NationStates Jolt Archive


Who likes ... Ann Coulter

The Gongites
09-01-2005, 20:29
Seriously? Does anybody actually like this trailer trash looking hate monger? Does she have redeeming qualities (like how Michel Moore, although another slanderer has his heart in the right place) or she all just "Kill Muslims and take away women's suffrage! Gimmie a gun so I can kill me up a commie!"
CSW
09-01-2005, 20:30
Seriously? Does anybody actually like this trailer trash looking hate monger? Does she have redeeming qualities (like how Michel Moore, although another slanderer has his heart in the right place) or she all just "Kill Muslims and take away women's suffrage! Gimmie a gun so I can kill a commie!"
www.rightnation.us
Eutrusca
09-01-2005, 20:33
Michel Moore has his heart in the right place??? OMFG!!! That would be absolutely hilarious if it weren't so tragic! :(
PIcaRDMPCia
09-01-2005, 20:35
My old Algebra II teacher does, Ms. Erdle. Then again, she also only trusts Fox News. I used to like her till I learned about her politics; now I really don't. At all.
And yes, Michael Moore does have his heart in the right place; he's actually trying to help the US.
Vittos Ordination
09-01-2005, 20:35
Michel Moore has his heart in the right place??? OMFG!!! That would be absolutely hilarious if it weren't so tragic! :(

Have you watched Roger and Me or Bowling for Columbine?
The Gongites
09-01-2005, 20:37
Yeah, Moore's stuff may be probaganda and Bush bashing, but at least he is progessive and not regressive. Also, he admits it is propaganda. Coulter denies her statments later.
Andaluciae
09-01-2005, 20:38
Mou mean the 30,000 year old vampire who bathes in the blood of virgins?

Mind you, there's no evidence of her age, anywhere.
The Gongites
09-01-2005, 20:41
Mou mean the 30,000 year old vampire who bathes in the blood of virgins?

Mind you, there's no evidence of her age, anywhere.

Don't tell her that! she'll scream "I'm very beautiful and that's why I get away with my neo-NAZI insanity!" and deny it later!
Rubina
09-01-2005, 20:41
I would like Ann Coulter with a side of duct tape.

The difference between Michael Moore and Ann Coulter is that he actually believes in what he says (and hey, some of his gags are funny :)). Coulter is just riding the easy gravy train and would have been happy to be as left as she is right if it would have been as lucrative and made her as popular as she is.
Chahles
09-01-2005, 20:44
I may not like her but I see her as an important figure in American political commentary. Without folks like her, Michael Moore, Franken, et al. would just sit around, pass a joint and complain about Bush. How boring.
Reichskamphen
09-01-2005, 20:48
Typical liberal generalizations and misunderstandings. You have no clue.

I'm sure your heart is in the right place and you are a good person and all, but seriously...not a clue.
Ultra Cool People
09-01-2005, 20:49
Mou mean the 30,000 year old vampire who bathes in the blood of virgins?

Mind you, there's no evidence of her age, anywhere.

Or sex, Have you seen the size of his Adam's apple. You know what the say:

"If she's got an apple, she's packing a banana." :p
PIcaRDMPCia
09-01-2005, 20:50
Typical liberal generalizations and misunderstandings. You have no clue.

I'm sure your heart is in the right place and you are a good person and all, but seriously...not a clue.
And that's supposed to mean what? That Ann Coulter isn't a lying, hateful bitch? She is, dippy.
Chicken pi
09-01-2005, 20:52
I may not like her but I see her as an important figure in American political commentary. Without folks like her, Michael Moore, Franken, et al. would just sit around, pass a joint and complain about Bush. How boring.

In a way, you're right. If there were no right wing commentators, it would just be Michael Moore, Franken, etc passing a joint around and complaining about Bush.

That works if you divide political commentators based on liberal/conservative rather than sane/lunatic.

If there were no lunatic commentators, maybe it would just be political commentators from both sides (Michael Moore, Sean Hannity, etc) passing around a joint and having informed political discussion.


Or maybe not... :rolleyes:
Uzuum
09-01-2005, 20:56
Seriously? Does anybody actually like this trailer trash looking hate monger? Does she have redeeming qualities (like how Michel Moore, although another slanderer has his heart in the right place) or she all just "Kill Muslims and take away women's suffrage! Gimmie a gun so I can kill me up a commie!"


