NationStates Jolt Archive

Before I get started on this opinion I want anyone who reads it to bear in mind that the thoughts contained in it are mine and mine alone, I may generalise (as is my wont), I may make assumptions, I may even go off on a tangent but ultimately I am just making my own beliefs and thoughts on this subject known.

Is there life after death?

Of course there isn’t!
Death is a pretty final condition, once you have drawn, and released, your last breath then that’s it! Time up, game over.

A lot of people like to believe that there is more to life than just…….well…..life! it may be that the life they have lived has been pretty much dull and uneventful, they may have had a hard existence and convince themselves that what comes next will be easier, they may have lived a life full of regrets, achievements negligible, aims not met, dreams unfulfilled, so they look to an afterlife to make sense of their failings in this life.

Now dreaming about a better life after you die may be a comfort to you but all you are doing is avoiding the problems you face now, in this life, in the vain hope that you will be a billionaire Adonis with a thirteen inch tongue and the ability to breath through your ears in the next life, all you are really doing is filing away your present life in the pending tray with no real intention of doing anything about it.

Mediums.

It still astounds me, that in this day and age there are so many poor deluded souls who hang on a mediums every word, believe me, it’s the mediums who have hung on your every word, who have perfected the art of reading body language and who are leading you all up the garden path with generalities, false claims and clever mind games to make you think they can see into your future, contact your long dead loved ones or be possessed by your old granny in order that she can tell you where you have gone wrong and how wonderful it is in heaven.

There is not a medium in the world that has a genuine gift. They are all kidding you on. That’s not to say they are all out to fleece you of your hard earned earnings (Though most of them are) some of them are as genuine as you or I as people wanting to help each other, but they are still ultimately misguided and are passing that onto the people who consult them and beg their advice in order to go from one day to the next.

All mediums deal in ambiguity, many of them deal with an audience rather than a one on one consultation and they always have the upper hand. Most of their clients come to them, that means that they already believe that the medium has some sort of power, all the medium has to do then is go through a carefully rehearsed routine of questions and answers, sometimes there is a lot of touching, holding hands this gives the client a feeling of bonding but always the client will unwittingly give the medium the answers before he or she has even asked the questions.

If a medium were ever to actually reach “the other side” and be able to converse with dead people then we would soon know about it, it would be so well documented on film that it would leave no doubt but it will never happen!
How can I be so sure?
Well, like I said at the start of this, this is all my own thoughts on the subject and if I am sure about any of my thoughts and idea’s then I am doubly sure about my thoughts on the after life.
I actually think that listening to mediums can be dangerous, they make the believers live apart from reality, decisions are made based on the latest consultation, some people live their whole adult lives around advice and information given to them by these people.

The power of suggestion.

Suggestion of the masses manifests itself in hysteria, witness the mass self flagellation of some religious groups, or the mass screaming and crying of teenage girls at a pop concert.
The life after death question falls under the same heading.
Just because someone suggests that there is an after life doesn’t make it so.

Dreaming of a life after death is just a cop out from making the most of your life now.
Religion is a man made invention so that rules out a heaven (or hell).

My advice would be to steer clear of mediums, take stock of the life you are leading now and if you are dissatisfied with it then take steps to change it now! You won’t get another chance; once you’re finished in this world the only thing left to remind us of you will be your achievements in the here and now.
If you want to live on after your death you will have to be content to live on in the minds and hearts of those who are still living who were somehow touched in a positive way by you before you died.

Personally, I'm not willing to put all my eggs in one basket like that.

Personally, I'm not willing to put all my eggs in one basket like that.
Same here.

Personally, I'm not willing to put all my eggs in one basket like that.

Thats cool, whatever makes you happy :)

Blob---thats a very nice story you wrote there...but its all in your head.

Thank god for opinions.

Thank god for opinions.

That's what you say...

I may be agnostic, but even I believe there must be something after this life, some form of afterlife, whatever it may be.

According to a commerical I just saw for a crappy looking michael keaton movie there is. I guess all those black and white specks on the static on your tv are just the souls of your departed ancestors.

According to a commerical I just saw for a crappy looking michael keaton movie there is. I guess all those black and white specks on the static on your tv are just the souls of your departed ancestors.

I thought they looked familiar! :eek:

Batman? :rolleyes:

Batman? :rolleyes:
White Noise

I am am still happy to die not knowing whether heaven exists or not, if it does, that's cool, if it doesn't, that's okay, I don't mind.

Yeah, while dead is pretty much your final destination, faith is needed to give us so much more... I, myself, am an ateïst, but I fully respect the choice of religion. Perhaps when I'm 80 years old, I'll start praying to the gods myself, who knows.

Life - No
Existence - Yes, in some form or another.

