NationStates Jolt Archive

Democrats in the US House of Representatives, and one US Senator ( Barbara Boxer, CA ), have elected to contest the acceptance of Ohio's electoral votes in the Electoral College.

Democrats, of course, are saying that this is due to legitimate concerns about the validity of Ohio's election results.

Republicans, of course, are saying that this is nothing more than an attempt to embarass the President, since it cannot affect the outcome of the election.

Any discussion on this? Inquiring minds want to KNOW! ;)

I would say that it is a legitimate concern for a lot of people, but that the Democratic party is just being opportunistic by playing off of peoples worries and taking a shot at Republicans at the same time.

I would say that it is a legitimate concern for a lot of people, but that the Democratic party is just being opportunistic by playing off of peoples worries and taking a shot at Republicans at the same time.

Agreed.

I would say that it is a legitimate concern for a lot of people, but that the Democratic party is just being opportunistic by playing off of peoples worries and taking a shot at Republicans at the same time.

Agreed, it's being used for partisan politics, but there is a legitimate reason for concern. After all that nonsense in Florida in 2000, and also because of an unfortunate quote...

The voting machines in Ohio were made by Diebold, a large, wealthy and somewhat underregulated computer company. Diebold CEO Walden O'Dell, a GOP fundraiser, promised to deliver Ohio to Bush a couple of months before the election. The machines leave no 'paper trail'. They're generally frowned on because you can't run a manual recount. Just thought you should know. Nothing suspect about it. I'm not implying anything.

If the difference between Kerry and Bush were under 10,000 votes sure. But even after 2 recounts in Ohio the difference went from ~120,000 to ~118,000. All this is, is cry baby demorats [sic] (the ones who signed on to this farce) whining about how far they have fallen from power and grace in the eyes of the general US population.

The DNC needs to look at thme selves and decide if they want to become the mouth of far left, progressives, MoveOn.org, Michael Moore, George Soros's or really come back down to earth and meet the people of the US somewhere in the middle. I still love what MoveOn.org said last month. They said to keep your hands off the DNC, it belongs to us.

I really hope that MoveOn.org, et all; continue to believe that!!

Most of the voting "problems" came in districts that were run by Democrats. Democrats designed and approved the infamous "butterfly ballot". The Dems should be complaining about repeatedly shooting themselves in the foot.

I'm sure there are people that feel it is legitimate. I think it's a waste of time since the voting gap is so large.

I still love what MoveOn.org said last month. They said to keep your hands off the DNC, it belongs to us.

I really hope that MoveOn.org, et all; continue to believe that!!
They actually said that??? Where? When? Do you have a URL??

You know, the real problem with doing this sort of thing is that it always comes back to haunt you. Remember when the Democrats began contesting tooth and nail Republican nominees for Supreme Court Justice? Democrats were successful in torpedoing the nomination of Bork for SC Justice. When Clinton was elected President, a group of Republicans began using the same tactics against his nominees.

I suspect the Democrats are going to see this questioning of the legitimacy of the voting process in Ohio come back to haunt them as well the next time a close race goes to the Democratic candidate.

Unfortunately, the ultimate losers in all of this are the people. This sort of obstructionist tactic only serves to delay and delay, without acually accomplishing anything, in my opinion. I forsee increased cynicism among the voting populace, even though I didn't think it could get any worse. :headbang:

Most of the voting "problems" came in districts that were run by Democrats. Democrats designed and approved the infamous "butterfly ballot". The Dems should be complaining about repeatedly shooting themselves in the foot.
This is one of the contentions of the House Republicans. The Democrats are quick to point out that most of the problems happened in black precincts specifically. The "butterfly ballot" is irrelevant to this election - red herring, five point deduction for MM here. Failure to understand that state, local, and federal representatives are often quite far apart in motives, beliefs, practices, and political allies is also worth a substantial deduction.

What party those causing the problems belonged to (and I garuantee you the Democratic officials the Republicans are trying to blame aren't the only ones involved in any problems) isn't quite as important as acknowledging the problems exist and fixing them.

See here for details (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=387325). In general, the Republicans appear to be trying to simply silence dissent and hush up the problem. Even those who acknowledge problems are widespread don't seem interested in fixing them on that side of the aisle.

Well if we still follow "By the people for the people" there should be an investigation if the people want it.

It's funny to hear partisan politics used like a dirty word. If the roles were reversed, I am quite sure the Repubs would be doing the same thing....

You know, the real problem with doing this sort of thing is that it always comes back to haunt you. Remember when the Democrats began contesting tooth and nail Republican nominees for Supreme Court Justice? Democrats were successful in torpedoing the nomination of Bork for SC Justice. When Clinton was elected President, a group of Republicans began using the same tactics against his nominees.

I suspect the Democrats are going to see this questioning of the legitimacy of the voting process in Ohio come back to haunt them as well the next time a close race goes to the Democratic candidate.

