blame God.

[QUOTE]Religion evolved through mans writings and moral code, in other words it was invented as a device to give as many people (at the time of it's conception) guidance in a semi moral way.It served it's purpose to a degree but nowadays, with the advancement of science it is becoming more and more absurd.

I agree that religion has evolved, but I doubt that it was just through the writings of man. The Messengers of God in varied part of the world at different times have renewed and expanded the spiritual truth as human capicity has expanded, just as we have a larger capacity for scientific knowledge.

tragedy n 1. an event resulting in great loss and misfortune.

Here's what I don't get: how can anybody who believes in an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God also believe in tragedy? If God is all-powerful then all things that occur are by God's will, and if God is all-good then all things the occur must be Good or else God wouldn't have allowed them to come about. So nothing that occurs can be classified as misfortune, by definition.

The tsunami disaster that hit southeast Asia has been a source of much religious speculation and chitter-chatter, and I just don't get that. If God is Good then the deaths and destruction were all Good, and we should be praising Him for bringing these blessings to us. How come God-believers thank God when He does things they like, but they won't thank him for this tsunami just because it wasn't what they personally wanted for Christmas? Isn't that awfully selfish, to only thank God for the blessings we like but to ignore all the other blessings He sends us (such as the tsunami)?


See, this is the main problem I have in regards to the Almighty. When I see all the horrible things going on in the world like child abuse, rape, murder, starving nations,Tsunamis, ect. I always want to know ""why why why". Why did these innocent people have to suffer? I was taught that God is a loving generous God, yet these things that happen dont sound like something a loving father would let happen. Perhaps its because I'm human, and by nature, we always want to assign blame to something. Who's responsible? Who could have prevented this? Its difficult for me to just accept that its God's will.....or that its a "blessing".

I may never understand.

tragedy n 1. an event resulting in great loss and misfortune.

Here's what I don't get: how can anybody who believes in an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God also believe in tragedy? If God is all-powerful then all things that occur are by God's will, and if God is all-good then all things the occur must be Good or else God wouldn't have allowed them to come about. So nothing that occurs can be classified as misfortune, by definition.

The tsunami disaster that hit southeast Asia has been a source of much religious speculation and chitter-chatter, and I just don't get that. If God is Good then the deaths and destruction were all Good, and we should be praising Him for bringing these blessings to us. How come God-believers thank God when He does things they like, but they won't thank him for this tsunami just because it wasn't what they personally wanted for Christmas? Isn't that awfully selfish, to only thank God for the blessings we like but to ignore all the other blessings He sends us (such as the tsunami)?

Im a dualist.

See, this is the main problem I have in regards to the Almighty. When I see all the horrible things going on in the world like child abuse, rape, murder, starving nations,Tsunamis, ect. I always want to know ""why why why". Why did these innocent people have to suffer? I was taught that God is a loving generous God, yet these things that happen dont sound like something a loving father would let happen. Perhaps its because I'm human, and by nature, we always want to assign blame to something. Who's responsible? Who could have prevented this? Its difficult for me to just accept that its God's will.....or that its a "blessing".

I may never understand.

For me I believe God's Revelation is a unbroken source of knowledge for humanity. He sends Messengers (Moses, Christ, Muhammed, today Baha'u'llah)to humankind every several hundred years or so. When the Messengers is alive He is rejected by the people and especially by those in religious authority because of common human frailities such as greed,ego etc. Because there is this rejection of God's new plan there are natural consquence just as if you are ill and ask a Dr for assistance and then ignore the Drs advice is it fair to blame the Dr. This is why there the human to human tragedies are so common place and so unnecessary.

Now the Tsunami was natural disaster that was caused by the earth doing what it will do. This is unfortunate but that is the world we live in. The earth is still active. In a sense it is alive. The earth moved and it will move again

For me I believe God's Revelation is a unbroken source of knowledge for humanity. He sends Messengers (Moses, Christ, Muhammed, today Baha'u'llah)to humankind every several hundred years or so. When the Messengers is alive He is rejected by the people and especially by those in religious authority because of common human frailities such as greed,ego etc. Because there is this rejection of God's new plan there are natural consquence just as if you are ill and ask a Dr for assistance and then ignore the Drs advice is it fair to blame the Dr. This is why there the human to human tragedies are so common place and so unnecessary.