By definition: no. Could there be consciousness after death? Maybe, but think it's highly improbable.

What's life after death worth if you lose your memory of everything you've done and seen on earth? As a "spirit" i mean...

"Is there life after death?"

I probably have about 10 or 15 years left, if I'm lucky. When I find out, I'll let you know. :D

By definition: no. Could there be consciousness after death? Maybe, but think it's highly improbable.

Highly impobable that we retain our identities, yes. More likely we become amalgamated into the greater consciousness.

What's life after death worth if you lose your memory of everything you've done and seen on earth? As a "spirit" i mean...

Probably nothing, maybe everything.

Highly impobable that we retain our identities, yes. More likely we become amalgamated into the greater consciousness.
And then what's the point? Our bodies are amalgamated into the greater body of the earth.

Wow this stuff is really deep and moving for a forum wou should write a book or something and by the way what do you do since you believe in making your life worth living. What have you done to better the lives of others.

:rolleyes:

By the way we need a buddist or something to defend his religion and fast... :D

Is there life after death?
I have to admit, I haven't read most of your post, and I haven't read any other post in this thread. But I see that as just a silly question. Of course there is life after death! Decomposers, which form an entire section of the trophic tree (the other two are producers and consumers), which are devoted purely to that. Dead tissue makes a very good fertiliser. And even better as food for animals. Not to mention that even if something dies, there is still life after. My personal beliefs as a physiolatrist are that when I die, my flesh will be used to feed future life. Bacteria, protists, fungi, and animals will all feed on my flesh. And then new life will spawn from them. I can not think of anything greater. I do not acknowledge a "soul" outside of the physical body. What we call a soul can be completely understood using neurology. Granted, there is still much left to be learned, but we can see where we will be led.

Yes, there is life after death. I believe that Jesus Christ came down from heaven and died so that we may all join him in heaven when we die.

By the way we need a buddist or something to defend his religion and fast... :D

There's nothing wrong with the buddhist way of thinking.

Yes, there is life after death. I believe that Jesus Christ came down from heaven and died so that we may all join him in heaven when we die.

How much of what one is do you consider to be present in the soul/spirit?

well thats an oxymoran if i'm not mistaken. i dunno wat comes after death but it has been shown that after a person die he weights 2 pounds less, people think its the soul leaving the body. i dunno if its true or not but at least i can say "I'm not fat I just got alot of soul"

well thats an oxymoran if i'm not mistaken. i dunno wat comes after death but it has been shown that after a person die he weights 2 pounds less, people think its the soul leaving the body. i dunno if its true or not but at least i can say "I'm not fat I just got alot of soul"

Really? I hadn't heard that. I would have thought, though, that the soul would not weigh anything as it is not in any way 'physical'. But hey, may-be.

What we really need is someone to kill themselves, then post in this thread afterwards thereby proving an afterlife. (bagsy not it)

How much of what one is do you consider to be present in the soul/spirit?

I think that we will have all our memories, identities, and feelings once we die, but not our earthly bodies. We will be the same person though. As to what we look like, I can't say. I think that God will probably let you pick how you want to look from any point in your life.

well thats an oxymoran if i'm not mistaken. i dunno wat comes after death but it has been shown that after a person die he weights 2 pounds less, people think its the soul leaving the body. i dunno if its true or not but at least i can say "I'm not fat I just got alot of soul"
I think you're thinking of the 21 gram (< 1oz) weight loss idea behind the film "21 grams". Not a result that's been verified.
More here (http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp)

I think that we will have all our memories, identities, and feelings once we die memory,identity and feeling is what I am trying to rid my 'self" of, or at least I want ot stop identifying or confusing what I am with those properties...

I think that we will have all our memories, identities, and feelings once we die, but not our earthly bodies. We will be the same person though. As to what we look like, I can't say. I think that God will probably let you pick how you want to look from any point in your life.

All that we are bar bodies - fair enough.

I think we can rule out certain things though, as part of the physical being.
We loose our brain, but not necessarily our mind. Therefore we lose animal instincts, our base human natures, sex drive, etc. We lose commincation, but gain understanding. We loose our senses, but gain a new sense. We are left with our very inner core. What exactly that is, I don't know.

What exactly that is, I don't know.

Vast Emptiness

I think you're thinking of the 21 gram (< 1oz) weight loss idea behind the film "21 grams". Not a result that's been verified.
More here (http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp)
Whoa, dude, I thought that movie was about cocaine!
Damn, my friends have no idea what the hell they're talking about.