Unfortunately, the ultimate losers in all of this are the people. This sort of obstructionist tactic only serves to delay and delay, without acually accomplishing anything, in my opinion. I forsee increased cynicism among the voting populace, even though I didn't think it could get any worse. :headbang:
The Democrats aren't the ones being obstructionist here - the Republicans are trying to obstruct the movement for verified voting - i.e., fully auditable, fully functional, fully honest elections. Review additional sources and materials to place this in larger context.

They actually said that??? Where? When? Do you have a URL??


Give me 30 mins and I'll find it for ya.

Oh and by BTW.

The Demos don't have to work to embarass the shrub, he does a good job on his own!


"As people do better, they start voting like Republicans...
...unless they have too much education and vote Democratic,
which proves there can be too much of a good thing."
- KARL ROVE:


"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents,
more and more closely, the inner soul of the people.
On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land
will reach their heart's desire at last and
the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

Well if we still follow "By the people for the people" there should be an investigation if the people want it.
Well, I'm one of the people too, and my own opinion on this is that it's a monumental waste of time and my taxes! If there need to be national standards for voting, then let's set up a comission to study the problem and make recommendations. Then we'll see who votes for the recommendations and who votes against them. :headbang:

Here ya go; some selected quotes and then the link.

MoveOn Blasts Terry McAuliffe

Liberal powerhouse MoveOn has a message for the "professional election losers" who run the Democratic Party: "We bought it, we own it, and we're going to take it back."

"For years, the party has been led by elite Washington insiders who are closer to corporate lobbyists than they are to the Democratic base," said the e-mail from MoveOn PAC's Eli Pariser. "But we can't afford four more years of leadership by a consulting class of professional election losers."

MoveOn Blasts Terry McAuliffe (http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/12/9/215826.shtml)

Well, I'm one of the people too, and my own opinion on this is that it's a monumental waste of time and my taxes! If there need to be national standards for voting, then let's set up a comission to study the problem and make recommendations. Then we'll see who votes for the recommendations and who votes against them. :headbang:
Unnoticed by the rest of the nation, and without the nation following our example on the federal level, North Carolina has set up a commitee to look into some of the very matters that proved problematic in the 2004 election.

Problems were widespread, and what certain Democrats and numerous independents are aiming for is exactly what you just ended up recommending - a national examination of the problem and bringing up solutions.

Which, curiously, you right now decry as a waste. What part of this is a monumental waste of time and taxes? The examination of the process? The recounts, bought with contributions from those concerned and set forth under law?

As a Libertarian I have to say that it is vital that we make certain that all votes are counted as accuratly as possible. However, the Dems couldn't give a rats fat ass about that. All they care about is discrediting the President and creating an issue to get people riled up about.
Believe me is the shoe was on the other foot, we would see Republicans whineing about the vote and Democrats acting incredulous. American politics has become a game to these people.

American politics has become a game to these people.

It's always been a game.....

As a Libertarian I have to say that it is vital that we make certain that all votes are counted as accuratly as possible. However, the Dems couldn't give a rats fat ass about that. All they care about is discrediting the President and creating an issue to get people riled up about.
Believe me is the shoe was on the other foot, we would see Republicans whineing about the vote and Democrats acting incredulous. American politics has become a game to these people.Speaking as an independent who has been dealing with many Democrats... no small number of Democratic voters on the ground are concerned about the votes being counted. In general, the Democratic party officials have at least paid lip service, starting before the election, to the concept of getting everybody's vote counted, while the Republicans focused on keeping effective turnout low. I was a bit disturbed to see those strategies so publicly.

Whether the movers and shakers up top at the Democratic party truly feel the same way... I have my doubts, and am inclined at times to agree with you there.

Democrats in the US House of Representatives, and one US Senator ( Barbara Boxer, CA ), have elected to contest the acceptance of Ohio's electoral votes in the Electoral College.

Democrats, of course, are saying that this is due to legitimate concerns about the validity of Ohio's election results.

Republicans, of course, are saying that this is nothing more than an attempt to embarass the President, since it cannot affect the outcome of the election.

Any discussion on this? Inquiring minds want to KNOW! ;)

Maybe a little of both. I'm not a big fan of the party system in it's current incarnation. But, with the presidents command of the english language, he doesn't need much help to be embarresed.

Unnoticed by the rest of the nation, and without the nation following our example on the federal level, North Carolina has set up a commitee to look into some of the very matters that proved problematic in the 2004 election.

Problems were widespread, and what certain Democrats and numerous independents are aiming for is exactly what you just ended up recommending - a national examination of the problem and bringing up solutions.

Which, curiously, you right now decry as a waste. What part of this is a monumental waste of time and taxes? The examination of the process? The recounts, bought with contributions from those concerned and set forth under law?
Sorry if I was unclear. I was trying to type too fast, I guess. What I meant to say was that the current process of a handful of Democrats holding up the electoral college process while having full awareness that it will accomplish nothing is a waste of time and taxpayers' money. Setting up a comission to determine just where the "go wrongs" are and what we need to do about them is definitely NOT a waste of either time or money. :)

BTW ... yayyy for NC! :D

Oh and by BTW.

The Demos don't have to work to embarass the shrub, he does a good job on his own!


