NationStates Jolt Archive

Hacking is always given a bad name. What most of the "human race" thinks of when they hear the word "hacker" or "hacking" is actually something different, something called a "cracker". A cracker is a malicious criminal. Someone who hacks into a computer, a network, or anything else for the sole purpose of destroying or stealing something on/inside that area.

A hacker, however, is not a cracker. Even without causing harm, some feel the hacking is bad or malicious. That's your opinion, your perogative. I won't discriminate or hate you for your opinion because its an opinion.

A cracker destroys the area. A hacker usually just browses. Maybe a hacker thinks all information should be free. Maybe they do it for fun. Who knows, besides the hacker.

There's a fine line between the what is true and what you are told is true. Such is the case with a hacker. You think they cause harm, you think they steal information. Maybe you don't, but most of you do. Such, as explained before, is not the case.

Even Dictionary.com has messed up in defining a hacker:

1) One who is proficient at using or programming a computer; a computer buff.
2) One who uses programming skills to gain illegal access to a computer network or file.


The first definition may be the case in most people, but the second one is actually the definition of a cracker. Virus programs tell you to be careful of hackers. Even the media "mislabels" hackers.

Is it a conspiracy? No. Don't jump to conclusions. Somewhere along the road of the "internet age", or as some refer to it as "Generation X", hacking and cracking were "fused" to be interpreted as always malicious, always hazardous. "Don't feed the hacker!"

Yeah, hackers get used to it. But, it is still wrong to assume or label someone. How would you like someone to label you as poor because your car is old, or make fun of you because your Jewish? No, I'm not saying religious persecution is the same as mislabeling. But in some ways it is.

Some say "Project Ultra" invented hacking. If you don't know what Ultra is, pick up a World War II book at the library. But, such is also another misrepresentation...sort of.

The very possibility of building digital computers was given to the world in the form of an esoteric paper in a mathematics journal in 1936, when the young author Alan Mathison Turing submitted and got his "paper" published. Nobody realized that a single essay would give birth to digital machines capable of mimicking or even surpassing the human race.

Ah, but do we know who actually began the "Revolution"? Nobody. There never was and most likely never will be a "digital revolution" by hackers, crackers, and their tools of choice alike.


1) One who makes unauthorized use of a computer, especially to tamper with data or programs.

That is one of the several definitions you get if you look up the definition of a "cracker". They did something right! Good job, dictionary.com! How reliable...maybe you should mend the definition of a hacker, now.

Modern times have lead to modern anarchy. People rebel against the government everyday. But do they get arrested? Not in America, its called free speach. A bullshit term. How come somebody can cover a woman in red paint and label her an animal killer, but if a hacker....say, "h4x0rz" into a network to look up some information, he gets arrested and put in jail for a ten year minimum for "computer crime."

What a beautiful system. Even in the United Kingdom there are laws against this "practice of free speach." But why? I have no idea, and I doubt many of you do, either.

What I'm saying is, throughout the ages, hackers have been judged, labeled, and prosecuted. As have many others, and I'm not saying any different.

I'm curious of your views of hacking. I'm curious to see how many of you know that the very computer you are using now, this very internet, was designed by hackers "inspired" by that young man back in 1936. These men and women do this as a job, and some do it for recreation.


Yes, I am a criminal. My crime is that of curiosity. My crime is that of judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like. My crime is that of outsmarting you, something that you will never forgive me for.


Ah, inspirational. Too bad it's from The Hacker's Manifesto. Want the full version? I bet some of you have never even heard of such a manifesto, or you don't even want to.

Granted, the manifesto isn't so inspirational. It isn't "great" or "marvelous". But it gives some well insight into the fact of a hacker's thoughts, his life.


Another one got caught today, it's all over the papers. "Teenager arrested in computer crime scandal", "Hacker arrested after bank tampering"...

Damn Kids. They're all alike.

But did you, in your three piece psychology and 1950's technobrain ever take a look behind the eyes of a hacker? Did you ever wonder what made him tick, what forces shaped him, what may have molded him?

I am a hacker, enter my world...

Mine is a world that begins with school. I've listened to the teacher explain for the fifteenth time how to reduce a fraction. I understand it. "No, Mrs Smith, I didn't show my work. I did it in my head..."

Damn kid. Probably copied it. They're all alike.

I made a discovery today. I found a computer. Wait a second, this is cool. It does what I want it to do. If it makes a mistake, it's because I screwed up. Not because it doesn't like me...

or feels threatened by me...

or thinks I'm a smart ass...

or doesn't like teaching and shouldn't be here...

Damn kid. All he does is play games. They're all alike.

And then it happened... A door opened to a world... Rushing through the phone line like heroin through an addict's veins, an electronic pulse is sent out, a refuge from the day to day incompetencies is sought... A board is found.

"This is it... This is where I belong..."

I know everyone here... Even if I've never met them, never talked to them, may never hear from them again... I know you all...

Damn kid. Tying up the phone line again. They're all alike...

You bet your ass we're all alike... We've been spoon fed baby food at school when we hungered for steak... The bits of meat that you did let slip through were pre chewed and tasteless. We've been dominated by sadists, or ignored by the apathetic. The few that had something to teach found us willing pupils, but those few are like drops of water in the desert.

This is our world now... The world of the electron and the switch, the beauty of the baud. We make use of a service already existing without paying for what could be dirt cheap if it wasn't run by profiteering gluttons, and you call us criminals. We explore... And you call us criminals. We exist without skin color, without nationality, without religious bias... And you call us criminals. You build atomic bombs, you wage wars, you murder, you cheat, and lie to us and try to make us believe it's for our own good, yet we're the criminals.

Yes, I am a criminal. My crime is that of curiosity. My crime is that of judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like. My crime is that of outsmarting you, something that you will never forgive me for.

I am a hacker, and this is my manifesto. You may stop this individual, but you can't stop us all...

After all, We're all alike.


I want each and every viewer of this thread to give me your opinion. On hacking, cracking, and anything else. Be truthful. I don't mind if your biased and continue your misjudgmental ways, its your perogative. It's your opinion, your idea, your theory. That's fine. Tell us it.

A hacker, like anyone else who breaks and enters (which is what they do) deserves to be punished.