Vast Emptiness

At least it's something useful. "We work with being, but non-being is what we use." Tao de Ching

At least it's something useful. "We work with being, but non-being is what we use." Tao de Ching

don't you just love working with those empty categories? :D

Afriad not mang. Check out Penn & Teller's: Bullshit, they've done an episode on Mediums and their incesant BSing.

don't you just love working with those empty categories? :D

Oh yeah. :D

Thank god for opinions.

Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one. There are two types of assholes. Perfect ones and ones like me who have hemorrhoids. :p

Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one. There are two types of assholes. Perfect ones and ones like me who have hemorrhoids. :p

That reminds me of a saying in the IT industry: Shit happens, and it always comes out of some asshole.

Note - spiritual side talking, not the Atheist.

No, but who says we ever experience death?

I mean, couldn't we just have like an exponental(? rooted?) curve, and the closer we get to the instant of death, the slower time goes for us? So we never can die, we just get... mentant like abilities?
w000ah.

Note - spiritual side talking, not the Atheist.

No, but who says we ever experience death?

I mean, couldn't we just have like an exponental(? rooted?) curve, and the closer we get to the instant of death, the slower time goes for us? So we never can die, we just get... mentant like abilities?
w000ah.
Or enter into a permanent dream

Note - spiritual side talking, not the Atheist.

No, but who says we ever experience death?

I mean, couldn't we just have like an exponental(? rooted?) curve, and the closer we get to the instant of death, the slower time goes for us? So we never can die, we just get... mentant like abilities?
w000ah.

I agree maybe u never dye but u do.....heres my theory.............
i think its more that ur life starts over, that ur last breath is ur first one. like a rerun that u never know about. maybe this is done to let us take new paths in life. I remember one day when i was 5 i woke up and i said i'm alive maybe in another life i died and that was a new being but i just didn't know it (spiritual side).

Reader's Digest ran an article about this once.

There was once a woman who had to go under surgery, and the surgery required her to be killed temporarily, as in all brain and bodily functions stopping. After all this was done and she woke back up, she claimed that her essence came out of the body and watched the operation, which she described near perfectly. There was no way that it was a hallucination, as the brain was at that time incapable of having one.

I feel this is evidence enough for the existence of an afterlife.

Your mind is a riverbed. Your life is the water flowing through it. The currents are your thoughts and actions.

The bed dictates the currents and the currents in turn can shape the bed. When you die, the water ceases to flow and the bed dries up, quickly crumbling in as little as a few hours. Even if the water were to flow again, it would spill everywhere and maintain no meaningful current. Your essence would be lost.

Existence is fragile and death is the end. It's scary. It's depressing. It's real. Believe it.

Reader's Digest ran an article about this once.

There was once a woman who had to go under surgery, and the surgery required her to be killed temporarily, as in all brain and bodily functions stopping. After all this was done and she woke back up, she claimed that her essence came out of the body and watched the operation, which she described near perfectly. There was no way that it was a hallucination, as the brain was at that time incapable of having one.

I feel this is evidence enough for the existence of an afterlife.

Or her brain was picking up signals from the closed-circuit television camera.

Either of which would be amazing. *nod*

Your mind is a riverbed. Your life is the water flowing through it. The currents are your thoughts and actions.

The bed dictates the currents and the currents in turn can shape the bed. When you die, the water ceases to flow and the bed dries up, quickly crumbling in as little as a few hours. Even if the water were to flow again, it would spill everywhere and maintain no meaningful current. Your essence would be lost.

Existence is fragile and death is the end. It's scary. It's depressing. It's real. Believe it.

Not totally lost...the preconditions that brought you into being are still there -unformed and uncompounded

Reader's Digest ran an article about this once.

There was once a woman who had to go under surgery, and the surgery required her to be killed temporarily, as in all brain and bodily functions stopping. After all this was done and she woke back up, she claimed that her essence came out of the body and watched the operation, which she described near perfectly. There was no way that it was a hallucination, as the brain was at that time incapable of having one.

I feel this is evidence enough for the existence of an afterlife.

I find it highly unlikely that this is true, unless the woman was not clinically "brain-dead" for less than 5 minutes...in wich brain damage sets in.

If she wasnt, then there would still be chimcal reactions taking place wich might send euphoric signals to the brain, and create the hallucination, wich many people claim to have experienced.
Most of them were "dead" for less than five minutes.

Not totally lost...the preconditions that brought you into being are still there -unformed and uncompounded

Very true. It's what people call the miracle of life. Coming to grips with that fact was one of the few things that kept me as an atheist away from clinical depression. But that doesn't change the fact that YOU, that is to say your conscious mind, the self-aware chemical reaction, will never start again where it left off.

Very true. It's what people call the miracle of life. Coming to grips with that fact was one of the few things that kept me as an atheist away from clinical depression. But that doesn't change the fact that YOU, that is to say your conscious mind, the self-aware chemical reaction, will never start again where it left off.

