NationStates Jolt Archive

Go ahead, I can't wait to see what you say. Do your worst. Try and convince me to believe in God, or at least try to make me understand why you do. Be warned: I'm a ruthless debater. *g*

Well, you get jesus magic free!!!11

Bvimb, the jesus-n00b

Go ahead, I can't wait to see what you say. Do your worst. Try and convince me to believe in God, or at least try to make me understand why you do. Be warned: I'm a ruthless debater. *g*
because it's your own choice

LOL

You can also practice white magic with herbs and things, though

because it's your own choice

What? I should believe in God because I have a chice to? I do believe that I have a choice, but I could also choose to not believe. I want to know what makes religious people stay.

What? I should believe in God because I have a chice to? I do believe that I have a choice, but I could also choose to not believe. I want to know what makes religious people stay.
don't ask me, i don't believe too :p

So that I can argue with you in NS general forum.

I was raised in a Southern Baptist household and as I grew older , became very bitter about all the hypocracies I saw within the church. Over the years I toyed with the idea of atheism allthough I never actually commited to it.

Then I went to college. I took alot of science classes. Biology, Astronomy, Various Mathematics etc... I know these are supposed to make people into atheists but it had the oposite affect on me. Witnessing how complex the universe is convinced me that it cant all exist out of chance. I cant explain the nature of whatever creative force is responsible but I'm pretty sure one exists.

As far as your own beliefs, thats up to you

I am an atheist, but I suppose religion provides easy answers to some of lifes questions, such as "Why do we exist?". I think it's probably nice to think that you will go somewhere nice (assuming you go to heaven) after death too.

Man, we have GOT to get a better hobby than this.

What? I should believe in God because I have a chice to? I do believe that I have a choice, but I could also choose to not believe. I want to know what makes religious people stay.
People don't like to change until they see a need to do so.

Wow. How come all the nice people come to my thread? I was just waiting for some of the out-spoken people I've met in other threads to show up, but, I guess they're just scared! :p

Just so everyone knows this, I really don't have anything against religious people. "Treat others as you wish to be treated." sort of thing. I went to church for seven years and I have two very religious friends. I'm just trying to figure out what makes people so attatched to it, but I guess that's a question that's ahrd for anybody to answer.

When I think of science, and nature, I think "one person couldn't have possibly made this all up!" I'm a big believer in chance and destiny, and to me that seems like the only way all these beautiful things could have gotten here. I also can't figure out why someone who created something like this would let his "kids" detroy it. :D

I also can't figure out why someone who created something like this would let his "kids" detroy it. :D

I can't figure that out either. What would be the point of creating us if all we're going to do is pollute it and blow each other up? See The End of the World (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/end.php) for examples :rolleyes:

So that I can argue with you in NS general forum.

That's as good as any reason I've ever heard. Becasue there are no good reasons except "because he's real" which a) I don't think he is, and b) wouldn't explain the point of worship and religion.

Pascal's Wager. Sure, it doesn't convince me, but still, it's one reason that is logically irrefutable.

I can't figure that out either. What would be the point of creating us if all we're going to do is pollute it and blow each other up? See The End of the World (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/end.php) for examples :rolleyes:

Believe me, humans are far from being able to destroy the Earth. We can make it a nasty place to live but the Earth will be around alot longer than us.

As far as blowing each other up, I dont think death is as big a deal to god as it is to us. We began dieing the instant we were born and each of us will meet our end one day. It doesnt matter if it's from a gun, a bomb, a disease, old age...whatever.

Believe me, humans are far from being able to destroy the Earth. We can make it a nasty place to live but the Earth will be around alot longer than us.

As far as blowing each other up, I dont think death is as big a deal to god as it is to us. We began dieing the instant we were born and each of us will meet our end one day. It doesnt matter if it's from a gun, a bomb, a disease, old age...whatever.

You're probably right on the being able to destroy the Earth thing. But I think it's a matter of opinion as to whether or not God actually cares about the death of a human. Perhaps the universe is just a game, rather like The Sims, and if God looses he/she/it can start over.

Who's to say?

Frankly, if god does exist, I don't think we were meant to know. In many ways I admire people who have such strong faith. It must be very comforting to believe that everything will be allright in the end.

I don't believe in God, but I think I'll start going to church, mosque or a synoguage, probably all three actually, about 2 months before I die. Once the cancer or whatever starts to affect my vital organs I am going all holy, just on the crazy chance these relgious nuts are actually right. Perhaps thats the approach you should take.

This is the problem. Others trying to influence others in believing their own idealogies. A true Christian would be fine with you refusing to believe in God. All that matters is that everyone respect each other's beliefs and views. So don't believe God, you are entitled to do that.

One should not ask him/herself 'Why should I believe in "God"? '- one should ask "why should I worship him (or her/it - whatever makes you happy)".

Reasoning:
Existence after all is something that cannot be proven or disproven by logical debate. Trying to do so therefor is a waste of time. Asking an subjective question instead is therefor wiser.

So... why should I worship G-d ? What makes Him worthy of my praise and devotion ?

A true Christian would be fine with you refusing to believe in God. All that matters is that everyone respect each other's beliefs and views.

Actually thats not true. If you read the Bible you will see that it is every Christians duty to try and convert everyone they can. This would be inconvenient though so most Christians ignore that part(fortunatly). I hate to say it but the 'true Christians' are the ones knocking on your door during dinner.

Islam actually takes it a step further. Like Christians, it is their duty to convert non-believers. However, they don't stop their. According to the Koran (yes, I have read it) if a non-believer wont convert they must pay a special tax. If they won't pay the tax they must be killed. (again, we are fortunate that most muslims dont enforce this part of their religion)

edit: interestingly, it seems Judaism actively disencourages people to convert. I one asked a Jewish friend if I could acompany him to his Temple just tosee what it was like. He laughed in my face and told me I'd never make in the front door. Too anglo I guess.

Go ahead, I can't wait to see what you say. Do your worst. Try and convince me to believe in God, or at least try to make me understand why you do. Be warned: I'm a ruthless debater. *g*


Because He said so. ;)

Pascal's Wager. Sure, it doesn't convince me, but still, it's one reason that is logically irrefutable.
You can't refute my claim that I am God (which I am) because I could choose not to prove my Godliness.

Because He believes in you too...

I can't figure that out either. What would be the point of creating us if all we're going to do is pollute it and blow each other up? See The End of the World (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/end.php) for examples :rolleyes:
You obviously haven't put much thought into this. Why would he interfere? I beleive that life is supposed to be a test, if you pass it, you go on to a better afterlife. On your SAT's, did your teacher come up to you and say "Psst, here's the answers. Don't tell anyone ;) " I seriously doubt it. Another theory is that we were just a failure. If you're all powerful, the time period in which humans have existed isn't that long. For all you know, the dinosaurs could be the first experiment, the humans the second, and who knows what the next could be. He could be letting us destroy ourselves, making his work easy for him. That's pretty much what it seems like we're doing. My point it, there's a thousand possibilities to why he lets bad things happen, don't be so narrow minded.

I am an atheist, but I suppose religion provides easy answers to some of lifes questions, such as "Why do we exist?". I think it's probably nice to think that you will go somewhere nice (assuming you go to heaven) after death too.

In my view, those things are what are known as inauthentic thinking. I really don't see what's so great about Christianity. Christian mythology makes for a cool anime series, but I'm not sure I would actually take it seriously.

It depends. There are some Christians that tell you "oh your gonna die in a fire hell bath" and you got the "you'll be saved". I just prefer not to argue and say....whatever suits you, cool with me. :cool:

So that I can argue with you in NS general forum.