"As people do better, they start voting like Republicans...
...unless they have too much education and vote Democratic,
which proves there can be too much of a good thing."
- KARL ROVE:


"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents,
more and more closely, the inner soul of the people.
On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land
will reach their heart's desire at last and
the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)


haha, man those are some great quotes.

Democrats in the US House of Representatives, and one US Senator ( Barbara Boxer, CA ), have elected to contest the acceptance of Ohio's electoral votes in the Electoral College.

Democrats, of course, are saying that this is due to legitimate concerns about the validity of Ohio's election results.

Republicans, of course, are saying that this is nothing more than an attempt to embarass the President, since it cannot affect the outcome of the election.

Any discussion on this? Inquiring minds want to KNOW! ;)
I'd have to say that the concerns are valid, though I will be honest and admit that many Democrats are using this opportunity to shoot at Republicans. I wish they wouldn't; we'd look a lot better if we were like me: calm, never insulting(or at least most of the time anyway.)

Sorry if I was unclear. I was trying to type too fast, I guess. What I meant to say was that the current process of a handful of Democrats holding up the electoral college process while having full awareness that it will accomplish nothing is a waste of time and taxpayers' money. Setting up a comission to determine just where the "go wrongs" are and what we need to do about them is definitely NOT a waste of either time or money. :)

BTW ... yayyy for NC! :D
Two hours isn't very long... and, as the House Democrats contended, they didn't have many other choices for bringing this problem to light in Congress.

obvious statement, but germaine to the topic:

Voting/election rules are up to the states.

are they not?

Nationalizing voting procedures/guidelines would take one checkmark from the "States' Rights" column and place it in the "Federal Rights" column.


History buffs, have at it!

Democrats in the US House of Representatives, and one US Senator ( Barbara Boxer, CA ), have elected to contest the acceptance of Ohio's electoral votes in the Electoral College.

Democrats, of course, are saying that this is due to legitimate concerns about the validity of Ohio's election results.

Republicans, of course, are saying that this is nothing more than an attempt to embarass the President, since it cannot affect the outcome of the election.

Any discussion on this? Inquiring minds want to KNOW! ;)

Are there legitimate concerns? Yes.

Are they the real reason that these particular people are complaining? Unlikely.

Are the concerns limited to Ohio? Absolutely not.

Is anything they do likely to affect the outcome of the election? Not really.

Are the Republicans probably hiding something? Absolutely.

Are the Democrats? Absolutely.

Are there legitimate concerns? Yes.

Are they the real reason that these particular people are complaining? Unlikely.

Are the concerns limited to Ohio? Absolutely not.

Is anything they do likely to affect the outcome of the election? Not really.

Are the Republicans probably hiding something? Absolutely.

Are the Democrats? Absolutely.
Surprisingly, I can't argue with any of the above! Amazing! :D

Legitimate concerns or just an attempt to embarass the President?
I didn't know he needs help doing that.

Surprisingly, I can't argue with any of the above! Amazing! :D

See? We don't *always* disagree! =)

The DNC needs to look at thme selves and decide if they want to become the mouth of far left, progressives, MoveOn.org, Michael Moore, George Soros's or really come back down to earth and meet the people of the US somewhere in the middle.
You speak as if the Democrat's support base fell to about 10%.

The Dems aren't far left. They're already in (or near) the middle. If they moved any farther right they might as well change their name to Republicans.

obvious statement, but germaine to the topic:

Voting/election rules are up to the states.

are they not?

Nationalizing voting procedures/guidelines would take one checkmark from the "States' Rights" column and place it in the "Federal Rights" column.


History buffs, have at it!
You are correct that the states elect representatives to the Electoral College according to their state laws. The House is free to set standards for the Electoral College (a national body) which the states may be made to conform with. A simple rule requiring a paper or verifiable trail rather than mere electronic summaries from the various EDs to certify a given rep's bona fides is not transgressing into the realm of states rights.

You are correct that the states elect representatives to the Electoral College according to their state laws. The House is free to set standards for the Electoral College (a national body) which the states may be made to conform with. A simple rule requiring a paper or verifiable trail rather than mere electronic summaries from the various EDs to certify a given rep's bona fides is not transgressing into the realm of states rights.

Actually, if we wanted to be truthful, we would have to admit that the people don't even have the right (constitutionally speaking) to vote for the members of the Electoral College. The method of choosing these voters is left up to the states. It is the state legislators who have chosen to give the vote to the people, and they will regulate that vote.

Unfortunately, they are idiots who think the cost of a printer is too much to ask for in making sure the votes are properly counted.

ironically, the opposite happened in Washington for the gubernatorial election. The Democrats won by probable cheating and then the Republicans used rarely-used legal tactics to attempt to delay the inevitable Democratic administration. So now Ohio and Washington suck

What I find interesting is that Senator Boxer is the ONLY senator to sign off on the complaint despite her Democrat collegaues speechifying in congress. If they are so upset, why didin't they join in the complaint? Sounds like sour grapes to me.

Democrats in the US House of Representatives, and one US Senator ( Barbara Boxer, CA ), have elected to contest the acceptance of Ohio's electoral votes in the Electoral College.