But, in personal my view, a hacker is far more tolerable than a normal criminal, and I'd respect a hacker more (and probably not turn him in, as I would a normal criminal)

I bow to you, Witz, for being the one that explained the truth.

A hacker, like anyone else who breaks and enters (which is what they do) deserves to be punished.

But, in personal my view, a hacker is far more tolerable than a normal criminal, and I'd respect a hacker more (and probably not turn him in, as I would a normal criminal)

If "they deserve to be punished", why would you not turn them in? And how are they more tolerable? I don't mean to pry into your mind, but I'd like to know more of such a view.

Meh. I'm more bothered by spam and spyware than I am about [h/cr]acking.

But I already knew the difference between the two ;)

I bow to you, Witz, for being the one that explained the truth.

Do not "bow". I am mearly expressing the truth, the stuff that has long been shadowed behind the media, the "Big Brother", the damn "oppression" of freedom that isn't free.

A hacker, like anyone else who breaks and enters (which is what they do) deserves to be punished.

But they haven't entered anything. just remained in their chair ;)

Violating an individual's privacy by hacking into his computer is a terrible crime. Hacking into a corporation's computer is still pretty bad, especially if you are stealing or sabotaging their operations. Hacking into government computers is treason. Hacking, all in all should be punished, in some cases severely.

Do not "bow". I am mearly expressing the truth, the stuff that has long been shadowed behind the media, the "Big Brother", the damn "oppression" of freedom that isn't free.

Hundreds before you have also expressed the truth, but they've all been involved in the hacking community and were pushed aside. There's a difference between whitehat and blackhat hacking, and the general public simply can't see that.

A further explanation:

“Hackers like to tinker with systems and explore the limits of what they can and cannot do. There’s nothing wrong with that; it’s learning by doing. For hackers, the systems are a passion. It’s the love of learning that drives them. Crackers, though, have similar skill sets as hackers, but have a malicious intent. They are the ones who write viruses, wipe out systems, etc.”

He has given a wonderful explanation of the difference, if my little "paper" didn't clear it up or it was simply too long.

Violating an individual's privacy by hacking into his computer is a terrible crime. Hacking into a corporation's computer is still pretty bad, especially if you are stealing or sabotaging their operations. Hacking into government computers is treason. Hacking, all in all should be punished, in some cases severely.

I'd like to point out that only 5% of all hackers act in the way you describe the entire community - and usually it's not even as extreme as that.

Violating an individual's privacy by hacking into his computer is a terrible crime. Hacking into a corporation's computer is still pretty bad, especially if you are stealing or sabotaging their operations. Hacking into government computers is treason. Hacking, all in all should be punished, in some cases severely.

Read. Read. Read. Please read, and you will learn.

I'd like to point out that only 5% of all hackers act in the way you describe the entire community - and usually it's not even as extreme as that.
Ok, those hackers deserve to be punished.

Hundreds before you have also expressed the truth, but they've all been involved in the hacking community and were pushed aside. There's a difference between whitehat and blackhat hacking, and the general public simply can't see that.

The general public doesn't want to see it. They don't feel the need to eliminate or seperate the two groups, because to them they're all the same.

But, "We're all the same..."

Hacking into a corporation's computer is still pretty bad, especially if you are stealing or sabotaging their operations.

What if you are exposing corruption?

Hacking into government computers is treason.

So, if I hack into the US Gvt computers, I am a traitor (NB: I'm a brit).

TG waiting for you Witz.

What if you are exposing corruption?



So, if I hack into the US Gvt computers, I am a traitor (NB: I'm a brit).
1 You have no search warrant. What if I peeked into people's windows at night to see if they were touching their kids? I would be helping stop child molestation, but I would be guilty of a crime and deserve punishment.

2 No, then you are a terrorist.

Actually, hacking into a governments computer is nearly impossible. It's not like some teenager can figure out the passwords to the tellnet server, bypass some "simple" encryption, etc.

The government would be at your front door in two minutes flat. More along the lines of one minute, thirty seconds.

Granted, it has been done before. But those who did such possess skills far beyond those of the normal "cracker". It's like comparing Jagermeister to Coors Light. There's no comparison.

1 You have no search warrant. What if I peeked into people's windows at night to see if they were touching their kids? I would be helping stop child molestation, but I would be guilty of a crime and deserve punishment.

2 No, then you are a terrorist.

I think the illustrated point was your use of the word 'treason'.

Actually, hacking into a governments computer is nearly impossible. It's not like some teenager can figure out the passwords to the tellnet server, bypass some "simple" encryption, etc.

The government would be at your front door in two minutes flat. More along the lines of one minute, thirty seconds.

Granted, it has been done before. But those who did such possess skills far beyond those of the normal "cracker". It's like comparing Jagermeister to Coors Light. There's no comparison.
Yeah, but if he can, and if he decides to play a game of global thermonuclear war, then we're all screwed. I've seen the movie.

Actually, hacking into a governments computer is nearly impossible. It's not like some teenager can figure out the passwords to the tellnet server, bypass some "simple" encryption, etc.

The government would be at your front door in two minutes flat. More along the lines of one minute, thirty seconds.

Granted, it has been done before. But those who did such possess skills far beyond those of the normal "cracker". It's like comparing Jagermeister to Coors Light. There's no comparison.

They, especially the US, have the most powerful and secure systems in the world. Their technology is 10 years in advance of your PC.

Cornix, I've responded.

Also, "drunk commies", you obviously don't care enough to actually read the paper and digest it into your mind. Read intently, don't skim. And a "terrorist"? So, hackers blew up the twin towers?

1 You have no search warrant. What if I peeked into people's windows at night to see if they were touching their kids? I would be helping stop child molestation, but I would be guilty of a crime and deserve punishment.

Depends if you seriously thought this was happenning in a case, or if you were being paranoid and were looking through random peoples windows in the hope that you would catch someone.

However there is a marked difference between an individuals house and a corporation.

2 No, then you are a terrorist.

How about if I worked for the US Gvt, and my job was to hack into Gvt computers of other states?

Yeah, but if he can, and if he decides to play a game of global thermonuclear war, then we're all screwed. I've seen the movie.

Ooooo....movie. Wow. Which movie? "Hackers"? Which is by far the worst representation.