You don't believe in God either last time I checked........ Why should you? Simple, it gives you easy answers to tough in life and assures you only your body with rot in the ground, your soul won't.

you wanted a tough answer?

okay:

Because "the wages of sin is death."

hehe

Go ahead, I can't wait to see what you say. Do your worst. Try and convince me to believe in God, or at least try to make me understand why you do. Be warned: I'm a ruthless debater. *g*


If you believe in God, you can...

1. Use other people's heathen, pagan, or atheist beliefs against them as an insult. Just go "you ATHEIST!" They'll be ashamed because they're not as good as you.

2. Have a chance at winning the Heaven Lottery (maybe YOU can be one of the lucky 144,000!)

3. Meet God, *AND* know the proper things to say and the right way to react! You won't be fumbling for words like those hopeless nonbelievers! Haha!

4. If you win the Heaven Lottery, you get to look down on and righteously laugh at those who didn't and who are burning, forever, in torment.

5. Ignore logic! Faith means you can finally toss aside reason, logic and rationality. Whew! Don't you feel better already?

6. SIN AS MUCH AS YOU WANT! Don't worry, God's got your back.

7. LIVE FOREVER. At least, in your SOUL. (You still lose your BODY, but apparently that doesn't matter.)

8. Ask thoughtful questions when negotiating with the heathens, like "How do you explain the world if not for God?" or "You think we came from monkeys?"

9. Know the answer to ANY question! (Eventually)

10. Stumped? Use your Prayer Hotline for some help from God! Become a millionnaire!

In my view, those things are what are known as inauthentic thinking. I really don't see what's so great about Christianity. Christian mythology makes for a cool anime series, but I'm not sure I would actually take it seriously.

For the win.

Go ahead, I can't wait to see what you say. Do your worst. Try and convince me to believe in God, or at least try to make me understand why you do. Be warned: I'm a ruthless debater. *g*
Why should I get you to believe in God? Even if I did, it will be an empty faith on your part.

You must attain faith by understanding and keeping an open-mind. Not by challenging us.

Go ahead, I can't wait to see what you say. Do your worst. Try and convince me to believe in God, or at least try to make me understand why you do. Be warned: I'm a ruthless debater. *g*

I'll make a deal with you. You prove beyond any shadow of a scientific doubt that chicken does or does not taste good and then I will tell you why you should or should not believe in God.

Go ahead, I can't wait to see what you say. Do your worst. Try and convince me to believe in God, or at least try to make me understand why you do. Be warned: I'm a ruthless debater. *g*

Well, for myself, I am a Christian because it makes more sense than anything else that I've come across yet. I know that you're going to come back with arguments for evolution and the like, but I don't buy it.

I also saw someone ask why we worship God. Once we have "passed from death to life" as Paul puts it, why wouldn't we want to thank the One who made it possible?

I'll make a deal with you. You prove beyond any shadow of a scientific doubt that chicken does or does not taste good and then I will tell you why you should or should not believe in God.

BRAVO! Well thought. I agree with you. Each to their own. It's just that in other threads concerning religion a few people kept trying to tell everyone that religion is really good for everybody. I wondered what they'd say to this question.

You don't believe in God either last time I checked........ Why should you? Simple, it gives you easy answers to tough in life and assures you only your body with rot in the ground, your soul won't.

I can also be assured that my spirit won't rot because it will move on to another body. Maybe that's part of the reason I don't like being religious: I don't like easy answers.

Basically Keruvalia summed it up. I know where my faith and my heart lay. But I am fascinated with the human mind, and I love to see how people react to this sort of thread. Especially the extremely sarcastic ones and the extremely serious ones. *g*

neither sarcastic or serious here. i am philosophically christian, for the record, who rejects many of the modern american application and cultural wrappings around it, and do not take it literally, buit figuratively (it's been translated twice, and is actually a smattering of writings of different authors. can;t take it literally. wasn;t until a priest told me i could take it as a spiritual and moral guidepost as to opposed ot literally that i could say i believe in it.

anyway, a very abbreviated path.....

darwinism. i believe in evolution, but the various holes and large gaps in pure darwinism cause dme to believe in intelligent design/evolution. ever seen a microbe, up really really close? cilia along the simplest living cells' membrane, have 7 working parts. that randomly organized? uh uh. yes, some lipids can fill with water and air and appear as a cell...but how did those pesky mitochondria form? those amino acids, 7700 interlocking proteins, all jumped together by themselves to form the simplest strand of dna we know? uh uh

big bang (in the words of beavis and butthead) uh, there was like, this nothing, and it like exploded, and then the smoke and stuff all formed stars and water and gases and they formed worlds and.....you get the point. even in high physics, the universe seems to bend science laws to work as it does. ever hear of the the theory of causality? arguable the second most important rule of science...what caused the big bang? even superstring theory, or interdimensional theory...what created the multiple dimensions?

this post has convinced not you to belive in god, but that i am a total nerd.

Good arguements! One of my favorite theories is that a divine being created the first cell, and that everything evolved from there (I'm being comepletely serious) As for the "Big Bang" theory? I have trouble figuring out why anyone would make so many planets that don't really have a purpose as far as we can tell. They're no even for ornimental purposes, 'cause we can't see half od them. Maybe an enrichment activity! Yeah! He didn't want us to get bored! ;)

Good arguements! One of my favorite theories is that a divine being created the first cell, and that everything evolved from there (I'm being comepletely serious) As for the "Big Bang" theory? I have trouble figuring out why anyone would make so many planets that don't really have a purpose as far as we can tell. They're no even for ornimental purposes, 'cause we can't see half od them. Maybe an enrichment activity! Yeah! He didn't want us to get bored! ;)

Some of them do have a purpose. For example, Jupiter's gravity keeps a lot of things in check - such as that big asteroid belt - that would otherwise try to kill us.

The solar system is a delicate balance. As for other solar systems, we've only very recently been finding those. There may be other folks there looking back at us ... plotting and scheming.

Good arguements! One of my favorite theories is that a divine being created the first cell, and that everything evolved from there (I'm being comepletely serious) As for the "Big Bang" theory? I have trouble figuring out why anyone would make so many planets that don't really have a purpose as far as we can tell. They're no even for ornimental purposes, 'cause we can't see half od them. Maybe an enrichment activity! Yeah! He didn't want us to get bored! ;)

I must disagree with you there. If we simply look at the second law of thermodynamics (entropy: everything moves towards greater disorder) we can see how evolution from single cells is in fact very difficult if not impossible. It is not really our place to understand why God does things, for how can we put the Creator of the universe into our own finite, limited, and flawed perspective of the world? As for "convincing" any one person as to believing in God, no one is going to do that, since nothing I say will really change your mind, if you're inclined not to believe. However, I will leave you with this perspective of mine.

Believing in God is not a matter of should or should not, it is not a question of personal view, it is not a matter of "what works for me", either He exists or He doesn't. Thus, you have a choice, and that choice is WILL you believe in God, not should. However, you must also acknowledge that your choice does not in fact affect whether he is there or not, for even if you choose not to believe in His existence that doesn't make Him disappear or not be there. Consider for a moment this comparison as an example, it would be the same as my saying that I do not believe in the law of gravity. Now, the question I pose to you is, does the law of gravity still apply to me despite the fact I don't believe in it? The answer is yes, I will still most likely fall towards the earth if I jump despite my unbelief. I'll leave it at that.

As I see it there's 2 kinds of believers. There is:

a) The ones that were born, raised and brought up on religion who generally don't question anything/do it because they're scared of their parents reaction

b) The ones that experience something that changes them to be more religious. Some moment of wonderment which converts them.

You can't be converted to religion per se and believe. Belief has to come to you. You can make an effort at believing, or you can ridicule it without finding out what it's about. Remember, it's much harder to believe than to mock.