Now the Tsunami was natural disaster that was caused by the earth doing what it will do. This is unfortunate but that is the world we live in. The earth is still active. In a sense it is alive. The earth moved and it will move again


Yeah but the earth wouldnt do its thing unless God allowed it to.(We're still talking about a being with unlimited powers.) My point is, if he is so loving, then why would he have made the earth able to move in such a way that could cause a disaster like this which in turn resulted in 150k + people dying and children being sold into sex slavery and all the other chaotic hell that happened. Those 9 month old babies certainly didnt reject him. So how does the suffering of helpless ones like that fall into this great plan.


omg- do I sound like an Atheist or Agnostic?? :eek:
*goes to consult Grave n Idle*

A quote from Wrath II seems to sum up this whole thing...

"And on the sixth day, God created man. By the seventh day, he'd realized his mistake.....and "BUGGER!" was the word."
As in ... buggery ...? As in ... "SODOMIZE!" (Of course from Sodom/Gamorrah fame ... having omniscience and all means "god" can coin phrases not even yet in vogue!) -
As in, maybe all these defrocked priests are just trying to follow "god"'s will, somehow? Preaching "the word"?
....?.....
:confused:

er, or how about we describe a situation that actually applies here?

you have a child, and that child has a bike. one day, as your child is riding the bike, you see a tidal wave heading down your street, about to kill your child. you could grab your kid and head into the safety of your home (we'll pretend your home is tidal-wave-proof, in this case), or you can allow your child to be killed.
....that, AND, WTF exactly is the learning curve here with the insurmountability of death? What is the lesson someone's supposed to get? A kid is supposed to learn in the imminence of the tidal wave that his/her own actions or ignorance ("sin") of "god" and it's will have resulted in its peril and near-immediate disintegration. I guess the moral here is not to be anywhere that water can get you. And for the earthquakes, not to be anywhere that faultlines can get you. And for people outside, not to be anywhere that any outside element including rads and UV rays can get you. Basically a good god-fearing life w/out consequence would have to be pretty f*cking sheltered indeed.
For the living, to learn requires living AND ADAPTING. It can't be consummated in death ESPECIALLY IF NO ONE IS ABLE TO REPENT AND LEARN BEFORE THAT DEATH!
Of course, one might bother to argue that these kinds of obvious secrets are revealed to you in that moment 'tween stuff and snuff. Someone probably will, but then again, how are they going to prove that exactly? Faith (gullibility)?

Yeah but the earth wouldnt do its thing unless God allowed it to.(We're still talking about a being with unlimited powers.) My point is, if he is so loving, then why would he have made the earth able to move in such a way that could cause a disaster like this which in turn resulted in 150k + people dying and children being sold into sex slavery and all the other chaotic hell that happened. Those 9 month old babies certainly didnt reject him. So how does the suffering of helpless ones like that fall into this great plan.


omg- do I sound like an Atheist or Agnostic?? :eek:
*goes to consult Grave n Idle*

Why does a mother give birth to a child that will have to go through a painful birthing process? Because it know that the pain is worth it. The loving God that created the world also says that the next world is wonderful beyond words.

Why does a mother give birth to a child that will have to go through a painful birthing process? Because it know that the pain is worth it. The loving God that created the world also says that the next world is wonderful beyond words.


Thats apples and oranges. A 6 year old getting raped and then killed is worth getting to the next world? And if so-why would they have to pay such a price?

Not sure how to include my original post here, doesn't make a lot of sense without it...

Originally Posted by Damnation and Hellfire
Umm...If you believe biblical accounts, may I remind you of Noah's flood, Soddom & Gomorrah...etc. If that isn't God forcing his perspective, I don't know what is.

Pre Crucifixtion, nice try though

Personal responsibilit posted that God does not force his perspective, I only illustrated that he does. No time frame was given - God is eternal, right? Unless you're suggesting that the Old Testament God is a different deity to God in the New Testament? :eek: One that doesn't nuke his Sims when he gets shitty with them...

Thats apples and oranges. A 6 year old getting raped and then killed is worth getting to the next world? And if so-why would they have to pay such a price?