You forgot one thing, she thinks america is this big sleeping giant that can crush Canada if it just rolled over. . . This has lowered her knowledge of the world to "within america's borders".
Kryozerkia
09-01-2005, 20:56
Moore has good intentions, even if it is a form of propoganda. Coulter is a bitch.
Cobtavia
09-01-2005, 20:57
In a way, you're right. If there were no right wing commentators, it would just be Michael Moore, Franken, etc passing a joint around and complaining about Bush.

That works if you divide political commentators based on liberal/conservative rather than sane/lunatic.

If there were no lunatic commentators, maybe it would just be political commentators from both sides (Michael Moore, Sean Hannity, etc) passing around a joint and having informed political discussion.


Or maybe not... :rolleyes:

Sean Hannity an informed political commentator?
Chicken pi
09-01-2005, 21:03
Sean Hannity an informed political commentator?

I couldn't think of any other right wing commentator off the top of my head, apart from Rush Limbaugh. Given a choice between the two, I'd go for Hannity. :)


Anyway, the point is that he isn't a slavering lunatic.
Naldinn
09-01-2005, 21:03
She is living a capitalist's wet dream and, for that, I admire her. I think the same of Moore.

Seriously, they're both brilliant. What other roles could they have undertaken that would net them this much attention and money with the need for only minimal thought.

I find it doubtful that either of them actually believe the extremes they claim. It simply allows them to sell more books/movies than honesty. They're simply the current personifications of the media's sensationalism.
Eutrusca
09-01-2005, 21:12
Have you watched Roger and Me or Bowling for Columbine?
And encourage that corpulent hate-monger? NEVER!
Eutrusca
09-01-2005, 21:14
Moore has good intentions, even if it is a form of propoganda. Coulter is a bitch.
Moore's only "intentions" are the promotion of Moore regardless of what lies he has to propagate and people he has to hurt in order to accomplish it!
Chicken pi
09-01-2005, 21:15
And encourage that corpulent hate-monger? NEVER!

So basically you're absolutely certain that he's a corpulent hate-monger. Dammit, you've seen it on the news, it must be true.

But you've never seen either of his films, which you proclaim to be bullshit.
Cobtavia
09-01-2005, 21:17
Moore's only "intentions" are the promotion of Moore regardless of what lies he has to propagate and people he has to hurt in order to accomplish it!

if he hurts bush, hes cool with me. my only problem with moore is i think people who don't care to read or see anything by him and judge him anyway spread lies that might be detrimental to the left's causes
PIcaRDMPCia
09-01-2005, 21:19
Guys, don't bother with Eustruca; he's set in his ways.
Speaking of you, Eustruca, how's the grandkids? :)
Desius
09-01-2005, 21:19
Anne Coulter is a terrible writer, not because what she says is always wrong (not that she's always right) but because she cannot write calmly and logically. Every word that she scratches out on paper is filled with bile and rancor and so she doesn't even deserve attention.

For conservatives that are looking for a reasonable and intelligent voice, go read Bill Whittle's essays at www.ejectejecteject.com (http://www.ejectejecteject.com)
Eutrusca
09-01-2005, 21:20
So basically you're absolutely certain that he's a corpulent hate-monger. Dammit, you've seen it on the news, it must be true.

But you've never seen either of his films, which you proclaim to be bullshit.
I saw Farenheit 9/11 and that was MORE than sufficient for me to know exactly what Moore is.

I have talked with any number of people who have seen other ( or all ) of his films, most of whose opinions I trust. Contrary to popular belief, I do not rely on mass media for all my information. :)
Chahles
09-01-2005, 21:22
Meh, I should probabally defend myself after being told that I have "no clue."

You guys do realize that I was purposely over-generalizing, right?
If not, oh well. No reason to drag this out.
BrittBarrett
09-01-2005, 21:26
I read the first page of her new book "How to Talk to a Liberal, if you must." She says in it that all liberals do is insult conservatives and shit. But all she is doing is insulting liberals. Shes a hypocritical piece of right-wing dung.
Chicken pi
09-01-2005, 21:32
Guys, don't bother with Eustruca; he's set in his ways.
Speaking of you, Eustruca, how's the grandkids? :)

There's no need to be like that, PIcaRDMPCia.