I was brought up Roman Catholic, but slipped into being agnostic

Believing in God is not a matter of should or should not, it is not a question of personal view, it is not a matter of "what works for me", either He exists or He doesn't. Thus, you have a choice, and that choice is WILL you believe in God, not should. However, you must also acknowledge that your choice does not in fact affect whether he is there or not, for even if you choose not to believe in His existence that doesn't make Him disappear or not be there. Consider for a moment this comparison as an example, it would be the same as my saying that I do not believe in the law of gravity. Now, the question I pose to you is, does the law of gravity still apply to me despite the fact I don't believe in it? The answer is yes, I will still most likely fall towards the earth if I jump despite my unbelief. I'll leave it at that.


That's why I'd really like to know right now if there's a big man up there watching my every move and making plans for me that I don't like. Of course, that is almost impossible to figure out. However, I knew all that already. Read some of my past posts. You'll get the picture. I just am interested in the psycology (sp?) behind the whole religion thing.

Go ahead, I can't wait to see what you say. Do your worst. Try and convince me to believe in God, or at least try to make me understand why you do. Be warned: I'm a ruthless debater. *g*

Because it's safer. If you're an atheist and there is a god, you could end up in hell.

If you're a christian and there isn't a god, you'll end up in the same place as the atheists. :D

That's why I'd really like to know right now if there's a big man up there watching my every move and making plans for me that I don't like. Of course, that is almost impossible to figure out. However, I knew all that already. Read some of my past posts. You'll get the picture. I just am interested in the psycology (sp?) behind the whole religion thing.

About the psychology of the thing, as I said before, it just matches up better with human experience to have a God out there. And I'm not talking about the origin of the world stuff. Here's an example: people seem to believe in some sort of moral code. There is argument as to whether it is objective or subjective. Some people even seem to think that there is no morality, until you try to steal their stuff. The point is that everyone seems to believe in morality, whether we acknowledge it or not. But given an atheistic point of view, there is no basis for morality, even a subjective one.

We also seem to have some idea that there is some purpose to life. After all, some people shoot themsleves because they can't find any purpose. If you follow the atheistic premises, then there is no purpose, only chance. But with a concept of God, purpose is still possible, and with a Christian God it is a given.

If you are asking me to come up with some deductive argument with premises and a conclusion that God exists, I can't give it. I don't think that any one can. The atheistsic viewpoint does sound pretty logical, until you try to apply it to our own existence. Things just don't square up. Can God be proved? No. But is believing in God reasonable? Yes, absolutely. But in that gap between reason and proof lies faith.

Cos otherwise the boogieman will get u.

You obviously haven't put much thought into this. Why would he interfere? I beleive that life is supposed to be a test, if you pass it, you go on to a better afterlife. On your SAT's, did your teacher come up to you and say "Psst, here's the answers. Don't tell anyone ;) " I seriously doubt it. Another theory is that we were just a failure. If you're all powerful, the time period in which humans have existed isn't that long. For all you know, the dinosaurs could be the first experiment, the humans the second, and who knows what the next could be. He could be letting us destroy ourselves, making his work easy for him. That's pretty much what it seems like we're doing. My point it, there's a thousand possibilities to why he lets bad things happen, don't be so narrow minded.

All you can do is suggest to me your opinion. I just don't get why God would let us on a rampage, it seems lazy and stupid. Surely if he had gone through all the trouble of creating the earth and the dinosaurs and everything else he would at least try to salvage it. Unless he really is an evil god just playing games (http://www.armegalo.com/wrath/play.html) with us.

Because it's safer. If you're an atheist and there is a god, you could end up in hell.

If you're a christian and there isn't a god, you'll end up in the same place as the atheists. :D

See that's MY problem. I can't believe someone would give up what they believe out of fear. It's ridiculous. If your only reason for believing in God is so you can stay out of 'hell', then I don't have any respect for you. I have respect for those who can actually dedicate their lives to God for REAL reasons, however.

Besides, even if I believed in God, I would NEVER, NEVER believe in Hell. Infinite punishment for finite mistakes done by an imperfect being does not make sense to me.

All you can do is suggest to me your opinion. I just don't get why God would let us on a rampage, it seems lazy and stupid. Surely if he had gone through all the trouble of creating the earth and the dinosaurs and everything else he would at least try to salvage it. Unless he really is an evil god just playing games (http://www.armegalo.com/wrath/play.html) with us.

rofl that game was fun!

God lets us go on a rampage because we have free will. We are free to choose to believe, we are free to make all kinds of choices.

Go ahead, I can't wait to see what you say. Do your worst. Try and convince me to believe in God, or at least try to make me understand why you do. Be warned: I'm a ruthless debater. *g*
In answer to your basic question, I think you should believe in, worship, and obey God because:
a) God exists, so you should believe He exists, as accuracy in belief is always superior to inaccuracy
b) God is the most wonderful, beautiful, perfect person ever, so is worthy of our worship (here, I'm defining "to worship" as "to regard with adoration and be devoted to")
c) God knows everything that can be known, has perfect logic, and loves you more than any human can understand, so following His instuctions to you is just good sense.

I don't think I can forcibly convince you of the truth of these three statements, because all logical argument is subjective. All reasoning is based on assumptions (these might be called axioms, or beliefs, or postulates), and since each person has their own set of assumptions, the only way two people will logically agree is if their assumptions coincide enough that they accept a common set of data and a common interpretation of those data.

I believe in God, more specifically, in the Trinitarian God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) described in the Bible. I believe in God because God has led me to believe in Him, and I've gone along with it. I first consciously decided to follow Jesus in February 2000, and it's been a pretty wild ride since then!

This isn't something that humans can figure out all by themselves from first principles (partly because there are NO necessary first principles, even the Cartesian principle, "I think therefore I am" is unjustifiable), so only by God's help can we reach truth in these matters. Because so much of God's help will necessarily be subjective (as all seemingly objective events are open to differing interpretation), only by God's grace could I, or you, begin to believe in Him, and others will interpret the data differently, and come to different conclusions.

I'm not saying that all truth is relative, just that our perception of absolute truth is relative, and only God can help you to real, solid, set-your-life-on-it truth.

I pray He does this for you. I hope you're open to Him doing so.

P.S. Nice colour, but a bit difficult to read!

Go ahead, I can't wait to see what you say. Do your worst. Try and convince me to believe in God, or at least try to make me understand why you do. Be warned: I'm a ruthless debater. *g*

I have not read the other posts after your first question. You should believe in God because He exists. Are you still on to debate?

About the psychology of the thing, as I said before, it just matches up better with human experience to have a God out there. And I'm not talking about the origin of the world stuff. Here's an example: people seem to believe in some sort of moral code. There is argument as to whether it is objective or subjective. Some people even seem to think that there is no morality, until you try to steal their stuff. The point is that everyone seems to believe in morality, whether we acknowledge it or not. But given an atheistic point of view, there is no basis for morality, even a subjective one.

We also seem to have some idea that there is some purpose to life. After all, some people shoot themsleves because they can't find any purpose. If you follow the atheistic premises, then there is no purpose, only chance. But with a concept of God, purpose is still possible, and with a Christian God it is a given.

If you are asking me to come up with some deductive argument with premises and a conclusion that God exists, I can't give it. I don't think that any one can. The atheistsic viewpoint does sound pretty logical, until you try to apply it to our own existence. Things just don't square up. Can God be proved? No. But is believing in God reasonable? Yes, absolutely. But in that gap between reason and proof lies faith.


My problem is that I don't believe I need someone else to give me purpose in life. I think I said this in another thread, but I'll say it again: I live my life in the best way I can, try to make a difference in the world because I want the people who live after me to have a good life. I don't live this way because I'm afraid I might go to hell if I don't. You don't need somebody to worship to have a purpose in life. At least I don't.

And also, it's not just atheists who believe in evolution, as I assume that's what you're referring to. Many religious people do, to. They believe that a "God" created the first cells, and we evolved from there. A lot of the creationists' theory doesn't add up, either, but I won't get into that here.