There we have the problem of continuity...a self aware chemical reaction that is in a constant state of change --- where is the static "YOU" in the first place?

Is there life after death?I would rather not give my definative answer until I've died :=p

I have no idea if there is an afterlife (I think there is) but I think everyone here can agree with me that they sure hope there is one!

I have no idea if there is an afterlife (I think there is) but I think everyone here can agree with me that they sure hope there is one!
Depends on what happens in it.
If it's guaranteed it will be nice and happy, then I say yes.
If it's based on morality, than I say yes most likely.
If it's based on religion, that gets a no from me. Most religions advise to burn me, and that's no fun.
I mean, I am masochistic, but there's a point where it stops being fun...
Ya know?
:p

I find that thinking there is no life after death is a bit depressing..

I find that thinking there is no life after death is a bit depressing..

:( I just dicovered this:

DEATH:
1.The event of dying or departure from life
2.The permanent end of all life functions in an organism or part of an organism
3.The time at which life ends; continuing until dead
4.The absence of life or state of being dead

:eek: Doesn't look good, fellas.

I find that thinking there is no life after death is a bit depressing..

There is plenty of life after death...just not yours

Existence is fragile and death is the end. It's scary. It's depressing. It's real. Believe it.
I don't find it depressing. All one needs to do is embrace it. I am only 15, and with no intention of dying anytime soon, but I am certainly not afraid of it. If I were to be infected with Ebola Zaïre right now (90% mortality rate, no cure), I would be regretful that I couldn't live a more full life, but I would have no fear of oblivion.

"Is there life after death?"


Ask me later. :D

I'm still not ENTIRELY convinced that there is life BEFORE death...

"There is plenty of life after death...just not yours."
^
Pure genius.

I'm still not ENTIRELY convinced that there is life BEFORE death...
Then what are biologists studying?

I'm just glad I wasn't the only person who thought 21 grams was about cocaine.

Then what are biologists studying?

See - they got to you, too... :)

Depends on how you look at it: "life" as an individual's participation in the life-force, or "life" as the collective life-force. Obviously the latter will go on. If the individual identifies his or her "life" only as participation in the life-force, then life ceases rather abruptly. If, however, they choose to recognize their life is a small part of a greater whole, and that the whole continues, then there is no end of it. No beginning and no ending.

Depends on how you look at it: "life" as an individual's participation in the life-force, or "life" as the collective life-force. Obviously the latter will go on. If the individual identifies his or her "life" only as participation in the life-force, then life ceases rather abruptly. If, however, they choose to recognize their life is a small part of a greater whole, and that the whole continues, then there is no end of it. No beginning and no ending.

This is the problem of identity, we want to see ourselves as something static, something that has some sort of permanence --- but we are anything but. So we attach ourselves to this view or rather beleif that we are these independent individual entities and we are somehow separate from the whole --- thats the mistake. Whereas when we recognize that we are part of the greater whole, that we are physically the universe expending some energy and that the greater whole resides in us just as much as we reside in it, and its is without beginning nor end then we can recognize that we all possess what religious people call eternal life.

This is the problem of identity, we want to see ourselves as something static, something that has some sort of permanence --- but we are anything but. So we attach ourselves to this view or rather beleif that we are these independent individual entities and we are somehow separate from the whole --- thats the mistake. Whereas when we recognize that we are part of the greater whole, that we are physically the universe expending some energy and that the greater whole resides in us just as much as we reside in it, and its is without beginning nor end then we can recognize that we all possess what religious people call eternal life.
I don't think it's a mistake --that would imply that one view was more "correct" than the other. It's just an alternative way of looking at things, an attitude that can inform a life.

It's all about perspectives.

I don't think it's a mistake --that would imply that one view was more "correct" than the other. It's just an alternative way of looking at things, an attitude that can inform a life.

It's all about perspectives.

Maybe not "a mistake" more like an unskilled impression, you have to know what to look for.

For you got to understand death...

Here's a good article:

http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/CardiopulmonarySupport.html

Here's another good article in TEXT form:


The Ends of Life?
by Rand Simberg

The following article is reprinted from Tech Central Station (July 30, 2002) with permission of the author and publisher.

Suppose that a doctor is present at a drowning. The patient isn't breathing and there's no pulse, but she was pulled out only a couple minutes after going under. But instead of issuing CPR and attempting to revive her, he simply declares, "She's dead," and covers her, to be delivered to the morgue.

Or what if, when confronted by a patient with a femur shattered by a rifle bullet, instead of performing reconstructive surgery, he simply saws off the leg at the hip, with unwashed hands and, unable to staunch the bleeding, the unfortunate soul exsanguinates on the operating table, and again, is shipped off to the undertaker?