Democrats, of course, are saying that this is due to legitimate concerns about the validity of Ohio's election results.

Republicans, of course, are saying that this is nothing more than an attempt to embarass the President, since it cannot affect the outcome of the election.

Any discussion on this? Inquiring minds want to KNOW! ;)
Why can it affect outcome?

What is wrong with stopping corruption. How would it embarrass Bush ? Bush have something to hide?

Are there legitimate concerns? Yes.

Are they the real reason that these particular people are complaining? Unlikely.

Are the concerns limited to Ohio? Absolutely not.

Is anything they do likely to affect the outcome of the election? Not really.

Are the Republicans probably hiding something? Absolutely.

Are the Democrats? Absolutely.

*aplauds*

I think a big misconception that a lot of people are holding here is that the entire Democratic Party is in on this. They're not. In fact, I believe the Kerry people even looked into some sort of legal challenge to the vote counting in Ohio but decided that it wouldn't change the outcome.

I do admire those who stood up and challenged it, if only for their courage.

Besides, all but one was from the House. And with 435 members, unanimous party loyalty is next to impossible. There have been a lot of nutters in the House, including one Georgia Democrat who, if I am correct, often spoke that the September 11 attacks were faked by the Bush Administration. So not everyone in the Congress, especially the House, is going to be representative of the party at large.

(Aside: If you attempt to use the second-most-recent sentence to prove that all Democrats are nutters, I shall be forced to hit you over the head repeatedly with blunt context.)

That being said......


Most of the voting "problems" came in districts that were run by Democrats. Democrats designed and approved the infamous "butterfly ballot". The Dems should be complaining about repeatedly shooting themselves in the foot.

Not so fast! I happen to live in Palm Beach County, the very county where the butterfly ballot had its ignominous existence. The woman who came up with that ballot was one Teresa LaPore (a Democrat, though Supervisor of Elections is technically a nonpartisan office), and most county Democrats were all too happy to show her the door during the most recent election. In fact, Ron Klein, the local (Democrat) U.S. Representative who apparently harbored a very personal vendetta against LaPore, poured many thousands of his own dollars into the campaign of Arthur Anderson, a relatively little-known figure who ended up winning. Klein was also a very very vocal advocate of outfitting our wonderful electronic voting machines (punch-card machines are now illegal in Florida after the untold thousands of "chad" jokes in 2000) with printers to provide a "paper trail," trying everywhere he could but ultimately returning empty-handed.

(Fun fact: If I remember correctly, while publicly maintaing that the machines were perfectly safe, the Florida Republican Party send a letter to all members, urging them to vote via a paper absentee ballot.)

(I'll have to stop there; county politics makes me very dizzy and I can barely look at the weekly local politics column without getting a headache and all.)


There were a few minor problems locally, mostly long lines at early voting stations and absentee ballots getting lost in the mail. (I don't quite understand early voting myself, because if you can't vote on Election Day, you should have to use an absentee ballot. Easy.)

I think the President embarasses the President as it is, though he may not be aware of it.

The voting machines in Ohio were made by Diebold, a large, wealthy and somewhat underregulated computer company.

Actually, >95% of Ohio voted using paper ballots. There were a couple of counties with electronic machines, but those a) voted very similarly to the way the did in the last election, and b) do not contain enough votes to change the outcome anyway.

Not that you'd care, of course.

Democrats in the US House of Representatives, and one US Senator ( Barbara Boxer, CA ), have elected to contest the acceptance of Ohio's electoral votes in the Electoral College.


Dem's sour grapes?

ironically, the opposite happened in Washington for the gubernatorial election. The Democrats won by probable cheating and then the Republicans used rarely-used legal tactics to attempt to delay the inevitable Democratic administration. So now Ohio and Washington suck

Funny that you leave out the first step here.

First count: Repubs win gubernatorial election in WA, but by an insignificant amoung.

Second count: Amount goes down.

Third count: Box of ballots found hidden in a closet, count goes slightly to Democrat candidate.

Fourth count: Same as third. YAY! Finally something consistent!

Republicans begin claiming Democrat election fraud. Provisional ballots weren't checked out (they didn't mind this when they were seen as winning the election).

Still no winner.

Actually, if we wanted to be truthful, we would have to admit that the people don't even have the right (constitutionally speaking) to vote for the members of the Electoral College. The method of choosing these voters is left up to the states. It is the state legislators who have chosen to give the vote to the people, and they will regulate that vote.

Unfortunately, they are idiots who think the cost of a printer is too much to ask for in making sure the votes are properly counted.
Overall we concur. Although I don't think idiocy is at the heart of the lack of accountability but the will to manipulate through chicanery.

Funny that you leave out the first step here.

First count: Repubs win gubernatorial election in WA, but by an insignificant amoung.

Second count: Amount goes down.

Third count: Box of ballots found hidden in a closet, count goes slightly to Democrat candidate.

Fourth count: Same as third. YAY! Finally something consistent!

Republicans begin claiming Democrat election fraud. Provisional ballots weren't checked out (they didn't mind this when they were seen as winning the election).

Still no winner.