I'm not saying that all truth is relative, just that our perception of absolute truth is relative, and only God can help you to real, solid, set-your-life-on-it truth.

I don't see it that way. I think it is entirely possible to find truth without a "God". Because I know it is important to you, I thank you for your blessing, and hope that you live your life in the best way you can and that no one can take that away from you. And thanks for the compliment on my color choice. I didn't think it was that hard to read, was it?

God lets us go on a rampage because we have free will. We are free to choose to believe, we are free to make all kinds of choices.

So if I torch a whole orphanage, He won't lift a finger because my free will means more to Him than those dozens of orphans?

Go ahead, I can't wait to see what you say. Do your worst. Try and convince me to believe in God, or at least try to make me understand why you do. Be warned: I'm a ruthless debater. *g*

*sigh* Why not? I have all night. :D

Because you will suffer everlasting punishment.

Go ahead, I can't wait to see what you say. Do your worst. Try and convince me to believe in God, or at least try to make me understand why you do. Be warned: I'm a ruthless debater. *g*

A sophist maybe? Anyway, I'm not going to tell you to believe in God, that's up to you. However, I will tell you not to go around telleng people why they should't. I will ask you though, what is 'God'?

My problem is that I don't believe I need someone else to give me purpose in life. I think I said this in another thread, but I'll say it again: I live my life in the best way I can, try to make a difference in the world because I want the people who live after me to have a good life. I don't live this way because I'm afraid I might go to hell if I don't. You don't need somebody to worship to have a purpose in life. At least I don't.

And also, it's not just atheists who believe in evolution, as I assume that's what you're referring to. Many religious people do, to. They believe that a "God" created the first cells, and we evolved from there. A lot of the creationists' theory doesn't add up, either, but I won't get into that here.



I don't see it that way. I think it is entirely possible to find truth without a "God". Because I know it is important to you, I thank you for your blessing, and hope that you live your life in the best way you can and that no one can take that away from you. And thanks for the compliment on my color choice. I didn't think it was that hard to read, was it?

"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law."
Aristotle, from Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers

Have you considered philosophy?

Go ahead, I can't wait to see what you say. Do your worst. Try and convince me to believe in God, or at least try to make me understand why you do. Be warned: I'm a ruthless debater. *g*
You should believe in God for the free pie.
Oh wait, no, that's TWitches.
I get them confused so easily...

Surely, if Uldaedia is a "ruthless debater" he has a basic grasp of the tenets of philosophy. :)

Surely, if Uldaedia is a "ruthless debater" he has a basic grasp of the tenets of philosophy. :)

No, other way 'round. The philosopher has a basic grasp of the tenets of debate. ;)

Because I said so foo'.

No, other way 'round. The philosopher has a basic grasp of the tenets of debate. ;)

Ah. There doesn't seem to be much use for those in the General forum. ;)

Ah. There doesn't seem to be much use for those in the General forum. ;)

Philosophers or Debaters?

Philosophers or Debaters?

I was referring to the tenets of debate, but my statement could easily apply to both philosophers and debaters.

I was referring to the tenets of debate, but my statement could easily apply to both philosophers and debaters.
Ahhhh... I see :D Perhaps that's due to most people in the forums spending so much time debating that they become mass debaters. :D

Ahhhh... I see :D Perhaps that's due to most people in the forums spending so much time debating that they become mass debaters. :D

Indeed. :D

I do hope that Uldaedia gets back to this thread soon, so I can see if he's truly a "ruthless mass debater". ;) I certainly gave him an opportunity to prove it. :)

Because all the gods are a race of extra terrestrial beings who derive their strength from the psychic energy of humans. The more people who believe in them the stronger they get. Prayers really focuses the energy.

Unfortunately, some of these beings (such as ancient Greek, Roman, and Mesopotamian deities for example) have died due to starvation because it has been so long since anyone believed in them.

Remember, only you can save god(s).

Debate science:
www.creationists.org

It is purely subjective and cannot be proven but I would offer this to consider, One of these 2 options must be true

1. Something can spring from nothing or in other words matter can spontanouesly self-arrive. Something can bring itself into existence is another way to put it. I do not believe this.

2. A state of eternity exists. I hold to this tenet either matter has always existed ( the only other option is above) or God has always existed and He created matter?? Since lifeforms that we see have a begining here I happen to embrace the theory that God has always existed A state of eternity exists I believe this to be true over option 1. I also tend to see a design to things things are not chaotic and if they are then it is a controlled chaos (IMO)

Now considering the information above I think it is rather easy to believe in God in fact it is easier than the other options.

1. God exists and is in a state of eternal existence
2. Matter is in a state of eternal existence
3. Something can spring from nothing.

I embrace option #1 That God is eternal. I could go into a lengthy arguement of how the evidence also supports option #1 rather than the other options but one of them must be true.

In a completely different debate Who is God? Is the bible the accurate description of God or some other book? Is it a combination of books that point to God? Is christianity correct Islam? Taoist? Mormon? etc etc ad nauseum!!

That's why I'd really like to know right now if there's a big man up there watching my every move and making plans for me that I don't like. Of course, that is almost impossible to figure out. However, I knew all that already. Read some of my past posts. You'll get the picture. I just am interested in the psycology (sp?) behind the whole religion thing.

The psycology behind religion, eh? Well, it depends which one. Mainly, followers are brainwashed in order to maintain power and stability. In this modern world, this is less often the case. Religion offers people morals based on work beginning thosands of years before Aristotle and the founding of science. It offers the support and comfort of long lasting tradition. Also, it appeals to the mainly neglected part of humanity, spirit and, to a lesser extent, emotion. Religion fills a hole in peoples lives. Many people are happy to stuff anything in there without a second thought, some ponder vastly on the subject. But, all in all, that's the purpose of Religion. How's that?

In a completely different debate Who is God? Is the bible the accurate description of God or some other book? Is it a combination of books that point to God? Is christianity correct Islam? Taoist? Mormon? etc etc ad nauseum!!

Surly the God of the three faiths is the one and the same. Taoism... now it gets interresting. Taoism incoperates philosophy and religion. In this sense, 'God' is more the resolution or ultimate truth than a single entity. Hinduism: Different again, but I'd say closer to the faiths of Abraham. Ultimately though, at the highest levels of mystical thinking, God becomes the same, life becomes the same. They are all just different aspects of exactly the same thing.

It's not realistic to beileve that the world was created by chance. Has anything ever created itself without someone else creating it?

It's not realistic to beileve that the world was created by chance. Has anything ever created itself without someone else creating it?

Where did you see someone creating mountains? Trees?

Besides, if everything has a creator, then who created God, hmmm?

It's not realistic to beileve that the world was created by chance. Has anything ever created itself without someone else creating it?

I don't know, but things can recreate themselves in order to adapt to changing external environments.

I don't know, but things can recreate themselves in order to adapt to changing external environments.

things can adapt but things don't create themselves

Where did you see someone creating mountains? Trees?

Besides, if everything has a creator, then who created God, hmmm?

You do realize that you just attacked atheism right? Atheists say that the universe started out as particles and molocules. Where did the particles and molocules come from?

Where did you see someone creating mountains? Trees?

Did you see the Big Bang so how can that be proven? We can't ever do anything to prove atheiem but cities in the Bible that people thought never existed like Jericho have been found so we have proven parts of the Bible. Yet nobodys ever proven atheism.

You do realize that you just attacked atheism right? Atheists say that the universe started out as particles and molocules. Where did the particles and molocules come from?

1. I never attacked atheism in that post. Nor would it be of any consequence if I did, because I'm a theist, not an atheist.