Does anyone doubt that, right now, in this country, those physicians would later be sued for malpractice, if not charged with manslaughter? Yet in the not-too-recent past, that would have been exactly the accepted medical response in both cases.
Defining Death

The popular and conventional view of death is that it's a discrete condition; now you're living -- now you're dead. The weary declaration of the sawbones is just a formality -- we all know from the movies that when the bad guy has been shot down violently, screaming or groaning, or breathed his last, he's dead, or when the heroine gently closes her eyes, she's gone to a better place, never to return.

But real life, and death, is a bit more complicated than that. It is not an objective, scientific condition, but a legal one, declared by a doctor or coroner. It's like baseball. A ball thrown over the plate is not a ball or a strike until the umpire calls it.

The reality is that life and death are not binary states – from one to the other is a gradual transition. Rather than an instantaneous transformation from living to resting eternally, the body gradually shuts the plant doors and turns out the lights, one by one. Cells die individually, and the rhythm of life slows steadily to a halt.

But even that halt can be restarted with defibrillators and enthusiastic inflation of lungs with oxygen. In fact, modern hypothermic surgical techniques take a patient into what most would think a state of death (no heartbeat, flat-lined electro-encephalogram, no respiration) and then return them to life. In fact, during the properly performed cryonic suspension, such resuscitation is done (after a legal declaration of death), though under deep anaesthesia, to allow proper circulation of the cryoprotectant fluids throughout the body and particularly to the brain.

There's no point at which we can objectively and scientifically say, "now the patient is dead -- there is no return from this state," because as we understand more about human physiology, and experience more instances of extreme conditions of human experiences, we discover that a condition we once thought was beyond hope can routinely be recovered to a full and vibrant existence.

Death is thus not an absolute, but a relative state, and appropriate medical treatment is a function of current medical knowledge and available resources. What constituted more-than-sufficient grounds for declaration of death in the past might today mean the use of heroic, or even routine, medical procedures for resuscitation. Even today, someone who suffers a massive cardiac infarction in the remote jungles of Bolivia might be declared dead, because no means is readily available to treat him, whereas the same patient a couple blocks from Cedars-Sinai in Beverly Hills might be transported to the cardiac intensive-care unit, and live many years more.
The Cryonic Challenge

This is why the concept of cryonics – which recently has gotten much publicity due to the Ted Williams case – is so troubling to the medical establishment.

Cryonicists believe, not without some justification, that no one is truly dead until his body is completely beyond recovery and repair. This doesn't occur until a person undergoes "information death," that is, a loss of all the information that constituted the physical and personality characteristics of the deceased. (For example, allowing the body to rot in a coffin for a few days or months, or burning it and scattering the ashes – which are the currently most-popular methods of treating bodies – would inevitably result in this.) Anything short of that is not death – it is just a temporary state of extreme disability until the technology can catch up to repair and revive, as it has (for example) in the simple case of drowning and electrocution victims, who can be salvaged via CPR.

In the cryonicists' view, if the information needed to repair the body to its former vibrancy remains and can be preserved, and there exists a technology in the future that can perform such a repair, then how can a body preserved in such a manner be said to be irreversibly dead? And how can we, given our current limited knowledge about the nature of life, consciousness and identity, be smart enough to know how much information is required for such a reanimation, or that what is salvaged and preserved by present cryonics techniques is insufficient? Perhaps we can't.

This may be the reason that the members of the modern-day medical and cryobiological establishment are so resistant to the concept of cryonic suspension. If they were to accept the premise that some future technology might be adequate to reanimate patients who have been cryosuspended upon legal declaration of death, then any patient that they allow to be burned or buried is effectively being euthanized, by established medical protocols.

Accepting it would mean, in turn, that they have two choices. They must suspend all patients who are beyond their ability to heal, using the best available techniques, in hopes that their successors will be more capable. Alternately, they must accept the fact that they are (now deliberately) euthanizing people by the masses. Ignorance, hubris or both now prompt them to believe that no one in the future will be capable of doing what they cannot.

It is ironic that the very medical establishment that has done so much throughout human history to push back and extend the limits of life is not only unwilling to put patients in a possible ambulance to the future, but to even engage in serious discussion of the issue, instead falling back on trite and inapplicable soundbites about "turning a hamburger back into a cow." But perhaps it's little wonder. After all, accepting the cryonicists' viewpoint would leave them little choice except to either embrace it and act on it, at potentially great expense, or, in one possible view, to consider themselves part of a new holocaust in the extinguishing of human life, dwarfing any in the twentieth century. If they want to admit that they're destroying people's potential futures, and are willing to live with that as an extension of the current philosophy of not providing life-extending measures to all, fine, but they should be forced to argue it honestly and justify it, rather than simply saying that cryonicists are crazy and gullible, and that what happens to a body after legal declaration of death doesn't matter, which is what most do. We've spent much of the past thirty years in a serious national debate about when human life begins. Maybe it's time to start another about when it ends.