Perhaps "The Cyber Experiment"?

You have more knowledge of me by far, especially with movies that portray a hacker as a grungy and dirty teenager.

Yeah, but if he can, and if he decides to play a game of global thermonuclear war, then we're all screwed. I've seen the movie.

You've dusted your argument off by mentioning a movie. The movies have no idea. Hollywood crap designed to make the hacking community look like a bunch of nerds with a 3748383 IQ a piece hacking the most secure systems ever created by slamming their fingers a bit on their keyboards.

Cornix, I've responded.

Also, "drunk commies", you obviously don't care enough to actually read the paper and digest it into your mind. Read intently, don't skim. And a "terrorist"? So, hackers blew up the twin towers?
I've gone back and read it. Well part of it.
Terrorist is too strong a term, but it's definately an unfriendly act. I would like to think our government would find you, kidnap you, and interrogate you if you did such a thing.

I've gone back and read it. Well part of it.
Terrorist is too strong a term, but it's definately an unfriendly act. I would like to think our government would find you, kidnap you, and interrogate you if you did such a thing.

Kidnapping is illegal. You screwed up once more.

I'm not going to argue with you. I stated that your opinion is yours, and you may keep it. Maybe you should read what your posting about before you say movies show you the truth and etcetera.

Some hackers are very helpful, some will contact you to point out your security problems, of course they want a job or a recommendation but I feel their services are worth it.

Some hackers are very helpful, some will contact you to point out your security problems, of course they want a job or a recommendation but I feel their services are worth it.

Some of the greatest hackers that ever existed are now working with corporations designing some of the most powerful pieces of software ever.

Ooooo....movie. Wow. Which movie? "Hackers"? Which is by far the worst representation.

Perhaps "The Cyber Experiment"?

You have more knowledge of me by far, especially with movies that portray a hacker as a grungy and dirty teenager.
Wargames?

Remineded me of this :

http://www.annoyances.org/exec/show/article09-127

:D

Ooooo....movie. Wow. Which movie? "Hackers"? Which is by far the worst representation.

Perhaps "The Cyber Experiment"?

You have more knowledge of me by far, especially with movies that portray a hacker as a grungy and dirty teenager.
No, the one with Mathew Broderick. It was in the '80s. Plus I was just screwing with you.

Wargames?

Remineded me of this :

http://www.annoyances.org/exec/show/article09-127

:D

Hah! Wargames...ah, that was a fabulous representation.

"You can launch nuclear missles from any bedroom using an analog modem, but only if you know a single secret password."

Heh.

Kidnapping is illegal. You screwed up once more.

I'm not going to argue with you. I stated that your opinion is yours, and you may keep it. Maybe you should read what your posting about before you say movies show you the truth and etcetera.
I don't care if it's illegal. I want my government to take whatever action is necessary to secure the good old US of A.

I'm amazed. I made 3 pages with something I could get an "F" in in English. What fun.

I don't care if it's illegal. I want my government to take whatever action is necessary to secure the good old US of A.

The USA has hired hackers to work in the Pentagon to secure information from other national governments. Also, they work to encrypt the files for the government.

So, kidnapping is A-OK but hacking is bad? Good opinion.

Hah! Wargames...ah, that was a fabulous representation.

"You can launch nuclear missles from any bedroom using an analog modem, but only if you know a single secret password."

Heh.

Lol, I liked that one too.

The USA has hired hackers to work in the Pentagon to secure information from other national governments. Also, they work to encrypt the files for the government.

So, kidnapping is A-OK but hacking is bad? Good opinion.

And the NSA.

The USA has hired hackers to work in the Pentagon to secure information from other national governments. Also, they work to encrypt the files for the government.

So, kidnapping is A-OK but hacking is bad? Good opinion.
Thank you. I pride myself on my good opinions.

Thank you. I pride myself on my good opinions.

Just another victim to the media.

Hacking is always given a bad name. What most of the "human race" thinks of when they hear the word "hacker" or "hacking" is actually something different, something called a "cracker". A cracker is a malicious criminal. Someone who hacks into a computer, a network, or anything else for the sole purpose of destroying or stealing something on/inside that area.

I'm not familiar with computer terms, but traditionally a "cracker" is a native of the state of Florida. The name comes from the "cracking" of a cattleman's whip (in the early years Florida was "Wild South" cow country). It is sometimes derisively used to describe a white southerner, but Florida natives are still proud to call themselves "crackers." There is also a "cracker horse;" free roaming ancestors of the horses first brought to Florida by Ponce de Leon and the Spanish.

Lol, I liked that one too.
:D

I'm not familiar with computer terms, but traditionally a "cracker" is a native of the state of Florida. The name comes from the "cracking" of a cattleman's whip (in the early years Florida was "Wild South" cow country). It is sometimes derisively used to describe a white southerner, but Florida natives are still proud to call themselves "crackers." There is also a "cracker horse;" free roaming ancestors of the horses first brought to Florida by Ponce de Leon and the Spanish.

Indeed.

But cracking in computer terms simply means to "break and enter with malicious purposes"....it's essentially a robber of the cyber age.

I'm not familiar with computer terms, but traditionally a "cracker" is a native of the state of Florida. The name comes from the "cracking" of a cattleman's whip (in the early years Florida was "Wild South" cow country). It is sometimes derisively used to describe a white southerner, but Florida natives are still proud to call themselves "crackers." There is also a "cracker horse;" free roaming ancestors of the horses first brought to Florida by Ponce de Leon and the Spanish.

I'm not even going to dignify that with a response.

EDIT: Sorry, read it too fast and didn't realise you admitted you didn't know much about hacker terms.

I'm not even going to dignify that with a response.

Did you take offense?

^^^ Edited, I apologise.

Did you take offense?

Your statement or question wasn't offensive in the slightest way.

So besides H4x0r0r, (rax0r0r should be added to the new 1337sp33k dictionary?

Personally I don't have much of a problem with a hacker, they can look at my files, it's not going to be interesting.

Crackers I have problems with, they just get entertainment from causing other people harm and stress.

If a hacker goes through my files thats fine, if he changes things that makes me angry. Sure big corporations are going to have problems with both and will punish them to the full extent of the law, but a kid in the suburbs with very little other than computer games and msn on his laptop isn't gonna cause much distress.