2. Even theists like myself can premise that the universe started out "as particles and molecules."

3. The particles and molecules did not necessarily have to "come from" anywhere.

Did you see the Big Bang so how can that be proven?

It can't be. It can only be inferred from available evidence.

3. The particles and molecules did not necessarily have to "come from" anywhere.

You asked who created God. Where did the things that created the universe the particles,etc come from. Your saying that we can't prove Christianity becuase of the "who created God" question the same propblem goes for Theism

It can't be. It can only be inferred from available evidence

what evidence?

what evidence?

I have no idea. Who knows what those crazy scientists do with their theories and experiments?

Pascal's Wager. Sure, it doesn't convince me, but still, it's one reason that is logically irrefutable.

Because it's safer. If you're an atheist and there is a god, you could end up in hell.

If you're a christian and there isn't a god, you'll end up in the same place as the atheists. :D

Isn't the first essentially short for the second?

And isn't that argument hinged on a dichotomous (Either/or. Look it up.) choice, options being vengeful Catholic god or none at all? How well does the argument hold with all the faiths and beliefs in existence, or just all the organised religions we know about? Certainly that mixes up the odds quite a bit more than 50pct chance of "God exists and lays the ever-loving smack down on anyone who didn't believe in ver and keep vis laws" and 50pct chance of "No god, no afterlife, you're boned after your life goes".


Because all the gods are a race of extra terrestrial beings who derive their strength from the psychic energy of humans. The more people who believe in them the stronger they get. Prayers really focuses the energy.

Unfortunately, some of these beings (such as ancient Greek, Roman, and Mesopotamian deities for example) have died due to starvation because it has been so long since anyone believed in them.

Remember, only you can save god(s).

Very Planescape.

In any case... according to current working quantum physical theory, particles and equal antiparticles (like electron-positron pairs, or maybe something even smaller) spawn and self-destruct as pairs all the time ... or at least, that is the conclusion gathered by the interactions of these particles near massive gravity wells (read: black holes)... so matter does sort of come into existence spontaneously, though it only sticks around in an excruciatingly slow fashion.

Granted, this probably isn't enough to create a sufficiently unrandom volume for the matter as such to gather nicely into the galaxies et al. we see today (though you'd only need it to happen once), but at this point and given there probably isn't any time constraint on the universe, it may be worth looking into.

More probably, though, we simply don't understand our own universe enough, and the only way to resolve the issue is to actually grok our reality. Problem, there, though: the theory (probably attributable to Douglas Adams) that, should we actually manage to discover the nature of the universe, that it would immediately reform itself into or be replaced by something entirely more bizarre, and that there's no telling how many times this has since happened.

You asked who created God. Where did the things that created the universe the particles,etc come from. Your saying that we can't prove Christianity becuase of the "who created God" question the same propblem goes for Theism

Eh? That same problem certainly does go for theism.

Eh? That same problem certainly does go for theism.

I repeat nothing in Athaism or Theism has been proven but things in the Bible have

I repeat nothing in Athaism or Theism has been proven but things in the Bible have

1.) I have a sneaking suspicion that you don't know what theism is. Theism is a belief in God, which is what I have. You are correct that theism has never been proven, and that atheism has never been proven. However, that point does not seem relevant.

2.) Hypothetical Situation: There is a book, and there were 100 claim in this book. Twenty-five of the claims were proven true. Can we assert with certainty that the other seventy-five claims are true?

Did you see the Big Bang so how can that be proven? We can't ever do anything to prove atheiem but cities in the Bible that people thought never existed like Jericho have been found so we have proven parts of the Bible. Yet nobodys ever proven atheism.

Mmmm... They dug up Troy to you know. I'm certainly not an atheist, but practically everything in the science textbooks is 'proven' much more directly than parts of the bible. It is impossable to 'prove' either. Though, it is odd that 'proof', used in the scientific mannor is unavaliable for the scientific theory of creation, whilst the 'religious' theory is absolutley proven to those who follow that religion.

I repeat nothing in Athaism or Theism has been proven but things in the Bible have

I think you mean that the existance of God has been neither proven nor disproven.

Go ahead, I can't wait to see what you say. Do your worst. Try and convince me to believe in God, or at least try to make me understand why you do. Be warned: I'm a ruthless debater. *g*

It is good to see there are other confused or people to debate this subject with. This is my first forum post.

I grew up in a family that didn't go to church althogh my dad's side is catholic, they don't go now. So as a kid i went occasionally but very seldom.

I now attend a Methodist college, didn't go for the religion but for the
education. I am a Chemistry major with a double-minor in math and physics. I have come to realize that everything that exists in this world can be calculated, we just don't have the computing power, or the knowledge to do so. Physics explains why and how thing happen. And i have come to realize that everything revolves around energy. People make decisions to find an equillibrium in their own energy (People make decisions to make them "happy") This happiness is just a world that means they found an energy level with which they are comfortable.

Humans realize that we are sooooo alone. So alone in fact evolution has given us someone to talk to, our conscience. This conscience never upsets or argues with us. Regret, sometimes we do things that we do not wish to do (jeopardizing our balance in energy), but we do these things because if we don't, the guilt is too hard to handle therefore we are influenced by it. People say God allows them to do what is right, however people make decisions based on what makes them happy and what is NOT going to influence their MOOD (energy) to swing the most.

So I beleive people beleive in God, to either fall in with the group, so their mind doesn't have to ponder the question of why they are on earth, or to reconcile with the pain they are going through (kind of their is a better place than where i am in my life, kind of thing). These three things allow the mind to be at ease and find balance.

Sorry for the length, had to get it off my chest.

It is good to see there are other confused or people to debate this subject with. This is my first forum post.

I grew up in a family that didn't go to church althogh my dad's side is catholic, they don't go now. So as a kid i went occasionally but very seldom.

I now attend a Methodist college, didn't go for the religion but for the
education. I am a Chemistry major with a double-minor in math and physics. I have come to realize that everything that exists in this world can be calculated, we just don't have the computing power, or the knowledge to do so. Physics explains why and how thing happen. And i have come to realize that everything revolves around energy. People make decisions to find an equillibrium in their own energy (People make decisions to make them "happy") This happiness is just a world that means they found an energy level with which they are comfortable.

Humans realize that we are sooooo alone. So alone in fact evolution has given us someone to talk to, our conscience. This conscience never upsets or argues with us. Regret, sometimes we do things that we do not wish to do (jeopardizing our balance in energy), but we do these things because if we don't, the guilt is too hard to handle therefore we are influenced by it. People say God allows them to do what is right, however people make decisions based on what makes them happy and what is NOT going to influence their MOOD (energy) to swing the most.

So I beleive people beleive in God, to either fall in with the group, so their mind doesn't have to ponder the question of why they are on earth, or to reconcile with the pain they are going through (kind of their is a better place than where i am in my life, kind of thing). These three things allow the mind to be at ease and find balance.

Sorry for the length, had to get it off my chest.

Seldom - a seldom used word. I'm glad you used it. Congrats. As for your point of view on the matter, I think you're pretty much spot on. Speaking of catholisism, does anyone know where I could find a copy of the Vulgate?

Seldom - a seldom used word. I'm glad you used it. Congrats. As for your point of view on the matter, I think you're pretty much spot on. Speaking of catholisism, does anyone know where I could find a copy of the Vulgate?

What an odd request. In any case, you might want to go to a very large parish and take a look at the gift shop. Or request a copy from the Vatican. They would probably be quite amenable to providing you with it, for a small fee, of course.

My problem is that I don't believe I need someone else to give me purpose in life. I think I said this in another thread, but I'll say it again: I live my life in the best way I can, try to make a difference in the world because I want the people who live after me to have a good life. I don't live this way because I'm afraid I might go to hell if I don't. You don't need somebody to worship to have a purpose in life. At least I don't.