I suppose what you want is a perfect world where nothing ever goes wrong and then you would say, "Now maybe I will believe in God." What God says now is something more like this,

13. O SON OF SPIRIT!
I created thee rich, why dost thou bring thyself down to poverty? Noble I made thee, wherewith dost thou abase thyself? Out of the essence of knowledge I gave thee being, why seekest thou enlightenment from anyone beside Me? Out of the clay of love I molded thee, how dost thou busy thyself with another? Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

Im a dualist.
thanks for sharing.

the imperfection of humanity is a huge cause of suffering in the world that is often whined about GOD letting happen. "why did god let that man shoot my child?"

that has nothing to do with the subject of this thread, nor have i made any such comments. please stick to replying to what actually has been said, rather than wasting time by replying to points that nobody is putting forward.

no it just means he has chosen not to interfere with the natural working of the universe he has created. i think that that is obvious to us all, god does not mess with the running of the universe.

obvious to us all? the EXISTENCE of God isn't obvious, let alone any such conclusions about how involved he is with the workings of the universe. at any rate, IF one accepts the ideas that God is all-powerful and all-good, then his choice to not prevent the disaster is an endorsement of the disaster, and therefore the disaster must (by definition) be Good.


because no religious text tells us to. if one believes in god and that he has revealed things to us in scripture, one relies on that scripture for guidance in such things.

and how does one know which religious text to believe? or whether any of them are correct? how can one possibly make such a massively important decision, without any facts whatsoever about the existence or nature of God? do you really think that "because my mommy and daddy told me Jesus is real" is an answer that carries any weight? do you really think that a puny human intellect will ever, in any way, be able to comprehend the will of an infinite and all-powerful Creator-being? are you really arrogant enough to think that you have the faintest idea whether there is a God or not?


as you know i DONT believe in god. but religious people are HUMAN. and human beings mourn the dead. (god made us that way)

BUH?! if you don't believe in God, why say "god made us that way?"


we dont stop being human because we become christians and believe in the resurrection of the dead. belief doesnt overcome human emotions.

yes, it does. i believe that my father is not currently dead, and therefore i am not mourning him. i believe that my grandfather is dead, and therefore i mourn for him. belief is, in fact, one of only two things that direct human emotion (the other one being physical stimuli), and as such it completely "overcomes" human emotions because it DEFINES them.

a person who really believed in an all-powerful and all-good God would not be mourning anything at this point, particularly if they also believed in an afterlife controlled by the all-powerful and all-good God. there would be nothing to mourn, nothing to be sad about, and no reason to feel loss of any kind. if somebody really believed in Heaven, then they would believe that all the people who deserve to be there will be there, and that they will one day be reunited with all the good people of the world in this paradise of an afterlife...there is no reason to be sad if you really believe that all the dead people who were good are now in paradise, and all those who are not in paradise were Bad (because otherwise the all-powerful and all-good God would have acted to prevent their unjust absence from paradise).


in the END after a period of mourning, we still miss the dead but a religious person who believes that their dead loved ones are in heaven, comes to a peace about it and looks forward to being reunited with them in the afterlife.
a religious person who really believed in the afterlife would never mourn the dead, nor would they view death as a bad thing in the slightest. they might have selfish feelings of wanting the dead to still be on Earth to provide them with services of some kind, but they would not mourn for the deads' sake. if i knew a loved one was in paradise i would not mourn for them, though i might wish i was there too, and if i really believed that i would join them in paradise then i wouldn't even mourn for my own "loss" because i wouldn't have lost them at all...we would just be temporarily seperated, and that's nothing to mourn.

Hey there,
Since I'm somewhat interested by these things and there has been talk about lucifer being the reason for evil I've always had a few questions about the whole devil issue.
1) What with God being omnipresent and therefore beyond time, surely he knows the result of every action that has and is going to happen. Surely he therefore knew in advance of what Lucifer would do and if he did, why in the heck did he create him?
2) Since God does know all that will happen how can he himself have free will?
3) I was under the impression that the choir of angels had no free will, if this is so then how exactly did Lucifer actually betray God in the first place?

er, or how about we describe a situation that actually applies here?