Anyway, Eutrusca, the problem with Michael Moore is that he's a bit hit and miss. For example, in Stupid White Men, he makes a few good points and talks quite a lot of crap, too.

I've never seen Farenheit 9/11 and I'm not planning to. It was released shortly before the election, Michael Moore admitted that his aim was to persuade people to vote against Bush and I really don't expect a lot from it. I have an aversion to propaganda from either political affiliation, you see.

I think Bowling for Columbine is pretty good, though.
PIcaRDMPCia
09-01-2005, 21:35
There's no need to be like that, PIcaRDMPCia.

Anyway, Eutrusca, the problem with Michael Moore is that he's a bit hit and miss. For example, in Stupid White Men, he makes a few good points and talks quite a lot of crap, too.

I've never seen Farenheit 9/11 and I'm not planning to. It was released shortly before the election, Michael Moore admitted that his aim was to persuade people to vote against Bush and I really don't expect a lot from it. I have an aversion to propaganda from either political affiliation, you see.

I think Bowling for Columbine is pretty good, though.
What? I was being friendly. >_>
Bowling for Columbine, however, is probably the best one he's made, though when I saw Farenheit 9/11 in theaters the entire audience was applauding at the end, including myself and my dad.
Forseral
09-01-2005, 21:37
For those that bow down and kiss Michael Moore's feet and believe that he has good intentions and has a modicum of truth need ot go this site:

Bowling for Truth (http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/)

Read it and the information on it. Learn who M.M. deals with information and ONLY shows what he wants to. Which is not the truth.
Eutrusca
09-01-2005, 21:40
Guys, don't bother with Eustruca; he's set in his ways.
Speaking of you, Eustruca, how's the grandkids? :)
Well, when you know your "ways" are based on what has been proven to actually, like ... work ...! :D

My grandchildren are just fine, thank you for asking. All of those who are older than about two already have a much better grasp of matters than some I could name, but won't out of consideration for their feelings. :D
PIcaRDMPCia
09-01-2005, 21:40
For those that bow down and kiss Michael Moore's feet and believe that he has good intentions and has a modicum of truth need ot go this site:

Bowling for Truth (http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/)

Read it and the information on it. Learn who M.M. deals with information and ONLY shows what he wants to. Which is not the truth.
I've looked there before; basically, it's just a conservative site out to discredit any liberal; it has Ann Coulter as a major contributor, for crying out loud. That right there says it's worthless.
Vittos Ordination
09-01-2005, 21:40
There's no need to be like that, PIcaRDMPCia.

Anyway, Eutrusca, the problem with Michael Moore is that he's a bit hit and miss. For example, in Stupid White Men, he makes a few good points and talks quite a lot of crap, too.

I've never seen Farenheit 9/11 and I'm not planning to. It was released shortly before the election, Michael Moore admitted that his aim was to persuade people to vote against Bush and I really don't expect a lot from it. I have an aversion to propaganda from either political affiliation, you see.

I think Bowling for Columbine is pretty good, though.

I agree completely.

Eutrusca, you should check out Bowling for Columbine, although you may not agree it is very interesting. And Roger and Me is all about how the GM corporation shut down a factory and ruined the economy of his hometown, Flint, Michigan. Fahrenheit 9/11 put a sour taste in your mouth because you completely disagreed with it, and saw it as nothing but lies, but these two are very different.
Chicken pi
09-01-2005, 21:41
What? I was being friendly. >_>
Bowling for Columbine, however, is probably the best one he's made, though when I saw Farenheit 9/11 in theaters the entire audience was applauding at the end, including myself and my dad.

Sorry, was it kind of a private joke?
Eutrusca
09-01-2005, 21:48
I agree completely.

Eutrusca, you should check out Bowling for Columbine, although you may not agree it is very interesting. And Roger and Me is all about how the GM corporation shut down a factory and ruined the economy of his hometown, Flint, Michigan. Fahrenheit 9/11 put a sour taste in your mouth because you completely disagreed with it, and saw it as nothing but lies, but these two are very different.
You know what? Just because you asked me to, I will. Just keep in mind that my current mindset about the ignoble Mr. Moore will make it very difficult to view either film with a suitable degree of objectivity, but I promise to try. Fair enough? :)
Vittos Ordination
09-01-2005, 21:53
You know what? Just because you asked me to, I will. Just keep in mind that my current mindset about the ignoble Mr. Moore will make it very difficult to view either film with a suitable degree of objectivity, but I promise to try. Fair enough? :)

More than fair. I admit that Fahrenheit 9/11 was sketchy, but these are much more of a "fair" look as to what the problem is.