And also, it's not just atheists who believe in evolution, as I assume that's what you're referring to. Many religious people do, to. They believe that a "God" created the first cells, and we evolved from there. A lot of the creationists' theory doesn't add up, either, but I won't get into that here.


I'm glad to hear that you've found a purpose in life. You're way ahead of a good chunk of the population. You are also correct that you don't have to worship someone to have a purpose. But what I meant is that the whole concept of purpose makes no sense without the concept of God. Suppose for a moment that evolution and atheism are true. That means that everyone on this planet is just a cosmic accident. Accidents, by definition, have no purpose. God not only gives us purpose, He makes purpose possible.

The same applies to morality. We can each come up with a way that we can decide to live, and there would be no one to tell us that we're wrong. But there would also be no one to tell us that we are right. Not only does absolute morality collapse, relative morality also collapses. And yet, we all still seem to think that there is such a thing as morality, even if it is relative.

In short, God not only makes it easier to live, but He allows us to live the way that so many of us take for granted. For more information on this line of reasoning, I suggest The God Who Is There, Escape From Reason, and He Is There And He Is Not Silent by Francis Schaeffer.

What an odd request. In any case, you might want to go to a very large parish and take a look at the gift shop. Or request a copy from the Vatican. They would probably be quite amenable to providing you with it, for a small fee, of course.

I'll give that a go, but I don't think catholics use the Vulgate anymore, they use the new international bible (or whatever it is.)

I'll give that a go, but I don't think catholics use the Vulgate anymore, they use the new international bible (or whatever it is.)

That's precisely why I suggested you go to a large parish, where it's more likely to be found among a larger and broader selection. Because Catholics are allowed to use native-language translations (probably since the Vatican Council 2), the Vulgate has declined rather sharply in terms of its use. By the way, there are many different versions of the bible that are approved for individual Catholics to use. I'm not sure which version is used at Mass, though. Lectionary sources are probably more standardized, as most liturgical things are.

That's precisely why I suggested you go to a large parish, where it's more likely to be found among a larger and broader selection. Because Catholics are allowed to use native-language translations (probably since the Vatican Council 2), the Vulgate has declined rather sharply in terms of its use. By the way, there are many different versions of the bible that are approved for individual Catholics to use. I'm not sure which version is used at Mass, though. Lectionary sources are probably more standardized, as most liturgical things are.

OK, thanks.

I must disagree with you there. If we simply look at the second law of thermodynamics (entropy: everything moves towards greater disorder) we can see how evolution from single cells is in fact very difficult if not impossible.


Actualy, that is a common misconception. Entropy has nothing to do with disorder. Rather, it is a measureable phenomon of energy loss. Basicly, it means that no form of energy conversion is perfect, some will always be lost to the enviroment. This lost energy can't be retrieved without expending greater energy. However, this onlt matters in a closed system. Because the Earth constantly recieves energy from the Sun entropy does not immediatly constrain life on Earth.
In laymen's terms, the second law of thermodynamics states that if you don't eat you'll die. It in no way effect's evolution, except to push it to favor those forms that can gather food more easily.

And the second law of thermodynamics quoted, (in the quote in the above post), excludes the essential "in a closed system". Since our planet is not a closed system, (the sun; meteors; God's little finger etc.), the second law bears almost no relevance to evolution whatsoever.. (hear hear Karas!)

According to the quantum theory of time we 'just exist': there was no beginning, there will be no end, there is no 'objective' now - we just exist. According to the apparently nonsensical theory existence - or 'being' - is static: since this is difficult to explain without going on for pages and pages...I won't try. (if you suddently discover a deep passionate desire to read anywhere between 2000 words and 700 pages, I can send you documents!!).

This leads to the idea that consciousness is but an illusion...created by our 'current' perception in the context of, (compared to), our memories repeated in an infinite number of infinitely small frames, (hence, time is quantum, like light).

The positive ramifications of such a theory being valid would be...well...we would all exist 'forever'..:D I did not like this theory much when i first looked at it but the evidence.. (blah blah).

But the idea of God watching over us, and the promise of eternity in paradise, is certainly a nice thought. *mmmmm, paradise*. (tasty!)

In laymen's terms, the second law of thermodynamics states that if you don't eat you'll die. It in no way effect's evolution, except to push it to favor those forms that can gather food more easily.
Not even. In North America, where food can be most easily found --fatty, sweet, oily and junk foods found on every street corner --the incidents of obesity and its related health concerns, like heart attack, are far greater. So evolution would push towards a happy medium, I would think.

Actualy, that is a common misconception. Entropy has nothing to do with disorder. Rather, it is a measureable phenomon of energy loss. Basicly, it means that no form of energy conversion is perfect, some will always be lost to the enviroment. This lost energy can't be retrieved without expending greater energy. However, this onlt matters in a closed system. Because the Earth constantly recieves energy from the Sun entropy does not immediatly constrain life on Earth.
In laymen's terms, the second law of thermodynamics states that if you don't eat you'll die. It in no way effect's evolution, except to push it to favor those forms that can gather food more easily.

Entropy has everything to do with disorder, what are you talking about? There is no phenomenon in regards to energy loss unless your talking about Einstein's E=MC^2. You can't take a universal scientific law and just limit it to one thing when it obviously applies to everything. That's like saying that gravity doesn't exist in space.

Not even. In North America, where food can be most easily found --fatty, sweet, oily and junk foods found on every street corner --the incidents of obesity and its related health concerns, like heart attack, are far greater. So evolution would push towards a happy medium, I would think.
Food that was very scarce even a few decades ago, and is still scarce in much of the world. One had to consume as much of this food when you could find it and then store it all in fat tissues because you didn't know when you would come across it again. That's how it was for hundreds of thousands of years. Industrialized foods have been around, what? 50 years? 60?

In the case of humans the change of behavior and social and cultural pressures are much more important and act much faster than chemical and physical adaptation. Only if the ingestion of enormous amounts of fatty, salty foods become a matter of species survival (which means that you can still die at 25, enough time to have three or four kids) then you will see evolutionary changes.

Evolution is not magic, and it just doesn't happen like flipping a switch. And since it's blind it doesn't always follow the best path, but the one of least resistence.

What an odd request. In any case, you might want to go to a very large parish and take a look at the gift shop. Or request a copy from the Vatican. They would probably be quite amenable to providing you with it, for a small fee, of course.
I was once looking for a copy...
I had an interesting incident where the priest of one church did not want to let me in the door after I let my tongue slip on what exactly my religion was. It was a rather embarrassing incident, and I made sure to leave with great speed. Eventully I got it off a friend.

Entropy has everything to do with disorder, what are you talking about? There is no phenomenon in regards to energy loss unless your talking about Einstein's E=MC^2. You can't take a universal scientific law and just limit it to one thing when it obviously applies to everything. That's like saying that gravity doesn't exist in space.
On the contrary. Entropy has nothing to do with disorder. It is a law of thermodynamics, which means it has to do with energy. The first law maintains that the energy in a closed system is neither created nor destroyed. That is, there is always the same amount of energy in a closed system.

The second law of thermodynamics says that for an irreversible process (like a glass of water that gets cold, you can heat it up again, but that requires adding energy to it, which means opening the system) part of the energy goes into the environment and can't be recovered. This is what's called entropy. So, the system conserves the total amound of energy, but some part of it is now unusable.

Now, things will tend to stay at the most efficient energy state they can find. Take a ball precariously equilibrated at the top of a mountain. It will tend to stay there, totally immobile until you add energy to it, say you kick it. Then it will roll down the mountain converting its potential energy into kinetikal until it comes at a stop at the bottom, where it will be most efficient for it to stay.

It spent a lot of energy to entropy getting to the bottom, which means that it won't go back to the top by itself, unless you add more energy and kick back to the top.