I don't find it depressing. All one needs to do is embrace it. I am only 15, and with no intention of dying anytime soon, but I am certainly not afraid of it. If I were to be infected with Ebola Zaïre right now (90% mortality rate, no cure), I would be regretful that I couldn't live a more full life, but I would have no fear of oblivion.

Well, resistance is futile. :p

Anything short of that is not death – it is just a temporary state of extreme disability :D

For you got to understand death...

Here's a good article:

http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/CardiopulmonarySupport.html

Here's another good article in TEXT form:

Unfortunately, the article is wishful thinking... no clear point at which a patient can be declared dead?

Well - the onset of degeneration of the brain, which is irreversible, must pretty much count as dead. When you have a body that cannot reanimate... well, isn't that what 'dead' is?

And certainly, when things start growing on you, or eating you... that should probably count as dead, too - I think.

What I think the article was trying to say, is that we are scientifically able to overcome many of the physical 'dead' elements, and may be able to overcome more, with further scientific investigation.

But - unless they can find a way to turn the soup that used to be a functioning brain, back into a working machine (with intact data) - there is always going to be a limit to how far 'dead' starts.

memory,identity and feeling is what I am trying to rid my 'self" of, or at least I want ot stop identifying or confusing what I am with those properties...
That does sound very Buddhist. One of the lessons of Buddhism is to learn to be without "self". It is not necessary to rid yourself of memories, identity, feelings to find self; in fact, quite impossible; just to recognize that they exist only as symbols of self, created by the conscious mind, in the mind. Then you can quiet them.

I'm just glad I wasn't the only person who thought 21 grams was about cocaine.
Yeah!
High-five!

There we have the problem of continuity...a self aware chemical reaction that is in a constant state of change --- where is the static "YOU" in the first place?
The subjective perspective of the conscious awareness looking out at the world through the faculty of the mind; that is consistently you.

Despite the fact it's most likely death is oblivion, I have a personal belief that somthing must happen... Life can't be completely pointless, and I refuse to believe otherwise.

Despite the fact it's most likely death is oblivion, I have a personal belief that somthing must happen... Life can't be completely pointless, and I refuse to believe otherwise.

I have never understood that viewpoint.

If there is no eternal life, then life is completely pointless?

Maybe it's just me, but my life has already HAD point, and I can only foresee it getting more validated.

My eventual death will make no difference to that, I suspect.

I just won't be there to appreciate it.

Being agnostic, I take a somewhat fatalistic approach to the question - I don't care and I'll find out soon enough. I refuse to dedicate my life to the attempt of bettering my afterlife. It's like Pascal's Wager: If there is an afterlife, then I have given away my earthly life in return for a pleasant afterlife. If there is no afterlife, I'm pwned and have wasted all the life that I had. As it is now, if there is an afterlife, it may or may not be pleasant for me, and if there is not, I've lived this life to the fullest and have missed nothing. ;)

It's hard for me to imagine what nothingness would be like, simply because as far as I can remember I always have been and I've known no other way of existing. I would like to think we all go to some spectacular halcyon after death, but logically I'd say death is comparable to a flame dieing out. It certainly shouldn't be feared because that would interfere with you enjoying your current existance. I say just carpe diem and worry about death when you're dead.

Just inserting my 2 cents :)

Despite the fact it's most likely death is oblivion, I have a personal belief that somthing must happen... Life can't be completely pointless, and I refuse to believe otherwise.


Life is never pointless.

You can make so many differences in life (the here and now), you can pass on wisdom and knowledge to your offspring, love to your partner, family and kids, you can invent a world changing invention, write a book all these things are the way we live on after death...in the hearts and minds of those we leave behind.

Is there life after death?

Of course there isn’t!
Death is a pretty final condition, once you have drawn, and released, your last breath then that’s it! Time up, game over.

Life cannot slay. Life is not slain!
Never the spirit was born; the spirit shall cease to be never;
Never was time it was not; End and Beginning are dreams!
Birthless and deathless and changeless remaineth the spirit for
ever;
Death hath not touched it at all, dead though the house of it
seems!

(Hindu, Bhagavad Gita (Edwin Arnold tr))

Say, 'The angel of death shall take you away, he who is given charge of you; then unto your Lord shall ye be returned.

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 32 - Adoration)

Yeah, we all die. That's all.

Keith Richards died in 1968, and he still walks around.