I know hackers, I know they don't mean any harm, infact would you believe it, I know a kid that was arrested by the fbi a couple of years back, that lives down my street, Joseph McElroy. Not sure if any of you brits remember him, but if you wanna find information, just search his name on google.

Do it if you must, but don't get caught ;)

I do not in any way endorse the actions of someone deliberately hindering, destroying or otherwise inconveniencing anyone else engaged in legal, moral (such as it is) activities. Spoiling someone else's work for your own amusement is, ultimately, juvenile.

On the other hand, if we didn't have hackers and virus writers and such, I don't believe the IT industry would be where it was today. We have a tendency to become complacent about the things we use if we're not challenged. Imagine the impact that terrorists and other malcontents could have on us if our tech industry hadn't been battling hackers and virus writers practically from the beginning. Osama bin Laden could effectively cripple a large portion of the western world with one well-written virus.

So I'm of two minds. We're effectively innoculated against some of the greater abuses, but the fact that people want to is appalling. I have no problem with people who merely seek to improve the quality of the product they use, but the way people abuse the tools they're given annoys me.

So besides H4x0r0r, (rax0r0r should be added to the new 1337sp33k dictionary?

...

Indeed.

But cracking in computer terms simply means to "break and enter with malicious purposes"....it's essentially a robber of the cyber age.

I noticed you are from New Jersey. What do you know about the legend of the New Jerset devil (not the hockey team)? I have heard that folks in NJ tell of a devil, similar to Big Foot. Ever heard of it?

I noticed you are from New Jersey. What do you know about the legend of the New Jerset devil (not the hockey team)? I have heard that folks in NJ tell of a devil, similar to Big Foot. Ever heard of it?

Yeah, I've heard of it. A little off topic, don't you think?

Once again, the ignorance of the general public is pitiful.

Hacker = Uber-computer person

Cracker = Computer criminal

1 12 73|-| 1337 |-|4><012|\/|457312. p|-|3412 |\/|3!

Once again, the ignorance of the general public is pitiful.

Hacker = Uber-computer person

Cracker = Computer criminal

1 12 73|-| 1337 |-|4><012|\/|457312. p|-|3412 |\/|3!

Nobody talks "1337." Most hackers you will come across will slap you for that, and then speak unix code. Then they will laugh in your face.

Or, that's what I would do.

Most hackers you will come across will slap you for that, and then speak unix code. Then they will laugh in your face.

Or, that's what I would do.
I think that's what most people would do.

Once again, the ignorance of the general public is pitiful.

Hacker = Uber-computer person

Cracker = Computer criminal

1 12 73|-| 1337 |-|4><012|\/|457312. p|-|3412 |\/|3!

Translation: I am the leet haxor master. Fear me.

Nobody talks "1337." Most hackers you will come across will slap you for that, and then speak unix code. Then they will laugh in your face.

Or, that's what I would do.

I know that.

It's just fun.

Some of the greatest hackers that ever existed are now working with corporations designing some of the most powerful pieces of software ever.

And some mediocre hackers are running powerful corporations

And some mediocre hackers are running the greatest corporations ever

*Cough* Dell *Cough*

What? Oh...nothing...

*Cough* Apple (board of VIPs) *cough*

I think I have a cold....

Here's another quote. One of my favorites, actually...


Q: Please write me a sonnet on the subject of the Forth Bridge.
A: Count me out on this one. I could never write poetry.
Q: Add 44957 to 70764.
A: (pause about 30 seconds and then give as answer) 105621.
Q: Do you play chess?
A: Yes.
Q: I have K at my K1, and no other pieces. You only have K at K6 and R at R1. It is your move. What do you play?
A: (After a pause of 15 seconds) R-R8 mate.

Note that if this dialog is with a machine, it is able to do faulty arithmetic (39457 + 7064 does not equal 105621) and play decent chess at the same time.

The "Q" is a human. The "A" is a computer. It is mimicking a human and what one might say. Notice how it uses a certain degree of humor when asked to write a sonnet.

. . . I believe that in about fifty years' time it will be possible to program computers, ... to make them play the imitation game so well that an average interrogator will not have more than 70 percent chance of making the right identification after five minutes of questioning. The original question, "Can machines think?" I believe to be too meaningless to deserve discussion. Nevertheless I believe that at the end of the century the use of words and educated opinion will have altered so much that one will be able to speak of machines thinking without expecting it to be contradicted.

His dream has come true, welcome to the age of supercomputers.

People...I want all of your opinions. Read the essay and tell me your views. Please? :)

chow -R us ./base

A little thing that will raise some eyebrows and make some laugh... ;)

I think this embodies the position of the media on 'Hackers'

http://dragon.roe.ch/~roe/public/geek/hacker-bomb.jpg

It is very worrying to think that anyone belives this

I think this embodies the position of the media on 'Hackers'

http://dragon.roe.ch/~roe/public/geek/hacker-bomb.jpg

It is very worrying to think that anyone belives this

What's really sad about that is that someone from the NCPF thought about that concept...

Reading the essay, I think you've got it down to a T. Good work ^_^

[ For the record, I'm Pro-hacking ]

I'll stick this first, just so I don't forget to include it.
But did all you 'Anti-Hackers' realise that the mega-corperations hire teams of hackers to attempt to access their computer systems, to test the security which they then use to fend off Crackers?
I've never participated in them (Sadly I'm just not that skilled in networking) but apparantly there are big cash prizes for any hacker who can successfully access key files within the computer system!

If you don't want anyone to access your files, hackers or crackers, then close the 'door'. I bet you have a door on your house? Don't you? It keeps all sorts of people out.
Some you'd not mind comming in and saying hi (hackers), others you'd much perfer to keep out, incase they steal or break things (crackers)
A question to anti-hackers, Have you ever heard of a firewall?
If you're so opposed to people accessing things, maybe you should get one?
(Yes, I understand that they arnt a perfect system, but they'll keep out 95% of anyone trying to access your PC)

Did you also know..that every time you send an email.. a copy of it is left on at least 1 computer (other than yours, and the recipients)
And just think... by connecting to the internet via an ISP company, you are agreeing to a contact which says that they can access files on your PC whenever they want.

