NationStates Jolt Archive

Just recently in india the untouchables in alot of refugee camps where forced out . By this I believe the caste system is horrible .

Just recently in india the untouchables in alot of refugee camps where forced out . By this I believe the caste system is horrible .
Then again the system is several thousand years older then you. Who are you to judge it?

Just recently in india the untouchables in alot of refugee camps where forced out . By this I believe the caste system is horrible .

Would you say that about any other social hierarchy?

Damnit, why shouldn't a person question social structures, regardless of said establishments' age.

There's something inherently wrong in castes determined by birth, not ability.

Damnit, why shouldn't a person question social structures, regardless of said establishments' age.

There's something inherently wrong in castes determined by birth, not ability.

Here, here.

Evil that is old is no less evil.

The Hindu caste system is racist, from what i understand...those who are lighter-skinned are the favored ones. Besides, the Hindus practice arranged marriage, which is one of the greatest crimes known to man...

Damnit, why shouldn't a person question social structures, regardless of said establishments' age.

There's something inherently wrong in castes determined by birth, not ability.
Ah well...eeeh...cause it's non of his business? Who died to make him or you supreme judge on right and wrong of something as old as the caste system?

Ah well...eeeh...cause it's non of his business? Who died to make him or you supreme judge on right and wrong of something as old as the caste system?
Im guessing the same dude that died and made the brahmins think they could treat the untouchables like shit.Shit anti-semitisms thousands of years old as well, should we refuse to condemn that cos its "tradition"?

Because its part of their religion. Their belief is those born into that caste are being set down the reincarnation ladder, as they fulfill the duties of the caste they will be reborn into a higher caste. Not my cup of tea, i dont really buy it but its their right to believe it.

Other religions do a lot of things that people find repugnant.

Polygamy
Circumsision
Animal sacrifice


There are worse things in the world to worry about.

Shit anti-semitisms thousands of years old as well, should we refuse to condemn that cos its "tradition"?
Weeeelll..you could also try to see the otherside. I mean the Jews must have done something, other then beeing Jews, which realy ticked people off.
Jews. Possing off folks globally since 3200 BC. :D

Weeeelll..you could also try to see the otherside. I mean the Jews must have done something, other then beeing Jews, which realy ticked people off.
Jews. Possing off folks globally since 3200 BC. :D
Bah your just pissed off that they wouldnt buy your lederhosen

Bah your just pissed off that they wouldnt buy your lederhosen
Actually they did. But those cheap bastards refused to buy the matching Seppel hat.

Ah well...eeeh...cause it's non of his business? Who died to make him or you supreme judge on right and wrong of something as old as the caste system?

If that is really your attitude then you have no business telling him to mind his own business, do you? I mean who died and made you supreme judge of what opinions people may or may not give?

Sucks when circular logic bites you in the ass, doesn't it?

Personally I think the Caste system should be abolished, but I'm not the one in charge.

Personally I think the Caste system should be abolished, but I'm not the one in charge.
Discrimination on the grounds of caste is illegal in india, the law is just never enforced.

Because its part of their religion. Their belief is those born into that caste are being set down the reincarnation ladder, as they fulfill the duties of the caste they will be reborn into a higher caste. Not my cup of tea, i dont really buy it but its their right to believe it.

Other religions do a lot of things that people find repugnant.

Polygamy
Circumsision
Animal sacrifice


There are worse things in the world to worry about.
I don't rate casting refugees out, to probably die of disease or starvation, on the same level as any of these!!!

Weeeelll..you could also try to see the otherside. I mean the Jews must have done something, other then beeing Jews, which realy ticked people off.
Jews. Possing off folks globally since 3200 BC. :D
People "poss" me off in these forums all the time, doesn't make me "antiforumetic". Or decide to place you all in ovens, as the Nazis did to the Jews!!

lets clear up a couple of points.