Just try to remember that in Bowling for Columbine, he is examining our culture and our facination on both violence and guns, and that he does not lay true blame for it. I read that website posted above and it seemed to think that Moore was blaming the NRA for gun violence when he was simply using them to display the fanaticism people have for guns in this country.
Schrandtopia
09-01-2005, 21:53
who likes ann coulter?

<chorus>I like ann coulter</chorus>

she lays it out like it is, mind you - sometimes she crosses the line, but when she dosn't she's a pretty damn good collumnist
Vittos Ordination
09-01-2005, 21:55
who likes ann coulter?

<chorus>I like ann coulter</chorus>

she lays it out like it is, mind you - sometimes she crosses the line, but when she dosn't she's a pretty damn good collumnist

Yes, she is just full of useful facts and information. She never shows her bias.
Chicken pi
09-01-2005, 21:59
For those that bow down and kiss Michael Moore's feet and believe that he has good intentions and has a modicum of truth need ot go this site:

Bowling for Truth (http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/)

Read it and the information on it. Learn who M.M. deals with information and ONLY shows what he wants to. Which is not the truth.

In places that web site is just as biased as Michael Moore himself. I recommend that you look at the "Violence in other countries" article. Then read through it again carefully. The writer seems to have made clever use of the distinction between firearm homicides and regular homicides.
Celtlund
09-01-2005, 21:59
Seriously? Does anybody actually like this trailer trash looking hate monger? Does she have redeeming qualities (like how Michel Moore, although another slanderer has his heart in the right place) or she all just "Kill Muslims and take away women's suffrage! Gimmie a gun so I can kill me up a commie!"

Seriously, does anyone actually like this pseudo-intellectual hate monger James Carville seriously? Does he have any redeeming qualities or is he just all "lock up all the conservatives in the asylum where they belong and let all the liberals run amok." Does he have any redeeming qualities like Colin, Condi, Arnold, or even Zel?

Ann rocks.
Celtlund
09-01-2005, 22:01
Yes, she is just full of useful facts and information. She never shows her bias.

Unlike others, she admits her bias.
Calricstan
09-01-2005, 22:02
The writing I've seen from her has been variations on the theme of "Liberals are all stupid and treasonous. And they smell". I'm pretty sure that she's an intelligent woman, in private, but the sentiment behind her columns is that of an unusually opinionated fourteen-year-old. I'm also pretty sure that that's entirely deliberate.

It would be interesting to have a proper debate with her to see how she really thinks.
PIcaRDMPCia
09-01-2005, 22:03
Seriously, does anyone actually like this pseudo-intellectual hate monger James Carville seriously? Does he have any redeeming qualities or is he just all "lock up all the conservatives in the asylum where they belong and let all the liberals run amok." Does he have any redeeming qualities like Colin, Condi, Arnold, or even Zel?

Ann rocks.
James Carville is not a hate mongerer nor does he hate conservatives. He's actually a very decent person, unless you can prove otherwise. Which we can do with Ann Coulter.
Chicken pi
09-01-2005, 22:03
Unlike others, she admits her bias.

Could you provide some examples of people who don't admit their bias and some examples of Coulter admitting that she is biased?
Celtlund
09-01-2005, 22:11
Could you provide some examples of people who don't admit their bias and some examples of Coulter admitting that she is biased?

Carville, Combs, Moore never admit to being bias. Ann admited it more than once on Hanity and Combs.
Celtlund
09-01-2005, 22:14
James Carville is not a hate mongerer nor does he hate conservatives. He's actually a very decent person, unless you can prove otherwise. Which we can do with Ann Coulter.

Did you ever watch Crossfire on CNN when he was on?
PIcaRDMPCia
09-01-2005, 22:18
Did you ever watch Crossfire on CNN when he was on?
Yes. Yes I did. And he was a very charming and intelligent individual who never stooped to the hateful insults that Coulter does.
Celtlund
09-01-2005, 22:39
Yes. Yes I did. And he was a very charming and intelligent individual who never stooped to the hateful insults that Coulter does.