Oh..and also.. technically.. if you connect your PC to the Internet or use the WWW, to a certain extent..you are hacking...
In order to connect to the Internet, your PC connects to another one, (which is connected to several more, hence the NET(work) part)
Every single website which exists is a file sitting on someones computer, every time you visit this web page... you are connecting to THEIR computer, and accessing THEIR files....
You dirty little hacker! How dare you do such a thing!
So basically... you don't want to hack or be hacked, really the only solution is to never go online ever again...

Hope this provides some reasonable input ^_^

Actually, your not hacking if you just connect to the internet. Also, I realize you said "to a certain extent." Correct, in some ways, but also incorrect.

But your opinion is one of the few that makes sense and isn't a nonsense flame.

**EDIT: Nevermind...**

Thank you, I've had this argument several times with friends offline.

The media has had a HUGE impact on people, even the *very* computer literate with the interchangable 'hacker-cracker' tag, but even so, ignorance dosen't justify it.
Then again it happens in all other contexts.
What stops a Pressure group from being called a terrorist organisation and vice versa? (i.e. Greenpeace brought some nuclear missiles a few years back... dosen't this make them more of a threat than Al Quada?)

As long as people will believe everything the media throws at them, I think this 'Hacker=Cracker' thing will still exist, which is pretty stupid.

By 'to a certain extent', I'm refering to the fact that people have said that connecting to someones PC and accessing files should be illegal, and this is exactly what happens when you use the Internet or the WWW.

I actually handed this essay into my English teacher today for a writing prompt on anything we wanted. I ended up getting a 62%, which is a failing grade.

Yet when I post it on here I get praised....funny, eh?

I'm a hracker, then. Actually, I think you have a point, the two aren't the same thing.

I'm a hracker, then. Actually, I think you have a point, the two aren't the same thing.

Hm? You're a hacker or a cracker?

And thank you. :D

Look it at this way...you know how some people who are mechanical incline like to take apart engines and then put them back together and maybe tweak them at bit? Hackers are like that...except they are taking apart highly complex data structures. Nothing inherently bad about that.

Look it at this way...you know how some people who are mechanical incline like to take apart engines and then put them back together and maybe tweak them at bit? Hackers are like that...except they are taking apart highly complex data structures. Nothing inherently bad about that.

Trial and error.

I understand what your saying, and thats a good way to put it to those who may not understand. Good job summarizing, kinda. :)

388 views, but only a few posts by individuals....mind posting, people?

Oh my goodness! Bump #1

I actually handed this essay into my English teacher today for a writing prompt on anything we wanted. I ended up getting a 62%, which is a failing grade.

Yet when I post it on here I get praised....funny, eh?

Are you given criticisms on work you hand in.

It would be interesting why you go that mark.

Are you given criticisms on work you hand in.

It would be interesting why you go that mark.

Yes, I am. It is very, very interesting why I got a failing grade, actually. Few reasons...
According to the teacher and her red pen:

1) Hacking isn't an appropriate school subject.
2) Obvious Plajorism.
3) Works cited improperly.
4) The "Hackers Manifesto" isn't published, and therefor cannot be cited as their is no author.

Right. Here's my argument for her tomorrow:

1) Your thinking of cracking. Read the paper.
2) How can it be plajorism if I wrote it in class?
3) Most were memorized.
4) It's published on numerous websites. But that's not a book, so its not official. Well, the newspaper isn't a book but people quote it.

There are numerous other things, but those are just rants on sections I quoted, etc. etc. But these have no effect on the grade. She deducted 25 points because it was innappropriate.

Oh no! Bump #2

Nobody talks "1337." Most hackers you will come across will slap you for that, and then speak unix code. Then they will laugh in your face.

Or, that's what I would do.

Woot! I know, it pisses me off when people think they're uderleet without knowing a single language or having had any exposure to hacking other than the movie hackers. :mad:

Bump #3! Oh no! AHH!!

Anybody else care to comment or make a statement/question?

Woot! I know, it pisses me off when people think they're uderleet without knowing a single language or having had any exposure to hacking other than the movie hackers. :mad:

The movies Hackers is horrible. Nobody should watch it unless your being tortured for computer crime.

And I think it pisses everyone off.

The movies Hackers is horrible. Nobody should watch it unless your being tortured for computer crime.

And I think it pisses everyone off.

I'm not exactly leet, but I thought it was okay. Granted, it's not exactly a documentary, but then neither is Private Ryan. Still enjoyable.

I'm not exactly leet, but I thought it was okay. Granted, it's not exactly a documentary, but then neither is Private Ryan. Still enjoyable.

Here's a summary of the movie:

A hacker "group" of grungy and filthy people do drugs and get even more filthy. Hackers hijack a television station and broadcast to the public about hacking, which raises one of my eyebrows.

Then, when the people hack and explain the 5 most commonly used passwords, which aren't real seeing how god, sex, power, money, and whatever the other one was are usually too small by today's standards. Most files need a minimum of 6 letters/symbols/numbers.

Then, you have the guy who sinks a ship by hacking...that raises my other eyebrow. And my eyes go blind when they show you the computer screens, the one thats huge and shows the hackers entering a password while the guard sleeps, and the other time where its like smiley faces and a bunch of equations when the kids hack.

I don't understand how that even comes close to RL hacking, or even cracking.

An interesting bit of trivia: The term "hacker" comes from the first computer programmers at MIT. They were students and would help with the comp, and in return they were allowed to play with it in their free time. They made games, and called the process "hacking". They refered to themselves as "hackers".

Now you know.

An interesting bit of trivia: The term "hacker" comes from the first computer programmers at MIT. They were students and would help with the comp, and in return they were allowed to play with it in their free time. They made games, and called the process "hacking". They refered to themselves as "hackers".

Now you know.

Alot of people know where the word hacker came from. And that's only half of the story. The rest is too long...

Bump #4. I still want the other 100 viewers' opinions...