Keith Richards died in 1968, and he still walks around.

Now that is funny.

I have learned what happens after death. Here is the answer:

http://www.museums.org.za/bio/images/enb7/enb07470x_pineapple.jpg

There are no eternal rewards at the end of the line. There is no continuation of your existence as a living person after your death. If you are compassionate, spare what time and money you feel you should toward making life easier for those less fortunate, for they will recieve no other chance at happiness than in this lifetime. Do what you can to live a happy and successful life, for there is no changing it or making amends once you are finished; and if you have not, now is the best possible time to start. You will not be judged at the end of your life except by those you leave behind, so leave them with good memories of you if you wish to be remembered well. The memories people have of you, afterall, are the only sort of immortality you can recieve.

I have no need of an afterlife and never have. I would rather not have such a thing, for once my life is ended, I want only the lasting peace of oblivion. I do not need a pre-specified purpose for my life, for, given that some of the most wonderful things in the world are without specific purpose, I think that I can deny the importance of specific purpose. I do not attempt to imagine what the end of perception would be like, for the end of perception has no color, texture, or other sensation to be imagined.

I think that my outlook is a more constructive one.

People should spend more time worring about whether or not there is life before death.

The subjective perspective of the conscious awareness looking out at the world through the faculty of the mind; that is consistently you.
If you mean by that the effort expended is consistently the entity we call "self" then I would to agree and not agree. But if you mean the subjective perspective is the consistently the entity we call "self" I have to disagree. If you mean that the pure and total awareness itself (which goes beyond any relation between dubject-object) is consistently the entity we call "self" I would agree.

um im agnostic on this subject and i wish to stay that way...

Hell is bogus.

This is my view: We are living in a body. This body has desires. We live for desire. When we die, we are rid of all desires. When we desire nothing, you enter a state of complete bliss. This is called "heaven"

Some buddhists aquire spiritual enlightenment, and they do this by eliminating all their desires. But they are still living... this is like heaven on earth.

But, no matter how good or bad you are in this life, you are going to be in a state of bliss, until you are brought back into life by someone else's desires.

Hell is something made up so that people would join the church out of fear. There is no hell. Don't be manipulated.

Hell is completely made up by the humans to cause fear and to gain power.

I just dont know. And to be honest, i dont care. Life is good right now, i fully embrace it and once i am dead i will be in the know. Or just plain dead, in which case i wont care more than now.

Originally Posted by Willamena
The subjective perspective of the conscious awareness looking out at the world through the faculty of the mind; that is consistently you.
If you mean by that the effort expended is consistently the entity we call "self" then I would to agree and not agree. But if you mean the subjective perspective is consistently the entity we call "self" I have to disagree. If you mean that the pure and total awareness itself (which goes beyond any relation between dubject-object) is consistently the entity we call "self" I would agree.
:eek: Effort? It takes some sort of effort to be conscious? Ah, I think I see what you mean: self as defined by the output from self?

It seems that we will have to agree to disagree, as your second sentence above is a copy of what I'd said. ;-) If you take away the abstract "entity" it is identical with the third idea.

I don't see self as an entity; I see it as inseparable from the body. A friend of mne said it well, just yesterday. He said, we are all made of star-stuff, all composed of the same elements that make up the universe. In this sense, we are all part of a consistent whole, and yet... when we look around us at other humans, we can know their make-up but we cannot know their minds. This is what distinguishes self. It's all in how you look at things --literally.

It's hard for me to imagine what nothingness would be like, simply because as far as I can remember I always have been and I've known no other way of existing. I would like to think we all go to some spectacular halcyon after death, but logically I'd say death is comparable to a flame dieing out. It certainly shouldn't be feared because that would interfere with you enjoying your current existance. I say just carpe diem and worry about death when you're dead.

Just inserting my 2 cents :)

Think of nothingness as the state you were in before you were conceived

Hell is bogus.

This is my view: We are living in a body. This body has desires. We live for desire. When we die, we are rid of all desires. When we desire nothing, you enter a state of complete bliss. This is called "heaven"

Some buddhists aquire spiritual enlightenment, and they do this by eliminating all their desires. But they are still living... this is like heaven on earth.

But, no matter how good or bad you are in this life, you are going to be in a state of bliss, until you are brought back into life by someone else's desires.

Hell is something made up so that people would join the church out of fear. There is no hell. Don't be manipulated.

Hell is completely made up by the humans to cause fear and to gain power.

I concur.

WISHFUL THINKING!!!!!!!

Face it. When you die you die. Ok yes its hard to believe and get to grips with, but its real. Your mind no longer works, you have no sense of awareness. Face it, nothing happens. Yes we'd all love to think we carry on, but the harsh reality is once your gone, you really are no longer alive, no longer anywhere..