Amazing how two people can watch the same show or event and come up with such divergent opinions. It must have something to do with our own bias. What is great is that we can have this conversation.
Siljhouettes
09-01-2005, 23:04
I find it doubtful that either of them actually believe the extremes they claim. It simply allows them to sell more books/movies than honesty. They're simply the current personifications of the media's sensationalism.
Moore is definitely a lefty, but he is not extreme. His positions are believable. Coulter, on the other hand will just say anything no matter how crazy if it will get attention. I don't think Moore has ever called for a mass genocide of conservatives.

And encourage that corpulent hate-monger? NEVER!
There is always the option of piracy...

But seriously, if you're going to bash him you should hear what he has to say first.
Commando2
09-01-2005, 23:42
I'm a far-right conservative and I'll tell you Ann Coulter is a nutcase. I like Hannity, Limbaugh, and Savage, but Coulter goes over the top. She is a racist who needs to be quiet.
Eutrusca
09-01-2005, 23:44
I'm a far-right conservative and I'll tell you Ann Coulter is a nutcase. I like Hannity, Limbaugh, and Savage, but Coulter goes over the top. She is a racist who needs to be quiet.
"Racist?" Hmm. She is a bit over the top, but "racist?"
PIcaRDMPCia
09-01-2005, 23:53
"Racist?" Hmm. She is a bit over the top, but "racist?"
I think what he means is that it's like racism, in that she views all liberals as complete scum and advocates genocide for them.
Eutrusca
09-01-2005, 23:54
I think what he means is that it's like racism, in that she views all liberals as complete scum and advocates genocide for them.
LOL! Well, since some of my best friends are liberals ... !
Commando2
10-01-2005, 00:04
I called her a racist for 2 reasons. One is she said she wanted to kill all liberals. I am conservative and don't care for liberal beliefs, but you can't friggin kill someone over a political opinion! Also she said we should go into the ME and force all the muslims to convert to christianity, and if they don't we kill them. I'm Christian too but I know Jesus is probably sickened by hearing someone say that. If you force someone to convert by threatening them with death your not only a bigot/ass but the person you are forcing to convert won't even believe, they'll only convert to save their own skin.
CSW
10-01-2005, 00:04
"Racist?" Hmm. She is a bit over the top, but "racist?"
See the "if we had killed your leaders and converted you to christianity, you'd be opening presents right now" comments.
Cable Television
10-01-2005, 01:48
Do I like Ann Coulter?

Well I'd Like to bend her over and.....

Oh wait I can't post that on NS.

Lets just say that by the time I was finished she'd be screaming
"Oh God, Oh God! Tax and spend.... Tax and Spend!" :D
Celtlund
10-01-2005, 02:31
Moore is definitely a lefty, but he is not extreme.

People who are not extreme do no have to rely on disortions and partial truths to make their point. :(
Celtlund
10-01-2005, 02:35
I'm a far-right conservative and I'll tell you Ann Coulter is a nutcase. I like Hannity, Limbaugh, and Savage, but Coulter goes over the top. She is a racist who needs to be quiet.

Where on your scale is Bill O'Rielly? I'm a concertative that puts Ann right beside Rush but am having serious doubts where O'Rielly stands.
Celtlund
10-01-2005, 02:38
I called her a racist for 2 reasons. One is she said she wanted to kill all liberals. I am conservative and don't care for liberal beliefs, but you can't friggin kill someone over a political opinion! Also she said we should go into the ME and force all the muslims to convert to christianity, and if they don't we kill them. I'm Christian too but I know Jesus is probably sickened by hearing someone say that. If you force someone to convert by threatening them with death your not only a bigot/ass but the person you are forcing to convert won't even believe, they'll only convert to save their own skin.

Are you sure you are not taking her quotes out of context?
Vittos Ordination
10-01-2005, 02:48
People who are not extreme do no have to rely on disortions and partial truths to make their point. :(

90% of political pundits and politicians rely on distortions and partial truths, so that is definitely not an extreme characteristic.
Commando2
10-01-2005, 03:45
Are you sure you are not taking her quotes out of context?