Same thing with the Universe, it's rolling down the mountain and is a closed system. But earth is an open system, since the sun is constantly kicking it up the mountain. The sun itself is rolling down the mountain, though. When it gets to the bottom it will stay there, and earth will start to roll down too, rather quickly.

Do you understand entropy better now?

I was once looking for a copy...
I had an interesting incident where the priest of one church did not want to let me in the door after I let my tongue slip on what exactly my religion was. It was a rather embarrassing incident, and I made sure to leave with great speed. Eventully I got it off a friend.

What exactly is that, your religion?

I'm glad to hear that you've found a purpose in life. You're way ahead of a good chunk of the population. You are also correct that you don't have to worship someone to have a purpose. But what I meant is that the whole concept of purpose makes no sense without the concept of God. Suppose for a moment that evolution and atheism are true. That means that everyone on this planet is just a cosmic accident. Accidents, by definition, have no purpose. God not only gives us purpose, He makes purpose possible.

I disagree here. I think it is consciousness and not God that makes purpose. It all boils down to the question: "is there all there is? am I only this?" (think Spock in the Star Trek I movie). A person who believes in God will answer "No, there is more" and will live her life according to what her religion tells her is THE purpose.

A person who does not believe in a God will answer no, and will pick a purpose for her life according to what she thinks is best.

Therefore, purpose is only in the mind of the people who think about it. They can either decide that their purpose is going to be serving a particular religion or they can pick one for themselves.

For example, my purpose is to have a long life with few regrets and mostly happy moments, one that people can remember as nice. It doesn't require a god and, of course, doesn't involve any spirits. And it has the advantage of not having to wait until you're dead to find out whether you lived up to your purpose or not.

I disagree here. I think it is consciousness and not God that makes purpose. It all boils down to the question: "is there all there is? am I only this?" (think Spock in the Star Trek I movie). A person who believes in God will answer "No, there is more" and will live her life according to what her religion tells her is THE purpose.

A person who does not believe in a God will answer no, and will pick a purpose for her life according to what she thinks is best.

Therefore, purpose is only in the mind of the people who think about it. They can either decide that their purpose is going to be serving a particular religion or they can pick one for themselves.

For example, my purpose is to have a long life with few regrets and mostly happy moments, one that people can remember as nice. It doesn't require a god and, of course, doesn't involve any spirits. And it has the advantage of not having to wait until you're dead to find out whether you lived up to your purpose or not.

No offense, but I don't think that wanting to be happy can count as a purpose. It seems to be human nature to want to be happy. This is nothing special. When I speak of purpose, it along the lines of, "What am I here for? Is there some task for me to accomplish?" That sort of thing goes out the window completely when you start believing that we are all just cosmic accidents.

On a side note, the usual humanistic/atheistic perspective doesn't give much of an explaination for consciousness, either. The only thing that I have heard of along those lines is just chemical reactions giving us the illusion of awareness. Seems kind of sad to me.

No offense, but I don't think that wanting to be happy can count as a purpose. It seems to be human nature to want to be happy. This is nothing special. When I speak of purpose, it along the lines of, "What am I here for? Is there some task for me to accomplish?" That sort of thing goes out the window completely when you start believing that we are all just cosmic accidents.


Yes, precisely that. "What am I here for?" To live a mostly happy life that can be remembered as good. "Is there some task for me to accomplish?" Several, but they're more like goals and things you do to get you closer to number 1.

What difference will that make in the cosmic state of things? Well, absolutely none. But will allow you to feel like you haven't wasted your life.

But if you start to talk about cosmic scale, then yes, the idea of a god gives you more solace. Atheists live knowing that they won't make a difference whatsoever and that nothing they do is going to matter in one billion years, which is like a second for the universe. But an atheist will be happy with that, knowing that at least he will have lived a life as full as can be without having his thought tied by baseless beliefs.

Believers can at least think that their adherence to a system of beliefs will be rewarded in the afterlife and that they will have made a difference.

Currently we have no way to say which is right and which is wrong. Particularly since believers hold on to more than one system of beliefs. We probably will never know for sure.

On a side note, the usual humanistic/atheistic perspective doesn't give much of an explaination for consciousness, either. The only thing that I have heard of along those lines is just chemical reactions giving us the illusion of awareness. Seems kind of sad to me.
That's right. Consciousness hasn't been explained yet by science. But that doesn't mean that it won't be explained one day. And perhaps it will be kind of sad to discover that we're nothing but a very complex electromagentic phenomenon; or perhaps it will be thrilling. The ride will surely be interesting.

Believe, or the God will eat you.

http://lis.librarium-online.com/comics/041222.jpg

See what happens when I go away? It turns into another evolution or creationism thread. *sigh*

Anyway, HotRodia, I'm female ;) and I didn't think you posted much for me to debate on, did you? "because you'll be eternally punished" or whatever you said is nothing but an opinion on the matter of what is right and what is not, whether or not God exists, and so on. And opinions don't go over well in debates.

I'm not in high school yet but I study on my own computer extensively and plan on taking philosophy in the future, maybe even majoring in it.

I don't remember who asked this, but the "God" I was referring to is the basic Christian-type God. Just because that one seems to be the most popular. *g*

Personally, if there is something up there I'd think it would be a God and a Goddess. Seems smarter to me. It's kind of hard to have "children" without one of the two.

http://www.ghoststudy.com/monthly/aug04/asylum.htm

This is why. To prevent thing like things showing up at your house at night.


lol im only joking. Dont believe in him if you want to. I dont care anymore :)

Go ahead, I can't wait to see what you say. Do your worst. Try and convince me to believe in God, or at least try to make me understand why you do. Be warned: I'm a ruthless debater. *g*
ever notice how the arguments for God-belief sound a lot like the arguments you hear from drug pushers in middle school?

c'mon, believe! everybody's doing it. could millions of people be wrong? see how much they like it? it feels really really good! if you do it you will be suffused with well-being, you'll feel special, your perception of the world will change, and you will be able to believe in eternal life, demons, magic, and all sorts of crazy fun things. when you have a tough stretch in your life, just turn to faith to get you through it, because dependence is normal and everybody gives in to it. c'mon, everybody's doing it.

ever notice how the arguments for God-belief sound a lot like the arguments you hear from drug pushers in middle school?

c'mon, believe! everybody's doing it. could millions of people be wrong? see how much they like it? it feels really really good! if you do it you will be suffused with well-being, you'll feel special, your perception of the world will change, and you will be able to believe in eternal life, demons, magic, and all sorts of crazy fun things. when you have a tough stretch in your life, just turn to faith to get you through it, because dependence is normal and everybody gives in to it. c'mon, everybody's doing it.
:p
Another gem from Bottle.
You have such interesting points...

:p
Another gem from Bottle.
You have such interesting points...
i hear many religious people pushing God like so much philosophical smack. "it makes everything so much simpler! you won't have to feel alone any more! you will always have something to use to get through the bad times! i know i couldn't get through life without my God-fix! come huff some Spirit with us, it takes away the pain and makes you feel loved forever and ever!"

"All religions are true, but none are literal."

Joseph Campbell

i hear many religious people pushing God like so much philosophical smack. "it makes everything so much simpler! you won't have to feel alone any more! you will always have something to use to get through the bad times! i know i couldn't get through life without my God-fix! come huff some Spirit with us, it takes away the pain and makes you feel loved forever and ever!"
What I've heard lately sounds more like a Mafia boss. "You're gonna do a job for our Boss. And you're gonna obey him no matter what. Cause our Boss doesn't like being disobeyed. If you don't do it, he'll hit you. And he'll hit you while you're down. Just when you're least expecting it, BAM!"

What I've heard lately sounds more like a Mafia boss. "You're gonna do a job for our Boss. And you're gonna obey him no matter what. Cause our Boss doesn't like being disobeyed. If you don't do it, he'll hit you. And he'll hit you while you're down. Just when you're least expecting it, BAM!"