First, you need to inform yourself about what is going on in Washington before you comment on it. There was NEVER a fourth count. There was the original count and 2 recounts.

Here, in as brief a post as I can make, is what is going on in Washington. Why do I know, because I am involved in this process.

The Gubnatorial election results of the election's first count had Dino Rossi (R) elected by 261 votes. By state law, a recount, by machine, was required. During this recount King county found votes 3 times that they had "lost". Also during this time they DNC of King County were allowed to contact 900 voters who's signatures were missing from King County registration records. In less than 2 days they claimed to have contacted over 400 of these people. It has been reported by many, that the people who went to gather these signatures first asked who the person voted for. If it was Rossi, they said "good day" and left, if it was Gregoire they then informed them why they were there. This process should have invalidated the election right then and there, as it is no longer a recount of votes counted in the first election, but a new count because ballots had been added to the mix. Also the three times that ballots were found in King Country, followed reports from the State Elections Office that Rossi had picked up votes. The results of the first recount had reduced Rossi's victory to 42 votes. During this recount a person was fired from the King County recount staff for putting a Gregiore ballot thru the reader five times. There were many other reports of this event occuring in the King County counting facility.

According to State law there is the option of a third, this time manual, recount as long as the party asking for the recount pays the $750,000 for it. The WA Democratic Party asked for the recount and proceeded to ask for donations to fund the recount. When it appeared that they were going to fall short of that amount by the deadline John Kerry kicked in $200,000 and MoveOn.org kicked in $250,000. During this second recount, Rossi was again picking up votes. Six times reports from the Election office came out that Rossi had picked up votes, and six times King County "found" ballots. Any where from 22 to over 500. Washington's Republican Party went to court to stop the inclusion of these ballots as it would not be a recount, but a new count. They lost the suit in the Washington State Supreme Court and over 700 ballots were added to King County. This time Gregiore won by 129 votes.

It has now come to light that in King County there were over 3,500 votes cast than there are registered voters. In the top 5 counties the total was over 8,000 MORE ballots counted than registered voters. What is more amazing is that in some Eastside precincts, which are "Red", there were fewer ballots counted than actual voters who voted at polling places. This has been verified by comparing the signature book total to the amount of ballots counted. It has also come to light a number of the over 3,000 "provisional ballots" that were to be kept seperate from regular ballots at polling places so they could be verified before being counted, were placed in the scanner at polling places so the could be counted. King County has admitted this has occured and that they have NO IDEA how many "provisional ballots" were counted without being verified. More descrepancies have been discovered in King County, along with other counties, that show; dead people voted; convicted felons who have NOT had their right to vote restored voted, some of whom were in county jails or the State Penn at the time of the election; some people received multiple absentee ballots and sent them in which were counted; people who were inferm and incapable of voting cast and had their votes counted. People have registered many times using various spellings of their names i.e. John M. Doe, J. M. Doe, Jon M. Doe, John Mark Doe, Jon Mark Doe...etc and received and cast multiple ballots. There is also the possibility that more than 300 absentee ballots may have been signed by the same person. A handwritting expert hired by a private group has concluded that the signatures of over 300 ballots were signed by the same person.

Through all of this the Washington Demcratic Party have been singing the mantra of "Count EVERY Vote." Yet they have protested and managed to stop the counting of over 31,000 absentee military ballots.

Yesterday two private citizens filed challenges to the election to have it voided and a new one held. Today the Washington Republican Party is expected to file their challenge. According to state law, a challenge can be filed by anyone. There doesn't have to be proof of fraud either, just proof that shows there are enough ballots in question that would affect the outcome of the election. Of that there is no question. The margin of victory was 129 votes, in King County alone the figure of questionable ballots is over 3,500.

Right now it is not a question of who won or not. It is a question of: Do the people of Washington trust the various counties election office to properly register, run and count elections? According to various polls the answer to that question is a resounding NO!!!

Do I feel that the election office and officers of King and other counties are purposly trying to affect the outcome of the election? I want to believe no, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to do so. One thing is certain, King County Election Office has lost control of registration records, registration process, ballots, counting...etc.

Throughout all this the Republican Party has been demanding that rules governing elections in Washington are followed. The Democrats have been trying to change/alter the rules during the count. Republicans and Dino Rossi have been consistanly saying that ALL LEGAL ballots need to be counted, including the more than 31,000 absentee military ballots which the Democrats don't want counted.

The only way to resolve this issue and have a Gov that will not be seen as appointed instead of elected is to hold a new election. BTW the Democrats are fighting that tooth and nail, because polls throughout the state show that Gregiore would loose in a big way. Some numbers show a 75-25 advantage to Rossi.

Here ya go, from the Seattle P.I.;

As two citizens filed the first challenges to the endlessly contested governor's election yesterday, Secretary of State Sam Reed proposed a package of reforms aimed at averting such election chaos in the future.

Meanwhile, Dean Logan, King County's top elections official, added fuel to Republican efforts to overturn the 129-vote victory of Democrat Christine Gregoire. He said "somewhere in the range of 300" provisional ballots of unknown validity were wrongly fed into the county's vote-counting machines on Election Day.