How can you take what she said out of context? And as far as O'reilly, I like him and think he has good political sense, but that whole phone sex thing was disgusting considering he's a married man.
Mentholyptus
10-01-2005, 03:59
Ann Coulter...(shudders)

Anyways, I'm pretty sure she's completely insane. She argues that women shouldn't have the right to vote, but that there should be no regulations on firearms. When's the last time you heard a woman argue against women's suffrage? Or, for that matter, an African-American arguing for the repeal of the Civil Rights Act? It's the same idea...

She's very bizarre, and, quite frankly, she scares me shitless. I mean her politics. And the high likelihood that she would viciously assault me if we ever talked politics. Come to think of it, she might shoot me...anyways, she's both psychotic and evil.
Salchicho
10-01-2005, 04:02
Seriously? Does anybody actually like this trailer trash looking hate monger?
Are you really calling someone trailer trash, then calling them a hate monger?

Yeah, Moore's stuff may be probaganda and Bush bashing, but at least he is progessive and not regressive. Also, he admits it is propaganda. Coulter denies her statments later.
Moore stuff is lies cleverly packaged to make weak minded people believe it. Coulter never denies her statements, even the most inflammatory ones.

Seems to me you are the embodiment of everything you lamabast Coulter for. Maybe you should go sit in a corner and do some reflecting.
Irawana Japan
10-01-2005, 04:11
I am convinced without a doubt anne coulter is a green lefty, who has built a career on sarcasm. Each time she prints a new book with the intent of "Okay, no one could possibly believe I'm serious about this one!"
Irawana Japan
10-01-2005, 04:12
Moore stuff is lies cleverly packaged to make weak minded people believe it. Coulter never denies her statements, even the most inflammatory ones.

Or her most fallacious ones
Dineen
10-01-2005, 08:06
Ann Coulter? She provides the universe with some necessary fantasy. She may have another redeeming qualiy that I'm not aware of.
Celtlund
12-01-2005, 19:58
Moore is definitely a lefty, but he is not extreme. His positions are believable.

:gundge: :gundge: ROFL
John Browning
12-01-2005, 20:11
Yeah, Moore's stuff may be probaganda and Bush bashing, but at least he is progessive and not regressive. Also, he admits it is propaganda. Coulter denies her statments later.

Moore admits that his films are comedy, and could care less if they are inaccurate, or if he's forged or altered film footage and presents it as fact.

I don't find Coulter to be a "nice person", but her book "Slander" made far more factual reading than any Moore movie.
Celtlund
14-01-2005, 14:58
Moore admits that his films are comedy, and could care less if they are inaccurate, or if he's forged or altered film footage and presents it as fact.

If you are going to make a film and pass it off as a documentary then it must be accurate and without forged or out of context film. If it is inaccurate, forged, out of context and presented as fact it is propaganda. So why doesn't Moore admit he is a propagandist? :confused:
John Browning
14-01-2005, 15:01
If you are going to make a film and pass it off as a documentary then it must be accurate and without forged or out of context film. If it is inaccurate, forged, out of context and presented as fact it is propaganda. So why doesn't Moore admit he is a propagandist? :confused:

Why don't the people that believe his films are factual say that he is a propagandist? Because they don't care.

Why don't the people who buy everything Ann Coulter says say that she is a propagandist? Because they don't care.

BTW, if she could keep from talking, I'd have a round in the sack with her. I'd have to sneak out afterwards, because I certainly wouldn't want to be around later for that uncomfortable moment when people actually have to talk.
FreeSweden
14-01-2005, 18:04
Dear americans you have great problems if you need to defend Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly and other wackos in your media. Or if Michael Moore is the best you've got to withstand the right-wing madness. I'm glad there's someone like him although he is not an angel himself. He is just so damn funny because there are so many dangerous dumbasses to ridicule in your country. In fact we all need a Michael Moore in our countries because stupidity does not know any borders.

// Wacko me :fluffle:
Celtlund
18-01-2005, 17:04
In fact we all need a Michael Moore in our countries because stupidity does not know any borders.

// Wacko me :fluffle:

If you want him, you can have him. In fact, I'll donate $10.00 toward his one way ticket. :D
West - Europa
18-01-2005, 20:20
Psh. You're just pissed that someone of the opposite side is using the same weapons against you.



:gundge: :gundge: ROFL

...

Were you born like that or did you have an accident?