CASTE SYSTEM
1) it originally started based upon ability not birth. People codified it by birth later on. I'm guessing because those in priveledged castes wanted to "protect" their kids(who MIGHT be idiots).
2) Their is a genetic component to ability
3) It is tecnically illegal to discriminate because of caste. In reality, people are people and laws dont change hearts and minds. As the economy here is developing(I am an American Indian living in India now), caste is becoming less and less of an issue. Divorce rates are also going up but that is another issue.
4) I think an ex president of India was an "untouchable".
5) I'm not even sure what caste I am(I know I am not a brahmin though). I am pretty sure I am either the one that is supposed to be kings/leaders or the one that is supposed to be dirt farmers. Ive never bothered to narrow it further and it I cant remember it ever coming up in conversation except as the butt of a joke.

ARRANGED MARRIAGE

You people that call this a crime are extremely ignorant(I originally was going to say morons but i want to be generous). For the most part an arranged marriage is no differant than your friends parents bringing over their child so the kids can meet and maybe get married. In extreme cases families dont give their kids a choice, but they are extreme cases.

The dating thing doesnt really happen in many families(things are changing) till after the engagement, but this still leaves room to stop the marriage if the kids are incompatable.

Of course there is pressure from family/relatives to accept the marriage, but it is in no ones interest to force incompatable people together.

In some societies this "arranged marriage" takes the form of both sides parents making sure the kids wind up at the same functions since they are kids so that they will have noticed each other by the time they come of marriagable age. Hardly a shotgun wedding.

People do all sorts of things, and yes there will be cases or groups of people that do bizarre things. Kinda foolish to judge a system on extremes. You also might want to keep in mind that whatever system is going on in India is extremely effective(from a biological viewpoint). We must be doing something right with regard to child birth/rearing(the goal of marriage) given that we have 1.2 BILLION people here.

lets clear up a couple of points.

CASTE SYSTEM
1) it originally started based upon ability not birth. People codified it by birth later on. I'm guessing because those in priveledged castes wanted to "protect" their kids(who MIGHT be idiots).
2) Their is a genetic component to ability
3) It is tecnically illegal to discriminate because of caste. In reality, people are people and laws dont change hearts and minds. As the economy here is developing(I am an American Indian living in India now), caste is becoming less and less of an issue. Divorce rates are also going up but that is another issue.
4) I think an ex president of India was an "untouchable".
5) I'm not even sure what caste I am(I know I am not a brahmin though). I am pretty sure I am either the one that is supposed to be kings/leaders or the one that is supposed to be dirt farmers. Ive never bothered to narrow it further and it I cant remember it ever coming up in conversation except as the butt of a joke.

ARRANGED MARRIAGE

You people that call this a crime are extremely ignorant(I originally was going to say morons but i want to be generous). For the most part an arranged marriage is no differant than your friends parents bringing over their child so the kids can meet and maybe get married. In extreme cases families dont give their kids a choice, but they are extreme cases.

The dating thing doesnt really happen in many families(things are changing) till after the engagement, but this still leaves room to stop the marriage if the kids are incompatable.

Of course there is pressure from family/relatives to accept the marriage, but it is in no ones interest to force incompatable people together.

In some societies this "arranged marriage" takes the form of both sides parents making sure the kids wind up at the same functions since they are kids so that they will have noticed each other by the time they come of marriagable age. Hardly a shotgun wedding.

People do all sorts of things, and yes there will be cases or groups of people that do bizarre things. Kinda foolish to judge a system on extremes. You also might want to keep in mind that whatever system is going on in India is extremely effective(from a biological viewpoint). We must be doing something right with regard to child birth/rearing(the goal of marriage) given that we have 1.2 BILLION people here.
Actually, it sounds a lot less risky for the kids, as their prospective mates are pre-screened, and a lot less likely to be some wacko who wants them just for a one-night stand, or date-rape, or worse.

Discrimination on the grounds of caste is illegal in india, the law is just never enforced.

It's not just ignored, it's blatently trampled on. If memory serves, it was only a couple of years ago that they passed a law which makes it illegal for dalits to convert to any other religion.

It's not just ignored, it's blatently trampled on. If memory serves, it was only a couple of years ago that they passed a law which makes it illegal for dalits to convert to any other religion.

there is no law that bans a Dalit from changing their religion, what it does ban is a group converting people through "force, allurement, or fraudulent means."

Geez, that sounds just horrible to me. All those evil laws condeming people to make up their own minds.

Well, I only learned about the caste system from one perspective, but the way that I did, it didn't seem like anyone had any objections. And besides, the elite of America are considered untouchable, and they have it pretty damn good if you ask me.