While that number far exceeded Gregoire's margin of victory over Republican Dino Rossi, Logan said that statistically, it was highly unlikely that those questionable ballots could have changed the outcome of the race. "But I don't want to give people the impression that I don't think it's a serious issue," he added.

Attempts to embarass the President.

The Dems say people were "disenfranchised" because they had to wait in lines for too long and "their legs were tired". Meanwhile, voters in Afghanistan waited in lines for 18 hours for the privilege of voting.

According to the Democrats in Washington, an election is only legit if they win.

Dino Rossi and the Washington State Republican Party has just filed to contest the validity of this election.

Rossi stated that the only way he would take the office of Gov. is to hold a revote. He feels that to take office in any other way would cast a shadow over the Gov office.

Of course the Washington State Democratic Party and Christine Gregoire are calling this a waste of time and the idea of a revote is ludicrious. They are still refusing to count the 31,000 military absentee votes.

Dino Rossi and the Washington State Republican Party has just filed to contest the validity of this election.

Rossi stated that the only way he would take the office of Gov. is to hold a revote. He feels that to take office in any other way would cast a shadow over the Gov office.

Of course the Washington State Democratic Party and Christine Gregoire are calling this a waste of time and the idea of a revote is ludicrious. They are still refusing to count the 31,000 military absentee votes.

Out of curiosity, do you have a link for this "refusal to count absentee votes"?

I'm pretty sure that would've been reported somewhere if it is true.

Of course, what most people are not aware of is that, in most elections, the absentee votes aren't even touched. They are only counted in cases like the current WA gubernatorial election, in which there is a close race. I don't know about anyone else, but the fact that so many people's votes simply don't get counted bothers the hell out of me.

Out of curiosity, do you have a link for this "refusal to count absentee votes"?

I'm pretty sure that would've been reported somewhere if it is true.

Of course, what most people are not aware of is that, in most elections, the absentee votes aren't even touched. They are only counted in cases like the current WA gubernatorial election, in which there is a close race. I don't know about anyone else, but the fact that so many people's votes simply don't get counted bothers the hell out of me.

I'll get the link to you soon, but it has been reported in the papers, local that is. But it's not all absentee ballots, just those from overseas, many of which are from National Guard members serving in Iraq.

As far as your last statement, you couldn't be further than the truth, Here in WA over 60% of the vote was done by absentee and in Oregon that is the way they vote. Absetee ballots are and have always been counted regardless of the margin of victory. That is why in most states the ballot HAS to be postmarked by midnight of the election day. But absentee ballots have not never been counted.

In the case of Military absentee ballots there are a few factors that make them more suseptable to being late or the postmark being different from the actual date mailed. Personel who are deployed or in a combat zone do not need to place a stamp on their mail. Therefore it doesn't get canceled until it enters the US. Which could take weeks from the actual time of mailing. Also it doesnt help that counties have regularly sent out absentee ballots to military members late. esp. here in King ounty. There are reports and signed afidavits from servicemen and women that they did not receive their ballots until AFTER the elevtion was over. If Kng county maisled them out with the regular ballots then I could see that. I received mine 10 days before the election, the day after King county mailed it out. If they expected the ballot to reach service members in less than two weeks prior to the election then they need a lesson in mailing times.

But then again seeing as 75% of military members tend to vote Republican, I can see how the Democrat controlled Seattle City Council, King County Council and both State Houses and Gov would want to delay sending out ballots to military members as long as possible. BTW I am speaking from expirence about receiving ballots late. In the 1996, 1998, 2000 General elections I was deployed overseas on an Aircraft Carrier and I received ballots for all three of those elections anywhere from 1 day before to 2 weeks after. And the carrier is ALWAYS the first ship to get mail that comes to the Battle Group while we are underway.

Does anyone feel a little better about the probable cheating since it went different ways in different states? Since the winning probable cheaters are from different parties, the Washington situation partially cancels out the Ohio situation. But the voters get fucked either way.

Attempts to embarass the President.

The Dems say people were "disenfranchised" because they had to wait in lines for too long and "their legs were tired". Meanwhile, voters in Afghanistan waited in lines for 18 hours for the privilege of voting.

According to the Democrats in Washington, an election is only legit if they win.That wasn't the problem, or at least not the serious problem. The lines in blue precincts (about 3 hours and sometimes starting in the rain) were a lot longer than lines in purple precincts (about 1.5 hours), which were a lot longer than lines in red precincts (about 15 minutes). In the morning, the Democrats took that as good news because they thought it meant more Democrats were voting. By about 3:00 pm, their poll runners and poll watchers had visited enough polling places to figure out that the blue precincts had more registered voters per voting machine.

As far as your last statement, you couldn't be further than the truth, Here in WA over 60% of the vote was done by absentee and in Oregon that is the way they vote. Absetee ballots are and have always been counted regardless of the margin of victory. That is why in most states the ballot HAS to be postmarked by midnight of the election day. But absentee ballots have not never been counted.

And you are an expert on this....how?