Think of nothingness as the state you were in before you were conceived

That's a good point. How many billions (imperial) of years have we been non-existant before conception - assuming we are only the biological, nothing after - it's phenomenal that we cannot comprehend that state of which we have such vast experience. Or can we?

WISHFUL THINKING!!!!!!!

Face it. When you die you die. Ok yes its hard to believe and get to grips with, but its real. Your mind no longer works, you have no sense of awareness. Face it, nothing happens. Yes we'd all love to think we carry on, but the harsh reality is once your gone, you really are no longer alive, no longer anywhere..

I feel we as we know our individual selves will cease to exist. We will join the whole and live on in our offspring. This is oblivion, total understanding.

Life - No
Existence - Yes, in some form or another.

Yes you will go on to exist in one for or another.. How does adding much needed elements to the soil sound? *mmmmmmmmmm*...makes that afterlife sound tastier every second!

Yes you will go on to exist in one for or another.. How does adding much needed elements to the soil sound? *mmmmmmmmmm*...makes that afterlife sound tastier every second!

Indeed it does. :p

Hoho...I prefer to take the quantum concept of time as an ideal model. After all with that one we all exist forever...Provided I exist now, (solipsism is a beautiful thing..)...I exist forever, have existed forever and will exist forever. Well that's if you you look at the quantum theory from the subjective perspective of the linear model of time anyway.

...then again it does have the disadvantage that there are an infinite number of infinitely similar number of "mes" that, from an objective perspective, are just as entitled to the subjective opinion of being 'me' as I am....but I'M READY FOR IT!

Minerals in the soil is good enough for me anyhow! I'm ready to give a bit back to nature for all the damage my humble human self has caused.

I'll kill a willing volunteer and weigh them before and afterwards then report back, in the name of Science!
(...do you think that would stand up in court? "Science made me do it"?) ;)

Hoho...I prefer to take the quantum concept of time as an ideal model. After all with that one we all exist forever...Provided I exist now, (solipsism is a beautiful thing..)...I exist forever, have existed forever and will exist forever. Well that's if you you look at the quantum theory from the subjective perspective of the linear model of time anyway.

...then again it does have the disadvantage that there are an infinite number of infinitely similar number of "mes" that, from an objective perspective, are just as entitled to the subjective opinion of being 'me' as I am....but I'M READY FOR IT!

Minerals in the soil is good enough for me anyhow! I'm ready to give a bit back to nature for all the damage my humble human self has caused.

I think the question should be: Is there death after life?

I'll kill a willing volunteer and weigh them before and afterwards then report back, in the name of Science!
(...do you think that would stand up in court? "Science made me do it"?) ;)

Bah best to avoid the courts for these things ;)! I suggest experimentation on worms...that might amount to mass wormicide though...and considering data acquired from humans would be more reliable...well...go for it! :-P Just make sure the guy gives at least 24 hours on tape of how he is happy to die for the purposes of science/religion and to help answer an age-old question...

Lol...I can imagine the defence in court..."HE DIED FOR THE BEST INTERESTS OF SCIENCE YOUR HONOUR!"...

and afterwards the media might even twist it in your favour: "The verdict was clearly a demonstration of scientism in the judiciary!!! - this man was acting for the benefit of science!"

I think the question should be: Is there death after life?

Well I can tell you one thing for sure: life certainly seems to end with death!

But death after life... Let's hope not, because I would endorse the prospects of heaven much more heavily if there was no death involved: or at least a serious reduction in the questions directed at and the mysteries surrounding death..

Or from a more scientific perspective...well...when the minerals from your decaying body are absorbed by the living microscopic bacteria // worms // etc. which will later die...there sure is death after life. Scientific death just gets more and more fun by the minute, (*tasty!*)

Well I can tell you one thing for sure: life certainly seems to end with death!

But death after life... Let's hope not, because I would endorse the prospects of heaven much more heavily if there was no death involved: or at least a serious reduction in the questions directed at and the mysteries surrounding death..

Or from a more scientific perspective...well...when the minerals from your decaying body are absorbed by the living microscopic bacteria // worms // etc. which will later die...there sure is death after life. Scientific death just gets more and more fun by the minute, (*tasty!*)

Hey, good point. We just keep on dying and dying. The senseless killing is... it's... well... bugger. :gundge:

Hey, good point. We just keep on dying and dying. The senseless killing is... it's... well... bugger. :gundge:

Hey look at it this way... You can feel 100% liberated and have no reason to fear death if you look at it the scientific way. With the right legalities you can ensure your body goes into the best place to nurture future life. Unfortunately this may be as pig feed :\ But who said science was perfect ?!?!?! :-D