Not saying that it's good or fair, just that it's their custom and they seem to have little problems with it--because, being in the Hindu religion, they believe in reincarnation, which means if they did a good job in their past caste, they will get a better caste next time around.

Ah well...eeeh...cause it's non of his business? Who died to make him or you supreme judge on right and wrong of something as old as the caste system?

Look, I care about what is close to me. It's the people I'm familiar with who I'd try to protect from things that will crucially harm them. Hindu's caste system doesn't touch them, so I'm not inclined to go over there and try to make it change. But I recognize the suppressive nature of it.

Most of humanity would now say an enforced caste system is too sad for its adherents. It's a system which supports debasement of people who deserve an opportunity to grow. This way it defies what most of us in free countries consider a good quality, the ability and desire to advance beyond the limits we had before.

It does not matter the age of thing. All social structures must evolve as humanity does. Please consider Goddess paganism, the first religion. It has existed longer than homo sapiens and has always been generally stable. When its believers were persecuted, its practices were changed to guard their survival. The same has occurred with Christianity and Judaism, as well. These are vast commons now in a time when faith can be chosen by every person, not simply inherited by default. People choose them because there is some recognized spiritual good in them.

Whereas birth castes exist for the efficiency of a group. The talents a person develops, the experiences they learn from, the things they enjoy doing don't matter. If they're of a lower caste, however advanced their spirit or mind become, they aren't allowed to make full use of them because they can't advance socially. They can't be fulfilled. That's why it's wrong, why it's evil, why it contradicts the evolution of humanity.

lets clear up a couple of points.

CASTE SYSTEM
1) it originally started based upon ability not birth. People codified it by birth later on. I'm guessing because those in priveledged castes wanted to "protect" their kids(who MIGHT be idiots).
2) Their is a genetic component to ability
3) It is tecnically illegal to discriminate because of caste. In reality, people are people and laws dont change hearts and minds. As the economy here is developing(I am an American Indian living in India now), caste is becoming less and less of an issue. Divorce rates are also going up but that is another issue.
4) I think an ex president of India was an "untouchable".
5) I'm not even sure what caste I am(I know I am not a brahmin though). I am pretty sure I am either the one that is supposed to be kings/leaders or the one that is supposed to be dirt farmers. Ive never bothered to narrow it further and it I cant remember it ever coming up in conversation except as the butt of a joke.



Sorry, but the one about genetic ability is worthless. You don't know at birth what anyone will become. Fact is, a person's choice determines more than genetics. If not, there wouldn't be many genetic differences at all, since most couples choose each other. As long as people have had different interests, there's been no guarantee that their lives would be no more than a result of DNA.

So no, it just doesn't hold up.

Though, your statements do make me think about some things. I don't claim to know the system perfectly, I can only make my opinion on what I've learned. And what I knew about it before was rather harsh. My opinion's been softened, but I still see no good in birth castes.

Then again the system is several thousand years older then you. Who are you to judge it?
Seems to me like he's a compassionate, rational person.

Ah well...eeeh...cause it's non of his business? Who died to make him or you supreme judge on right and wrong of something as old as the caste system?
You've convinced me. I'm going to adopt all the old ways. Slavery, human sacrifice, polygamy, It all sounds good.

You've convinced me. I'm going to adopt all the old ways. Slavery, human sacrifice, polygamy, It all sounds good.
Good boy.

And you think our society doesn't have a caste system? Moral outrage against Hinduism for this caste system is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Besides the basis of Hinduism is reincarnation until one can escape into nibbana. So if you are coming from that belief point, your current life means little. You act in a way that will set you up for a move up the ladder in your next lifetime. And who are you to dismiss an entire religion and its beliefs?

Sorry, apparently Rogue Angelica beat me to it. It bears repeating however.

Actually, it sounds a lot less risky for the kids, as their prospective mates are pre-screened, and a lot less likely to be some wacko who wants them just for a one-night stand, or date-rape, or worse.

The trouble is parents will be using their children for family politics by marrying them off in such a way to boost family status. Women in India fare the worst under arranged marriages and get stuck with partners who aren't suitable (for anyone) at times.