I have been rather close to the election process and the truth is that election officials generally make the assumption that absentee ballots will be along the same lines as the general public. If there is already a large margin for the winner, they are not counted out of convenience.

And 60% of the vote was absentee? You can't throw out a completely ridiculous number like that without some sort of source.

But then again seeing as 75% of military members tend to vote Republican
Why is this? I have always wondered.

There are legitimate concerns that need to be addressed. You cant just continue to say "since the gap was so large, lets not address this now" because what will happen is you will end up having to wait until an election where it is very important to fix those problems. Then, you will have to scramble to figure out how to fix it quickly and it will require extensive litigation, and cries of unfairness for the next 4 years no matter who wins. Thats what happened in 2000 and people need to learn from their mistakes. The fact that the gap was large enough that it doesnt matter is a great reason to work on fixing these problems now rather than waiting until the problem is of critical importance.

Its like saying "well, it doesnt matter that the engine in my car overheated because I was so close to home anyway that it wasnt an issue". It does matter, next time you might be on a cross country trip when it happens. Fix it now, dont wait until its a huge problem.

Why is this? I have always wondered.

It probably has to do with the fact that, in the past 20 or so years anyways, people have believed that the Republican party funds the military more. This isn't always true (ie. there were quite a few cuts under Bush Sr. and the money often gets moved around, rather than move - ie. the current administration raising military budget, but lowering funding for VA hospitals and attempting to lower combat pay), but seems to be a general trend.

There is also the fact that the armed services tend to push for more conservative, "traditional" ideas.

Of course the Washington State Democratic Party and Christine Gregoire are calling this a waste of time and the idea of a revote is ludicrious. They are still refusing to count the 31,000 military absentee votes.
Nothing like disenfranchising the very people who guarantee freedom. :rolleyes:

Why is this? I have always wondered.
Um ... we value freedom more? :)

I did a bit of fact checking and it turns out that Forseral is at least partly right. The absentee ballot voting in Washington was 60% according to the Seattle Times.

During the hand recount, King County officials discovered hundreds of absentee ballots had been mistakenly rejected because of problems with how the voters' signatures had been scanned into a computer system. About 60 percent of Washington voters used absentee ballots in this election.

Seattle Times (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002129049_webrecount23.html)

On the other hand the military votes were counted (as far as I can tell from a few different news organizations) but complaints rage that many didn't get their ballots in time to have them turned in. This is actually a national phenomena this election and many overseas ballots were uncounted or never received, this needs to be fixed before the next election.

Out of curiosity, do you have a link for this "refusal to count absentee votes"?

I'm pretty sure that would've been reported somewhere if it is true.

Of course, what most people are not aware of is that, in most elections, the absentee votes aren't even touched. They are only counted in cases like the current WA gubernatorial election, in which there is a close race. I don't know about anyone else, but the fact that so many people's votes simply don't get counted bothers the hell out of me.
It bothers the hell out of me too! Perhaps one positive outcome from all of this focus on the voting process will be national standards for voting procedures ... nahhh! :headbang:

I STILL can't get over the lack of a national standard. As long as it isn't computer controlled, I'm all for it.

It bothers the hell out of me too! Perhaps one positive outcome from all of this focus on the voting process will be national standards for voting procedures ... nahhh! :headbang:

Yeah, I know you and I don't generally disagree on politics (so your vote probably would cancel mine out, in general), but I can't tell you how pissed off I was when I found out that absentee ballots (which in most states - although apparently not WA, in which nobody wants to vote normally - is primarily military and college students) are often not counted. I don't really care how close the margin is, the soldiers (and others, but especially the soldiers - many of whom joined up to ensure the freedom to vote in the first place) who are unable to make it to their polling place deserve to have their votes counted.

It probably has to do with the fact that, in the past 20 or so years anyways, people have believed that the Republican party funds the military more. This isn't always true (ie. there were quite a few cuts under Bush Sr. and the money often gets moved around, rather than move - ie. the current administration raising military budget, but lowering funding for VA hospitals and attempting to lower combat pay), but seems to be a general trend.

You are falling for the rhetoric of the left here Dem. The fact is that under GW the VA's budget has INCREASED by $40 Million. Again, has a recent retiree from the Navy I have been through the books to see just what I was entitled to and to make sure that the funding was going to be there for the programs. Concurrent receipt, which deals with disability pay, was passed under Bush, after being stalled by Clinton.

The "attempting to lower combat pay" is patently FALSE. Combat pay was $150.00 per month. This was pushed up to $225.00 per month for a short time. All that happened was it was restored to the ORIGINAL amount of $150.00. No decrease in combat pay was ever considered. Again the reason I know this is because I was receiving the $150.00 combat (or Hazardous Duty pay as it is rightly called) from the minute the ship crossed a certain line, to the minute we crossed back over. Also ALL pay while in the area is "NON-TAXABLE"

There is also the fact that the armed services tend to push for more conservative, "traditional" ideas.