Hacking is a job to better the security of the cites on the internet. My brother was kicked off our network at our school all because he knew how to hack. Hacking is a great profession. its not someone who breaks and enters. although it could be. think of it like this, you have a hunter. they kill animals for food. but wait. hunter, hmmmm. Well they hunt people and kill them ... NO. hunters are good people. even if the have the capabilities of killing somone. BUT THEY DON'T. how about people who work in a nuclear power plant. THEY ARE KILLERS. no they are not. even though they could send it into a core meltdown. but hey. think what ya wan't.

Yes, I am. It is very, very interesting why I got a failing grade, actually. Few reasons...
According to the teacher and her red pen:

1) Hacking isn't an appropriate school subject.

Seems like a very knee jerk reaction to me.

I, mean. You put it forward clearly. You weren't saying "SMASH THE SYSTEM lol !!!!!!!1111!!"

2) Obvious Plajorism.

Did you plagarise?

3) Works cited improperly.

Well, that's really something I couldn't comment on.

4) The "Hackers Manifesto" isn't published, and therefor cannot be cited as their is no author.

You should still be able to reference it. It did have a author, but he [s]he decided to remain anonymous. I wonder what your teacher would think if you cited "Primary Colours" before Joe Klein decided to put his name on it.

Right. Here's my argument for her tomorrow:

1) Your thinking of cracking. Read the paper.
2) How can it be plajorism if I wrote it in class?
3) Most were memorized.
4) It's published on numerous websites. But that's not a book, so its not official. Well, the newspaper isn't a book but people quote it.

You have a point on that last one. The fact it has no known author, or was ever published means nada. Of course, That doesn't apply to everything (for example you couldn't cite something on a forum), but it is useful to understand where most hackers are coming from.

There are numerous other things, but those are just rants on sections I quoted, etc. etc. But these have no effect on the grade. She deducted 25 points because it was innappropriate.

Seems like pure vindictivness to me.

Good luck.

Hacking is a job to better the security of the cites on the internet. My brother was kicked off our network at our school all because he knew how to hack. Hacking is a great profession. its not someone who breaks and enters. although it could be. think of it like this, you have a hunter. they kill animals for food. but wait. hunter, hmmmm. Well they hunt people and kill them ... NO. hunters are good people. even if the have the capabilities of killing somone. BUT THEY DON'T. how about people who work in a nuclear power plant. THEY ARE KILLERS. no they are not. even though they could send it into a core meltdown. but hey. think what ya wan't.

Actually, hacking has nothing to do with bettering security. Usually companies hire them to test the security systems already established, or to have them monitor the company's systems/networks.

And school's don't kick kids off for hacking unless they exploited something in the network.

Bump #4. I still want the other 100 viewers' opinions...
Good luck. If you want 100 different views on one thread try creating a topic on abortion or homosexuality.

I doubt you'll get that many on this one.

Good luck. If you want 100 different views on one thread try creating a topic on abortion or homosexuality.

I doubt you'll get that many on this one.

Meh.

A hacker, like anyone else who breaks and enters (which is what they do) deserves to be punished.

But, in personal my view, a hacker is far more tolerable than a normal criminal, and I'd respect a hacker more (and probably not turn him in, as I would a normal criminal)hello how do u hack in to computers??????

hello how do u hack in to computers??????


o.O If you're looking for instructions on how to break into someone else's stored data, you will NOT find that here.

On the other hand, if you're trying to say that hackers are crackers, do a little reading.

Hackers are even the people who ping a server and send a message to the owner if something unusual is coming back. Basically, a hacker is anyone who displays an interest in the inner workings and uses of a computer.

You have a point on that last one. The fact it has no known author, or was ever published means nada. Of course, That doesn't apply to everything (for example you couldn't cite something on a forum), but it is useful to understand where most hackers are coming from.

The Hacker's Manifesto was written by Loyd Blankenship. It is Copyright (C) 1986 mentor@blankenship.com

Yes, I am. It is very, very interesting why I got a failing grade, actually. Few reasons...
According to the teacher and her red pen:

1) Hacking isn't an appropriate school subject.
2) Obvious Plajorism.
3) Works cited improperly.
4) The "Hackers Manifesto" isn't published, and therefor cannot be cited as their is no author.

Right. Here's my argument for her tomorrow:

1) Your thinking of cracking. Read the paper.
2) How can it be plajorism if I wrote it in class?
3) Most were memorized.
4) It's published on numerous websites. But that's not a book, so its not official. Well, the newspaper isn't a book but people quote it.

There are numerous other things, but those are just rants on sections I quoted, etc. etc. But these have no effect on the grade. She deducted 25 points because it was innappropriate.

Did your teacher misspell plagiarism? I'd ditch that class in a heartbeat if she did. Anyway, anything that is posted on the internet is published. The author of the manifesto is commonly known as The Mentor. If your teacher considers it invalid because it is an internet source, show her http://www.osha.gov .
If she denies the credibility of THIS,then something is seriously wrong with her...

The Hacker's Manifesto was written by Loyd Blankenship. It is Copyright (C) 1986 mentor@blankenship.com
Well I live and learn.

hello how do u hack in to computers??????
Practise man, practice.

Practise man, practice.how do u do it

with an orange and some chex mix

how do u do it
I can't.

Even though my computer knowledge is better then the lay man (not hard), I don't know enough to be a hacker.

And I don't really have the time to invest in it.

I noticed you are from New Jersey. What do you know about the legend of the New Jerset devil (not the hockey team)? I have heard that folks in NJ tell of a devil, similar to Big Foot. Ever heard of it?
No. The Jersey devil isn't a Bigfoot type creature. We have a local bigfoot legend called Big Red Eye. The Jersey devil is a bipedal reptilian beast with antlers cloven hooves and wings. The 13th child of old Mrs. Leeds cursed by it's mother on the day of it's birth.

Damn.
We don't have anything cool like that up in VT to scare people with...
Well, make something up. In 200 years or so it'll become a legend like the Jersey Devil.

Hackers should bear the full penalty of law! Harsh sentences are whats needed to stop this crap!
If someone throws a brick through your window they have to pay, why not these little scumbags?

I am a hacker and I have never understood why people confuse "hackers" with "crackers".

If you want a good page about hackers, Click on this link (http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html)

Its interesting how few people here got the definition of hacker correct, even the person who started the thread. A hacker is someone with a love for technology and a yearning for knowing how things work. This yearning for knowledge tends to be focused toward forbidden knowledge, things people dont want you to know. Such as, how does the phone system work? What is on the magnetic strip of a credit card? what do the numbers on an atm card mean? Real hackers have no interested in breaking into systems, their interest in is finding out how things work.