Everyone Kiss Hank's Ass!

http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.mv

Everyone Kiss Hank's Ass!

http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.mv
Hee, I love those.
http://www.wunderland.com/WTS/Ginohn/cetera/hankisms.html
That has lots of them.

EDIT: As an aside...
HOLY FUCK!
Somebody else that reads www.jhuger.com!
Nobody I've ever talked to has ever heard of it!

What I've heard lately sounds more like a Mafia boss. "You're gonna do a job for our Boss. And you're gonna obey him no matter what. Cause our Boss doesn't like being disobeyed. If you don't do it, he'll hit you. And he'll hit you while you're down. Just when you're least expecting it, BAM!"
zounds, you're exactly right. it's the ultimate shakedown! "you won't know where, you won't know when, but our Boss never forgets. he'll come after you and yours to the seventh generation. you've seen what he did to the Asians, and don't think he's run out of tsunamis...he's got a special one with your name on it."

I have no clue Im trying to figure it out for myself I think your just going to have to do it your self.

Hee, I love those.
http://www.wunderland.com/WTS/Ginohn/cetera/hankisms.html
That has lots of them.

EDIT: As an aside...
HOLY FUCK!
Somebody else that reads www.jhuger.com!
Nobody I've ever talked to has ever heard of it!


Catholicism - Hank will give you a million dollars when you leave town, if he feels like it. We think that if you kiss his ass you're more likely to get the million, but it's completely up to him. Oh, and he might kick the shit out of you before he gives you the million dollars. If you want to help other people kiss Hank's ass, you are not allowed to eat wieners, not even in a bun. Karl has Hank's phone number, so nobody is allowed to question Karl's decisions, no matter how strange they may seem. By the way, we have old, elaborate buildings that you can use to kiss Hank's ass.

That is great

Eh? That same problem certainly does go for theism.

Eh? Theism? :-

Definition from Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)
Theism \The"ism\ (th[=e]"[i^]z'm), n. [NL. & E. thea tea +
-ism.] (Med.)
The morbid condition resulting from the excessive use of tea.

I think it is a problem in itself ;)

Now, I have a interesting twist, not that I can prove it or will debate for it, but is a thought I've had...

First, I'm an atheist, I've read parts of the bible, I'm both baptized and confirmed(whatever it's called in english, my native tongue is swedish) but I've lost the very little faith I had then, anyway, to the twist.

I don't belive in free will, on any level.
I think free will is only an illusion created by our intellects.

What we do and all the choices we make are not made up by "God" or any higher entity but of our past and our genes, all the experiences we've had in our whole life adds up to what we are and at some point, subconcious or overconcious, makes the decisions based soley on our heritage and our genetics.
This would give our concious mind the illusion of free will but in reality there's only one option at any given choice, it can be the choice if to belive or not, which icecream to pick or favorite color, the choices we make are made up of our past and our heritage.

Now, there's no way to really disprove nor prove this so I won't try, it's just snacks for your brains, think about it ;)
And really, it doesn't matter if we have free will or not aslong as we have the perfect illusion of it, and indeed it is a perfect illusion.

This was a sidetrack though, as for the god/no god dillemma, no one can prove god nor disprove him/her/it/whatever, belivers can always belive and non-belivers can't prove them wrong, and vice versa.
As for reasons to belive, it surely gives some people stability in life while others manage just fine without having any higher purpose than random chance of existence.
I'm comfortable with evolving from apes, I'm comfortable with just dissapearing when I die and I'm comfortable with living my life at my own terms(even though I really don't have a choice;))

As for the morality issue previously discussed, there are several reasons for morality without a God;
1. We are social creatures and our society has set rules based on common sense and the well of the masses.
2. Our heritage has in almost all cases at some point been subject to religion and the moral standars has survived throughout the generations even if the religion changes or dissapears since the general rules(thou shall not steal, murder, commit adultery and so on) works in our society.

Of course there are people who refuse to live by the moral standards, for whatever reason, there has always been and always will be.
The vast majority will however submit to the rules that works and benefits most people.

Uhh, this got lengthy, my appologies for any spelling and gramatical errors, I'm sure there's plenty, I hope my message got through though.

Belive what you will aslong as you accept my view on the world, I won't try to convert religious people to atheism if you don't try to convert me.

Peace out,
Adam.

See what happens when I go away? It turns into another evolution or creationism thread. *sigh*

Indeed. I tried to extricate myself and the thread from that point. I think I was successful in doing so.

Anyway, HotRodia, I'm female ;) and I didn't think you posted much for me to debate on, did you?

As to my use of the masculine pronoun...I just use that as the default singular pronoun, what with English being a horribly sexist gendered language and all. From now on I will use the feminine pronoun, since you have expressed your sexual identity.

"because you'll be eternally punished" or whatever you said is nothing but an opinion on the matter of what is right and what is not, whether or not God exists, and so on. And opinions don't go over well in debates.

See, you are a ruthless debater! :)

Personally, if there is something up there I'd think it would be a God and a Goddess. Seems smarter to me. It's kind of hard to have "children" without one of the two.

coughasexualreproductioncough

I don't belive in free will, on any level.
I think free will is only an illusion created by our intellects.
...
As for the morality issue previously discussed, there are several reasons for morality without a God;
1. We are social creatures and our society has set rules based on common sense and the well of the masses.
2. Our heritage has in almost all cases at some point been subject to religion and the moral standars has survived throughout the generations even if the religion changes or dissapears since the general rules(thou shall not steal, murder, commit adultery and so on) works in our society.
...
Of course there are people who refuse to live by the moral standards, for whatever reason, there has always been and always will be.
The vast majority will however submit to the rules that works and benefits most people.
...

You have a major contradiction in there. It is flat-out impossible to have morality without free will. After all, you can't hold someone responsible for something that he had no control over. Even the illusion of of freedom will not help you on this one.

This was a sidetrack though, as for the god/no god dillemma, no one can prove god nor disprove him/her/it/whatever, belivers can always belive and non-belivers can't prove them wrong, and vice versa.

That's a common misconception, because you CAN, in fact, prove someone wron,g it's just up to them to believe it. It's just like in a normal debate, but the god-believers usually end up saying something stupid like "ya just gotta have faith" instead of admitting they were wrong.



:fluffle: :sniper:

That's a common misconception, because you CAN, in fact, prove someone wron,g it's just up to them to believe it. It's just like in a normal debate, but the god-believers usually end up saying something stupid like "ya just gotta have faith" instead of admitting they were wrong.



:fluffle: :sniper:
Incorrect … convincing them != PROVING

Faith can only be proved if it is acted upon by the individual person. Thinking of all these doctrines in your mind is not going to prove anything until it is brought into reality. In order to be transformed by the renewing of your mind you must make a decision based on the commands of Jesus Christ the Truth. Those decisions will prove to you and you only that what you have in your heart is reality. Objective thinking will disconnect you from reality. You are part of God's Creation, you must act in it, or become nothing. This is the lukewarm age and I am part of it. Hopefully someday I will go against the crowd. Procastination is the disease that is stopping me from doing what I am supposed to do.

Then I went to college. I took alot of science classes. Biology, Astronomy, Various Mathematics etc... I know these are supposed to make people into atheists but it had the oposite affect on me. Witnessing how complex the universe is convinced me that it cant all exist out of chance. I cant explain the nature of whatever creative force is responsible but I'm pretty sure one exists.

As far as your own beliefs, thats up to you

It's a shame. No offence ment but it is quite annoying when people can't explain somthing and then suddenly put it down to some sort of 'God' type thing. The complexity of the world can be explained by a 'random' set of values causing everything to react to each other causing complex systems to do stuff.