You're partially right there. The military also see's Republicans as being more favorable in their attitude toward the Military. Under Bush 41 there were cuts, no mistake about it. Under Clinton these cuts continued, but at a higher amount. The difference between the two were the amount of the cuts and where they were made. During Reagan and Bush 41, we had no problem getting parts. If we needed it we ordered it and it came in. During the Clinton administration the parts procurement became so bad the we were taking parts off of returning ships so that we could fix deploying ships so they could go out to sea. The process to get parts had become so bad that we had to get permission from the Supply Officer to get the part and we had to justify why we needed it.

Yeah, I know you and I don't generally disagree on politics (so your vote probably would cancel mine out, in general), but I can't tell you how pissed off I was when I found out that absentee ballots (which in most states - although apparently not WA, in which nobody wants to vote normally - is primarily military and college students) are often not counted. I don't really care how close the margin is, the soldiers (and others, but especially the soldiers - many of whom joined up to ensure the freedom to vote in the first place) who are unable to make it to their polling place deserve to have their votes counted.

That sounds refreshing to hear that some one is as concerned about military votes as I am, But I have to ask you if you felt this way about FLA 2000. Because Gore tried to do the same thing there as Paul Berendt (DNC Chairmen in WA) and Christine Gregiore did do here. King County went to the State Supreme Court to have over 700 ballots added to the count because it no fault of the voters that their ballot didn't get counted. But when asked about applying the same standard to military ballots, which weren't the fault of the military member as to why they were received late, Dean Logan, the King County Election Officer quickly changed the subject when ever asked about, no matter who was interviewing him. Along with anybody in the WA Democtratic party hierchy. BTW in Oregon all voting is accomplished by absentee ballots.

You asked me why I know so much about this. Well I have been involved in the election process since the State Primary in Sep. Counting, observing, dertermining voter intent and researching trends for both the Republican Party and King County. I was asked to testify in 2 of the 3 cases that went in front of WA courts concerning the Gubnatorial election.

Again, at this point it does not matter who won. What matters is that in WA, esp. in King County the appearence of an inproperly counted election is rampant. There are documented cases of multiple votes from the same person, dead people voting, felons who have not had their right to vote restored voting, improperly handled provisional ballots, more ballots than registered voters, in some precincts more voters than there are accounted ballots, ballots enhanced in a way that breaks WA law, ballots that were found in unsecure places that were counted, ballots that had been counted more than once, among other lesser problems. Because the margin was 129 between the two candidates all of these problem are coming to light, which in a way is fortunate. Because if it hadn't been this close those problems would have never gotten as much attention as they have now.

WA state law states that election fraud DOES NOT have to be proven. Only the fact that there are enough ballots in question to affect the outcome of the election. There is, in "spades." In King county alone there is over 1500 ballots that appear to have been cast and counted by people who were not registered to vote. Not only that but a private group retained a hand writting expert and he has determined that it appears that at least 300 ballots cast and counted were signed by the same person.

I want to add, in all of these problems who those people voted for was never, and never will be revealed.

Right now the people in WA have lost confidence in the State's election process. The only way to restore it is to hold a new election with the proper controls in place to ensure that it is as fair as possible.

Someone asked about Ohio. Because the margin was so great between Bush and Kerry and there is no mathimatical way Kerry could win Ohio. Does that mean that the election process should not be looked at. Of course not. If there are questions/problems about the election process they should be taken seriously and looked into and corrected if there is a problem.

Nothing like disenfranchising the very people who guarantee freedom. :rolleyes:
What do you expect from Democrats? Respect for the military?

You are falling for the rhetoric of the left here Dem. The fact is that under GW the VA's budget has INCREASED by $40 Million. Again, has a recent retiree from the Navy I have been through the books to see just what I was entitled to and to make sure that the funding was going to be there for the programs. Concurrent receipt, which deals with disability pay, was passed under Bush, after being stalled by Clinton.

And yet the VA hospital at which many of the doctors I interact with work has seen a decrease in funding across the board. I think that, like many things, the government is being very tricky here. The fact that the budget shows a possible increase does not necessarily mean that the money is actually getting where it should. It also doesn't mean that said budget meets the current requirements.

That sounds refreshing to hear that some one is as concerned about military votes as I am, But I have to ask you if you felt this way about FLA 2000. [/quote]

Absolutely. If someone wishes to point out that absentee ballots are often late by no fault of the voter, this must be done so across the board. And any attempt to block specifically military votes is, in my opinion, especially disgusting.

What do you expect from Democrats? Respect for the military?

Why not? At least they aren't chickenhawks.

Why not? At least they aren't chickenhawks.

You're right. They are just plain chickens who would rather try to reason with people who would rather see you dead.

Yeah, I know you and I don't generally disagree on politics (so your vote probably would cancel mine out, in general), but I can't tell you how pissed off I was when I found out that absentee ballots (which in most states - although apparently not WA, in which nobody wants to vote normally - is primarily military and college students) are often not counted. I don't really care how close the margin is, the soldiers (and others, but especially the soldiers - many of whom joined up to ensure the freedom to vote in the first place) who are unable to make it to their polling place deserve to have their votes counted.
This is freakin' me out, man! I can't believe how often you and I seem to agree on shit here of late! It's fuckin' scary! Heh! :D