Crackers are people who break into systems (whether for malicious purposes or just to look around). The confusion comes in because alot of hackers (but not all of them) have also done some cracking.

I have to admit Ive done my share of cracking. Now I make a living stopping crackers. Do I feel sorry for the people that get arrested because of me? not at all. They arent the intelligent people that used to pervade the cracking scene, they are all a bunch of teenagers who downloaded nessus or nmap and wanted to prove they were cool. They knew what they were doing was wrong and they did it anyway.

Hackers should bear the full penalty of law! Harsh sentences are whats needed to stop this crap!
If someone throws a brick through your window they have to pay, why not these little scumbags?
You haven't read the rest of the thread have you.

It is a very small minority of 'hackers' that do stuff like that.

What you are essentially advocating (to stick on the private property analogy) is to fine people for walking past you front gate.

Wow. Overwhelming amount or response. First, let me thank you all. Second, let me laugh at those who did what I said not to.

Numbero Uno:
how do u do it
Don't ask "how do i hack" in this thread. First, that's one way to have the cops come knocking on your door, especially in America. Second, that's just plain stupidity. Hacking isn't something you learn...you just figure it out.

Number Two:
Hackers should bear the full penalty of law! Harsh sentences are whats needed to stop this crap!
If someone throws a brick through your window they have to pay, why not these little scumbags?
Okay, as many have already posted...you have to read this. Drunken commies did what you did, skimmed or didn't even read the thread, saw the word Hacking in the title, and posted a disrepsectful post.

Three:

I am a hacker and I have never understood why people confuse "hackers" with "crackers".

If you want a good page about hackers, Click on this link

If you honestly, seriously, think you're a hacker after you read that....then you must be what I'd like to label as "special". That entire site/paper/whatever it is, its just a thing to teach you how to be a poser. A poser of hacking. Which is one of the worst kinds of posers there ever will be.

As in this quote from your site: "Read science fiction. Go to science fiction conventions (a good way to meet hackers and proto-hackers)."

I don't enjoy science fiction, books or television or movies. I hate it all. Makes no sense to me, and I wouldn't like it if it did. I've read my share of sci-fi books, and to me they aren't interesting.

It's wonderful the stupidity some of you have and what you think is hacking. Now to continue...

Four:
Its interesting how few people here got the definition of hacker correct, even the person who started the thread. A hacker is someone with a love for technology and a yearning for knowing how things work. This yearning for knowledge tends to be focused toward forbidden knowledge, things people dont want you to know. Such as, how does the phone system work? What is on the magnetic strip of a credit card? what do the numbers on an atm card mean? Real hackers have no interested in breaking into systems, their interest in is finding out how things work.

Crackers are people who break into systems (whether for malicious purposes or just to look around). The confusion comes in because alot of hackers (but not all of them) have also done some cracking.

I have to admit Ive done my share of cracking. Now I make a living stopping crackers. Do I feel sorry for the people that get arrested because of me? not at all. They arent the intelligent people that used to pervade the cracking scene, they are all a bunch of teenagers who downloaded nessus or nmap and wanted to prove they were cool. They knew what they were doing was wrong and they did it anyway.

"Its interesting how few people here got the definition of hacker correct, even the person who started the thread." I said the exact thing that you listed as your definition.

(Most) Hackers do break into systems. If you say they just want to find out how something works, then whats the difference between them and say a Chemical Scientist? Most people want knowledge, and want to know what things mean.

Hacking, in your definition, is someone who's curious about technology. So, if a six year old asks his father how the man's cell phone works, is that boy a hacker? No, he's just curious. He doesn't know that there are satellites and tracking facilities all over the globe, his father probably just tells him there are transmitters or some nonsense that won't make any sense anyway.

Nobody can truthfully determine what a hacker is, and what they aren't.

Also, number 5. Although I can't quote you, this is for the person who said The Hacker's Manifesto is by so-and-so.

Wrong. The Hacker's Manifesto has no true origin, as many have republished it and have said it was their own thoughts. It's a neverending quest of lies and deciet. The actual man/woman/thing that wrote the manifesto has never been "unvieled".

I don't enjoy science fiction, books or television or movies. I hate it all. Makes no sense to me, and I wouldn't like it if it did. I've read my share of sci-fi books, and to me they aren't interesting.

And on the other hand, I love science fiction. But don't that huch about hacking.

Anyway, did you ask you teacher about your grade?

And on the other hand, I love science fiction. But don't that huch about hacking.

Anyway, did you ask you teacher about your grade?

She spelt plaigorism right, I just can't read her handwriting. Her views won't change, and I got in more trouble because I'm trying to save a course I want to take thats going to be shut down...so oh well, I got an F. :p

Isn't the issue here not one of terminology, but of actions? Regardless of whether you want to call someone a hacker or a cracker, doesn't:

a) accessing files, whether they're top secret classified or just somebody's personal junk, constitute invasion of privacy at best and espionage at worst?

b) tampering with code (open-source aside) constitute copyright violation?

c) pirating anything constitute copyright violation as well?

d) erasing files, damaging hardware, or crashing servers constitute vandalism at best and, I don't know, war at worst (if these actions occur internationally).

I mean, I understand the difference people put on the terms, but it seems that the main thing is implied intents, i.e. the hacker snoops and tinkers out of curiousity, whereas the cracker acts out of malice (or something). I think laws tend to concern themselves more with the acts, and less with the supposed rationales.

That said, I think modding communities and other independent folks have done a lot of good things. So I'm kind of conflicted.

Isn't the issue here not one of terminology, but of actions? Regardless of whether you want to call someone a hacker or a cracker, doesn't:

a) accessing files, whether they're top secret classified or just somebody's personal junk, constitute invasion of privacy at best and espionage at worst?

b) tampering with code (open-source aside) constitute copyright violation?

c) pirating anything constitute copyright violation as well?

d) erasing files, damaging hardware, or crashing servers constitute vandalism at best and, I don't know, war at worst (if these actions occur internationally).