you have a child, and that child has a bike. one day, as your child is riding the bike, you see a tidal wave heading down your street, about to kill your child. you could grab your kid and head into the safety of your home (we'll pretend your home is tidal-wave-proof, in this case), or you can allow your child to be killed.
....that, AND, WTF exactly is the learning curve here with the insurmountability of death? What is the lesson someone's supposed to get? A kid is supposed to learn in the imminence of the tidal wave that his/her own actions or ignorance ("sin") of "god" and it's will have resulted in its peril and near-immediate disintegration. I guess the moral here is not to be anywhere that water can get you. And for the earthquakes, not to be anywhere that faultlines can get you. And for people outside, not to be anywhere that any outside element including rads and UV rays can get you. Basically a good god-fearing life w/out consequence would have to be pretty f*cking sheltered indeed.
For the living, to learn requires living AND ADAPTING. It can't be consummated in death ESPECIALLY IF NO ONE IS ABLE TO REPENT AND LEARN BEFORE THAT DEATH!
Of course, one might bother to argue that these kinds of obvious secrets are revealed to you in that moment 'tween stuff and snuff. Someone probably will, but then again, how are they going to prove that exactly? Faith (gullibility)?
The lesson exists independant of God. Although set in motion by God, the future has not yet happened (it does not exist), and therefore is not predestined. We, man, dictate the future through our thoughts and actions in the present. God's only role was creation. The moral of the story is not how not to get killed, or any physical actions, but what one does, how one reacts inside, in the face of immanent death. It could be as simple as a single fleeting thought, a prayer, that finds religion in the final moment. What good is the lesson if the child dies in the next instant? Such a question suggests that God exists to benefit man, and denies that there is an afterlife. This isn't the case for a follower of the Judao-Christian faiths. I'm not a Christian, but even I understand that much.

Re 'how can you allow your child to be killed,' God has no choice. God has no free will. Those who attribute free will and the ability of choice to God do so out of an attempt to understand him on human terms, to personify him. Even calling him "him" is the same process. It lifts man, or lowers God, so that they are on a level, so that they can be compared. It's a human thing to do.

Let's say God saved the child in the path of destruction. His interference is considered a limitation of free will, because if the child dies, it affects other people's lives. Family, rescue workers pulling the bodies from wreckage, people watching on TV; all these lives are affected by the circumstances, and the choices they would have made are affected. There are any number of things that could have happened to the child if God hadn't interfered: the child could have gone on to save someone else, or save a puppy, or could have caused someone else's death. Any number of variables are changed because God interfered. So what, you say; a man saving that child would also be interfering with the child's free will, while exercising his own free will. Yes!! it does. We humans limit each other's free will everyday, in every conceivable way. We limit what we can do, what we can say, where we can go. We make laws, rules, regulations, we have social mores, customs, traditions, we build streets, houses, borders. We live snug in a world full of limitations we have imposed on our, and each other's, free will. That's a human thing to do. If we attribute the same ability to God, we put human limitations on him.

Is God not all-powerful then? Who defines power? Shall we define it by human standards of what should and should be done, can and cannot be done? To do so is the same process of humanizing God to better understand him in human terms. Understandable that we do that, and forgivable, but not realistic.

Yes, you heard me. To suggest that an all-powerful God could affect changes in the world is to put a human limitation on him, because we understand power in human terms: as physical motion, as political influence, as emotional manipulation, etc. The physical human body, with its thoughts and feelings is how we interpret the world. Yet God is more often described as not being of this world --supernatural, so to speak. So why bind him to human considerations of power?

I'm sorry if this has already been mentioned and discussed, but this is a long thread, so I don't want to read the whole thing right now, but...

If omniscience means knowing everything, including the future, then does it not contradict omnipotence, because knowing the future requires that the future be certain while omnipotence would require the ability to make decisions based on will rather than situation? In other words, omniscience requires that the universe act as a Turing Engine where one state determines all others, whereas omnipotence requries that the universe act not as a Turing Engine, but instead be based on a combination of circumstances and will.

On the other hand, that only matters if God is considered to be infallible (which omniscience and omnipotence would seem to lead to), but if we change the wording a little to "all seeing" instead of "all knowing" then we could put a little noise into Gods vast information gathering and say that while God sees all he does not know all because there is some distortion by perception, and therefor while omniscience would contradict omnipotence in a perfect universe, the imperfections allow the two to coexist, though neither is absolute.

If that doesn't make any sense, please tell me and I'll try to make it a little more clear when I'm a bit less tired.