I mean, I understand the difference people put on the terms, but it seems that the main thing is implied intents, i.e. the hacker snoops and tinkers out of curiousity, whereas the cracker acts out of malice (or something). I think laws tend to concern themselves more with the acts, and less with the supposed rationales.

That said, I think modding communities and other independent folks have done a lot of good things. So I'm kind of conflicted.


a) Indeed.
b) Somewhat. It depends, as if you edit something copyrighted by law and/or patented, I suppose so. But, say you install linux on your XBOX. That's just a violation of the warranty.
c) That has nothing to do with this, but pirating is illegal because of royalties and unpermitted distribution.
d) Also depends. It depends on what the file is, what is considered "vandalism", etc.

An issue with "computer crime" is that there are barely anything seperating harmful crashing of a network and finding out somebody's AIM password. It's just black and white, no grey...in most cases.

Well, there goes my XBox warranty. But tell me, can Bill Gates play Samurai Showdown on his box?

So, until the infernal machine craps out, that's:

Poland 1, Microsoft 0

But back on topic, you remember the whole business about strong cryptography being classified as "arms"? Under this formula, selling, transmitting, or even carrying a laptop with PGP on it constituted arms dealing, which could be considered espionage and be punished by death.

I agree about the shades of gray argument (why should computer crime be treated so different from old fashioned crime?) and this just popped into my head as a good example of black-and-white enforcement. Even if no one was ever sentenced, that was some dumb lawmaking.

Oh yeah, you're absolutely right about the warranty because the xBox tinkering is messing with hardware, not the software. You can patent the hardware, but not copyright it. So the Linux on the box isn't illegal because nobody can tell you what legally-acquired software you can or can't install on a drive.

The real issue is what do you do with the guys who develop box mod chips? If they use developer tools to work out their chips, they're using copyrighted information to build something new and different, right? But I think this is legal, like using a radio shack guide to build one of those stupid LCD number generators or something. So long as no one holds the patent on the mod chip, there's no violation.

Thank you for your imput once more.

Under today's "modernized laws", stupidity has reached its high.

There's no laws against sitting in the mall with a laptop....which can lead to some serious "chalking" (wardriving on foot, basically).

In fact, most systems in the malls of "oh-so-beautiful America" aren't even passworded. Your local Radioshack could crumble in an instant if you know how to use DOS correctly (dir, del, copy con, etc. commands).

Hell, by one simple command you can access the admin panel on any XP-using computer.

Oh yeah, you're absolutely right about the warranty because the xBox tinkering is messing with hardware, not the software. You can patent the hardware, but not copyright it. So the Linux on the box isn't illegal because nobody can tell you what legally-acquired software you can or can't install on a drive.

The real issue is what do you do with the guys who develop box mod chips? If they use developer tools to work out their chips, they're using copyrighted information to build something new and different, right? But I think this is legal, like using a radio shack guide to build one of those stupid LCD number generators or something. So long as no one holds the patent on the mod chip, there's no violation.

They can make/distribute the chips, not the bios. Ah, the good old loophole.

You haven't read the rest of the thread have you.

It is a very small minority of 'hackers' that do stuff like that.

What you are essentially advocating (to stick on the private property analogy) is to fine people for walking past you front gate.

It's called trespassing. And it is a crime.

Now, just like nobody is going to arrest you for crossing the front yard, probably nobody is going to arrest you for accessing an unsecured wireless network.

However, if you walk in through the unlocked back door of a nuclear power plant and walk around for a bit in an area labeled "authorized personell only," I'd bet that you'd get arrested if caught. Or if you walk into somebody's back yard, notice that the door is ajar, and walk in to the house.

...similarly, "hacking" into the computers of a major corporation/government organization/something of that magnitude can be prosecuted, even if you didn't hurt anything.

Actually, a lot of how you look at hacking depends on what analogy you use. If you use the analogy of looking into a window, that'll lead you to a different conclusion than if you use the analogy of walking into an unlocked door of a house and looking around. Which is why analogies as arguments are silly ;).

As to the definition of "hacker" vs. "cracker" - definitions are, in most cases, descriptive and not prescriptive. A dictionary describes how people use the word; definitions change over time. The word "gay" now means "homosexual" first, and has "happy" as a secondary meaning. If you mention a "gay couple," everyone will think of their sexual orientation.

Most people, as far as I know, use the word "hacker" to describe anybody that breaks into a computer system.

(On a different note, businesses really should get more strict about keeping their wireless network secure... even though stealing something from a house with an open front door is no less wrong than breaking in, it's stupid to not lock a front door...)

Well then, what shall the new word for us be?

I've honestly never heard of a hacker who takes "pride" in what they do, as you do...I've never heard or seen someone who always advertises what they are, unless they end up to be lying... ;)

Pride?
Are you saying you're quoting me by using those quotes, or quoting somebody else? I don't remember saying that.
I might be lying, I might be telling the truth. How would you know? I'm some random person in an online forum. Nobody knows my motives, nobody knows much. I can't prove that I am or am not lying to you.

.....I have no clue what you said in that first part....

I'm just saying, I've never heard or seen anybody who is so open about their "hacking abilities" as you are.

Script kiddys should be shot

Script kiddys should be shot

Ignorance is bliss, I suppose. ;)

What's with the quotes?
Anyway, I don't really care what anybody thinks. I don't care if everybody ignores everything I say. I felt like saying what I said, so I did.

The " " are for metaphors or rhetoric statements, or just sayings with two meanings...I'm not quoting anyone specific.

Ignorance is bliss, I suppose. ;)
Depends what you think the definition of "script kiddy" is though.

Ignorance is bliss, I suppose. ;)

ya, for example, some scriptys took out a gaming webpage called Eqnecro. Gee you pointed out the security flaws in some obsure gaming site. Gold star to you, fuking morons...

ya, for example, some scriptys took out a gaming webpage called Eqnecro. Gee you pointed out the security flaws in some obsure gaming site. Gold star to you, fuking morons...

Those would be teenage crackers, just stupid people with no lives basically. There were also people who cracked XBconnect.com, an XBox gaming site/modding community. They were true geniuses when the admin recorded their IPs.

Ah, I understand now. Thanks for clearing that up, I thought you were implying that I had said those things.

Nope. :D